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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys, staid,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with Louisa Hope,

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Speaker 1: a person who lived through the horror of being a

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Speaker 1: hostage during the Limp siege. Louis are welcome back. Thank

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Speaker 1: you again. I apologize. I'm going to say that the

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Speaker 1: living this to get a sense of the impact that

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Speaker 1: has on you as an individual. I think so people

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Speaker 1: can understand because you speak so clearly about your experience there.

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Speaker 1: But I asked you the other day in researching and

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Speaker 1: preparing for the podcast, so I had to look at

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Speaker 1: some old vision and watch the sixty minutes special on

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Speaker 1: the Link Cafe Siege, which you featured prominently in And

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Speaker 1: I was surprised when you said, I haven't watched it,

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Speaker 1: so you are still carrying stuff from that from the experience.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that, you know, with regards to media,

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Speaker 2: it's a very special place. And once you've once you've

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Speaker 2: given over, you've given over your true self. And of

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Speaker 2: course then the media can cut an edit and do

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Speaker 2: it they want with that, so you have to trust

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Speaker 2: them and so therefore, and of course it's just so

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Speaker 2: so embarrassing to watch yourself, don't you think, Well, listen

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Speaker 2: back and what exactly? So you know, like it's just

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Speaker 2: probably more that than the you know, the angst of it.

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Speaker 2: The interesting thing for me, of course, And I don't

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Speaker 2: know how everyone else handled it, My mother and I.

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Speaker 2: So after the siege, I was three months in hospital,

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Speaker 2: Mum was about two weeks and then we all we

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Speaker 2: lived together, my mother and I and my sister, God

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Speaker 2: bless her. She came up from the coast, left her

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Speaker 2: organic farm and came up to look after us because

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Speaker 2: actually we needed looking after, and so we were all

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Speaker 2: living together and it was obvious that Mom and I

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Speaker 2: were having a very different experience. So which really when

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Speaker 2: it comes to kind of the case study of these

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Speaker 2: kind of things, that would have been interesting, you know,

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Speaker 2: at the time to sort of follow our different paths.

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Speaker 2: But for me, post siege, I feel like I had

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Speaker 2: a post trauma euphoria in that. I mean, I was

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Speaker 2: just so gob smacked an Amazer didn't die. I was

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Speaker 2: just like just overwhelming gratitude and I just sort of

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Speaker 2: went up. So, you know, it was about year eight

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Speaker 2: before I realized that actually I was experiencing some post

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Speaker 2: traumatic symptoms and psychological challenges, and so it was until

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Speaker 2: then that I actually went and saw somebody properly about it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting, and we'll talk a little bit more

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Speaker 1: about the impact that they had on you, your mum, and

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Speaker 1: everyone else later. Getting back to the siege, I think

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Speaker 1: where we left off in part one, that the two

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Speaker 1: girls had escaped, and the collectively as a group, you

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Speaker 1: managed to talk momus around into not believing what's been

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Speaker 1: reported in the media and potentially placated the situation to

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Speaker 1: the fact that he didn't kill a hostage like he

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Speaker 1: threatened to if anyone else escaped. We're now getting to

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Speaker 1: know it started in the morning, starting to get dark.

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Speaker 1: I think in Thissu came he was getting agitated that

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Speaker 1: the street lights were on. Talk us through that and

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Speaker 1: what the tension was in the room as you like,

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Speaker 1: you set your sights on things, if I can just

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Speaker 1: get through this day, but when the day is starting

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Speaker 1: to turn into night, what how you feeling as an

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Speaker 1: individual and what did you feel like the atmosphere of

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Speaker 1: the group was.

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Speaker 2: Well, we're starting to get to that point, especially as

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Speaker 2: nights started to come in. But we're definitely getting to

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Speaker 2: that stage. You know, we're still trying everything. Like at

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Speaker 2: one stage someone said, let's try Al Jaz's. We're trying

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Speaker 2: Eljaz's and let's try you know, CEE and.

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Speaker 1: All the international kits to the media.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So we're still trying to do that, knowing

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Speaker 2: that they would be starting to wake up around that time,

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Speaker 2: and we're still trying BBC the whole night, whole nine yards.

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Speaker 2: Really it was everybody. We're trying and so becoming increasingly challenging,

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Speaker 2: and of course by then the negotiators were ringing us. Police,

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Speaker 2: negotiators were ringing us, and hostages were speaking to them

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Speaker 2: and with you know, little bits and things that he

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Speaker 2: wanted during the day, and so there was that, and

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Speaker 2: hostages were, you know, trying to speak to the negotiators

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Speaker 2: and placate him and just kind of try and keep

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Speaker 2: things on an even keel. But of course the nights

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Speaker 2: pressing in now, and one of the things that started

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Speaker 2: to happen was he started to get agitated about the lights.

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Speaker 2: So of course in Martin Place it was nearly Christmas,

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Speaker 2: so there was a giant Christmas tree and all the

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Speaker 2: lights on the Christmas tree, and then they're worth the

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Speaker 2: pedestrian lights, which is funny how you hear them. They're

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Speaker 2: louder at nighttime than they are during the day. So

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Speaker 2: he's starting to say things like I want to get

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Speaker 2: the lights turned off. So we're ringing the negotiators, We're

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Speaker 2: trying to get through to them. At one stage we

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Speaker 2: rang the number that the negotiators had given us, and

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Speaker 2: of course nobody answered that was a little bit peculiar.

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Speaker 1: So just hold it there and we'll get back to that.

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Speaker 1: But just clarifying speaking to them go shaders, so on

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Speaker 1: your mobile phones making contact with the GA Shaders and

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Speaker 1: momus was happy for you to talk to them the

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Speaker 1: GA Shaders. Yeah, I was on speaker phone? Was it

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Speaker 1: so he could hear what was being said?

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Speaker 2: That's right?

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Speaker 1: And what type of communications were being had.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, it was peculiar speaking with them, I've

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Speaker 2: got to say. So. They so we were asking for

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Speaker 2: things like the lights to be turned off, and at

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Speaker 2: one stage, one of the negotiators we're saying, you know,

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Speaker 2: we asked a while ago these lights. One of them,

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Speaker 2: he wants the lights turned off. And the chat we

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Speaker 2: were speaking to at the moment in the moment, I

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Speaker 2: can't remember what their name was, but he said, well,

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Speaker 2: it's not just straightforward to get the lights turned off.

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Speaker 2: And we're all like, what, you know, how hard could

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Speaker 2: that possibly be? You know, really, in this moment, whoever

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Speaker 2: turns off the lights should be right there on the spot,

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Speaker 2: but apparently not. So there was a lot of that

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Speaker 2: kind of thing going on, and you know, the police

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Speaker 2: were getting no closer to speaking to him personally. He

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Speaker 2: was definitely not going to speak to them personally. He used,

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Speaker 2: you know, different ones of the women to speak to them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So he refused to speak directly to that's

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Speaker 1: current place. Yes, all right, we've got the situation with

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Speaker 1: the lights. As I understand that, the lights became an

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Speaker 1: issue where he became agitated to the point where he said,

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Speaker 1: if the lights aren't turned off in fifteen minutes, someone's

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Speaker 1: going to die. Yeah, that was what was the atmosphere

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Speaker 1: like then.

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Speaker 2: That was very tense and quite distressing, and you know

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Speaker 2: the so that like raises the bar again and yeah,

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Speaker 2: so of course it's making all of us. We're fatiguing

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Speaker 2: as well. The day's going on and everyone's getting anxious

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Speaker 2: and tired and more so, you know, thinking that here

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Speaker 2: we are. In my head, I personally was thinking, well,

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Speaker 2: we've missed the other opportunities. Okay, probably what the police

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Speaker 2: will do was aim for that, you know, that three

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Speaker 2: am time where everybody everyone's circadian rhythms, you know, up

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Speaker 2: and down, and maybe they'll come in then. So I

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Speaker 2: sort of thought to myself, Okay, I don't know what

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Speaker 2: time it is, but we've got a little way to

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Speaker 2: go yet. Then they're definitely going to come in then, right.

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Speaker 2: So that was just generally, but of course the other

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Speaker 2: thing was was that people were collectively getting discouraged that

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Speaker 2: there'd been no police and there was no give on

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Speaker 2: behalf of the police. Earlier on in the siege, there

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Speaker 2: had been a armored truck you know, collect the money,

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Speaker 2: parked out the front, and he said he wanted that moved.

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Speaker 2: So the police had arranged for that to be moved quickly,

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Speaker 2: which was a good thing. But as time went by

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Speaker 2: and of course things changed, it went from being a

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Speaker 2: situation to being a terrorist event. So from that point

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Speaker 2: of view, I know that it changed within the police,

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Speaker 2: and of course that meant that we don't negotiate with terrorists,

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Speaker 2: and so there was no negotiation.

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Speaker 1: So that was Yeah, from your point of view, is

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Speaker 1: a hostage point of view? Was there and collectively as

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Speaker 1: a group you can talk on behalf of the group

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Speaker 1: if you feel comfortable. Was there some frustration?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, because it just from our point of view being

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Speaker 2: in the room, we knew that if he was just

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Speaker 2: given a little bit of you know, grace for one

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Speaker 2: of a better word, but a little bit of room,

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Speaker 2: you know, and to feel like he's had a little win,

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Speaker 2: then maybe you know, he'll be plicated once again. So

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Speaker 2: we were looking for that and to therefore wait then

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Speaker 2: that little bit longer for when the police come in,

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Speaker 2: so you know, and avoid somebody being killed. So that

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Speaker 2: was where we were collectively at. I think it's fair to.

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Speaker 1: Say, well, the people talking to the police, highlighting the

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Speaker 1: fact that yeah, this is very real, like someone's going

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Speaker 1: to die. Was like I can imagine if I was

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Speaker 1: at the end of the phone, not as a police officer,

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Speaker 1: as a whole, I'd be making the point very clear.

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Speaker 1: Hate listen to what I'm saying. Is that the type

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Speaker 1: of conversation that was flowing.

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Speaker 2: Definitely, you know, So that was you know, people were

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Speaker 2: beginning to become very vocal and frustrated with dealing with

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Speaker 2: the police, especially you know, that time when the number

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Speaker 2: that we've been given was not answered. And then one

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Speaker 2: of the girls I know went on to ring one

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Speaker 2: of the local it was either a radio station or

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Speaker 2: television station. I can't recall which, but she rang, and

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Speaker 2: God love, I'm the poor woman who answered the phone said,

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Speaker 2: I can't do anything for you've got a number, ring

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Speaker 2: the number, and you know, our girl in the room says,

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Speaker 2: we've rung the number, but they don't answer, you know,

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Speaker 2: And so the frustration was across the board, you know, foolishly,

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Speaker 2: I had thought in the moment that the police would

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Speaker 2: have had cops placed amongst all the you know, local

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Speaker 2: media outlets and sort of listening in and conversation. I

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Speaker 2: don't know why I thought that there'd be that level

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Speaker 2: of a sophistication in this situation, but I did, and

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Speaker 2: I thought that there'd be a cross all to that.

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Speaker 2: And so I really feel for the woman who answered

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Speaker 2: the phone at the random media outlet, sort of the

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Speaker 2: pressure that she must have felt. You know, I can't

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Speaker 2: do anything for you ring the number that the police

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Speaker 2: have given you, and you know, so it was this

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Speaker 2: kind of looping.

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Speaker 1: What was going on? So you were given a number

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Speaker 1: or when I say you, I'm talking collectively as hostages

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Speaker 1: and moms for that matter, given the number that if

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Speaker 1: you need to speak to us, we're on this number.

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Speaker 1: That's right, and the number is fine, Then that didn't

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Speaker 1: answer that's right.

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Speaker 2: So you know, I understand, you know, in hindsight, having

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Speaker 2: having gone to the inquest, that the reason for that

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Speaker 2: was that there was some sort of a collective handover

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Speaker 2: meeting at the time at the time that we made

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Speaker 2: that call, so there was nobody actually in their situation

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Speaker 2: room to answer the call, which was unfortunate.

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Speaker 1: Really, I go as far and I'm a police officer,

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Speaker 1: and I make mistakes like we all do, but that's

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Speaker 1: not unfortunate. That's unforgivable. But in the chaos of it,

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Speaker 1: hindsight's a wonderful thing. So I'm not going to judge him.

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Speaker 1: But I think you've been very kind saying unfortunate. It

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Speaker 1: shouldn't happen. And we've talked off Mike, and we'll talk

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Speaker 1: further about it. Lessons that need to be learned, and

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Speaker 1: we can all always improve. But the one thing that

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Speaker 1: should have priority is the hot line straight to what's

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Speaker 1: going on in the seage the fifteen minutes the lights

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Speaker 1: turned off. Were they turned off in the fifteen minutes?

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Speaker 1: I would imagine as it was getting dark, tensions arising. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: you've indicated that the place when everyone's a little bit

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Speaker 1: tired around about the three am mark. Let's not give

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Speaker 1: away police methodology, but they might come in there. But

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Speaker 1: I would imagine also as it got dark, you've been

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Speaker 1: through the whole day and thinking, Okay, they're waiting for

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Speaker 1: it to get dark, then they're going to make the move.

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Speaker 1: All the lights will go off and the police will

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Speaker 1: come storm in in the building.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. You know, that was starting to become

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Speaker 2: the place of hope that you know it's going to happen.

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Speaker 2: It's got to happen soon. But it was just sort

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Speaker 2: of what was becoming obvious amongst the collective was that

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Speaker 2: we were running out of options. We'd run out of

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Speaker 2: options for media. He was concerned that he at one

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Speaker 2: stage had said that he'd release a hostage in good faith.

246
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Speaker 2: There was even a discussion about who that should be.

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Speaker 2: And you know, the fact of the matter is, with

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Speaker 2: all of that happening, he then was hesitant to release

249
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Speaker 2: this hostage because he said he couldn't rely on the

250
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Speaker 2: media to tell people that he had done that in

251
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Speaker 2: good faith. So, yeah, that didn't happen obviously, and so

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Speaker 2: all of that, So all these discussions and negotiations and

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Speaker 2: considerations about who should be released and who should it

254
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Speaker 2: was just intense. So at one point at the Inquest,

255
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Speaker 2: they were saying things were settling down in the stronghold,

256
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Speaker 2: which of course is what they call the cafe, but

257
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Speaker 2: the opposite was actually true. Things were building. The tension

258
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Speaker 2: was building ad because we knew that we'd run out

259
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Speaker 2: of options. We could not get this media attention that

260
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Speaker 2: we had been trying to get for him all day.

261
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Speaker 2: So where does he go?

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Speaker 1: Now?

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Speaker 2: What do we do?

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Speaker 1: And what you said? Then, again with the benefit of

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Speaker 1: hindsight and from what came out in the inquest, is

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Speaker 1: I understand that how it was reported that there was

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Speaker 1: a perception within the police and the people that have

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Speaker 1: been relying on to give an opinion that it's going

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Speaker 1: to settle down, they'll settle down overnight. But what you're

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Speaker 1: saying it was completely the opposite. He was getting agitated.

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Speaker 1: You guys were getting agitated and the tension was rising

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Speaker 1: in the stronghold.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, That's how it really was. And so

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Speaker 2: you know, like, of course, no one's screaming or shouting,

275
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Speaker 2: and if they were observing from the outside, they just

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Speaker 2: think it was quiet in there, and all of the

277
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Speaker 2: lights were off inside the cafe, so you know, but

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Speaker 2: that was a wrong assumption.

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Speaker 1: Definitely an assumption. Think when there's only one terrorist in there,

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Speaker 1: one person controlling that that person's going to it's just

281
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Speaker 1: going to stay awake the whole night, which is possible,

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Speaker 1: but obviously it starts to get weary.

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Speaker 2: That's right, You've got to assume that, you know.

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Speaker 1: He wouldn't have thought that's going to go I'm going

285
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Speaker 1: to be sitting up all night trying to sort this out.

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Speaker 2: No, that's right. I mean, you know, like the night

287
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Speaker 2: makes you tired, doesn't it. And so yes, of course

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Speaker 2: what was the plan?

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Speaker 1: We didn't know. Did you settle down at any particular

290
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Speaker 1: point in time? Was there a time you're sitting, standing

291
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Speaker 1: or laying on the floor. Did you at one point

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Speaker 1: in time go well, it's just whatever's going to happen

293
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Speaker 1: is going to happen.

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Speaker 2: No, well, that certainly towards you know, is that the

295
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Speaker 2: nights creeping on there. It was definitely we I think

296
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Speaker 2: I could say we were feeling the collective nowhere else

297
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Speaker 2: to go, you know, a sense amongst us, and it

298
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Speaker 2: was like, well what happens now? So there's a certain

299
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Speaker 2: sense being you know, reduced to that and being left

300
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Speaker 2: with that, well what can we do now? Like so

301
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Speaker 2: that had a certain sense of heaviness about it, but

302
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Speaker 2: it was not a settling because there was still discussion

303
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Speaker 2: going on, and still he was then become busy thinking.

304
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Speaker 2: You know, we could tell that he was trying to

305
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Speaker 2: work out what to do and then and then he

306
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Speaker 2: says to the young went workers to get us our

307
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Speaker 2: tea food once again, weird, So you know we did that,

308
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Speaker 2: had tea and food.

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Speaker 1: Okay, take us through till sort of midnight. What's the

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Speaker 1: next significant thing that took place.

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Speaker 2: Well, then then we're all sitting around looking at each

312
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Speaker 2: other in a way with not knowing what else to do,

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Speaker 2: and we've had some food and drink. And he then

314
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Speaker 2: gets to the point where he see all during the

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Speaker 2: whole day there were noises in the cafe, just ordinary

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Speaker 2: noises in a cafe, but they they rattled him. He

317
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Speaker 2: was like, what's that, you know, thinking it's the police

318
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Speaker 2: and all that kind of thing. So there was the

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Speaker 2: noise of the ice making machine in the cafe, and

320
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Speaker 2: it just kind of goes cla cathud, you know, every

321
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Speaker 2: hour on the hour, and there's the noises from the

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Speaker 2: industrial fridges. So there's all these noises, and every time

323
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Speaker 2: the ice machine went, we all just went, it's the

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00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,919
Speaker 2: ice machine, you know, relaxed. Yeah, that's right, so you know,

325
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Speaker 2: but we all got used to those noises, and of

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Speaker 2: course they're louder in the nighttime. And he heard this

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Speaker 2: noise and he wasn't sure, and he decided that he

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Speaker 2: wanted to go to the cafe himself, sorry, Gosh, to

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Speaker 2: go into the kitchen himself. And so that's what he

330
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Speaker 2: decided he was going to do. He was going to

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Speaker 2: go into the kitchen and investigate the noise. What was

332
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Speaker 2: the noise? So there we all are, we're in the cafe,

333
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Speaker 2: just broadly sitting around together, and he says, right, we're

334
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Speaker 2: going to go you. He points to Selena and Fiona,

335
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Speaker 2: mar and Jared, so three hostages, and he says, we're

336
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Speaker 2: going into the kitchen. He put the two girls in

337
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Speaker 2: front of him, then him, then Jared. I think that's correct.

338
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Speaker 2: And he starts to walk towards the kitchen. Okay, and

339
00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:14,919
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, right, you paying attention now, this is different.

340
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Speaker 2: He's not done this the whole days. Unusual. Okay, then

341
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:19,480
Speaker 2: what's where's he going? What's he going to do?

342
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Speaker 1: So, and the kitchen is divided from the cafe, so

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Speaker 1: when he's walking into the kitchen, you guys are out

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Speaker 1: the side, when he's out the site of view.

345
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Speaker 2: Exactly on your own, yeah, effectively, So we're walking and

346
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Speaker 2: then he randomly says he's on his way in a line.

347
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Speaker 2: Everyone's walking in a line towards the kitchen, watching and thinking,

348
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Speaker 2: and then he says to Jared Young Jared Morton Hoffmann.

349
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Speaker 2: He says, you mind the door. Mind the door. And

350
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Speaker 2: that's the door that goes between the back of the

351
00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,040
Speaker 2: cafe and the vestabile area for the rest of the building,

352
00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:53,520
Speaker 2: and that's a glass door where the young girls had

353
00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:57,840
Speaker 2: escaped through. Okay, mind the door, Jared. And I'm thinking

354
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Speaker 2: as if jared'skind of mind the doorway, and then he

355
00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,080
Speaker 2: says he keeps walking with the two girls. Now at

356
00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,440
Speaker 2: that stage, I majorly started to panic. I'm sitting there

357
00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,399
Speaker 2: in my chair, you know, like everyone's around, and I go,

358
00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:11,560
Speaker 2: oh my god, what's going to happen? He's going to

359
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:12,879
Speaker 2: take them to the kitchen. What's he going to do?

360
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:14,520
Speaker 2: Is he going to kill one of them? Or is

361
00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:16,000
Speaker 2: it going to be something worse? What is he going

362
00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,200
Speaker 2: to do to those two girls? And he's walking towards

363
00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:20,040
Speaker 2: the kitchen. And of course, by then, Gary, I'm in

364
00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:24,040
Speaker 2: a mad, frantic panic because I'm thinking what's going to happen? Right?

365
00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:26,440
Speaker 2: So in that moment, I just closed my eyes really

366
00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:29,359
Speaker 2: tight and I started to pray, like a crazy woman, like, God,

367
00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:31,600
Speaker 2: are you here? Are you watching? Can you see what's happening?

368
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:33,679
Speaker 2: Those girls are going to die? What's going to happen?

369
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,800
Speaker 2: And then all of a sudden, there's big bang and

370
00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,600
Speaker 2: I opened my eyes and literally all of my fellow

371
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:45,639
Speaker 2: hostages that were sitting right there had gone, and I went, oh, okay,

372
00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:48,560
Speaker 2: we're going right, So I stood up, and then of

373
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,679
Speaker 2: course Tory Johnson and my mother was sitting behind me

374
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:53,840
Speaker 2: on the bench seat really close to me. So I

375
00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,960
Speaker 2: get up and I go towards the door and I

376
00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,439
Speaker 2: think the others have gone. What's happened? Blah blah, And

377
00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:03,280
Speaker 2: I'm on my way towards the door anyway, Tory and

378
00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,439
Speaker 2: Mom are not moving, so I'm trying to because I

379
00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:08,199
Speaker 2: didn't have my glasses on and it was dark in

380
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,439
Speaker 2: the cafe, and I'm trying to come on, come with me,

381
00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:12,280
Speaker 2: you know, I'm indicating for them to come with me.

382
00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,159
Speaker 2: They're not moving. So I'm going towards the door and

383
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:19,320
Speaker 2: I'm literally nearly at the door, and I went, what

384
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,119
Speaker 2: am I going to do? I can't leave without Mum.

385
00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,320
Speaker 2: And I literally spun around on one leg, you know,

386
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:26,280
Speaker 2: because I haven't got a walking stick or anything, you know,

387
00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:30,400
Speaker 2: and I'm literally did that, and I thought, I can't

388
00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,440
Speaker 2: leave my mother, So you know, I didn't know what

389
00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:35,040
Speaker 2: to do. So I just lay down on the floor

390
00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:37,760
Speaker 2: and put my arms out and I thought he's going

391
00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:39,240
Speaker 2: to come and kill me because I'm not in the

392
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,480
Speaker 2: spot that he left me in. And I thought, definitely,

393
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:47,440
Speaker 2: this is it dying today. And you know, I had

394
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:49,840
Speaker 2: a whole lot of different thoughts, but in the moment,

395
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,880
Speaker 2: it was like, oh, well, here we go. But within

396
00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,280
Speaker 2: seconds he was over the top of me. He grabbed

397
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,080
Speaker 2: me by my brass strap through the back of my

398
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,080
Speaker 2: dress and hauled me up. And I'm a bit dodgy

399
00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:05,320
Speaker 2: on my feet, you know, And so his panicked is

400
00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:08,000
Speaker 2: absolutely in a frantic panic state, and he didn't know

401
00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,000
Speaker 2: whether to sit me or stand you know what. He

402
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,280
Speaker 2: sit here. No, he just was so confused. And then

403
00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,479
Speaker 2: in the end he says, and he walks a bit

404
00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:18,119
Speaker 2: closer out into the middle of the cafe and closer

405
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,400
Speaker 2: to the front door, and he says, you stand here

406
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,080
Speaker 2: on my right side. And then he says to Mum,

407
00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:25,280
Speaker 2: you come here, and he places her on his right side,

408
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,560
Speaker 2: which is the kitchen side, and then he calls to

409
00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:32,320
Speaker 2: Tory Johnson and he says, you manager, come here, kneel

410
00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:34,760
Speaker 2: down and put your hands on your head. So of

411
00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:39,080
Speaker 2: course that was like, you know, because what's that, that's

412
00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:43,119
Speaker 2: execution position. Like it was just terrifying in the moment,

413
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:47,399
Speaker 2: and by then you can imagine I don't know how

414
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,760
Speaker 2: the mum was, but I absolutely was dropping with adrenaline

415
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:56,160
Speaker 2: and you know, just totally freaked out and thinking what's

416
00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:57,560
Speaker 2: going to happen, what's going to happen. He's going to

417
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,760
Speaker 2: kill Tory? And then he starts to shuffle, and he's

418
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,000
Speaker 2: shuffling where he's standing, he's got he's holding his gun

419
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 2: up and he's scanning the front door and he's scanning, assuming,

420
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,520
Speaker 2: as we were, that the police were coming, and so

421
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,320
Speaker 2: he's doing that scan thing. Then he actually drops down

422
00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:15,520
Speaker 2: into one of the pockets on his cargo pants and

423
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,200
Speaker 2: pulls out more bullets and I watch him put them

424
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,600
Speaker 2: into the gun and then he's doing the scanning thing,

425
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,320
Speaker 2: and he's just and I'm thinking he's gonna kill Tori

426
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,320
Speaker 2: and then bang, But what he does is shoots up

427
00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:30,560
Speaker 2: into the right hand side of the ceiling. So it's

428
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,239
Speaker 2: like he didn't kill Tory. You know, he didn't kill him.

429
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 2: It was like like this overwhelming relief. And then and

430
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,560
Speaker 2: then he goes back to scanning and we're waiting, where

431
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:47,880
Speaker 2: are the police? When are they coming in to rescue us?

432
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 2: And you know, so he's scanning the room again and

433
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,240
Speaker 2: he's going through the same motions, and the next minute

434
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,040
Speaker 2: he knows, he does the same thing. He shuffles, puts

435
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 2: the gun up to his shoulder and then he goes bang,

436
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 2: and this time he shot Tory and Tory just fell

437
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,679
Speaker 2: forward and he fell forward and he had his hands

438
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 2: I could see still on the back of his head

439
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,919
Speaker 2: and he just fell forward, you know. And in that

440
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:14,200
Speaker 2: moment you think or maybe he just hit him in

441
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,520
Speaker 2: the shoulder, you know, maybe he didn't kill him. Maybe

442
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 2: he just ted his shoulder and he's just gone forward,

443
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:21,119
Speaker 2: and you know, as he went down, the table bounced

444
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,359
Speaker 2: to hit the leg of the table, and it was

445
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:29,959
Speaker 2: just like I couldn't believe that had I just couldn't

446
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 2: believe that he had killed him was dead. I just

447
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,320
Speaker 2: was overwhelmed with the shock of it, and it was

448
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:42,439
Speaker 2: unbelievable in the moment, and the overwhelming physical sense of

449
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:49,199
Speaker 2: adrenaline and fear and terror was just so intense and

450
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 2: then what, well, then where the police. The police have

451
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,200
Speaker 2: got to come now, but they didn't. Now I can't

452
00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,720
Speaker 2: tell you the minutes that that took for them to come,

453
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,440
Speaker 2: but it just was so we're waiting and I'm thinking,

454
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,159
Speaker 2: what's next. Well, it's only Mum and I that he

455
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 2: doesn't know that, you know, Marsia is still in the room,

456
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 2: or Katrina for that matter. I didn't know Katrina was

457
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 2: still in the room. So we're looking and I'm thinking,

458
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,080
Speaker 2: this is it. He'll take kill Mum or I or

459
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,199
Speaker 2: both of us together. So you know, it was just

460
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 2: sort of like so overwhelming, and we're waiting and waiting

461
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,199
Speaker 2: for the police to come. And it was like a

462
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 2: car accident, you know, when it's happened so fast but

463
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,120
Speaker 2: slow at the same time. So we're in that sort

464
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 2: of scenario and it just was so intense. And then

465
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,640
Speaker 2: the next minute, all this color started to fill the room,

466
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 2: and then smoke, and then it was just like this

467
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,399
Speaker 2: sort of surreal kind of thing. I'm seeing reds and

468
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 2: oranges and everything, and then smoke and then kaboom. Then

469
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 2: all the police starts to come in. They're firing and

470
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 2: they're firing and firing and all the bullets and it

471
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 2: was just incredible haze of and I'm still standing there

472
00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:02,159
Speaker 2: where he had placed me. I'm still and I'm like, oh, no,

473
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 2: what you know, well, if I just stand well, I

474
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 2: was right next to him, so close that when he

475
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 2: turned around, I could feel his backpack hitting me in

476
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,159
Speaker 2: the shoulder. And I'm hanging on for grim death, not

477
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,239
Speaker 2: wanting to fall over. And so you know this was

478
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 2: but that when the bullets started firing, I just had

479
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 2: that moment where I thought, I just stand still, one

480
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,719
Speaker 2: of those police would just come in and shoot him,

481
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,160
Speaker 2: bang dead, and then it'll all be over. But that's

482
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:30,120
Speaker 2: not what happened. And then someone called out get down,

483
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 2: get down. I don't know where or what that where

484
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 2: that come from. And then I'm thinking, well, how do

485
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 2: I get down? You know, like, and then the next

486
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 2: minute I had felt another hit and that hit knocked

487
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 2: me off and I staggered across towards the bench side

488
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 2: seat and I slid down one of the tables and

489
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 2: then I was on the ground. So and I really

490
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,159
Speaker 2: have this kind of missing piece in my memory of

491
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 2: standing and then on the ground, so I don't kind

492
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 2: of exactly know what happened, but it was just sort

493
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 2: of so intense, and all the time the bullets just

494
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 2: kept firing and firing. It kept going, and I'm lying

495
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 2: there on the floor this stage, and I looked down

496
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 2: and I suddenly noticed that the straps from my good

497
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 2: sandals are gone. And I'm thinking, oh no, my good sandals.

498
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 2: How am I going to get that fixed? Oh my god,

499
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 2: I'm going to die, you know. But like your mind,

500
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 2: you know, what do you think of? And then it's

501
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 2: just constantly, constantly, it doesn't stop. It's so intense, keeps going,

502
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 2: all these bullets and then the smoke. And then I

503
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 2: had my eyes closed, and I had my eyes closed

504
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 2: with my hands over my eyes, and I actually thought,

505
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 2: we've survived this whole day, but we're definitely going to

506
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 2: die now. I'm as a watch, you know. So I

507
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 2: took my hands away, opened my eyes and all I

508
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 2: could see was smoke. And you know, it was dark

509
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 2: in the room, and the shads of light from outside,

510
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 2: and you could see the smoke in the shards of light.

511
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 2: It was so intense. And then it was crazy and

512
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:52,160
Speaker 2: just kept going. And then all of a sudden, bank

513
00:26:52,520 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 2: stopped just stopped quiet. I was like, it stopped, and yeah,

514
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,399
Speaker 2: it was peculiar. Then there was that moment and I

515
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 2: sort of half sat up and I was feeling my

516
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 2: head and checking my and I'm thinking, I'm not ted,

517
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 2: you know, I was such a surprise. I knew that

518
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 2: my foot was something wrong with my foot because I'd

519
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 2: been through that where I was in such pain, but

520
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 2: I thought they could still firing, so I can't. They

521
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 2: don't know where he is. He's not dead, so I

522
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 2: can't scream out. So anyway, and then the next minute

523
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 2: one of the TU guys is over the top of

524
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 2: me and he's he's shouting, get up, get up, run run,

525
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 2: and I'm like, run, isn't it over? You know, run run,

526
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 2: he's saying, and I say, I can't my foot and

527
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 2: he says, well, can you hop? And he hauls me

528
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 2: up by one hand. Hop shure, man, you say, hop,

529
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:46,919
Speaker 2: I'll just hop right out here. And it was like,

530
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 2: because you know, they're pretty big and scary, those dudes, right,

531
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 2: and I know that they're the heroes, but like in

532
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 2: the moment, it was yeah, sure, So I started to

533
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 2: hop out of the cafe, you know, which is really

534
00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:58,880
Speaker 2: when I think about It must have been a sight

535
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:00,959
Speaker 2: to see, but you know, and then of course two

536
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 2: of the guys come behind me, picked me up, scooped

537
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 2: me up, took me out and put me lay me

538
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 2: on Philip Street. But it was just it's so intense.

539
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:14,679
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I haven't interrupted you because you created the

540
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 1: atmosphere as what would happen there, and you know basically

541
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 1: what you've described. Tory's been put on his knees and

542
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 1: executed in front of you, and the trauma that's associated

543
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 1: from there, and then that time delay and you're thinking

544
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 1: what's going to happen? Where does it go from there?

545
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 1: And you're standing beside this person that's just murdered someone

546
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: right in front of you, so I can understand your concern.

547
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 1: And then a police have broken windows and throwing flash

548
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 1: grenades in there to distract and create chaos. And in

549
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 1: knowing the scene and knowing the scene very well because

550
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 1: I did the crime scene is it would have been

551
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: so noisy and things would have been echoing and it

552
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 1: would have been just chaos for you. And then when

553
00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: the police have come in, I'm anticipating this still not

554
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 1: one hundred percent clarification where there's a bomb that's going

555
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 1: to go off, So there's an urgency to get you

556
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 1: out of there, that's right. So all this is going

557
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 1: through your mind at the time when you were actually

558
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 1: taken out into Martin Place or where you got out,

559
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 1: did you have time to process what you had just

560
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 1: seen and been for.

561
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 2: You know, probably not really like I, for example, like

562
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 2: I didn't know where my mother was, lost sight of

563
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 2: mum and all of that, and so I was on

564
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 2: Phillips Street, lighting on the road where they put me,

565
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 2: and it was just so silent Gary. The city was quiet,

566
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 2: really quiet, but at the same time there was boots

567
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 2: on the pavement and the running and shouting and you know,

568
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 2: things are going on and it's all happening, but it

569
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 2: was at the same time quiet, you know. And of

570
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 2: course my brain's exploded with ten trillion things, and I'm thinking,

571
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 2: oh my god, I can't believe I have survived. And

572
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 2: then my next thought is, Mum's definitely dead. Mum's definitely dead.

573
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 2: There's no way anyone could have survived that. And then

574
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, how am I going to tell my

575
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 2: brother and sister? You know that Mum was with me,

576
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 2: and you know, so your thoughts are crazy, and at

577
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 2: the same time, I'm thinking about the fact that this

578
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 2: awful thing has just happened, and how are we going

579
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 2: to get some sort of good out of what's happened?

580
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 2: Because I was freaked out about that, how are we

581
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 2: possibly going to recover as a society. And also, you know,

582
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 2: I was very mindful of like looking for that good

583
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 2: what good thing can we possibly get out of what's

584
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 2: just happened. And I was terrified really that there'd be

585
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 2: race rights in the street. I remember thinking at the time,

586
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 2: Oh man, this is going to be bad tomorrow morning. Yeah,

587
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 2: you know, like I really that was. But you think

588
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 2: when those kind of things happened that when the disaster

589
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 2: comes to you, you kind of like thinking layers. You know,

590
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 2: you're thinking with your body and you're in pain. And

591
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 2: then and I was convinced just going to lose my

592
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 2: foot because it was pretty big hole at the time.

593
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 1: Okay, so that was a bullet fragment that.

594
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, it turned out to be just a shrapnel from

595
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 2: a police bullet, and I've got shrapnel in various parts

596
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 2: of my body, had caught some in my belly, and

597
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 2: you know, just then the big one that hit my

598
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 2: foot and you know, it's funny how things work, you know.

599
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 2: But I have a walking stick and I've had that

600
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 2: for a little while and that was because of MS.

601
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 2: And I have something they call drop foot, so that

602
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 2: means that the foot doesn't quite work the way it should.

603
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 2: So I had this drop foot and it happened to

604
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 2: be my left foot. But the foot that I took

605
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 2: the shrapnel to was my left foot. So you know,

606
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 2: from my point of view, I have to say that

607
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 2: was amazing, amazing grace that I got hit in my

608
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 2: dodgy foot. I mean, if I'd been hit in my

609
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 2: right foot, yeah, we're in life much more complicated, so

610
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 2: you know. I mean it's still, you know, hideous scar

611
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 2: and quite bad, but you know, and impacts on my

612
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 2: balance and stuff, but really could have been a whole

613
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 2: lot worse.

614
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 1: And you know, yeah, what point in time did you

615
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 1: find out that your mum was safe?

616
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 2: Well, when I was on Philip Street, I started to

617
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 2: yell out, well the first thing actually I did. It

618
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 2: sounds peculiar, but had a little song and I just

619
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 2: sang amazing grace to myself. Thought nobody was around. Of course,

620
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 2: there's heaps of people.

621
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: You can do anything. You want to do, and no

622
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: one's going to cause you crazy after what you've been through.

623
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 2: But anyway, so had a little song. I was just

624
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 2: so grateful, you know. And then and then I'm lying

625
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 2: there and the pain is increasing, and then this lovely

626
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 2: lady come over. She was a policewoman and she held

627
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 2: my hand. She said, you wouldn't leave me, and she

628
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 2: had her flat flat jacket on and a helmet on

629
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 2: and everything. And then the medic came and gave me

630
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 2: some pain relief, and I said to the medic, it's

631
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 2: just my foot. Don't have to worry anything else, you know.

632
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 2: And but of course it wasn't just my foot. But anyway,

633
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 2: in the moment, and then I'm sitting there and I

634
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 2: remember saying to her, I remember saying, where's my mum?

635
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 2: And I think in the moment she actually thought I

636
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 2: was saying I want my mom, like I want my mother,

637
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 2: but actually I was saying, no, no, Mum was in the

638
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 2: cafe with me, and I just need to know where

639
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 2: she is, what's happened to her. And so of course

640
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 2: then the words going around, where where's you know, blah blah,

641
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 2: and they had taken mom out on she said a

642
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 2: blue tarp. They ran her down Martin Place because, of course,

643
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 2: what we didn't understand because I think we'd all figured

644
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 2: that there was no bomb, but the police didn't know that,

645
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 2: and so they're reacting like there's a bomb and so.

646
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 2: But anyway, so this and that, and then I was

647
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 2: just about to get into the ambulance and they said

648
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 2: we've got your mother, and I'm like, oh, thank goodness,

649
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 2: They've got her. And then I thought, what does that

650
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 2: mean They've got her to what stage she? And you know,

651
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 2: But anyway, so I went to Prince of Wale's and

652
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 2: Mum went to RPA.

653
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 1: Okay, so and you were in there for three months? Yeah, okay,

654
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,919
Speaker 1: so it was significant physical injuries, but also I would

655
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 1: imagine mental injuries. When did you find out Katrina the

656
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 1: Dawson was killed?

657
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 2: You know, I did not know that Katrina was in there.

658
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 2: When they originally told me that one of the other

659
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 2: hostages had died, I made the assumption. I jumped to

660
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 2: the assumption that one of the girls who had gone

661
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,760
Speaker 2: had taken into the kitchen had actually been killed. And

662
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 2: so I had a little bit of confusion initially about that.

663
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 2: But you know, and then of course when people explained.

664
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 2: And then of course, you know, because I wasn't watching

665
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,799
Speaker 2: media in hospital just but my friends were coming in

666
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,240
Speaker 2: and telling me what was happening in Martin Place and

667
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 2: what the media was saying. And you know, it was

668
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 2: very difficult in those early hours after because there was

669
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 2: one media report apparently that went that Tory Johnson had

670
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 2: attacked the gunman and you know that's why, you know

671
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 2: he up dying. At the time, I was infuriated by

672
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:11,720
Speaker 2: that misinformation. And because Tory was a hero, he didn't

673
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 2: need some fabricated story, which was a great shame, but

674
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 2: it caused me personally some angst because I know what happened,

675
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 2: and it's like but then I was aware that his

676
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 2: family were being told this hero story which wasn't true.

677
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 2: There was no need for.

678
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 1: That, but to need to be told. Yeah, and like

679
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: the public pouring out of sympathy and worrying about it

680
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 1: being divisive. I've never seen a situation like that, and

681
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 1: I've never felt an environment like that. I've done a

682
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: lot of crime scenes. But after they got you out,

683
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 1: we went there to do the crime scene, and I

684
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: was saying to you the other day that when I

685
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,800
Speaker 1: went into the Link cafe, and we had it secured,

686
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 1: so there were many people inside there, but what you

687
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 1: had just described was left in situ, so we saw

688
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 1: what had gone on. There was a feeling of fear

689
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:05,840
Speaker 1: and emotion in that building.

690
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 2: You know.

691
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 1: You talk about premonitions, and I've tried to process what

692
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 1: that was about, because I've been to a lot of

693
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 1: crime scenes and some are worse than others. But I

694
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 1: think it was because we were all watching it play

695
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 1: out in public. Yes, and then when it resolved in

696
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 1: such a tragic way, going in there, I could almost

697
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: feel your presence, like the hostages presence. How scary it

698
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: would have been in that environment at the time, I

699
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 1: can only imagine, and sitting here and you describing what

700
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 1: you went through and knowing the scene as well as

701
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 1: I do. It's just a horrific, horrific thing to have

702
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 1: been through.

703
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's why it matters so much

704
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 2: to the broader public, because this happened to all of us,

705
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 2: because we weren't just you all weren't just sitting idly.

706
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 2: You were watching the television and you were part of that.

707
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 2: And whenever I speak about it publicly, absolutely everyone can

708
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 2: tell me their story and I'm happy to hear their

709
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 2: story because it's our collective story, you know, of where

710
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 2: you were that day, what you were doing, how we

711
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 2: were all living our ordinary lives. And then it changed.

712
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 2: And you know, terrorism is real violence. You know, we

713
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:20,800
Speaker 2: deal with it on an every day basis.

714
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 1: Well, brought it to the doorstep, didn't it, in a way?

715
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 1: And I think the lead up to Christmas, like we

716
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 1: all remember, I remember when it happened. I'm thinking, but

717
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 1: this is inconvenient. I was seeing the sun that I

718
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: hadn't seen for ages, and spending a couple of days

719
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 1: with him, I didn't get to see him. And then

720
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 1: the flowers, the flowers at the crime scene, I can

721
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 1: honestly say, and I've said it to you before the interview,

722
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 1: I've never been in a situation where one of the

723
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 1: one of the things I had to manage was the

724
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 1: amount of flowers and floral tributes that were put there,

725
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 1: that was pouring out of grief by a whole city.

726
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 2: You know, I have to tell you that because I

727
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 2: was quite distressed about the idea of race riots in

728
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,839
Speaker 2: this and you know, the early days afterwards, like I'm

729
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 2: thinking anything could happen, and talking about it with friends

730
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 2: and family and praying about it. Like someone told me

731
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 2: about a hashtag ride with me, and the idea that

732
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 2: if you know, especially for Muslim women who are in

733
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 2: their hijab, if they're on public transport, you know, that

734
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:23,279
Speaker 2: they could reach out and other women would sit with them.

735
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 2: And that brought me deep comfort. And the flowers. The

736
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 2: flowers were amazing and I didn't get to see the

737
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 2: money photographs, but just knowing that that was happening. Just

738
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 2: friends telling me about going into Martin Place and about

739
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 2: how quiet it was and how respectful everybody was, and

740
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:49,800
Speaker 2: you know, crying and the collective distress, but just how

741
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 2: there was such a strong sense of unity and community.

742
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 2: I can't tell you. I'd say to people, thank you

743
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 2: so much, you know for that, because when I was

744
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 2: in hospital, it kind of made me just go, I

745
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 2: can just relax here and get better, you know, there

746
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 2: was nothing to sort of worry about because I was

747
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 2: freaked out about that and thinking what can I do

748
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,240
Speaker 2: to stop something happening?

749
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 1: You know, it was good that the city or the

750
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:22,880
Speaker 1: nation reacted reacted that way, and we taught the flowers,

751
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 1: but the amount of people there, it was literally difficult

752
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 1: to get into the crime soon then going backwards and

753
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,399
Speaker 1: forwards and people they're so respectful and.

754
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 2: Just, and I thank our country for that, you know,

755
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 2: makes all the difference.

756
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a lot of pain there, physical injuries,

757
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 1: emotional injuries. Talk us through that because you carry, so

758
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 1: you've got to carry something.

759
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, okay, so my physical injuries where there's a

760
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 2: hole in my.

761
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 1: Foot that hurts.

762
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 2: Ah, yeah, and I've got some shrapnel in and around

763
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:01,280
Speaker 2: and the shrapnel that I got still got little fragments

764
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 2: of strap.

765
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 1: Sounds pretty cool. I've got some shrapnel, yeah, when you

766
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 1: go through the right.

767
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right exactly. I say that a lot actually anyway, Yeah,

768
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 2: so shrapnell in my foot, which is like fine pencil sharpenings.

769
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 2: So a few things here, two things nurses. Right, So

770
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 2: I finally we finally get in through emergency at Prince

771
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 2: of Wales and I'm greeted by emergency nurse there and

772
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 2: so I say to it, right, just tell me straight

773
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:39,879
Speaker 2: my foot. Do you think I'm going to lose it?

774
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 2: And she looks at my foot and she says, I've

775
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 2: seen worse, And in that moment, I went, that's right,

776
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,840
Speaker 2: don't catastrophize, Louisa, she's seen worse. It's going to be okay.

777
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:56,399
Speaker 2: So we're going through that. And then, of course I

778
00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 2: didn't realize, and this is peculiar, but I had also

779
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 2: been hit in my belly, shrapnel in my belly, So

780
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 2: that was really weird. And there's only recently, like about

781
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 2: two weeks ago, that I found out that when you've

782
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 2: got various injuries around your body, you only feel one

783
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 2: point of pain at a time. So anyway, you know,

784
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 2: my foot was in serious pain and I didn't even

785
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 2: feel this in my belly. Right and so I'm with

786
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 2: the nurse, the emergency nurse, and we've done all the doctors,

787
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:26,759
Speaker 2: have checked in this and that and blah blah.

788
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 1: And the.

789
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 2: Middle Eastern crime scene cops are there and we're talking

790
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 2: and they're recording me because I'm going to ten a

791
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 2: dozen because I'm thinking I need to tell them everything

792
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 2: that I can remember in case I forget when I

793
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,240
Speaker 2: have my surgery. Blah blah. Anyway, this is all happening

794
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:45,359
Speaker 2: in the emergency room right there. And then the nurse

795
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:47,399
Speaker 2: says to me, so, Louisa, we're just going to cut

796
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 2: off your dress, and I went no, no, no, you're not.

797
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:51,720
Speaker 2: You're not going to cut off my dress. I really

798
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 2: like this dress. It's my best black dress. You know,

799
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 2: go anywhere girls, we'll understand, perfect black dress for everything.

800
00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,399
Speaker 2: We're visiting a lawyer, appropriate that I wore a black

801
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 2: dress away. She says, yes, it's protocol. It's what we're

802
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 2: going to like what you're going to cut off my dress?

803
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:06,400
Speaker 2: So really upset about it. And so I turned to

804
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 2: these Middle Eastern cops, right and I say to them,

805
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 2: you can't let her cut off my dress. And they say, whoa, no,

806
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 2: we're not interested. Typical cops. Where's a cop when you

807
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 2: need one? They just like, yeah, exactly. They disappeared anyway.

808
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 2: So she starts to cut off my dress and you're

809
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,839
Speaker 2: going cut, cut, cutting, I'm you know, and we're going

810
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 2: up and it's going up and over my head and

811
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 2: then I'll help her lift it over my head. And

812
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 2: then as I do that, I my hands and whoa,

813
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 2: they're full of blood all over my hands and what's that?

814
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, what's that? And she like suddenly goes, oh, right, okay,

815
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,880
Speaker 2: lie down, blah blah, checking my Oh there you go.

816
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,799
Speaker 2: You got two yeah, shrapnel we had that little moment

817
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:47,839
Speaker 2: that nurse and she's looking at me and I'm looking

818
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 2: at her, and she knows that I know that she

819
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,839
Speaker 2: was right. She had to cut off my dress and

820
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 2: that was really great. But then then she says, I

821
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 2: got to cut off your bra and nickers, and I'm like,

822
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 2: no way, I just come back from America. There's a

823
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 2: brand new right, and she's just this is what we do.

824
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 2: And I'm thinking someone's got to do something about this.

825
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 2: But anyway, that all said, she was right, and I

826
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 2: had shrapnel in my belly. But then I just tell

827
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 2: you this story. So this is what happened. So you know,

828
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:16,760
Speaker 2: when you've had surgery, the doctor comes around and visits

829
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 2: you the next day. So I'd had surgery at about

830
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 2: seven o'clock in the morning by the time it all

831
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 2: was said and done, and the doctor must have come

832
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:29,800
Speaker 2: to visit me around you know, midday, one o'clock. Anyway,

833
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 2: so she comes to visit me, and she's lovely, this doctor,

834
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 2: and she says, oh, Louisa, And by this stage, I've

835
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 2: got this great big water around my foot and you know,

836
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:43,239
Speaker 2: patches of different things everywhere, and she says, oh, Louisa,

837
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:46,359
Speaker 2: like this, and I went, oh, no, I did lose

838
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 2: my foot after all, that just the way she said it.

839
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 2: And she said, no, no, Louisa, We're so sorry, so sorry,

840
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 2: but we couldn't get the shrap and all out of

841
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 2: your belly. And I went, oh. She said, yes, it's

842
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:58,879
Speaker 2: about the size of a long grain blown up piece

843
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:01,399
Speaker 2: of rice and few there and we just couldn't get

844
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 2: it out of your belly. So I said to her, seeing,

845
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:08,799
Speaker 2: you know, like she was so serious, I just said, oh, gee, doc,

846
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:10,839
Speaker 2: shame you couldn't have done little LiPo while you were

847
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:13,920
Speaker 2: down there, right, And yeah, I thought she'd laugh, and no, no,

848
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 2: she finger and she says, Louisa, your fat saved your life.

849
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 2: And I'm like, pardon me, what did you just say?

850
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 2: You know, because what doctor says that?

851
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 1: Right?

852
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 2: And she says, Louisa, if that shrapnel had gotten into

853
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 2: your abdomen and your organ, she said, things would have

854
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 2: been very different. So, you know, I just had that

855
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 2: little moment in the hospital there with that doctor, and

856
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,719
Speaker 2: I thought to myself, my god, how many years I've

857
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,759
Speaker 2: been trying to lose that extra ten or so twenty kilos, right,

858
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:43,799
Speaker 2: but here it is that saved my life, you know,

859
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 2: the very thing that I have loathed about myself.

860
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 1: Doesn't it to chow a lesson in life?

861
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 2: Exactly right?

862
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 1: There's a reason who was meant to be I don't it.

863
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 2: Never cursed to Quilo again? Ten years of freedom, not

864
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 2: worried about needs that.

865
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 1: Well, look a game. We laugh about it, but you've

866
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 1: got to laugh about it like it impacts in so

867
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 1: many ways. Now, that was shrapnel. I know. When I

868
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 1: went through the crime scene, there was so much concern

869
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 1: from a police point of view and trying to ascertain

870
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:18,360
Speaker 1: what went on, and concern from the tactical guys that

871
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:21,919
Speaker 1: I put up front. Heroes is a term that's used

872
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 1: too often with policing things. They're doing a job, but

873
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 1: in the circumstances, and I have had involvement in tactical

874
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 1: policing in the circumstances for them to have to go

875
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 1: into a situation like that, immediate action after what happened

876
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 1: to Tory would be confronting. And they didn't know whether

877
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:42,879
Speaker 1: they were going in there with the bombs, and they

878
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 1: went in there without blinking and eye when they came

879
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 1: out and they had done their job, They've taken out

880
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,839
Speaker 1: the terrorist and they found out that the hostage had

881
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 1: died Katrina in that situation, they were obviously devastated, and

882
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:01,800
Speaker 1: we had ballistics, the coroner come through the crime scene.

883
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 1: We left it all in the in situe. Corona come

884
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 1: through the crime scene, ballistics, and I think it was

885
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 1: about a day later or whatever. Then the ballistics called

886
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 1: me back to the Sydney Police Center and showed me

887
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:18,360
Speaker 1: something that he'd seen in the way that the bullets

888
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 1: were fired and all that, and it looked like it

889
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 1: was shrapnel from a ricochet that had hit Katrina. And

890
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 1: we had to keep the integrity of the investigation protect

891
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:32,280
Speaker 1: that because we were doing separate things. As we've mentioned

892
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,839
Speaker 1: Angelo Mamolo, who did a great job running the whole investigation.

893
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:38,800
Speaker 1: And I know it was a relief to the tactical

894
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,759
Speaker 1: blokes that went in there that wasn't from a direct hit.

895
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,800
Speaker 1: And I'm sure they'd be feeling that you received shrapnel.

896
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 1: You're the one that was in there, you know, the

897
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 1: chaos of the situation. What's your thoughts on the police

898
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 1: that went in that day.

899
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:59,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, first of all, I'm astounded the hindsight

900
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:04,799
Speaker 2: that everybody has an opinion and I sort of say,

901
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:06,799
Speaker 2: you weren't really there in the moment, how can you

902
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 2: have an opinion, But you know, that's the way it is.

903
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,600
Speaker 2: Everyone does have an opinion, and so in the moment.

904
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 2: A few things about those cops, right, So the tactical guys.

905
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:19,359
Speaker 2: First of all, they were there all day. They did

906
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:21,480
Speaker 2: not There wasn't a change of shift. They were there

907
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 2: all day. They were waiting with us, and just knowing

908
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 2: that they were there was very comforting. But they waited

909
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 2: in the hot sun, you know, and I just and

910
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 2: then of course when they came in and they rescued us,

911
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:40,840
Speaker 2: which is what we'd been waiting for all day. Finally

912
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 2: they came in, and the overwhelming insanity of being in

913
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 2: that space. If you imagine that, it was like Hawaii

914
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:57,359
Speaker 2: five oh and one cop goes in and shoots one

915
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:01,279
Speaker 2: bullet and the bad guy's dead. And somewhere in my

916
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 2: crazy brain, that's maybe what I thought was going to happen,

917
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:08,320
Speaker 2: But of course that's not reality, and what I didn't

918
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 2: know until the inquest. So my opinions are informed by

919
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 2: the inquest and what actually happened. But you know, Monas

920
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 2: did not go down. He just did not go down,

921
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:23,800
Speaker 2: and so they had to keep shooting to take him down,

922
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 2: and they had to keep shooting to take him down

923
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 2: because they thought he had a bomb, and someone had

924
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:32,760
Speaker 2: mistakenly thought they saw a wire going down his shirt sleeve,

925
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 2: a long sleeve shirt sleeve, and therefore that meant that

926
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 2: he had some sort of button thing that but if

927
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:41,959
Speaker 2: they did not take him out, then he could pop

928
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 2: the bomb. Right, So that makes Once I heard that

929
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:48,319
Speaker 2: information at the inquest, I suddenly understood why there was

930
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 2: so took so long. The shooting just went on so intensely,

931
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 2: so logically, that makes total sense to me. And I

932
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 2: think that, you know a few things. I don't know

933
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 2: that the general public really understand that. Actually one of

934
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 2: the one of the tou guys was hit. Officer B

935
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 2: was hit. Now, he was hit with shrapnel as he

936
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 2: was coming into the cafe with monas like directly firing

937
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:15,360
Speaker 2: at that and he took shrapnel to the side of

938
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 2: his temple. Now, for the life of me, I don't

939
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:20,319
Speaker 2: know how anyone takes, you know, effectively a bullet to

940
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 2: the side of your temple and you don't die. He

941
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:27,240
Speaker 2: didn't die. That's miraculous. But you know, it costs these cops,

942
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:30,799
Speaker 2: you know, physically and psycho emotionally as well. They're just

943
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:34,279
Speaker 2: humans like us, right, even with all the training. But

944
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 2: you know, so with regard to those guys from right

945
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 2: up front, I remember, Mum and I just were poor Angela,

946
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 2: when can we meet those guys who rescued us? Can

947
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:46,319
Speaker 2: we meet them?

948
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 1: Please?

949
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 2: Can we meet them? And we'd ask that every second

950
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 2: time we spoke to him formatt anyway, But of course

951
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 2: that's not how things work with cops. And it took

952
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 2: me a long time before I met them or some

953
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:02,239
Speaker 2: of them, And you know, we have nothing but admiration

954
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:07,840
Speaker 2: for them and gratitude and total respect, you know, like

955
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:13,080
Speaker 2: it's it's hostages are running out right and they're running in.

956
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:18,720
Speaker 2: They're going in and my god, what kind of crazy

957
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 2: brave does that take?

958
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:22,359
Speaker 1: Well, I know that will mean a lot to them,

959
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:24,480
Speaker 1: and the fact that you've said it to them, but

960
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 1: it's good that said publicly. Admiration and respect and I

961
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:30,879
Speaker 1: think that's how it should be described. And they all

962
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 1: pay a price for that. I haven't seen a police

963
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 1: officer involved in the shooting that hasn't paid the price,

964
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:38,799
Speaker 1: one one way or the other. And it's scrutinized and

965
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:42,240
Speaker 1: it's scrutinized why people with benefit of hindsight that weren't there.

966
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 1: And yeah, I was hearing just on the grape vine

967
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:48,799
Speaker 1: about the guys before they went in or when they

968
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:51,279
Speaker 1: were there, they were finding their families saying mightn't see

969
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 1: them again, but they still went in.

970
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 2: Yes, So that is that's what I mean, like, who

971
00:50:58,000 --> 00:50:58,880
Speaker 2: are these people?

972
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, we are out there, and that we're lucky that

973
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:08,760
Speaker 1: they're out there. The inquest the answered some questions for it.

974
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 1: Was it traumatical, was it beneficial in the scene, and

975
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:15,759
Speaker 1: you had Michael Barnes as the as a coroner who

976
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:18,760
Speaker 1: had a good reputation, a no nonsense type of person

977
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 1: and probably the best person for looking into it. Where

978
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:24,880
Speaker 1: you satisfied that the questions were being answered that you

979
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 1: needed answered.

980
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:37,120
Speaker 2: No, not really. The inquest was for me quite traumatic actually.

981
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 2: So originally I went to the inquest to pay my

982
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 2: respects to the families because I hadn't had a chance

983
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:45,359
Speaker 2: because I was in the hospital when that, you know,

984
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:49,239
Speaker 2: Tory and Katrina were buried. But I wanted to do that.

985
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 2: And what happened to me was once I started to

986
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:55,200
Speaker 2: go to the inquest, I realized that this was the

987
00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 2: only way I was really ever going to know what

988
00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:02,720
Speaker 2: really happened, and I certainly couldn't rely on secondhand information

989
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,680
Speaker 2: that one gets through the media. So I started to

990
00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:08,799
Speaker 2: go every day. So I virtually went every day, not

991
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:12,160
Speaker 2: quite but virtually. It was an arduous time because it

992
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:15,759
Speaker 2: took so long that inquest, and the inquest was trying

993
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 2: to be all things to all people. You know it really,

994
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:23,839
Speaker 2: you know, an inquest purpose is to find out the

995
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 2: cause of death for people who've died, and there were

996
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:31,840
Speaker 2: three people who died in that siege. But of course

997
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 2: the rest of the country was looking for something more.

998
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:40,880
Speaker 2: I mean, we were looking for what possibly if this

999
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 2: happened again, what improvements could be made, all of that

1000
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:47,319
Speaker 2: kind of thing, but also trying to understand how how

1001
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:50,759
Speaker 2: did this happen? And so there I was left with

1002
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 2: several significant questions post inquest.

1003
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, say what they are?

1004
00:52:56,800 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 2: Well, a few things. So, first of all, because I

1005
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:02,880
Speaker 2: have connection with the New South Wales Police, I have

1006
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 2: a lot to do with them. I've spoken at several

1007
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:07,359
Speaker 2: functions and different things and training and all that kind

1008
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 2: of stuff. So and I'm very grateful for that opportunity

1009
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:17,360
Speaker 2: to share like that with them.

1010
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 1: And.

1011
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:17,920
Speaker 2: Just as an aside to that, it absolutely takes the siege.

1012
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 2: The link siege has taken a toll on the police collectively,

1013
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 2: because without fail, whenever I've gone to share with police,

1014
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:28,640
Speaker 2: someone in the room will say, Louisa, we're sorry. You know,

1015
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 2: it wasn't meant to be like this. And there's a

1016
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 2: collective grief amongst our police. And I feel for them,

1017
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 2: you know, because it's not their fault, you know. But anyway,

1018
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:43,360
Speaker 2: at the inquest, it was fascinating to see how it

1019
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 2: played out. It was all done through in segments, different

1020
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:49,319
Speaker 2: things about Monas and then about the cafe, and then

1021
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:51,319
Speaker 2: about you know, and then about the police. So there

1022
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 2: was a lot of discussion, as there was in the media,

1023
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:57,720
Speaker 2: a lot of discussion about the police and what went wrong.

1024
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:01,480
Speaker 2: And we have to say things went wrong, you know,

1025
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:05,880
Speaker 2: But I can say I know things have changed, you know,

1026
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:08,520
Speaker 2: because of my dealings, and I'm very grateful to know

1027
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:11,760
Speaker 2: that they've changed the way the negotiators work. For example,

1028
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 2: there's been significant changes there. There's been things that have

1029
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 2: come out of the lint. For example, one of the

1030
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 2: hardest things, of course was for the police dealing with

1031
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:26,480
Speaker 2: the hostage survivors and families after the siege in the

1032
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:32,080
Speaker 2: immediate aftermath, that was very challenging and hard for everybody.

1033
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:35,560
Speaker 2: So now as I understand, the police have something called flows,

1034
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:40,120
Speaker 2: which is family liaison officers who are dedicated in those

1035
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:43,279
Speaker 2: kind of circumstances. For example, I imagine that would have

1036
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:48,320
Speaker 2: happened for Bondai, where in those circumstances where someone's died,

1037
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 2: the families are given a one point of contact with

1038
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:56,239
Speaker 2: the police they call flows. And that's a great thing

1039
00:54:56,360 --> 00:55:00,760
Speaker 2: because I know that it was hard, you know, because

1040
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:03,759
Speaker 2: the nature of policing you can't just pop off and

1041
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 2: hold the hand of people who in trauma from an

1042
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 2: event late.

1043
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:10,480
Speaker 1: I think that's great initiative that's come in, And you're

1044
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:13,040
Speaker 1: quite right that has come in and there were problems

1045
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 1: there and I can speak from personal experience from that

1046
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 1: particular incident that there were so many victims, so many families,

1047
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:22,880
Speaker 1: and yeah, I was doing the crime scene, but I

1048
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 1: was allocated to speak to a family and stay in

1049
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:29,040
Speaker 1: contact with this hostage and things just it was on

1050
00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:32,080
Speaker 1: the magnitude that we didn't understand or hadn't prepared for.

1051
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:35,200
Speaker 1: And having been a homicide detective for as long as

1052
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:37,239
Speaker 1: I have. I know the importance of that keeping those

1053
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:40,120
Speaker 1: lines of communication, and you're looking at it from a

1054
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 1: hostage victim of crime situation, the importance of having someone

1055
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:46,719
Speaker 1: that you can find out what's going on or what's

1056
00:55:46,719 --> 00:55:49,880
Speaker 1: the processes. Who can I ask a question? And without

1057
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 1: having someone that you know you can pick the phone

1058
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 1: up and speak to, you get lost in the world.

1059
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:58,320
Speaker 1: So that is a positive that's come from it. You

1060
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:01,439
Speaker 1: mentioned the negotiators, and I know they got put through

1061
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:05,239
Speaker 1: the ring or over what occurred there, and hopefully the

1062
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 1: improvements have played out from there, because if things happen,

1063
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:12,839
Speaker 1: and I keep prefacing it with benefit the hindsight, we're

1064
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:16,000
Speaker 1: all clever when we look back. But if there were

1065
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:19,560
Speaker 1: mistakes made, let's own them and improve if we can.

1066
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:24,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that that's true. And that observation I

1067
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:27,160
Speaker 2: made with regard to the police was seeing how they

1068
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:32,080
Speaker 2: quickly got about making those improvements. It was very encouraging

1069
00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:34,680
Speaker 2: for me because it's really easy to be down on

1070
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:38,880
Speaker 2: the police, but actually, yeah, the work they've done, you know,

1071
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:43,040
Speaker 2: but it's perpetual, whether it's us individually as individuals or

1072
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:47,160
Speaker 2: it is our institutions. We always always have to be

1073
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:51,319
Speaker 2: on the board for improvement and changes and embrace that

1074
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:54,399
Speaker 2: as hard as it can be. But you know, it wasn't.

1075
00:56:54,440 --> 00:57:00,279
Speaker 2: Of course, we had opportunity to give mister Barnes a

1076
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:04,200
Speaker 2: victim impact statement, even though the inquest wasn't about the

1077
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:06,600
Speaker 2: people who survived. They're about the people who died. So,

1078
00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 2: you know, I think in hindsight there may have been

1079
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:14,520
Speaker 2: we needed something that was between an inquest and a

1080
00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:19,240
Speaker 2: royal commission to address the entire gauntlet of what happened

1081
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:24,560
Speaker 2: at the Lend. The inquest was not big enough. It

1082
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:27,640
Speaker 2: was necessary, but not big enough. In our expectations were

1083
00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:33,480
Speaker 2: too high for what a you know, an institution or

1084
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 2: a function that the inquest could provide. So in hindsight,

1085
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:39,479
Speaker 2: I hope that there'd be you know, maybe it doesn't

1086
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:42,080
Speaker 2: need necessarily a royal commission, but it needs something that's

1087
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:44,120
Speaker 2: just a little bit bigger. I don't know, not being

1088
00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:46,680
Speaker 2: a legal person, but so you know, I sort.

1089
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:50,840
Speaker 1: Of okay, parliamentary inquiry or something. And I understand what

1090
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:54,520
Speaker 1: you're saying, and you obviously understand the nature of inquest,

1091
00:57:54,720 --> 00:57:58,200
Speaker 1: the parameters of a narrow manic cause and time and

1092
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:01,560
Speaker 1: location of death. That's yes, really what the coroner is

1093
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 1: there to put them. Maybe the expectations were going to

1094
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:08,280
Speaker 1: look wider, yes, than what they had the power to do.

1095
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:11,360
Speaker 1: Any other things that have flowed on from your experience

1096
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:14,200
Speaker 1: what you're doing now, And yeah.

1097
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:16,840
Speaker 2: Well, you know, the inquest led me a bit gobsmacked,

1098
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 2: not being a legal person to understand what was happening

1099
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:26,480
Speaker 2: with the DPP And in actual fact, I still don't

1100
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:31,040
Speaker 2: know why. We don't know why man Heroon Monus was

1101
00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:35,160
Speaker 2: even out on bail. That man had approximately forty three

1102
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:38,480
Speaker 2: different sexual assault charges against him. So why is a

1103
00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:42,520
Speaker 2: man with forty three different sexual assaults even out on

1104
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:46,520
Speaker 2: bail that he could then commit the lent atrocity? So,

1105
00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:49,240
Speaker 2: you know, like that is a big question for me.

1106
00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:52,040
Speaker 2: We've not looked there. We've been so busy looking at

1107
00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:56,000
Speaker 2: the police. We didn't turn our minds to looking about

1108
00:58:56,240 --> 00:58:58,800
Speaker 2: why he was really out on bail. It was discussed,

1109
00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:01,800
Speaker 2: but it was hedged. There's a funny little legal thing

1110
00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:04,680
Speaker 2: that happened at the inquest that I don't really understand.

1111
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:07,439
Speaker 2: It's a mystery to me. But you know, there's something

1112
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:12,560
Speaker 2: called client confidentiality, So of course in this instance, the

1113
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:17,080
Speaker 2: police were the clients of the DPP. So therefore there's

1114
00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:23,600
Speaker 2: a client confidentiality that's right, exactly privilege. So however, the police,

1115
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:26,480
Speaker 2: in the spirit of the inquest, said that they were

1116
00:59:26,600 --> 00:59:30,880
Speaker 2: happy to negate that or surrender that privilege and just

1117
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:35,920
Speaker 2: let everything out. However, the DPP chose to not do that.

1118
00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:42,000
Speaker 2: They insisted that client confidentiality be held. So I was

1119
00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:45,960
Speaker 2: confused about why an institution like the DPP that's there

1120
00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:49,040
Speaker 2: to look after us, one would think why they would

1121
00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:52,480
Speaker 2: do that and why we could not dig in a

1122
00:59:52,520 --> 00:59:57,600
Speaker 2: little deeper and understand what was it that allowed that

1123
00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:01,480
Speaker 2: man to be out on bail? So was there an

1124
01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:05,280
Speaker 2: issue with a judiciary? I mean, excuse me, God forbid

1125
01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:07,720
Speaker 2: that I should question them? What do I know? But

1126
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:10,680
Speaker 2: you know, seriously, if we're going to be transparent, if

1127
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:13,200
Speaker 2: we're going to actually suck the guts out of what

1128
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:17,800
Speaker 2: happened in that search situation and get whatever benefit we

1129
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:20,920
Speaker 2: possibly can, then surely we must be brave enough to

1130
01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:21,720
Speaker 2: ask those questions.

1131
01:00:21,760 --> 01:00:24,959
Speaker 1: Well, Louisa, and I'll say this in a general sense

1132
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:27,920
Speaker 1: because I'm a coward and I won't be specific, but

1133
01:00:28,640 --> 01:00:32,440
Speaker 1: you know, when it comes to legal systems looking at

1134
01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:35,720
Speaker 1: themselves or critiquing themselves. There's a certain what I call

1135
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:39,960
Speaker 1: intellectual arrogance that comes about that. Why would you dare

1136
01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:44,320
Speaker 1: question what we do? And so I think that plays

1137
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:46,680
Speaker 1: out and I'm talking in a general sense, but it's

1138
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:49,480
Speaker 1: a fair question. You ask what man Monus was doing

1139
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:53,520
Speaker 1: out on bail, because when the incident happened, when it

1140
01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:56,000
Speaker 1: very first hit the news, we're in the homicide office

1141
01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:59,560
Speaker 1: and one of the young female detectives said that's man

1142
01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 1: Monas were charged him in relation to the murder of

1143
01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:06,120
Speaker 1: his ex partner, and that's where he was identified first.

1144
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:09,000
Speaker 1: So there are a lot of questions. And I suppose

1145
01:01:09,160 --> 01:01:11,880
Speaker 1: you're the victim of these actions, and so I think

1146
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:14,880
Speaker 1: you've got to write the question. But yeah, when they're

1147
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:17,760
Speaker 1: looking in the into the court systems, and look, I

1148
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:20,040
Speaker 1: take it you're a person that respects the court system.

1149
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:23,280
Speaker 1: I do too. We've got to have a system. But again,

1150
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:26,400
Speaker 1: if it can be improved, let's improve it. Then it's

1151
01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:29,240
Speaker 1: very easy. It's almost like a sport beating up on

1152
01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:33,240
Speaker 1: the police, and police are robust enough to accept that.

1153
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:36,120
Speaker 1: But if the problems are external to the police, maybe

1154
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:37,320
Speaker 1: we should look at that as well.

1155
01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:39,920
Speaker 2: So yeah, I would hope, you know, we are ten

1156
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:42,400
Speaker 2: years now since the Lint and we have not moved

1157
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:46,520
Speaker 2: on this issue, and one wonders, you know, what is

1158
01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:50,600
Speaker 2: this about? Who doesn't take sexual assault seriously enough to

1159
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:56,280
Speaker 2: keep someone like that in prison? So we have you know,

1160
01:01:56,400 --> 01:02:00,560
Speaker 2: imagine if we'd learned that lesson at the LINT. You know, serious,

1161
01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:02,000
Speaker 2: this kind of crime is.

1162
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:04,360
Speaker 1: The potential consequences from exactly.

1163
01:02:04,640 --> 01:02:07,800
Speaker 2: Okay, So you know, I am keen about that. If

1164
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:10,840
Speaker 2: there's ever anyone who who's brave enough to stand up

1165
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:13,600
Speaker 2: and start to ask those questions, I'm just you know, nobody,

1166
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:16,240
Speaker 2: and I have no legal skill, but I think it's

1167
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:18,360
Speaker 2: still out there. It hangs in the air for us.

1168
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:21,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I wouldn't. I'm not going to agree with

1169
01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:24,920
Speaker 1: you on being that nobody. You're articulating the horrific experience

1170
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:30,440
Speaker 1: you've been through with some genuine emotions, but consideration for

1171
01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:33,680
Speaker 1: everyone involved, not just yourself, and that says a lot

1172
01:02:33,720 --> 01:02:37,600
Speaker 1: about you. Are you advocating for anything else, you do

1173
01:02:37,680 --> 01:02:40,760
Speaker 1: anything else on the back of what your experience is?

1174
01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:43,120
Speaker 2: So you know, I'm like so blessed, Like I said,

1175
01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:46,600
Speaker 2: you know, like I really had that euphoric experience, and

1176
01:02:46,640 --> 01:02:48,240
Speaker 2: that has to do with the fact that we started

1177
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:49,960
Speaker 2: the Luis a Hope fun for nurses at Prince of

1178
01:02:49,960 --> 01:02:54,440
Speaker 2: Wal's Hospital back then, and that was my involvement with

1179
01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:58,760
Speaker 2: the nurses is happy. I'm so happy. It's like a privilege,

1180
01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:03,120
Speaker 2: so privileged to be involved with nurses. The incredible nurses

1181
01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:06,880
Speaker 2: could rule the world. I'm just saying anyway. But of

1182
01:03:06,920 --> 01:03:10,080
Speaker 2: course now I'm more directly involved with something called VOTER,

1183
01:03:10,240 --> 01:03:15,520
Speaker 2: which is Victims of Terror Australia, which is for citizens

1184
01:03:15,560 --> 01:03:19,000
Speaker 2: of Australia and New Zealand to come together with regard

1185
01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:23,120
Speaker 2: who have survived terrorist attacks, to be a support group

1186
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:25,400
Speaker 2: for each other. So we've been working very hard on that.

1187
01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:29,680
Speaker 2: So the launch has just happened recently and so I'm

1188
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:34,680
Speaker 2: very excited about that. For you know, this is when

1189
01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:38,040
Speaker 2: you are a victim of terror, you become the state

1190
01:03:38,760 --> 01:03:42,080
Speaker 2: because the terrorist is not interested in you as an individual.

1191
01:03:42,640 --> 01:03:46,840
Speaker 2: They're hitting the state and so it's completely different actually

1192
01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:51,200
Speaker 2: to other acts of violence. So the expectation on you

1193
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:54,760
Speaker 2: is different and a whole lot of different things. But

1194
01:03:55,880 --> 01:04:00,760
Speaker 2: so therefore, how we help and support thevictims of terror

1195
01:04:01,000 --> 01:04:04,400
Speaker 2: and let's face it, the world we live in, it's

1196
01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:05,160
Speaker 2: not going to stop.

1197
01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:12,439
Speaker 1: The link Cafe was a small incident that it might

1198
01:04:12,480 --> 01:04:15,760
Speaker 1: pile into insignificance in potentially what can occur when you're

1199
01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:19,920
Speaker 1: talking terrorism. For the support group that you're setting up,

1200
01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:21,800
Speaker 1: If people are interested, how do they find it?

1201
01:04:22,080 --> 01:04:23,920
Speaker 2: Yes, well they can find us online. You know we're

1202
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:28,880
Speaker 2: at a vota voter and so victims of terror Australia

1203
01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:31,560
Speaker 2: they can find us there and certainly they can go

1204
01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:34,400
Speaker 2: to my website if they like, just to make contact

1205
01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:37,680
Speaker 2: because we want to reach out. We want to know

1206
01:04:38,320 --> 01:04:40,920
Speaker 2: other people who've been in this circumstance so that we

1207
01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:45,200
Speaker 2: can be supportive of each other. Myself personally, I have

1208
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:49,000
Speaker 2: a very keen interest in how we can serve the

1209
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:53,200
Speaker 2: broader community and for those who have been victims and

1210
01:04:53,240 --> 01:04:57,280
Speaker 2: survivors can then reach out and speak into the community

1211
01:04:57,320 --> 01:04:59,600
Speaker 2: with regard to these kind of things for our social

1212
01:04:59,600 --> 01:05:04,120
Speaker 2: cohes and our multicultural nation that we are. And of

1213
01:05:04,160 --> 01:05:09,040
Speaker 2: course people like Jill Hicks, brilliant, amazing Australian, South Australian,

1214
01:05:09,120 --> 01:05:12,440
Speaker 2: she was in the London bombing attacks, So you know

1215
01:05:12,760 --> 01:05:15,800
Speaker 2: people like Jill and of course the amazing Alpha Chang and.

1216
01:05:15,760 --> 01:05:18,800
Speaker 1: Different people amazing that's.

1217
01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:22,280
Speaker 2: Right, and so you think, well this has happened to me,

1218
01:05:22,360 --> 01:05:25,360
Speaker 2: what do you do with it? You know, all things

1219
01:05:25,360 --> 01:05:28,720
Speaker 2: in life have a reason, I believe, and so therefore,

1220
01:05:29,320 --> 01:05:31,760
Speaker 2: what do you do with this experience? You can be

1221
01:05:31,880 --> 01:05:34,880
Speaker 2: owned by the experience, or you can own the experience

1222
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:37,640
Speaker 2: and you can work out a way to turn it

1223
01:05:37,680 --> 01:05:41,280
Speaker 2: for good. And for me personally, that's been a blessing

1224
01:05:41,320 --> 01:05:43,800
Speaker 2: to be able to do that in just small ways,

1225
01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:47,200
Speaker 2: but you know, just to encourage other people and to

1226
01:05:47,320 --> 01:05:50,200
Speaker 2: not let ourselves go down down the hole and the

1227
01:05:50,240 --> 01:05:54,880
Speaker 2: whole of course is racial hatred and all of that

1228
01:05:55,040 --> 01:05:58,400
Speaker 2: kind of division. Australia is not that kind of place.

1229
01:05:59,040 --> 01:06:02,040
Speaker 2: But I mean we have to actively and deliberately make

1230
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:04,480
Speaker 2: a way to do not be that place, because be

1231
01:06:04,560 --> 01:06:08,560
Speaker 2: very easy to be convinced to be fearful or angry.

1232
01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:12,080
Speaker 2: But you know, actually, no, we can be another way,

1233
01:06:12,120 --> 01:06:13,320
Speaker 2: we can be our true selves.

1234
01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:16,680
Speaker 1: You know, well, I am not going to add to

1235
01:06:16,680 --> 01:06:20,040
Speaker 1: that because I can't. I can't deliver it as articulately

1236
01:06:20,360 --> 01:06:23,440
Speaker 1: as you had. And I've just got to say, like

1237
01:06:23,760 --> 01:06:26,479
Speaker 1: you inspire me to be through what you've been through

1238
01:06:26,680 --> 01:06:28,760
Speaker 1: and come out with this attitude and the way that

1239
01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:32,400
Speaker 1: you're approaching life. Louise, I hope you're a good person.

1240
01:06:33,160 --> 01:06:36,480
Speaker 1: You are a good person. I've really enjoyed the chat.

1241
01:06:36,680 --> 01:06:39,800
Speaker 1: You have taken me into something, into a situation that

1242
01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:43,880
Speaker 1: a deeply personal situation. But I think anyone that's listening's

1243
01:06:43,920 --> 01:06:46,360
Speaker 1: got a now clearer idea of what went on in

1244
01:06:46,360 --> 01:06:49,680
Speaker 1: those sixteen hours of terror and the horror of it.

1245
01:06:49,720 --> 01:06:52,280
Speaker 1: But I also think they'll find some inspiration in the

1246
01:06:52,280 --> 01:06:55,280
Speaker 1: way that you've coped with what you've been through and

1247
01:06:55,320 --> 01:06:58,080
Speaker 1: what you're focusing on now. So it's been an absolute

1248
01:06:58,080 --> 01:07:03,959
Speaker 1: pleasure having you on Eye Catch Killers. Thank you, cheers well.

1249
01:07:04,760 --> 01:07:07,920
Speaker 1: Louisa took us right inside the linked cafe suage. That

1250
01:07:08,080 --> 01:07:12,200
Speaker 1: was her explaining what happened in there and the emotions

1251
01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:14,200
Speaker 1: as she went through the highs and layers, thinking she

1252
01:07:14,280 --> 01:07:16,360
Speaker 1: was going to be killed, thinking that's the last moment

1253
01:07:17,120 --> 01:07:20,160
Speaker 1: in her life just really blew me away. But more

1254
01:07:20,200 --> 01:07:23,320
Speaker 1: importantly is her attitude for what she came out after

1255
01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:26,480
Speaker 1: being a hostage in the terrorst situation and the outlook

1256
01:07:26,520 --> 01:07:28,600
Speaker 1: she has on life. I think she's a really beautiful

1257
01:07:28,680 --> 01:07:30,320
Speaker 1: lady and I love talking to her.