WEBVTT - Gangs, Grief, Heroin & Hope - Tim Haigh - 906 0:00:01.680 --> 0:00:07.400 She said, it's now never I got fighting in my blood. 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:12.479 I'm tiff. This is Roll with the Punches and we're 0:00:12.520 --> 0:00:17.119 turning life's hardest hits into wins. Nobody wants to go 0:00:17.200 --> 0:00:21.120 to court, and don't. My friends are test Art Family Lawyers. 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:25.160 Know that they offer all forms of alternative dispute resolution. 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:29.240 Their team of Melbourne family lawyers have extensive experience in 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:32.960 all areas of family law to facto and same sex couples, 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:37.280 custody and children, family violence and intervention orders, property settlements 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:41.680 and financial agreements. Test Art is in your corner, so 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:45.440 reach out to Mark and the team at www dot 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:53.519 test Artfamilylawyers dot com dot au. Tim Hague, welcome to 0:00:53.640 --> 0:00:54.720 Roll with the Punches. 0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:59.520 Good morning, Good morning from a cloudy and overcast you. 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:02.640 Gere at six am in the morning for you top 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:06.760 of the morning, could you bounce out of four this 0:01:06.840 --> 0:01:08.800 morning to you? Got to work out in first. 0:01:09.720 --> 0:01:16.520 No by thirty, peeled myself out of bed and made 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:20.920 a very large cup of highly caffeinated coffee to start 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:21.319 my deer. 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:24.479 Well, it's an absolute pleasure to connect to you. It's 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:27.959 pleasure to speak with you. I've dug deep into the 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:30.880 interweb and I've found you across the globe and dragged 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:34.399 you into a conversation and I couldn't be more appreciative 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:37.399 that you've said yes and got yourself here and out 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:38.880 of bed and caffeinated for it. 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:40.600 You're welcome. 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:44.240 Do you want to give both myself and my listeners 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:46.800 a bit of a bit of an intro to who 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:47.480 is Tim Haig? 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:53.440 Tim is now fifty three, married to my wife Donor. 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:56.880 The kids call it Duna, that little pet name that 0:01:56.920 --> 0:02:01.200 the kids have for her kids I say, eight teenager kids. 0:02:01.280 --> 0:02:07.840 And we are currently building this not just a platform online, 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:12.200 but a platform and a foundation in the education system 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:18.480 to give people with lived experience, firstly a voice, give 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:23.360 them their voice back, but also to educate and empower 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:28.839 young people to not make some choices that we did 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:32.600 because the quite painful consequences that can that can occur 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:38.440 from same choices, and just to again use our lived 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:44.440 experience to change and alter the course of a generation 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:50.440 of young people across the globe, to yeah, not make 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:53.760 the same choices that we made, but to make the 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:58.560 right choices for their life so they can succeed. And 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:03.520 hopefully the intention is to create a you know, a 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:07.560 better local communities or society at large, or even a 0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:10.400 global community of empowered young people. 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:13.040 I love that. I love it so much so when 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:18.239 you say lived experience, what comes under that umbrella for myself? 0:03:19.200 --> 0:03:24.919 Grew up in a very impoverished community back in the 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:30.360 nineteen seventies and early eighties. Lived in a government provided 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:34.400 house we call them council houses here, large family. We 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:38.200 lived on benefits. But I grew up in a lot 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:41.520 of poverty. I grew up around a lot of violence. 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:44.280 My dad was quite violent in the hope, very violent 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:48.480 in the home. Violence was the norm in my family heritage, 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:54.240 my dad, my uncle, my granddad, and possibly people before them. 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:59.640 Some people would describe that as a toxic masculine environment, 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:04.040 and to a degree was will possibly come back to that. 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:06.760 But I was still a smart kid, still a very 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:09.320 bright kid, I believe it. And I had a bright 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:15.440 ginger hair style. Yes, yes, very ginger, very big, very bright. 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:18.080 I believe it because of the book color of your eyes. 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:23.120 Oh there you go. I got the hair from my mum. 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:26.880 And yeah, I started high school very bright, you know, 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:32.039 above average sets across the board. For a variety of reasons, 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:35.840 I disengaged with my studies, whether it was a pursuit 0:04:35.920 --> 0:04:39.640 of popularity amongst my peers, or that kind of toxic 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:45.279 masculine mindset was kicking in or manifesting itself. I didn't 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:49.600 like boundaries. I didn't have boundaries at home, you know, 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:52.680 or very few just go out and come back whenever, 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:56.360 you know, kind of mindset at home, very few boundaries. 0:04:56.400 --> 0:04:59.520 So when the teaching staff tried to implement boundaries from 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:02.120 my be fit of my success, I resisted and pushed 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:06.360 against them and wouldn't engage with them. So my downfall 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:10.400 at school was very quick. Failed everything at school in 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:16.960 terms of exams, already built up a comprehensive criminal record. 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:18.640 But I was also a dad at fifteen. 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:23.560 Wow, far right, You squeezed a lot into your first 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:24.320 fifteen years. 0:05:26.200 --> 0:05:30.000 Yeah, that's half the story, but it's enough. Yeah we 0:05:30.360 --> 0:05:34.880 haven't quite got enough time. But that's a pretty good overview. 0:05:35.320 --> 0:05:37.719 Yeah, what were you like as a younger As a 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:41.960 younger kid like that primary school age, were you were 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:44.359 you were handful or were you was it kind of 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:50.600 a shift when you got a bit older and. 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:51.880 No, I was. I'm speaking you know for myself. I 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:57.200 was quite cute. I was always pleasant, I was always courteous, 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:00.360 and that's not just my opinion, that's obviously people that 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:04.800 have met many years later. I'm not quite sure where 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:08.080 the shift came about, how it came around, you know, 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:13.520 that kind of tipping point, shall we call it. You see, 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:16.760 when we grew up in poverty and around violence and 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:21.239 lack and need as kids, as a family, we didn't 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:25.680 realize that what we were experiencing and our home life 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:31.279 wasn't normal. You know, we thought everybody's family lived like 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:34.800 we did. It's only when you get a comparison to 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:40.240 compare your life against the life of somebody else, do 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:43.000 you start to question your own life, your own existence, 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:46.760 your own experiences. And I think that really started when 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:50.839 I was probably ten, last year of primary school before 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:53.680 I went to the high school. So I think that 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:57.000 may have been a part of that awareness rising in me, 0:06:57.760 --> 0:07:02.239 the questions beginning to formulate in my mind and my thinking, 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:07.080 and then resisting or pushing back against the two kind 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:12.240 of you know, the life I was living and the 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:13.600 life that my friends were living. 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:18.040 Yeah, did you did you have an awareness or that they? 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:22.640 I mean, what did that violence look like in the home, 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:25.440 in the family environment, And are you aware of it 0:07:26.000 --> 0:07:27.640 or was it, like you said, just the. 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:32.360 Norm that is between my dad and my mom. More 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:36.200 often you'd hear it, so we'd be upstairs. The house 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:40.240 walls were quite thin, so a lot of the time 0:07:40.280 --> 0:07:43.840 you'd hear it and then see the effects of it 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:47.400 the next morning. Obviously in my mom, I mean sometimes 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:50.320 she'd give as good as she got, but there was 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:52.840 those occasions were quite rare. But it was very violent 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:56.280 towards kids, all of us, well, certainly the older ones anyway, 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:01.200 So obviously we experienced that side. And it wasn't just 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:05.080 a click around the ear, you know, it was very aggressive, 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:11.480 very violent, you know, probably go to jail stuff round. 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:14.920 And what was that lack for you? 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:15.240 Were you? 0:08:15.360 --> 0:08:18.000 Were you scared of that? Did you push back against that? 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:20.640 Did you did you become a version of that? Were 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:21.640 you ashamed of that? 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:26.240 I mean we lived in fear of my dad, yeah, 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:28.920 you know, definitely lived in fear of him in and 0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:32.400 around the house. But it was a mixed emotion because 0:08:33.559 --> 0:08:35.360 you know, you live in fear of this person, but 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:38.240 it was my dad and I loved him. He got 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:41.720 the job. He's the only dad I had. So you know, 0:08:41.760 --> 0:08:45.560 you've got this dual kind of emotion, this this kind 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:50.959 of negative and positive thing going on. And then now 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:53.679 and again he'd do something, you know, we'd go off 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:55.640 for the day and make a den or something, you know, 0:08:55.679 --> 0:08:58.760 and he take the techn the knives or the tools 0:08:58.800 --> 0:09:00.960 with him to cut down trees and stuff, you know, 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:03.599 and you just have an amazing day and all the 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:07.080 negative memories would fade away because you know, my dad 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:09.360 is now my hero because he's made a day or 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:11.600 is you know, we've had full or whatever. And then 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:13.840 they'd be back to his normal self today after that 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:17.719 for many weeks or months, So yeah, it was. It 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:21.760 was a little bit confusing at times, but definitely painful. 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:27.840 But then again using strength as sorry, using aggression as 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:30.199 a form of strength, which is kind of one of 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:33.320 the pillars of toxic masculinity. Not pillars, you know, one 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:38.880 of the facets of it that then started to filter 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:43.760 through my life. You know, that aggression towards it was 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:50.000 towards other men on my part, you know, seeing or 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:54.680 hearing or experiencing the domestic balance in the home between 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:57.000 my dad and my mum actually shifted something in me 0:09:57.840 --> 0:10:00.920 that I would never be physical called towards a woman 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:08.080 but I would use aggression verbally to anybody, you know, 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:11.560 you know, just displaying that anger, displaying that aggression to 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:14.880 try and get what I wanted in life, and that 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:20.880 again filtered through my relationships and my activities in high school. 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:26.920 Yeah, and when did you start, so I know you 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:32.160 have you had quite the running with gangs, drugs, prison. 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:37.000 When did all of that started start to become I 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:39.440 guess your social surrounding. 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:46.440 Probably eleven or twelve. Again, not many boundaries at home. 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:51.520 There was always other children, siblings, younger siblings, so we 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:56.680 were kind of left to our own devices. We would, yeah, 0:10:57.040 --> 0:11:00.400 go out of the house and the mantra would be 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:03.120 come back home when the street lights come on, you know, 0:11:03.200 --> 0:11:05.320 so when the street lights around the community would come on. 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:08.679 But it was difficult when we were playing in an 0:11:08.679 --> 0:11:11.959 old issused coal mine where there were no street lights, 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:14.600 so often we'd come home late and get a kicking 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:19.440 for it. But yeah, kind of eleven twelve, but it 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:22.040 started with different gangs. But I was always looking for 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:25.520 a sense of belonging, always looking for an identity, which 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:32.240 is quite often the inner focus of a person that 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:36.920 has very little identity. At home, my dad was at 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:40.400 home but he was. He was a present dad, but 0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:44.880 he was an absent father. My dad was present, but 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:47.840 he was an absent father. There's a big difference between 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:51.560 a dad and a father, huge different. So I looked 0:11:51.559 --> 0:11:54.079 for that identity in gangs. But it took on the 0:11:54.120 --> 0:12:00.200 form of different gangs over my high school years. But 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:02.640 it just all kind of tumbled out. Maybe it was 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:06.000 just a young man carrying a lot of hurt. It 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:10.199 all just came tumbling out in you know, in various ways, 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:12.360 but all pretty much negative. 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:18.720 Yeah. Yeah, and prison, left school. 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:25.240 Jumping around with another group of kids, started going to 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:28.839 the football which back in the eighties had a very 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:33.920 aggressive and violent following, and football hooligans didn't get involved 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:35.640 in it too much. But it was the people that 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:39.480 I was jumping around with got in a gang fight. 0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:46.640 And since prison on my seventeenth birthday, to an adult prison. 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:51.200 Oh for how long? What was your first sentence? 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:55.160 Well, in total, I got nine years nine months. Oh wow, 0:12:57.200 --> 0:13:00.760 I ended up doing about three the cost of just 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:06.520 how the sentencing works. But yeah, I kind of freaked 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:08.760 out because I didn't quite know how long a sentence 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:11.439 was because the judge you kept just throwing three years 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:14.120 two years, three years, nine months, six months, six months, 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:17.840 So it sounds more than it actually was, but I 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:20.200 didn't know that at the time. Absolutely. I was actually 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:24.000 quite relieved to get three years, you know, because I 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:26.719 thought it was nine plus. So actually when the said nine, 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:29.960 I was like, oh, great, lovely, thanks, you know, but 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:34.960 actually that was way too long anyway. But yeah, unfortunately 0:13:35.200 --> 0:13:38.600 that was the consequence of my choices. This is the 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:43.880 reality of choices, and not only the prison sentence. You've 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:46.960 got to bear in mind that we'd hurt people and 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:50.160 that's unacceptable. But we didn't think like that back then. 0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:52.240 We didn't know that. Back then, we didn't you know, 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:56.320 comprehend or perceive. We just went round being violence people. 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:00.800 What was it? Can you record what it was like 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:07.040 in the middle of that, being sixteen sixteen, seventeen, sixteen sixteen, 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:11.520 being sixteen and being told and going through the sentencing 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:14.920 process that you are going to be put in jail 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:16.400 now for like you're only sixteen. 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:19.320 So oh sorry, it was my seventeenth birthday. 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:24.120 Sorry, yeah, oh happy to day around. Yeah, what a gift. 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:28.560 But yeah, so at seventeen, you've one year is a 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:31.400 long term. Look, one year is a lifetime at seventeen. 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:34.240 So what was it like being put in jail for 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:37.200 a number of years, of prison for a number of years. 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:41.000 Can you remember what that felt like and what your 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:42.080 perception of that was. 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:44.520 Yeah'll never forget it. I mean, you know, you don't 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:47.360 forget things like that. It's so real, it's so vivid. 0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:51.840 I can remember it. I can remember the first time 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:54.920 going there, you know, the experience. So the jails in 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:58.400 the UK, some of them, they're old Victorian jails and 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:03.320 they were built and design in prominent positions around cities. 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:05.800 You know, basically it's put the fear of God into 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:08.680 the people living in that area that if you're a 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:10.760 bad person, that's where they send you. You know, it 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:14.440 was they were deliberately built around that, that kind of 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:20.200 design and driving up to it. You know, kid seventeen, 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:25.520 you know, handcuffed to a strange person. Police everywhere, you know, 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:28.600 the transport, the police that transported you from court to prison. 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:32.120 And then you get through the gate and you've got 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:34.960 the high walls, the barred windows, You've got the noise, 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:38.280 you you know, the smell, it stinks. You know, it's 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:45.040 a mixture of filth and clinical cleaning products. Yeah, and 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:47.720 then and then you go through the regime of you know, 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:49.760 everybody that goes into prison, you have to take your 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:53.120 close off to to you know, to leave them in property, 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:56.880 so you can take on your prison uniform. But as 0:15:56.920 --> 0:16:00.560 part of that routine, they've got a kid to make 0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:04.360 sure you've not got any concealed drugs or weapons. So 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:09.320 it's basically strip off and bend and squat. I'll leave 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:14.320 the rest of yourself. Yeah, I was seventeen. I've got 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:18.120 strange men and a male doctor, do you know what 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:21.320 I mean? You know, and it's like you having a 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:24.360 laugh with me, like no, stripping, squat, you know, it's 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:28.920 kind of you know, next, next, next, not very nice. 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:30.240 So yeah, I can remember it. 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:33.840 Yeah. What did that do to your identity? Does it? 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:37.360 Like you've got this you're looking for a sense of 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:40.960 belonging from the start, so you're exploring these gangs and 0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:43.800 looking for who you are, trying to find belonging, and 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:47.160 then you're thrown into this prison environment. What does that 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:49.360 do to your identity at seventeen? Like do you bick? 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:51.880 You go, I'm a prisoner now this is my life. 0:16:52.760 --> 0:16:56.680 Did did it change you? Did it make you reflect? 0:16:57.480 --> 0:17:02.840 No? In a very what way. It actually enhanced my 0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:06.520 standing in the gangs. I have now got the badge 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:09.120 of honor. I'm now in prison. I am a criminal. 0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:12.000 Like everybody's going to be talking about me out there, 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:16.640 you know, in a very warped way. It just, yeah, 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:22.560 enhanced my street profile, my street credibility that people will 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:27.160 be talking about me or you know whatever. That went 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:29.680 on for quite a few months until the reality kicked 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:32.720 in and you know, and then you're just getting on 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:35.600 with doing your jail. But I guess because I grew 0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:40.480 up in a very feral type of environment with very 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:43.920 few boundaries and whatever, I just adjusted to my time 0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:46.600 in prison. I adjusted to being in prison. I ad 0:17:46.720 --> 0:17:50.680 just had to living in a cell. I adjusted to. Yeah, 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:55.360 you just adapt, and feral people often do adapt. It's 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:57.639 just another place to lay your head. It's just another 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:01.600 place to do, you think. So, yeah, it was quite 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:05.359 the opposite. Not really much time for reflection. Actually, my 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:09.280 activities got worse in prison. Started taking drugs, carried on fighting, 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:14.480 got into a lot of trouble. Yeah, quite the opposite 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:16.760 to a rehabilitative environment. 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:19.760 What type of drugs were you getting your hands on 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:20.280 in prison? 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:31.159 Cannabis, LSD and cocaine. Hell, do you really want to know? 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:40.439 I mean, some of them come through visits, you know, 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:45.520 people passed them over in visits and the people in 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:53.760 the prison secrete them very without the officers seeing where 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:57.600 they're secreting them. Yeah, we call them. Some officers bring 0:18:57.640 --> 0:19:02.639 them into prison because obviously the value is hugely increased 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:08.720 in prisons nowadays. A lot dropped into prisons by drones. 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:11.439 So the drones fire over and drop them in the 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:14.600 prison yard, or people throw them. Yeah, all this is 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:17.119 well known. I'm not giving you any state secrets or anything, 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:18.679 but yeah, this is kind of how it works. 0:19:19.280 --> 0:19:21.240 You are in my noive little bubble. 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:26.719 Thank thank thankfully you are in that now, you bubble. 0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:30.880 But yeah, so the stuff gets in in many under 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:34.199 many guysers, and it's got its own market. You know. 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:40.160 The prices increased probably fourfold, you know, for the substances. 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:44.119 Yeah, and when you're in prison, how does have it? 0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:46.320 How do you get the money to how does that work? 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:48.760 How do you have the money to be at seventeen 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:51.760 years old to be purchasing drugs? 0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:55.680 You? I mean, you know you can't you get a job, 0:19:56.040 --> 0:19:59.479 so you can't work. You know, in the prison. Now 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:03.400 you don't get physical money, but you get credit, so 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:05.760 you can, you know, if you want to buy something 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:08.480 off someday, they'll give you a shopping list of things 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:11.080 they want. You go and buy the stuff out of 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:13.920 your money and then pass on the you know, pass 0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:18.840 on the shopping list. Or you can get money to 0:20:18.880 --> 0:20:22.399 their you know, from your family to their family outside 0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:27.040 you know who, then tell them that you know, said 0:20:27.080 --> 0:20:30.600 money has arrived, and you know, the transaction can continue 0:20:30.600 --> 0:20:35.959 in inside the prison. Prison Prisoners knock daft. Prisoners are 0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:40.040 not stupid. There's some very very very smart people in jail, 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:44.480 some incredibly smart people, and if they only just shifted 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:51.360 that direction of their life choices, they could succeed legitimately legally. 0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:54.320 There are some very very clever people. 0:20:56.000 --> 0:20:58.600 I am. Yeah. I love that. I've spoken to quite 0:20:58.640 --> 0:21:01.680 a few former prisoners in the past on the show, 0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:07.560 and I you know, the rehabilitative services that we have 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:10.520 and the justice system as a whole gets me quite 0:21:10.560 --> 0:21:13.920 fired up because it's, you know, I see crime, especially 0:21:13.960 --> 0:21:16.440 here where I am at the moment, in our community pages, 0:21:16.480 --> 0:21:18.640 there's a lot of youth crime happening in this particular 0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:23.160 state I live in. Kids are kids are committing adult crimes, 0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:26.960 and then nothing's happening because they if they get taken 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:29.160 in by the police, they get out on bail straight 0:21:29.200 --> 0:21:32.280 away like nothing. It's just getting a bit crazy, and 0:21:32.320 --> 0:21:35.000 so people are starting I see people in fear of 0:21:35.040 --> 0:21:38.399 these of this stuff that's happening with these youths. But 0:21:38.480 --> 0:21:43.960 then I'm also I'm not on board with the jail 0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:47.040 the process of putting people in jail, and we fail 0:21:47.160 --> 0:21:51.080 to rehabilitate properly. We're not rehabilitating people. We're punishing punished people. 0:21:51.080 --> 0:21:54.160 We're taking hurt people and we put them in them 0:21:54.200 --> 0:21:59.840 in a shitty, toxic system that actually doesn't it doesn't 0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:03.400 help them do whatever you've done, which we will talk 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:05.920 about to really those I hate to change their laugh 0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:08.879 direction and make something of themselves. And I find that 0:22:08.960 --> 0:22:13.359 so frustrating and hard, and I have seen it from 0:22:13.400 --> 0:22:14.160 the inside. 0:22:14.920 --> 0:22:17.680 Yeah, I mean, it's funding. It's clearly money, government money. 0:22:18.200 --> 0:22:23.359 It's financing the prison system, it's financing the services within 0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:27.560 the prison system. You know, I'm not a liberal that 0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:29.760 says we don't put them in jail. You know, some 0:22:29.800 --> 0:22:33.760 people need to go in jail. Society does have the 0:22:33.840 --> 0:22:37.200 right to be separated from people that can make criminal cs. 0:22:38.160 --> 0:22:41.520 So you know, I'm not like, don't send them to jail. 0:22:41.600 --> 0:22:44.919 If there's legitimate reasons, then absolutely, But when they are 0:22:45.040 --> 0:22:47.639 in jail, that's when we need to help them. You know, 0:22:47.800 --> 0:22:52.119 they're in a static position. They're not going anywhere. You know, 0:22:52.600 --> 0:22:56.439 they're in a position where they can apply themselves in 0:22:56.520 --> 0:22:59.960 terms of reflection, self awareness, getting help, or just trying 0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:03.640 to lay a foundation when they get out they can 0:23:03.720 --> 0:23:06.840 then build a new life upon. But there's no opportunity 0:23:06.880 --> 0:23:08.919 to build a foundation in the prison system, not in 0:23:08.960 --> 0:23:10.800 the UK anyway. M hm. 0:23:12.119 --> 0:23:14.760 So when you went into prison, was it just one 0:23:14.840 --> 0:23:17.000 stint in prison or did you Did you go in 0:23:17.040 --> 0:23:18.320 and out for a period of time. 0:23:18.560 --> 0:23:22.400 No, I did one, and then I managed to avoid 0:23:22.680 --> 0:23:27.320 going back through a variety of reasons, which is we 0:23:27.600 --> 0:23:31.200 don't have time for that. But yeah, I only went 0:23:31.280 --> 0:23:33.080 the ones. But when I got out of jail, I 0:23:33.119 --> 0:23:36.879 got even worse than you know what I'd been before 0:23:36.880 --> 0:23:37.560 I was in jail. 0:23:38.000 --> 0:23:40.120 Yeah, what was the sense of getting released? 0:23:43.040 --> 0:23:46.720 Quite euphoric. You know, I'm happy to get home, happy 0:23:46.760 --> 0:23:50.960 to get back with my family. But yeah, the downwards 0:23:50.960 --> 0:23:56.000 spiral continued from there. You know, prisons are full of criminals, surprise, surprise. 0:23:57.119 --> 0:24:00.360 So you get phone numbers, you get connections, you learn, 0:24:00.720 --> 0:24:03.439 you know, it's a university of crime, so you know, 0:24:03.480 --> 0:24:07.240 you come out with a degree, you know in burdling techniques, 0:24:07.560 --> 0:24:11.520 stealing techniques, drug techniques, selling drugs, you know, criminal behavior. 0:24:12.800 --> 0:24:18.000 And I just delved into that world myself personally. Wow. 0:24:18.760 --> 0:24:22.160 Wow, And what direct what was your immediate direction? What 0:24:22.280 --> 0:24:23.560 was Did you have a plan? 0:24:25.720 --> 0:24:29.679 Yeah, by drugs and start selling them. Wow, that was 0:24:29.720 --> 0:24:38.160 my plan. Yeah, easy money, you know, quick, easy money. Yeah. 0:24:38.200 --> 0:24:40.480 It was a bit of a weird one because not weird, 0:24:40.520 --> 0:24:42.520 it was a bit of a strange one because there 0:24:42.560 --> 0:24:46.119 was a massive shift in social culture. So when I 0:24:46.160 --> 0:24:49.000 went to when I went to jail, there was a 0:24:49.000 --> 0:24:52.480 lot of violence, a lot of hooliganism around football, a 0:24:52.560 --> 0:24:57.240 lot of gangs. That was the that was the social 0:24:57.280 --> 0:24:59.879 norm that I grew up in. And then when I 0:25:00.080 --> 0:25:03.080 out of prison, all that had stopped and the rave 0:25:03.160 --> 0:25:07.639 scene was kicking in. So everybody was taking you know, MDMA, 0:25:07.760 --> 0:25:12.800 ecstasy and amphetamine and LSD. So the people that you know, 0:25:13.000 --> 0:25:15.440 a few short years ago that we used to fight against, 0:25:15.800 --> 0:25:18.800 we were all now going to clubs and dancing around 0:25:18.840 --> 0:25:20.679 telling each other we love them because we were off 0:25:20.720 --> 0:25:24.760 our head on drugs. Yeah, and this thing happened, this shift, 0:25:24.840 --> 0:25:29.080 this cultural shift. Actually it only took I don't know, 0:25:29.119 --> 0:25:34.840 two three years, four years, major shift socially among young people. 0:25:36.080 --> 0:25:39.560 So yeah, the fighting stopped and the drug taking started. 0:25:41.240 --> 0:25:43.560