1 00:00:04,019 --> 00:00:06,390 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,390 --> 00:00:11,099 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. Cryptocurrency investors haven't had the easiest run over the 3 00:00:11,099 --> 00:00:14,400 Sean Aylmer: past few months or year or so. Bitcoin fell dramatically 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:16,770 Sean Aylmer: from its peak 18 months ago, and the reputation of 5 00:00:16,770 --> 00:00:19,290 Sean Aylmer: the whole crypto space took a major hit from the 6 00:00:19,290 --> 00:00:23,130 Sean Aylmer: collapse of trading platform FTX. But things seems to be 7 00:00:23,130 --> 00:00:26,280 Sean Aylmer: looking up, with Bitcoins now recovering its value since the 8 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:29,279 Sean Aylmer: failure of Celsius and FTX. I wanted to have a 9 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:31,349 Sean Aylmer: closer look at the sector, the outlook and the mood 10 00:00:31,349 --> 00:00:34,649 Sean Aylmer: right now among crypto investors. Of course, this is general 11 00:00:34,650 --> 00:00:38,370 Sean Aylmer: information only, and you should certainly seek professional advice before 12 00:00:38,370 --> 00:00:42,180 Sean Aylmer: making investment decisions. Josh Gilbert is a market analyst at 13 00:00:42,180 --> 00:00:46,110 Sean Aylmer: social investment network eToro, which is a supporter of this 14 00:00:46,110 --> 00:00:48,450 Sean Aylmer: podcast. Josh, welcome back to Fear and Greed. 15 00:00:49,170 --> 00:00:50,309 Josh Gilbert: Thank you for having me back, Sean. 16 00:00:50,969 --> 00:00:53,220 Sean Aylmer: Been quite the ride for crypto investors, hasn't it? 17 00:00:54,300 --> 00:00:56,910 Josh Gilbert: Yeah, I think that's a modest way to put it. 18 00:00:57,660 --> 00:00:59,130 Josh Gilbert: I think we could maybe even go as far as 19 00:00:59,130 --> 00:01:01,740 Josh Gilbert: to say it's been a pretty wild rollercoaster over the 20 00:01:01,740 --> 00:01:07,409 Josh Gilbert: last of 18 months. We saw a 65% fall for Bitcoin in 2022, 21 00:01:07,469 --> 00:01:10,708 Josh Gilbert: but that's a complete turnaround for what we've seen this 22 00:01:10,709 --> 00:01:14,580 Josh Gilbert: year where the assets up about 82%. So we've certainly 23 00:01:14,580 --> 00:01:15,510 Josh Gilbert: seen the ups and downs. 24 00:01:16,140 --> 00:01:19,259 Sean Aylmer: So just take us through that last six months or 25 00:01:19,260 --> 00:01:25,770 Sean Aylmer: since the failure of Celsius and FTX. Why have cryptocurrencies, and Bitcoin's 26 00:01:26,039 --> 00:01:28,920 Sean Aylmer: a good example obviously, it's the biggest cryptocurrency, why have 27 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:29,910 Sean Aylmer: they bounced since then? 28 00:01:30,990 --> 00:01:33,450 Josh Gilbert: Well, so I think the main driver of this recent 29 00:01:33,450 --> 00:01:36,390 Josh Gilbert: rally that we've seen has been the expectations of a 30 00:01:36,390 --> 00:01:40,979 Josh Gilbert: faster fall in inflation and a sooner than expected cut 31 00:01:40,980 --> 00:01:45,330 Josh Gilbert: to rates, particularly in the US, with investors therefore feeling 32 00:01:45,330 --> 00:01:48,630 Josh Gilbert: they can be more confident in taking on risk. If 33 00:01:48,630 --> 00:01:51,720 Josh Gilbert: we go back to, say, at the start of March where 34 00:01:52,140 --> 00:01:56,670 Josh Gilbert: the real start of this rally came from, right at 35 00:01:56,670 --> 00:01:58,769 Josh Gilbert: the start of March, we had the expectations for at 36 00:01:58,770 --> 00:02:01,710 Josh Gilbert: least a few more hikes coming from the Federal Reserve 37 00:02:02,190 --> 00:02:05,519 Josh Gilbert: and the expectations of absolutely no rate cuts this year. Well, fast- 38 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:09,389 Josh Gilbert: forward to now, well, that's significantly changed, and that's why 39 00:02:09,389 --> 00:02:14,309 Josh Gilbert: we've seen such a significant rally from crypto. We obviously 40 00:02:14,309 --> 00:02:18,360 Josh Gilbert: broke through a significant barrier in US$ 30,000 (Bitcoin) over the last 41 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,690 Josh Gilbert: week or so. That's been building up for the last 42 00:02:21,690 --> 00:02:24,660 Josh Gilbert: sort of few weeks. That's really important for a number 43 00:02:24,660 --> 00:02:27,480 Josh Gilbert: of reasons, and the first one is because it's a 44 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:31,260 Josh Gilbert: huge psychological level for investors when you're building up to 45 00:02:31,260 --> 00:02:34,048 Josh Gilbert: a big resistance level, whether you're in stocks or crypto 46 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,980 Josh Gilbert: and you break through that, for an investor's mindset, that's huge. 47 00:02:38,370 --> 00:02:42,119 Josh Gilbert: The second is that it's also a big barrier because 48 00:02:42,150 --> 00:02:44,639 Josh Gilbert: this is the highest price that we've seen since the 49 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:48,750 Josh Gilbert: issues that we had last year, so from Luna to FTX, 50 00:02:49,020 --> 00:02:51,209 Josh Gilbert: and we are now back above that. So that's a 51 00:02:51,210 --> 00:02:52,619 Josh Gilbert: big milestone in that sense. 52 00:02:53,610 --> 00:02:57,390 Sean Aylmer: Why do people hold Bitcoin? Obviously you have speculators, but 53 00:02:57,450 --> 00:03:02,190 Sean Aylmer: there's many more people in cryptocurrencies than just speculators. What 54 00:03:02,190 --> 00:03:04,560 Sean Aylmer: is it? Is it the fact that it's a play 55 00:03:04,980 --> 00:03:08,429 Sean Aylmer: against inflation? Is it a risk on asset? What is 56 00:03:08,429 --> 00:03:10,710 Sean Aylmer: it? What's the reason people hold it? 57 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:13,830 Josh Gilbert: Yeah, and that's a great question because I think there's 58 00:03:13,830 --> 00:03:16,949 Josh Gilbert: plenty of different answers to this. As you say, there's 59 00:03:16,949 --> 00:03:21,419 Josh Gilbert: the speculation, there's the idea of this asset being a 60 00:03:21,419 --> 00:03:25,320 Josh Gilbert: store of value given that it has a finite supply, only 21 61 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:30,360 Josh Gilbert: million Bitcoin in issuance. As we say, that there then 62 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:33,780 Josh Gilbert: obviously gives it the factor of being a hedge against inflation. 63 00:03:33,780 --> 00:03:38,280 Josh Gilbert: But also more recently, I think that has helped highlight Bitcoin's 64 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:43,080 Josh Gilbert: fundamentals is obviously the banking issues that we've seen play 65 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,770 Josh Gilbert: out in the US over the last six to eight weeks. 66 00:03:47,130 --> 00:03:50,280 Josh Gilbert: That has helped, I think, lead the narrative of investors 67 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:56,520 Josh Gilbert: turning towards decentralised assets when centralised systems fail. Bitcoin has 68 00:03:56,580 --> 00:04:00,090 Josh Gilbert: proven to be a store of value that doesn't see 69 00:04:00,090 --> 00:04:03,390 Josh Gilbert: investors face issues that we have seen from holding capital in 70 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:08,549 Josh Gilbert: a bank. Again, when those banking issues were occurring, Bitcoin 71 00:04:08,549 --> 00:04:12,600 Josh Gilbert: continued to do its thing. It settled transactions in seconds. 72 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:17,730 Josh Gilbert: It allowed consumers access to their capital with no middleman, 73 00:04:17,730 --> 00:04:20,969 Josh Gilbert: no centralised system. I think that's really important. More than 74 00:04:20,970 --> 00:04:23,730 Josh Gilbert: ever people are wanting to take control of their finances, 75 00:04:24,029 --> 00:04:26,789 Josh Gilbert: more people are wanting to essentially become their own bank. 76 00:04:27,210 --> 00:04:29,880 Josh Gilbert: I think we're a long way off of this being 77 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:34,110 Josh Gilbert: global adoption in the sense of that happening. But I 78 00:04:34,110 --> 00:04:36,060 Josh Gilbert: think over the last two years when we go back 79 00:04:36,060 --> 00:04:38,700 Josh Gilbert: to things like geopolitical tensions thrown in there as well, 80 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,149 Josh Gilbert: now these banking issues, people are turning away from centralised 81 00:04:42,150 --> 00:04:44,099 Josh Gilbert: systems and, as I say, want to take control of 82 00:04:44,099 --> 00:04:47,729 Josh Gilbert: their finances. So there are plenty of reasons why people 83 00:04:47,730 --> 00:04:50,520 Josh Gilbert: hold Bitcoin, but just more recently in the last six 84 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:54,630 Josh Gilbert: to eight weeks it's that idea of owning your capital 85 00:04:54,630 --> 00:04:55,740 Josh Gilbert: and being in control. 86 00:04:56,130 --> 00:04:58,258 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Josh, we'll be back in a minute. 87 00:05:04,139 --> 00:05:09,570 Sean Aylmer: I'm speaking to Josh Gilbert from eToro. Has the cryptocurrency 88 00:05:09,570 --> 00:05:12,060 Sean Aylmer: sector been cleaned out over the past 12 months or so? 89 00:05:12,060 --> 00:05:14,730 Sean Aylmer: I say that in a positive sense. There was a 90 00:05:14,730 --> 00:05:19,380 Sean Aylmer: period there where a celebrity would put out a cryptocurrency and it would rise 91 00:05:19,380 --> 00:05:23,009 Sean Aylmer: and fall ridiculous amounts, Elon Musk would tweet things... I 92 00:05:23,010 --> 00:05:24,660 Sean Aylmer: mean actually there's a bit of that going on still. 93 00:05:24,900 --> 00:05:29,310 Sean Aylmer: But is it actually a better sector now in a sense? 94 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,809 Josh Gilbert: I think so, yes. I think that the way that the 95 00:05:33,809 --> 00:05:37,289 Josh Gilbert: industry has transformed over the last 12 months is certainly 96 00:05:37,290 --> 00:05:41,488 Josh Gilbert: for the better. I think what we've seen in terms 97 00:05:41,490 --> 00:05:45,510 Josh Gilbert: of the outperformance in Bitcoin compared to altcoins shows that. 98 00:05:45,539 --> 00:05:50,580 Josh Gilbert: Altcoins, essentially we consider those as a smaller assets. 99 00:05:51,389 --> 00:05:54,720 Sean Aylmer: Sorry, just define for me what altcoins are. 100 00:05:55,020 --> 00:05:59,279 Josh Gilbert: Yeah, so essentially it's an alternative coin. Essentially it's an 101 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:02,250 Josh Gilbert: alternative coin to, say, the larger assets that you may 102 00:06:02,250 --> 00:06:07,860 Josh Gilbert: get such as Bitcoin, Ethereum, Cardano, those sorts of assets. So it's 103 00:06:07,860 --> 00:06:11,159 Josh Gilbert: a smaller asset that is maybe up and coming. Think 104 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,789 Josh Gilbert: about it maybe similar to a stock, the IPOs, or 105 00:06:14,790 --> 00:06:17,339 Josh Gilbert: that is a bit of a disruptive tech stock. That's 106 00:06:17,339 --> 00:06:20,460 Josh Gilbert: how we could sort of consider it. And it's the 107 00:06:20,460 --> 00:06:24,060 Josh Gilbert: same way we see it with stocks in an environment 108 00:06:24,060 --> 00:06:27,630 Josh Gilbert: where if investors are feeling a little bit uneasy, they 109 00:06:27,630 --> 00:06:29,669 Josh Gilbert: will turn to those bigger assets, they'll turn to big 110 00:06:29,670 --> 00:06:32,129 Josh Gilbert: tech, and they'll sell out a disruptive tech. But it's 111 00:06:32,130 --> 00:06:34,649 Josh Gilbert: the same thing that we've seen in crypto. Investors are 112 00:06:34,650 --> 00:06:39,599 Josh Gilbert: less willing to move into those smaller crypto assets and 113 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:44,909 Josh Gilbert: instead are seeking haven in assets such as Bitcoin and Ethereum. That is 114 00:06:44,910 --> 00:06:49,469 Josh Gilbert: evident this year because Bitcoin is outperforming those smaller old 115 00:06:49,469 --> 00:06:53,488 Josh Gilbert: coins in this current rally. Which, given previous rallies, is 116 00:06:53,490 --> 00:06:56,250 Josh Gilbert: actually unusual. It's usually the other way around. We usually 117 00:06:56,250 --> 00:07:00,029 Josh Gilbert: tend to see those smaller assets outperform. And as you 118 00:07:00,029 --> 00:07:04,620 Josh Gilbert: say, I think when something fails, consumers get worried, and 119 00:07:04,620 --> 00:07:07,349 Josh Gilbert: I think that's the case with everything. I think in 120 00:07:07,349 --> 00:07:10,500 Josh Gilbert: terms of the regulation, as you say, has stepped up 121 00:07:10,500 --> 00:07:14,070 Josh Gilbert: in terms of weeding out those bad actors. I think 122 00:07:14,070 --> 00:07:18,630 Josh Gilbert: that's great because that is fantastic for educating and protecting 123 00:07:18,630 --> 00:07:22,080 Josh Gilbert: investors, but I think it also should help find that 124 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:25,799 Josh Gilbert: balance as well between allowing this technology to thrive and 125 00:07:25,799 --> 00:07:29,279 Josh Gilbert: deliver real benefits. There's a balance there, and I think 126 00:07:29,279 --> 00:07:31,860 Josh Gilbert: that as long as we can find that middle ground, 127 00:07:32,070 --> 00:07:32,970 Josh Gilbert: then we're going to be okay. 128 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:38,010 Sean Aylmer: And presumably the longer that digital currencies survive, the stronger 129 00:07:38,010 --> 00:07:40,680 Sean Aylmer: they become, or at least the stronger the better ones become. 130 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,339 Josh Gilbert: Absolutely. Yeah, so I think in terms of adoption, that's 131 00:07:44,340 --> 00:07:49,560 Josh Gilbert: really important. So if these assets have use cases and 132 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:53,430 Josh Gilbert: they have something that they can provide to an everyday society, 133 00:07:53,550 --> 00:07:55,560 Josh Gilbert: then they're going to be here for the long run. 134 00:07:56,099 --> 00:07:58,980 Josh Gilbert: I think I use Ethereum as a great example because 135 00:07:59,010 --> 00:08:02,340 Josh Gilbert: it's what we would probably look at as the pinnacle 136 00:08:02,340 --> 00:08:07,140 Josh Gilbert: of decentralised finance. It's trying to revolutionise how we look 137 00:08:07,140 --> 00:08:11,460 Josh Gilbert: at digital finance. It's basically the sounding board for much 138 00:08:11,460 --> 00:08:15,510 Josh Gilbert: of what goes on in decentralised finance. I think that's 139 00:08:15,570 --> 00:08:19,530 Josh Gilbert: really important for a number of reasons in terms of, 140 00:08:19,530 --> 00:08:23,129 Josh Gilbert: as you say, that adoption and these assets growing. We've 141 00:08:23,129 --> 00:08:26,400 Josh Gilbert: seen a bit of a slowdown in the last 12 to 18 142 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:30,000 Josh Gilbert: months with institutional adoption, which is fair given, I think, 143 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:32,280 Josh Gilbert: what's happened in the industry. But that is going to 144 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:35,130 Josh Gilbert: be a key catalyst, I think, for us to move 145 00:08:35,130 --> 00:08:38,039 Josh Gilbert: to that next level. Retail investors can only move this 146 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:41,159 Josh Gilbert: asset so far. Institutions are that next step. And I'm 147 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,670 Josh Gilbert: talking about your BlackRocks, your Fidelitys, et cetera, to move it to the 148 00:08:44,670 --> 00:08:45,240 Josh Gilbert: next level. 149 00:08:45,750 --> 00:08:49,980 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. What about regulation, is that something that investors should 150 00:08:49,980 --> 00:08:52,740 Sean Aylmer: fear or is it actually something that puts parameters around 151 00:08:52,740 --> 00:08:55,230 Sean Aylmer: it and could help good digital currencies? 152 00:08:56,340 --> 00:08:59,760 Josh Gilbert: Yeah, I think at the moment it is worrying investors. 153 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:03,300 Josh Gilbert: There's a lot of conversation around regulation across the broader 154 00:09:03,300 --> 00:09:07,559 Josh Gilbert: market over the last four months, especially this year. I 155 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:09,270 Josh Gilbert: think that just comes from what we saw last year, 156 00:09:09,270 --> 00:09:13,980 Josh Gilbert: which given, I think it's a completely fair question mark 157 00:09:13,980 --> 00:09:16,858 Josh Gilbert: from regulators to ask. There was, unfortunately, a lot of 158 00:09:16,859 --> 00:09:20,130 Josh Gilbert: people that were affected by what happened in 2022, so 159 00:09:20,429 --> 00:09:23,160 Josh Gilbert: we knew that there was going to be more scrutiny 160 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:26,220 Josh Gilbert: for the sector. But I think in terms of regulatory 161 00:09:26,220 --> 00:09:29,160 Josh Gilbert: measures that are explored, as I said earlier, I think 162 00:09:29,580 --> 00:09:32,699 Josh Gilbert: as long as we can protect investors and educate investors, 163 00:09:32,700 --> 00:09:36,359 Josh Gilbert: then I think that's the key here. We really want 164 00:09:36,359 --> 00:09:40,650 Josh Gilbert: to see this asset help to deliver benefits to the 165 00:09:40,650 --> 00:09:45,540 Josh Gilbert: financial service sector, but also help to facilitate greater financial 166 00:09:45,540 --> 00:09:49,710 Josh Gilbert: inclusion globally as well. And maybe it's not that we 167 00:09:49,710 --> 00:09:52,799 Josh Gilbert: have to rely on centralised systems, maybe we can use 168 00:09:52,799 --> 00:09:55,858 Josh Gilbert: decentralised systems, but that's not going to happen for a 169 00:09:55,860 --> 00:09:58,740 Josh Gilbert: long time until we can actually trust what's going on 170 00:09:58,740 --> 00:10:02,040 Josh Gilbert: from a decentralised standpoint. A lot of people getting into 171 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:06,809 Josh Gilbert: crypto would've thought, " Oh, if I'm investing via Luna, it's decentralised, 172 00:10:06,809 --> 00:10:09,839 Josh Gilbert: then I have access to my own money." Well, that's 173 00:10:09,839 --> 00:10:11,669 Josh Gilbert: not always the case, and I think that just comes 174 00:10:11,940 --> 00:10:14,940 Josh Gilbert: from education, which is what we are really trying to 175 00:10:14,940 --> 00:10:17,730 Josh Gilbert: do and I think what regulation can help with, but 176 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:19,560 Josh Gilbert: it really has to be done in the right way. 177 00:10:20,099 --> 00:10:23,039 Sean Aylmer: Finally, central bank digital currencies, I never quite know where 178 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:25,830 Sean Aylmer: they fit in the spectrum of what we're talking about here. 179 00:10:26,730 --> 00:10:30,090 Josh Gilbert: Yeah, well it's a good question because they're still being 180 00:10:30,090 --> 00:10:34,708 Josh Gilbert: explored, they're still being investigated. I think the US have 181 00:10:34,740 --> 00:10:38,819 Josh Gilbert: put out a bill to look into it. We've seen 182 00:10:39,090 --> 00:10:41,880 Josh Gilbert: China probably lead the way in that sense with its 183 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:44,880 Josh Gilbert: digital yuan. They've been in development for that for a 184 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,819 Josh Gilbert: long time. I think the difference that we're seeing with 185 00:10:47,820 --> 00:10:51,360 Josh Gilbert: CBDCs is that it goes back to that idea of 186 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:54,990 Josh Gilbert: being centralized. You're going back through a centralized system again 187 00:10:54,990 --> 00:10:57,780 Josh Gilbert: where, yes, it's a digital currency, but it's still controlled 188 00:10:57,780 --> 00:11:01,230 Josh Gilbert: by a central bank. Essentially what we're looking at here is 189 00:11:01,889 --> 00:11:04,949 Josh Gilbert: I think the pandemic highlighted more than ever the use 190 00:11:04,949 --> 00:11:09,090 Josh Gilbert: case of digital assets. I think that comes from the 191 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:14,250 Josh Gilbert: consumers and businesses wanting access to assets, money and fast. 192 00:11:14,429 --> 00:11:16,740 Josh Gilbert: I think we saw that with the stimulus that we 193 00:11:16,740 --> 00:11:20,099 Josh Gilbert: saw from central banks across the globe. We know that 194 00:11:20,099 --> 00:11:22,949 Josh Gilbert: these assets can be sent and received much quicker than 195 00:11:22,949 --> 00:11:27,270 Josh Gilbert: traditional FIAT currencies that we have right now, such as 196 00:11:27,510 --> 00:11:31,260 Josh Gilbert: the payments networks that are already in place. I think 197 00:11:31,260 --> 00:11:33,240 Josh Gilbert: there's a long way to go. I'm not sure that 198 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,870 Josh Gilbert: they will really change everything. There's definitely a long way 199 00:11:36,870 --> 00:11:40,199 Josh Gilbert: in terms of implementing these. As I say, I think 200 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:44,760 Josh Gilbert: in a way it can make digital currencies be very, 201 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:47,940 Josh Gilbert: very centralized, and I don't think that's what crypto is 202 00:11:47,940 --> 00:11:50,549 Josh Gilbert: about. But there's still going to be years and years, 203 00:11:50,550 --> 00:11:54,420 Josh Gilbert: I think, of investigations and research into these assets before 204 00:11:54,420 --> 00:11:57,480 Josh Gilbert: they're really rolled out by central banks. But they're certainly 205 00:11:57,480 --> 00:11:58,680 Josh Gilbert: being explored, that's for sure. 206 00:11:59,129 --> 00:12:01,140 Sean Aylmer: It is a great space. Josh, thank you for talking 207 00:12:01,140 --> 00:12:01,950 Sean Aylmer: to Fear and Greed. 208 00:12:02,309 --> 00:12:03,059 Josh Gilbert: Thanks for having me. 209 00:12:03,570 --> 00:12:06,600 Sean Aylmer: That was Josh Gilbert, market analyst at social investment network 210 00:12:06,630 --> 00:12:10,078 Sean Aylmer: eToro, which is a supporter of this podcast. This is 211 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:12,300 Sean Aylmer: the Fear and Greed daily interview. Remember, this is general 212 00:12:12,300 --> 00:12:15,480 Sean Aylmer: information only, and you should seek professional advice before making 213 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:18,359 Sean Aylmer: investment decisions. Join us every morning for the full episode 214 00:12:18,359 --> 00:12:21,390 Sean Aylmer: of Fear and Greed, Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm 215 00:12:21,390 --> 00:12:23,010 Sean Aylmer: Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.