WEBVTT - What Yahya Sinwar’s death means for the war in the Middle East

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<v Speaker 1>From Schwartz Media. I'm Daniel James. This is seven am

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<v Speaker 1>a must leader. Yayazinha was top of Israel's most wanted

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<v Speaker 1>list for his role as the architect of the October

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<v Speaker 1>seven attacks before he was killed last week. He had

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<v Speaker 1>managed to evade Israeli intelligence all year. He was thought

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<v Speaker 1>to be hidden in tunnels under Gaza, possibly using hostages

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<v Speaker 1>as human shields, but it wasn't sophisticated intelligence that did

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<v Speaker 1>him in. In the end, his death came as something

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<v Speaker 1>of a surprise. The relatively junior soldiers who killed him

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<v Speaker 1>didn't know who he was until later. Regardless, Sinhwa's death

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<v Speaker 1>represents a significant win for Israel, with Prime Minister Benjamin

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<v Speaker 1>net and Yahoo describing it as a settling of the score. Today,

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<v Speaker 1>host of the ABC podcast Take Me to Your Leader

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<v Speaker 1>and former Middle East correspondent hay Mish McDonald on Yahya

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<v Speaker 1>Sinhwar's legacy and how his death were really shaped the

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<v Speaker 1>conflict in the Middle East. It's Monday, October twenty one, Hamish,

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<v Speaker 1>As we know, Israeli troops killed Yahya Sinoa last week.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you tell me how it happened?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, pretty extraordinary set of circumstances, and in a way,

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<v Speaker 2>the ultimate scenario came about by accident. It was actually

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<v Speaker 2>a fairly junior brigade of Israeli troops that stumbled upon him.

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<v Speaker 2>Initially it was a drone that flew into an abandoned

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<v Speaker 2>building in the Gaza strip and they found a fighter

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<v Speaker 2>a militant inside.

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<v Speaker 3>It was idea of reservist, not special lots, who came

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<v Speaker 3>across him, what by chance during a routine operation in

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<v Speaker 3>Rafa yesterday, flying that drone into a building after a

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<v Speaker 3>gun battle, spotting an armed man sitting in a chair,

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<v Speaker 3>his face covered and bleeding after being shot.

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<v Speaker 2>When you look at the video, and bearing in mind

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<v Speaker 2>Israel has released the video footage from the drone, it's

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<v Speaker 2>not obvious that it is ya Ya Sinoa. His head's

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<v Speaker 2>wrapped in a kafir scarf, he's covered in dust. And

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<v Speaker 2>then there's this moment where after staring at the drone

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<v Speaker 2>for quite a number of seconds, he then throws a

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<v Speaker 2>stick towards it. It's a futile attempt, but obviously many

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<v Speaker 2>in Gaza are interpreting it as a final act of defiance.

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<v Speaker 4>A mass which is reeling from the killing. It was

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<v Speaker 4>accused Israeli military of blatant lights and a failed theatrical

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<v Speaker 4>performance in its portrayal of Sinoa during that past twelve

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<v Speaker 4>months as a statement.

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<v Speaker 2>Moments later, we're told there was a strike on that building.

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<v Speaker 2>There's also some reporting suggesting that an Israeli soldier entered

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<v Speaker 2>and shot him. It was afterwards that they noticed the

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<v Speaker 2>resemblance to ya Ya Sinhwa, and there's a number of

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<v Speaker 2>features apparently that they were looking for, one of which

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<v Speaker 2>was his distinctive teeth. They then took DNA samples away,

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<v Speaker 2>and of course Sinwa had been in prison in Israel

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<v Speaker 2>for many years, so they have DNA samples of him.

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<v Speaker 2>Those were tested and Israel's confirmed that it was in

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<v Speaker 2>fact Yaya Sinowa. But given the incredible intelligence and military

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<v Speaker 2>effort that had been put in over the last year

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<v Speaker 2>to finding and killing Sinowa, it's pretty remarkable that it

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<v Speaker 2>happened this way.

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<v Speaker 1>In the end, Amishi profiled Yaya Sinoa. What can you

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<v Speaker 1>tell me about him?

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<v Speaker 2>So? Sinwa is a pretty fascinating character because his story

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<v Speaker 2>really mirrors the longer arc of the Palestinian story. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>he was brought up in one of these refugee camps

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<v Speaker 2>in the Gaza Strip. His parents had been dispossessed early on,

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<v Speaker 2>and really the chapters of his life mirror the various

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<v Speaker 2>stages of fighting and conflict and then a sort of

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<v Speaker 2>dulling down of that acrimony at different times. He's been

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<v Speaker 2>in prison a number of times in Israeli prisons, but

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<v Speaker 2>really where he emerged as a figure within the militancy

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<v Speaker 2>of the Gaza Strip was in the early days, the

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<v Speaker 2>early stages of Hamas, and really he was an enforcer.

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<v Speaker 2>Part of his role was to identify, look for, and

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<v Speaker 2>then punish anyone that was seen to be a collaborator

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<v Speaker 2>with the Israelis. And so he actually earned this nickname

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<v Speaker 2>the Butcher of Khan Yunus, which is part of the

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<v Speaker 2>Gaza Strip, in relation to the deaths of four Palestinians.

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<v Speaker 2>They were said to be or alleged to be collaborating

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<v Speaker 2>with the Israelis. They were identified and brutally killed, and

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<v Speaker 2>so those four deaths, as well as the deaths of

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<v Speaker 2>two Israeli soldiers, that ultimately led him to being captured

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<v Speaker 2>by the Israelis, interrogated, and then ended up in an

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<v Speaker 2>Israeli prison for a pretty significant amount of time.

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<v Speaker 1>So what do you know about that time in prison

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<v Speaker 1>and how it's shaped him.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it was formative and a lot has been written

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<v Speaker 2>and said about this because during that time he started

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<v Speaker 2>to identify with other Palestinians that were held in the

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<v Speaker 2>Israeli prison system. But he also learnt and studied Hebrew.

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<v Speaker 2>He studied Israeli and Jewish history and culture. He really

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to use that time to get to know what

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<v Speaker 2>he saw as his enemy. He thought this was a

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<v Speaker 2>strategic way of getting his head around what their vulnerabilities

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<v Speaker 2>and weaknesses were. We spoke to the guy that interrogated him.

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<v Speaker 5>You are speaking now direct with the interrogator of Hinwah

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<v Speaker 5>and knew him better than his mother and mother better

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<v Speaker 5>than anybody in the world.

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<v Speaker 2>His name is Michael Koobi. He's a former senior intelligence

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<v Speaker 2>officer eventually led the Shinbert. He said that he got

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<v Speaker 2>to know Sinwha better than his mother did, better than

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<v Speaker 2>he probably knew himself. Such was the depth of those interrogations.

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<v Speaker 2>How many hours in total did you you interrogate ya

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<v Speaker 2>Ya Sinha?

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<v Speaker 5>For I interrogated all the Hamas leaders, include the Arsinoir.

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<v Speaker 5>He himself, I interrogeted more than one hundred and eighty

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<v Speaker 5>hours during two months. Of course, I started speaking with him.

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<v Speaker 5>He said, if you want to kill me, kill me.

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<v Speaker 5>I want to be a shahid. That was the first

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<v Speaker 5>sentence that he stated the interrogation.

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<v Speaker 2>She Hid is a masa.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, that's right. So I told him, look, you're not

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<v Speaker 5>going to be shahid.

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<v Speaker 2>So what's really striking about the comments from Michael Kirby

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<v Speaker 2>when I sat down and spoke to him this year,

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<v Speaker 2>is that these interrogations that he conducted with Sinuatu place

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<v Speaker 2>in nineteen eighty eight, so we're talking about decades ago.

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<v Speaker 2>And what he points out is that he then said

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<v Speaker 2>he wanted to be a master.

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<v Speaker 5>So I took him immediately to my rooms in war

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<v Speaker 5>start opening his mouth, and he told me about the Hammas,

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<v Speaker 5>about their plan, how they want to enter to Israeli Kibutim,

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<v Speaker 5>to Israeli settlement, to Israeli cities, how they built their

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<v Speaker 5>power at that time that they haven't missed yet. They

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<v Speaker 5>have only arms and weapons that they got from Sainae.

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<v Speaker 5>You know. He told me that they plan to kill

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<v Speaker 5>many many goose. That was the plan look at.

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<v Speaker 2>And he also detailed specific plans that he had in

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<v Speaker 2>his mind for storming over outside of Gaza into Southern Israel,

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<v Speaker 2>going into the kibbutz and killing and taking prisoners from

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<v Speaker 2>Southern Israel. So I guess, given what's happened on October

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<v Speaker 2>seventh and since, puts that into a vastly sharper light.

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<v Speaker 1>In twenty eleven, Yeah, yeah, Sinma was released as part

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<v Speaker 1>of a massive prisoner swap. Israel freed more than a

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<v Speaker 1>thousand prisoners in exchange for a single Israeli soldier who

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<v Speaker 1>been captured by Hamas. Once out, Sinewa rose through the

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<v Speaker 1>ranks of a mass becoming the military leader in Gaza

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<v Speaker 1>before taking over as political and military leader earlier this

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<v Speaker 1>year after the break. The future of Hamas Now that

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<v Speaker 1>Sinhwara is gone, I much. Now that Yahyah Sinwara is dead,

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<v Speaker 1>what does that mean for Hamas?

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<v Speaker 2>So the death of Sinowa is a serious blow to Hamas,

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<v Speaker 2>but of course it does not kill off Hamas as

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<v Speaker 2>an organization. There will be a new leader, but at

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<v Speaker 2>the moment it's not obvious exactly who it will be.

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<v Speaker 2>What some are hoping is that this moment may present

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<v Speaker 2>an opportunity for Israel to deal with whoever the new

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<v Speaker 2>leader or leaders are that emerge to offer them some

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<v Speaker 2>kind of relief, if you like, from the conflict, even

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<v Speaker 2>you know, some assurance that they won't be killed. In

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<v Speaker 2>return for the remaining hostages.

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<v Speaker 6>Hamas is holding one hundred and one hostages in Gaza

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<v Speaker 6>or citizens of twenty three countries, citizens of Israel, but

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<v Speaker 6>citizens of many other countries. Israel is committed to doing

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<v Speaker 6>everything in our power to bring all of them home,

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<v Speaker 6>and Israel will guarantee the safety of all those who

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<v Speaker 6>return our hostages. But to those who would harm our hostages,

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<v Speaker 6>I have another message. Israel will hunt you down and

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<v Speaker 6>bring you to justice.

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<v Speaker 2>That said, given where this conflict is, it's possible that

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<v Speaker 2>Israel simply makes the decision that it has Hamas on

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<v Speaker 2>the back foot, that it is bit by bit taking

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<v Speaker 2>out the leadership and the capabilities of Hamas, and that

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<v Speaker 2>it can find its own way to those hostages. But

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<v Speaker 2>there's an entirely different part to this question, which is

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<v Speaker 2>not just about what the practical implications are for her

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<v Speaker 2>mass and whether Hamas Is been damaged through the death

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<v Speaker 2>of Sinwa, but Israel itself has this discussion and often

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<v Speaker 2>about whether what's happened since October seven is actually destroying,

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<v Speaker 2>pulling apart the idea of Hamas, or simply emboldening it.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, we obviously know the numbers of civilians killed

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<v Speaker 2>in Gaza since October seven, but there's also young people

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<v Speaker 2>that are living through this and surviving. What does this

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<v Speaker 2>experience do to them? Does this make them afraid of

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<v Speaker 2>Israel in the future, or does this give them some

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<v Speaker 2>kind of strength and resolve to continue the fight that

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<v Speaker 2>Yaya Sinowa has so clearly marked out. You know, part

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<v Speaker 2>of the calculation for Israel right now is it's trying

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<v Speaker 2>to say to the neighborhood, the penalty for acting against us,

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<v Speaker 2>for threatening us is too great. Whether or not that's

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<v Speaker 2>the way it's being interpreted, I think it's too soon

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<v Speaker 2>for us to know.

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<v Speaker 1>How do you think the death of Sinwaal will change

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<v Speaker 1>Israel's plans in the region.

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<v Speaker 2>Clearly, this does change things. But similarly, you know, there's

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<v Speaker 2>also fresh reporting out about an intelligence leak from the

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<v Speaker 2>United States over the weekend that shows that Israel has

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<v Speaker 2>preparations in place to strike at Iran Directly, there's been

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<v Speaker 2>no let up in the fighting against Tesbola in Lebanon.

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<v Speaker 2>There's also been no real sign that fighting is let

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<v Speaker 2>up in the Gaza Strip either. So you know, clearly

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<v Speaker 2>there is this intention to get the hostages back. But

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<v Speaker 2>given you know, I keep going back to some of

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<v Speaker 2>the initial conversations I had with current and former Israeli

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<v Speaker 2>intelligence and military leaders in the days after October seven,

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<v Speaker 2>and you'll also remember some of this from nettna Who's

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<v Speaker 2>own public commentary. He talked about wanting to create a

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<v Speaker 2>new reality for Israel in the Middle East, that whatever

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<v Speaker 2>it was, you know, before October seven, would not be

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<v Speaker 2>the case after. And so I think it's always worth

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<v Speaker 2>bearing that in mind in terms of trying to charge

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<v Speaker 2>or estimate what it is that Netnyahu and the Israeli

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<v Speaker 2>military are prepared to do in terms of seeking the

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<v Speaker 2>outcomes that they want. There's been so much pressure domestically

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<v Speaker 2>in Israel all the way along. You know, it's not

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<v Speaker 2>one homogeneous grouping. There's a lot of disagreement. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>remember there was a war cabinet that's fallen apart. There's

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<v Speaker 2>also a kind of creaky coalition government in place. But Netnya,

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<v Speaker 2>who's popularity ratings in Israel, it must be said, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>have really bounced back in recent months as he's stepped

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<v Speaker 2>up a gear in terms of taking the fight, particularly

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<v Speaker 2>to Hesbalah.

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<v Speaker 1>Hey mich Does this moment get us any closer to

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<v Speaker 1>a cease fire or last in peace?

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<v Speaker 2>Look, there's some that hope it will. Certainly in Washington,

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<v Speaker 2>optimism is probably too strong a term, but the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that Sinoa was so critical to any decisions around hostage releases.

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<v Speaker 2>Remember that even though he was underneath Gaza in this

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<v Speaker 2>tunnel system for many months, using human couriers to get

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<v Speaker 2>messages to and from him back to negotiators in Doha,

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<v Speaker 2>he was the individual who had the decision on any

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<v Speaker 2>hostage release. And it may be it may be possible

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<v Speaker 2>that whoever replaces him may take a different view, that

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<v Speaker 2>perhaps this is an opportunity for a different course to

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<v Speaker 2>be charted. But certainly the messaging that's coming out of

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<v Speaker 2>Hamas and its backers like Iran would not suggest that

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<v Speaker 2>now is necessarily a mood or a climate for peace.

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<v Speaker 1>Amish, thank you so much for your time, Thanks for

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<v Speaker 1>having me. You can listen to Hamis McDonald's profile of

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<v Speaker 1>Yaya Sinoa on his podcast Take Me to Your Leader.

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<v Speaker 1>The new season is all about dictators and demagogues and

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<v Speaker 1>it's out now, also in the use today, Bianto has

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<v Speaker 1>been sworn in as Indonesia's new president. Sabiante replaces outcoming

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<v Speaker 1>President Joco Woododo, who has led the world's third largest

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<v Speaker 1>democracy for the past decade. Seventy three year old President

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<v Speaker 1>Sabianto is a former special forces commander who won the

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<v Speaker 1>February election with nearly sixty percent of the vote and

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<v Speaker 1>Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that the people

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<v Speaker 1>who attempted to assassinate him by targeting his home with

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<v Speaker 1>a drone have made a bit of mistake.

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<v Speaker 5>Now.

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<v Speaker 1>The hero's wife were at home at the time of

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<v Speaker 1>the attempted attack, according to a spokesman for the Prime minister.

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<v Speaker 1>While Hezbilla did not claim responsibility for the drone attack,

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<v Speaker 1>the group said it carried out several rocket attacks on

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<v Speaker 1>northern and central Israel. I'm Daniel James. This is seven AM.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks for listening, and if you haven't yet, please take

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<v Speaker 1>a listen to the three parts series we aired last week.

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<v Speaker 1>It's called This is Alice Springs and it's in your

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<v Speaker 1>feed now.

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<v Speaker 2>M