1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,360 Speaker 1: We'd like to acknowledge that traditional custodians of the land 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: on which this podcast was produced the gadigall people of 3 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: the urination. We pay our respects to Elder's past and present. 4 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: This episode contains discussion of suicide. If this raises any 5 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: issues for you, support is available through the links and 6 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: phone numbers in the show notes. 7 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 2: Now they go along the line the folk mother of Rogers, 8 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 2: Rogers with that incisive place of Issadum, and he's accelerated 9 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 2: himself with the first that's so run from his outside. 10 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 3: It's October twenty twenty two and Matt Rodgers has the 11 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 3: first copy of his memoir in his hands. It's titled 12 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 3: A Father's Son. This is a big moment. These pages 13 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 3: are filled with the memories and stories that shaped his 14 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 3: journey to greatness. He's one of the most talented footbulers 15 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 3: of the modern era and a dual international in rugby 16 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 3: league and rugby union, but carving this path hasn't been easy. 17 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:14,199 Speaker 3: These same pages share the heartache and hardships he's experienced 18 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 3: along the way, from experimental surgery to losing his parents 19 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 3: in tragic circumstances. In writing this book, Matt has reflected 20 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:30,479 Speaker 3: on it all for the very first time. I'm Att 21 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 3: Middleton and this is head Game today. Matt Rogers on 22 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 3: creating his own identity and legacy. Now I'm super stoked 23 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 3: to have the legend that is Matt Rogers on the 24 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 3: head Game. Matt, how are you, buddy going? 25 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 2: Well, I'm going well, yeah, just living the dream. Some 26 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 2: would say up here on the Gold Coast and they're 27 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:56,559 Speaker 2: enjoying life. 28 00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 3: Good mate, that's music to my ears. I'm glad you're 29 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 3: enjoying life. Got a big smile on your face. It 30 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 3: looks like you're in a You're in a good place, 31 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 3: which is always always important. Talk to me about the 32 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:11,919 Speaker 3: younger Matt Rogers. You know, obviously you were introduced into 33 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 3: the Fretty world from the moment you were born, right. 34 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. I Mean my childhood was a bit I 35 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 2: was full on. You know, I had an older brother. 36 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:26,359 Speaker 2: Obviously my dad was the footing star, so it was 37 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 2: always around us. So at a very young age, you know, 38 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:32,079 Speaker 2: having that older brother who was a couple of years older, 39 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 2: and mean, I just wanted to play footy with him, 40 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:36,519 Speaker 2: and you know, he started playing and I was sort 41 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 2: of out of the loop, so to speak. With him 42 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 2: and my dad and my older brother. They would talk 43 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:43,639 Speaker 2: footy and I was like this sort of four year 44 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 2: old trying to get in on the chats and I 45 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 2: wasn't a part of it because I wasn't playing. So 46 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 2: I kicked them screened and got thet got the tick 47 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 2: of approval to go and play from my dad. Actually, 48 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 2: my mum just got sick of me badgering her like 49 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 2: you know, tears, and I said, I want to play. 50 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 2: And normally some mums keeping their little kids out of footy, 51 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:06,239 Speaker 2: but my mum was like, right, if your father says 52 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 2: it's all right, you can play. So Dad finally relented 53 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 2: and let me play it ninety four the ball. Back 54 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 2: in those days there was no many footy, so the 55 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:16,799 Speaker 2: ball was sort of as big as me. There's a 56 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 2: picture of me holding it and it's almost got two 57 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,359 Speaker 2: arms around it. I was pretty talented sports wise. I 58 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 2: can coordination all that sort of stuff, and probably just 59 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 2: had it over my brother and not not quite much, 60 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 2: but enough. From the age of about sort of seven 61 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 2: and onwards, I started to get the wood over him 62 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 2: in a lot of the game. Right back. You've got 63 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 2: to think back then, there was no yeah, I mean, 64 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 2: atari was probably there was none of that stuff. So 65 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 2: we went outside playing everything. I was a faster runner 66 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 2: than him, and so, yeah, made I beat him in 67 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 2: tennis and he just beat the shit out of me. 68 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 2: And I beat him in handball and he just cracked 69 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 2: me in and I just and I used to win. 70 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 2: Your complaining to mum. And my brother used to get 71 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 2: a bit of a hiding off my dad every time 72 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 2: he did it to me because I was his little brother. 73 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 2: But and my mom, well, she couldn't really do anything 74 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 2: about it. Like my mom would say to me, like, 75 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 2: you can easily stop it, just stop beating him. And 76 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 2: I'm like, no way in the world am I going 77 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 2: to stop beating him, Like it's the only thing I've 78 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:19,280 Speaker 2: got over. 79 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 3: Him, because to stop the beatings, you got to stop beating. 80 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:23,159 Speaker 2: Yeah. 81 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:25,799 Speaker 3: Yeah, it sounded like that you were really really close 82 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 3: the three boys of the house. Is that correct? Or 83 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 3: were you all really close? 84 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 2: Well, my dad, my dad was hard on my brother, 85 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 2: and I probably harder on my brother. My brother had 86 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:38,840 Speaker 2: it pretty rough when he was younger because he wasn't 87 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 2: quite the athlete that I was, and I was sort 88 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 2: of following dad and he was trying and he was 89 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,280 Speaker 2: pretty rough. I sort of got a little bit of 90 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 2: favor from the old man because I was pretty good 91 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 2: at football. But I was trying to sort of follow 92 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 2: on his footsteps and trying to get his attention. And yeah, 93 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:59,239 Speaker 2: it's the old story. You know, back in the seventies 94 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 2: and eighties, men were different. You know, the love and 95 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 2: affection wasn't the same. And it's the story is like 96 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 2: every guy my age I talked to, it's like the same. 97 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 2: Like you know, trying to get your attention to your 98 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 2: old men and they're you know, they're being hard and tough, 99 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 2: and then you look at their life, like my old 100 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 2: man was my old man. That pop, My pop was 101 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 2: a World War two it and just mate, just tough 102 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 2: as nails and just showed zero emotions, zero love. And 103 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 2: that was my old man. 104 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, that was there. 105 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 2: And like I'm like, well, I'm just getting the flow 106 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 2: on of that. So I look back and I just, man, 107 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 2: I'm grateful for it. I've got to be honest now 108 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 2: because I look at the world now and I just say, man, 109 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 2: I mean I've got a business where I have to 110 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 2: hire people and I see them mentally the life and 111 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 2: I just makes you want to throw up. 112 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 3: It's changed so much, doesn't It's like, you know, if 113 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 3: you've done what you've done, you know, and what was 114 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 3: done to you years ago, and they're not in a 115 00:05:57,600 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 3: bad way. But you know, that's why we're so disciplined, 116 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 3: and that's why we're so we're resilient, that's why we're tougher. 117 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:05,720 Speaker 3: And it's just a different, different era, isn't it. 118 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 2: Yeah. And I'm not throwing shade on this generation because 119 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 2: I think there's some great stuff, you know. I mean, 120 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 2: I've got kids that are growing up in this generation. 121 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,159 Speaker 2: And you know, sometimes sometimes I like have to catch 122 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 2: myself or my wife certainly catches me. It's like you gotta, 123 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 2: you know, give them a compliment rather than just going 124 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:24,280 Speaker 2: after what they're doing wrong, or you've got to you know, 125 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 2: like it's hard, you know. I think my twenty eight 126 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 2: year old boy, my oldest boy, he probably caught the 127 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:33,479 Speaker 2: worst because I was a new parent, I was young, 128 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 2: and I was just sort of doing what I've been 129 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 2: shown and I just here's what I know, and I 130 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 2: just I just know the world is frigging hard. The 131 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 2: world is a hard place, and it does not care 132 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 2: about you. And if you lay down and you think 133 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 2: it's gonna pick you back up, It just it will not. 134 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 2: It will kick you when you're down. 135 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:54,840 Speaker 3: And it will hold you exactly. If you think it's 136 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 3: going to, you know, give you opportunities, and if it's 137 00:06:58,040 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 3: going to lay lay everything on a platter for you, 138 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 3: you're mistaken. You've got to go out there. You've got 139 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:03,599 Speaker 3: to get it. You've got to tackle it, you've got 140 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 3: to face it, you got to challenge it. 141 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 2: So from sort of age age, sort of, I would say, 142 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 2: seventeen to twenty one, my oldest boy sort of rebelled 143 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 2: and I actually thought I lost him. I thought, I 144 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 2: don't know what's going to happen here. And you know, fortunately, 145 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 2: now you know, he's married and got his little my granddaughter, 146 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 2: his daughter Elsie, with his wife, Maddie, and it's beautiful. 147 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 2: I love it, you know, And I love the man 148 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 2: he's become. And he's focused and he's disciplined. And I 149 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 2: probably put that down to the hardness of you know, 150 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 2: back in the early days of his life, when I've 151 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 2: just tried to drill into him. It's like, mane, it 152 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 2: doesn't matter who you are, doesn't matter what your last 153 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 2: name is, doesn't matter. If you're good, if you can't deliver, you. 154 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 3: Go on and if anyone knows that, it's you, right, 155 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 3: because you grew up with your dad, Steve, being an 156 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 3: absolute legend in the game and going on to be 157 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 3: in the CEO of the club, etc. So talk about 158 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 3: you know the name, talk about the pressure, talk about 159 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 3: the validation that you seeking, Like, like you said, was 160 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 3: the pressure sometimes too much as a kid. And I 161 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 3: talk about you know, young teenage sort of years going 162 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 3: into into becoming a professional. How did that weigh on 163 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 3: your shoulders? 164 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I handled it pretty well, to be honest, 165 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 2: as a as a kid, you know, as a as 166 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 2: a as a teenager, I sort of arrogantly embraced it. 167 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 2: And when I would go and play in competitions or 168 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 2: I'd be trying out for repsides, I would use that 169 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 2: as fuel, like I'm Steve Rogerson, Like no one's going 170 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 2: to be better than me. You know, I'm going to 171 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 2: go out there and I'm going to show them because 172 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 2: I want to hear people. Would you would walk past 173 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:40,199 Speaker 2: a group of people they say, that's that's Steve Rodgerson, 174 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 2: that's you know, you'd hear the whispers and I would 175 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 2: be like yeah, and I'll show you. You know, it 176 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:50,559 Speaker 2: wasn't until probably moving into the professional ranks when it 177 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 2: really started to annoy me. And I'm embarrassed to say it, 178 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 2: to be honest, like it it sort of really pissed 179 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 2: me off as it like a sort of seventeen to 180 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 2: sort of twenty one the first year, you know, I 181 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:03,439 Speaker 2: got up to Kernulla and it was like, you know, 182 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 2: my name was written in the paper if I did 183 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 2: something good, but it was never Matt Rogers. I felt 184 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 2: like my name for a period of time was Matt Rogers, 185 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 2: son of former test great Steve Rodgers. Like if my 186 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 2: name was written in any news article, that's how it 187 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:19,319 Speaker 2: was written, Matt Rodgers, son of form of tests great 188 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,599 Speaker 2: Steve Rodgers. But what I sort of failed to realize was, 189 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:25,679 Speaker 2: you know, at that age, because you're just not mature enough, 190 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 2: is he don't have the right to have his name 191 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 2: like that after what he'd done. And I see young 192 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 2: athletes now coming into the game with fathers who had 193 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 2: done it before them, you know, as the Zoo Boys 194 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:40,719 Speaker 2: are perfect examples like trying to force her own. But 195 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 2: that Zoo name, the reason people know that name is 196 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 2: because of your dad, you know, like until you came 197 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 2: on the scene and you're doing amazing things. Boys, you're 198 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 2: doing great, but you're old man. That's why that name 199 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 2: is known now. We all know you now because you're 200 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 2: doing great things. But you know, honor that name, don't 201 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 2: care it to try to build yourself up, and that 202 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 2: was what I was doing. And I just I'm like, 203 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 2: I'm Matt Rogers. You know, I don't want to I 204 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:08,719 Speaker 2: don't want my name written like this. And you know, 205 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 2: my mum, you know, I went through a tragic sort 206 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 2: of you know, five years of cancer and brain tumor 207 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,439 Speaker 2: and everything. And it wasn't until she came and watched 208 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 2: me play in an Australian game and she collapsed at 209 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 2: halftime and that's when they discovered she had a brain 210 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 2: tumor and she got rushed into surgery. I got rushed 211 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 2: off the field. At the end of the game. I 212 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:31,559 Speaker 2: had the best game that I'd ever had for Australia. 213 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 2: I think I scored a few tries, kicked the sway 214 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,719 Speaker 2: your goals and set a record for most points in 215 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,959 Speaker 2: the game. And I get rushed to the hospital and 216 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 2: my mum's literally being taken in taken in to be 217 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 2: operated and I've got to have emergency surgery. And she's 218 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:48,839 Speaker 2: in right in the room before you go into the 219 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 2: operating toater, that little room you know where they do 220 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,199 Speaker 2: sh up with sort of pre med stuff, and you're 221 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 2: all woozing, you know, and I sort of rush in 222 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 2: there and she grabs me and I don't know whether 223 00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:59,199 Speaker 2: I'm going to ever seen my mum again. Like she is, 224 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 2: you know, brain surgery, and it was heavy. She'd been 225 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 2: going through breast cancer for about four years at upstage. 226 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,959 Speaker 2: She pulls me in tight. She says, you know, you've 227 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 2: made it, You've made it, and I'm not what do 228 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 2: you mean? She goes, I'm not Steve Rodgers's wife anymore. 229 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 2: I'm Met Rogers's mom, you know. And wow, that was huge. 230 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 2: And that must have been when she got to the 231 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 2: game or you know, people must have said, oh, your 232 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 2: MAT's mom, you know, like said like everywhere she went 233 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 2: before it was oh, you're Steve's wife, you know, And 234 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 2: for her to be thinking of me in that moment, 235 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:36,079 Speaker 2: you know, just really that was that was who my 236 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 2: mum was. 237 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:40,319 Speaker 3: And you said she was battling cancer four years to 238 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 3: that point. 239 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 2: For that, yeah, yeah. I mean she died at forty 240 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 2: six breast cancer. You know, so she was very young, 241 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 2: and they rattled the whole family. You know, I've got 242 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 2: to tell you like it was. She was. She was 243 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:54,079 Speaker 2: really the glue that held everything together. My dad was 244 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 2: sort of a man's man and a wild boy and 245 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:58,959 Speaker 2: you know, he could fit in anywhere, but she was 246 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 2: definitely the glue that helped every run together. 247 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 3: So and Matt let me just quickly rewind there. So 248 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 3: when so you're going through this and I don't want 249 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:09,679 Speaker 3: to call it an identity crisis, you know, because it's not. 250 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 3: You know exactly who you are. You're strong, you're on 251 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 3: the pitch, you're playing, you're loving the game. But always 252 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 3: this is happening as well. You're you're bat you're obviously 253 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 3: at your mom's side, battling, helping her, trying to battle cancer. 254 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 3: So you've got your mum, your dad, and then you're 255 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:30,200 Speaker 3: gain to concentrate on how did you split your time 256 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 3: between between all of that. 257 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was hard. It's a young family too at 258 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 2: the time, you know, you know, a little one year 259 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 2: old and a three year old at the time. It 260 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:44,559 Speaker 2: was probably one of the hardest times in my life, 261 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:48,839 Speaker 2: you know, just and my dad was really just not 262 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,839 Speaker 2: not not ignorant to the fact of how bad the 263 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 2: situation was, but it affected him so much you didn't 264 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 2: want to acknowledge it. So you know, at the back end, 265 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 2: you know, when Mum was in pallative care, I remember 266 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 2: him just being, you know, so absent from the situation. 267 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 2: Like Mum and Dad were, you know, teenage sweethearts, you know, 268 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 2: like they met on the Gold Coast and you fell 269 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 2: in love, and Mum was all Dad new in terms 270 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,559 Speaker 2: of his home life, and and I knew, and I 271 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 2: knew when Mum was gone my dad and Dad is 272 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:27,959 Speaker 2: this is not going to be good for that because 273 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,079 Speaker 2: he was just so dependent on mom. And Mom was 274 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 2: just so amazing with us and with him, and she 275 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 2: was my dad was a hard man, so it was 276 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:38,719 Speaker 2: hard to talk to. And Mum was a conduit for 277 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 2: all us kids to Dad, except for my sister. My 278 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 2: sister got everything off Dad, you know, like she was 279 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 2: Dad's ye know, but but for us boys, like if 280 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 2: we didn't have Mum, it was hard to speak to that. 281 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 3: That's interesting. How is your how was your relationship with 282 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:52,319 Speaker 3: your dad? 283 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,959 Speaker 2: Then? Well, we weren't we didn't get on because he 284 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 2: was my boss at the time. He was the Carnola 285 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,719 Speaker 2: Shark's boss, and I was and I was one of 286 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 2: the star players, so to speak. So he would try 287 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,079 Speaker 2: to get me to do stuff because it was easy 288 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 2: for him that other players didn't want to do. So 289 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 2: go and do a morning to this business and spend 290 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 2: an hour with their clients, and go and do this. 291 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 2: And he just used to put it on me every 292 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 2: week and I'm like, no, I'm not doing it. I'm 293 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 2: going to see him month, I'm going to spend time. 294 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 2: Mom was in pallative care at the time. This is 295 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 2: the back end. And I just remember this man Dad 296 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 2: just like Buttonhead so much, and I just, you know, 297 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 2: I think I wrote about it in my book I 298 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 2: lost my Dad. I literally didn't like he was not 299 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 2: my My phone would ring and I was like, is 300 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 2: this my dad? Call him? Or is this the CEO 301 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 2: of the Canal Sharks Court. And so I just put 302 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 2: him into the phone and I would never return his calls. 303 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 2: So I just didn't speak to him, and it just 304 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 2: became really hard for both of us. So and that 305 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 2: was a very big That was a big conduct for 306 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 2: the reason why I left because I wanted to get 307 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 2: my dad back. I didn't want him to be my 308 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 2: boss anymore, you know, particularly after all the stuff that 309 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 2: we were going through and being through. But but you 310 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 2: know my mom, you know, you got lover like she's 311 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 2: you know, imparative care. She's you weeks away from dying, 312 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 2: and she tells me on a deathbed, you can't leave Cronulla. 313 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 2: It'll ruin your dad. And I'm like, what, I can't 314 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 2: do that, mum, Like you can't tell me that I'm 315 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 2: an adult. I've got a wife and kids and you 316 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 2: can't tell me that. Like it's unfair, it's sort of all. 317 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 2: It sort of broke my heart to be honest, that 318 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 2: she would say that to me. But I mean, it 319 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 2: would have been worse if I went to Saint George 320 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 2: or off I went to Manly, or if I went 321 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 2: to like if I stayed in rugby league and went 322 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 2: to another club, that would have been worse. For that, 323 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 2: it would have been worse, like as the CEO of 324 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 2: the club and you know, one of their star players 325 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 2: lose and it's your son, Like you can't work that out. 326 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 2: So for me and having the rugged union background, so 327 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 2: you know, fortunately, you know After a couple of weeks, 328 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 2: Mom mum and obviously spoken to Dad and me and 329 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 2: she realized what was going on. So, you know, before 330 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 2: she passed, she's she actually said to me, you have 331 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 2: to leave, You have to get out of there, otherwise 332 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 2: it's this is this can't be you too. You know, 333 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 2: like my dad was my hero, you know, like most 334 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 2: young boys said, dad's a hero. And the crazy thing 335 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 2: about my dad being my hero, he was every kid 336 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 2: in the neighborhoods hero as well, So like you know, 337 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 2: he was it was and I just wanted to be 338 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 2: like him. And this was a really really hard time 339 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 2: in my life where I sort of felt like I'd 340 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 2: lost him and I was about to lose my mind. 341 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 3: When you started, were you starting to dislike him? Because 342 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 3: I went through the same with with with my with 343 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 3: my parents. I started to dislike them and then I 344 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 3: didn't want to be around them. And it was like, 345 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 3: like you said that he's your hero, and then all 346 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 3: of a sudden, you're starting to hate your hero. 347 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 2: It's you got I was furious. I was furious just 348 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 2: with a lot of things that were going on, and 349 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,640 Speaker 2: I just I couldn't believe it. I did I did 350 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 2: lean towards that, you know, like there was always sort 351 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 2: of like like that didn't build sort of love. But 352 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 2: I was just hating being in his space, and I 353 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 2: just didn't want to see him. Yeah. 354 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 3: The only reason why I say that is because when 355 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 3: you got the calls and you said I wouldn't even 356 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 3: call back, is because you didn't even want to be 357 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:24,640 Speaker 3: around him. You didn't even want to hear his voice. 358 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 3: And I've been there where you're just like and you 359 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 3: I realized that I start to hate one of my parents, 360 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 3: and I was like, Wow, that's a really really bad 361 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 3: place to be in a really bad headspace to be in. 362 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 3: And then your mom. I love that your mum on 363 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 3: her deathbed of all places, bless her. She's now the 364 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 3: you know she does she help mold this situation into 365 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 3: into you leaving right. 366 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, you know the crazy thing about 367 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:55,120 Speaker 2: it was, you know, she said that a few days 368 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 2: later she passed away. Dad wasn't there. I was there, 369 00:17:57,800 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 2: and I had the ring dad and tell him that 370 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 2: Mom had gone, and he got there, and you know, 371 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 2: we just broke down and hugged and sort of made 372 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:08,719 Speaker 2: a pact that we'd be okay. And I told him 373 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 2: that day I was leaving, and he said he understood 374 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 2: and he'd support me one hundred percent, to the point 375 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 2: where as the CEO of the kronol Of Sharks at 376 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,640 Speaker 2: my press conference for the Australian Rugby Union, he came 377 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 2: and sat next to me on the table, which is 378 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 2: a pretty big move. 379 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:40,159 Speaker 3: How did your mum's passing affect you psychologically? What was 380 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 3: going through your head? And how how did you move 381 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 3: on psychologically from that? 382 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a long time ago now, you know. I've 383 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 2: had a lot of people ask me how did you do? 384 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:54,119 Speaker 2: How did you go through all that stuff? Like how 385 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 2: did you do it? And and I think I just 386 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 2: I just wanted to sort of like a mode of 387 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 2: just do what needs to be done, you know, and 388 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 2: and kept busy, like you know, I remember I organized, 389 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:12,920 Speaker 2: you know, all of my mum's funeral with my brother 390 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 2: and my sister, you know, like we did a dad didn't. 391 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 2: I didn't my dad to have to worry about it. 392 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 2: You know, we did it all. You know. I just 393 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 2: I tried to you know, you know it's funny you're 394 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 2: asking me this. I got on with life, but I 395 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,879 Speaker 2: never I never broke down. I never I never cried. 396 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:34,880 Speaker 3: Never. 397 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 2: I just thought until I remember my wife, now, Chloe, 398 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 2: we were sitting in my apartment and we just started 399 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 2: talking about my mum. And you know, Chloe reminds me 400 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 2: so much of my mum, you know, like just their 401 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 2: outgoing nature. And but you know, you could put her 402 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 2: in the room with the Queen, she'd sit right in, 403 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 2: or you could chuck her in the sports bar of 404 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 2: Nordis and she'd pull me out by me year if 405 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 2: I was playing out. That's true. Actually, my mum had 406 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:03,920 Speaker 2: to be like that. 407 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 3: And I think a good level keep your grounded, right, Yeah, 408 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 3: exactly so. 409 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 2: And I just remember just breaking down that night and crying, 410 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:15,719 Speaker 2: and Chloie asked me if you ever cried over your 411 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 2: mom and what not? And I broke down. I just 412 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 2: uncontrollably cried for about an hour with Chloie you hugging me, 413 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:26,880 Speaker 2: and I just I'll never forget that night. And yeah, 414 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 2: I just I just think I just shut it all down, 415 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 2: you know, because I was, you know, the guy out 416 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 2: in the public and you know, everybody was looking at me, 417 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 2: and yeah, I had to I had to be strong 418 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 2: for the family, so to speak, and tried tried not 419 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 2: to have to deal with it, I guess. But in 420 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 2: the end, you know, it all comes around, and you 421 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 2: know what, it was just that moment where you know, 422 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 2: it just all came out and it was just I'll 423 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 2: tell you what. I wake up the next day feeling amazing. 424 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 3: It was just the best I've been there. Mate, You've 425 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 3: been there. You sort of you do. It's supurge that 426 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 3: you need the emotional dump that you need. It obviously 427 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 3: didn't affect your your your footy. Obviously didn't affect your 428 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 3: play because you just you just was it a sense 429 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:19,160 Speaker 3: of escapism, hitting the hitting the footy pitch ye thanks. 430 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Like you know, there's a few things I 431 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 2: love doing, right I used to. I love playing footy 432 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:28,359 Speaker 2: because now one can get to you, and it's your space. 433 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:30,880 Speaker 2: You're out there, you know, sort of doing your thing 434 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 2: with your mates. I love surfing because I could paddle 435 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,159 Speaker 2: out to the ocean and now I'm like, and if 436 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 2: someone's annoying, I can just paddle away. I'm just out 437 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,120 Speaker 2: there enjoying nature. And you know, I love playing golf 438 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,399 Speaker 2: or running through the trails in the bush, just outside 439 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 2: away from people where I mean, I'm in my own world. 440 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 2: So just a lot of that stuff. And yeah, and 441 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 2: and fody just you know, foody always came easy to me. 442 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:01,159 Speaker 2: You know, it wasn't it wasn't hard for me to do. 443 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 2: But you have to train hard to be good, don't 444 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 2: get me wrong, But footy came easy. So I, you know, 445 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 2: after my mom passed, I just you know, really sort 446 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 2: of stuck my head down and my butt up. And 447 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 2: you know, I just signed to go over to rugby, 448 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 2: so I wanted to do well there and it meant 449 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 2: a lot to me not to go over there and 450 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 2: just take a paycheck and not perform. So yeah, I 451 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 2: totally enjoyed that that change, and that was it sort 452 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 2: of happened at a good time. In a month passed, 453 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 2: my season ended. I finished off with the Sharks. We 454 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 2: played a prelim finally against the Knights, and the last 455 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 2: try I scored my best made who I played with 456 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 2: the Sharks. He was the hooker and he was useless 457 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 2: at kicking the ball anyway, For some unbeknown reason, he 458 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:47,640 Speaker 2: jumped out of doub me half and kicks the ball 459 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 2: and I run down and the third full back knocks 460 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 2: it on and I ended up scoring a try. So 461 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 2: that was my last try in rugby league at the Sharks, 462 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 2: and it was off my mate's rotten kick, which was hilarious. 463 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 3: It was a lot of how you go out meant 464 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 3: to be, mate, it was meant to. 465 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 2: Be went over to rugby and having that change. Although 466 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,120 Speaker 2: I played rugby a lot, like I didn't play any 467 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,880 Speaker 2: rugby league as a teenager. I just played was oh sorry. 468 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 2: I came back to the Sharks as a seventeen year old, 469 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 2: but you know, from from fourteen to seventeen it was 470 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,400 Speaker 2: just rugby. I didn't play any ugue, so I knew 471 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 2: the game, but coming back to it at twenty six, 472 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 2: there was still a lot I had to sort of 473 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 2: scrub up on a lot of stuff, so I didn't 474 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,680 Speaker 2: have time to think about anything else but that. And 475 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 2: so the timing was good for that move, Like one 476 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 2: pass finished the season straight into my changeover to rugby, 477 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 2: and it just gave me a real sort of new 478 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 2: lease on life. You know, my dad and I were 479 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 2: getting on like a house on fire because he wasn't 480 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 2: my boss, he was my dad again, and I felt 481 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 2: really good about where my life was, you know, it 482 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 2: was in the right direction. 483 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 3: And we spoke about how it affected you psychologically. How 484 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 3: did it affect your dad because you said at the 485 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:02,640 Speaker 3: beginning of this this talk that you feared that if 486 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,880 Speaker 3: your mum wasn't here, your dad would really suffer. Did 487 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 3: he suffer? 488 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, he suffered from He suffered from the 489 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 2: diagnosis through to a death and then beyond. 490 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 3: And could you see changes in his behavior in it? 491 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 3: Or was he quite again we talk about that era 492 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 3: of just putting up that stone face, that stone wall, 493 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:25,680 Speaker 3: and yet no, I'm fine, don't worry about it, I 494 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 3: don't want to talk about it. I'm good to go. 495 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 3: Was he very much like that? Wasn't Were there any 496 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 3: signs that you could see? 497 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 2: Or he was very hard edged, you know, like very 498 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,159 Speaker 2: stone wall sort of. You know, I can deal with this, 499 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,479 Speaker 2: you know, and to be honest, and I didn't want 500 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 2: to see it any other way. Like my dad was 501 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 2: my hero and he was this big, strong dude, and 502 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,120 Speaker 2: I didn't want to That's why I wanted to take 503 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 2: everything off him, like in terms of the funeral and stuff, 504 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 2: and I just you know, I had him on a 505 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 2: pedestal and I didn't want to see him break probably 506 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 2: selfie on my behalf. But you know, as kids sort 507 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:05,880 Speaker 2: of took over there because when you're too hard. 508 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,680 Speaker 3: That's interesting, that is because yeah, I suppose you don't. 509 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 3: He's your hero, he's your he's your protector, you know. 510 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 3: You know, if something goes wrong, then he's that that 511 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,639 Speaker 3: that that sheet of concrete that will protect you. And 512 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 3: you don't want to see that crumble, right, No, No, And. 513 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 2: You know it wasn't until you know, I sort of 514 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 2: a probably probably he and I, you know, after me 515 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 2: leaving Cronella and then I moved into the city and 516 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 2: I didn't see him a lot. You know, we talked 517 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 2: a bit, and then then I came back to Cronulla 518 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 2: and moved back with Chloe, and and Chloe was pregnant, 519 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,440 Speaker 2: and I remember going over and telling him and he 520 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 2: was so excited and he was about he was just 521 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 2: he was excited and he was he was he was 522 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 2: going on a trip. I remember saying to Collie, like, 523 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 2: did he seem happy about going away? She's like not really, 524 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 2: I'm all right. So we left and yeah, I was 525 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 2: the last time I saw him. I couldn't put my 526 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 2: finger on it. It just wasn't him. You know. We 527 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 2: were coming home from from from Byron and back in 528 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,359 Speaker 2: those days. He is eighteen years ago now she's she's 529 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 2: we've been going in and out of service areas that 530 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:32,120 Speaker 2: you're driving from Byron Bay back to Sydney and there 531 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 2: he called me like two in the morning when I 532 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 2: was on the road because we drove over night and 533 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 2: I didn't get the call. I got the message at 534 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 2: lunchtime the next day. But he killed himself that morning. 535 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 3: How do you find out that your dad's passed? You 536 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 3: get a phone call from your brother. 537 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,199 Speaker 2: I'll tell you. My neighbor, my good neighbor, like he's 538 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 2: one of my one of my really good friends, and 539 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 2: he was one of Dad's really good friends. He's just 540 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 2: banging on my door, like and I'd got home at 541 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 2: like four five in the morning. I've literally been in 542 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 2: bed for an hour and Chloe was up and I 543 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:08,919 Speaker 2: just hear this yelling at my front door. He's made up, 544 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,160 Speaker 2: he's made up. And Chloe's like, no, no, he's upstairs asleep. 545 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 2: I can hear him he has he spoken to anyone? 546 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 2: And I just remember him keep saying, has he spoken 547 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,880 Speaker 2: to anyone? Chloe come from an upstairs. She goes Downsy's 548 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 2: Mart and down so we call him Downsy Downsy's downstairs. 549 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 2: He really wants to speak to you. He said, don't 550 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 2: speak to anyone on your phone. Don't don't pick up 551 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 2: your phone. So I go downstairs and I seen him 552 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:32,479 Speaker 2: and he goes and he's spoken anyone. And I said, man, 553 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,119 Speaker 2: shop just got home. What's going on? He goes, you 554 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,160 Speaker 2: got to come with me now as the crow flies. 555 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,200 Speaker 2: My dad lived about sort of five hundred meters, you know, 556 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 2: like like just he lived on the beach. I lived 557 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 2: on the bay. And before before all this happened. And 558 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 2: my dad, when we first moved into that house, we 559 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,639 Speaker 2: had a we had a party there. We're not a party. 560 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 2: I had a few mates over and Downsy had just 561 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,399 Speaker 2: moved in next door to me, and I knew him 562 00:27:58,400 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 2: and Dad were good mate. So he leaned over the 563 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 2: b and he goes what he did, and Chloe was away. 564 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,200 Speaker 2: I said, we're just having a few beers. Come over, 565 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 2: and he goes, ring, your old man, did him to 566 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 2: come down? So I rang Dad, and Dad came down 567 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 2: and downs and came out. We had a bit of 568 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 2: a night just the boys, and then Dad was walking 569 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 2: home and he goes, come out to the front. I 570 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 2: want to speak to you. And we went out the 571 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 2: front and I remember we're leaning it on my car 572 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 2: and he goes, I've just had enough, and I thought 573 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:35,640 Speaker 2: he meant enough of his current relationship situation. So I'm like, well, mate, 574 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 2: just finish it. And I like, our house was huge, 575 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 2: so just come and live with me. And he's like, nah, nah, 576 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 2: I don't want to do that, he does. I just 577 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 2: I've just had a gup full. Mate. I think I 578 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 2: think I'm done, And I guess is weirdly computer like 579 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 2: we'd had a few beers and I'm just trying to 580 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 2: think you're done, You're done with what you know, And 581 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 2: that's when I sort of started to what is he 582 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 2: done with this woman? Or is he you know? And 583 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 2: so I gave him a heart and mate, you know 584 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 2: I'm here, you know, like just he can come to 585 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 2: me anytime you think about like this right, Like but 586 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 2: this is a guy who was like the greatest Sharks 587 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 2: player of all time, he was the CEO of the club. 588 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 2: Like who does he go and talk to you know 589 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 2: what I mean? 590 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 3: Like fucking hell, just send shivers down my spine there, mate, 591 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 3: You're exactly right. 592 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 2: Wow, he's trying to talk to me and I didn't know, 593 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 2: like this is before mental health was the trend. Not 594 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 2: the trend, but the thing. Yeah. I think he was 595 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 2: sort of like quite a catalyst towards that, you know, 596 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 2: like everyone's like, holy shit, you know, like this is 597 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 2: a CEO of his beloved club. He's got kids, he's 598 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 2: got big grandkids. 599 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 3: He's got a lot to live for, you know, and yeah, 600 00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 3: who does he talk to you? 601 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, so that warning went down. He's banging on my 602 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 2: door and he goes, if he talked to anyone that 603 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 2: I sort of get in his car and I sort 604 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 2: of knew, oh, this is this is not good, Like 605 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 2: it's I said, what's happening? He goes, mate, I was 606 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 2: walking on the esplanade this morning, and he goes and 607 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 2: there was a lot of people in Add's apartment and 608 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 2: I've walked up there to find out what's going on, 609 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 2: and he goes, I don't know how to tell you. 610 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 2: Maybe your dad's gone, you know. So I got there 611 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 2: and there was like a cast of thousands around this 612 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 2: apartment at this time, because word around corner. And that's 613 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 2: why he was saying, that's Matt talked twenty one. It's 614 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 2: Matt talked to anyone and I got up there and 615 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,479 Speaker 2: there was like two hundred people, like as soon as 616 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 2: anyone had walked past the like his apartment on the 617 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 2: ESPNAT something about going, Steve Rodgers has just died. He's 618 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 2: he's in the stairwell, and then they wander up and 619 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 2: I just created this this crowd of people. I get 620 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 2: there as the police get there and they go in 621 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 2: and sort of surveyed the situation, and yeah, it just 622 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 2: became as zoo. Anyway, I just asked me to, you know, 623 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 2: do I want to identify the body. So I just 624 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 2: went in there and just sat with him for a 625 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 2: couple of hours just to talk to him and asked 626 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 2: him what what did he do it for? And yeah, 627 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 2: didn't answer obviously, it was it was. It was tough, 628 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 2: you know, I came out, It was even there was 629 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 2: probably a thousand people outside the apartment block now and 630 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 2: just people who love my dad. 631 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 3: Were you asking the questions that that you knew you 632 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 3: couldn't ask? 633 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 2: You know, wait, and you know, why why didn't why 634 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 2: didn't he tell me he was proud? Why didn't you ask? 635 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 2: Why didn't you tell me he loved me? Why? You know? 636 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 2: All those things? And I just laid on him to 637 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:53,479 Speaker 2: be honest, and hugged him. And then a funny thing 638 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 2: that came out of the morning. It was he had 639 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 2: a watch on that that I gave him, but I 640 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 2: didn't give him. He wanted it. I said, mate, watch 641 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 2: cost me fifte hundred bucks. Yes, I'll give you five 642 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 2: hundred for it. I said, all right, So I gave 643 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 2: it to it and he never fregking paid me, and 644 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 2: he had it on. I need to get back. I've 645 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 2: still got the watch. I've still got it. I got 646 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 2: his name and he's things in grave on the bottom. 647 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 2: So yeah, it was a brooder warning. 648 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 3: And how old were you, Matt? 649 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 2: I was Jesus it was. I was thirty. I was thirty. 650 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 2: He was fifty one. He was not quite fifty one. 651 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 2: He just turned fifty on you. Yeah, it was. It 652 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 2: was tough, like to'd be fifty years old, man, Like 653 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,959 Speaker 2: I just like I'm forty eight, I'm forty nine. I'm 654 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 2: closer to forty nine and fifty now. I think, Man, 655 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 2: my mom passed away at forty six and my dad 656 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 2: at fifty. Man, I feel like my life just started. 657 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 2: I felt there was so much good stuff to happen, 658 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 2: you know, I look at my kids and my grandkids, 659 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,040 Speaker 2: and you know, the life you've got ahead of us 660 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 2: and my wife, and I just I felt the luckiest 661 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 2: guy ever, you know, honestly, just I just can't fathom it, 662 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 2: you know. But you know that like my old man, like, 663 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 2: you know, if you wanted to beat Cranula in the 664 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 2: seventies and eighties, you take out Steve Rodgers and it 665 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 2: was almost legal. So they talk about CTE man like, 666 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 2: you know, when he had his jaw absolutely smashed from 667 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 2: one side of his face with his other like, and 668 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 2: it was what ended his career in Australia. Basically there 669 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 2: wasn't even a penalty given, you know, like it's just like, 670 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 2: what the hell he's just left laying on the ground. 671 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 2: I'm sitting there as like a nine years old on 672 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 2: the ball boy. I'm watching my dad just walk off 673 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 2: the field his jaw hanging on his chest basically and 674 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 2: no penalty, and I'm just thinking, wow, I mean ends. 675 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 2: But I looked at my old man. I thought he 676 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 2: was the toughest bastard in the world in those days. Mate. 677 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 3: I just sat and you know, I. 678 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 2: Remember creeping in the dressing room may like it was 679 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 2: a belmore Oval and my mom and my mom and 680 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 2: my brother were sitting in the stand and halftime happens, 681 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 2: and then the head of the ball boy that he 682 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 2: knew how emotional I was about this whole thing, he goes, 683 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 2: you don't you don't have to go out there for 684 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:29,320 Speaker 2: the second half or get other ones to other boys, 685 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 2: and so everybody cleared out, and it was just my 686 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 2: dad and the doctor in the dressing room, and I 687 00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:36,359 Speaker 2: was out in the front, and he goes, you don't 688 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 2: have to go out. So I wanted to go into 689 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 2: the dress room to see my dad because the boar 690 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 2: boys went out in the dress room at halftime. So 691 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 2: everyone goes out, and you could hear like the crowd 692 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 2: roaring in the stand above you, like it was this 693 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 2: whole concrete tand you could hear the murmur of the crowd, 694 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 2: and it was like it was like a horror movie. 695 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 2: I'm sort of creeping down this like concrete hallway to 696 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 2: try to get in there to see how bad my 697 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,800 Speaker 2: dad is. When I opened the door and there was 698 00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 2: just him. There was just him sitting on like a 699 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 2: like a strupping table with and leaning up against a 700 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 2: metal a concrete pylon, and a bandage around his head, 701 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 2: holding his jawer, and I'm like and and he sees me, 702 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:17,959 Speaker 2: you know, like he sees me sick my head around 703 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:19,800 Speaker 2: the corner like not no what to do, and he 704 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 2: sort of calls me over, you know, and and he 705 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:23,880 Speaker 2: couldn't talk, so he just sort of, you know, he 706 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 2: taps the bench for me to jump up on the 707 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 2: bench nextly, and he just he just grabbed me and 708 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 2: hugged me. So he was just really worried about how 709 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,320 Speaker 2: how I was. He didn't care about how he was. 710 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 2: And you know those moments, like my mom and dad 711 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 2: both did that in times when they were in a 712 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 2: real bad way. You know. It just there was a 713 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 2: lot of live in our family that just came out 714 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 2: in funny ways. You know. 715 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, you're there comfort. You find comfort in your children. 716 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 3: You find a sense of peace that you can't expec 717 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 3: playing in your children. And whether it's just the moment 718 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,440 Speaker 3: of them being there, a moment of just setting eyes 719 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 3: on them, a moment of just them being at your side. 720 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 3: That's that's all we need, is parents. But you know, 721 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:12,920 Speaker 3: when you look back on things and you know, and 722 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,280 Speaker 3: your dad as he was and you now being a parent, 723 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,319 Speaker 3: you realize that the magnitude and the power of those 724 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:20,759 Speaker 3: moments and how important they are. 725 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, and yeah, it's so right. I mean, I love 726 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,760 Speaker 2: it when my kids, when my kids is my oldest, 727 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 2: my oldest kids are twenty eight and twenty five, and 728 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 2: my my younger kids are eighteen and seventeen, So eighteen seventeen, 729 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 2: it's almost like they're too cool to hang out with 730 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,800 Speaker 2: you that they're not. You know, they're great, you know. 731 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:43,759 Speaker 2: And my older kids, you know, I love saying, you know, 732 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 2: my oldest boy, he's got his own stuff going on. 733 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 2: You know, he's a busy guy and works hard and 734 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 2: got a family and I don't want to see you know, 735 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,279 Speaker 2: it's just the best. It's the best. And same with 736 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,520 Speaker 2: my daughter, you know that got their own lives and kids, 737 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,360 Speaker 2: and you know that is pretty special. Or when you 738 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 2: see him and you have them all together, it's it's 739 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,400 Speaker 2: at a moment that I just cherished. But now losing 740 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 2: losing dad that that way. Yeah, I don't we should 741 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 2: upon anyone, you know, at that young, at such a 742 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 2: young age, it's it's tough. 743 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 3: H Matt. When your father passed away, he was still playing, right, Yeah, 744 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 3: how was that? 745 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 2: Uh? Well, you know, Ben, Ben that I was chasing him. 746 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 2: You know when I say chasing him, I wanted to 747 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 2: be him, you know, that was my life goal. I 748 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 2: wanted to be Steve Rodgers sent me into a bit 749 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:43,879 Speaker 2: of a tailspin, to be honest. So I was like, well, 750 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,360 Speaker 2: do I really want to be Steve Rodgers? Do you know? 751 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 2: Do I want to end up there? So I I 752 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,800 Speaker 2: just I didn't want to play anymore. So I basically 753 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,440 Speaker 2: told the war atas at the times, look, I don't 754 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 2: know when I was back, I don't know if I'll 755 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 2: be back. And they were great, you know, Dave Gibson 756 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 2: team manager, and you and McKenzie was our coach at 757 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,880 Speaker 2: the time. I like, mate, you just come back whenever 758 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:18,279 Speaker 2: you feel like you can, and we'll offer you all 759 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,240 Speaker 2: the support you need. Doctor by the name of Sharon 760 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 2: fla Hive, who was one of the greatest humans on 761 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,840 Speaker 2: the planet, would come and just spend time with me, 762 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:29,799 Speaker 2: you know, if she was the doctor of the Warrior 763 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:34,760 Speaker 2: Cars the Wallabies, and she just sit on my balcony 764 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 2: and just talked to me, you know, and asked me 765 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,040 Speaker 2: how I was going, and just making sure I was okay. 766 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,279 Speaker 2: I reverted to putting anything into my body that would 767 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:48,440 Speaker 2: make me feel good and forget life. And I was 768 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,879 Speaker 2: not in a good way at all. And she came 769 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,400 Speaker 2: to me and basically got to the point where she 770 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,120 Speaker 2: just got She just confronted me about it. She's like, 771 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:02,480 Speaker 2: what are you doing? You are ruining your life and 772 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 2: you reckon your old man is going to be proud 773 00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:08,279 Speaker 2: of this. And I'm like, yeah, it's a good point 774 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:14,200 Speaker 2: because you know, without someone like that in your life. 775 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,360 Speaker 2: And my wife didn't she didn't want to push me, 776 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:18,759 Speaker 2: you know, like because I was not in a good 777 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,320 Speaker 2: space without someone like that in your life. If you 778 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:24,960 Speaker 2: live in a world like like I did, where you're 779 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 2: a bit of a football star, you have a proofile. 780 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:29,440 Speaker 2: There's not too many people in your life who are 781 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,160 Speaker 2: going to tell you that that they're in your life, 782 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 2: so they need to be pretty real, you know. But yeah, 783 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:42,640 Speaker 2: she just hammered me and made me realize. She goes 784 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 2: back up training on Monday. She is I'm not going 785 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:48,120 Speaker 2: to take from the answer. This is the place that 786 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,040 Speaker 2: makes you happy. These are your friends who want to 787 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:53,000 Speaker 2: support you. This is so I got the training and 788 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:57,279 Speaker 2: I just walked off halfway through it, and I just 789 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 2: didn't want to be there. I'll I was unfit and 790 00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 2: it's not feeling it for a war chased after me, 791 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:08,879 Speaker 2: my teammate gave me a hug, made I'm just here, 792 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:13,759 Speaker 2: just not trying to not trying to force into anything, mate, 793 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,719 Speaker 2: but we love you, and he said we need you. 794 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,320 Speaker 2: So he said, when you're ready, we'll have you, you know. 795 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,279 Speaker 2: And another week went by and I went back and 796 00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:26,680 Speaker 2: got through a whole session and then worked on sort 797 00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:30,879 Speaker 2: of my fitness and slowly moved my way back into 798 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 2: the team. And I'll never forget the first game coming back, 799 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:38,120 Speaker 2: you know. It was at the Sydney Football Stadium and 800 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 2: I think we're playing the Sharks maybe from South Africa. 801 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,399 Speaker 2: It would have been about thirty five forty thousand people. 802 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:46,200 Speaker 2: They're like it was back in the days when people 803 00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:49,600 Speaker 2: actually attended rugby union matches in Australia, which was good 804 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 2: rug reunion matches I talk of. And I started on 805 00:40:55,280 --> 00:41:01,200 Speaker 2: the bench and about twenty five minutes into the first half, 806 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,400 Speaker 2: I you know, got asked to go on and a 807 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 2: man they announced me coming on the field, and the 808 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,640 Speaker 2: way that the crowd cheered just made me feel like 809 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:14,640 Speaker 2: I was in the right place. You know, it was 810 00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:18,279 Speaker 2: a different cheer. It just lasted longer than what a 811 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:22,680 Speaker 2: normal cheer would. And then my first touch of the ball, 812 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:24,799 Speaker 2: I made this mad break and then that just went 813 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:29,800 Speaker 2: bananas again and before he goes you home, mate, and 814 00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, yeah, that just got me going again. 815 00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:35,480 Speaker 2: And yeah, I just had a good back end of 816 00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:38,759 Speaker 2: my career. And I did you know after that year, 817 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,040 Speaker 2: but I just felt like I just didn't want to 818 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:47,200 Speaker 2: be away from my family anymore, and Rugby was just 819 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,120 Speaker 2: really taking me away from my family. You know. I 820 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 2: spoke to my close mates at the Warrior Tars and said, 821 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:54,719 Speaker 2: you know, look, I just don't think I can do 822 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:58,680 Speaker 2: this anymore. I'm going to I'm going to retire. Yeah. 823 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:00,839 Speaker 2: They were like, yeah, it made it where you're at, 824 00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,840 Speaker 2: that's where you're at, and you know, just out of 825 00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:06,239 Speaker 2: the blue or made in mind. Said why don't you 826 00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:09,200 Speaker 2: go and have a meeting with this guy such and such. 827 00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 2: He is the owner of the Gold Coast Titans. And 828 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,080 Speaker 2: I wanted to move. I really wanted to move out 829 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:15,839 Speaker 2: of Cronella. I was living in Cronulla and I wanted 830 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:17,680 Speaker 2: to get back to Queensland, where I felt like home 831 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:22,840 Speaker 2: was and he goes, don't retire. You're too young to retire. 832 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 2: He ThReD, go and speak to you, the CEO, and 833 00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:28,719 Speaker 2: see if you can put a bill together for you 834 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:30,560 Speaker 2: to get your back up the resume. I don't want 835 00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:32,680 Speaker 2: to play. It's not just that I want to move. 836 00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:36,520 Speaker 2: I don't want to play anymore. I came back. I finished, 837 00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,040 Speaker 2: I'm good, you know. And and he's a good, really 838 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:41,920 Speaker 2: good friend of mine, this guy, and I really respect him. 839 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:43,120 Speaker 2: He said, just how to respect for me? Can you 840 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,960 Speaker 2: just go and have a meeting. I'm like, yeah, so 841 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,279 Speaker 2: I won had a meeting, and I can. I tell 842 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:53,880 Speaker 2: you the best way to go into a negotiation is 843 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:58,840 Speaker 2: not caring I And he's like, I'll pay you this 844 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:03,600 Speaker 2: if you come presented a great you know pitch, you know, 845 00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:05,600 Speaker 2: like and I love the Gold Coast. And it was 846 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 2: just like wow, you know, like, yeah, it sounds awesome. 847 00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:12,160 Speaker 2: And he goes and he writes, and he goes, i'll 848 00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:14,440 Speaker 2: pay you this, and side it over the table. And 849 00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,160 Speaker 2: I looked at it. I'm like, mate, if you pay 850 00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:21,040 Speaker 2: me double, i'll consider it. And he goes, well, if 851 00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:23,319 Speaker 2: I pay you double, what you sign a letter of intent? 852 00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:34,200 Speaker 2: Now I'll really call the crazy thing was is my wife, 853 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:38,360 Speaker 2: you know, like her dad and stepdad are both barristers, 854 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,840 Speaker 2: and she's like, don't you sign anything in there, And 855 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:43,239 Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm not going to sign it. I don't 856 00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,680 Speaker 2: want to play you anyway. I rang and I said, oh, 857 00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:48,920 Speaker 2: I just so you know we're a movement of the 858 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:53,359 Speaker 2: Gold Coast. He said, you wouldn't sign anything. I said, 859 00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:57,880 Speaker 2: there's a lot of reasons, and our all dogs. I signed. Anyway, 860 00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,400 Speaker 2: I came back to the Times. I actually ended up 861 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:02,680 Speaker 2: getting released and I came here yere earlier, so I actually, 862 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:05,359 Speaker 2: although I did get paid well to come to the Time, 863 00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:07,759 Speaker 2: I took a huge pay cup to come and play 864 00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,200 Speaker 2: the first year I played here. But it was the 865 00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:13,359 Speaker 2: best move for me mentally, Like just everywhere I went 866 00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:17,400 Speaker 2: with Cornella, it was just dad, Dad, dad and everybody 867 00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:21,480 Speaker 2: he knew. My dad like Cornella is very insula, Like 868 00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:23,640 Speaker 2: it's like a little fishbowl and if you live there, 869 00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:26,719 Speaker 2: and if you're a Rogers or you're Steve Rogers Matt Road, 870 00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:28,360 Speaker 2: you cannot escape it. 871 00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:30,400 Speaker 3: And he has sworded up. 872 00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:32,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it just got too much for me. So 873 00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:35,920 Speaker 2: I moved back to the Gold Coast. And man, I'll 874 00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,240 Speaker 2: tell you coming back here and playing for the Titans. 875 00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:40,800 Speaker 2: It was just it was such a it was like 876 00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:42,759 Speaker 2: it was like a new lease of life, you know, 877 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:47,400 Speaker 2: and being able to raise my kids up here. You know, 878 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:49,000 Speaker 2: I grew up on the Gold Coast. I came here 879 00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:51,520 Speaker 2: as a young boy, and I just my mum was 880 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:53,640 Speaker 2: a born and bred Gold Coast girl. So she was 881 00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:55,839 Speaker 2: one of thirteen kids, right, So I've got about four 882 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,399 Speaker 2: thousand cousins and they've got cousins of the Gold Coast. 883 00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,360 Speaker 2: So it was just it was the best move for 884 00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:05,360 Speaker 2: me mentally. And you know, my wife, although for the 885 00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:08,200 Speaker 2: first she absolutely hated it. She's an Eastern Suburbs girl, 886 00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:11,680 Speaker 2: so she was at that time made the number one 887 00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:14,279 Speaker 2: shop at Pacific Fair. Was I think Target, She's like, 888 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,919 Speaker 2: what have you done to me? She was the lady 889 00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:23,360 Speaker 2: who's you know what runways, runways in Paris and Milan 890 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:27,440 Speaker 2: and you know, the biggest names in modeling. And she's like, Target, 891 00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:31,440 Speaker 2: that's it. And I'm like, oh, yeah, get used to it. 892 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,280 Speaker 2: She loves it. She's not she's certainly not a snob, 893 00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,759 Speaker 2: but she she was struggling to find her place in 894 00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:42,400 Speaker 2: those first first view. 895 00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:47,640 Speaker 3: Awesome mate, but Matt it's been absolutely fascinating me. Thank 896 00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:50,160 Speaker 3: you for sharing your story with us. Car To be 897 00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:52,200 Speaker 3: able to play at the level that you play that 898 00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:56,600 Speaker 3: and to be so consistent and smash your your your 899 00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:58,920 Speaker 3: footy career as you did with everything that was going on, 900 00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:02,800 Speaker 3: that just shows the resilience and the head game that 901 00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:05,279 Speaker 3: you have. Really appreciate you coming on. Thank you for 902 00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:08,680 Speaker 3: your time, legend and listen, Matt, thank you so much. 903 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:12,080 Speaker 3: Keep pushing on, mate, keep staying strong. And last last 904 00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:14,080 Speaker 3: question before we go, we have to be quick, but 905 00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:19,480 Speaker 3: as you wanted to be your father, is there any 906 00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:22,720 Speaker 3: of your sons that want to be Matt Rogers? 907 00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:27,560 Speaker 2: Well, I think my oldest son tried, but he did 908 00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:29,960 Speaker 2: maybe you want to be a footballer, but realized that, 909 00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:32,919 Speaker 2: you know, it probably wasn't for him. But my young 910 00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:35,880 Speaker 2: my youngest son, who's Ailien, he's autistic, So Mat, he 911 00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:39,440 Speaker 2: has taught me a world of things that got me 912 00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:41,640 Speaker 2: involved in things that I would never have been involved 913 00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:44,439 Speaker 2: in prior. So I'm so grateful for the lessons he's 914 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:46,040 Speaker 2: taught me, rather than the lesson teacher. 915 00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:49,160 Speaker 3: Brilliant mate. Love that what a way to finish Matt, 916 00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:51,160 Speaker 3: You're gentleman. Thank you ever so much. 917 00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:52,080 Speaker 2: Mate's there. 918 00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,799 Speaker 3: Matt's memoir A Father's Son is out now. I link 919 00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:01,680 Speaker 3: the details in the show notes. I appreciate you taking 920 00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:06,040 Speaker 3: the time to listen to Headgame. If you enjoyed this episode, 921 00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:09,680 Speaker 3: please feel free to share it with a friend. I'm 922 00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,640 Speaker 3: at Middleton. See you again next time.