Speaker 1: This episode contains discussions of child abuse. If this raises
Speaker 1: any issues for you, support is.
Speaker 2: Available through the links and phone numbers in the show notes.
Speaker 1: Welcome to First things first, I'm Brook Blert and my
Speaker 1: pronouns are she and her.
Speaker 3: I'm Maddie Miles. My pronouns are he and him. And
Speaker 3: before we get started, we'd like to acknowledge the custodiums
Speaker 3: of the land on which we record and for me
Speaker 3: and Brooke today it's the Gatigil people of the or Nation.
Speaker 1: Yes, we've got an exciting guest coming up, the Seal Shackleton,
Speaker 1: who is a lot of things which.
Speaker 4: Will jump into let's go.
Speaker 2: Welcome, Welcome, thank you, thank you for having me. It's
Speaker 2: great to be here.
Speaker 1: So tell us a little bit about your job, your profession,
Speaker 1: who you are, where you're from. We always say who's
Speaker 1: your mom? Where's you from? But later.
Speaker 2: Lucille she her pronouns. I grew up in Sydney and
Speaker 2: I've kind of done a range of different things. I
Speaker 2: got into relationship therapy and sex therapy in all honesty
Speaker 2: because of my my own experiences. It's an area of
Speaker 2: interest for me. And you know, when I was younger,
Speaker 2: I had challenge it. Wow, I mean we all have
Speaker 2: challenges in relationships, but it really kind of was born
Speaker 2: out of that desire to understand my own challenges in relationships.
Speaker 2: So I started by studying a Bachelor of behavioral Science.
Speaker 2: I went on to study counseling public health and then
Speaker 2: did sexology or psychosexual therapy. So I now kind of
Speaker 2: specialize in relationships and in sex therapy, and yeah, I
Speaker 2: help people improve their relationship, dating and their sex lives.
Speaker 3: Can I ask what is sexology?
Speaker 2: Sexology is the study of sex, sexuality, sexual experiences, your
Speaker 2: relationship with yourself as a sexual being. So it's everything
Speaker 2: around sex, intimacy, and your experiences as a sexual or
Speaker 2: erotic being. So it covers sexual health, it covers intimacy.
Speaker 2: It's kind of a really broad area. So when someone
Speaker 2: says that they're a sexologist, usually they have some sort
Speaker 2: of formal training in sex, gender, sexuality, intimacy, and those
Speaker 2: sorts of areas, and often that kind of filters through
Speaker 2: to relationships. But one of the reasons I kind of
Speaker 2: say that I specialize in both is because when I
Speaker 2: was I started out as a relationship therapist and through
Speaker 2: working with people and you know, sex often comes into
Speaker 2: the sessions when you're working with people on the relation
Speaker 2: on their relationships. When I studied all the kind of
Speaker 2: main frameworks for relationship therapy, there was a very little
Speaker 2: conversation or teaching about sex, and so I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: I didn't feel prepared to really navigate with people. I
Speaker 2: was like, why don't I know this if I've studied
Speaker 2: all this stuff, And so I went and got a
Speaker 2: master's in sexology or psycho sexual therapy to kind of
Speaker 2: give me more skills and tools to help people.
Speaker 1: It's not really taught a lot in high school. I mean,
Speaker 1: my very very little sex education was coming from a
Speaker 1: sealed section in a Cosmopolitan magazine or a girlfriend magazine.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you knew what both. You know,
Speaker 1: the seal section, you rip it and it'd be like
Speaker 1: how to give the best blowjob or something like that happen, Yeah, seriously,
Speaker 1: And I did have exist, but they just come back.
Speaker 1: So Cosmos just come back and they've got a seal.
Speaker 3: Section now, so it's like it's seal.
Speaker 1: So yeah, like you can peel So it's like a
Speaker 1: sealed little magazine within a magazine, and you kind of
Speaker 1: peel it off and it's.
Speaker 4: Got all this sort of like but that's for me.
Speaker 1: I don't think that's really like a healthy way because
Speaker 1: like why does it need to be sealed?
Speaker 4: Like why is it?
Speaker 1: Is it covering up in it? It's like in this
Speaker 1: secret and it's like, well, no.
Speaker 3: That's true.
Speaker 1: And I think like growing up, that was the very
Speaker 1: little education that I had around sex. I mean, I
Speaker 1: know that's some really awesome advocates around consent. I think
Speaker 1: Chantel Contest do you know her, Yeah, she has put
Speaker 1: in a lot of consent ledg or for that legislation
Speaker 1: to be in schools. I think as well. I think
Speaker 1: that's a big improvement around consent personally. What would you
Speaker 1: say like has been the biggest barrier? I think, you know,
Speaker 1: in what you've researched over the time that you've been
Speaker 1: in relationship and sexologists, I.
Speaker 2: Think if we go with the theme of kind of
Speaker 2: what you're talking about, and that is sex education. So
Speaker 2: I used to work in shelters with teens and it
Speaker 2: was really evident to me the lack of information out there.
Speaker 2: And I think what I've really noticed with young people
Speaker 2: is that, especially for kids within the queer community, the
Speaker 2: information that they're getting is very heteronormative. So the most
Speaker 2: of the education that people are receiving in schools is
Speaker 2: very heteronormative, so it may not actually be relevant for
Speaker 2: their relationships or their sexual experiences, which then leads people
Speaker 2: to access information on the internet. And I think this
Speaker 2: is the biggest challenge that we have today. It's that
Speaker 2: young people are accessing a lot of education through things
Speaker 2: like porn, and that doesn't cover things like consent, It
Speaker 2: doesn't cover things like safe sex practices and condom use.
Speaker 2: And it is also, you know, very geared towards certain
Speaker 2: ways of achieving pleasure, and so I think it's created
Speaker 2: this very skewed understanding of sex, and I think it
Speaker 2: really stunts people's development of their sexual self confidence and
Speaker 2: embracing themselves and feeling comfortable with them in themselves.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like there's a whole generation of men
Speaker 3: who just sort of putting their own needs, I suppose,
Speaker 3: all their own wants above women, you know when it
Speaker 3: comes to sex. When you were doing your masters, was
Speaker 3: there much like teaching on same sex?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I did a subject specifically on sex, gender and sexuality,
Speaker 2: and it was amazing.
Speaker 4: I wanted to do that yeah, I feel like I
Speaker 4: would learn.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so much more about myself more than about
Speaker 1: other people's stuff.
Speaker 4: I feel like this case study is me.
Speaker 2: It's fascinating because I think what it helps you kind
Speaker 2: of unpack is just how socially conditioned we all are
Speaker 2: from the experiences we've had growing up around what relationships
Speaker 2: should look like, what sex should look like. And I
Speaker 2: think this is one of the big challenges I have
Speaker 2: with social media. I think social media has a lot
Speaker 2: of really gendered messages that we've seen dating and relationships.
Speaker 2: And whilst you know, I think social media is an
Speaker 2: incredible platform to access information, it's really important to be
Speaker 2: really discerning around who you're getting that information from.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I feel like that's my biggest struggle.
Speaker 1: I think working with you kind of re educating them
Speaker 1: to not trust everything that they're reading, listening to, or
Speaker 1: watching on TikTok and these other platforms, because I think,
Speaker 1: you know, they kind of take it for Bible because
Speaker 1: they have such easy access to it, and it's like
Speaker 1: it's terrifying, it's so scary.
Speaker 3: Would you say that consent is something that is like
Speaker 3: a top tier priority when it comes to sexual education
Speaker 3: in schools? Or what do you think is like absolutely.
Speaker 2: I think this is the thing. Like if we think
Speaker 2: about sex, and you know, people are often focused on
Speaker 2: like pleasure, how can we have good sex? We can't
Speaker 2: have good sex unless we feel safe. We can't feel
Speaker 2: safe if we don't have consent. And I think consent
Speaker 2: is a consistent conversation. It is, you know, a question
Speaker 2: that you ask, but it's also continual in our you know,
Speaker 2: learning how to respond to one another, how to tune
Speaker 2: into one another, how to listen for cues in order
Speaker 2: to keep kind of having that consistent conversation. And even
Speaker 2: if that's not verbal all the time, it's you know,
Speaker 2: learning to kind of tune into your partner and check
Speaker 2: in with them and see where they're at. And it's
Speaker 2: things like after care. It's not just like do you
Speaker 2: want to do this now? It's also like how was
Speaker 2: that for you? You know, how did you feel? How
Speaker 2: did you experience?
Speaker 3: That? Is?
Speaker 4: I love a debrief.
Speaker 2: And like you know what you need after do you
Speaker 2: want paddles? Like to feel close? And I think even
Speaker 2: just things like that, I think the way that consent
Speaker 2: is often taught to young people, well, sex in general,
Speaker 2: I think is very fear focused. It's very like focused
Speaker 2: on contraception, you know, safe sex practices, like how to
Speaker 2: use a condom, all of that sort of stuff, But
Speaker 2: it's not like, and I don't know, part of me
Speaker 2: thinks like, how how could we teach it in a
Speaker 2: way that's actually going to empower people rather than scare them.
Speaker 4: Yeah, because like if you.
Speaker 2: Think about sex education that TV show right, like, it
Speaker 2: was all about empowering young people to make choices, and
Speaker 2: you know, the more information you have and the more
Speaker 2: confident you feel in yourself, the more you can navigate
Speaker 2: these difficult conversations.
Speaker 4: Around that that don't seem so scary.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Like I remember, even in my adult life,
Speaker 1: like learning so much stuff about myself and then having
Speaker 1: the confidence because it wasn't so scary because I sort
Speaker 1: of broke that barrier because I'd made like felt confident
Speaker 1: enough to say things or ask things or just you know,
Speaker 1: go kind of like go for it in a way
Speaker 1: where it's comfortable and consensual.
Speaker 4: But then it wasn't so scary.
Speaker 1: After that, I was like, oh, okay, yeah, not to
Speaker 1: like bring it down or anything like that.
Speaker 4: But I think my experience with sex were.
Speaker 1: Like first times were like non consensual, and I knew
Speaker 1: that it was wrong, Like I guess my first like
Speaker 1: full transparency, and I'm okay with talking about this because
Speaker 1: I also am in therapy and I feel.
Speaker 4: Like that I've got support.
Speaker 1: But I was molested when I was younger, and that
Speaker 1: was a boundary that well, I didn't even know what
Speaker 1: boundaries were at that age, and I didn't even know
Speaker 1: what they were really more into like my early twenty
Speaker 1: twenties or mid twenties really, but so my first like
Speaker 1: sexual encounter for pleasure per se was not I guess,
Speaker 1: enjoyable either, because I'd already I'd already had this misconstrued
Speaker 1: idea of what sex was and what pleasure was, and
Speaker 1: like I thought that it this is kind of fucked up,
Speaker 1: but I thought it meant to hurt and that's not okay.
Speaker 1: And so it's like pleasure wasn't pleasure for me for
Speaker 1: a very long time, and it wasn't until like I actually, yeah,
Speaker 1: learned more about myself and I had someone who I
Speaker 1: felt comfortable enough to communicate and talk to about my
Speaker 1: needs and my wants later in life that it all
Speaker 1: changed for me. And I think that's like a very
Speaker 1: common thing I think for a lot of women, which
Speaker 1: kind of terrifies me and fucking scares me.
Speaker 4: About it, because.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have a different relationship to sex now, but
Speaker 1: when I was younger, it was a very fucking confusing
Speaker 1: navigation for me, like hugely, And I think that's probably
Speaker 1: why I'm so motivate to make sure that I'm saying
Speaker 1: and doing the right things for other young people because
Speaker 1: I feel like a pressure to to to them for
Speaker 1: them to not go through that, but then also to
Speaker 1: have the confidence and exploration and voice voice is a
Speaker 1: huge thing to ask the right questions and to have
Speaker 1: those boundaries. I think, yeah, that was an overshare apology
Speaker 1: if but apologize sex for me like I enjoy it now,
Speaker 1: but previous to my Yeah, I've had my boundaries cross
Speaker 1: so many times throughout my life.
Speaker 4: It's not okay.
Speaker 2: I just want to say that I'm sorry that you
Speaker 2: had that experience, and I think it's incredibly powerful that
Speaker 2: you share that on a platform like this, because what
Speaker 2: I can tell you is that I have worked with
Speaker 2: so many women who struggle to enjoy sex as a
Speaker 2: result of sexual experiences that they have had with their
Speaker 2: boundaries have been cross where they have been hurt, and
Speaker 2: I think the more that people's voices are shared, there's
Speaker 2: so much healing that comes from that. So I just
Speaker 2: wanted to say thank you for sharing that, and also
Speaker 2: I'm sorry that that's what you've experienced.
Speaker 1: I've found a lot of the time that I have
Speaker 1: shared with other women per se like they've gone through
Speaker 1: similar experience, which is actually awful. And then I think of,
Speaker 1: oh my god, if I'm going through this, you're going
Speaker 1: through this. Have other young people gone through this? And
Speaker 1: I think that's what I get so terrified for. But
Speaker 1: I think, you know, I wrote a book a couple
Speaker 1: of years ago, and one of the biggest challenges for
Speaker 1: me writing that book was having the confidence to be like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm going to share something really fucking vulnerable and it's
Speaker 1: going to be terrifying, but I think it's the right
Speaker 1: thing to do. I think I need to do this
Speaker 1: because it's not just for me. It's like, if it's
Speaker 1: for future women, it's for future people, however they identify it.
Speaker 1: But I think like sharing that, I've had a fuck
Speaker 1: ton of messages from people who have gone through similar
Speaker 1: and are so grateful that I have, And so that
Speaker 1: kind of keeps me ticking over. I guess in a
Speaker 1: way that I feel okay about it. It still sucks
Speaker 1: sometimes when I think about, you know, I was a child,
Speaker 1: I was young.
Speaker 4: It didn't happen just you know once.
Speaker 1: It happened more than a few times, and it was
Speaker 1: from people close to me and my family. So that's
Speaker 1: also a fucked thing to think that that breaks a
Speaker 1: barrier within my own family relationships, right, And I'm so
Speaker 1: glad that I have got the skills and the mentality
Speaker 1: to sort of overcome that and keep pursuing and keep persisting.
Speaker 1: But it also just it created a little bit of
Speaker 1: a resentment, I guess in like an openness to have
Speaker 1: sex and to have relationships. And I think it's also
Speaker 1: been part of the biggest barrier I've had with the
Speaker 1: relationships and sex combined, because you know, like you said,
Speaker 1: the hand in hand. Yeah, And I think like the
Speaker 1: more I learn about myself and the more I sort
Speaker 1: of don't blame myself and forgive myself and sort of
Speaker 1: you know, use it as a like a fucking superpower,
Speaker 1: sometimes I'm like, fuck that.
Speaker 4: It makes me feel a bit better.
Speaker 1: I guess it doesn't take the scars away, but I
Speaker 1: think like it makes them like hurt. Last I appreciate
Speaker 1: when people like say that it was a fucking shitty thing,
Speaker 1: like I'm.
Speaker 4: Like, yeah it was. For years, I was very silent
Speaker 4: about it.
Speaker 3: What does a healthy relationship look like? To you? As
Speaker 3: a therapist who have worked with many different relationships and couples,
Speaker 3: you know, what does a healthy relationship look like? And
Speaker 3: what does maybe a healthy conversation look like when it
Speaker 3: comes to intimacy.
Speaker 2: I think for anyone, safety and respect within relationships and
Speaker 2: sexual relationships is incredibly important, But I think it is
Speaker 2: so much more important if someone has had any sort
Speaker 2: of experience where boundaries have been breach, Like create that
Speaker 2: safe environment is so essential to build that trust and
Speaker 2: that foundation in order to really be able to let
Speaker 2: your walls down right. And sometimes depending on our past experiences,
Speaker 2: I think we all have these ways of protecting ourselves
Speaker 2: depending on our wounds. And so we have our individual wounds,
Speaker 2: we all have our stuff, and then depending on what
Speaker 2: those wounds are, we will create these kind of parts
Speaker 2: of ourselves in order to protect ourselves and to and
Speaker 2: so sometimes we have these parts that may seem somewhat dysfunctional,
Speaker 2: but actually usually they're serving a function. It's just that
Speaker 2: they're serving a protective function function. So often it's about
Speaker 2: I think a really big part of creating a healthy
Speaker 2: relationship is reflecting upon what are my patterns and how
Speaker 2: does my past influence how I show up in relationship
Speaker 2: and engage with other people that patterns.
Speaker 1: And I talk about this with my therapist quite a bit.
Speaker 4: Like he's a.
Speaker 1: Man, he's also neurodivergent, but he's very he's amazing, Like
Speaker 1: I love my therapist, and I think that's a really
Speaker 1: good relationship to have. But I realized like him being
Speaker 1: gay for me was like he's.
Speaker 4: Not a threat. Yeah, he doesn't want me. He doesn't
Speaker 4: want to fuck me.
Speaker 1: And I know that sounds so stupid and quite like
Speaker 1: humorous in this in a fucking stupid way, But that's
Speaker 1: why I love him, because.
Speaker 3: He's even experience to what I would have as a.
Speaker 1: It's a pattern I have because like most of my
Speaker 1: best close friends are all queer, and I feel safe
Speaker 1: within that community. I feel safe within that enviroment, which
Speaker 1: kind of speaks a lot, and I'm working on that.
Speaker 1: But also patterns are like I don't know when we
Speaker 1: when I first saw him, like, he he made me like,
Speaker 1: look out all of the relationships I've had family and
Speaker 1: then also romantic and then my friendships, and how I
Speaker 1: felt that they're you know, what would they think of me?
Speaker 1: Or and like what do they serve me? Like in
Speaker 1: the relationship, Like all these like questions and cues that
Speaker 1: I had and I noticed, like and that's when you
Speaker 1: sort of notice the patterns of like my relationships like
Speaker 1: and why they ended and why they started and the
Speaker 1: intensity of things, you know, when do they ever cross
Speaker 1: a boundary?
Speaker 4: Do they ever make you feel like?
Speaker 1: It was just so interesting And I think patterns is
Speaker 1: such a good way of like starting out to notice things.
Speaker 4: Have you ever done this well?
Speaker 3: I have. I definitely have patterns and habits that I
Speaker 3: don't like think are positive in my life. I feel
Speaker 3: like there are so many like things that I've not
Speaker 3: when I was doing therapy. When I was in therapy,
Speaker 3: I was definitely working on breaking a lot of patterns
Speaker 3: and habits, but also patterns in your partners, you know,
Speaker 3: understanding knowing that they can become quite predictable and understanding
Speaker 3: it's almost like you know what you're going to get
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, because like even with my
Speaker 3: partner now there, I know, I know certain patterns around
Speaker 3: if we have conflict. I know that he hates a
Speaker 3: discussion to find resolve quickly. He needs time. And so
Speaker 3: what I've noticed is every time I've gone in with
Speaker 3: a solution and gone, we should fix this right now,
Speaker 3: give me a kiss and cuddle, let's get over this,
Speaker 3: like trying to fix it straight away, he can't, Like
Speaker 3: he can't meet me there. He needs time. He needs
Speaker 3: like at least a few hours of us not talking, Yeah,
Speaker 3: for his emotions to come down, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, processing time.
Speaker 3: I know that about it.
Speaker 1: You didn't really communicate our needs and wants.
Speaker 4: It's the hardest, that's the thing.
Speaker 3: I guess.
Speaker 1: It's such a sometimes I don't even know what I
Speaker 1: want though, And give me the time to like figure
Speaker 1: that out. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think that it changes in relationship dynamics, you know. So,
Speaker 3: like my sexual needs in my past are completely different
Speaker 3: to what they are now. So it's like almost one
Speaker 3: like a three sixty of the dynamic. So when I
Speaker 3: was with Poor, everything sexual is completely different to what
Speaker 3: I have now, And in both moments, I am experiencing
Speaker 3: my needs so it's like it depends right on the dynamic.
Speaker 2: The dynamic of the relationship influences the sexual dynamic and
Speaker 2: vice versa. Because I think that's the thing, Like we
Speaker 2: get needs met in different ways, and we will show
Speaker 2: up differently according to the relationship that we're in, Like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I think different relationships bring out different sides of us.
Speaker 2: And I agreed, Yeah, it's really key.
Speaker 1: When I'm with a woman, I'm differently different when I'm
Speaker 1: with a man.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a love being with a woman.
Speaker 1: I think it's it's very comfortable, like it's very like
Speaker 1: I don't yeah, I feel saf the man. I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's just like it's.
Speaker 4: A bit clunkier.
Speaker 3: I actually remember having a moment with my partner where
Speaker 3: I was like, I think that I get a different
Speaker 3: version of you than your ex Scott, and you get
Speaker 3: a different version of me than my ex Scott, and
Speaker 3: like us coming to the realization that we are both
Speaker 3: like really good versions of ourselves in this relationship when
Speaker 3: in our past we might have been like hiding parts
Speaker 3: of ourselves or trying to be something else to please
Speaker 3: the other person. I definitely know that was my experience,
Speaker 3: so like I can definitely tell you know, when people say, oh,
Speaker 3: your partner should bring out the best in you, I
Speaker 3: feel like this relationship is the first one that yeah,
Speaker 3: like we've both sort of met there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so, like I've seen a huge shift
Speaker 1: in the last year or so. Yeah, Yeah, I want
Speaker 1: to talk about dating apps, like, I find it's just
Speaker 1: so transactional sometimes.
Speaker 4: Do you feel like.
Speaker 1: The access that we have, like through dating apps is
Speaker 1: not a problem, but do you think it's like causing
Speaker 1: a very different mindset to how relationships establish.
Speaker 2: I guess like, look, I think relationships are really helpful
Speaker 2: in that they allow us to connect with one another,
Speaker 2: and they allow us to connect with people that we
Speaker 2: might not have previously been able to can with. But
Speaker 2: I think the way that they've been set up, they're
Speaker 2: not actually set up in order to help you determine
Speaker 2: whether you can create a healthy relationship with someone. So
Speaker 2: I'm a big believer in healthy relationships being a cocreation.
Speaker 2: You create them together by the way that you show up,
Speaker 2: by the way that you engage, by the way you
Speaker 2: speak to one another, Like it's something that you choose
Speaker 2: moment by moment, and there are certain things that need
Speaker 2: to be really present. In order to create that regardless
Speaker 2: of the relationship structure, you choose things like respect, things
Speaker 2: like kindness, you know, like things like building trust. And
Speaker 2: I think the challenge that I have with dating apps,
Speaker 2: and this is what I hear from a lot of
Speaker 2: people I work with as well, is that it's really
Speaker 2: difficult to determine whether someone has these things on a
Speaker 2: dating app, So you have to get off the dating
Speaker 2: app in order to actually meet someone and form a connection.
Speaker 2: But I think the secondary challenge I have with dating
Speaker 2: apps is I think it's created a bit of a
Speaker 2: throwaway culture where as soon as people go this is
Speaker 2: a little bit hard, or this isn't perfect, I'm moving
Speaker 2: on to.
Speaker 1: Rest and the grass is greener. There's something shinier.
Speaker 2: The grass is greener, There's something shinier. And I think
Speaker 2: the reality for me is what I would say is
Speaker 2: a relationship therapist is I remember my first class in
Speaker 2: like starting specializing relationships. The lecturers said to me, no
Speaker 2: matter who you choose, any relationship will have a certain
Speaker 2: set of issues that you have to be willing to
Speaker 2: deal with for the life of the relationship. Yeah, to me,
Speaker 2: all the time, And so there's always going to be
Speaker 2: something right, Like, it's never going to be perfect. You're
Speaker 2: going to have challenges, You're going to have arguments, But
Speaker 2: can you respect each other throughout that?
Speaker 4: Can you hold on to that love?
Speaker 2: Can you work together to co create the environment that
Speaker 2: you want to experience? And so I think the challenge
Speaker 2: with dating apps is I think people are maybe not
Speaker 2: as willing to put in the work to create something
Speaker 2: really wonderful because because there's something else so accessible, and
Speaker 2: that there's this illusion that it it should it should
Speaker 2: always be easy. And I think that's one of these
Speaker 2: messages that we get it should always actly.
Speaker 3: No, but like it shouldn't be hard.
Speaker 2: No, no, no, don't get me wrong.
Speaker 3: The reason you ask me that is because of what
Speaker 3: I said at the.
Speaker 4: Start, that's right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we had a big DNM. Yeah, and he what
Speaker 1: you're pretty much saying is what he yeah saying.
Speaker 3: Like for me, I've always been a relationship person. So
Speaker 3: I'm someone who likes to like really work through stuff.
Speaker 3: For instance, my previous relationship six years. The last two
Speaker 3: years was me really trying to work through it, like
Speaker 3: trying to get to a point where I thought, Okay,
Speaker 3: it's either yes or no, like and so I'm someone
Speaker 3: who like will make sure that every stone is turned
Speaker 3: before I give up. You know, even with my relationship
Speaker 3: now we've had we've been together a year, and there's
Speaker 3: been moments I'm like, oh, should I walk away? But
Speaker 3: then I find just on the other side of the
Speaker 3: hardness is the deep conversation that I need to understand
Speaker 3: him more. Yeah, and then we get through it. You know,
Speaker 3: I don't know. There's just something about not giving up
Speaker 3: and then getting to the side of that moment that
Speaker 3: can really create a like a deeper connection. And so
Speaker 3: for me those moments of difficulty, I don't throw in
Speaker 3: the tower. And I'm not saying you throw in the towel.
Speaker 3: I'm just saying I'm I do. But but I think
Speaker 3: that there is a culture out there where it's like
Speaker 3: too hard basket, Yeah, they don't do. And I think
Speaker 3: it's some people think it's self preservation. It probably is
Speaker 3: for some people.
Speaker 1: It is for me and moments, but then also there's
Speaker 1: a thing of like it's not that it's not even
Speaker 1: sometimes the them problem, it's a me problem because.
Speaker 3: Or like do you think the grass is greener on
Speaker 3: the other side?
Speaker 1: No, I know a standard and I think of what
Speaker 1: I want, which I think is I want that, Like
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna.
Speaker 4: Say at all.
Speaker 1: And they're all great people, like I'm still friends with
Speaker 1: people that have dated this year blah blah blah, but
Speaker 1: they've said things for like, you know, they've disrespected me
Speaker 1: and said things like speak and round and I don't
Speaker 1: agree with that language. So it's for me, it's not
Speaker 1: a matter of like, oh, the grass is green. It's like, no,
Speaker 1: you haven't done the work. Those words are offensive. I've
Speaker 1: communicated that with you. You've said it again. No, So those
Speaker 1: moments have been throughout this year, Like a few of
Speaker 1: the guys that I've dated have all said those words,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, guys, we're on twenty twenty fucking four, Like,
Speaker 1: if you haven't done the work for me, Like, if
Speaker 1: you're still saying those things, you're not the type of
Speaker 1: the person that I want to be with.
Speaker 4: It's it's a value thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, do you think it's really about the word. It's
Speaker 3: actually what you think is acceptable.
Speaker 1: I agree, and I find it offensive and I feel
Speaker 1: offended by it because I've been called that many times
Speaker 1: and I've communicated those things. I've learned to communicate that's
Speaker 1: the thing. I'm like, look and I'm okay with like
Speaker 1: after the first day, being like, look, it didn't really work,
Speaker 1: Like let's move on, Like you're a really lovely person.
Speaker 1: And I'm still like I said, I'm still friends with
Speaker 1: most of the people I've gone on dates.
Speaker 3: But the opposite, I'm such a people pleaser that I'm like,
Speaker 3: you know what, Like I think that I'm the opposite
Speaker 3: end of the spectrum, Like even if i'm too, well,
Speaker 3: we can probably get through it.
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, there is one recent one though, Like the
Speaker 1: guy left me in the restaurant and I would never
Speaker 1: speak to him again, Like that is a total disrespect
Speaker 1: And that is exactly And I just think you have
Speaker 1: not done the work. You would never do that to
Speaker 1: your mum or someone else that you respect, so you
Speaker 1: clearly do not respect me. So like yeah, so that's
Speaker 1: where I draw a line. And it's a hard, hard,
Speaker 1: known hard out for me.
Speaker 2: Authenticity is key, right, like you showing up authentically and
Speaker 2: then being able to go, okay, well, this is who
Speaker 2: I am. I like, and I think the more authentic
Speaker 2: we can be in the dating process, the more likely
Speaker 2: we are to meet someone.
Speaker 4: To meet someone on the same and came.
Speaker 2: Like when you when inclusivity is like a core thing
Speaker 2: for you, like it is for me, Like inclusivity is
Speaker 2: very important to me. If you know, I were to
Speaker 2: be in an experience where I were with someone that
Speaker 2: wasn't inclusive, that wasn't aware, that would be a value misalignment.
Speaker 2: And so it's understanding ourselves better and understand how we
Speaker 2: can show up in an authentic way, because the more
Speaker 2: authentic we can be, the more likely we are to
Speaker 2: meet someone that's a good match.
Speaker 4: Right exactly.
Speaker 2: So it's really it's about knowing yourself. And I think
Speaker 2: it's also.
Speaker 1: About just beside the day I reckon too. You have
Speaker 1: to go out and you have.
Speaker 2: To meet people.
Speaker 3: You have that you do you know, I haven't. I
Speaker 3: just don't have that experience. I've actually never been on
Speaker 3: one date in my life, my whole years old. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's like I just don't have that, and.
Speaker 4: I think it's sweet and I love it.
Speaker 1: I mean I've been on three dating shows and I've
Speaker 1: been on a numerous hundreds of dates.
Speaker 3: Maybe I should No, this is just going down the
Speaker 3: wrong date. But not for like, because I'm not in
Speaker 3: an open relationship. But dating could be fun if you
Speaker 3: just wanted to like experience people.
Speaker 4: Can we have you back on again? Because I would.
Speaker 4: I feel like I want to.
Speaker 1: This is like just a part one, I feel like
Speaker 1: because I would love that. I feel like there's so
Speaker 1: much more because I want to talk about like things
Speaker 1: like nose.
Speaker 3: And dots yeah.
Speaker 2: And like no that is yah, and domes green and
Speaker 2: red flags all that.
Speaker 4: Quick fire.
Speaker 1: I feel like our listeners, if you are listening, I
Speaker 1: feel like you guys would love it, like I feel
Speaker 1: like they would. I think this is like such a
Speaker 1: common thing with my girl group at the moment as well,
Speaker 1: Like well, girl group, but half of them it goes
Speaker 1: like but we all are feeling like the same vibes.
Speaker 2: And I think, look, it is changing across the board,
Speaker 2: whether you're dating men, whether you're dating women who regardless
Speaker 2: of who you're dating, you know, I think being a
Speaker 2: queer woman, I've had various experiences in dating. Plus I
Speaker 2: work in this space, and I think when it comes
Speaker 2: to relationships and when it comes to sex, there are
Speaker 2: certain things that transcend gender. There are certain things that
Speaker 2: transcend sexuality, and these are the things that we really
Speaker 2: kind of need to talk about, Like how do you
Speaker 2: build and sus stay in healthy connections, healthy sexual relationships.
Speaker 2: If you're someone that is interested in sex, you know,
Speaker 2: how can we do that in a way that is
Speaker 2: really like inclusive and authentic. I wrote a book which
Speaker 2: is coming out early next.
Speaker 5: Year, Well let's be in alignment with Yeah, that'd be great,
Speaker 5: But like, I did it for this reason because I
Speaker 5: think one of the biggest challenges I face is that
Speaker 5: most of and I guess this comes back to social media,
Speaker 5: most of the information on dating I see in social
Speaker 5: media is very heteronormative.
Speaker 2: Most of the books on relationships and sex are heteronormative,
Speaker 2: and so it can feel very non inclusive for people
Speaker 2: within the queer community.
Speaker 4: That's not my experience.
Speaker 2: For me, I was like reading all these books and
Speaker 2: like doing my education, I'm like, I'm not here, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm not actually in this. I'm not represented in this
Speaker 2: when I was studying, when I was doing a lot
Speaker 2: of this stuff. So that was kind of why I
Speaker 2: decided to write a book that could be inclusive and
Speaker 2: just focused on skills, stools, and strategies for anyone. So yeah,
Speaker 2: I definitely think maybe having that same conversation about dos and.
Speaker 4: Don't or green.
Speaker 2: I would love that any anything, like, I mean, look,
Speaker 2: I'm always up for talking about dating, relationships and sex.
Speaker 2: I do it all day long. It's my favorite thing
Speaker 2: to do.
Speaker 3: So if they wanted to connect with you, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: how do they do that?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Instagram? Okay great, Yeah, so it's just my name Lucille
Speaker 2: dot Shackleton and I post a lot of just like
Speaker 2: like an education on there about dating relationships stuff like that.
Speaker 4: Amazing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I could talk to you all day.
Speaker 3: Ready when the book January January? Great?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, okay, and what can we know the book name?
Speaker 4: Well, it's called all in All in love that yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you so much for your time today. Look,
Speaker 3: we are getting the wrap up from our teams all right,
Speaker 3: but that's all we have time for. Thank you so
Speaker 3: much for listening to First things first, if you love
Speaker 3: what you're here, leave us a little rating, rror review,
Speaker 3: And if.
Speaker 1: You want us to cover anything on the podcast, actually,
Speaker 1: if you want to write in your questions you see you,
Speaker 1: we'll have them ready to go in January. I know
Speaker 1: that seems like a bit of a while where but
Speaker 1: it will go so far or we could even like
Speaker 1: I don't know, cover it sooner.
Speaker 4: Who knows my handle is at brook dot Bluton.
Speaker 1: Lucille is at Lucille dot Shackleton, and Maddie's at It's
Speaker 1: Maddie Mills and we'll see on the next episode, right,