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Speaker 1: So if you had to think about it, when was

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Speaker 1: the last time you got a raise? What about the

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Speaker 1: last time that you advocated that you yourself got a raise.

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Speaker 1: In my own career, it took me years until I

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Speaker 1: had the confidence to even begin to ask for what

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Speaker 1: I believed thought I was worth. Even then, I didn't ask.

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Speaker 2: The big figures.

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Speaker 1: And I'm a straight white man. It's a very very

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Speaker 1: different story for women in the workforce, and the gap

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Speaker 1: between what men and women get paid for the same

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Speaker 1: job in our country of Australia in twenty twenty four

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Speaker 1: is twelve percent. That is not insignificant. Thankfully, Meggie Palmer's

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Speaker 1: here to help. She's a former foreign correspondent and now

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Speaker 1: heads the tech startup pep talkhurd dot com, which is

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Speaker 1: a platform designed to help women in the workforce advocate

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Speaker 1: for themselves around better conditions, a better career, part and

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Speaker 1: ultimately better pay. Maggie is a powerhouse. I love talking

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Speaker 1: us her. We caught up from a long way away

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Speaker 1: across the Pacific from where she lives in Brooklyn. This

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Speaker 1: conversation just absolutely had me raring to go when it

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Speaker 1: comes to my next negotiation, and I hope it'll do

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Speaker 1: the same for you. Before we get there, I've got

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Speaker 1: to play some ads to pay the piper. Be back

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Speaker 1: after the break today, Welcome to the show. This is

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Speaker 1: better than yesterday, helping you make today better than yesterday.

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Speaker 1: Since twenty thirteen, my name is Osha Ginsburg. I'm a podcaster.

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Speaker 1: I'm a best selling author. I'm an award winning documentary maker.

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Speaker 1: I'm a husband, a dad, a stepdad, a dance party attendee,

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Speaker 1: a bed sock wearer, an e bike recharger, and I'm

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Speaker 1: very glad that you are here with me today. If

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Speaker 1: you do want to get in touch, just pop a

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Speaker 1: comment on the latest newsletter. There's a little thing at

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Speaker 1: the bottom of every article that say's dropped a message.

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Speaker 1: You can reach out, you can tell me something, you

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Speaker 1: can ask a question, whatever you want to put the

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Speaker 1: link in the show notes. Meggie Palmers here PEP talk

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Speaker 1: her p E P t A l k hgr dot com.

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Speaker 1: I had to think about that as written down in

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Speaker 1: front of me. PEP Talker dot Com is the focal

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Speaker 1: point of Meggie's work, and she's she's a beacon of

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Speaker 1: self worth and self advocacy. I've got so much out

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Speaker 1: of this conversation. I don't know you all too enjoy it.

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Speaker 1: I'm sitting in Sydney. I'm not in my house. I'm

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Speaker 1: not only in my house, but there's an eight ton

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Speaker 1: rock breaker about seven meters from my microphone going through.

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Speaker 1: I think it's the hardest substance on earth next to

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Speaker 1: Wolverine's bones. Is sad. And so I'm sitting in the

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Speaker 1: a car studios in the middle of Sydney. Where are you?

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Speaker 2: So? I it's funny. I live around the corner and

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Speaker 2: I have an office at home. But I've got a

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Speaker 2: two year old and he has now just's going through

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Speaker 2: that phase which perhaps he's already been through of like

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Speaker 2: I won't go to bed on time anymore unless screen

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Speaker 2: for two hours because that's a fun activity. And so

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Speaker 2: I had a corporate club last night. So I was

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Speaker 2: like in the kitchen because normally it's fine because he

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Speaker 2: just goes down in his calm and his chill. But like, no,

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Speaker 2: So I'm at my coworking space around the corner in Brooklyn,

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Speaker 2: New York.

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Speaker 1: And I love that. At your coworking space in Brooklyn,

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Speaker 1: there's a podcast space.

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Speaker 2: No no, no, I've just sat dressed it because you know,

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Speaker 2: we don't like an ugly situation. I mean it's not

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Speaker 2: as good as able to black. But no, this is

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Speaker 2: just a meeting room.

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Speaker 1: Well that's the thing you did portray. You did portray

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Speaker 1: your former career there when you use the word set dress,

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Speaker 1: so pep talker. You know, obviously I'll do a big intro,

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Speaker 1: but you've had a lot of success with, you know,

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Speaker 1: bringing this issue to light. However, finance, particularly equity in pay,

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Speaker 1: particularly you know, having a long hard look at the

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Speaker 1: Jed pig Yu. Wasn't really where you started, was it, No,

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Speaker 1: not at all.

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Speaker 2: I started in the media similar to you. I was

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Speaker 2: a journal which was kind of a bit of an

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Speaker 2: accident that I became a journal, but I kind of

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Speaker 2: loved it. And then long story short, I had an

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Speaker 2: experience sual when I was a journal and I found

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Speaker 2: out that the dudes in the newsroom who I sat

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Speaker 2: next to, who my friends, turned out they were getting

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Speaker 2: paid more than me. And it was actually a male

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Speaker 2: ally who fed that up the food chain to let

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Speaker 2: me know. And when I found out, I was obviously

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Speaker 2: pissed off. And so I was kind of raised that

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Speaker 2: if you see something, say something, And so I had

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Speaker 2: a chat because I thought it was a mistake and

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Speaker 2: then didn't go down so well, So shall we say.

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Speaker 1: Hey, hang on, so what kind of journal are you talking?

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Speaker 3: Like?

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Speaker 1: Like, so you went to university and everything?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I did. Actually, so I studied. So I'm a Queenslander,

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Speaker 2: proud Queenslander from ff Farm on the Goldie and then

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Speaker 2: went to the big smoke up to Breezy to QT.

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Speaker 2: Where I studied was good times. Like the university was

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Speaker 2: kind of like my side hustle. My main hustle was

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Speaker 2: like the college vibe, you know. And then I would

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Speaker 2: go in and study business and journalism and it was awesome.

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Speaker 2: I loved it.

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Speaker 1: As you're coming to the end of that, you start

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Speaker 1: to look for where you might go, what you might do.

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Speaker 2: You know. It's so funny. I actually dated this guy randomly,

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Speaker 2: lovely fellow whatever. Anyway, he was doing an internship at

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Speaker 2: Channel nine actually in Brisbane, and he told me about it.

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Speaker 2: What I was just like coasting to. I was like

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Speaker 2: blah lah la, like, let's throw all these parties at college,

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Speaker 2: like I suppose I'll go to lectures occasionally. Whatever. I

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Speaker 2: loved it. I didn't love it, but I was just

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Speaker 2: more interested in partying and then I was like, he's

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Speaker 2: doing an internship. Maybe I should really pull myselfs up

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Speaker 2: and get my shit together and so so that was

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Speaker 2: what made me realize I need to like, I need

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Speaker 2: to think about this, I need to have a plan.

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Speaker 2: And so I spoke to all of my lecturers who

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Speaker 2: was super kind and helped me get an internship at

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Speaker 2: Channel seven, went up to cans blah blah blah, did

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Speaker 2: work experience and then it kind of went from there.

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Speaker 2: But it's funny, I never I never wanted to be

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Speaker 2: a TV journal but the only reason I liked it

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Speaker 2: was because you got to get out of the office

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Speaker 2: because there's a print journal. And even when I did

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Speaker 2: radio prack it was cool, but I could do it

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Speaker 2: from the office. And I love TV because you had

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Speaker 2: to go and meet people and you got to work

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Speaker 2: with the full crew, and like, I sort of love

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Speaker 2: I love people. So I love that I worked with

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Speaker 2: the crew and then I got to meet people, and like,

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Speaker 2: I love I still love that part of.

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Speaker 1: You know, So what prime Prime Channel Prime up in

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Speaker 1: it was?

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Speaker 2: It was Channel seven Local back in the day. I

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Speaker 2: worked there with the fabulous Talitha Cummons, Andrew Lunz, Kap Turner,

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Speaker 2: who've all gone to be really incredible journalist in their

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Speaker 2: own right. And they were so kind they like took

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Speaker 2: me and Michael Best. They sort of took me under

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Speaker 2: their wing and sort of helped me, and and then

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Speaker 2: ended up at Channel ten in Brisbane and then went

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Speaker 2: from there.

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Speaker 1: Give us your sign off, because there's always a tabline

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Speaker 1: like I do a fake news show here, right, and

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Speaker 1: basically it's the stories of the day, and I throw

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Speaker 1: to a crew of amazing improvisers. They don't know what

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Speaker 1: the story is and so they essentially tell the story

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Speaker 1: using all the news tropes in the world. So let's say,

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Speaker 1: for example, he was waiting the opening of the new

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Speaker 1: water park at the Promenade Waterfront in Cans all right,

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Speaker 1: and you've got some overlay of kids wearing their street

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Speaker 1: clothes which is soaked, right, and that's the overlay you're doing.

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Speaker 1: And the camos say, we're going to start wide and

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Speaker 1: come to you a live cross as.

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Speaker 2: You can see young people frolicking throughout the promenade here today,

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Speaker 2: Cans has never been in better form. Make sure you

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Speaker 2: get down here enjoy the festivities. This is Meggie Palmer

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Speaker 2: for Channel seven cans still got it. You know what's

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Speaker 2: so funny about that is like when I so, my

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Speaker 2: name on my birth stivity is Margaret, and I will

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Speaker 2: always have gone by Meggie since the day I was born,

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Speaker 2: and so obviously I was like, Meggie whatever. I have

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Speaker 2: a news director who said to me, Meggie doesn't sound

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Speaker 2: professional enough. You need to go by Meg. So there

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Speaker 2: was like a brief period of maybe like six or

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Speaker 2: twelve months where I went by Meg Palmer because I

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Speaker 2: was told it was a professional app.

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Speaker 1: But I had a program director who said, not, You're

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Speaker 1: Andrew G.

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Speaker 2: And that was it. He got the nickname really really.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because I said, oh, I was an adelaide, so

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Speaker 1: I'd really love to just use my own name for

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Speaker 1: what's your surname Ginsburg? And he made this noise, Sateelaide,

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Speaker 1: that's pretty Jewish ge Andrew G.

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Speaker 2: That was it.

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Speaker 1: And that was it, inhaled through his teeth, you know.

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Speaker 2: And I mean, we could talk about the racism and

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Speaker 2: the discrimination that I'm sure we observed and clearly you

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Speaker 2: experience as well. Like in the media. I remember I

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Speaker 2: remember a producer at a network he shall remain nameless.

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Speaker 2: I was trying to picture a story. I was picturing

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Speaker 2: a story about an indigenous community and I thought it

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Speaker 2: was an important story and it was about young people anyway,

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Speaker 2: so it was a great young good pictures, et cetera,

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Speaker 2: et cetera, which is all important in TV. And he

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Speaker 2: said to me, and I can't even believe these words

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Speaker 2: are going to come out of my mouth. He said

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Speaker 2: to me, Maggie, no one cares about black people. And

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Speaker 2: I was like, I beg your part, and he said,

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to commission it. No, none of our

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Speaker 2: viewers care. And I've never forgot so mortified. I think

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Speaker 2: I was speechless when he said that. And I don't

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Speaker 2: remember what I said, but I remember the words that

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Speaker 2: came out of his mouth, and like how and by

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Speaker 2: the way, I'm sure that happened in every newsroom around Australia.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it's much to this day. I hope not. But

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Speaker 2: it's terrible, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: Yes it is. And unfortunately some of those views. You

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Speaker 1: can't really legislate some of those views away. You just

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Speaker 1: kind of have to wait for those people in power

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Speaker 1: to get moved on by the overenerational thing pressure of

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Speaker 1: the market. Really, I probably I'm probably about fifteen years

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Speaker 1: older than you are. But my girlfriend at the time

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Speaker 1: when I was in radio, I wasn't ready for five

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Speaker 1: years before I sat it on cable TV and I

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Speaker 1: saw firsthand how this incredibly capable, talented, charming, forward thinking, interesting,

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Speaker 1: very very clever broadcaster was passed over again and again

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Speaker 1: for no other reason that I could discern other than

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Speaker 1: she had a vagina. And I'm wondering, this is radio

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Speaker 1: in the nineties and Brisboe And I'm wondering, did you,

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Speaker 1: before you started thinking about pay gaps and stuff, did

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Speaker 1: you at least see because you know, pay is a

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Speaker 1: very private thing, sure, but positioned inside a company, isn't Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And did you start to see disadvantage in the workplace?

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think still to this day, you know,

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Speaker 2: women in particular, folks, folks, folks of color, folks from

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Speaker 2: underrepresented backgrounds like, experienced degrees of bias and discrimination every day, right,

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Speaker 2: And I think back and I think, Oh, it wasn't

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Speaker 2: that bad. But there was there was inappropriate advances. There

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Speaker 2: was like minor sexual harassment. I guess on the spectrum,

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Speaker 2: I was very fortunate in that nothing extraordinarily awful happened

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Speaker 2: to me. Did to some of my friends, but bits

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Speaker 2: of that. And I will also say I also had

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Speaker 2: amazing allies, men and women who were more seeing here

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Speaker 2: than me, who really supported me and who championed me

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Speaker 2: for whatever reason. And I'm so grateful for them, and

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't be I wouldn't have had the career that

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Speaker 2: I had without them. And you know, it was interesting.

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Speaker 2: I worked in Australia for a long time when overseas

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Speaker 2: and it was with the BBC World for a while,

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Speaker 2: and then eventually came back into commercial TV and then

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Speaker 2: went to SBS and I ended my journalism career when

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Speaker 2: I was working at SBS. And my few years when

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Speaker 2: I worked at SBS were the most impactful, most amazing

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Speaker 2: time with my whole career, because I felt like I

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Speaker 2: felt like I'd been operating like this, like I like

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Speaker 2: straight ahead, like there was a there was a mold,

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Speaker 2: And when I got to SBS, I felt like the

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Speaker 2: blinkers had been taken off in terms of how I

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Speaker 2: should tell stories, how I needed to tell stories. Like

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Speaker 2: at SBS, there was a mandate that we didn't do stories.

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Speaker 2: We didn't put shows to air unless we'd spoken to

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Speaker 2: a variety of different cultural perspectives, and I'd never had

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Speaker 2: someone mandate that to me before. And I realized that,

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Speaker 2: you know, before that my career, I was so black

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Speaker 2: of white about things and it was so boring. And

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Speaker 2: those producers that I worked with, you said, no one

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Speaker 2: cares about indigenous stories. They were so wrong, and they

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Speaker 2: were doing such a disservice to the Australian public who

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Speaker 2: wasn't getting this. You know, Tapestry of story is that

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Speaker 2: at SBS Still to this day, they do amazing work

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Speaker 2: and I just I just am so passionate now about

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Speaker 2: the power of diversity of stories because it changes hearts

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Speaker 2: and minds. And yeah, my experience working there just just

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Speaker 2: changed everything for me. And so yes, of course there

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Speaker 2: was a little bit of gender discrimination that I experienced.

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Speaker 2: There was a lot that I observed, But I reflect

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Speaker 2: back now and think about you know, I worked in

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Speaker 2: newsrooms where there was no people of color. There were

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Speaker 2: there were entirely white newsrooms, and that's unacceptable. It was

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Speaker 2: unacceptable then, it's unacceptable now. And yet that was quote

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Speaker 2: unquote normal. I thought that that was okay and it wasn't.

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Speaker 2: And I sort of, you know, I have a bit

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Speaker 2: of shame and guilt actually around that because I could

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Speaker 2: have done more and I didn't.

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Speaker 1: What's for you to do about who hires who in

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Speaker 1: a newsroom a position people?

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Speaker 2: No, well at that point, no, But I could have

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Speaker 2: said something. I could have noticed it. There was one

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Speaker 2: woman at one point, and on reflection, she was really

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Speaker 2: bullied out. And I don't know why. There's one reason

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Speaker 2: that I can think of. Perhaps there were other things

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Speaker 2: going on that I wasn't aware of, but you know,

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Speaker 2: it's just, yeah, it really frustrates me. And it's not

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Speaker 2: fair because I think about all those kids and all

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Speaker 2: those families who are watching the news and never saw

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Speaker 2: themselves reflected. I don't think that that does good things

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Speaker 2: for the tapestry of a society.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm kind of in this transitional phase with

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Speaker 1: my outlook upon this sort of stuff. It's somewhat seen

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Speaker 1: as inappropriate for me, as a fifty year old white

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Speaker 1: dude to tell the story of I mean, currently in

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Speaker 1: the you know, on the cusp of kind of Redfern

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Speaker 1: and Surrey Hills where I'm sitting right now, to tell

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Speaker 1: the story of someone who's living in a house and

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Speaker 1: Commission flat fifty meters from here. It's always to see

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Speaker 1: as like, well, you're not allowed to tell a person's story.

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Speaker 1: But I have empathy and compassion, and I can understand

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Speaker 1: how shit it would be to have a bus service

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Speaker 1: canceled and not be able to get from here to there.

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Speaker 1: And this is really quite terrible, and she's clearly having

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Speaker 1: a bad time. But in recent times it's been frowned upon.

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Speaker 1: For that story to be told believably won me and

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Speaker 1: I don't think. I I don't know if that's the case.

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Speaker 2: I think what's changed, and I think what's different from

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Speaker 2: when you know, you and I were working in the media,

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Speaker 2: you know, however, ten fifteen years ago. I think what's

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Speaker 2: changed from then to now is that we can have

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Speaker 2: these conversations and whether it's conscious or unconscious in terms

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Speaker 2: of how you're choosing a team, we're seeing and we're hearing,

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Speaker 2: and we're learning from more diverse voices, which I personally

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Speaker 2: think is a really good thing. And I think we

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Speaker 2: have to go through that phase where it has to

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Speaker 2: be very intentional. I personally am in favor of things

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Speaker 2: like quotas because it puts our attention in that direction. Now,

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Speaker 2: it's not to say that someone gets the job because

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Speaker 2: they're a token. It's just that previously because of the

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Speaker 2: Old Boys you know, the Old Boys Club or the

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Speaker 2: Old Boys Network, whatever it is, or the equivalent, that

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Speaker 2: was who we knew, like that's who was in our

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Speaker 2: circle or whatever. And so those are the people that

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Speaker 2: we call that we said, like, let me text someone,

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Speaker 2: let's get someone in here. But when we put our

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Speaker 2: attention and say we need to hear from people from

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Speaker 2: different socio economic backgrounds. We need to hear from folks

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Speaker 2: who are immigrants, we need to hear from women, we

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Speaker 2: need to hear from folks who are living with a disability,

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden, it's like a parifer vision opens

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Speaker 2: up and we're like, oh my gosh, they're amazing. Oh

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Speaker 2: my gosh, he's got an amazing perspective. Yeah, and you

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Speaker 2: just didn't even know to look for them previously because

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Speaker 2: of our own unconscious bias. But by the way, we

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Speaker 2: all have I bring that, you bring that. You know,

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Speaker 2: the most woke person in the world brings an unconscious

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Speaker 2: bias to the world. Right, But as we're aware of that,

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Speaker 2: and as we start to have conversations like this, hopefully

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Speaker 2: folks listening as well. Out all of our awareness can

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Speaker 2: start to improve so that we just start to maybe

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Speaker 2: ask more provocative questions in a workplace, which is something

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Speaker 2: that I regret not doing when I was younger, or

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Speaker 2: suggesting people, putting people forward, sending specific show reals in,

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Speaker 2: or you know, being those allies and mentors to folks

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Speaker 2: who are trying to break in, saying, let me be

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Speaker 2: that leg up for you because someone did that for me,

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Speaker 2: and now how can I actually pay that privilege that

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Speaker 2: I now have forward to other people as well?

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Speaker 1: When it came to getting paid, though, I've actually been

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Speaker 1: at a situation where I did not realize that I

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Speaker 1: was getting paid more than another person that was doing

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Speaker 1: similar job. Yep, your story of what happened, Like, what

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Speaker 1: did it feel like when you discovered that you were

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Speaker 1: getting paid a lot less than someone doing exactly the

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Speaker 1: same job.

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Speaker 2: Well, I just thought it was a mistake, Like this

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Speaker 2: is why five was. I was like, let's just it's

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Speaker 2: just a paperworker. Let's just get that sorted out. Like

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Speaker 2: I was like in my I don't know, I was

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Speaker 2: like my mid twenties or whatever. I just was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: la la la, let's just get it fixed. That's like,

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Speaker 2: that's just sort of like the bubble of a world

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Speaker 2: that I've been living in. And when I was like, oh, hey,

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Speaker 2: here's the situation, and they were like listen, Meggie, if

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Speaker 2: you don't like it, you've got two options. You can

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Speaker 2: quit or you can take this to court. And I

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Speaker 2: was like excuse me, and they're like yeah, basically, suck

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Speaker 2: it up or we'll see you. We'll see you with

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Speaker 2: the lawyers.

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Speaker 1: I'm getting this was an SBS.

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Speaker 2: It was not SPS. It was not SPS. I loved

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Speaker 2: my time at SPS. I have such admiration for everyone working.

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Speaker 2: It was not SBS. And I was just like, are

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Speaker 2: you cheating me? Like, oh, no, you don't, because the

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Speaker 2: thing was I was like, I just honestly like flabbergasta.

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Speaker 2: It takes a lot to render me speechures, but in

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Speaker 2: that moment, I was speeches. And then I got really

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Speaker 2: really pissed off and I had a bit of a

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Speaker 2: spiral of like woe is me or whatever. But then

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Speaker 2: I was like, you know what, I didn't have children,

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Speaker 2: I didn't have a mortgage, I had savings. I backed myself.

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Speaker 2: I was like, I will be fine. But if they

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Speaker 2: said this to someone who was pregnant, if they said

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Speaker 2: this to someone who was the breadwinner, they'd be candidly

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Speaker 2: fucked because they'd have to stay there and put up

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Speaker 2: that behavior. And so I felt very compelled. I did

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Speaker 2: get a lawyer, and I felt very compelled to go

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Speaker 2: down that route, not because I wanted to. I tried

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Speaker 2: to be happy families and we tried to mediate and

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Speaker 2: they just didn't engage. But I kind of was like,

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Speaker 2: I have to because I need to kind of draw

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Speaker 2: a line in the sand and be like, do not

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Speaker 2: do this to other people. Now I'm sure they did,

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Speaker 2: but in my head, I was like, you know, if

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Speaker 2: I stand up to them, maybe they won't and who

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Speaker 2: knows it to change anything. But that was just kind

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Speaker 2: of like my thought process of like I needed to

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Speaker 2: know it's not okay.

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Speaker 1: You now, through your website, three your work, through your book,

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Speaker 1: you put forth a framework as to how to advocate

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Speaker 1: for yourself. Do you think your framework would have.

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Speaker 2: Worked in that instance? What I could have done better?

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Speaker 2: So basically I was just very overt that I knew

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Speaker 2: that this was happening to me, and I was like,

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Speaker 2: fix it. What I could have done better and what

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Speaker 2: I would encourage folks who may or may not know

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Speaker 2: that they're getting underpaid at this point in time. Is

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Speaker 2: that especially for women. We know that when women try

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Speaker 2: to create change from a collective approach, they're more successful.

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Speaker 2: So when it's about me, me, me, you're paying me less,

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Speaker 2: fix it, that is not always as successful statistically that

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Speaker 2: if I'm like, hey, do we have a collective challenge here?

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Speaker 2: Should HR look at the equity of everyone's pay? So

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Speaker 2: perhaps what I could have done or show as I

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Speaker 2: could have said, Hey, there's some chatter in the newsroom,

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Speaker 2: I would love to know if HR has ever done,

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Speaker 2: you know, a balancing of the compensation across all of

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Speaker 2: the roles in our team. That's perhaps what I could

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Speaker 2: have done. Differently, they might have told me to piss off,

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Speaker 2: who knows, but I could have done that, and maybe

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Speaker 2: then it wouldn't have been oh my gosh, she's so greedy,

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Speaker 2: she wants paid more, And maybe that would have been

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Speaker 2: more of a collective approach to go about it.

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Speaker 1: What like to unionize.

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Speaker 2: It's funny, well, yes, and we were at the time

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Speaker 2: on individual contracts, but yeah, I mean exactly, there's power

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Speaker 2: in the collective bargaining and big fan of the unions

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Speaker 2: for those reasons. As well.

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Speaker 1: But where I'm recording is around the corner from the

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Speaker 1: CMFAU headquarters. And I don't know if you've been following

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Speaker 1: the news in Australia.

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Speaker 2: But there's a lot going on there right now that

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Speaker 2: we can unpack it.

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Speaker 1: A lot going on. And look, I hope they can't

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Speaker 1: hear me from here, but I've seen how great unions

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Speaker 1: can be when I worked in America. Unions are amazingly

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Speaker 1: good healthcare, actual fair working conditions. Crews that literally walk

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Speaker 1: off the set ten hours to the second after they

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Speaker 1: walk on, so no one's tired. Everyone can get it

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Speaker 1: done right. But now, unfortunately, when people think unions, they're

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Speaker 1: thinking this shit, Yeah they can get it. It's a

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Speaker 1: real bubber and it's and.

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Speaker 2: There would be people listening as well who don't have

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Speaker 2: the capacity to join a union right or who don't

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Speaker 2: have that collective bargaining power necessarily. And again sometimes I've

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Speaker 2: seen this happen as well. Perhaps you have too. Sometimes

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Speaker 2: when people invoke the union in those situations, that can

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Speaker 2: also become a combative, like an escalated thing for better

432
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,159
Speaker 2: or worse. But again there's this there is a consequence

433
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,280
Speaker 2: sometimes which is not always positive for the individual who

434
00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:18,520
Speaker 2: dares to raise it. So it's a challenging issue and

435
00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,239
Speaker 2: there's no easy answer about it. But I think if

436
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,440
Speaker 2: we don't, like, some of us have to take courageous steps,

437
00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:26,399
Speaker 2: especially when we have the capacity and the privilege to

438
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,919
Speaker 2: do so, so that eventually that ripple effect, ripple effect,

439
00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:32,040
Speaker 2: maybe hopefully fingers cross, we'll get to the point where

440
00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:34,280
Speaker 2: we do get that title wave of change, which is

441
00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:36,000
Speaker 2: what I think needs to happen, because the current rate

442
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:37,560
Speaker 2: of change oosha, they reckon, it's going to take the

443
00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,359
Speaker 2: un say's two hundred years, two hundred years before we get.

444
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:43,920
Speaker 1: To a quality each between men and women.

445
00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's, by the way, it's twenty twenty four now,

446
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:46,679
Speaker 2: so it's.

447
00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:49,280
Speaker 1: Like, what two years is a long time?

448
00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:51,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. You know, we could have lived a whole

449
00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:53,440
Speaker 2: another two lifetimes since and so that's like my whole

450
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:54,680
Speaker 2: thing is like I don't want to just like sit

451
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,560
Speaker 2: around and be like, let's wait another two hundred years

452
00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,320
Speaker 2: and see what happens. Fingers cross should be good. That's

453
00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:02,960
Speaker 2: why I reckon. Actually, all of us have the capacity

454
00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:07,240
Speaker 2: to in some way like instigate a shift in mindset

455
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,240
Speaker 2: in individuals or in organizations. I really believe that.

456
00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:12,200
Speaker 1: What was that you said, you've got to take some

457
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:14,399
Speaker 1: courageous steps. What was the first courageous step that you

458
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:16,520
Speaker 1: took when it came to getting equal pay.

459
00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,400
Speaker 2: The first courageous step was probably when I had that conversation.

460
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,240
Speaker 2: I would say that was an example of a courageous

461
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:25,280
Speaker 2: conversation where I didn't just roll over and accept what

462
00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:27,959
Speaker 2: was given, which was the intention, and which was at

463
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,680
Speaker 2: the time, what was certainly expected of me. I think

464
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:32,240
Speaker 2: it was expected of everyone, and I think there was

465
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,119
Speaker 2: a hyper expectation on the women's staff that you accept

466
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:36,520
Speaker 2: what you get, you get what you get, and you

467
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:37,200
Speaker 2: don't get upset.

468
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:37,399
Speaker 1: You know.

469
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 2: That was kind of like you should be, like you

470
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:40,280
Speaker 2: to have a job. If you don't take this role,

471
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:42,240
Speaker 2: We've got thirty other people who'll line up behind you

472
00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,399
Speaker 2: and kind of happily take on the role. And so

473
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,400
Speaker 2: I think going against the grain. But to be honest,

474
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:49,760
Speaker 2: I had a lot of practice at that. Like I've

475
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,200
Speaker 2: always been that kid who debated. I've always been pissed

476
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,359
Speaker 2: off when things were unfair. So that was kind of

477
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,040
Speaker 2: like built into my DNA, I guess from a young age,

478
00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 2: and so I didn't really feel courageous at the time.

479
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:01,800
Speaker 2: Think there's a lot of people obviously doing much more

480
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,040
Speaker 2: courageous things. But to some extent, you know, people that

481
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 2: men and women who have to have these hard conversations

482
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,560
Speaker 2: and point out these inequalities. It's not easy, and there's

483
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:11,440
Speaker 2: often a consequence.

484
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:17,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, when it comes to the gender pay gap, which

485
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,880
Speaker 1: is it's clearly not not there. Yeah, it's clearly, it's

486
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,600
Speaker 1: clearly there. There's the kind of arguments that it doesn't

487
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:33,119
Speaker 1: exist from a part of the on LINU sphere that

488
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,840
Speaker 1: I don't know if I take seriously about anything, but

489
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,120
Speaker 1: they say it really convincingly, so it sounds like it's real,

490
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,440
Speaker 1: but I know it's kind of not. And there's some

491
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,719
Speaker 1: critique of it from people who I truly really respect

492
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:51,399
Speaker 1: and really trust that I go, oh, what's happening?

493
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 2: Could you give me an exam Like is that people

494
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 2: who are kind of pushing back against the idea of

495
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 2: why it exists?

496
00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:01,960
Speaker 1: YEA, like factoring particularly things like you know, childcare and

497
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:06,119
Speaker 1: time away and things like this, that there is a

498
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 1: bit of a leveling out of some things. Now I'm

499
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 1: not saying in any way, shape or form that child

500
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,080
Speaker 1: care is not an actual proper in a job. It

501
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,359
Speaker 1: is a hard freaking job. And you only have to

502
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:19,920
Speaker 1: look at how much money you need to pay someone

503
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 1: to do it for you for a day, someone that

504
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,399
Speaker 1: you could expect your child back alive at the end

505
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 1: of the day. Yeah, you know, to understand how fucking

506
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 1: valuable that is. Right, So, how does one address the

507
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,760
Speaker 1: arguments the kind of the kind of more rational arguments

508
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 1: against the pay gap.

509
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,399
Speaker 2: So totally gonna be saying so basically, there's a lot

510
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:43,639
Speaker 2: of and I deal with this all the time, and

511
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:44,800
Speaker 2: a's a lot of people who are like, the gender

512
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 2: pay gap is fake news, it's totally bullshit, it's you know,

513
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,119
Speaker 2: it's conflated whatever. So there's a couple of there's a

514
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:51,440
Speaker 2: bunch of factors that contribute to the gender pay gaps.

515
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 2: So let's break it down and just like kind of

516
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 2: strip some of those things out. So it is true

517
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 2: that women, throughout the course of our career, we're more

518
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 2: likely to take time off, right because of children, because

519
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 2: of eldercare, whatever, So we do take more time on

520
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 2: average out of the workforce. That is one hundred percent

521
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 2: actually true from the statistics, and we can strip that

522
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,399
Speaker 2: out of the data, right, so depending on what country

523
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:14,679
Speaker 2: you live in, the gender pay gap sits somewhere between

524
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,680
Speaker 2: sort of like ten to eleven up to twenty percent.

525
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 2: In Australia it's about thirteen fourteen percent, right of the

526
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 2: difference between the average arning of men and women in

527
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,880
Speaker 2: that particularly industry. Right, So that's approximately where we're sitting.

528
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 2: And so you can strip out the fact that you know, yes,

529
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,440
Speaker 2: Megie's a journalist. However she has a two year old,

530
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 2: so she took twelve weeks out of the workforce, so

531
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 2: you know she's therefore less experience. Blah blah blah. You

532
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 2: can strip that out. So let's take that out. There's

533
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 2: still a gap, right. And then the other thing is

534
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 2: that women are socialized. Girls are socialized from a really

535
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 2: young age, and women to be more predisposed to certain roles.

536
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 2: So we're more likely to want to become teachers or

537
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 2: nurses or whatever, or society pushes us in that direction.

538
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 2: And we know that those roles historically have been paid

539
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:02,440
Speaker 2: less than say, engineers, bankers, doctors and lawyers, right, which

540
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 2: traditionally have had less women in the industries. Right, So

541
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,719
Speaker 2: that's also true that as women go into an industry,

542
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 2: in fact, the average wage goes down. You can also

543
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 2: statistically account for those choices or you know, as I said,

544
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,159
Speaker 2: social conditioning for those particular job choices. So we can

545
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,199
Speaker 2: strip that out of the data too, So we can

546
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 2: remove the fact that we take time out, and we

547
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 2: can remove the fact that we are more likely to

548
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,439
Speaker 2: go into feminized jobs which pay less. So you can

549
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,119
Speaker 2: do both of those things, and there's still a gap, right,

550
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 2: There's still a gap. I was at a summat recently

551
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 2: with a bunch of Harvard professors who were talking about

552
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 2: this exact thing that you're mentioning. So it's that gap

553
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 2: that I find most interesting. It's not as big, So

554
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 2: your contacts and your friends are crap. It's not as

555
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,159
Speaker 2: big when you account for both of those things. That

556
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 2: is true. But that remaining gap that hypothesize that that's

557
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,360
Speaker 2: unconscious bias and or discrimination. That's all we can put

558
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 2: that final gap down to.

559
00:25:57,760 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 1: Well, both of those things we could definitely do something about,

560
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 1: which is good.

561
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:04,680
Speaker 2: We would hope. But to your point earlier, you know,

562
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,360
Speaker 2: it's also it's a generational thing. And here's a fun

563
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 2: slash unfun fact. Right, So there's been three different studies

564
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 2: in three countries that's shown that little kids, it's pretty rank,

565
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:25,400
Speaker 2: it's pretty ranky. So little girls get less pocket money

566
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,879
Speaker 2: than little boys. So like the gender pay gap starts

567
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 2: at eight eight years old. Now, parents are not arsholes obviously,

568
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,400
Speaker 2: you know, like they're not intentionally doing it. But again

569
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 2: it comes back to what have we been conditioned to think.

570
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 2: So from a young age, we've been taught that if

571
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 2: you chop wood or you mow the lawn, that is

572
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,879
Speaker 2: quote unquote hard work. Right, if you set the table,

573
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 2: if you support with laundry duties. I'm generalizing here, of course,

574
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,199
Speaker 2: but if you do that, that's kind of like, that's

575
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 2: cute and that's nice, but it's not as tough, right,

576
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,680
Speaker 2: And so so we actually see that this gap sneaks

577
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 2: in then, and so of course it's perpetuating and it

578
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 2: continues to get worse as we become adults as well.

579
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 1: I'm fascinated to know, like there's a few men in

580
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,120
Speaker 1: my life that have husbands, there's most definitely an unconscious

581
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,399
Speaker 1: bias in all of the three men I'm thinking of,

582
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 1: and there's most definitely discrimination against them.

583
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 2: According to the Human Rights Campaign, gay men do earn

584
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 2: less than hetero sexual men, right, so there is a

585
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,920
Speaker 2: pay gap that is disadvantaged gaymen as well, which makes

586
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 2: sense when we think about the fact that, yes, the

587
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 2: gender pay gap is bad for women, but it is

588
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 2: much worse for Black women, it is much worse for

589
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 2: Indigenous women, it's much worse for Hispanic and Asian women, right,

590
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 2: And so it tracks that on the male side as well,

591
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 2: that folks from underrepresented groups are also experiencing that same

592
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 2: unconscious or conscious bias, some discrimination. There is gender pay

593
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 2: gap data specifically looking at women who identifies lesbians for example,

594
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 2: and as I understand that the gap is slightly less,

595
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 2: but it exists still, but it's not as bad as

596
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 2: I understand it, certainly from from I have seen a

597
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 2: piece of data on this that specifically looked at at lesbians,

598
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 2: but I'm not sure more broadly than that, but it'd

599
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 2: be interesting.

600
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 1: Let's start with employees. How do people sit in this office,

601
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 1: for example, the female employees here, who are all ask

602
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 1: kick and salespeople, and they do the job, trust me,

603
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 1: how do they address this?

604
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think everyone men and women, however you

605
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 2: identify in a workplace. The first thing is to your

606
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 2: earlier point. We were talking about very earlier in the

607
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 2: interview about how you're a curious person. So I think

608
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 2: everyone can be curious at work and ask questions. So

609
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,120
Speaker 2: if you're interviewing for a new sales representative, if you're

610
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 2: interviewing for an intern, whatever it is, you can ask

611
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 2: the question, say hey, what does the diversity look like

612
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 2: of the candidates on the short list. It's not aggressive.

613
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 2: Whatever is just a question. If you're if there's a

614
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 2: panel of folks who are interviewing prospective candidates, again, you

615
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 2: can say, hey, just wanting to check if we got

616
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,959
Speaker 2: some diversity on the panel who are doing the interviews themselves, right,

617
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 2: because if you have an all male panel and equally

618
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 2: in all female panel, perhaps that's not going to be

619
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 2: fair for all candidates, right. So that's one thing that

620
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 2: we can do. The other thing is that you can

621
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 2: advocate and ask questions to say, hey, what is the

622
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 2: what is what are the pay bands? Do we have

623
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 2: transparent pay bans? What is HR's practice around doing a

624
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 2: compensation benchmark in the organization? So asking those questions is

625
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 2: really powerful and also being an ally and advocating for

626
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 2: people in your team. You know, I think one of

627
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 2: the most radical things that we can all do is

628
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 2: start to talk about cash and money because, like, you know,

629
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 2: I was raised in like fairly traditional you know, queens

630
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 2: and family, and you didn't really talk about cash. That

631
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 2: was kind of a bit rude and a bit on

632
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 2: the nose, you know, you didn't really talk about what

633
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 2: your paycheck set. Now, I'm not saying we all put

634
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,239
Speaker 2: it on our Instagram, you know, profile, equally, I think

635
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 2: it is kind of radical but exciting to have a

636
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 2: conversation this weekend with your mates about, hey, here's my

637
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 2: salary expectations, Like, here's the range of money that I'm earning,

638
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 2: and here's what I'd love to be earning. Like, let's

639
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 2: start to have that conversation because actually, in sharing that openly,

640
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 2: you may give someone else permission to start to dream

641
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 2: that that could be possible for them, Right because if

642
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 2: you've never and that's someone who owns six figures, you

643
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 2: don't have any role models to even know that that's

644
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 2: an option. And all of a sudden, if people start

645
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 2: to share that and say, did you know that Joanne's

646
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 2: earning this or Dunk can do this whatever, it allows

647
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 2: people again to kind of take the blinkers off about

648
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 2: what could be possible for them and what they could

649
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 2: maybe dream to start to ask for one day.

650
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 1: So you're saying, like, when you're sitting there in an interview,

651
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 1: if you say, what's the way that I could ask that?

652
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: Because if I start asking, oh, what are the pay bands?

653
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: Or if I start have you have you done a

654
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 1: what did you say? A recalibration or rebalancing of the

655
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 1: if I said to them, look, I've had a situation

656
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: in my employment before where I realized I found out

657
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 1: that I was getting paid more for the same job

658
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: than a female colleague, and it was a lot of

659
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: big problem. Can you help me make sure that doesn't

660
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 1: happen here? I mean, tell is that not a question

661
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 1: I could ask? Okay?

662
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 2: And that takes a lot of courage, right for you,

663
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 2: because that's not an easy thing to say necessarily, like Okay,

664
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 2: maybe it's but there's a potentially it could rub some

665
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 2: people the wrong way. It's not always an easy conversation.

666
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 2: And so that's why I say, like, it is important

667
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 2: that we kind of step into a place that makes

668
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 2: us awkward and uncomfortable. I mean, we've heard the stories,

669
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 2: you know, in Hollywood of stars who've started to openly

670
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 2: say that they won't work unless they know the co

671
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 2: stars are getting paid equally or making sure they can

672
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 2: split the salaries. That it's fair and reasonable, But the

673
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 2: reality is it is a pr risk for the person

674
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 2: who does get paid disproportionately more right, and sometimes there's

675
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 2: reasons for that. I'm not saying that people can't be

676
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 2: get paid different rates. They can. Sometimes there's reasons for it.

677
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 2: But actually by being an ally like that example you

678
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 2: just gave, that's pretty game changing because it also sets

679
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 2: an expectation for the management team that, oh, my gosh,

680
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 2: we gotta take this seriously because he's he's put it

681
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 2: on the table, so we can't say that we didn't know.

682
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 2: You know, it goes to values and character, And I

683
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 2: understand that there's people listening who maybe don't feel that

684
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 2: they have that political capital within their organization to have

685
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 2: these conversations because you know, if you lose your job,

686
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 2: it could be very disastrous. So I understand that there's

687
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 2: different levels that we're all out in terms of how

688
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 2: comfortable are we having these conversations. But I think it's

689
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 2: important to put it out there and kind of raise

690
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 2: it as you get to that point, like I would

691
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 2: encourage you to get a bit uncomfortable and maybe you

692
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 2: know obviously sense check it with some mates if that's helpful,

693
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 2: practice having the conversation beforehand so you can sort of

694
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 2: crowdsource how it's going to have the most impact and

695
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 2: also hopefully the lowest consequence for you. Right, But I

696
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 2: do think we have to be brave and step out

697
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 2: on the ledge a little bit for the sake of

698
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 2: what I believe is the great good.

699
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: Just a moment away from Meggie to say that if

700
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 1: this show is working for you, if you go, can

701
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 1: you reckon? My mate could do with hearing this. Please

702
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: tell a friend just for the email a lot I

703
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: sent about the episode. You can get on the newsletter

704
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 1: through the link in the show notes, or just share

705
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: the episode from the podcast out. That be really helpful.

706
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 1: Back in a tick, I don't make this podcast by myself.

707
00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 1: There's about four or five people that I I had

708
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 1: to do the help me write everything, and in one

709
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 1: or two of the roles. We've had a bit of

710
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: turnover in the last year and a half through nothing

711
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: but circumstances. Right, Hiring people sucks.

712
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 2: It's the hat. I'm not very good at it. I

713
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 2: wish I was better at it.

714
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: So to flip that around, you mentioned, you know you

715
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 1: don't want people to be pressured and the feeler they

716
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 1: might put the employment in jeopardy. But what do you

717
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 1: want people to know about how much power they actually have,

718
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: you know, when it comes to the value of their

719
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 1: retention and in a role.

720
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 2: Well, and you and I both know, like you've just mentioned,

721
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 2: you've gone through some turnover. I've gone through some turnover recently.

722
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 2: It's a nightmare, like as a leader when your staff

723
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 2: leave or change or get other opportunities. But obviously you're

724
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 2: happy for them, but it's a nightmare for you because

725
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 2: it's like an extra stress, it's extra time. There's that

726
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 2: institutional knowledge that they're going to leave the podcast or

727
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 2: the business or whatever. And so actually, as an employer,

728
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 2: unfortunately we can't pay everyone a million dollars or not

729
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 2: yet maybe one now fingers crossed. However, we do want

730
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 2: to pay people fairly so that firstly they feel excited

731
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 2: and stoked to work hard for us, and secondly so

732
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 2: that they're not like twenty four to seven on the

733
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 2: side looking for something else, because actually don't we don't

734
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 2: want that either. So I think often we think, oh,

735
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 2: you know, the big boss or the big company, they've

736
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,799
Speaker 2: got all this power. Okay, sure, they have the power

737
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 2: to give you a job or not. Equally, they're not

738
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 2: a charity, Like, they're not hiring you to be nice.

739
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 2: They're hiring you because you need someone to write the

740
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 2: intros for this podcast, you need someone to book the guests,

741
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 2: you need someone to do the audio mix.

742
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 3: Like.

743
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 2: There's a reason for that because if they don't do that,

744
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 2: your sponsors don't pay you, et cetera, et cetera. So

745
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:34,839
Speaker 2: they have a value as well. So what I would

746
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,720
Speaker 2: say is for everyone listening, like, you have a value

747
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 2: that you are contributing, and it's your job to understand

748
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 2: what is that value specifically what does that look like.

749
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 2: And that's a big part of the reason why we

750
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 2: built the pep Talk RAPP is so that people can

751
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,399
Speaker 2: start to quantify that. Like it's not enough to say

752
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 2: I'm a great you know, audio mixer, I'm a great salesperson. Like, Okay,

753
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 2: that's nice and that's cute, and that's good, But it's

754
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 2: more powerful if you say, you know, I'm a really

755
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 2: impressive style person. I increased revenue seventeen percent year on

756
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,320
Speaker 2: year at my previous company, I started an intern program,

757
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 2: and you know, I also found a way to get

758
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 2: a local restaurant to sponsor a dinner every week to

759
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 2: take clients out, saving the company seven hundred dollars a month.

760
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 2: If you can quantify it in that granular detail, all

761
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 2: of a sudden, we understand your value, We understand the

762
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 2: dollars and cents at how it's going to impact our

763
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 2: bottom line, and so it's a much easier conversation.

764
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 1: Right. One of the most powerful things I ever learned

765
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,799
Speaker 1: about negotiation. There's some Ausie bloke working for a mining

766
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 1: company in USA. Actually yeah, he said, always ask, always

767
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,319
Speaker 1: ask for stuff that it is nothing for them to give.

768
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: And he talked about this particular mining company he worked for.

769
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 1: They were big and they had man Their bill with

770
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 1: quantas would have been ten twelve million a year. Who So,

771
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: because he's in Utah, he said, I want to business

772
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 1: class return tickets from some city to Perth twice a year.

773
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 1: They went, oh, yeah, what else? Because it's fucking nothing

774
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:05,240
Speaker 1: for them to ticket.

775
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 2: But that's like twenty thirty k for him value pre

776
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:12,439
Speaker 2: like close tax for his family, right, yeah, huge? Yeah,

777
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,879
Speaker 2: that mental gymnastics that he had done ahead of time

778
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,240
Speaker 2: for the negotiation. That's the key, right, So you should

779
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 2: be asking about your paying compensation every single year. They

780
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 2: might not say yes every single year, but it is

781
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:27,320
Speaker 2: very reasonable for you to bring it up and have

782
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 2: like a really candid conversation in as a respectful way

783
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:32,840
Speaker 2: every year. Of course, as long as you're bringing receipts

784
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 2: as long as I can. Here is why, because of

785
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:36,399
Speaker 2: look at these awards, look at this value, et cetera.

786
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 2: And also you know, obviously right now with the economy

787
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,759
Speaker 2: hit and missed for some people right now, Okay, you're

788
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 2: not necessarily going to get the pay increases that you

789
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:47,800
Speaker 2: would love. What else can you get? To your point?

790
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 2: Maybe it's it's flights. Can you work from home on

791
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 2: a Friday? Can you start at eleven am on the

792
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 2: Tuesday because you want to learn the cello? Can you

793
00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 2: get free parking? Would they be happy to, you know,

794
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 2: reimburse you for your twenty dollars a week parking. I've

795
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,399
Speaker 2: got clients who get their companies to pay for their

796
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 2: pet insurance. Will they pay for an executive coach? You know?

797
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,320
Speaker 2: For you to join a membership like the Peptoga Community

798
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 2: or like a certain higher educational institution program or something

799
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 2: like that. Like what else is possible even when you're

800
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 2: starting a job. One thing that I find a lot

801
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 2: of people don't know what sure is that like you

802
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,280
Speaker 2: can actually, yes, you can negotiate your salary. But also

803
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 2: a lot of companies are quite happy to pay a

804
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 2: signing bonus because it comes off the books once and

805
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,760
Speaker 2: that's it. It's never a recurring thing. So thinking about

806
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 2: those things ahead of time as well can actually add

807
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 2: like tens of thousands of dollars to your pocket. But

808
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 2: they've actually got a pool of money where they're happy

809
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 2: to pay that, you know.

810
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: So you know, if the spreadsheets are big enough, there's

811
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,879
Speaker 1: the wages exactly as an experience, call it one bucket. Yeah,

812
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 1: but then there's also over here they've got well the

813
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 1: wages is pretty empty. But as far as professional development,

814
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 1: there's actually some budget there totally.

815
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 2: So you're into your public speaking course, you want to whatever,

816
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 2: you know. Like and the other thing I used to

817
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 2: negotiate back when I was a journey we got pretty

818
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 2: good annual leave, but I one year I asked for

819
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 2: a raise and they gave me something but not everything.

820
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 2: And I was like, look how about you and I

821
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 2: just have a wink wink, nudge nudge agreement that I'll

822
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:14,720
Speaker 2: also take an extra ten days of vacation over Christmas

823
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 2: and we just won't put it on the books, and

824
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 2: everyone's a winner. And they're like, yeah, it's totally fine.

825
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 2: Who cares?

826
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 1: So, like, I got to negotiating with it America. Were

827
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:23,280
Speaker 1: you negotiating with an American company?

828
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 2: This was an Australian one. Actually, Wow, So I was

829
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 2: being greedy because I already got pretty good, pretty good holidays.

830
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 2: But they were like, yeah, okay, whatever, like sure, you know,

831
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 2: and so like that has value in and of itself, right,

832
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 2: and so thinking about the non monetary benefits, but you

833
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 2: can't expect them to like just give it to you

834
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 2: on a platter. I mean, fingers crossed. You have an

835
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 2: amazing boss who does that. But the reality is like

836
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,439
Speaker 2: bosses and leaders, you know, they've got sick kids, they're

837
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 2: getting divorced, they've got Netflix shows to watch. There's a

838
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 2: lot happening. And so if you can come to the

839
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,800
Speaker 2: table super prepared and make it easy for them to go,

840
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 2: oh yeah, tick tick tick, sure, happy days, let's keep going,

841
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:00,879
Speaker 2: then it's sort of an brain is for them.

842
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 1: I think the other thing that perhaps employees don't don't

843
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 1: understand often is the longer you're there, the value that

844
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 1: you have, as you mentioned earlier, in the institutional knowledge,

845
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 1: that is, they haven't just invested in you with the

846
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 1: wages and whatever professional development and parking and pen insurance

847
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 1: they have. The more the longer you're there, the more

848
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 1: amount of teeth, the gear that you are in the

849
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 1: machine of the business. Total is all right, and you

850
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 1: become more and more integral to everything working. I mean,

851
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 1: just when you come back from your ten days break,

852
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 1: when you hear people go, fuck, I'm glad you're back,

853
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:40,280
Speaker 1: it's because when you're not there, shit falls apart totally,

854
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:45,839
Speaker 1: and it is your employee will know that. If they

855
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 1: don't know that, you need to show them that you

856
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,240
Speaker 1: need to literally I have. It's funny you mentioned earlier,

857
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 1: bring the receipts. When we go into a radio negotiation.

858
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 1: I've negotiated a couple of my big radio deals by myself.

859
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 1: I'm going to go to one particular. Yeah, yeah, I

860
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 1: had a negotiation coach. It was amazing. Yeah, it was

861
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,839
Speaker 1: real cool actually connecting with him. He's an Amsterdam He's

862
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:07,799
Speaker 1: fucking I met him when I was at business school.

863
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 1: He's cool. He's cool as ship And I remember I

864
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 1: literally walked into it with magazine covers.

865
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 2: Oh, because this is receipts like iru, yeah, like.

866
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: Twenty twenty twenty years ago when I was going for this,

867
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,359
Speaker 1: when I was going for this radio job, going you're

868
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,840
Speaker 1: not going to pay me that because this, this, this, this, this,

869
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 1: And I was terrified and I shouted out double, the

870
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 1: biggest number I could think of, and he said yes,

871
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:39,839
Speaker 1: like that and that In a moment after he said yes,

872
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:41,359
Speaker 1: I was like, fuck, are we add more?

873
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 2: As soon as the number came out of your mouth?

874
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 2: Do you hate that when that happens? I'm sure, but

875
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:51,879
Speaker 2: it was Yeah.

876
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:54,800
Speaker 1: But it was another another one I did and this

877
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 1: is it, you know, to be fairy, and I did

878
00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 1: a lot more homework the next time I did one

879
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 1: for a similar company. I did heaps of homework around

880
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 1: what's the what's the revenue of the business, the how

881
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 1: much do they charge for advertising? How much revenue is

882
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 1: the show I'm working on actually bringing in? What is

883
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:16,320
Speaker 1: my role in that show? What percentage of the overall

884
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 1: you know, P and L of that show? Do I represent?

885
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 1: What is it without me. Yep, and then I this

886
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 1: time around, I put the big, big figure in and

887
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 1: they said yes again. So I might have got my

888
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 1: son from But.

889
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 2: It's so true. But that's the thing. It's like, it's

890
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 2: research is so boring. Preparation is so boring. Like I

891
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 2: wish I could say, like here's a magic salary pill,

892
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 2: take that and you'll be sweet, Like it's it's it's

893
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 2: you've got to just like put in the work. If

894
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 2: you're going in for a five hundred dollars a year

895
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 2: pay rise, I'm pretty sure everyone listening will be fine,

896
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 2: good luck, you'll be great. But if you're going in,

897
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 2: if you want an extra three k, if you want

898
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 2: extra thirteen grand, thirty fifty, you know, I've had a

899
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 2: couple of clients get hut, like six figure pay increases

900
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 2: in one year, Like it's it's insane. If you want that,

901
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 2: you've got to do the work, Like to your point,

902
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 2: you've got to crunch the numbers. You've got to be

903
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 2: tracking your successes, which is why we built the app,

904
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 2: Like you've got to you've got to understand what is

905
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 2: your value literally and tangibly to that business. If you

906
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 2: do not take this job or if you leave what

907
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:18,879
Speaker 2: walks out the door with you, and if you take

908
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 2: two hundred million dollars of clients with you to another agency,

909
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:23,359
Speaker 2: you better believe that they'll be paying what you want.

910
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 2: And so making it really easy and doing that preparation,

911
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 2: you kind of got to, like Nancy Drew detective, the

912
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 2: whole situation. You've got to understand, like what is the

913
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 2: economics of it right now? The share price, what's you know,

914
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 2: the federal government changing legislation that's going to tip everything

915
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 2: on its head. You've got to sort of do that

916
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 2: peripheral vision, like get beneath the iceberg, beneath the surface,

917
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 2: like to kind of really understand it. Because when you've

918
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:49,280
Speaker 2: got that context, you negotiate from a place of power.

919
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:51,320
Speaker 2: And so one of the things that like, and I

920
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 2: don't know if you did this with your coach as well,

921
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 2: one of the things I always talk about is like

922
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 2: the three WS of negotiation, like the WWW, like the wish,

923
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 2: the want, and the walk. So like you mentioned the OMG,

924
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 2: I can't believe I said that number out loud. Figure

925
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 2: that's like your wish, Like you want to think about it,

926
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 2: everyone who's listening, Like, just think about this banana's number,

927
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 2: and then like think about a bigger one and whatever

928
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 2: you think about, add GST at least right, So that's

929
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 2: like your wish number out on one end, and then

930
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 2: we want to slide down the scale to the other

931
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 2: end is your walk number. So you're like, that's the

932
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 2: number where it's like I cannot get out of bed

933
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 2: for lesson this because childcare, food, car repayments, mortgage, whatever,

934
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 2: or just like you're like, I got paid this much

935
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 2: when I was like ten years younger. I'm not doing

936
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 2: it right. So you've got to understand what's that walk figure,

937
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 2: and then if that's what they offer you or whatever,

938
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 2: you either say no or you take it because you

939
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 2: need to keep looking for something else, right, So whatever

940
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:46,840
Speaker 2: that number is, and then the want number is the

941
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 2: number where you're like, you know what, I'd be stoked

942
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 2: to work hard for this amount of money, and I

943
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 2: think that that feels like a fair exchange. So if

944
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 2: you've got those three numbers in your back pocket, then

945
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 2: when you go in you can kind of more easily go.

946
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 2: You can sort of riff up and down depending on

947
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 2: their vibe. I mean, ideally if you can get them

948
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 2: to anchor I'd love to tell people always also to

949
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 2: talk about like how can you throw out a number

950
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 2: without throwing out a number? So like, let's send this

951
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,399
Speaker 2: job sounds really interesting. I'm so impressed with the team.

952
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 2: I'm super well compensated where I am right now. I'm

953
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:19,840
Speaker 2: really happy they look after me, which is amazing. I

954
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 2: feel so valued there. So I'd love to understand what

955
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 2: if you budgeted for this role, so you kind of

956
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 2: like implying, dang, I am such a baller, like if

957
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:28,800
Speaker 2: you miss out on me, like good luck, But you

958
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 2: also haven't given them a nut, right you're trying to

959
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 2: get them to come to the party. So then that

960
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:33,800
Speaker 2: way you can use your wish want walk figure to

961
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 2: sort of figure out where you go.

962
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 1: It is important to know, though, they have a wish

963
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 1: want walk as well.

964
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 2: On thousand percent one thousand percent, and that's that's the tango,

965
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:47,320
Speaker 2: isn't it. That's the dance, and then they want you.

966
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 2: But then you don't want to overshoot because then because

967
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 2: also if they've got one hundred thousand for the role

968
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 2: and you throw out two fifty, then they don't want

969
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 2: you to be unhappy with the one hundred thousand. That

970
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:00,279
Speaker 2: they've got right, because then they're going to think you're

971
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 2: going to stay very long. So it is, it is.

972
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 2: It is a challenging dones and that's where the research

973
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 2: and like obviously you can google it, but also like

974
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:08,640
Speaker 2: talking to real people, which you found out in your

975
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 2: American negotiations, like understanding there's certain salaries and stuff that

976
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 2: is not on glass door, Like you really have to

977
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 2: know people in the industry to kind of give you

978
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:17,760
Speaker 2: a sense of what's realistic.

979
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:22,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I most definitely. I have had a wish and

980
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 1: a want and a walk figure that were all the

981
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 1: same number.

982
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 3: And it was.

983
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 1: Two and a half more than I should have been getting.

984
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 1: And I've talked about this on the podcast before and

985
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: I angrily faxed it off and then didn't hear anything

986
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:41,240
Speaker 1: for three days, and then I've got a text message

987
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 1: from someone adjacent saying I think they're going to go

988
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 1: in another direction. Mate. I just literally blew myself out.

989
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 1: I destroyed because I did not do my research. I

990
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:53,800
Speaker 1: just did not have my own humility. You have to

991
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 1: understand it. How much are they actually going to pay me? Like,

992
00:45:57,640 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 1: what's my ego telling me I'm worth?

993
00:45:59,400 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 3: Right?

994
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 1: What's the actual market rate? Like be smart about this. Yeah, like, yeah,

995
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 1: I'd love a million bucks for a gig. That's a

996
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 1: nice round number. Great our market rates one hundred and six.

997
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 1: I'm not going to get a million, no exactly.

998
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 2: And it's really hard to know. And one of the things,

999
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 2: you know, body language expert's talking about this all the time,

1000
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 2: like if you can have the conversation in person or

1001
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 2: at the very least on a video call, it's really

1002
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:27,319
Speaker 2: powerful because you'll you'll be able to say things like listen,

1003
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 2: I was thinking north for six figures and you can

1004
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 2: straight away see what is their face doing and they

1005
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 2: like or are they like if you know, like you

1006
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 2: can you want to be able to pick up on

1007
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 2: those non nonverbal cues as well, so that again you

1008
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:42,879
Speaker 2: can be like obviously though very keen to understand your

1009
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 2: creative genius, so let's make it work. You can kind

1010
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 2: of like straight away like figure out a way to

1011
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 2: find a consensus.

1012
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 1: The third w It sounds fun to say walk, yeah,

1013
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:55,879
Speaker 1: but man, when we need a job, we need a job,

1014
00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 1: would you say to people about the walk?

1015
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:00,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, we do need a and we can have a

1016
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 2: whole other conversation on Like I'm a huge fan of

1017
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 2: having a plan B. I think I think you've always

1018
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 2: got to have a plan B. If you're an entrepreneur

1019
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:10,240
Speaker 2: like we are. If you've got a big corporate, fancy

1020
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:12,239
Speaker 2: job at a big company that's never going to go under,

1021
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 2: guess what. Sometimes you end up on the front page

1022
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 2: of the AFAR for the wrong reason and a whole

1023
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 2: bunch of jobs get lost. Right, So I think you

1024
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:23,880
Speaker 2: always have to have options because also, firstly it's good practice,

1025
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 2: but secondly, it means that you then approach your work

1026
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:28,840
Speaker 2: from a different energy, because all of a sudden, you're like,

1027
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 2: I love this job and I want to be here,

1028
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:32,759
Speaker 2: but if it's not feeling good and if you're not

1029
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 2: respecting me, I also have the energy where I'll go

1030
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 2: to that door if I need you and if I

1031
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:38,479
Speaker 2: want to. I mean, we could talk a whole bunch

1032
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 2: about like savings and having those financial plans as well,

1033
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,919
Speaker 2: which I appreciate is not possible for everyone. But yeah,

1034
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 2: having that mindset to there are always other options for you.

1035
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 2: You know, it might be very difficult and it might

1036
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:54,800
Speaker 2: take you some time, but know that there's people in

1037
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 2: your life and in the world and community who want

1038
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 2: to support you. If you're in a toxic situation, if

1039
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 2: something is happening that's illegal, there's people that can support

1040
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 2: you through that. Truly. Please lean on your friends and

1041
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:06,800
Speaker 2: family as well, by the way, because they want the

1042
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 2: best for you too. But you know, surrounding yourself with

1043
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 2: a village makes that process of do I stay or

1044
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:14,840
Speaker 2: do I go? How do I afford to stay or go?

1045
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 2: It makes that whole process a little less stressful and

1046
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:20,440
Speaker 2: more manageable, right, Like, we just need to know that

1047
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:23,359
Speaker 2: there's options, and if I took this step and then

1048
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 2: this step and then this step, maybe this would be possible.

1049
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 1: Understanding that you've got somewhere else to go totally gives you.

1050
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:37,719
Speaker 1: That gives you that power, and also understanding that it's

1051
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:41,760
Speaker 1: okay to take a gig that might not be everything

1052
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:45,360
Speaker 1: that you want, but what it does give you in

1053
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 1: the non monetary terms might be the time to on

1054
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:53,440
Speaker 1: your own dime, develop something else about yourself, get yourself

1055
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:55,840
Speaker 1: ready for the next thing. Yeah. There are people in

1056
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 1: my life, very successful people who are operating at about

1057
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 1: four five percent of their capacity, and I keep calling them,

1058
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 1: come on, let's do this thing, and they're like, my

1059
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:09,719
Speaker 1: kid's only going to be once.

1060
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, right now.

1061
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 1: I can't do it. And I'm living here in these

1062
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 1: standards right now for this amount of time because I

1063
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:21,439
Speaker 1: cannot buy. I cannot buy that time with this kid

1064
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:23,719
Speaker 1: to make sure I can shepherd them through this part

1065
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 1: of their life. Yeah, and it's epic. I'm disappointed because

1066
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 1: I can't do a thing with them, but I'm like, fuck.

1067
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, the season, it's right, Like, there's seasons in

1068
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:35,279
Speaker 2: your life. There's seasons where you want to burn the

1069
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:38,240
Speaker 2: camel at both ends. There's seasons when you need to recover,

1070
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 2: like from a personal or a professional failure or trauma

1071
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:44,879
Speaker 2: or whatever the case they be. And I think also,

1072
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 2: like I love what you just said, Like it's okay

1073
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:49,840
Speaker 2: to be at forty five percent sometimes and sometimes you

1074
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:51,359
Speaker 2: might take a job and you're like it's too easy,

1075
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:53,840
Speaker 2: it's too jor but you know what, I can do

1076
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 2: my seven point five hours a day and I can

1077
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:59,800
Speaker 2: just like rest and recuperate and maybe be creative on

1078
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 2: the sad or just start to think about what could

1079
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 2: that look like again. And again, I know it's a

1080
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 2: privilege even to be having these conversations, but yeah, thinking

1081
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:08,920
Speaker 2: about the fact that it doesn't have to be like that, forever, right,

1082
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:10,839
Speaker 2: And I love the idea of taking like the road

1083
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:13,239
Speaker 2: less travel and sometimes going off the beaten path. Let's

1084
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:15,400
Speaker 2: just see what happens, because it I mean, I didn't, like,

1085
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 2: I didn't figure that I would start a tech company

1086
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:20,279
Speaker 2: and move to New York, Like that's so random. But

1087
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 2: like here I am, and like I don't regret it,

1088
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:24,719
Speaker 2: and it's amazing. It's a journey every day. So I

1089
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 2: feel like sometimes taking the road less travel can lead

1090
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:29,280
Speaker 2: you to even cooler places than you could imagine.

1091
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 1: What's the situation in Australia when it comes to discussing

1092
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:42,479
Speaker 1: your pay because in most of my contracts it says

1093
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:45,760
Speaker 1: you can't tell anyone what these deals are so quite.

1094
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:49,359
Speaker 2: Right, So they actually overturned that legislation recently. So yeah,

1095
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:51,400
Speaker 2: I used to have the same clauses in my contracts

1096
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:54,000
Speaker 2: as well. A lot of the big banks have those

1097
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 2: causes in there. They now they now are not enforceable

1098
00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 2: or cannot be in contracts anymore. So now you can

1099
00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:03,319
Speaker 2: actually be candid with your colleagues. So that's changed, though

1100
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 2: it's only only in the last year or two, so

1101
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 2: it is a new legislation, legislative change that they did

1102
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 2: the FEDS did in camera recently. Yeah, because it's interesting

1103
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 2: those pay secrecy clauses were outlawed in the United States

1104
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 2: in the UK quite a long time ago, but Australia

1105
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 2: has just come to the party too, which is awesome

1106
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 2: and so but a lot of us have these hangovers

1107
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:22,800
Speaker 2: because we used to have contracts that said that, so

1108
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 2: we kind of are still fearful of that. But you

1109
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 2: can comfortably talk about your salary now in theory without

1110
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 2: fear of reprisal. And again we also know, by the way,

1111
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 2: it's also illegal to pay women less and I have

1112
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 2: I know from first time experience, and lots of your

1113
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:40,759
Speaker 2: listeners know it happens anyway, So again it's just understanding

1114
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:42,800
Speaker 2: that like even though sure you could get a lawyer

1115
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 2: and sue them and say, well I was allowed to

1116
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:45,840
Speaker 2: talk about it, but you just want to do it

1117
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:47,480
Speaker 2: in a way that again, I just don't want anyone

1118
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:50,080
Speaker 2: like having super negative consequences as a result of that.

1119
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 2: But in theory you can absolutely talk about it, which

1120
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:55,800
Speaker 2: is good because it means that we're taking away the

1121
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:57,920
Speaker 2: secrecy around it, which is especially good for women and

1122
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:02,879
Speaker 2: underrepresented groups because most likely to have the negative repercussions

1123
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:04,880
Speaker 2: of those clauses. So it's a really good step in

1124
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:05,919
Speaker 2: the right direction for sure.

1125
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 1: Meggie, I know you're never going to do it, but

1126
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 1: let's just say. Simon Holmes Court swings in on a

1127
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:13,760
Speaker 1: rope made of bed cheets with a dag of between

1128
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:16,440
Speaker 1: his teeth and says, moving back to Australia, you're going

1129
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 1: to go for the seat of whatever it is on

1130
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:23,920
Speaker 1: the goalie. You're going to be a teal and I

1131
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:27,279
Speaker 1: love it. Or you're a perfect candidate because you know,

1132
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:30,320
Speaker 1: if you look at their casting process, they you fit it.

1133
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:32,719
Speaker 1: I trust me. I've spoken to three of them and

1134
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:34,960
Speaker 1: you've become Minister for Women in Australia.

1135
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1136
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 1: Right, what's the first thing you do?

1137
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 3: Wow?

1138
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:42,240
Speaker 2: What a great question. And clearly I haven't been thinking

1139
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:45,719
Speaker 2: big enough because I haven't given this a lot of thought.

1140
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:49,320
Speaker 2: I think the first thing that I would do is listen.

1141
00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:51,200
Speaker 2: The first thing that I would do is listen, So

1142
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:52,799
Speaker 2: I would go out. I would be I would want

1143
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 2: to start with young women in particular because obviously I

1144
00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 2: want to change the hearts and minds at that level.

1145
00:52:58,080 --> 00:52:59,799
Speaker 2: So I'd want to be talking to educators and want

1146
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 2: to talking to teachers, to schools, to childcare works, and

1147
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:05,480
Speaker 2: I would want to understand what they need, what they're seeing,

1148
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 2: and how we could help support them so that the

1149
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:10,640
Speaker 2: next generation of men and women, by the way, can

1150
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 2: be amazing advocates and amazing change makers going forward. So

1151
00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 2: I think that's where I would start, would be with

1152
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:18,840
Speaker 2: young people and understanding from the people who deal with

1153
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 2: them at the cold face as to what they think

1154
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:23,800
Speaker 2: is necessary for change. But what a great question that

1155
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 2: I clearly need to ponder. I clearly need to ponder further.

1156
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:33,160
Speaker 1: So you become Minister for women. Let's take the largest

1157
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:37,279
Speaker 1: unpaid gig in Australia. You become Minister for Women at

1158
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:39,720
Speaker 1: the next election, what do you do about childcare?

1159
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 2: I guess if I had unlimited budget, there's a lot

1160
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:46,320
Speaker 2: that I would do about childcare. And I'm also a

1161
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:48,800
Speaker 2: realist in the sense that I understand, you know, budgetary

1162
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 2: restrictions and stuff like that. But let's assume that I've

1163
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:53,840
Speaker 2: got unlimited budget. I would follow this.

1164
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:55,799
Speaker 1: Give if you wish, you what in your walk the.

1165
00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:00,959
Speaker 3: Childcare solution for Australia would I would follow the Scandinavian

1166
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 3: model right, which is basically like which is basically state

1167
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:07,480
Speaker 3: funded childcare, which also has by the way, among the

1168
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:09,960
Speaker 3: lowest gender pay gap in the world because men and

1169
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 3: women are equally equally supported take and are mandated by

1170
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:17,759
Speaker 3: the way to take equal parential leave if they want

1171
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 3: to access their paid parential lea, so they get very generous.

1172
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:22,440
Speaker 2: I think it's twelve months of paid parental leave. However,

1173
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:25,239
Speaker 2: if they want to access that, both partners need to

1174
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:27,880
Speaker 2: take equal time out of the workforce, hence reducing that

1175
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:31,200
Speaker 2: gender pay gap based on that. Yeah, so I would

1176
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:33,200
Speaker 2: be looking to the scanner. So perhaps the first thing

1177
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 2: I would do would be either fly them to me

1178
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:36,680
Speaker 2: or fly to them to just sort of get the

1179
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:40,040
Speaker 2: download and look at the research right of what examples

1180
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:42,640
Speaker 2: have worked really well, and it is in Scandinavia where

1181
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:45,640
Speaker 2: we're seeing the most success. I would want state funded childcare.

1182
00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:47,120
Speaker 2: At the very least, I would want childcare to be

1183
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 2: a tax deduction because I think that that's fair and reasonable.

1184
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:52,960
Speaker 2: And the thing is like, we need more women back

1185
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:56,600
Speaker 2: in the workforce, right because in terms of GDP growing,

1186
00:54:56,719 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 2: we need to have more participation in the workforce and

1187
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:02,840
Speaker 2: reporting families to know that their children are safe and

1188
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:05,480
Speaker 2: cared for a nurtured while they're contributing to the economy

1189
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 2: is one of the most important and most important things

1190
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:09,360
Speaker 2: we can do to change that.

1191
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:14,359
Speaker 1: We talked about employees, but for employers who they want

1192
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:18,080
Speaker 1: to do the right thing, what can employee ers have

1193
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:21,719
Speaker 1: a look at? How can they address unconscious bias that

1194
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:24,080
Speaker 1: they may not realize they have. What are some questions

1195
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:24,840
Speaker 1: they can ask themselves.

1196
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 2: What they can do is they can do a pay

1197
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:28,400
Speaker 2: audit to start with, right, and if they're one of

1198
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 2: the big employers, they will already have be doing that

1199
00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 2: because they're mandated to do that with the Women and

1200
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 2: Gender Equality Agency in Australia. In the UK they're mandated

1201
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:37,840
Speaker 2: to report as well. There's no compulsory reporting in the

1202
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:40,400
Speaker 2: United States, but they can do a benchmarking of like,

1203
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:42,719
Speaker 2: what is happening with our data right now? What are

1204
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:45,080
Speaker 2: the numbers telling us? And then actually, you know, one

1205
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:47,480
Speaker 2: of our clients over here is Salesforce And what they

1206
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:50,800
Speaker 2: actually do is every single year they read benchmark and

1207
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:53,120
Speaker 2: every single year, again they're trying to do the right thing.

1208
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:56,440
Speaker 2: Every single year, a little bit of that gap creeps

1209
00:55:56,480 --> 00:55:58,840
Speaker 2: back in. Again. It's not because they're bad humans necessarily,

1210
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:01,800
Speaker 2: it's because of that unconscious and as humans we are fallible.

1211
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:05,640
Speaker 2: We offer John, you know, eighty seven, and we offer

1212
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:07,759
Speaker 2: Joan eighty five, and it's not a big deal. And

1213
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:10,719
Speaker 2: yet every year, with inflation whatever, that gap gets bigger

1214
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 2: and bigger and bigger. So the biggest thing is consistency

1215
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:16,360
Speaker 2: and awareness and just being open to having these conversations.

1216
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:21,279
Speaker 2: I mean, like transparent pay bands, transparent salary advertising is

1217
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:24,440
Speaker 2: really powerful too, because then it just keeps everyone on

1218
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 2: the same page.

1219
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:27,960
Speaker 1: It would be wonderful if when you're talking these really

1220
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:33,239
Speaker 1: big companies that everybody hired, like the Berlin Philharmonic hired that.

1221
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:37,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, the blind audition, yeah.

1222
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:40,319
Speaker 1: Amazing for people who don't know. The story is also

1223
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:42,080
Speaker 1: they had to look at the orchestra of like one

1224
00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:44,040
Speaker 1: hundred and eighteen people. That's a big orchestra. They're like

1225
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 1: a lot of dudes, and so that all right then,

1226
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:50,400
Speaker 1: and so they basically put a bed sheet in the

1227
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:54,840
Speaker 1: middle of the stage and everyone walked out completely unseen

1228
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:56,480
Speaker 1: by the conductor and the other people that are making

1229
00:56:56,520 --> 00:56:59,080
Speaker 1: the call. And they were to walk out on stage

1230
00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:01,640
Speaker 1: without shoes because you can tell what kind of shoes

1231
00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:04,080
Speaker 1: someone's wearing by the way they let versus a flat yep,

1232
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:07,320
Speaker 1: and look, what do you reckon? Happened to the gender

1233
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:10,400
Speaker 1: makeup of the orchestra after that casting session? What do

1234
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:12,040
Speaker 1: you know? It was fifty to fifty.

1235
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:17,000
Speaker 2: Isn't that fascinating though it? I mean, perhaps I should

1236
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:19,640
Speaker 2: revisit my previous answer. Maybe if I became Minister for Women,

1237
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:21,640
Speaker 2: the first thing I'd do is, like, you know, every

1238
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 2: job interview that had to be a sheet and like

1239
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:26,400
Speaker 2: your voice had to be altered. Maybe that would change things.

1240
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:30,120
Speaker 1: Hey, that's Pep talk her the app. That's the extra

1241
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:33,600
Speaker 1: that's when you do the live AI avatar and that's

1242
00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:36,560
Speaker 1: how you interview. There we go, that's how your interview.

1243
00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:39,440
Speaker 1: That could be that could be really interesting. At what

1244
00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 1: point do at what point do you want young women

1245
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:44,440
Speaker 1: to start, you know, looking into this kind of stuff,

1246
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:46,080
Speaker 1: maybe getting the app and having a look and when

1247
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 1: at what point could it be useful for them?

1248
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:50,240
Speaker 2: Listen any age, as we talked about, you know at

1249
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:52,600
Speaker 2: the age of eight that the gender pay gap is starting,

1250
00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:55,520
Speaker 2: and I think like awareness of this is important at

1251
00:57:55,560 --> 00:57:57,600
Speaker 2: any age. I mean, we have men that use the app.

1252
00:57:57,600 --> 00:57:59,160
Speaker 2: It's mainly women, but we do have men that use

1253
00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:01,480
Speaker 2: the app as well, like what is the age in Australia,

1254
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:03,320
Speaker 2: like fourteen or nine months still when you can start

1255
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:05,400
Speaker 2: to get a job, and often at that age, right

1256
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:07,840
Speaker 2: you're going into I went to Hungry Jack, So you know,

1257
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:10,600
Speaker 2: it's very structured in terms of what the pay is,

1258
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 2: but still it's an awareness, and it's awareness like if

1259
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:16,160
Speaker 2: there's an opportunity to go for drive through and you

1260
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:18,000
Speaker 2: get paid more on drive through, why wouldn't you put

1261
00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:20,120
Speaker 2: yourself up for that? And you can keep a track

1262
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:22,680
Speaker 2: of all the positive stories of you know, in the

1263
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:24,680
Speaker 2: kitchen and the customer service that you can then put

1264
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:27,080
Speaker 2: forward when you're talking to your manager as to why

1265
00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:28,920
Speaker 2: you'd like to be considered. So I personally don't think

1266
00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:31,080
Speaker 2: it's ever too you like, I think like at any

1267
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:34,919
Speaker 2: age we can start to teach little girls and little

1268
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:37,480
Speaker 2: boys to understand the value that they bring, to understand

1269
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:41,080
Speaker 2: the power of tracking and recognizing their successes and writing

1270
00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:43,760
Speaker 2: them down not just for when they negotiate, but also

1271
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:46,200
Speaker 2: for their own mindset. Because I'm sure you and I

1272
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:48,960
Speaker 2: both know that we've both had moments in our career

1273
00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:53,560
Speaker 2: where we've spiraled in a negative way and actually tracking

1274
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:56,680
Speaker 2: positive feedback and not listening to the haters or the

1275
00:58:56,760 --> 00:58:59,080
Speaker 2: one bad piece of feedback actually is like a muscle.

1276
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:00,760
Speaker 2: It's like if I go to the gym and I

1277
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:02,920
Speaker 2: do these like if I like flex my bicep or

1278
00:59:02,960 --> 00:59:06,160
Speaker 2: whatever once or twice ever at the gym, Like I'm

1279
00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:08,000
Speaker 2: not going to have super tone dums, right, But if

1280
00:59:08,040 --> 00:59:11,200
Speaker 2: I do it once a week for two years, three years,

1281
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:13,320
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, these are massive biceps that are

1282
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:17,120
Speaker 2: strong and that are like rivaling Old Schwartzenegger. Right. So

1283
00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:18,439
Speaker 2: it's kind of like you want to do the same

1284
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:20,640
Speaker 2: thing for your neural pathways. You want to focus on

1285
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:23,040
Speaker 2: where is the value that I at? What are people

1286
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:25,240
Speaker 2: telling me are my strengths? Like how can I focus

1287
00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:27,680
Speaker 2: on that so that when that negative feedback or that

1288
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:31,400
Speaker 2: constructive feedback inevitably comes, you're able to bet better handle

1289
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:35,440
Speaker 2: that and reframe your mindset more quickly so you don't spiral,

1290
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:39,200
Speaker 2: as I unfortunately have done several times in my career.

1291
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:41,720
Speaker 1: I'm so happy you'll going to chase this spree to

1292
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:45,640
Speaker 1: you and it's you want. You can absolutely tell your

1293
00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:48,720
Speaker 1: family that no, it went a long time, tell I

1294
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 1: don't know, just sit quietly in your coworking space. Yeah,

1295
00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:54,000
Speaker 1: not going back by yourself.

1296
00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:56,080
Speaker 2: To my screaming two year old. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I

1297
00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:59,160
Speaker 2: might take myself for dinner on my own. What worst

1298
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:03,360
Speaker 2: that would be. I'm in the season of having dinner

1299
01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:06,160
Speaker 2: on my own once a week. That's my current professional season.

1300
01:00:06,160 --> 01:00:09,080
Speaker 2: I'll Michel Ryan with a book.

1301
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:11,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, just take a book. Yeah, I just read a book.

1302
01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 1: Have dinner by myself and read a book.

1303
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe I will, Maybe I will.

1304
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:19,560
Speaker 1: There's a great good and look at shit on your phone.

1305
01:00:20,840 --> 01:00:21,480
Speaker 1: Read something.

1306
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:25,000
Speaker 2: Actually, one of my dear friends, Adam Barmino, who's an

1307
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:29,760
Speaker 2: amazing cameraman in Sydney, he actually taught me to go

1308
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:31,520
Speaker 2: to dinner and leave your phone at home.

1309
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:33,520
Speaker 1: And it's a very good one.

1310
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:36,600
Speaker 2: Just own it and like, what a great thing today.

1311
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:38,360
Speaker 2: It's kind of radical on this day and age, isn't

1312
01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:40,280
Speaker 2: it to do that and have without a.

1313
01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:43,800
Speaker 1: Phone meals taste delicious If you don't take a picture

1314
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:44,160
Speaker 1: of them.

1315
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:47,120
Speaker 2: They they sure do. And you might just strike up

1316
01:00:47,120 --> 01:00:49,000
Speaker 2: a conversation with someone who may or may not open

1317
01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:51,120
Speaker 2: the next professional door for you. Who knows.

1318
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:57,000
Speaker 1: Ah, there's that as well, right, Thank you so much.

1319
01:00:57,400 --> 01:00:59,400
Speaker 2: Oh, it's a pleasure, so nice to chat with you.

1320
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:04,800
Speaker 1: That was Meggie Palmer pep talkhurd dot com is the app.

1321
01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:08,200
Speaker 1: It's such a valuable resource. She's an absolutely go get her.

1322
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:11,520
Speaker 1: I honestly, after hanging up from her, I wanted to

1323
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:15,080
Speaker 1: we talked for like another hour. I wanted to start

1324
01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:17,120
Speaker 1: like after listening to her, I wanted to start a

1325
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:21,920
Speaker 1: five businesses that day. I was so jazzed with enthusiasm

1326
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:25,120
Speaker 1: and reframing my own ability, which is that's what she

1327
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:27,920
Speaker 1: does better than anybody else, which is why she's in

1328
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:30,640
Speaker 1: Brooklyn with her son and her husband, making big, big moves,

1329
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:33,800
Speaker 1: and I love to see it. I stoked for her.

1330
01:01:34,640 --> 01:01:36,520
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being here. If you want

1331
01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:38,000
Speaker 1: to get on the newsletter, if you want to let

1332
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:39,600
Speaker 1: me know anything, if you have a question, if you

1333
01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:42,320
Speaker 1: want to point something out, if you've got questions, comments, concerns, whatever,

1334
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:45,320
Speaker 1: there's a little button underneath every article and the newsletter.

1335
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:47,040
Speaker 1: You just click link in the show notes, you'll see

1336
01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:48,680
Speaker 1: the button at the bottom of the article. Just pop

1337
01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:51,320
Speaker 1: me a note there. Thanks for being here. I'll see

1338
01:01:51,320 --> 01:01:56,160
Speaker 1: you back here on Friday. Here's the ai VO credit roll.

1339
01:01:57,360 --> 01:01:59,840
Speaker 2: This episode was brought to you by Andy mar on

1340
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:04,160
Speaker 2: Audio post Production, Becksade on Video post production to hyder

1341
01:02:04,240 --> 01:02:09,000
Speaker 2: On Music. Ausher's executive function assistant is Monica Chapman. Sign

1342
01:02:09,120 --> 01:02:12,000
Speaker 2: up to the regular newsletter and get every episode ever

1343
01:02:12,280 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 2: at osheginsburg dot com.