WEBVTT - Tim Flannery on the Coalition’s energy plan 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:04.400 Look, the two party system has made change difficult, but 0:00:04.480 --> 0:00:07.360 we're seeing a breakdown now of the two party system. 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:10.560 I think as a scientist, Tim Flannery says he's seeing 0:00:10.560 --> 0:00:14.480 climate change kicked around Parliament for decades and Australians are 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:17.800 already paying for the years of denial, distraction and delay 0:00:17.840 --> 0:00:19.120 from our politicians. 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:21.479 You know, I've seen a decades worth of warming. Just 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:24.680 in a couple of years, temperatures have been like about 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:27.480 one point six degrees above So you know, if we 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:30.360 are to deal with that adequately, we need to cut 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:33.120 harder and faster than we ever thought about doing before. 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:36.840 While the last election sent the major parties a clear 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:40.280 message that Australia should act on climate change, he says 0:00:40.320 --> 0:00:43.879 this election is all about how, and he's optimistic that 0:00:43.960 --> 0:00:48.479 this could actually be the last climate election. From Schwartz Media, 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:57.920 I'm Rubby Jones. This is seven am today, Chief Counselor 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:01.000 of the Climate Council, Tim Flannery, and the choice Australians 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:05.000 are facing between expanding renewables or repeating the mistakes of 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:18.880 the past. It's Monday, April fourteen, So Tim, three years 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:23.160 ago we had Australia's so called climate election, and at 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:26.119 the moment that that election was called, Australia was really 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:28.560 an outlier on the global stage when it came to 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:31.399 taking real action on the climate crisis. We were not 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:35.480 addressing the enormous problem that was confronting us. So how 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:39.039 much progress has been made since Labor took power? 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:42.480 Look, a lot of progress has been made. We were 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:47.680 virtually global parias under the Morrison government. Back then. There 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:50.560 was hardly any evs on the road. Today ten percent 0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:54.400 of castles or evs roughly where now at about forty 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:58.240 percent of the energy that's produced in Eastern Australia is 0:01:58.280 --> 0:02:01.400 coming from clean sources you know, wind, solar and hydro 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:05.280 and that's a record high. It's fantastic. So we've made 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:06.960 a lot of progress, but we've got a long way 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:07.280 to go. 0:02:08.120 --> 0:02:10.560 Okay. So with that in mind, then what are Labor 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:13.480 offering by way of climate policy should they win this election. 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:19.080 Labor is offering a continuation of their twenty thirty target, 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:22.480 which is eighty two percent of electricity from clean sources 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:25.160 by twenty thirty, so you know, by twenty twenty eight 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:27.680 we should be at least at seventy percent according to 0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:28.880 that policy. 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:32.360 The problem at the moment is the upfront cost of 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:36.519 a battery is too high for too many people. We're 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:37.200 going to fix that. 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:40.600 They've also got a just announced a new policy on 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:43.359 batteries in communities. 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:46.720 Where the battery families can store the free energy generated 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:49.320 on a sunny day when no one time, and use 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:52.480 it when they need it and every house. 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:57.160 Which will again help us accelerate that transition from gigantic 0:02:57.160 --> 0:03:00.640 and polluting fossil fuel plants through to win in solar 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:04.760 and batteries. So you know, they are the positive things 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:06.919 that I'm seeing coming out of the Labor Party. 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:10.840 And the Albanezy government is still approving new coal mines 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:14.040 and oil and gas projects. So how can that possibly 0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:16.519 square with a commitment to tackle the climate crisis. 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:20.600 Well, it doesn't, is the answer. I'm no fan of 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:23.280 some of the compromises that have been made with the 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:27.200 fossil fuel industry over the years by various political parties, 0:03:27.560 --> 0:03:29.960 but the fact is that the politics is the art 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:34.600 of compromise. That's what it's about. Otherwise it's warfare. So 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:36.880 we have to live in a real world with that. 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:40.560 Let's move as fast as we can. Let's take heed 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:43.440 of the visionaries among us who think we can move 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:46.080 faster and do that, but compromise is always going to 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:48.880 be part of the political process. What we need to 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:52.160 do globally is to just phase out all of the 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:55.840 fossil fuels. I guess the Australian government argument is that, 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:59.040 you know, if we stop producing then people just buy 0:03:59.080 --> 0:04:02.120 it from somewhere else and we lose all influence. That 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:04.440 may be true, but what Australia really needs to do 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:08.680 is engage globally with all of the producers in a 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:12.400 way that lets us cut that production of fossil fuels. 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:15.600 And that means looking at our own legislation and regulation 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:19.880 to make sure that we are not approving new fields 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:23.400 and new resources that will simply add to the problem. 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:26.440 Okay, well, let's talk about the coalitions policies going into 0:04:26.440 --> 0:04:30.640 this election. The major one being nuclear, so building seven 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:32.839 nuclear reactors across Australia. 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:36.640 Our policy is to make sure that we can underpin 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:39.840 our economy with a stable energy market for the next 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:40.760 one hundred years. 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:42.680 So the et tell me what you think of the plan. 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:45.920 Well, I've got some problems with it. One is the 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:50.039 water use that the nuclear power entails, so it's about 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:52.960 a quarter more than a standard coualified power plant. And 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:55.560 we've already seen the problems that we have on the 0:04:55.560 --> 0:04:57.919 western slopes where some of these reactors are going to 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:01.320 be placed with drought and if we can't keep them cool, 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:03.680 they melt down. So you know, you've got to have 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:07.440 the water resources number one. Number two. You know, the 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:12.560 du opposition has talked about scaling down the public service. Well, 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:14.320 the fact is, if you're going to have nuclear power, 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:16.919 you need a massive public service to look into the 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:20.640 regulation of that and the safety of that industry. You know, 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:23.719 after all, in the US the EPA, over eighty percent 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:26.159 of their employees are dealing with the nuclear industry, one 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:29.760 hundred thousand people. So we've got big problems there in 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:33.120 terms of cost and contradiction in policy. I mean, thirdly, 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:36.520 and most importantly, if we wait till twenty forty for 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:40.679 nuclear power with this uncertain technology, we'll be adding about 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:43.920 two billion tons of CO two to the atmosphere and 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:45.719 that is totally unacceptable. 0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:48.800 So what do you think the real motivation is behind 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:49.719 the nuclear plan? 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:53.480 Look, I think that this is a delaying tactic. Ultimately, 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:56.760 people just want to make another year's profit from their 0:05:56.760 --> 0:05:59.560 old coal plants or their gas plants, and regardless of 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:02.599 the concert sequences, and that idea we'd have a nuclear 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:05.360 plant B twenty forty is almost the best case scenario. 0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:08.599 I mean, we don't have a nuclear workforce anymore. We 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:10.560 used to in the seventies and eighties, but they're all 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:13.200 retired or dead now, so we've got to recruit new people. 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:16.320 We're dealing with an unproven technology. There's not a single 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:19.600 small scale reactor operating on a power grid anywhere that 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:22.039 I'm aware of in the world. Let's pie in the 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:26.920 sky rubbish. To stake Australia's energy future, which is really 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:30.159 the future of the economy on some untested idea like 0:06:30.200 --> 0:06:33.640 that is appalling. In the same breath, I can say 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:36.680 Labour is not doing enough, But I really do think 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:39.760 that if we continue to accelerate with the wind and 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:43.200 solar deployment and battery deployment that we've been doing for 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:46.160 the last three years, this will be the last climate election. 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:50.920 You really think that this could be the last climate election. 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:54.159 Look, I think Ruby this is the critical election in 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:58.520 many ways. If Dunton wins this election, we'll see one 0:06:58.600 --> 0:07:01.120 climate election after the other after the other, and we'll 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:04.040 see the lies continue to be propagated way out to 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:07.920 twenty forty and probably beyond. If we see a continuation 0:07:08.080 --> 0:07:11.200 of current policy or even an increase in ambition, this 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:14.880 will be the last climate election because by twenty twenty 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:18.720 eight will be seventy percent reliant on clean energy rather 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:21.560 than fossil fuels on the main grid, electric cars will 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:24.320 be more common, industry will have transitioned, at least in 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:28.040 part across Australia, and I think at that point there's 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:29.080 no turning back. 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:34.240 After the break the final frontier of climate denial. 0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:45.640 Hi, I'm Daniel James. Seven AM tells stories that need 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:48.600 to be told. Our journalism is founded on trust and 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:53.640 independence and now we're increasing our coverage. Every Saturday until 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:56.360 the election, will bring you an extra episode to break 0:07:56.400 --> 0:07:59.040 down the biggest political moments of the week. If you 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:01.480 enjoy seven Am, the best way you can support us 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:05.160 is by making a contribution at seven am podcast dot 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:09.640 com dot slash support. Thanks for listening and supporting our work. 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:14.520 So Tim, can we just take a step back into 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:16.600 the past for a moment. For a long time in 0:08:16.640 --> 0:08:19.880 Australia we were stuck in the so called climate wars, 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:22.080 and you were in the midst of them. You were 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:24.200 heading the Climate Commission. Can you tell me a bit 0:08:24.240 --> 0:08:27.920 about what it was like when your job became politicized. 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:31.960 Well, look, as Climate Commissioner, my job was to report 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:34.920 to the government, but reach out into the Australian community 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:38.800 and just talk to people about the issue of climate change. 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:41.679 So I must have met I know twenty thousand Australians 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:44.880 face to face over that time with other Climate commissioners, 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:48.200 from the coal fields of Queensland through to the inner 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:51.760 city town halls of Melbourne and Sydney, and it was 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:55.679 a great experience. I really really enjoyed doing it. I 0:08:55.760 --> 0:08:59.960 came away with my faith, really reaffirmed that Australians are 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:05.520 generous people. They're willing to listen, their reasonable people. Are 0:09:05.520 --> 0:09:08.760 there people who believe in a fair go. But at 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:10.840 the end of that process, you know, we were sacked 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:12.440 by the Abbott government. 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:16.559 Tony Abbott has sacked a former Australian of the Year 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:19.280 from his government posting, and the Coalition has made it 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:22.240 clear that more public service jobs will go. I'm just 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:25.600 not going to get into the whys and wherefors of 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:31.480 individual decisions. We respect the integrity of senior members of 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:32.480 the public service. 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:36.559 Rupert Murdoch took to Twitter to express his delight at 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:40.719 the sackings. Great first day by PM Abbot firing top bureaucrats, 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:43.760 merging departments, and killing carbon tax. 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:48.520 He said, I was very fortunate to be working with 0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:52.000 a young lady called Amanda Mackenzie who was working as 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:54.640 our publicist, and when we heard we were going to 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:57.200 be sacked, she said, well, why should you accept that? 0:09:57.720 --> 0:10:00.440 She said, this thing called crowdfunding. You know again, I 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:02.800 didn't know about ground funding, so why don't we give 0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:04.679 it a go, see if we can crowdfund ourselves back 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:05.400 into existence? 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:07.880 And we did and that led to the start of 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:08.840 the Climate Council. 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:09.400 Was that right? 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:12.280 Indeed? That's right? So you know what I learned from 0:10:12.280 --> 0:10:16.640 that is never say die, you know, never accept things 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:20.880 which are unreasonable or unjust find a way to fight back. 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:23.760 And today I think we probably hire ten times as 0:10:23.760 --> 0:10:26.360 many people as were hired by the Commission, and we're 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:27.640 doing a very effective job. 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:30.720 Yeah, we had a decade or so of public debate 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:34.360 that really questioned the science of climate change. Can you 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:39.400 talk to me about how climate denial has changed over 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:42.800 the years and what it looks like now in twenty 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:43.400 twenty five. 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:46.200 Sure, look, I think you know. Back when I was 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:51.160 Climate Commissioner, Tony Abbott and others announced that the carbon 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:53.360 tax was going to be horrific, that a leg of 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:54.960 land was going to cost one hundred dollars. 0:10:55.360 --> 0:10:58.920 Everyone's prices are going to go up and up and up, 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:01.280 because that's the name nature of a carbon tax. 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:03.880 It will hear people have to look back and see 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:05.079 those lies for what they are. 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:07.719 But do you accept some of the coalition's claims have 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:11.400 been exaggerations. Roasts aren't going to cost one hundred dollars, 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:11.840 are they? 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:15.880 But they are going to be significantly more expensive. And 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:18.479 that's the point. Everything will be more expensive. 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:21.360 But it was very difficult because people were willing to 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:25.960 lie so profligately and there seem to be no way 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:30.080 to be heard really, so it was extremely frustrating. It 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:32.800 was not unusual to meet people who would just flat 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:36.080 out deny that climate change is happening, and you don't 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:39.439 see much of that anymore. Even in regional Australia. People 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:43.280 acknowledge that the climate is changing. They still some of 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:46.280 them debate about why, and some say, oh, there's other 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:50.600 factors involved. It's not climate change, but even they are decreasing. 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:53.439 The number of voices that you hear that from is decreasing. 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:57.120 There's a few who'll say, oh, it's too expensive, and 0:11:57.160 --> 0:11:59.560 that's the lie that we hear at the moment, that 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:01.680 it's going to be too expensive and therefore we better 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:04.520 fall back on good old gas and coal or nuclear, 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:07.520 so that they're the last set of lies that we're 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:10.320 dealing with now. There's nowhere else for the climate skeptics 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:14.080 to retreat to after that point. So my view is 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:17.720 we just keep pushing on proving them wrong. We've tested 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:20.079 some of those ideas, we've found them to be lies, 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:23.440 and we can see clearly the way forward now, which 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:25.439 is just more wind and solar and batteries. 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:28.400 Tim, thank you so much for your time. 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:30.280 It's a pleasure. Thank you. 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:46.040 Also in the news today, first home buyers of newly 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:48.719 built homes would be able to claim mortgage payments as 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:52.640 a tax deduction under a coalition government. Peter Dutton announced 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:55.400 the plan at a campaign launch in Western Sydney yesterday. 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:57.960 The scheme would be means tested at incomes of one 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:00.760 hundred and seventy five thousand for singles and two hundred 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:03.600 and fifty thousand for couples. It would be limited to 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:06.079 five years and the first six hundred and fifty thousand 0:13:06.120 --> 0:13:09.480 dollars of mortgage. The Coalition estimates that a family on 0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:12.000 an average income would be about eleven thousand dollars a 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:16.280 year better off. And Prime Minister Anthony Alberizi has unveiled 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:18.640 a plan to allow people buying their first home to 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:21.800 do so with a deposit of five percent. The federal 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:24.960 government would also put ten billion towards building one hundred 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:29.600 thousand homes exclusively for first home buyers. Housing Minister Clara 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:32.840 O'Neills said the measure would stop property investors from competing 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:35.920 against young people trying to buy their first home. I'm 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:38.400 Ruby Jones. This is seven am. Thanks for listening.