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Speaker 1: Dad, push the doors closed, got them locked so no

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Speaker 1: one could get out, and he's turned around and yelled out,

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Speaker 1: no one is leaving this tab until I get my

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Speaker 1: wallet back. Now there's one hundred men who turned and

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Speaker 1: looked at us, and there was just complete silence. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't long after that, or probably a couple of years

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Speaker 1: after that, that he was featured on Australia's Most Wanted.

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Speaker 1: Oh that would help, So he was in the probably

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Speaker 1: the most wanted list.

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Speaker 2: I'm Andrew Rule. This is Life and Crimes, and today

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Speaker 2: we welcome to the studio Peter Norris. And Peter Norris

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Speaker 2: has written a book which is very eye catching. It's

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Speaker 2: called The Bank Robbers Boy. It has a very striking

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Speaker 2: image on the cover, better than many covers. Peter designed

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Speaker 2: it himself. It's a photograph of himself, just a rough

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Speaker 2: little snapshot of himself as a I presume it's himself

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Speaker 2: as a little boy of maybe two, and he's looking

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Speaker 2: at the camera carefully, perhaps watchfully, and it is a

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Speaker 2: perfect image for the subject. And the subject really is

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Speaker 2: the memoir of that little lost boy who grew up

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Speaker 2: knowing that his father was one of the biggest and

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Speaker 2: toughest bank robbers in Australia in the golden era of

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Speaker 2: bank robbery in this country? Is that a fair summary, Painter.

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Speaker 1: That's a fair summary, Andrew, Yeah, yeah, And as you say,

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Speaker 1: I did design the cover myself and carefully chose that photo.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's not one, not a moment that I remember.

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Speaker 1: Too young to recall obviously, But.

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Speaker 2: How did you come to still have that photograph after

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Speaker 2: all your disjointed life which we're going to talk about.

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Speaker 2: You've been moved from pillar to post until you've turned

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Speaker 2: maybe eighteen or something, and a lot of stuff would

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Speaker 2: have got lost along the way, but you kept that photograph.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I've managed to keep a couple of photo albums

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Speaker 1: and somehow, you know, as you go through my story,

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Speaker 1: there's lots of moments where I'm able to grab a

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Speaker 1: backpack and fill it with whatever I.

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Speaker 3: Could, and you grab the albums and it was always albums,

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Speaker 3: always photo along with a Tom the turtlemost Eddy Bear, yes,

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Speaker 3: and maybe one set of clothes, but that was it.

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Speaker 2: So Teddy Bear and your family albums, Well, that's said

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Speaker 2: something for your character.

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Speaker 1: They've been with me for life.

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Speaker 2: For life, isn't it isn't that beautiful. It's a touching

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Speaker 2: story in many ways, simply told effective, no pretension. You're

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Speaker 2: not one of those guys that licks the pencil stub

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Speaker 2: and looks for long words.

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Speaker 1: You just tell it how it was.

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Speaker 2: And I found it quite moving, actually, and I was

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Speaker 2: reading it. I was saying a few minutes ago before

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Speaker 2: we started that I was reading this on the train

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Speaker 2: and I found it. I was worried that I'd miss

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Speaker 2: my next stop, you know, because I was getting involved

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Speaker 2: in it what happened next and soon, because there was

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Speaker 2: always something happening in your young life life, and it

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Speaker 2: was from crisis to crisis, and it's very compelling. Did

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Speaker 2: you find that aspect when you were writing it that

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Speaker 2: it brought back the way it felt to be that

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Speaker 2: little boy? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I did, and look and one thing that I suppose

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Speaker 1: that I really wanted to get out of this was

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Speaker 1: to be authentic. And as you say, so if I

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Speaker 1: felt a certain way at the time, I didn't need

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Speaker 1: to use fancy words or look up at thesaurus to

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Speaker 1: make it sound a little bit more fancy than it

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Speaker 1: was exactly. I just just wrote it the way I

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Speaker 1: felt at the.

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Speaker 2: Time, and it's highly effective and We met at a

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Speaker 2: writer sesstel recently and never set eyes on each other before,

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Speaker 2: and you said I'd like to read a piece, and

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Speaker 2: you read a few paragress from the book, and I

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Speaker 2: found it enormously moving. I thought it was very well

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Speaker 2: chosen and very effective, and that we may get to

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Speaker 2: that bit today. It was the day that your dad said,

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Speaker 2: we're heading west. Like you went to a lot of

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Speaker 2: places with your dad at very short notice. Two minutes,

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Speaker 2: three minutes, five minutes.

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Speaker 1: They're always a short note.

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Speaker 2: And as you said at the time, you got a

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Speaker 2: car meaning dad pinch one and you drove from I

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Speaker 2: think it was I think it was from Melbourne to Perth.

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Speaker 2: I was across another and you had a sort of

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Speaker 2: a scene with your father on the way and I

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Speaker 2: thought the really said a lot for your character, and

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Speaker 2: also you're writing that you were able to capture that

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Speaker 2: a moment of wisdom. Yeah, it's skilled from the whole

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Speaker 2: violent loss and everything else that you Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's a small part of the small part of the

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Speaker 1: book obviously, but such an integral part of the story

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Speaker 1: because it highlights my love for my father, but also

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Speaker 1: the fact I didn't want to become him.

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Speaker 2: You didn't want to be him here. Yeah, it's a

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Speaker 2: funny split thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, really tough.

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Speaker 2: You love your father or your mother, but you don't

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Speaker 2: want to be them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and as a kid, a tough time to negotiate too,

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Speaker 1: and confusing feelings and terrible yeah, awful.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you feel that for people who have got this,

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Speaker 2: you know, built into humans, is this loyalty to your

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Speaker 2: own and to think that you've got to somehow negotiate

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Speaker 2: that when you know one member of the family's been

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Speaker 2: dragged off to jail and the other one's dragged off

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Speaker 2: to the boys home, and the girls are dragged off

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Speaker 2: to god knows where.

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Speaker 1: It's very confronting, confronting, and imagine it must be the

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Speaker 1: same for you know, as you probably found through your

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Speaker 1: research and writing, being married to a criminal would almost

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Speaker 1: be the same. And I imagine this totally. I love them,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, you know, but I don't.

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Speaker 2: And then finally, which leads us to one.

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Speaker 1: Of the big psychological.

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Speaker 2: Things in your book, I imagine, I think, and tell

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Speaker 2: me if I'm wrong, is the fact that ultimately your mother,

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Speaker 2: the woman who gave birth to you and to your siblings,

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Speaker 2: on one day, she just left, which happened so long

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Speaker 2: ago that I doubt you can actually remember.

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Speaker 1: It, literally, don't remember it.

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Speaker 2: You were the baby of the family.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, your older siblings would remember her a little bit. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So I've got three older siblings, two or two sisters

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Speaker 1: and a brother.

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Speaker 2: And they're still with us.

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Speaker 1: They're still with us. Yeah, my older brother and my

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Speaker 1: older sister. So, older brother Dave, older sister Tina, they

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Speaker 1: both remember her, they do, yep, yep. So you know,

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Speaker 1: a lot of the memories in the early chapters, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm relying on, particularly on my brother. Yeah, Mum's departure

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Speaker 1: is all. He's all Dave's memories.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so take us to that. You've rebuilt this

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Speaker 2: through your brother's eyes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Well, you know, I was born in nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy three. It's not long after that, from eighteen months

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Speaker 1: a toddler kind of just you know, walking getting around

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Speaker 1: and without knowing. My brother Dave, he's pretty much my father.

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Speaker 1: He's this charming, great guy to sit in a beer with. Again,

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Speaker 1: I probably wouldn't want to be him. It's different, but

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Speaker 1: a great guy who you know, he has friends that

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Speaker 1: are high court judges and criminals and everything. In between

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Speaker 1: these these they're just just amazing individuals have the ability

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Speaker 1: to befriend everybody. So we had some great conversations and

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Speaker 1: he recalled the day that mum told told him and

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Speaker 1: cuddled all of her kids and had a shopping bag

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Speaker 1: and was going shopping for the day and quarter bus

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Speaker 1: and she went and away she went.

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Speaker 2: This is outside the town of in New South Wales.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah's this. I think this was in Kellyville,

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Speaker 1: I believe in a Sydney.

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Speaker 2: Suburb, Sydney suburb. So she just and that was it.

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Speaker 2: So she plotted her exit in the previous hours or days,

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Speaker 2: days and months, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: With full knowledge of her parents, who you know, my

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Speaker 1: grandmother and go Pa, you know, they would have known

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Speaker 1: that the time that that day she was she was heading,

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Speaker 1: she was heading. And yeah, so we have not heard

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Speaker 1: from her or seen her since at all. Nothing.

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Speaker 2: That is fifty years it happened in seventy five, right, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, fifty years ago. Yeah. So I even't found a

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Speaker 1: fourth birthday card recently actually, so in one of the

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Speaker 1: albums I had with these things that I grabbed which

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Speaker 1: is from her, but it's in my dad's handwriting. Oh

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Speaker 1: so Dad, Dad, had given it to me at the

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Speaker 1: time to.

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Speaker 2: Say this is from mom, to say this is from mom. Oh, well,

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Speaker 2: let see, I've still got that. Yeah, it was thoughtful. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's another theory to that though. What's that?

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Speaker 2: Oh I see, it could be very sinister, It could

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Speaker 2: be very Yeah, that's the point too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay.

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Speaker 2: So which leads us to a question which I raised

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Speaker 2: with you when we first met, and I think I

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Speaker 2: didn't raise it, and it certainly occurred to me. If

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Speaker 2: you were able to your mother through using people who

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Speaker 2: are good at finding people, would you want to do

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Speaker 2: that or would you not want to know the truth.

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Speaker 1: No, I would absolutely want to know that. And you know,

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Speaker 1: the way that I even finished my story, part of

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Speaker 1: that is just letting Mum know that I forgive her

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Speaker 1: for those decisions. The decision to walk away from four

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Speaker 1: children would be a tough one, terrible and yeah one

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Speaker 1: that you know, no doubt, if she's still alive, would

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Speaker 1: still be with her. But I'm also aware that had

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Speaker 1: she taken the four of us, Dad would never stopped looking.

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Speaker 2: Oh I see, yeah, and that would be bring its

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Speaker 2: own problems.

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Speaker 1: That would bring its own problems.

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Speaker 2: I suppose we owe it to our listeners to sketch

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Speaker 2: in a sort of a thumbnail sketch of your father's

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Speaker 2: career as a bank robber and other things. Okay, who

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Speaker 2: was your dad and where'd you start out? As suppose

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Speaker 2: you know what happened next?

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Speaker 1: Now I know, certainly before my time and before kids.

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Speaker 1: You know that he spent a fair at a time

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Speaker 1: in Tamworth Boys Home and a lot of our more

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Speaker 1: notorious criminals there and Grafton, Grafton Jail, So it's probably

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Speaker 1: Grafting where he met some of the more notorious criminals

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Speaker 1: such as George Freeman and those guys. And he knew

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Speaker 1: Russell Cox, Russell Cox Russell, Yeah, mad Dog Cox.

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Speaker 2: There were some big um robbers at that era that

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Speaker 2: came to Sticky End. Yeah, that's reading Raymond.

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Speaker 1: Raymond n Yeah. And there's still a guy that I

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Speaker 1: refer to it in the book and I still don't

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Speaker 1: know who it is because it's again it's my brother's

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Speaker 1: memories and just a guy called Wombat, who we called Wombat.

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Speaker 1: And we were just watching the news one day because

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Speaker 1: we'd seen met this wom bat at our house. He's

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Speaker 1: there regularly. And then the news came on and showed

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Speaker 1: a man who'd been pulled up at a traffic light

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Speaker 1: and been shot in the head, and that was that

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Speaker 1: was one Bat saw. Yeah, sure who he was, though

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Speaker 1: you must find that we need to know who Wane

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Speaker 1: Bat was.

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Speaker 2: What do you think happened there? There'd be a falling

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Speaker 2: out between friends.

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Speaker 1: It'd be a falling out between you.

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Speaker 2: You don't get shot in the head of the traffic.

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Speaker 1: Light by that's by a lollipop. No, clearly a hit.

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Speaker 1: And you know there's those that stuff going on at

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Speaker 1: the time.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so you might have something falling out of it. Yeah, ye,

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Speaker 2: suspected of informing, Yeah, cheating somebody out of money or.

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Speaker 1: Something like that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I tend to find that most of the criminals of

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Speaker 1: that era, although they're criminals and clearly dishonest, I found

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Speaker 1: they had their own code. Though I certainly no listening

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Speaker 1: to Dad that he was always fair and would never

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Speaker 1: robel cheat another criminal. That was his kind of That

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Speaker 1: was the discussions that we used to have.

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Speaker 2: If you were whacking up the bank robbery money, you weren't.

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Speaker 2: You weren't dealing it from the bottom.

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Speaker 1: You just you just be fair and honest. But anyway

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Speaker 1: that doesn't mean they're all the same, I suppose.

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Speaker 2: I guess not interesting, isn't it that sort of basically

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Speaker 2: sociopathic crooks can have a code that they.

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Speaker 1: Still Yeah, yeah, they had their own code.

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Speaker 2: I was very impressed to give our listeners and readers,

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Speaker 2: your readers, some impression of your father's charisma and strength

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Speaker 2: of character and his sheer presence. Let's say there's a

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Speaker 2: story you described and it's in a tab. Clearly, like

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Speaker 2: so many other citizens, your dad spent a lot of

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Speaker 2: time punting, and that was probably the root cause of

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Speaker 2: most of his troubles. And you know, the money comes

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Speaker 2: in and the money goes out, Well, we know where

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Speaker 2: it's going. He wasn't buying Jaguar cars. He was backing

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Speaker 2: horses and dogs.

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Speaker 1: That yeah, And we're punging from a from Thursday night

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Speaker 1: till Sunday.

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Speaker 2: That was it. His wallet goes missing in this crowded tab.

250
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Speaker 2: He steps out and grabs some piece of wood from

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Speaker 2: somewhere and somehow gams the double doors so they won't

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Speaker 2: open from the inside. Yeah, and then he bails up

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Speaker 2: everybody in that room. Now, they might have been one

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Speaker 2: hundred people, They might have went.

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Speaker 1: Fifteen there was a day that I recall, Dad had

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Speaker 1: placed his newspaper down on a bench and if you know,

257
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Speaker 1: for those that are old enough to remember, the old

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Speaker 1: tab's there. You know, they smoke field back in the

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Speaker 1: day when you could smoke inside the building, and there's

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Speaker 1: just races blaring, and there's generally only males in there,

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Speaker 1: and you know, one hundred blokes just all running around

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Speaker 1: putting their bets on.

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Speaker 2: Yep, and yeah.

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Speaker 1: So he'd left his wallet on one of the benches,

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Speaker 1: placed a bet, and then gone to his pocket to

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Speaker 1: grab his wallet and realized that, you know, it wasn't there,

267
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Speaker 1: gone back to the last place that he was and

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Speaker 1: the wallet wasn't there either, And I remember just looking

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Speaker 1: at him, and his face used to kind of go red,

270
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Speaker 1: and these veins would pop out in his neck, and

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Speaker 1: I just had my little arm. I would have been

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Speaker 1: about seven at the time. I reckon, just had my

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Speaker 1: arm wrapped around his leg. And then he started walking

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Speaker 1: towards the front door. Thank god, you know, we're just

275
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Speaker 1: going to leave, because I knew what he was capable of.

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Speaker 1: And then we got to the door. Instead of walking out,

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Speaker 1: he's pushed the doors closed, got them locked. So no

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Speaker 1: one could get out, and he's turned around and yelled out,

279
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Speaker 1: no one is leaving this tab until I get my

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Speaker 1: wallet back. And there's one hundred men who turned and

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Speaker 1: looked at us, and there was just complete silence. And

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Speaker 1: of course, as a seven year old fairly daunting, fair

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Speaker 1: if you were, I got no doubt that he would

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Speaker 1: have at least intended to work his way through each

285
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:42,920
Speaker 1: of each and every one of them. And there was

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Speaker 1: a man at the back of the room who put

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Speaker 1: his hand up and said, I just found this. Is

288
00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,480
Speaker 1: this your wallet? And he pushed his way through the

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Speaker 1: hundred men to get to the back and snatched the

290
00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:58,560
Speaker 1: wallet and look through it, nothing missing, and then that

291
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Speaker 1: was carry on. Opened the door, opened the door, and

292
00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:04,360
Speaker 1: off we went, if we went. So that tells you

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Speaker 1: a lot about your father, that story, doesn't it. He's

294
00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:10,000
Speaker 1: a punter, a victim of the punt really, yeah, absolutely, and.

295
00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:14,400
Speaker 2: Probably committed crimes to square up betting debts. Probably, yeah.

296
00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:17,680
Speaker 1: I had Yeah, lots of our, lots of their parties

297
00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:21,040
Speaker 1: and contacts. There was always bookmakers present, so I'm sure

298
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Speaker 1: there was credit given, as you know, it was required

299
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Speaker 1: and all those sort of.

300
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Speaker 2: Things, and they'd have to then have to square off.

301
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Speaker 2: And of course they always pay their bookie, always pay

302
00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,720
Speaker 2: book always pay the book The thing is big on

303
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Speaker 2: bookies and and most bookies always pay their debts too.

304
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Speaker 1: Notwithstanding that, I think they robbed it for your bookies

305
00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,920
Speaker 1: too after some big race mates too. That was that

306
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:45,840
Speaker 1: was the thing back in the.

307
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Speaker 2: Day Lloyd Tidmarsh ended up dead, was That's right been

308
00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:52,760
Speaker 2: Jockie Smith and Jockie Smith would have been a contemporary

309
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,160
Speaker 2: of your fathers. They would have known it, They would

310
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Speaker 2: have known each other, Yeah, for sure, from the same

311
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Speaker 2: sort of blood. Really very famous escapeian.

312
00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:09,359
Speaker 1: Famous for his for his escapes. Yeah, yes, capologists.

313
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Speaker 2: But it also shows that the victim of the pump,

314
00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:18,160
Speaker 2: but also enormously confident, tough bloke who who'd come through

315
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Speaker 2: baptism of fire in the boys' homes and that made

316
00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,080
Speaker 2: him the toughest bloke in the most surroundings. Yeah, he

317
00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:28,600
Speaker 2: wasn't actually in a high security jail. He was tougher

318
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Speaker 2: than the most paper And.

319
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Speaker 1: There was something about I think crims of that day

320
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Speaker 1: that they all knew how to box.

321
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:36,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they're all.

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Speaker 1: You know our uncle Billy Billy Smith. You know, if

323
00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:45,600
Speaker 1: you look up some of the best sort of street

324
00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,080
Speaker 1: fighters back in those days. You've got you've got him in.

325
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Speaker 1: Some of the boys that they'd say were the ones

326
00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:54,560
Speaker 1: that could go yeah and very good. A story in

327
00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,760
Speaker 1: there about visiting a fish and cheap shop. Our uncle

328
00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:01,440
Speaker 1: Billy cleaned up the bikes a through them through the window,

329
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:04,919
Speaker 1: and this guy was, you know, five foot seven with

330
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Speaker 1: coke bottle classes cheesy. Yeah, good fight.

331
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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, and the good fighter is a lot better

332
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Speaker 2: than people that can't.

333
00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:14,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't matter about size.

334
00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:18,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's quite compelling stuff. Just lead us through from

335
00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:22,359
Speaker 2: when your memory kicks in. When how far back do

336
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:24,399
Speaker 2: you think you can remember? You remember turning fourth for

337
00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:24,800
Speaker 2: a start.

338
00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:29,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, So my first memory, my literally my first memory,

339
00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:34,640
Speaker 1: I was living in a foster care situation. Now at

340
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:36,280
Speaker 1: the time, I wasn't aware I was in a foster

341
00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,880
Speaker 1: care situation. I thought that was my biological family.

342
00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:43,520
Speaker 2: The Seventh Adventures. Yeah, the one who belted it yep.

343
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:46,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I had this problem right up until I

344
00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:48,320
Speaker 1: was a teenager, until I got my nose quarter eyes.

345
00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,160
Speaker 1: But it used to just bleed nighttime. And then yeah,

346
00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:53,720
Speaker 1: the the person I thought was dad gave me a

347
00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,439
Speaker 1: pretty big belting for bleeding on the machine.

348
00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:01,600
Speaker 2: Unbelievably cruel thing to do something that's clearly involuntary.

349
00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:04,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seemed like it. But interestingly, it was around

350
00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:09,719
Speaker 1: that time when something clicked in my head and I

351
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:14,400
Speaker 1: looked a little bit closer at my surroundings and I realized.

352
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:15,399
Speaker 2: That I'm not different.

353
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:19,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I was this tall, curly haired kid. My

354
00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:23,240
Speaker 1: siblings had red hair and were plumping around and different.

355
00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:25,199
Speaker 1: Mum and Dad didn't look anything like me.

356
00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,640
Speaker 2: And you twigged, and I tweaked, and you still had

357
00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:34,680
Speaker 2: some faint memory of your siblings, some faint memory. I

358
00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,840
Speaker 2: I've just read this in the last twelve hours, but

359
00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:42,480
Speaker 2: just explain to the listeners how you came to be

360
00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:44,960
Speaker 2: reconciled with your biological father.

361
00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:48,600
Speaker 1: After that, it was just like any other Sunday morning,

362
00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,360
Speaker 1: and this seventh day at Venice. Family that I was with,

363
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,399
Speaker 1: you used to go to church every week, and I

364
00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:57,199
Speaker 1: was a very active child, so I was out just

365
00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:01,399
Speaker 1: running around the garden before church, literally just running laps

366
00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:05,760
Speaker 1: around this this rectangle. And this man walked into the

367
00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:10,760
Speaker 1: front gate, big burly guy, big thick arms and thick shoulders,

368
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,880
Speaker 1: and he had there was another person with him that

369
00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,959
Speaker 1: went towards the person I thought was my mother, and

370
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,760
Speaker 1: this man made a bee line straight to me, and

371
00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,399
Speaker 1: there was a moment of confusion, but he came straight

372
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,400
Speaker 1: to me and picked me up, and we just looked

373
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,919
Speaker 1: at each other. And I think the first thing I

374
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,399
Speaker 1: believe I said was can I go home? Can you

375
00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:40,720
Speaker 1: take me home? I just knew that was carried me

376
00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:42,360
Speaker 1: out to a waiting car.

377
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:46,120
Speaker 2: And seventh Advents didn't put up much opposition.

378
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,000
Speaker 1: Well, the other person that was there, and I know,

379
00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,280
Speaker 1: I don't know this for a fact. I believe was

380
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:55,800
Speaker 1: probably social work or someone. And I do know that

381
00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,440
Speaker 1: for a fact that Dad at that stage had had

382
00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:01,439
Speaker 1: won the to get his kids back through the new

383
00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:02,240
Speaker 1: South Walest courts.

384
00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,720
Speaker 2: He'd done it properly, done it properly. So he collected

385
00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:06,480
Speaker 2: all four of you.

386
00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,000
Speaker 1: He collected all three of us, colllected me and my

387
00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:09,920
Speaker 1: two sisters.

388
00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,920
Speaker 2: Oh, and Dave was Dave decided with your grandparents, with

389
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,000
Speaker 2: your maternal grandparents, yep, of course, yeah. And did Dave

390
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:18,200
Speaker 2: grow up with him pretty well.

391
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:22,240
Speaker 1: Grandpa died probably when Dave was pretty young, just a teenager,

392
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:26,080
Speaker 1: and then he went off really just made his own life.

393
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,480
Speaker 1: He became a gunsmith. But yeah, so I went back

394
00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:31,760
Speaker 1: to this waiting car and there was these two giggling

395
00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,679
Speaker 1: girls in the in the back seat and they were cheering,

396
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:37,119
Speaker 1: and they were my sisters.

397
00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:42,960
Speaker 2: Your grandparents in maternal grandparents, popping Nana. They lived originally

398
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:46,040
Speaker 2: they lived out on a property somewhere out of Sydney somewhere.

399
00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:46,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, yep, yep.

400
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:48,520
Speaker 2: What did grandpa do?

401
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,040
Speaker 1: Look, I never saw of saw him go off to work.

402
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:53,959
Speaker 1: It was just things that he do around the property.

403
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,440
Speaker 1: You just you know, fixing fences, little farm. Yeah, he's

404
00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:00,840
Speaker 1: a small farm. I didn't kind of see any maybe

405
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,840
Speaker 1: you know, a few cattle and things, but nothing, nothing significant.

406
00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,159
Speaker 1: Some sheep and a few cattle, but yeah, probably just

407
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,520
Speaker 1: more of a hobby sort of. I quite imagine that

408
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:09,840
Speaker 1: that day.

409
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,680
Speaker 2: He is more or less retired. And they'd adopted your

410
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:14,280
Speaker 2: mother when she.

411
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,840
Speaker 1: Was a little girl. Yep they had Yeah.

412
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:20,000
Speaker 2: And did they have any other children or adopted her, not.

413
00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:23,320
Speaker 1: That I'm aware of. No. So so their surname was Norris,

414
00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:24,440
Speaker 1: which which Mum talked.

415
00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,000
Speaker 2: Mom took back, And where did your mother meet your father?

416
00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:28,160
Speaker 2: And do you know the story?

417
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do know the story. Yeah, she was working

418
00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:35,040
Speaker 1: in a pub I believe, just pouring drinks. And she

419
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,399
Speaker 1: was a part time model as well. She was about

420
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:43,960
Speaker 1: twenty at least twenty years dad's junior, and Dad wasn't

421
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,520
Speaker 1: a big drinker. But we'd spend a lot of our

422
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:50,120
Speaker 1: time at pubs and always be these you know, these

423
00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:53,800
Speaker 1: accomplices of dads. It would be sitting around tables just

424
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,920
Speaker 1: just talking, and you know, they'd throw us some money

425
00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:58,280
Speaker 1: to go down to the milk bar and buy some

426
00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,640
Speaker 1: lollies while they they did, or do whatever they did.

427
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,320
Speaker 1: But Dad, anyway, obviously prior to us coming along in

428
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,320
Speaker 1: one of these meetings, that had met mum and they

429
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:09,160
Speaker 1: hit it off.

430
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,840
Speaker 2: And had four kids and had four and they stayed together.

431
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,120
Speaker 2: That would be back around the time Dave was born.

432
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,600
Speaker 2: I suppose. Yeah, he's how many years older than you?

433
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:19,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, seven years older than me, so mid sixties and.

434
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 2: Sixty five, and by seventy three, moms gone by seventy four,

435
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:25,800
Speaker 2: seventy four. I'm sorry.

436
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, So she's hit the toe, yep.

437
00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:31,919
Speaker 2: And you don't have a feeling one while or the

438
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:33,920
Speaker 2: other about it, anything bad having to her.

439
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,040
Speaker 1: No, I must admit it's something I hadn't thought of,

440
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,679
Speaker 1: and it was someone else that suggested it to me

441
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 1: that had I can sit and the way that this

442
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 1: came about. I had a phone call from somebody and

443
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:49,440
Speaker 1: I won't say all, someone who's in the media, who said,

444
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 1: we've done a bit of looking around and your story

445
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 1: about mum catching a bus and disappearing and never been

446
00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:02,400
Speaker 1: contacted was really similar to some others. Whether the result

447
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,119
Speaker 1: was that this person was murdered of course, had not

448
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:09,240
Speaker 1: disappeared forever and not made contact with anyone, and that

449
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:14,200
Speaker 1: was only this year that that that I.

450
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 2: Received that And that's not a crazy it's not a crazy.

451
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,879
Speaker 1: Theory crazy, No, it's not crazy at all. But what

452
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:20,320
Speaker 1: about the.

453
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:24,919
Speaker 2: Preparations for you, the grandparents to adopt you out and all?

454
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,680
Speaker 2: As if it was prepared Ink hurts with mum.

455
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we were taken to a seventh Day at

456
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:30,200
Speaker 1: Venice Church.

457
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:32,760
Speaker 2: Do you think they'd already mapped that out ahead?

458
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 1: Absolutely? Okay, yeah, yeah.

459
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,240
Speaker 2: I would suggest mummas there of anyon on them.

460
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 1: That would suggest that. Yeah, but that's the story that

461
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 1: I know. Yeh, that's all I've been to.

462
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,719
Speaker 2: Well, that's a point to But we're dealing with childish

463
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:51,239
Speaker 2: memories which are tricky, correct it's very very interesting and

464
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 2: you'd be very interested, you say, in finding your mother

465
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 2: if you could.

466
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:58,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'd love to know. Yeah what happened? I mean,

467
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 1: if she's live, you know, she would only be late seventies.

468
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,160
Speaker 2: What is her full legal name?

469
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:09,680
Speaker 1: Rose Marie Arnold? Arnold is her birth.

470
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 2: Name birth Rose Marie Arnold, known as Rose Marie Norris yep,

471
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 2: and possibly Rose Marie Pew at some start, maybe.

472
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe more likely Arnold or Norris.

473
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 2: When was she born do you think?

474
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:30,160
Speaker 1: I would say maybe late forties, early fifties, right, that's

475
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 1: early fifties possibly.

476
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, she was about twenty one.

477
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,400
Speaker 1: Name men, I was pretty young and then had Dave

478
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 1: pretty pretty quickly.

479
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:43,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, right, you're not really sure when Nana Pop lived.

480
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:45,679
Speaker 1: No, I just know, well, I know we're out it.

481
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 1: I think maybe Dural Durrell. Yeah, okay, potentially out that.

482
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 2: Way that way, Yeah, okay, No, that's an interesting thing.

483
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 2: And you never know who's listening, who might go Ah.

484
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:01,360
Speaker 2: Also there are people who are very good coming.

485
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,479
Speaker 1: Records, that's right, and had records, And if anyone listening

486
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 1: it feels the need or want to do that.

487
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:12,639
Speaker 2: Yes, get in touch. No worries Now the obvious question

488
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 2: is what happened to the bank robber? Your dad Gary

489
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:20,640
Speaker 2: Pugh alias Gary Reynolds alias Gary A lot of name

490
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 2: you've had? How many names you think you've had as

491
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 2: a kid growing up? So the name that you've answered,

492
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 2: Jesus what I had? Yeah?

493
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 1: So many? And you move to your Reynolds Yeah, you know,

494
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:33,200
Speaker 1: hope so and.

495
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 2: You always learned the name. Yeah, it was.

496
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 1: Always something that we got to we had to practice.

497
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 1: So Dad just you know, instilled that in us to

498
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,640
Speaker 1: just keep asking the question over and over again. Yeah,

499
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 1: because we went to a new school under a new.

500
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 2: Name each time, they could just do that each time. Yeah,

501
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 2: we just another name. How would the police keep finding him?

502
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,640
Speaker 2: Now you're in Shepperton after going from Bendio, let's say,

503
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 2: and he's in New South Wales like really originally, so

504
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,200
Speaker 2: it's not as if the Victorian couples all know him,

505
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:07,160
Speaker 2: no or not by sight necessarily. Then Monday bang bang bang,

506
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 2: one night, you know, they come through the door and

507
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 2: they arrest him Victoria's how would that be?

508
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you know, it wasn't long after that,

509
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 1: or probably a couple of years after that, that he

510
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 1: was featured on Australia's most wanted Oh that would help,

511
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: But that was two years after this particular time in

512
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 1: Shepherd And so he was in the probably you know,

513
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 1: the most wanted list I think at that time in

514
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,399
Speaker 1: Shepard And when we got raided was because of the fight.

515
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,159
Speaker 1: So we're living in Salvation Army, you restpite center in

516
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 1: Shepard And and we've been there for some time and

517
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 1: on occasion we could hear what sounded like sort of

518
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 1: a domestic dispute in the apartment unit next two hours

519
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 1: and for the most part we ignored it. It just

520
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 1: seemed like, you know, a couple yelling at each other.

521
00:26:55,920 --> 00:27:00,440
Speaker 1: On one particular morning, it seemed like it escalated sort

522
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: of breaking glass and a woman crying and a man, yeah,

523
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 1: yelling And it was that on this occasion that Dad

524
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 1: went to the door and knocked on the door and

525
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: was really polite and just you know, basically just sit,

526
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 1: I'm here, just to check that everyone's all right. This man,

527
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 1: who you know, was the one that was sort of

528
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 1: yelling at his wife and you know, potentially you know,

529
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 1: the domestic abuse perpetrator, stormed out of the front wire door,

530
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 1: you know, went straight into Dad and just started swearing

531
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 1: at that Dad, and Dad being Dad, sort of tried

532
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,880
Speaker 1: to remain calm, but that didn't last for too long

533
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 1: while this guy was continuing to swear, particularly in front

534
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,640
Speaker 1: of us kids. So it ended up that they were

535
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,880
Speaker 1: ended up in a fistfight, and you know, Dad got

536
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: him a couple of good ones and split his eye

537
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: open and his chin with her knee. But this was

538
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 1: a really, really really big man and eventually got the

539
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 1: upper hand on Dad and had him on the ground

540
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 1: with his arms around Dad's neck and he sort of

541
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 1: had one arm locked in around Dad's throat, and he

542
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,439
Speaker 1: was quite calm at this stage the big man, and

543
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: Dad's face was turning purple, and the man, in a

544
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 1: really kind of strange and almost psychopathic kind of voice,

545
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: just looked at us, you know, me and my siblings

546
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:30,719
Speaker 1: and said, you know, do you want your dad to

547
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 1: die today? And was just in a really sort of soft,

548
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 1: calm voice, which seemed you know, quite sort of spooky

549
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 1: to us, and as kids, you know, we were deeply impacted.

550
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: We were sobbing and crying, and you know, I think

551
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 1: one of my sisters had sort of dropped to her

552
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 1: knees and you know, rightfully so thought that dad was

553
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 1: going to die that day, and that was really only

554
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 1: broken up by you know, from the side came this

555
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: old man who you know, we don't ever really seen

556
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 1: the chain, smoke mental cigarettes and never spoke to any one,

557
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 1: and brought the stool that he sat on every ay

558
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: down on this big man's head and split his head

559
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 1: open and knocked him unconscious. So, yeah, an act of

560
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 1: courage from an old man who pretty much said nothing

561
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 1: at any time, does not it as you walked past

562
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: and decided to act on that day?

563
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 2: Good stuff. But within twelve hours the police had grabbed

564
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 2: your dad, yeah, and taken him off to Yeah. So

565
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 2: that large he had charges penning.

566
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, charges pending. Yeah, but that large man had had

567
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 1: said to us that day that he was going to

568
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 1: come and kill the whole family. Yeah, when we got

569
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 1: raided that night as kids, that's what I thought happened. Yeah,

570
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: until you know, I sort of woke up and Dad

571
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 1: was pinned to the floor with detectives, and as he

572
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 1: did every single time, he was quite calm and just

573
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 1: said it'll be our kay, Pete. I'll come and get

574
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 1: you as soon as I can.

575
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 2: Yeh.

576
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 1: That's another theme in the story is that Dad kept

577
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: his promise, always came back to find me. I could

578
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 1: couldn't always get all of us, but it always because

579
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: you were the baby. Was that yeah, yeah, at that time,

580
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 1: as we might get too old, as I then became

581
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: a state ward at Beltara, yeah yeah, and that it

582
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 1: was a government decision to put me into Beltara. I

583
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 1: was eleven, so that was pretty beautiful. It was horrible, yeah,

584
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: so you know, and I opened my book with an

585
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: open letter to the government of Victoria, just with a

586
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 1: statement that they told me that I was going to

587
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 1: be able to read at a hearing. And then once

588
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 1: they read my statement, they decided that it was too

589
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 1: hard for them to hear it.

590
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, too heartbreaking, too heartbreaking, and.

591
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 1: They decided, well at work out safety reasons for that,

592
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,239
Speaker 1: that they didn't want their people exposed, people exposed as

593
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 1: such as that, right, that was the excuse anyway, So

594
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: I've put that to very effect.

595
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 2: So Beltara, you're eleven, You're in there for X time

596
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 2: and it seems like a long time, but it might

597
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 2: have been months ago. Yeah, months, and then the wheel

598
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 2: turns again and a foster family they turn up and

599
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 2: take you in. And so at the end of this

600
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 2: first episode, we've got Peter eleven years old leaving bell Tara,

601
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 2: the Victorian State institution where he had to be put

602
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 2: and ahead of him was a big adventure where yet

603
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 2: again his dad finds him and they leave town. And

604
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 2: that is what we will hear next week when they

605
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 2: head west.

606
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 1: Thanks Andrew, look forward to when you're covering all that

607
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 1: off next week.

608
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. Life and Crimes is a Sunday Herald

609
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 2: Sun production for True Crime Australia. Our producer is Johnty Burton.

610
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 2: For my columns, features and or go to Haroldson dot

611
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 2: com dot au forward slash Andrew rule one word. For

612
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 2: advertising inquiries, go to news Podcasts sold at news dot

613
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 2: com dot au. That is all one word news podcasts

614
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 2: sold And if you want further information about this episode,

615
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 2: links are in the description