Speaker 1: I record this podcast on Gaetigo Country. I'd like to
Speaker 1: pay my respect to the traditional.
Speaker 2: Custodians and I'm recording o Urando Country, part of the
Speaker 2: Cooler Nation. Let's go.
Speaker 1: I know you're gonna dig this X like I've been
Speaker 1: given like an extra sprinkle of something.
Speaker 3: You've got layers, Yeah, I got layers.
Speaker 2: I was just thinking, I'm like, we're just such beautiful storytellers.
Speaker 1: You make a lot of sense to that girl. No,
Speaker 1: I'm done.
Speaker 2: Let's be too honest to go.
Speaker 1: Well, we've had her on first things first before, but
Speaker 1: welcome back the incredible male who is the co author
Speaker 1: of Brook and Mel's new book, Melseywood.
Speaker 2: So I've had there's a little ex bachelor, ex rugby
Speaker 2: league player, hot Ossie Laraken.
Speaker 1: Hunk of a man, hummingbird, No, I mean honey badger.
Speaker 2: Wrong guy is in your DM Mel, Would you like
Speaker 2: to explain to us please?
Speaker 3: You're not the only bachelor ex bachelor passion, not even me.
Speaker 1: Guys, Oh, we need the details because this is wild
Speaker 1: what's been happening.
Speaker 3: He's in my dms because I spent some time on TikTok,
Speaker 3: maybe giving him a bit of a growl like the
Speaker 3: aunties might off for you know.
Speaker 1: Not possibly calling him out, Yeah, giving a bit.
Speaker 3: Of a call out, maybe going a little bit viral
Speaker 3: for calling him out.
Speaker 2: Truly.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's play the video that we're talking about.
Speaker 3: As we all know, there's this BookTalk boy and he's
Speaker 3: a nice guy. Absolutely nobody is denying that. But he
Speaker 3: has already got a platform. He is an ex rugby
Speaker 3: league player, an ex bachelor and he had a lot
Speaker 3: of follows on Instagram before he arrived on BookTalk And
Speaker 3: if you've been on TikTok for a minute, you will
Speaker 3: know that he joined in April. And yesterday it was
Speaker 3: announced that the BookTalk Boy had signed a multiple deal
Speaker 3: with the Trea Publishing, which is an imprint of Simon
Speaker 3: and Schuster. There is a queer woman of color called Zekway.
Speaker 3: She recently also signed a multi book deal with a
Speaker 3: Trea Publishing and guess what, she has not had the
Speaker 3: same red carpet treatment that Luke has had. Aside from
Speaker 3: a couple of announcements, we've heard crickets about this one.
Speaker 3: There's mean, no hype, no marketing push, no big pr
Speaker 3: And why why is that so? Because the publishing industry
Speaker 3: does not treat everyone equally.
Speaker 2: For context, guys, So this hotbook dot guy throws out
Speaker 2: this video gets one hundred and something thousand likes and
Speaker 2: a lot of people talking about it, but Meles called
Speaker 2: him out.
Speaker 3: I have yeah, I know that there are a lot
Speaker 3: of people that were kind of upset when he first
Speaker 3: went mega viral. I suppose in terms of Australian book talk,
Speaker 3: which seems a really weird thing to be talking about
Speaker 3: going byral But I.
Speaker 1: Can understand why he went viral though. Sexy man talking
Speaker 1: about literature. I mean, that's a massive turn on. I'd
Speaker 1: be sharing a bed, fucking They say what's the sexiest
Speaker 1: thing in a man's hand? Some say, some say a vacuum,
Speaker 1: I say a book.
Speaker 3: He didn't even have the book in his hand. Maddie
Speaker 3: reading one fucking book in his life and he gets
Speaker 3: a hundred and no.
Speaker 1: I've literally got girl. It sounds like me with my
Speaker 1: seventy five hard challenge. Every time I read those ten
Speaker 1: pages of the book, I think I'm better than everything.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I am the smartest man in the world.
Speaker 3: Bro.
Speaker 1: When I close that book, I'm like, Wow, I'm so intelligent,
Speaker 1: and I can.
Speaker 2: Doubs On this book. Top guy seriously has been like
Speaker 2: like girls literally throwing and like accusing it as a
Speaker 2: as a like to date him pretty much right, like
Speaker 2: putting their dating profile like Hi, I'm blah blah blah,
Speaker 2: this is where you can find me, or like some
Speaker 2: girls like wow, I'm all of a sudden interested in books.
Speaker 2: This is frustrating as fuck, and it's funny, but it's
Speaker 2: frustrating because it's like one guy reads one book and
Speaker 2: literally girls are throwing themselves at you.
Speaker 1: It's like asks you to you know what the patriarchy is,
Speaker 1: You should just send them this. So Mel tell us
Speaker 1: about the d MS you obviously called this book talk
Speaker 1: viral video.
Speaker 2: Go you girlfriend, like you know, you're not there for
Speaker 2: your own you know, dating intentions. You're like, fuck, this
Speaker 2: is a great opportunity to message him.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well actually he messaged me.
Speaker 2: Oh he slid into her DM.
Speaker 3: He slid into my DMS because I was on someone
Speaker 3: else's video saying, oh, there's no way this man will
Speaker 3: want to talk about books with me, because she'd made
Speaker 3: a video as well, saying similar sorts of things that
Speaker 3: the comments were gross, and then women were also coming
Speaker 3: for each other because of course when there's a man involved,
Speaker 3: we are all over again.
Speaker 1: Fuck you now, yeah, great words, they're coming for each other. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: all right, we're going back to the note. Not so
Speaker 1: PG days. No, But I want to know what made
Speaker 1: you like what was the first message you sent him?
Speaker 1: And what has that conversation entailed.
Speaker 3: He just messaged me and said he'd like to talk
Speaker 3: about books with me. And I went back to him
Speaker 3: and I said, look, I'm not actually mad at you
Speaker 3: for getting followers. It's more the fact that the people
Speaker 3: there are so many people on book talking like to
Speaker 3: talk myself up. For example, I being an Aboriginal person
Speaker 3: and on the internet in any form is not a picnic.
Speaker 2: So I was literally writing down that comment you said
Speaker 2: about I want to talk books with you. I was like,
Speaker 2: great pick.
Speaker 3: Up, Yeah, aweso great, I'll put it in my keep going.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So I said, I wasn't really mad at him. It
Speaker 3: was more about the people that saw him pretty man
Speaker 3: oka accent in a tractor talking about books, and he
Speaker 3: got all of those followers, and he's getting attention, and
Speaker 3: that means he has influence on BookTalk. And we know
Speaker 3: like to get nerdy with you. We know studies show
Speaker 3: that BookTalk and social media, but book talk in particular
Speaker 3: is the biggest book selling influence in the world at
Speaker 3: the moment. So if you can get picked up on
Speaker 3: book talk and go viral, then your book is going
Speaker 3: to sell out. You will get book deals, you will
Speaker 3: get all of the sorts of things that authors really want.
Speaker 3: Unfortunately for someone like me and like it does sound
Speaker 3: a bit like sour grapes, but I get in. I
Speaker 3: get furious when people have a platform and then all
Speaker 3: the books that they are talking about are the popular ones,
Speaker 3: the ones that already have shelf space, endemics, the ones
Speaker 3: that already have thousands upon thousands of readers, that have
Speaker 3: worldwide deals, which are oftentimes problematic storylines or from problematic authors,
Speaker 3: whereas there's every single indigenous author out there is scrabbling
Speaker 3: around to tell our stories and get them out there,
Speaker 3: and we don't get that much attention, Like it takes
Speaker 3: a lot of energy to get one booktoker to hold
Speaker 3: your book up on BookTok and say this was a
Speaker 3: good book, go and buy it. In Australia, our market
Speaker 3: is so small. So it was just it was more
Speaker 3: that he'd gotten the influence that I have sort of
Speaker 3: craved because I know what I want to do with
Speaker 3: that influence, which is educate and sell our stories. And
Speaker 3: you know, by if you know, the trickle down effect
Speaker 3: of that is that then kids like the kids that
Speaker 3: book works with at school will be able to see
Speaker 3: more Indigenous authors, more Indigenous stories, and be able to
Speaker 3: dream of maybe telling those stories in the future. And
Speaker 3: it will be easy for them because I see it
Speaker 3: as my responsibility to make way for the next lot
Speaker 3: of people coming up. So I was furious at the followers,
Speaker 3: but I also said to him in the DMS when
Speaker 3: he said, I'd love to talk about books with you,
Speaker 3: and I was like, great, here is your reading list
Speaker 3: and tell and I'm really I actually am quite good
Speaker 3: at finding recommendations. If someone says I like you, then
Speaker 3: finding something else for someone to pick up. So my
Speaker 3: biggest area of expertise and interest is romance. But I
Speaker 3: can tell this guy that he should pick up a
Speaker 3: fantasy book by say Lisa Fuller or Lista Rose or
Speaker 3: someone like that. So he said, to his credit, he
Speaker 3: has said he will pick them up. And then I
Speaker 3: went on and did a big recommendation video and tagged
Speaker 3: him in it. And we'll see what happens. But I
Speaker 3: think that it's just that so many people are throwing
Speaker 3: around these likes and follows and they're worth nothing to
Speaker 3: someone who maybe already has a platform, who's maybe you know,
Speaker 3: like him, has developed his platform by being on the Bachelor,
Speaker 3: by being a rugby player, by all of those sorts
Speaker 3: of things tangently. And then there's the rest of us.
Speaker 3: Who is our actual job to be on these social
Speaker 3: platforms scrambling around for my you know, huge three thousand followers.
Speaker 3: You know, it's just it gets really frustrating.
Speaker 1: Well, let's take this notion and put him to the side.
Speaker 1: Enough talking about hunk book talk man, Let's talk about you. Well,
Speaker 1: I want to know, you know, where are you from?
Speaker 1: Who's your mob Let our listeners give a little bit
Speaker 1: of insight into your journey as a writer.
Speaker 3: Yeah sure. So my name smells Saywood and I'm a
Speaker 3: big and ball and Woka Walker woman. So my people
Speaker 3: are from around gumd Windy Way, which is on the
Speaker 3: Queensland New South Wales border and Woka Walker people. It's
Speaker 3: a big area up in Queensland. But my grandmother specifically
Speaker 3: was from Gainder, which is a little town sort of
Speaker 3: northwest of Marborough. Uh and so up in North Queensland.
Speaker 3: So yeah, that's where my people are from. But I
Speaker 3: and I live in just outside of Brisbane, in a
Speaker 3: little city called Ipswich, which Brook has been to visit.
Speaker 2: Now love Ipswich.
Speaker 1: What do you think of Ipswich, Bro.
Speaker 2: I actually really liked it. I was like, this is
Speaker 2: I don't know, it just kind of reminded me a
Speaker 2: little bit like Perth in a sense. It's like quite
Speaker 2: small and like, yeah, I don't know. I just laid back, Yeah,
Speaker 2: laid back by a lot of a lot of the Yeah, yeah, yeah, a.
Speaker 3: Lot of mob. It's a it's a it's a really
Speaker 3: great place to be if you come to Brisbane. We're
Speaker 3: just thirty minutes west and it's a nice place to visit.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I live in Ipswich, but my day job is as
Speaker 3: an academic at the University of Queensland. So I teach
Speaker 3: about the writing and publishing industry and that's where my
Speaker 3: background is. I used to be a book editor. I
Speaker 3: used to work at actually book and my publisher, yeah.
Speaker 2: She was used to work at HarperCollins, who obviously if
Speaker 2: you know, I've signed with them with their books that
Speaker 2: we've we've created and my memoir. But they're great. I mean,
Speaker 2: I don't know what it was like to work for them,
Speaker 2: but I love getting paid by them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So yeah, I worked there for a little while,
Speaker 3: but then I went into into academia and book publishing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're writing a book.
Speaker 3: We've written a book.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I've gone back in time. Girl, You've done it.
Speaker 1: It's published, it's out, I promise.
Speaker 2: I'm having deja vu a little bit because we had
Speaker 2: we've been in studio before, we have, and it was
Speaker 2: in Perth, which was so crazy because we went for
Speaker 2: the Barbie premiere. So I feel like I obviously I
Speaker 2: spent so much time with you and getting to know
Speaker 2: you and I have this relationship with you. But for
Speaker 2: the listeners, like this has been such a journey for
Speaker 2: you of writing. You've published three books. So You've got Burn,
Speaker 2: which was your first, and it's about a young indigenous
Speaker 2: boy who lights fires, which you would love to do.
Speaker 3: What well, I would love to see it made into
Speaker 3: a TV series. Actually, I think that's my.
Speaker 2: Who would you cast? Can I ask who would you
Speaker 2: cast to be the main carriage?
Speaker 3: So hard because you think about how long it takes,
Speaker 3: like both of you know how long it takes to
Speaker 3: get a film up and running. All the kids that
Speaker 3: you would pick because like Andrew is seventeen, sixteen, seventeen,
Speaker 3: and so all of the people that you would peak
Speaker 3: for it are going to be in they're like thirties.
Speaker 3: Probably matter what today the way.
Speaker 2: You Okay Thomas, whether or would be a fabulous don't
Speaker 2: you recommend it? You should read this book. It's amazing.
Speaker 2: And then you wrote a romance novel. I did, yes,
Speaker 2: give us a little bit of insight into that romance novel.
Speaker 3: So it's called Love Unleashed, and it's about a big
Speaker 3: and bull girl called Brinn who grows up fairly similarly
Speaker 3: to me on the north side of Brisbane and wants
Speaker 3: to go to New York to work for a big
Speaker 3: literary magazine or the publishing industry. And so when she
Speaker 3: finishes UNI, she gets on a plane and heads off
Speaker 3: to New York and tries to get this job, but
Speaker 3: everything sort of falls apart for her and she ends
Speaker 3: up working in a doggy daycare. So it's kind of
Speaker 3: cute and funny, but it's more a romantic comedy that's
Speaker 3: you know, things don't magically work out, which I think
Speaker 3: was a little bit more realistic when you're a black
Speaker 3: fellow reading a book where someone might go off to
Speaker 3: a big city where you don't sort of magically have.
Speaker 2: Money fantasy well that you yeah, yeah, it's sort of
Speaker 2: a happy ending kind of It does have a happy ending, absolutely,
Speaker 2: but it doesn't sort of work out the way that
Speaker 2: you would expect it to in a rom com You know,
Speaker 2: she should have got the job and had the kind
Speaker 2: of carry Bradshaw life.
Speaker 3: But she doesn't really get that, but she gets good stuff.
Speaker 3: It does work out in the end.
Speaker 1: What inspired you to have that reality aspect to it?
Speaker 1: Is it so that mob felt like the story they
Speaker 1: were reading maybe they could connect more deeply to Yeah.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, it was a big So. The funny thing about
Speaker 3: this book was that it was my PhD, which people
Speaker 3: don't actually realize that you can write a book. But
Speaker 3: it was eighty percent of this big academic work that
Speaker 3: took me four years to do, and the book was
Speaker 3: the main part of it. And so what I was
Speaker 3: trying to do, like in academic worlds, you're trying to
Speaker 3: answer a question, and my question was a lot around.
Speaker 3: Is the publishing industrry ready for a book with an
Speaker 3: aboriginal heroine that doesn't follow all those typical things but
Speaker 3: still has the happily ever after, which is critical for
Speaker 3: a romance book. And so Brinn is aboriginal, she's queer,
Speaker 3: she's fat. She comes from a family that is made
Speaker 3: up a little bit differently. Her mom had passed away.
Speaker 3: She lives with her stepdad and her half brother, but
Speaker 3: of course we don't say things like half brother, right,
Speaker 3: it's just her little brother she's got. One of her
Speaker 3: best friends is her sister cousin, and so she has
Speaker 3: this really strong connection back home. So she's not running
Speaker 3: away from anything, she's running towards things. But also I
Speaker 3: love that vision, yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that and
Speaker 3: her mum, and it was her mom's dream for her
Speaker 3: to go to New York and do those things. So
Speaker 3: she's kind of fulfilling her mum's wishes as well to
Speaker 3: go over there. But yeah, and then she discovers things
Speaker 3: about herself while she's there. And I think oftentimes, and
Speaker 3: I think, when you're reading a book where someone goes overseas,
Speaker 3: their dreams come true and they want to stay overseas
Speaker 3: and everything magically works out. And I think for MOB
Speaker 3: that's a bit more complicated, right, Like it is possible
Speaker 3: to live overseas and enjoy living overseas, but very far. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's far, and we are so deeply connected. Like I
Speaker 3: often think about you Brook, you know, when you're not
Speaker 3: having a good time, going home is really important for
Speaker 3: you and being on country and that is recharging and
Speaker 3: things like that. So it was it was stuff like
Speaker 3: that that I thought about her, you know, feeling that
Speaker 3: string that connects you home.
Speaker 2: It's also like, you know, New York is like you know,
Speaker 2: something that we see quite often on our TVs, and
Speaker 2: it kind of does feel a bit of a fantasy
Speaker 2: and not real. So when you think of New York,
Speaker 2: you're like, oh, like, I could never. And I think
Speaker 2: that's the narrative or like the story. A lot of
Speaker 2: MOB actually tell themselves a lot if they don't feel
Speaker 2: like it's achievable, and I think they constantly will be like,
Speaker 2: oh no, I could never, Yeah, never, I could never
Speaker 2: do that. I could never go there. And I think
Speaker 2: it's when you start believing in yourself and your self
Speaker 2: worth is so high, you start believing that anything is possible,
Speaker 2: and just getting on a plane as possible. Because I
Speaker 2: kept telling myself about New York Maddie knows this. I
Speaker 2: was like, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it,
Speaker 2: and then I just fucking did it. Yeah, and I
Speaker 2: was like, this is the best thing I ever did.
Speaker 3: I came back.
Speaker 2: It's so crazy. I came back to myself more so
Speaker 2: in New York than I actually ever have in some
Speaker 2: ways on country. I know that sounds really weird, but
Speaker 2: when I'm on country, it's like about rest. But when
Speaker 2: I'm in another country by myself, it's liberation. It's like
Speaker 2: doing something that's you don't think is possible and then
Speaker 2: you're doing it and it's crazy. So I really connect
Speaker 2: with Brin's story because it's like she's just doing the thing. Yeah,
Speaker 2: she's just doing the thing. And I think we need
Speaker 2: to tell our young people just do the thing right.
Speaker 2: And I know that sounds so simple, like it's just
Speaker 2: so needed. So like our book, A good kind of trouble,
Speaker 2: a lot of people think, oh wow, that's what is it?
Speaker 2: Like they're intrigued, which is great. It also kind of
Speaker 2: sucks that sometimes you have to put a cover that's
Speaker 2: so click baity to get people enticed to.
Speaker 1: Do it, right, Yeah, how could you come up with
Speaker 1: that title?
Speaker 2: Well, we just wrote the story and then we're kind
Speaker 2: of like like, well, Stella's bad news in some sense,
Speaker 2: and it's like.
Speaker 3: It is a chapter title as well, which I completely
Speaker 3: forgot about when we were having a conversation about what
Speaker 3: it was going to be called, Like, I don't I
Speaker 3: don't know. I was like Jamie, Yeah, well we had
Speaker 3: Jamie and Stella. It said Jamie and Stellar book one
Speaker 3: all the time the whole time we were writing it.
Speaker 2: So it's kind of crazy because like now we're kind
Speaker 2: of coming up with the next one, and it's like
Speaker 2: do we stay on the line of like a good
Speaker 2: kind of something else or do we completely change it?
Speaker 2: But I like consistency, so I'm like, we need to
Speaker 2: come up with something else. But it's a different point of.
Speaker 3: View, A bad kind of good? Did man just do it?
Speaker 2: Did you just give up?
Speaker 3: What is it?
Speaker 1: A bad kind of good? People like, wait, this is confusing,
Speaker 1: but I like it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're like, what, like, but.
Speaker 2: It's it's something for our young people. Yeah, it's as
Speaker 2: much as it's for melan I to to love and
Speaker 2: to care and to nurture. It's the same time, it's
Speaker 2: just for young people to read and see themselves and
Speaker 2: to feel seen, right, And I think we're going to
Speaker 2: see that at my work, which is myts which is
Speaker 2: with the young Indigenous kids that travel from home their
Speaker 2: community to Melbourne to get an education. Now, this our
Speaker 2: second book, is kind of the Mits experience, but it's
Speaker 2: from Stella's point of view, which is the good kind
Speaker 2: of trouble who comes to town and Jamie's flips Jamie's world.
Speaker 2: So it's crazy because like when making this story, but
Speaker 2: it's so interwoven into like and so connected with real experiences.
Speaker 2: It's crazy to think, like these young kids will read
Speaker 2: this and then just understand that this could be a
Speaker 2: thing that they can actually.
Speaker 1: Do, which is crazy. Young girls admits do they read?
Speaker 1: Have you seen a culture of reading at the school?
Speaker 2: Yeah, every Tuesday morning we do reading Hour, so from
Speaker 2: like eight thirty to nine or like eight fifteen to
Speaker 2: nine we read with the kids. And this is to
Speaker 2: encourage obviously their literature and numerous as well, but it's
Speaker 2: just to like have that first thirty minutes of school
Speaker 2: where they get to kind of have their own time,
Speaker 2: just you know, reading books or they read with one
Speaker 2: of the teachers. But the material that they're reading is
Speaker 2: you know, like a diary of a wimpy kid Captain Underpants.
Speaker 2: They're quite comical, so they're like not they're actual like comics,
Speaker 2: not real reading. And that's the kind of thing that
Speaker 2: you know, because it might because they're behind in their
Speaker 2: like literacy, but it's not to say that they can't
Speaker 2: learn so quickly, like I've seen these kids evolve very
Speaker 2: very quickly. Yeah, with just the muscle memory of reading
Speaker 2: every single day. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I do a lot of school visits. So my first
Speaker 3: book Burn because it's got a young person in it,
Speaker 3: I actually get to go all over the country and
Speaker 3: talk to kids at schools. And my favorite school is
Speaker 3: in Queensland. It's also in Ipswich, which is also an
Speaker 3: indigenous school. It's an indigenous independent school as a school
Speaker 3: course is it is called Himbi Yumba. Yeah, it's a
Speaker 3: really nice school. I enjoy going to visit. There have
Speaker 3: been a couple of times now and just going in
Speaker 3: the classroom and seeing the kids that this book and
Speaker 3: the book that Brooke and I wrote a good kind
Speaker 3: of trouble is for means so much and Burn is
Speaker 3: probably a little bit higher than the literacy level of
Speaker 3: some of the ones that I go in and see.
Speaker 3: But they love seeing themselves on the page. They love
Speaker 3: seeing that they can relate to things, and they give
Speaker 3: it a red hot go. And then I still get
Speaker 3: these beautiful emails from their teacher where they've done an
Speaker 3: assignment to write a character that is out of Burn,
Speaker 3: and many of them choose Andrew the main character to
Speaker 3: extend his story out. And their understanding of where this
Speaker 3: kid comes from is so much more nuanced and mature
Speaker 3: than a lot of the adult readers, just because it
Speaker 3: is based in their experience. And you know, the original
Speaker 3: experience is not the same.
Speaker 1: No, absolutely, it's different. I wanted to ask you, Mel,
Speaker 1: you know you've been working with book now for a
Speaker 1: little while. What is that relationship look like? Has it
Speaker 1: evolved over time? Is that like a group project at us?
Speaker 1: It's like, Nah. What I mean is like give insight
Speaker 1: into your dynamic as writers and collaborating because not every
Speaker 1: author has the opportunity to collaborate. And I think it's
Speaker 1: really powerful that two First Nations women are working together
Speaker 1: and putting out these books. So what does that look
Speaker 1: like and how has that been for you both?
Speaker 2: Well, I'm so glad that I in the start, when
Speaker 2: I was signing, I guess with Harper that I wanted
Speaker 2: to collaborate. I didn't want to just do something solely
Speaker 2: one because I'm not obviously the most experienced writer, Like
Speaker 2: I wrote my memoir, but mostly it was voice recordings
Speaker 2: and getting that story down and that's quite factual. But
Speaker 2: in terms of narrative writing, like I'm my strength is
Speaker 2: just telling and orally, so I obviously knew my strengths
Speaker 2: and I wanted to collaborate with someone who had a
Speaker 2: similar vision really pretty much, and like it was kind
Speaker 2: of like we laugh about it now because obviously we
Speaker 2: do talks and together about the books, but we say,
Speaker 2: like it was kind of like a book Tinder, like
Speaker 2: we kind of got, you know, we swiped a few
Speaker 2: times and then we're like, boom compatible.
Speaker 3: If only Tinder was so successful.
Speaker 2: Oh no, we're gonna go two years three, Well, actually
Speaker 2: so much longer. Yes, So we've known each other since
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two. Yeah, I've come across your content in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, when your name was sort of put
Speaker 2: and with that first meeting like together was actually probably
Speaker 2: one of my favorite memories of ours. We sat in
Speaker 2: my back terrace and we just talked for hours.
Speaker 3: Yeah, supposed to just be a coffee. We'd never we
Speaker 3: texted a bit, but we hadn't met before, so we're
Speaker 3: supposed to just be a coffee. I was in Melbourne
Speaker 3: for a couple of days, had a few had some
Speaker 3: free time, headed over to Brooks, so you just haven't
Speaker 3: have a coffee and work out what the plan was.
Speaker 3: And I think brook was dropping me back at my
Speaker 3: hotel like six pm.
Speaker 2: It was so late.
Speaker 1: That's wonderfact.
Speaker 2: It's like a five hour day. Yeah, like what they say, Yeah,
Speaker 2: a date that didn't didn't end. And I think our
Speaker 2: friendship has just evolved from you know, I think that
Speaker 2: instant sort of connection, and I think it's really hard
Speaker 2: to make friendships like that. It can be. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: think even if regardless if we weren't working together, I
Speaker 2: think we still would have been such great friends.
Speaker 3: I think so yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think like over time there's not been
Speaker 2: a point in our work relationship or even our friendship
Speaker 2: that we've not supported one another. I think I think
Speaker 2: that's the best thing about a collaborative process. We both
Speaker 2: also say like we would if anyone gets the opportunity
Speaker 2: to collaborate, Yeah, the best thing.
Speaker 3: It's so much fun. And you're right, Maddie, so many
Speaker 3: writers don't get the chance to do that. But how
Speaker 3: nice it is not only to imagine that story together,
Speaker 3: but also to go out and talk about it together.
Speaker 3: And we've been waiting for it for a while, Like
Speaker 3: we did when we were in Perth for the Barbie
Speaker 3: premiere a few years ago, we did talk about it.
Speaker 3: This actually being on this podcast was probably our first
Speaker 3: public actually about it together. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and so
Speaker 3: we did. We we have talked about it to people separately,
Speaker 3: but actually just getting booked to go on writers festivals
Speaker 3: together and sharing the stage with someone like I. Both
Speaker 3: of us have done a lot of these festivals with
Speaker 3: our books beforehand, and they're so scary and isolated and isolating.
Speaker 3: You walk into these rooms sometimes, as you know writers,
Speaker 3: we have our heroes in those rooms, and you walk
Speaker 3: into the author green room and I think someone really
Speaker 3: famous is there, and you I kind of lose my
Speaker 3: mind a little bit and think what am I am?
Speaker 3: I allowed to be here? It's weird that I'm here,
Speaker 3: but walking into those spaces having someone that is a
Speaker 3: close friend with you just orderomatically makes you more relaxed
Speaker 3: because of someone like yeah, if I'm I'm having a
Speaker 3: bit of a meltdown, then books there for me.
Speaker 2: And yeah, it's lovely likewise, and you know, I think
Speaker 2: we're both quite experienced in our industries in you know,
Speaker 2: like I guess I've never done book festivals, and Mels
Speaker 2: all over it, and I like rely on her in
Speaker 2: those cases to explain, you know, who's who, and like
Speaker 2: so I understand it for our you know, for our
Speaker 2: book and like vice versa about who's who. But Mel's
Speaker 2: all over it in terms of influence the world, Like
Speaker 2: must admit she knows stuff before I actually do. And
Speaker 2: I'm like, how the hell. I'm like, girl, She like
Speaker 2: she's updating me on stuff and I'm like, oh fuck,
Speaker 2: I have no idea what is going on. We We're
Speaker 2: both looking each other like the Jojo see world drama
Speaker 2: what And it's just so nice because like I don't know,
Speaker 2: it's a work relationship turn friendship turn into family. I think,
Speaker 2: like that's the best way to describe it. And I
Speaker 2: think we're hoping. Yeah, we're hoping that we continue the
Speaker 2: book writing. We would love obviously our book a good
Speaker 2: kind of Trouble to be a sequel, something that stays
Speaker 2: around for a little while and we can kind of
Speaker 2: keep that legacy of writing together until we're old and
Speaker 2: gray and then we're like, oh, okay, we can't write
Speaker 2: about young.
Speaker 1: Well I want to ask you both, what is it
Speaker 1: that you want, you know, both Blackfellows but also non
Speaker 1: Indigenous Mob to take away from this book once they
Speaker 1: read it? And is it specifically for young people or
Speaker 1: any ages can tackle this book?
Speaker 2: Any age can read anyone. Anyone would love it.
Speaker 3: We've both had lots of people come up to us,
Speaker 3: adults come up to us and say, this is the
Speaker 3: book that I wish I'd had when I was a kid. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it really really is. And it's because it's not you
Speaker 3: write it is a book for MOB. But and that
Speaker 3: is our probably you know, like if your heart's on Mob,
Speaker 3: that's who our first audience is all the time. But
Speaker 3: it's also a book about queer young people and queer
Speaker 3: young people who are just out at school. Like there's
Speaker 3: not it's not a coming out story. It is Jamie
Speaker 3: is the only out kid at their country school, and
Speaker 3: so it's it's that story, you know, like where maybe
Speaker 3: maybe she is a little bit brave to be the
Speaker 3: only one out a huge school, but also she is
Speaker 3: showing that it is okay to be that way. And
Speaker 3: I guess that's no one sees different no one, no
Speaker 3: one sees her differently. She's still a deadly footy player,
Speaker 3: she's still really popular in all of those things. It's
Speaker 3: just this thing about her and I think that's kind
Speaker 3: of how we all want to be right like that,
Speaker 3: It's just part of our identity, not our whole identity.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I definitely, you know, connect with that on
Speaker 2: so many levels. But I also think like it the
Speaker 2: book kind of shows other things that we should normally,
Speaker 2: which is like fine family dynamics. Like Maddie and I
Speaker 2: know this quite well, is that our family doesn't always
Speaker 2: aren't always blood and they're not always the most either
Speaker 2: reliable or they might not show as like parental figures
Speaker 2: in our life, but we love them dearly. There's still
Speaker 2: so much love there. Or our dynamic is that we
Speaker 2: stayed with aunties and uncles and that's what sort of
Speaker 2: Jamie does, is that she stays with her uncle and Annie,
Speaker 2: and she has little ones which is her sister's children
Speaker 2: and like or her cousin's children, sorry Treasure, and it's
Speaker 2: like that's the dynamic we grew up in. It's not
Speaker 2: that real conventional nuclear family, which I think is more realistic.
Speaker 2: I know we love books to you know, escapeism and fantasy,
Speaker 2: but I think sometimes it's nice showing the real parts
Speaker 2: and the real actual dynamics and the truth of that
Speaker 2: because I think people like to feel, want to want
Speaker 2: to feel seen, but also want to feel like what
Speaker 2: they're experiencing is also like in quotation.
Speaker 3: Normal, yeah, And I think we're also as blackfellows as well.
Speaker 3: And this is also for the wider audience as well.
Speaker 3: And another reason why I wrote Romance too is that
Speaker 3: so many of our books and stories and the things
Speaker 3: that the people in power, so whether that's publishers or
Speaker 3: movie makers or whoever else are seeking about our stories,
Speaker 3: oftentimes they want the hard one, right, So they want
Speaker 3: to hear about the tragedy of the stolen generation. They
Speaker 3: want to hear those things. And I'm not saying these
Speaker 3: things are not important and I are not legacies that
Speaker 3: we pass down and it's not trauma that we all
Speaker 3: carry in our blade. They are very sacred and these
Speaker 3: are important stories and they do change people's hearts and
Speaker 3: minds when they read these things. But also, can't we
Speaker 3: just have a silly book like books, silly romance novel.
Speaker 3: Can't we just have a book where everything works out?
Speaker 3: Can't we just see a snow shot a real life
Speaker 3: that's not necessarily our.
Speaker 2: Anita highest do that?
Speaker 1: Beauty Likely Williams has written a play as well that
Speaker 1: has done that.
Speaker 3: I've heard about that I really want to see.
Speaker 2: I feel like we were having a similar conversation, which
Speaker 2: is so good about like let us dance and dress
Speaker 2: in the clothes that we want to dress like. It
Speaker 2: doesn't always have to come from this, you know, yes,
Speaker 2: And I love you know, yeah, we love I'm learning
Speaker 2: to love the fluffy And I think Mel does a
Speaker 2: great job with like helping me with that beautiful and
Speaker 2: I think, you know, we've been on this journey together.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I use the word journey again.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, what's wrong with the word journey in.
Speaker 3: A bachelor's school of public You think I'll ever get
Speaker 3: rid of that word?
Speaker 2: And I'm so over it.
Speaker 3: But Anyways, Well, I want to know.
Speaker 1: Look, speaking of Journey, what's on the Horai and for email,
Speaker 1: what's next?
Speaker 3: Well, Brooke and I have this sequel coming out next year,
Speaker 3: so we're sort of deep in the editing trenches.
Speaker 1: A character called Maddie.
Speaker 2: We could probably.
Speaker 1: Boring name, don't do it?
Speaker 2: Could probably change it, I guess, No, I do not.
Speaker 2: It can be the horrible boring Cord. Yeah, I could
Speaker 2: a big sergeant. Now she just nice.
Speaker 3: And I am working on another romantic comedy right now
Speaker 3: as well. Do you have a name for it or
Speaker 3: it is called the next chapter at the moment? Okay,
Speaker 3: that's exciting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love the next world life.
Speaker 1: You know what, I want to be sure the best
Speaker 1: for the next chapter published. I love I would. I'm
Speaker 1: actually thinking. I've pitched a few ideas to the team
Speaker 1: and there's one idea that I really want to do,
Speaker 1: and it's a kid's book or around choice and understanding
Speaker 1: that every choice that we make leads to the places
Speaker 1: that we end up. So it's about, you know, making
Speaker 1: sure that young kids really at the beginning of their
Speaker 1: life understand that they've they've they can be really in
Speaker 1: control of their future, and you know, create a path
Speaker 1: that they want for their life instead of what they've
Speaker 1: been given. So it's all around choice and you know,
Speaker 1: this career Kid's Choice is currently the title, but I
Speaker 1: think you know, there's there's there's much more, definitely, because
Speaker 1: there's also consequences to choices. And one of the things
Speaker 1: in this book is not right or wrong. You know,
Speaker 1: there's no right or wrong, but if you make a
Speaker 1: choice that might affect somebody else, for instance, if you
Speaker 1: don't share something, or if you're being a selfish person,
Speaker 1: or if you make a decision that could have negative
Speaker 1: effect on someone, you need to understand that consequence, you know.
Speaker 1: So I think it's also about understanding every choice that
Speaker 1: we make in our lives has a consequence, and what
Speaker 1: are we willing to uh, you know, what are we
Speaker 1: willing to do with our own lives to make sure
Speaker 1: that those consequences an't always negative?
Speaker 3: But oh I love that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So that's my little my little book that's sort
Speaker 1: of in the very early pitching process.
Speaker 3: What age group do you think?
Speaker 1: Young? So I'm thinking, you know, six to ten.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's like a picture book or yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: And there's also it's it's a picture book, but there's
Speaker 1: also sort of what do they call pop ups, and
Speaker 1: you know, you don't know that you don't know the
Speaker 1: consequence until you make the decision that It's also are adventure,
Speaker 1: so it's like you might start with a certain choice
Speaker 1: that you make and then you follow that choice throughout
Speaker 1: the book and you get to a different you can
Speaker 1: if you choose something different at the beginning, you can
Speaker 1: get to something different at them that there's many ways
Speaker 1: you can read this book to a children's to a child,
Speaker 1: so it's not a you know, a one, one and
Speaker 1: done kind of book. It's there's multiple options that you
Speaker 1: could really go on as a journey, which I love.
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's my little first book. I think that
Speaker 1: that will hopefully be green lutin.
Speaker 3: Hopefully publishers.
Speaker 1: Don't take my idea. People listening, I.
Speaker 2: Feel like you'll do it. I feel like you'll do it.
Speaker 2: You never say things that you don't do so well.
Speaker 1: I just want to say thank you so much for
Speaker 1: taking the time to come in, Mel, like I know
Speaker 1: you know you flew in and you're here for the
Speaker 1: book launch, so I hope that all goes well and
Speaker 1: if our you know, lovely listeners want to support both
Speaker 1: of you. How can they find the book?
Speaker 3: The book is in all good bookstores at the moment.
Speaker 3: We particularly want to shout out if you're in well,
Speaker 3: actually anywhere Amplify Bookstore. They're in North Melbourne, but they're
Speaker 3: also they started as an online bookstore and they only
Speaker 3: cover writers of color, so it's a really small specialist bookshop.
Speaker 3: But yeah, if you want to support them an independent bookstore,
Speaker 3: but you can also buy it anyway.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it should be in the young adult ya children's books,
Speaker 2: yes section, but yeah you can also find Mel's other books,
Speaker 2: which is Love Unleashed and Burn and then hopefully the
Speaker 2: next chapter coming soon.
Speaker 1: I love that you can make us. Yes, we'll put
Speaker 1: all of these in the show notes so that our
Speaker 1: lovely listeners can click through quite easily. But thank you
Speaker 1: so much. Mel. That's all we have time for today.
Speaker 1: On first things first, if you love what he leave us,
Speaker 1: are rating in a little review, and if.
Speaker 2: You want us to cover anything on the next pod,
Speaker 2: reach out via our socials. You can find Mel at
Speaker 2: Little Red right, and my handle was at Brooked Up
Speaker 2: one and Mattie's handles at It's Maddy Meals.
Speaker 1: Bye.