Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is
Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys, staid,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with Louisa Hope,
Speaker 1: a person who lived through the horror of being a
Speaker 1: hostage during the Limp siege. Louis are welcome back. Thank
Speaker 1: you again. I apologize. I'm going to say that the
Speaker 1: living this to get a sense of the impact that
Speaker 1: has on you as an individual. I think so people
Speaker 1: can understand because you speak so clearly about your experience there.
Speaker 1: But I asked you the other day in researching and
Speaker 1: preparing for the podcast, so I had to look at
Speaker 1: some old vision and watch the sixty minutes special on
Speaker 1: the Link Cafe Siege, which you featured prominently in And
Speaker 1: I was surprised when you said, I haven't watched it,
Speaker 1: so you are still carrying stuff from that from the experience.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that, you know, with regards to media,
Speaker 2: it's a very special place. And once you've once you've
Speaker 2: given over, you've given over your true self. And of
Speaker 2: course then the media can cut an edit and do
Speaker 2: it they want with that, so you have to trust
Speaker 2: them and so therefore, and of course it's just so
Speaker 2: so embarrassing to watch yourself, don't you think, Well, listen
Speaker 2: back and what exactly? So you know, like it's just
Speaker 2: probably more that than the you know, the angst of it.
Speaker 2: The interesting thing for me, of course, And I don't
Speaker 2: know how everyone else handled it, My mother and I.
Speaker 2: So after the siege, I was three months in hospital,
Speaker 2: Mum was about two weeks and then we all we
Speaker 2: lived together, my mother and I and my sister, God
Speaker 2: bless her. She came up from the coast, left her
Speaker 2: organic farm and came up to look after us because
Speaker 2: actually we needed looking after, and so we were all
Speaker 2: living together and it was obvious that Mom and I
Speaker 2: were having a very different experience. So which really when
Speaker 2: it comes to kind of the case study of these
Speaker 2: kind of things, that would have been interesting, you know,
Speaker 2: at the time to sort of follow our different paths.
Speaker 2: But for me, post siege, I feel like I had
Speaker 2: a post trauma euphoria in that. I mean, I was
Speaker 2: just so gob smacked an Amazer didn't die. I was
Speaker 2: just like just overwhelming gratitude and I just sort of
Speaker 2: went up. So, you know, it was about year eight
Speaker 2: before I realized that actually I was experiencing some post
Speaker 2: traumatic symptoms and psychological challenges, and so it was until
Speaker 2: then that I actually went and saw somebody properly about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting, and we'll talk a little bit more
Speaker 1: about the impact that they had on you, your mum, and
Speaker 1: everyone else later. Getting back to the siege, I think
Speaker 1: where we left off in part one, that the two
Speaker 1: girls had escaped, and the collectively as a group, you
Speaker 1: managed to talk momus around into not believing what's been
Speaker 1: reported in the media and potentially placated the situation to
Speaker 1: the fact that he didn't kill a hostage like he
Speaker 1: threatened to if anyone else escaped. We're now getting to
Speaker 1: know it started in the morning, starting to get dark.
Speaker 1: I think in Thissu came he was getting agitated that
Speaker 1: the street lights were on. Talk us through that and
Speaker 1: what the tension was in the room as you like,
Speaker 1: you set your sights on things, if I can just
Speaker 1: get through this day, but when the day is starting
Speaker 1: to turn into night, what how you feeling as an
Speaker 1: individual and what did you feel like the atmosphere of
Speaker 1: the group was.
Speaker 2: Well, we're starting to get to that point, especially as
Speaker 2: nights started to come in. But we're definitely getting to
Speaker 2: that stage. You know, we're still trying everything. Like at
Speaker 2: one stage someone said, let's try Al Jaz's. We're trying
Speaker 2: Eljaz's and let's try you know, CEE and.
Speaker 1: All the international kits to the media.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So we're still trying to do that, knowing
Speaker 2: that they would be starting to wake up around that time,
Speaker 2: and we're still trying BBC the whole night, whole nine yards.
Speaker 2: Really it was everybody. We're trying and so becoming increasingly challenging,
Speaker 2: and of course by then the negotiators were ringing us. Police,
Speaker 2: negotiators were ringing us, and hostages were speaking to them
Speaker 2: and with you know, little bits and things that he
Speaker 2: wanted during the day, and so there was that, and
Speaker 2: hostages were, you know, trying to speak to the negotiators
Speaker 2: and placate him and just kind of try and keep
Speaker 2: things on an even keel. But of course the nights
Speaker 2: pressing in now, and one of the things that started
Speaker 2: to happen was he started to get agitated about the lights.
Speaker 2: So of course in Martin Place it was nearly Christmas,
Speaker 2: so there was a giant Christmas tree and all the
Speaker 2: lights on the Christmas tree, and then they're worth the
Speaker 2: pedestrian lights, which is funny how you hear them. They're
Speaker 2: louder at nighttime than they are during the day. So
Speaker 2: he's starting to say things like I want to get
Speaker 2: the lights turned off. So we're ringing the negotiators, We're
Speaker 2: trying to get through to them. At one stage we
Speaker 2: rang the number that the negotiators had given us, and
Speaker 2: of course nobody answered that was a little bit peculiar.
Speaker 1: So just hold it there and we'll get back to that.
Speaker 1: But just clarifying speaking to them go shaders, so on
Speaker 1: your mobile phones making contact with the GA Shaders and
Speaker 1: momus was happy for you to talk to them the
Speaker 1: GA Shaders. Yeah, I was on speaker phone? Was it
Speaker 1: so he could hear what was being said?
Speaker 2: That's right?
Speaker 1: And what type of communications were being had.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, it was peculiar speaking with them, I've
Speaker 2: got to say. So. They so we were asking for
Speaker 2: things like the lights to be turned off, and at
Speaker 2: one stage, one of the negotiators we're saying, you know,
Speaker 2: we asked a while ago these lights. One of them,
Speaker 2: he wants the lights turned off. And the chat we
Speaker 2: were speaking to at the moment in the moment, I
Speaker 2: can't remember what their name was, but he said, well,
Speaker 2: it's not just straightforward to get the lights turned off.
Speaker 2: And we're all like, what, you know, how hard could
Speaker 2: that possibly be? You know, really, in this moment, whoever
Speaker 2: turns off the lights should be right there on the spot,
Speaker 2: but apparently not. So there was a lot of that
Speaker 2: kind of thing going on, and you know, the police
Speaker 2: were getting no closer to speaking to him personally. He
Speaker 2: was definitely not going to speak to them personally. He used,
Speaker 2: you know, different ones of the women to speak to them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So he refused to speak directly to that's
Speaker 1: current place. Yes, all right, we've got the situation with
Speaker 1: the lights. As I understand that, the lights became an
Speaker 1: issue where he became agitated to the point where he said,
Speaker 1: if the lights aren't turned off in fifteen minutes, someone's
Speaker 1: going to die. Yeah, that was what was the atmosphere
Speaker 1: like then.
Speaker 2: That was very tense and quite distressing, and you know
Speaker 2: the so that like raises the bar again and yeah,
Speaker 2: so of course it's making all of us. We're fatiguing
Speaker 2: as well. The day's going on and everyone's getting anxious
Speaker 2: and tired and more so, you know, thinking that here
Speaker 2: we are. In my head, I personally was thinking, well,
Speaker 2: we've missed the other opportunities. Okay, probably what the police
Speaker 2: will do was aim for that, you know, that three
Speaker 2: am time where everybody everyone's circadian rhythms, you know, up
Speaker 2: and down, and maybe they'll come in then. So I
Speaker 2: sort of thought to myself, Okay, I don't know what
Speaker 2: time it is, but we've got a little way to
Speaker 2: go yet. Then they're definitely going to come in then, right.
Speaker 2: So that was just generally, but of course the other
Speaker 2: thing was was that people were collectively getting discouraged that
Speaker 2: there'd been no police and there was no give on
Speaker 2: behalf of the police. Earlier on in the siege, there
Speaker 2: had been a armored truck you know, collect the money,
Speaker 2: parked out the front, and he said he wanted that moved.
Speaker 2: So the police had arranged for that to be moved quickly,
Speaker 2: which was a good thing. But as time went by
Speaker 2: and of course things changed, it went from being a
Speaker 2: situation to being a terrorist event. So from that point
Speaker 2: of view, I know that it changed within the police,
Speaker 2: and of course that meant that we don't negotiate with terrorists,
Speaker 2: and so there was no negotiation.
Speaker 1: So that was Yeah, from your point of view, is
Speaker 1: a hostage point of view? Was there and collectively as
Speaker 1: a group you can talk on behalf of the group
Speaker 1: if you feel comfortable. Was there some frustration?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, because it just from our point of view being
Speaker 2: in the room, we knew that if he was just
Speaker 2: given a little bit of you know, grace for one
Speaker 2: of a better word, but a little bit of room,
Speaker 2: you know, and to feel like he's had a little win,
Speaker 2: then maybe you know, he'll be plicated once again. So
Speaker 2: we were looking for that and to therefore wait then
Speaker 2: that little bit longer for when the police come in,
Speaker 2: so you know, and avoid somebody being killed. So that
Speaker 2: was where we were collectively at. I think it's fair to.
Speaker 1: Say, well, the people talking to the police, highlighting the
Speaker 1: fact that yeah, this is very real, like someone's going
Speaker 1: to die. Was like I can imagine if I was
Speaker 1: at the end of the phone, not as a police officer,
Speaker 1: as a whole, I'd be making the point very clear.
Speaker 1: Hate listen to what I'm saying. Is that the type
Speaker 1: of conversation that was flowing.
Speaker 2: Definitely, you know, So that was you know, people were
Speaker 2: beginning to become very vocal and frustrated with dealing with
Speaker 2: the police, especially you know, that time when the number
Speaker 2: that we've been given was not answered. And then one
Speaker 2: of the girls I know went on to ring one
Speaker 2: of the local it was either a radio station or
Speaker 2: television station. I can't recall which, but she rang, and
Speaker 2: God love, I'm the poor woman who answered the phone said,
Speaker 2: I can't do anything for you've got a number, ring
Speaker 2: the number, and you know, our girl in the room says,
Speaker 2: we've rung the number, but they don't answer, you know,
Speaker 2: And so the frustration was across the board, you know, foolishly,
Speaker 2: I had thought in the moment that the police would
Speaker 2: have had cops placed amongst all the you know, local
Speaker 2: media outlets and sort of listening in and conversation. I
Speaker 2: don't know why I thought that there'd be that level
Speaker 2: of a sophistication in this situation, but I did, and
Speaker 2: I thought that there'd be a cross all to that.
Speaker 2: And so I really feel for the woman who answered
Speaker 2: the phone at the random media outlet, sort of the
Speaker 2: pressure that she must have felt. You know, I can't
Speaker 2: do anything for you ring the number that the police
Speaker 2: have given you, and you know, so it was this
Speaker 2: kind of looping.
Speaker 1: What was going on? So you were given a number
Speaker 1: or when I say you, I'm talking collectively as hostages
Speaker 1: and moms for that matter, given the number that if
Speaker 1: you need to speak to us, we're on this number.
Speaker 1: That's right, and the number is fine, Then that didn't
Speaker 1: answer that's right.
Speaker 2: So you know, I understand, you know, in hindsight, having
Speaker 2: having gone to the inquest, that the reason for that
Speaker 2: was that there was some sort of a collective handover
Speaker 2: meeting at the time at the time that we made
Speaker 2: that call, so there was nobody actually in their situation
Speaker 2: room to answer the call, which was unfortunate.
Speaker 1: Really, I go as far and I'm a police officer,
Speaker 1: and I make mistakes like we all do, but that's
Speaker 1: not unfortunate. That's unforgivable. But in the chaos of it,
Speaker 1: hindsight's a wonderful thing. So I'm not going to judge him.
Speaker 1: But I think you've been very kind saying unfortunate. It
Speaker 1: shouldn't happen. And we've talked off Mike, and we'll talk
Speaker 1: further about it. Lessons that need to be learned, and
Speaker 1: we can all always improve. But the one thing that
Speaker 1: should have priority is the hot line straight to what's
Speaker 1: going on in the seage the fifteen minutes the lights
Speaker 1: turned off. Were they turned off in the fifteen minutes?
Speaker 1: I would imagine as it was getting dark, tensions arising. Anyway,
Speaker 1: you've indicated that the place when everyone's a little bit
Speaker 1: tired around about the three am mark. Let's not give
Speaker 1: away police methodology, but they might come in there. But
Speaker 1: I would imagine also as it got dark, you've been
Speaker 1: through the whole day and thinking, Okay, they're waiting for
Speaker 1: it to get dark, then they're going to make the move.
Speaker 1: All the lights will go off and the police will
Speaker 1: come storm in in the building.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. You know, that was starting to become
Speaker 2: the place of hope that you know it's going to happen.
Speaker 2: It's got to happen soon. But it was just sort
Speaker 2: of what was becoming obvious amongst the collective was that
Speaker 2: we were running out of options. We'd run out of
Speaker 2: options for media. He was concerned that he at one
Speaker 2: stage had said that he'd release a hostage in good faith.
Speaker 2: There was even a discussion about who that should be.
Speaker 2: And you know, the fact of the matter is, with
Speaker 2: all of that happening, he then was hesitant to release
Speaker 2: this hostage because he said he couldn't rely on the
Speaker 2: media to tell people that he had done that in
Speaker 2: good faith. So, yeah, that didn't happen obviously, and so
Speaker 2: all of that, So all these discussions and negotiations and
Speaker 2: considerations about who should be released and who should it
Speaker 2: was just intense. So at one point at the Inquest,
Speaker 2: they were saying things were settling down in the stronghold,
Speaker 2: which of course is what they call the cafe, but
Speaker 2: the opposite was actually true. Things were building. The tension
Speaker 2: was building ad because we knew that we'd run out
Speaker 2: of options. We could not get this media attention that
Speaker 2: we had been trying to get for him all day.
Speaker 2: So where does he go?
Speaker 1: Now?
Speaker 2: What do we do?
Speaker 1: And what you said? Then, again with the benefit of
Speaker 1: hindsight and from what came out in the inquest, is
Speaker 1: I understand that how it was reported that there was
Speaker 1: a perception within the police and the people that have
Speaker 1: been relying on to give an opinion that it's going
Speaker 1: to settle down, they'll settle down overnight. But what you're
Speaker 1: saying it was completely the opposite. He was getting agitated.
Speaker 1: You guys were getting agitated and the tension was rising
Speaker 1: in the stronghold.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, That's how it really was. And so
Speaker 2: you know, like, of course, no one's screaming or shouting,
Speaker 2: and if they were observing from the outside, they just
Speaker 2: think it was quiet in there, and all of the
Speaker 2: lights were off inside the cafe, so you know, but
Speaker 2: that was a wrong assumption.
Speaker 1: Definitely an assumption. Think when there's only one terrorist in there,
Speaker 1: one person controlling that that person's going to it's just
Speaker 1: going to stay awake the whole night, which is possible,
Speaker 1: but obviously it starts to get weary.
Speaker 2: That's right, You've got to assume that, you know.
Speaker 1: He wouldn't have thought that's going to go I'm going
Speaker 1: to be sitting up all night trying to sort this out.
Speaker 2: No, that's right. I mean, you know, like the night
Speaker 2: makes you tired, doesn't it. And so yes, of course
Speaker 2: what was the plan?
Speaker 1: We didn't know. Did you settle down at any particular
Speaker 1: point in time? Was there a time you're sitting, standing
Speaker 1: or laying on the floor. Did you at one point
Speaker 1: in time go well, it's just whatever's going to happen
Speaker 1: is going to happen.
Speaker 2: No, well, that certainly towards you know, is that the
Speaker 2: nights creeping on there. It was definitely we I think
Speaker 2: I could say we were feeling the collective nowhere else
Speaker 2: to go, you know, a sense amongst us, and it
Speaker 2: was like, well what happens now? So there's a certain
Speaker 2: sense being you know, reduced to that and being left
Speaker 2: with that, well what can we do now? Like so
Speaker 2: that had a certain sense of heaviness about it, but
Speaker 2: it was not a settling because there was still discussion
Speaker 2: going on, and still he was then become busy thinking.
Speaker 2: You know, we could tell that he was trying to
Speaker 2: work out what to do and then and then he
Speaker 2: says to the young went workers to get us our
Speaker 2: tea food once again, weird, So you know we did that,
Speaker 2: had tea and food.
Speaker 1: Okay, take us through till sort of midnight. What's the
Speaker 1: next significant thing that took place.
Speaker 2: Well, then then we're all sitting around looking at each
Speaker 2: other in a way with not knowing what else to do,
Speaker 2: and we've had some food and drink. And he then
Speaker 2: gets to the point where he see all during the
Speaker 2: whole day there were noises in the cafe, just ordinary
Speaker 2: noises in a cafe, but they they rattled him. He
Speaker 2: was like, what's that, you know, thinking it's the police
Speaker 2: and all that kind of thing. So there was the
Speaker 2: noise of the ice making machine in the cafe, and
Speaker 2: it just kind of goes cla cathud, you know, every
Speaker 2: hour on the hour, and there's the noises from the
Speaker 2: industrial fridges. So there's all these noises, and every time
Speaker 2: the ice machine went, we all just went, it's the
Speaker 2: ice machine, you know, relaxed. Yeah, that's right, so you know,
Speaker 2: but we all got used to those noises, and of
Speaker 2: course they're louder in the nighttime. And he heard this
Speaker 2: noise and he wasn't sure, and he decided that he
Speaker 2: wanted to go to the cafe himself, sorry, Gosh, to
Speaker 2: go into the kitchen himself. And so that's what he
Speaker 2: decided he was going to do. He was going to
Speaker 2: go into the kitchen and investigate the noise. What was
Speaker 2: the noise? So there we all are, we're in the cafe,
Speaker 2: just broadly sitting around together, and he says, right, we're
Speaker 2: going to go you. He points to Selena and Fiona,
Speaker 2: mar and Jared, so three hostages, and he says, we're
Speaker 2: going into the kitchen. He put the two girls in
Speaker 2: front of him, then him, then Jared. I think that's correct.
Speaker 2: And he starts to walk towards the kitchen. Okay, and
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, right, you paying attention now, this is different.
Speaker 2: He's not done this the whole days. Unusual. Okay, then
Speaker 2: what's where's he going? What's he going to do?
Speaker 1: So, and the kitchen is divided from the cafe, so
Speaker 1: when he's walking into the kitchen, you guys are out
Speaker 1: the side, when he's out the site of view.
Speaker 2: Exactly on your own, yeah, effectively, So we're walking and
Speaker 2: then he randomly says he's on his way in a line.
Speaker 2: Everyone's walking in a line towards the kitchen, watching and thinking,
Speaker 2: and then he says to Jared Young Jared Morton Hoffmann.
Speaker 2: He says, you mind the door. Mind the door. And
Speaker 2: that's the door that goes between the back of the
Speaker 2: cafe and the vestabile area for the rest of the building,
Speaker 2: and that's a glass door where the young girls had
Speaker 2: escaped through. Okay, mind the door, Jared. And I'm thinking
Speaker 2: as if jared'skind of mind the doorway, and then he
Speaker 2: says he keeps walking with the two girls. Now at
Speaker 2: that stage, I majorly started to panic. I'm sitting there
Speaker 2: in my chair, you know, like everyone's around, and I go,
Speaker 2: oh my god, what's going to happen? He's going to
Speaker 2: take them to the kitchen. What's he going to do?
Speaker 2: Is he going to kill one of them? Or is
Speaker 2: it going to be something worse? What is he going
Speaker 2: to do to those two girls? And he's walking towards
Speaker 2: the kitchen. And of course, by then, Gary, I'm in
Speaker 2: a mad, frantic panic because I'm thinking what's going to happen? Right?
Speaker 2: So in that moment, I just closed my eyes really
Speaker 2: tight and I started to pray, like a crazy woman, like, God,
Speaker 2: are you here? Are you watching? Can you see what's happening?
Speaker 2: Those girls are going to die? What's going to happen?
Speaker 2: And then all of a sudden, there's big bang and
Speaker 2: I opened my eyes and literally all of my fellow
Speaker 2: hostages that were sitting right there had gone, and I went, oh, okay,
Speaker 2: we're going right, So I stood up, and then of
Speaker 2: course Tory Johnson and my mother was sitting behind me
Speaker 2: on the bench seat really close to me. So I
Speaker 2: get up and I go towards the door and I
Speaker 2: think the others have gone. What's happened? Blah blah, And
Speaker 2: I'm on my way towards the door anyway, Tory and
Speaker 2: Mom are not moving, so I'm trying to because I
Speaker 2: didn't have my glasses on and it was dark in
Speaker 2: the cafe, and I'm trying to come on, come with me,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm indicating for them to come with me.
Speaker 2: They're not moving. So I'm going towards the door and
Speaker 2: I'm literally nearly at the door, and I went, what
Speaker 2: am I going to do? I can't leave without Mum.
Speaker 2: And I literally spun around on one leg, you know,
Speaker 2: because I haven't got a walking stick or anything, you know,
Speaker 2: and I'm literally did that, and I thought, I can't
Speaker 2: leave my mother, So you know, I didn't know what
Speaker 2: to do. So I just lay down on the floor
Speaker 2: and put my arms out and I thought he's going
Speaker 2: to come and kill me because I'm not in the
Speaker 2: spot that he left me in. And I thought, definitely,
Speaker 2: this is it dying today. And you know, I had
Speaker 2: a whole lot of different thoughts, but in the moment,
Speaker 2: it was like, oh, well, here we go. But within
Speaker 2: seconds he was over the top of me. He grabbed
Speaker 2: me by my brass strap through the back of my
Speaker 2: dress and hauled me up. And I'm a bit dodgy
Speaker 2: on my feet, you know, And so his panicked is
Speaker 2: absolutely in a frantic panic state, and he didn't know
Speaker 2: whether to sit me or stand you know what. He
Speaker 2: sit here. No, he just was so confused. And then
Speaker 2: in the end he says, and he walks a bit
Speaker 2: closer out into the middle of the cafe and closer
Speaker 2: to the front door, and he says, you stand here
Speaker 2: on my right side. And then he says to Mum,
Speaker 2: you come here, and he places her on his right side,
Speaker 2: which is the kitchen side, and then he calls to
Speaker 2: Tory Johnson and he says, you manager, come here, kneel
Speaker 2: down and put your hands on your head. So of
Speaker 2: course that was like, you know, because what's that, that's
Speaker 2: execution position. Like it was just terrifying in the moment,
Speaker 2: and by then you can imagine I don't know how
Speaker 2: the mum was, but I absolutely was dropping with adrenaline
Speaker 2: and you know, just totally freaked out and thinking what's
Speaker 2: going to happen, what's going to happen. He's going to
Speaker 2: kill Tory? And then he starts to shuffle, and he's
Speaker 2: shuffling where he's standing, he's got he's holding his gun
Speaker 2: up and he's scanning the front door and he's scanning, assuming,
Speaker 2: as we were, that the police were coming, and so
Speaker 2: he's doing that scan thing. Then he actually drops down
Speaker 2: into one of the pockets on his cargo pants and
Speaker 2: pulls out more bullets and I watch him put them
Speaker 2: into the gun and then he's doing the scanning thing,
Speaker 2: and he's just and I'm thinking he's gonna kill Tori
Speaker 2: and then bang, But what he does is shoots up
Speaker 2: into the right hand side of the ceiling. So it's
Speaker 2: like he didn't kill Tory. You know, he didn't kill him.
Speaker 2: It was like like this overwhelming relief. And then and
Speaker 2: then he goes back to scanning and we're waiting, where
Speaker 2: are the police? When are they coming in to rescue us?
Speaker 2: And you know, so he's scanning the room again and
Speaker 2: he's going through the same motions, and the next minute
Speaker 2: he knows, he does the same thing. He shuffles, puts
Speaker 2: the gun up to his shoulder and then he goes bang,
Speaker 2: and this time he shot Tory and Tory just fell
Speaker 2: forward and he fell forward and he had his hands
Speaker 2: I could see still on the back of his head
Speaker 2: and he just fell forward, you know. And in that
Speaker 2: moment you think or maybe he just hit him in
Speaker 2: the shoulder, you know, maybe he didn't kill him. Maybe
Speaker 2: he just ted his shoulder and he's just gone forward,
Speaker 2: and you know, as he went down, the table bounced
Speaker 2: to hit the leg of the table, and it was
Speaker 2: just like I couldn't believe that had I just couldn't
Speaker 2: believe that he had killed him was dead. I just
Speaker 2: was overwhelmed with the shock of it, and it was
Speaker 2: unbelievable in the moment, and the overwhelming physical sense of
Speaker 2: adrenaline and fear and terror was just so intense and
Speaker 2: then what, well, then where the police. The police have
Speaker 2: got to come now, but they didn't. Now I can't
Speaker 2: tell you the minutes that that took for them to come,
Speaker 2: but it just was so we're waiting and I'm thinking,
Speaker 2: what's next. Well, it's only Mum and I that he
Speaker 2: doesn't know that, you know, Marsia is still in the room,
Speaker 2: or Katrina for that matter. I didn't know Katrina was
Speaker 2: still in the room. So we're looking and I'm thinking,
Speaker 2: this is it. He'll take kill Mum or I or
Speaker 2: both of us together. So you know, it was just
Speaker 2: sort of like so overwhelming, and we're waiting and waiting
Speaker 2: for the police to come. And it was like a
Speaker 2: car accident, you know, when it's happened so fast but
Speaker 2: slow at the same time. So we're in that sort
Speaker 2: of scenario and it just was so intense. And then
Speaker 2: the next minute, all this color started to fill the room,
Speaker 2: and then smoke, and then it was just like this
Speaker 2: sort of surreal kind of thing. I'm seeing reds and
Speaker 2: oranges and everything, and then smoke and then kaboom. Then
Speaker 2: all the police starts to come in. They're firing and
Speaker 2: they're firing and firing and all the bullets and it
Speaker 2: was just incredible haze of and I'm still standing there
Speaker 2: where he had placed me. I'm still and I'm like, oh, no,
Speaker 2: what you know, well, if I just stand well, I
Speaker 2: was right next to him, so close that when he
Speaker 2: turned around, I could feel his backpack hitting me in
Speaker 2: the shoulder. And I'm hanging on for grim death, not
Speaker 2: wanting to fall over. And so you know this was
Speaker 2: but that when the bullets started firing, I just had
Speaker 2: that moment where I thought, I just stand still, one
Speaker 2: of those police would just come in and shoot him,
Speaker 2: bang dead, and then it'll all be over. But that's
Speaker 2: not what happened. And then someone called out get down,
Speaker 2: get down. I don't know where or what that where
Speaker 2: that come from. And then I'm thinking, well, how do
Speaker 2: I get down? You know, like, and then the next
Speaker 2: minute I had felt another hit and that hit knocked
Speaker 2: me off and I staggered across towards the bench side
Speaker 2: seat and I slid down one of the tables and
Speaker 2: then I was on the ground. So and I really
Speaker 2: have this kind of missing piece in my memory of
Speaker 2: standing and then on the ground, so I don't kind
Speaker 2: of exactly know what happened, but it was just sort
Speaker 2: of so intense, and all the time the bullets just
Speaker 2: kept firing and firing. It kept going, and I'm lying
Speaker 2: there on the floor this stage, and I looked down
Speaker 2: and I suddenly noticed that the straps from my good
Speaker 2: sandals are gone. And I'm thinking, oh no, my good sandals.
Speaker 2: How am I going to get that fixed? Oh my god,
Speaker 2: I'm going to die, you know. But like your mind,
Speaker 2: you know, what do you think of? And then it's
Speaker 2: just constantly, constantly, it doesn't stop. It's so intense, keeps going,
Speaker 2: all these bullets and then the smoke. And then I
Speaker 2: had my eyes closed, and I had my eyes closed
Speaker 2: with my hands over my eyes, and I actually thought,
Speaker 2: we've survived this whole day, but we're definitely going to
Speaker 2: die now. I'm as a watch, you know. So I
Speaker 2: took my hands away, opened my eyes and all I
Speaker 2: could see was smoke. And you know, it was dark
Speaker 2: in the room, and the shads of light from outside,
Speaker 2: and you could see the smoke in the shards of light.
Speaker 2: It was so intense. And then it was crazy and
Speaker 2: just kept going. And then all of a sudden, bank
Speaker 2: stopped just stopped quiet. I was like, it stopped, and yeah,
Speaker 2: it was peculiar. Then there was that moment and I
Speaker 2: sort of half sat up and I was feeling my
Speaker 2: head and checking my and I'm thinking, I'm not ted,
Speaker 2: you know, I was such a surprise. I knew that
Speaker 2: my foot was something wrong with my foot because I'd
Speaker 2: been through that where I was in such pain, but
Speaker 2: I thought they could still firing, so I can't. They
Speaker 2: don't know where he is. He's not dead, so I
Speaker 2: can't scream out. So anyway, and then the next minute
Speaker 2: one of the TU guys is over the top of
Speaker 2: me and he's he's shouting, get up, get up, run run,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, run, isn't it over? You know, run run,
Speaker 2: he's saying, and I say, I can't my foot and
Speaker 2: he says, well, can you hop? And he hauls me
Speaker 2: up by one hand. Hop shure, man, you say, hop,
Speaker 2: I'll just hop right out here. And it was like,
Speaker 2: because you know, they're pretty big and scary, those dudes, right,
Speaker 2: and I know that they're the heroes, but like in
Speaker 2: the moment, it was yeah, sure, So I started to
Speaker 2: hop out of the cafe, you know, which is really
Speaker 2: when I think about It must have been a sight
Speaker 2: to see, but you know, and then of course two
Speaker 2: of the guys come behind me, picked me up, scooped
Speaker 2: me up, took me out and put me lay me
Speaker 2: on Philip Street. But it was just it's so intense.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I haven't interrupted you because you created the
Speaker 1: atmosphere as what would happen there, and you know basically
Speaker 1: what you've described. Tory's been put on his knees and
Speaker 1: executed in front of you, and the trauma that's associated
Speaker 1: from there, and then that time delay and you're thinking
Speaker 1: what's going to happen? Where does it go from there?
Speaker 1: And you're standing beside this person that's just murdered someone
Speaker 1: right in front of you, so I can understand your concern.
Speaker 1: And then a police have broken windows and throwing flash
Speaker 1: grenades in there to distract and create chaos. And in
Speaker 1: knowing the scene and knowing the scene very well because
Speaker 1: I did the crime scene is it would have been
Speaker 1: so noisy and things would have been echoing and it
Speaker 1: would have been just chaos for you. And then when
Speaker 1: the police have come in, I'm anticipating this still not
Speaker 1: one hundred percent clarification where there's a bomb that's going
Speaker 1: to go off, So there's an urgency to get you
Speaker 1: out of there, that's right. So all this is going
Speaker 1: through your mind at the time when you were actually
Speaker 1: taken out into Martin Place or where you got out,
Speaker 1: did you have time to process what you had just
Speaker 1: seen and been for.
Speaker 2: You know, probably not really like I, for example, like
Speaker 2: I didn't know where my mother was, lost sight of
Speaker 2: mum and all of that, and so I was on
Speaker 2: Phillips Street, lighting on the road where they put me,
Speaker 2: and it was just so silent Gary. The city was quiet,
Speaker 2: really quiet, but at the same time there was boots
Speaker 2: on the pavement and the running and shouting and you know,
Speaker 2: things are going on and it's all happening, but it
Speaker 2: was at the same time quiet, you know. And of
Speaker 2: course my brain's exploded with ten trillion things, and I'm thinking,
Speaker 2: oh my god, I can't believe I have survived. And
Speaker 2: then my next thought is, Mum's definitely dead. Mum's definitely dead.
Speaker 2: There's no way anyone could have survived that. And then
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, how am I going to tell my
Speaker 2: brother and sister? You know that Mum was with me,
Speaker 2: and you know, so your thoughts are crazy, and at
Speaker 2: the same time, I'm thinking about the fact that this
Speaker 2: awful thing has just happened, and how are we going
Speaker 2: to get some sort of good out of what's happened?
Speaker 2: Because I was freaked out about that, how are we
Speaker 2: possibly going to recover as a society. And also, you know,
Speaker 2: I was very mindful of like looking for that good
Speaker 2: what good thing can we possibly get out of what's
Speaker 2: just happened. And I was terrified really that there'd be
Speaker 2: race rights in the street. I remember thinking at the time,
Speaker 2: Oh man, this is going to be bad tomorrow morning. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, like I really that was. But you think
Speaker 2: when those kind of things happened that when the disaster
Speaker 2: comes to you, you kind of like thinking layers. You know,
Speaker 2: you're thinking with your body and you're in pain. And
Speaker 2: then and I was convinced just going to lose my
Speaker 2: foot because it was pretty big hole at the time.
Speaker 1: Okay, so that was a bullet fragment that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it turned out to be just a shrapnel from
Speaker 2: a police bullet, and I've got shrapnel in various parts
Speaker 2: of my body, had caught some in my belly, and
Speaker 2: you know, just then the big one that hit my
Speaker 2: foot and you know, it's funny how things work, you know.
Speaker 2: But I have a walking stick and I've had that
Speaker 2: for a little while and that was because of MS.
Speaker 2: And I have something they call drop foot, so that
Speaker 2: means that the foot doesn't quite work the way it should.
Speaker 2: So I had this drop foot and it happened to
Speaker 2: be my left foot. But the foot that I took
Speaker 2: the shrapnel to was my left foot. So you know,
Speaker 2: from my point of view, I have to say that
Speaker 2: was amazing, amazing grace that I got hit in my
Speaker 2: dodgy foot. I mean, if I'd been hit in my
Speaker 2: right foot, yeah, we're in life much more complicated, so
Speaker 2: you know. I mean it's still, you know, hideous scar
Speaker 2: and quite bad, but you know, and impacts on my
Speaker 2: balance and stuff, but really could have been a whole
Speaker 2: lot worse.
Speaker 1: And you know, yeah, what point in time did you
Speaker 1: find out that your mum was safe?
Speaker 2: Well, when I was on Philip Street, I started to
Speaker 2: yell out, well the first thing actually I did. It
Speaker 2: sounds peculiar, but had a little song and I just
Speaker 2: sang amazing grace to myself. Thought nobody was around. Of course,
Speaker 2: there's heaps of people.
Speaker 1: You can do anything. You want to do, and no
Speaker 1: one's going to cause you crazy after what you've been through.
Speaker 2: But anyway, so had a little song. I was just
Speaker 2: so grateful, you know. And then and then I'm lying
Speaker 2: there and the pain is increasing, and then this lovely
Speaker 2: lady come over. She was a policewoman and she held
Speaker 2: my hand. She said, you wouldn't leave me, and she
Speaker 2: had her flat flat jacket on and a helmet on
Speaker 2: and everything. And then the medic came and gave me
Speaker 2: some pain relief, and I said to the medic, it's
Speaker 2: just my foot. Don't have to worry anything else, you know.
Speaker 2: And but of course it wasn't just my foot. But anyway,
Speaker 2: in the moment, and then I'm sitting there and I
Speaker 2: remember saying to her, I remember saying, where's my mum?
Speaker 2: And I think in the moment she actually thought I
Speaker 2: was saying I want my mom, like I want my mother,
Speaker 2: but actually I was saying, no, no, Mum was in the
Speaker 2: cafe with me, and I just need to know where
Speaker 2: she is, what's happened to her. And so of course
Speaker 2: then the words going around, where where's you know, blah blah,
Speaker 2: and they had taken mom out on she said a
Speaker 2: blue tarp. They ran her down Martin Place because, of course,
Speaker 2: what we didn't understand because I think we'd all figured
Speaker 2: that there was no bomb, but the police didn't know that,
Speaker 2: and so they're reacting like there's a bomb and so.
Speaker 2: But anyway, so this and that, and then I was
Speaker 2: just about to get into the ambulance and they said
Speaker 2: we've got your mother, and I'm like, oh, thank goodness,
Speaker 2: They've got her. And then I thought, what does that
Speaker 2: mean They've got her to what stage she? And you know,
Speaker 2: But anyway, so I went to Prince of Wale's and
Speaker 2: Mum went to RPA.
Speaker 1: Okay, so and you were in there for three months? Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: so it was significant physical injuries, but also I would
Speaker 1: imagine mental injuries. When did you find out Katrina the
Speaker 1: Dawson was killed?
Speaker 2: You know, I did not know that Katrina was in there.
Speaker 2: When they originally told me that one of the other
Speaker 2: hostages had died, I made the assumption. I jumped to
Speaker 2: the assumption that one of the girls who had gone
Speaker 2: had taken into the kitchen had actually been killed. And
Speaker 2: so I had a little bit of confusion initially about that.
Speaker 2: But you know, and then of course when people explained.
Speaker 2: And then of course, you know, because I wasn't watching
Speaker 2: media in hospital just but my friends were coming in
Speaker 2: and telling me what was happening in Martin Place and
Speaker 2: what the media was saying. And you know, it was
Speaker 2: very difficult in those early hours after because there was
Speaker 2: one media report apparently that went that Tory Johnson had
Speaker 2: attacked the gunman and you know that's why, you know
Speaker 2: he up dying. At the time, I was infuriated by
Speaker 2: that misinformation. And because Tory was a hero, he didn't
Speaker 2: need some fabricated story, which was a great shame, but
Speaker 2: it caused me personally some angst because I know what happened,
Speaker 2: and it's like but then I was aware that his
Speaker 2: family were being told this hero story which wasn't true.
Speaker 2: There was no need for.
Speaker 1: That, but to need to be told. Yeah, and like
Speaker 1: the public pouring out of sympathy and worrying about it
Speaker 1: being divisive. I've never seen a situation like that, and
Speaker 1: I've never felt an environment like that. I've done a
Speaker 1: lot of crime scenes. But after they got you out,
Speaker 1: we went there to do the crime scene, and I
Speaker 1: was saying to you the other day that when I
Speaker 1: went into the Link cafe, and we had it secured,
Speaker 1: so there were many people inside there, but what you
Speaker 1: had just described was left in situ, so we saw
Speaker 1: what had gone on. There was a feeling of fear
Speaker 1: and emotion in that building.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: You talk about premonitions, and I've tried to process what
Speaker 1: that was about, because I've been to a lot of
Speaker 1: crime scenes and some are worse than others. But I
Speaker 1: think it was because we were all watching it play
Speaker 1: out in public. Yes, and then when it resolved in
Speaker 1: such a tragic way, going in there, I could almost
Speaker 1: feel your presence, like the hostages presence. How scary it
Speaker 1: would have been in that environment at the time, I
Speaker 1: can only imagine, and sitting here and you describing what
Speaker 1: you went through and knowing the scene as well as
Speaker 1: I do. It's just a horrific, horrific thing to have
Speaker 1: been through.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's why it matters so much
Speaker 2: to the broader public, because this happened to all of us,
Speaker 2: because we weren't just you all weren't just sitting idly.
Speaker 2: You were watching the television and you were part of that.
Speaker 2: And whenever I speak about it publicly, absolutely everyone can
Speaker 2: tell me their story and I'm happy to hear their
Speaker 2: story because it's our collective story, you know, of where
Speaker 2: you were that day, what you were doing, how we
Speaker 2: were all living our ordinary lives. And then it changed.
Speaker 2: And you know, terrorism is real violence. You know, we
Speaker 2: deal with it on an every day basis.
Speaker 1: Well, brought it to the doorstep, didn't it, in a way?
Speaker 1: And I think the lead up to Christmas, like we
Speaker 1: all remember, I remember when it happened. I'm thinking, but
Speaker 1: this is inconvenient. I was seeing the sun that I
Speaker 1: hadn't seen for ages, and spending a couple of days
Speaker 1: with him, I didn't get to see him. And then
Speaker 1: the flowers, the flowers at the crime scene, I can
Speaker 1: honestly say, and I've said it to you before the interview,
Speaker 1: I've never been in a situation where one of the
Speaker 1: one of the things I had to manage was the
Speaker 1: amount of flowers and floral tributes that were put there,
Speaker 1: that was pouring out of grief by a whole city.
Speaker 2: You know, I have to tell you that because I
Speaker 2: was quite distressed about the idea of race riots in
Speaker 2: this and you know, the early days afterwards, like I'm
Speaker 2: thinking anything could happen, and talking about it with friends
Speaker 2: and family and praying about it. Like someone told me
Speaker 2: about a hashtag ride with me, and the idea that
Speaker 2: if you know, especially for Muslim women who are in
Speaker 2: their hijab, if they're on public transport, you know, that
Speaker 2: they could reach out and other women would sit with them.
Speaker 2: And that brought me deep comfort. And the flowers. The
Speaker 2: flowers were amazing and I didn't get to see the
Speaker 2: money photographs, but just knowing that that was happening. Just
Speaker 2: friends telling me about going into Martin Place and about
Speaker 2: how quiet it was and how respectful everybody was, and
Speaker 2: you know, crying and the collective distress, but just how
Speaker 2: there was such a strong sense of unity and community.
Speaker 2: I can't tell you. I'd say to people, thank you
Speaker 2: so much, you know for that, because when I was
Speaker 2: in hospital, it kind of made me just go, I
Speaker 2: can just relax here and get better, you know, there
Speaker 2: was nothing to sort of worry about because I was
Speaker 2: freaked out about that and thinking what can I do
Speaker 2: to stop something happening?
Speaker 1: You know, it was good that the city or the
Speaker 1: nation reacted reacted that way, and we taught the flowers,
Speaker 1: but the amount of people there, it was literally difficult
Speaker 1: to get into the crime soon then going backwards and
Speaker 1: forwards and people they're so respectful and.
Speaker 2: Just, and I thank our country for that, you know,
Speaker 2: makes all the difference.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a lot of pain there, physical injuries,
Speaker 1: emotional injuries. Talk us through that because you carry, so
Speaker 1: you've got to carry something.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, okay, so my physical injuries where there's a
Speaker 2: hole in my.
Speaker 1: Foot that hurts.
Speaker 2: Ah, yeah, and I've got some shrapnel in and around
Speaker 2: and the shrapnel that I got still got little fragments
Speaker 2: of strap.
Speaker 1: Sounds pretty cool. I've got some shrapnel, yeah, when you
Speaker 1: go through the right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right exactly. I say that a lot actually anyway, Yeah,
Speaker 2: so shrapnell in my foot, which is like fine pencil sharpenings.
Speaker 2: So a few things here, two things nurses. Right, So
Speaker 2: I finally we finally get in through emergency at Prince
Speaker 2: of Wales and I'm greeted by emergency nurse there and
Speaker 2: so I say to it, right, just tell me straight
Speaker 2: my foot. Do you think I'm going to lose it?
Speaker 2: And she looks at my foot and she says, I've
Speaker 2: seen worse, And in that moment, I went, that's right,
Speaker 2: don't catastrophize, Louisa, she's seen worse. It's going to be okay.
Speaker 2: So we're going through that. And then, of course I
Speaker 2: didn't realize, and this is peculiar, but I had also
Speaker 2: been hit in my belly, shrapnel in my belly, So
Speaker 2: that was really weird. And there's only recently, like about
Speaker 2: two weeks ago, that I found out that when you've
Speaker 2: got various injuries around your body, you only feel one
Speaker 2: point of pain at a time. So anyway, you know,
Speaker 2: my foot was in serious pain and I didn't even
Speaker 2: feel this in my belly. Right and so I'm with
Speaker 2: the nurse, the emergency nurse, and we've done all the doctors,
Speaker 2: have checked in this and that and blah blah.
Speaker 1: And the.
Speaker 2: Middle Eastern crime scene cops are there and we're talking
Speaker 2: and they're recording me because I'm going to ten a
Speaker 2: dozen because I'm thinking I need to tell them everything
Speaker 2: that I can remember in case I forget when I
Speaker 2: have my surgery. Blah blah. Anyway, this is all happening
Speaker 2: in the emergency room right there. And then the nurse
Speaker 2: says to me, so, Louisa, we're just going to cut
Speaker 2: off your dress, and I went no, no, no, you're not.
Speaker 2: You're not going to cut off my dress. I really
Speaker 2: like this dress. It's my best black dress. You know,
Speaker 2: go anywhere girls, we'll understand, perfect black dress for everything.
Speaker 2: We're visiting a lawyer, appropriate that I wore a black
Speaker 2: dress away. She says, yes, it's protocol. It's what we're
Speaker 2: going to like what you're going to cut off my dress?
Speaker 2: So really upset about it. And so I turned to
Speaker 2: these Middle Eastern cops, right and I say to them,
Speaker 2: you can't let her cut off my dress. And they say, whoa, no,
Speaker 2: we're not interested. Typical cops. Where's a cop when you
Speaker 2: need one? They just like, yeah, exactly. They disappeared anyway.
Speaker 2: So she starts to cut off my dress and you're
Speaker 2: going cut, cut, cutting, I'm you know, and we're going
Speaker 2: up and it's going up and over my head and
Speaker 2: then I'll help her lift it over my head. And
Speaker 2: then as I do that, I my hands and whoa,
Speaker 2: they're full of blood all over my hands and what's that?
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, what's that? And she like suddenly goes, oh, right, okay,
Speaker 2: lie down, blah blah, checking my Oh there you go.
Speaker 2: You got two yeah, shrapnel we had that little moment
Speaker 2: that nurse and she's looking at me and I'm looking
Speaker 2: at her, and she knows that I know that she
Speaker 2: was right. She had to cut off my dress and
Speaker 2: that was really great. But then then she says, I
Speaker 2: got to cut off your bra and nickers, and I'm like,
Speaker 2: no way, I just come back from America. There's a
Speaker 2: brand new right, and she's just this is what we do.
Speaker 2: And I'm thinking someone's got to do something about this.
Speaker 2: But anyway, that all said, she was right, and I
Speaker 2: had shrapnel in my belly. But then I just tell
Speaker 2: you this story. So this is what happened. So you know,
Speaker 2: when you've had surgery, the doctor comes around and visits
Speaker 2: you the next day. So I'd had surgery at about
Speaker 2: seven o'clock in the morning by the time it all
Speaker 2: was said and done, and the doctor must have come
Speaker 2: to visit me around you know, midday, one o'clock. Anyway,
Speaker 2: so she comes to visit me, and she's lovely, this doctor,
Speaker 2: and she says, oh, Louisa, And by this stage, I've
Speaker 2: got this great big water around my foot and you know,
Speaker 2: patches of different things everywhere, and she says, oh, Louisa,
Speaker 2: like this, and I went, oh, no, I did lose
Speaker 2: my foot after all, that just the way she said it.
Speaker 2: And she said, no, no, Louisa, We're so sorry, so sorry,
Speaker 2: but we couldn't get the shrap and all out of
Speaker 2: your belly. And I went, oh. She said, yes, it's
Speaker 2: about the size of a long grain blown up piece
Speaker 2: of rice and few there and we just couldn't get
Speaker 2: it out of your belly. So I said to her, seeing,
Speaker 2: you know, like she was so serious, I just said, oh, gee, doc,
Speaker 2: shame you couldn't have done little LiPo while you were
Speaker 2: down there, right, And yeah, I thought she'd laugh, and no, no,
Speaker 2: she finger and she says, Louisa, your fat saved your life.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, pardon me, what did you just say?
Speaker 2: You know, because what doctor says that?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: And she says, Louisa, if that shrapnel had gotten into
Speaker 2: your abdomen and your organ, she said, things would have
Speaker 2: been very different. So, you know, I just had that
Speaker 2: little moment in the hospital there with that doctor, and
Speaker 2: I thought to myself, my god, how many years I've
Speaker 2: been trying to lose that extra ten or so twenty kilos, right,
Speaker 2: but here it is that saved my life, you know,
Speaker 2: the very thing that I have loathed about myself.
Speaker 1: Doesn't it to chow a lesson in life?
Speaker 2: Exactly right?
Speaker 1: There's a reason who was meant to be I don't it.
Speaker 2: Never cursed to Quilo again? Ten years of freedom, not
Speaker 2: worried about needs that.
Speaker 1: Well, look a game. We laugh about it, but you've
Speaker 1: got to laugh about it like it impacts in so
Speaker 1: many ways. Now, that was shrapnel. I know. When I
Speaker 1: went through the crime scene, there was so much concern
Speaker 1: from a police point of view and trying to ascertain
Speaker 1: what went on, and concern from the tactical guys that
Speaker 1: I put up front. Heroes is a term that's used
Speaker 1: too often with policing things. They're doing a job, but
Speaker 1: in the circumstances, and I have had involvement in tactical
Speaker 1: policing in the circumstances for them to have to go
Speaker 1: into a situation like that, immediate action after what happened
Speaker 1: to Tory would be confronting. And they didn't know whether
Speaker 1: they were going in there with the bombs, and they
Speaker 1: went in there without blinking and eye when they came
Speaker 1: out and they had done their job, They've taken out
Speaker 1: the terrorist and they found out that the hostage had
Speaker 1: died Katrina in that situation, they were obviously devastated, and
Speaker 1: we had ballistics, the coroner come through the crime scene.
Speaker 1: We left it all in the in situe. Corona come
Speaker 1: through the crime scene, ballistics, and I think it was
Speaker 1: about a day later or whatever. Then the ballistics called
Speaker 1: me back to the Sydney Police Center and showed me
Speaker 1: something that he'd seen in the way that the bullets
Speaker 1: were fired and all that, and it looked like it
Speaker 1: was shrapnel from a ricochet that had hit Katrina. And
Speaker 1: we had to keep the integrity of the investigation protect
Speaker 1: that because we were doing separate things. As we've mentioned
Speaker 1: Angelo Mamolo, who did a great job running the whole investigation.
Speaker 1: And I know it was a relief to the tactical
Speaker 1: blokes that went in there that wasn't from a direct hit.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure they'd be feeling that you received shrapnel.
Speaker 1: You're the one that was in there, you know, the
Speaker 1: chaos of the situation. What's your thoughts on the police
Speaker 1: that went in that day.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, first of all, I'm astounded the hindsight
Speaker 2: that everybody has an opinion and I sort of say,
Speaker 2: you weren't really there in the moment, how can you
Speaker 2: have an opinion, But you know, that's the way it is.
Speaker 2: Everyone does have an opinion, and so in the moment.
Speaker 2: A few things about those cops, right, So the tactical guys.
Speaker 2: First of all, they were there all day. They did
Speaker 2: not There wasn't a change of shift. They were there
Speaker 2: all day. They were waiting with us, and just knowing
Speaker 2: that they were there was very comforting. But they waited
Speaker 2: in the hot sun, you know, and I just and
Speaker 2: then of course when they came in and they rescued us,
Speaker 2: which is what we'd been waiting for all day. Finally
Speaker 2: they came in, and the overwhelming insanity of being in
Speaker 2: that space. If you imagine that, it was like Hawaii
Speaker 2: five oh and one cop goes in and shoots one
Speaker 2: bullet and the bad guy's dead. And somewhere in my
Speaker 2: crazy brain, that's maybe what I thought was going to happen,
Speaker 2: But of course that's not reality, and what I didn't
Speaker 2: know until the inquest. So my opinions are informed by
Speaker 2: the inquest and what actually happened. But you know, Monas
Speaker 2: did not go down. He just did not go down,
Speaker 2: and so they had to keep shooting to take him down,
Speaker 2: and they had to keep shooting to take him down
Speaker 2: because they thought he had a bomb, and someone had
Speaker 2: mistakenly thought they saw a wire going down his shirt sleeve,
Speaker 2: a long sleeve shirt sleeve, and therefore that meant that
Speaker 2: he had some sort of button thing that but if
Speaker 2: they did not take him out, then he could pop
Speaker 2: the bomb. Right, So that makes Once I heard that
Speaker 2: information at the inquest, I suddenly understood why there was
Speaker 2: so took so long. The shooting just went on so intensely,
Speaker 2: so logically, that makes total sense to me. And I
Speaker 2: think that, you know a few things. I don't know
Speaker 2: that the general public really understand that. Actually one of
Speaker 2: the one of the tou guys was hit. Officer B
Speaker 2: was hit. Now, he was hit with shrapnel as he
Speaker 2: was coming into the cafe with monas like directly firing
Speaker 2: at that and he took shrapnel to the side of
Speaker 2: his temple. Now, for the life of me, I don't
Speaker 2: know how anyone takes, you know, effectively a bullet to
Speaker 2: the side of your temple and you don't die. He
Speaker 2: didn't die. That's miraculous. But you know, it costs these cops,
Speaker 2: you know, physically and psycho emotionally as well. They're just
Speaker 2: humans like us, right, even with all the training. But
Speaker 2: you know, so with regard to those guys from right
Speaker 2: up front, I remember, Mum and I just were poor Angela,
Speaker 2: when can we meet those guys who rescued us? Can
Speaker 2: we meet them?
Speaker 1: Please?
Speaker 2: Can we meet them? And we'd ask that every second
Speaker 2: time we spoke to him formatt anyway, But of course
Speaker 2: that's not how things work with cops. And it took
Speaker 2: me a long time before I met them or some
Speaker 2: of them, And you know, we have nothing but admiration
Speaker 2: for them and gratitude and total respect, you know, like
Speaker 2: it's it's hostages are running out right and they're running in.
Speaker 2: They're going in and my god, what kind of crazy
Speaker 2: brave does that take?
Speaker 1: Well, I know that will mean a lot to them,
Speaker 1: and the fact that you've said it to them, but
Speaker 1: it's good that said publicly. Admiration and respect and I
Speaker 1: think that's how it should be described. And they all
Speaker 1: pay a price for that. I haven't seen a police
Speaker 1: officer involved in the shooting that hasn't paid the price,
Speaker 1: one one way or the other. And it's scrutinized and
Speaker 1: it's scrutinized why people with benefit of hindsight that weren't there.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I was hearing just on the grape vine
Speaker 1: about the guys before they went in or when they
Speaker 1: were there, they were finding their families saying mightn't see
Speaker 1: them again, but they still went in.
Speaker 2: Yes, So that is that's what I mean, like, who
Speaker 2: are these people?
Speaker 1: Yeah, we are out there, and that we're lucky that
Speaker 1: they're out there. The inquest the answered some questions for it.
Speaker 1: Was it traumatical, was it beneficial in the scene, and
Speaker 1: you had Michael Barnes as the as a coroner who
Speaker 1: had a good reputation, a no nonsense type of person
Speaker 1: and probably the best person for looking into it. Where
Speaker 1: you satisfied that the questions were being answered that you
Speaker 1: needed answered.
Speaker 2: No, not really. The inquest was for me quite traumatic actually.
Speaker 2: So originally I went to the inquest to pay my
Speaker 2: respects to the families because I hadn't had a chance
Speaker 2: because I was in the hospital when that, you know,
Speaker 2: Tory and Katrina were buried. But I wanted to do that.
Speaker 2: And what happened to me was once I started to
Speaker 2: go to the inquest, I realized that this was the
Speaker 2: only way I was really ever going to know what
Speaker 2: really happened, and I certainly couldn't rely on secondhand information
Speaker 2: that one gets through the media. So I started to
Speaker 2: go every day. So I virtually went every day, not
Speaker 2: quite but virtually. It was an arduous time because it
Speaker 2: took so long that inquest, and the inquest was trying
Speaker 2: to be all things to all people. You know it really,
Speaker 2: you know, an inquest purpose is to find out the
Speaker 2: cause of death for people who've died, and there were
Speaker 2: three people who died in that siege. But of course
Speaker 2: the rest of the country was looking for something more.
Speaker 2: I mean, we were looking for what possibly if this
Speaker 2: happened again, what improvements could be made, all of that
Speaker 2: kind of thing, but also trying to understand how how
Speaker 2: did this happen? And so there I was left with
Speaker 2: several significant questions post inquest.
Speaker 1: Yeah, say what they are?
Speaker 2: Well, a few things. So, first of all, because I
Speaker 2: have connection with the New South Wales Police, I have
Speaker 2: a lot to do with them. I've spoken at several
Speaker 2: functions and different things and training and all that kind
Speaker 2: of stuff. So and I'm very grateful for that opportunity
Speaker 2: to share like that with them.
Speaker 1: And.
Speaker 2: Just as an aside to that, it absolutely takes the siege.
Speaker 2: The link siege has taken a toll on the police collectively,
Speaker 2: because without fail, whenever I've gone to share with police,
Speaker 2: someone in the room will say, Louisa, we're sorry. You know,
Speaker 2: it wasn't meant to be like this. And there's a
Speaker 2: collective grief amongst our police. And I feel for them,
Speaker 2: you know, because it's not their fault, you know. But anyway,
Speaker 2: at the inquest, it was fascinating to see how it
Speaker 2: played out. It was all done through in segments, different
Speaker 2: things about Monas and then about the cafe, and then
Speaker 2: about you know, and then about the police. So there
Speaker 2: was a lot of discussion, as there was in the media,
Speaker 2: a lot of discussion about the police and what went wrong.
Speaker 2: And we have to say things went wrong, you know,
Speaker 2: But I can say I know things have changed, you know,
Speaker 2: because of my dealings, and I'm very grateful to know
Speaker 2: that they've changed the way the negotiators work. For example,
Speaker 2: there's been significant changes there. There's been things that have
Speaker 2: come out of the lint. For example, one of the
Speaker 2: hardest things, of course was for the police dealing with
Speaker 2: the hostage survivors and families after the siege in the
Speaker 2: immediate aftermath, that was very challenging and hard for everybody.
Speaker 2: So now as I understand, the police have something called flows,
Speaker 2: which is family liaison officers who are dedicated in those
Speaker 2: kind of circumstances. For example, I imagine that would have
Speaker 2: happened for Bondai, where in those circumstances where someone's died,
Speaker 2: the families are given a one point of contact with
Speaker 2: the police they call flows. And that's a great thing
Speaker 2: because I know that it was hard, you know, because
Speaker 2: the nature of policing you can't just pop off and
Speaker 2: hold the hand of people who in trauma from an
Speaker 2: event late.
Speaker 1: I think that's great initiative that's come in, And you're
Speaker 1: quite right that has come in and there were problems
Speaker 1: there and I can speak from personal experience from that
Speaker 1: particular incident that there were so many victims, so many families,
Speaker 1: and yeah, I was doing the crime scene, but I
Speaker 1: was allocated to speak to a family and stay in
Speaker 1: contact with this hostage and things just it was on
Speaker 1: the magnitude that we didn't understand or hadn't prepared for.
Speaker 1: And having been a homicide detective for as long as
Speaker 1: I have. I know the importance of that keeping those
Speaker 1: lines of communication, and you're looking at it from a
Speaker 1: hostage victim of crime situation, the importance of having someone
Speaker 1: that you can find out what's going on or what's
Speaker 1: the processes. Who can I ask a question? And without
Speaker 1: having someone that you know you can pick the phone
Speaker 1: up and speak to, you get lost in the world.
Speaker 1: So that is a positive that's come from it. You
Speaker 1: mentioned the negotiators, and I know they got put through
Speaker 1: the ring or over what occurred there, and hopefully the
Speaker 1: improvements have played out from there, because if things happen,
Speaker 1: and I keep prefacing it with benefit the hindsight, we're
Speaker 1: all clever when we look back. But if there were
Speaker 1: mistakes made, let's own them and improve if we can.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that that's true. And that observation I
Speaker 2: made with regard to the police was seeing how they
Speaker 2: quickly got about making those improvements. It was very encouraging
Speaker 2: for me because it's really easy to be down on
Speaker 2: the police, but actually, yeah, the work they've done, you know,
Speaker 2: but it's perpetual, whether it's us individually as individuals or
Speaker 2: it is our institutions. We always always have to be
Speaker 2: on the board for improvement and changes and embrace that
Speaker 2: as hard as it can be. But you know, it wasn't.
Speaker 2: Of course, we had opportunity to give mister Barnes a
Speaker 2: victim impact statement, even though the inquest wasn't about the
Speaker 2: people who survived. They're about the people who died. So,
Speaker 2: you know, I think in hindsight there may have been
Speaker 2: we needed something that was between an inquest and a
Speaker 2: royal commission to address the entire gauntlet of what happened
Speaker 2: at the Lend. The inquest was not big enough. It
Speaker 2: was necessary, but not big enough. In our expectations were
Speaker 2: too high for what a you know, an institution or
Speaker 2: a function that the inquest could provide. So in hindsight,
Speaker 2: I hope that there'd be you know, maybe it doesn't
Speaker 2: need necessarily a royal commission, but it needs something that's
Speaker 2: just a little bit bigger. I don't know, not being
Speaker 2: a legal person, but so you know, I sort.
Speaker 1: Of okay, parliamentary inquiry or something. And I understand what
Speaker 1: you're saying, and you obviously understand the nature of inquest,
Speaker 1: the parameters of a narrow manic cause and time and
Speaker 1: location of death. That's yes, really what the coroner is
Speaker 1: there to put them. Maybe the expectations were going to
Speaker 1: look wider, yes, than what they had the power to do.
Speaker 1: Any other things that have flowed on from your experience
Speaker 1: what you're doing now, And yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, the inquest led me a bit gobsmacked,
Speaker 2: not being a legal person to understand what was happening
Speaker 2: with the DPP And in actual fact, I still don't
Speaker 2: know why. We don't know why man Heroon Monus was
Speaker 2: even out on bail. That man had approximately forty three
Speaker 2: different sexual assault charges against him. So why is a
Speaker 2: man with forty three different sexual assaults even out on
Speaker 2: bail that he could then commit the lent atrocity? So,
Speaker 2: you know, like that is a big question for me.
Speaker 2: We've not looked there. We've been so busy looking at
Speaker 2: the police. We didn't turn our minds to looking about
Speaker 2: why he was really out on bail. It was discussed,
Speaker 2: but it was hedged. There's a funny little legal thing
Speaker 2: that happened at the inquest that I don't really understand.
Speaker 2: It's a mystery to me. But you know, there's something
Speaker 2: called client confidentiality, So of course in this instance, the
Speaker 2: police were the clients of the DPP. So therefore there's
Speaker 2: a client confidentiality that's right, exactly privilege. So however, the police,
Speaker 2: in the spirit of the inquest, said that they were
Speaker 2: happy to negate that or surrender that privilege and just
Speaker 2: let everything out. However, the DPP chose to not do that.
Speaker 2: They insisted that client confidentiality be held. So I was
Speaker 2: confused about why an institution like the DPP that's there
Speaker 2: to look after us, one would think why they would
Speaker 2: do that and why we could not dig in a
Speaker 2: little deeper and understand what was it that allowed that
Speaker 2: man to be out on bail? So was there an
Speaker 2: issue with a judiciary? I mean, excuse me, God forbid
Speaker 2: that I should question them? What do I know? But
Speaker 2: you know, seriously, if we're going to be transparent, if
Speaker 2: we're going to actually suck the guts out of what
Speaker 2: happened in that search situation and get whatever benefit we
Speaker 2: possibly can, then surely we must be brave enough to
Speaker 2: ask those questions.
Speaker 1: Well, Louisa, and I'll say this in a general sense
Speaker 1: because I'm a coward and I won't be specific, but
Speaker 1: you know, when it comes to legal systems looking at
Speaker 1: themselves or critiquing themselves. There's a certain what I call
Speaker 1: intellectual arrogance that comes about that. Why would you dare
Speaker 1: question what we do? And so I think that plays
Speaker 1: out and I'm talking in a general sense, but it's
Speaker 1: a fair question. You ask what man Monus was doing
Speaker 1: out on bail, because when the incident happened, when it
Speaker 1: very first hit the news, we're in the homicide office
Speaker 1: and one of the young female detectives said that's man
Speaker 1: Monas were charged him in relation to the murder of
Speaker 1: his ex partner, and that's where he was identified first.
Speaker 1: So there are a lot of questions. And I suppose
Speaker 1: you're the victim of these actions, and so I think
Speaker 1: you've got to write the question. But yeah, when they're
Speaker 1: looking in the into the court systems, and look, I
Speaker 1: take it you're a person that respects the court system.
Speaker 1: I do too. We've got to have a system. But again,
Speaker 1: if it can be improved, let's improve it. Then it's
Speaker 1: very easy. It's almost like a sport beating up on
Speaker 1: the police, and police are robust enough to accept that.
Speaker 1: But if the problems are external to the police, maybe
Speaker 1: we should look at that as well.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I would hope, you know, we are ten
Speaker 2: years now since the Lint and we have not moved
Speaker 2: on this issue, and one wonders, you know, what is
Speaker 2: this about? Who doesn't take sexual assault seriously enough to
Speaker 2: keep someone like that in prison? So we have you know,
Speaker 2: imagine if we'd learned that lesson at the LINT. You know, serious,
Speaker 2: this kind of crime is.
Speaker 1: The potential consequences from exactly.
Speaker 2: Okay, So you know, I am keen about that. If
Speaker 2: there's ever anyone who who's brave enough to stand up
Speaker 2: and start to ask those questions, I'm just you know, nobody,
Speaker 2: and I have no legal skill, but I think it's
Speaker 2: still out there. It hangs in the air for us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I wouldn't. I'm not going to agree with
Speaker 1: you on being that nobody. You're articulating the horrific experience
Speaker 1: you've been through with some genuine emotions, but consideration for
Speaker 1: everyone involved, not just yourself, and that says a lot
Speaker 1: about you. Are you advocating for anything else, you do
Speaker 1: anything else on the back of what your experience is?
Speaker 2: So you know, I'm like so blessed, Like I said,
Speaker 2: you know, like I really had that euphoric experience, and
Speaker 2: that has to do with the fact that we started
Speaker 2: the Luis a Hope fun for nurses at Prince of
Speaker 2: Wal's Hospital back then, and that was my involvement with
Speaker 2: the nurses is happy. I'm so happy. It's like a privilege,
Speaker 2: so privileged to be involved with nurses. The incredible nurses
Speaker 2: could rule the world. I'm just saying anyway. But of
Speaker 2: course now I'm more directly involved with something called VOTER,
Speaker 2: which is Victims of Terror Australia, which is for citizens
Speaker 2: of Australia and New Zealand to come together with regard
Speaker 2: who have survived terrorist attacks, to be a support group
Speaker 2: for each other. So we've been working very hard on that.
Speaker 2: So the launch has just happened recently and so I'm
Speaker 2: very excited about that. For you know, this is when
Speaker 2: you are a victim of terror, you become the state
Speaker 2: because the terrorist is not interested in you as an individual.
Speaker 2: They're hitting the state and so it's completely different actually
Speaker 2: to other acts of violence. So the expectation on you
Speaker 2: is different and a whole lot of different things. But
Speaker 2: so therefore, how we help and support thevictims of terror
Speaker 2: and let's face it, the world we live in, it's
Speaker 2: not going to stop.
Speaker 1: The link Cafe was a small incident that it might
Speaker 1: pile into insignificance in potentially what can occur when you're
Speaker 1: talking terrorism. For the support group that you're setting up,
Speaker 1: If people are interested, how do they find it?
Speaker 2: Yes, well they can find us online. You know we're
Speaker 2: at a vota voter and so victims of terror Australia
Speaker 2: they can find us there and certainly they can go
Speaker 2: to my website if they like, just to make contact
Speaker 2: because we want to reach out. We want to know
Speaker 2: other people who've been in this circumstance so that we
Speaker 2: can be supportive of each other. Myself personally, I have
Speaker 2: a very keen interest in how we can serve the
Speaker 2: broader community and for those who have been victims and
Speaker 2: survivors can then reach out and speak into the community
Speaker 2: with regard to these kind of things for our social
Speaker 2: cohes and our multicultural nation that we are. And of
Speaker 2: course people like Jill Hicks, brilliant, amazing Australian, South Australian,
Speaker 2: she was in the London bombing attacks, So you know
Speaker 2: people like Jill and of course the amazing Alpha Chang and.
Speaker 1: Different people amazing that's.
Speaker 2: Right, and so you think, well this has happened to me,
Speaker 2: what do you do with it? You know, all things
Speaker 2: in life have a reason, I believe, and so therefore,
Speaker 2: what do you do with this experience? You can be
Speaker 2: owned by the experience, or you can own the experience
Speaker 2: and you can work out a way to turn it
Speaker 2: for good. And for me personally, that's been a blessing
Speaker 2: to be able to do that in just small ways,
Speaker 2: but you know, just to encourage other people and to
Speaker 2: not let ourselves go down down the hole and the
Speaker 2: whole of course is racial hatred and all of that
Speaker 2: kind of division. Australia is not that kind of place.
Speaker 2: But I mean we have to actively and deliberately make
Speaker 2: a way to do not be that place, because be
Speaker 2: very easy to be convinced to be fearful or angry.
Speaker 2: But you know, actually, no, we can be another way,
Speaker 2: we can be our true selves.
Speaker 1: You know, well, I am not going to add to
Speaker 1: that because I can't. I can't deliver it as articulately
Speaker 1: as you had. And I've just got to say, like
Speaker 1: you inspire me to be through what you've been through
Speaker 1: and come out with this attitude and the way that
Speaker 1: you're approaching life. Louise, I hope you're a good person.
Speaker 1: You are a good person. I've really enjoyed the chat.
Speaker 1: You have taken me into something, into a situation that
Speaker 1: a deeply personal situation. But I think anyone that's listening's
Speaker 1: got a now clearer idea of what went on in
Speaker 1: those sixteen hours of terror and the horror of it.
Speaker 1: But I also think they'll find some inspiration in the
Speaker 1: way that you've coped with what you've been through and
Speaker 1: what you're focusing on now. So it's been an absolute
Speaker 1: pleasure having you on Eye Catch Killers. Thank you, cheers well.
Speaker 1: Louisa took us right inside the linked cafe suage. That
Speaker 1: was her explaining what happened in there and the emotions
Speaker 1: as she went through the highs and layers, thinking she
Speaker 1: was going to be killed, thinking that's the last moment
Speaker 1: in her life just really blew me away. But more
Speaker 1: importantly is her attitude for what she came out after
Speaker 1: being a hostage in the terrorst situation and the outlook
Speaker 1: she has on life. I think she's a really beautiful
Speaker 1: lady and I love talking to her.