Speaker 1: From Schwartz Media. I'm Daniel James. This is seven am
Speaker 1: a must leader. Yayazinha was top of Israel's most wanted
Speaker 1: list for his role as the architect of the October
Speaker 1: seven attacks before he was killed last week. He had
Speaker 1: managed to evade Israeli intelligence all year. He was thought
Speaker 1: to be hidden in tunnels under Gaza, possibly using hostages
Speaker 1: as human shields, but it wasn't sophisticated intelligence that did
Speaker 1: him in. In the end, his death came as something
Speaker 1: of a surprise. The relatively junior soldiers who killed him
Speaker 1: didn't know who he was until later. Regardless, Sinhwa's death
Speaker 1: represents a significant win for Israel, with Prime Minister Benjamin
Speaker 1: net and Yahoo describing it as a settling of the score. Today,
Speaker 1: host of the ABC podcast Take Me to Your Leader
Speaker 1: and former Middle East correspondent hay Mish McDonald on Yahya
Speaker 1: Sinhwar's legacy and how his death were really shaped the
Speaker 1: conflict in the Middle East. It's Monday, October twenty one, Hamish,
Speaker 1: As we know, Israeli troops killed Yahya Sinoa last week.
Speaker 1: Can you tell me how it happened?
Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty extraordinary set of circumstances, and in a way,
Speaker 2: the ultimate scenario came about by accident. It was actually
Speaker 2: a fairly junior brigade of Israeli troops that stumbled upon him.
Speaker 2: Initially it was a drone that flew into an abandoned
Speaker 2: building in the Gaza strip and they found a fighter
Speaker 2: a militant inside.
Speaker 3: It was idea of reservist, not special lots, who came
Speaker 3: across him, what by chance during a routine operation in
Speaker 3: Rafa yesterday, flying that drone into a building after a
Speaker 3: gun battle, spotting an armed man sitting in a chair,
Speaker 3: his face covered and bleeding after being shot.
Speaker 2: When you look at the video, and bearing in mind
Speaker 2: Israel has released the video footage from the drone, it's
Speaker 2: not obvious that it is ya Ya Sinoa. His head's
Speaker 2: wrapped in a kafir scarf, he's covered in dust. And
Speaker 2: then there's this moment where after staring at the drone
Speaker 2: for quite a number of seconds, he then throws a
Speaker 2: stick towards it. It's a futile attempt, but obviously many
Speaker 2: in Gaza are interpreting it as a final act of defiance.
Speaker 4: A mass which is reeling from the killing. It was
Speaker 4: accused Israeli military of blatant lights and a failed theatrical
Speaker 4: performance in its portrayal of Sinoa during that past twelve
Speaker 4: months as a statement.
Speaker 2: Moments later, we're told there was a strike on that building.
Speaker 2: There's also some reporting suggesting that an Israeli soldier entered
Speaker 2: and shot him. It was afterwards that they noticed the
Speaker 2: resemblance to ya Ya Sinhwa, and there's a number of
Speaker 2: features apparently that they were looking for, one of which
Speaker 2: was his distinctive teeth. They then took DNA samples away,
Speaker 2: and of course Sinwa had been in prison in Israel
Speaker 2: for many years, so they have DNA samples of him.
Speaker 2: Those were tested and Israel's confirmed that it was in
Speaker 2: fact Yaya Sinowa. But given the incredible intelligence and military
Speaker 2: effort that had been put in over the last year
Speaker 2: to finding and killing Sinowa, it's pretty remarkable that it
Speaker 2: happened this way.
Speaker 1: In the end, Amishi profiled Yaya Sinoa. What can you
Speaker 1: tell me about him?
Speaker 2: So? Sinwa is a pretty fascinating character because his story
Speaker 2: really mirrors the longer arc of the Palestinian story. You know,
Speaker 2: he was brought up in one of these refugee camps
Speaker 2: in the Gaza Strip. His parents had been dispossessed early on,
Speaker 2: and really the chapters of his life mirror the various
Speaker 2: stages of fighting and conflict and then a sort of
Speaker 2: dulling down of that acrimony at different times. He's been
Speaker 2: in prison a number of times in Israeli prisons, but
Speaker 2: really where he emerged as a figure within the militancy
Speaker 2: of the Gaza Strip was in the early days, the
Speaker 2: early stages of Hamas, and really he was an enforcer.
Speaker 2: Part of his role was to identify, look for, and
Speaker 2: then punish anyone that was seen to be a collaborator
Speaker 2: with the Israelis. And so he actually earned this nickname
Speaker 2: the Butcher of Khan Yunus, which is part of the
Speaker 2: Gaza Strip, in relation to the deaths of four Palestinians.
Speaker 2: They were said to be or alleged to be collaborating
Speaker 2: with the Israelis. They were identified and brutally killed, and
Speaker 2: so those four deaths, as well as the deaths of
Speaker 2: two Israeli soldiers, that ultimately led him to being captured
Speaker 2: by the Israelis, interrogated, and then ended up in an
Speaker 2: Israeli prison for a pretty significant amount of time.
Speaker 1: So what do you know about that time in prison
Speaker 1: and how it's shaped him.
Speaker 2: Well, it was formative and a lot has been written
Speaker 2: and said about this because during that time he started
Speaker 2: to identify with other Palestinians that were held in the
Speaker 2: Israeli prison system. But he also learnt and studied Hebrew.
Speaker 2: He studied Israeli and Jewish history and culture. He really
Speaker 2: wanted to use that time to get to know what
Speaker 2: he saw as his enemy. He thought this was a
Speaker 2: strategic way of getting his head around what their vulnerabilities
Speaker 2: and weaknesses were. We spoke to the guy that interrogated him.
Speaker 5: You are speaking now direct with the interrogator of Hinwah
Speaker 5: and knew him better than his mother and mother better
Speaker 5: than anybody in the world.
Speaker 2: His name is Michael Koobi. He's a former senior intelligence
Speaker 2: officer eventually led the Shinbert. He said that he got
Speaker 2: to know Sinwha better than his mother did, better than
Speaker 2: he probably knew himself. Such was the depth of those interrogations.
Speaker 2: How many hours in total did you you interrogate ya
Speaker 2: Ya Sinha?
Speaker 5: For I interrogated all the Hamas leaders, include the Arsinoir.
Speaker 5: He himself, I interrogeted more than one hundred and eighty
Speaker 5: hours during two months. Of course, I started speaking with him.
Speaker 5: He said, if you want to kill me, kill me.
Speaker 5: I want to be a shahid. That was the first
Speaker 5: sentence that he stated the interrogation.
Speaker 2: She Hid is a masa.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's right. So I told him, look, you're not
Speaker 5: going to be shahid.
Speaker 2: So what's really striking about the comments from Michael Kirby
Speaker 2: when I sat down and spoke to him this year,
Speaker 2: is that these interrogations that he conducted with Sinuatu place
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty eight, so we're talking about decades ago.
Speaker 2: And what he points out is that he then said
Speaker 2: he wanted to be a master.
Speaker 5: So I took him immediately to my rooms in war
Speaker 5: start opening his mouth, and he told me about the Hammas,
Speaker 5: about their plan, how they want to enter to Israeli Kibutim,
Speaker 5: to Israeli settlement, to Israeli cities, how they built their
Speaker 5: power at that time that they haven't missed yet. They
Speaker 5: have only arms and weapons that they got from Sainae.
Speaker 5: You know. He told me that they plan to kill
Speaker 5: many many goose. That was the plan look at.
Speaker 2: And he also detailed specific plans that he had in
Speaker 2: his mind for storming over outside of Gaza into Southern Israel,
Speaker 2: going into the kibbutz and killing and taking prisoners from
Speaker 2: Southern Israel. So I guess, given what's happened on October
Speaker 2: seventh and since, puts that into a vastly sharper light.
Speaker 1: In twenty eleven, Yeah, yeah, Sinma was released as part
Speaker 1: of a massive prisoner swap. Israel freed more than a
Speaker 1: thousand prisoners in exchange for a single Israeli soldier who
Speaker 1: been captured by Hamas. Once out, Sinewa rose through the
Speaker 1: ranks of a mass becoming the military leader in Gaza
Speaker 1: before taking over as political and military leader earlier this
Speaker 1: year after the break. The future of Hamas Now that
Speaker 1: Sinhwara is gone, I much. Now that Yahyah Sinwara is dead,
Speaker 1: what does that mean for Hamas?
Speaker 2: So the death of Sinowa is a serious blow to Hamas,
Speaker 2: but of course it does not kill off Hamas as
Speaker 2: an organization. There will be a new leader, but at
Speaker 2: the moment it's not obvious exactly who it will be.
Speaker 2: What some are hoping is that this moment may present
Speaker 2: an opportunity for Israel to deal with whoever the new
Speaker 2: leader or leaders are that emerge to offer them some
Speaker 2: kind of relief, if you like, from the conflict, even
Speaker 2: you know, some assurance that they won't be killed. In
Speaker 2: return for the remaining hostages.
Speaker 6: Hamas is holding one hundred and one hostages in Gaza
Speaker 6: or citizens of twenty three countries, citizens of Israel, but
Speaker 6: citizens of many other countries. Israel is committed to doing
Speaker 6: everything in our power to bring all of them home,
Speaker 6: and Israel will guarantee the safety of all those who
Speaker 6: return our hostages. But to those who would harm our hostages,
Speaker 6: I have another message. Israel will hunt you down and
Speaker 6: bring you to justice.
Speaker 2: That said, given where this conflict is, it's possible that
Speaker 2: Israel simply makes the decision that it has Hamas on
Speaker 2: the back foot, that it is bit by bit taking
Speaker 2: out the leadership and the capabilities of Hamas, and that
Speaker 2: it can find its own way to those hostages. But
Speaker 2: there's an entirely different part to this question, which is
Speaker 2: not just about what the practical implications are for her
Speaker 2: mass and whether Hamas Is been damaged through the death
Speaker 2: of Sinwa, but Israel itself has this discussion and often
Speaker 2: about whether what's happened since October seven is actually destroying,
Speaker 2: pulling apart the idea of Hamas, or simply emboldening it.
Speaker 2: I mean, we obviously know the numbers of civilians killed
Speaker 2: in Gaza since October seven, but there's also young people
Speaker 2: that are living through this and surviving. What does this
Speaker 2: experience do to them? Does this make them afraid of
Speaker 2: Israel in the future, or does this give them some
Speaker 2: kind of strength and resolve to continue the fight that
Speaker 2: Yaya Sinowa has so clearly marked out. You know, part
Speaker 2: of the calculation for Israel right now is it's trying
Speaker 2: to say to the neighborhood, the penalty for acting against us,
Speaker 2: for threatening us is too great. Whether or not that's
Speaker 2: the way it's being interpreted, I think it's too soon
Speaker 2: for us to know.
Speaker 1: How do you think the death of Sinwaal will change
Speaker 1: Israel's plans in the region.
Speaker 2: Clearly, this does change things. But similarly, you know, there's
Speaker 2: also fresh reporting out about an intelligence leak from the
Speaker 2: United States over the weekend that shows that Israel has
Speaker 2: preparations in place to strike at Iran Directly, there's been
Speaker 2: no let up in the fighting against Tesbola in Lebanon.
Speaker 2: There's also been no real sign that fighting is let
Speaker 2: up in the Gaza Strip either. So you know, clearly
Speaker 2: there is this intention to get the hostages back. But
Speaker 2: given you know, I keep going back to some of
Speaker 2: the initial conversations I had with current and former Israeli
Speaker 2: intelligence and military leaders in the days after October seven,
Speaker 2: and you'll also remember some of this from nettna Who's
Speaker 2: own public commentary. He talked about wanting to create a
Speaker 2: new reality for Israel in the Middle East, that whatever
Speaker 2: it was, you know, before October seven, would not be
Speaker 2: the case after. And so I think it's always worth
Speaker 2: bearing that in mind in terms of trying to charge
Speaker 2: or estimate what it is that Netnyahu and the Israeli
Speaker 2: military are prepared to do in terms of seeking the
Speaker 2: outcomes that they want. There's been so much pressure domestically
Speaker 2: in Israel all the way along. You know, it's not
Speaker 2: one homogeneous grouping. There's a lot of disagreement. You know,
Speaker 2: remember there was a war cabinet that's fallen apart. There's
Speaker 2: also a kind of creaky coalition government in place. But Netnya,
Speaker 2: who's popularity ratings in Israel, it must be said, you know,
Speaker 2: have really bounced back in recent months as he's stepped
Speaker 2: up a gear in terms of taking the fight, particularly
Speaker 2: to Hesbalah.
Speaker 1: Hey mich Does this moment get us any closer to
Speaker 1: a cease fire or last in peace?
Speaker 2: Look, there's some that hope it will. Certainly in Washington,
Speaker 2: optimism is probably too strong a term, but the fact
Speaker 2: that Sinoa was so critical to any decisions around hostage releases.
Speaker 2: Remember that even though he was underneath Gaza in this
Speaker 2: tunnel system for many months, using human couriers to get
Speaker 2: messages to and from him back to negotiators in Doha,
Speaker 2: he was the individual who had the decision on any
Speaker 2: hostage release. And it may be it may be possible
Speaker 2: that whoever replaces him may take a different view, that
Speaker 2: perhaps this is an opportunity for a different course to
Speaker 2: be charted. But certainly the messaging that's coming out of
Speaker 2: Hamas and its backers like Iran would not suggest that
Speaker 2: now is necessarily a mood or a climate for peace.
Speaker 1: Amish, thank you so much for your time, Thanks for
Speaker 1: having me. You can listen to Hamis McDonald's profile of
Speaker 1: Yaya Sinoa on his podcast Take Me to Your Leader.
Speaker 1: The new season is all about dictators and demagogues and
Speaker 1: it's out now, also in the use today, Bianto has
Speaker 1: been sworn in as Indonesia's new president. Sabiante replaces outcoming
Speaker 1: President Joco Woododo, who has led the world's third largest
Speaker 1: democracy for the past decade. Seventy three year old President
Speaker 1: Sabianto is a former special forces commander who won the
Speaker 1: February election with nearly sixty percent of the vote and
Speaker 1: Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that the people
Speaker 1: who attempted to assassinate him by targeting his home with
Speaker 1: a drone have made a bit of mistake.
Speaker 5: Now.
Speaker 1: The hero's wife were at home at the time of
Speaker 1: the attempted attack, according to a spokesman for the Prime minister.
Speaker 1: While Hezbilla did not claim responsibility for the drone attack,
Speaker 1: the group said it carried out several rocket attacks on
Speaker 1: northern and central Israel. I'm Daniel James. This is seven AM.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and if you haven't yet, please take
Speaker 1: a listen to the three parts series we aired last week.
Speaker 1: It's called This is Alice Springs and it's in your
Speaker 1: feed now.
Speaker 2: M