WEBVTT - Episode 31: The Memory Hole 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:04.720 Listeners are advised that this podcast series brow contains course 0:00:04.800 --> 0:00:08.840 language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:42.559 you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian. When you 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:46.440 are standing on Sandstone Crescent and facing south, the house 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:50.320 in which deb and Murray have lived for almost forty 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:53.720 years is to the left of John and Bromwan's old home. 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:58.319 To the right of what Bromin called John's Castle is 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:02.480 the house which belonged to Heather and Lloyd Hargrave. The 0:01:02.560 --> 0:01:07.160 retiree saw Bromwin on Friday May fourteen, nineteen ninety three. 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:12.959 Bromwyn was very upset she could not get inside her home, 0:01:13.319 --> 0:01:17.760 John's Castle, with Lauren and Crystal. You'll recall that a 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:22.160 locksmith was called at the inquest in Lismore. The police 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:26.240 officer Matt Fordham called Heather and then Lloyd as witnesses. 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:30.920 They appeared after Deb Hall and just before Murray Nolan. 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:33.920 And you say, ma'am that at the time you had 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:36.839 the conversation with Bromwin about the locks and the keys 0:01:36.880 --> 0:01:40.360 to her house, that she was very upset and she 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:43.120 was crying, and she said that John had threatened to 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:45.720 take the children from her. The same as he had 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:48.600 done to his first wife and taken Jody from her. 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:51.920 Was there any other conversation that you can recall that 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:53.840 Bronwyn said to you at this time. 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:55.000 Yes. 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:58.480 She also said that she didn't have any access to money, 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:02.080 that John had closed to credit card and she didn't 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:06.120 have any money well. She also said that Crystal wasn't 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:09.800 his child, that she had her before she married John. 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:15.280 Heather told the inquest that after Bromin's disappearance, it was 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:18.800 simply said that the mother of two went missing. 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:22.600 And I don't have any idea because I really knew 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:25.839 nothing of their private life, and as far as I knew, 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:28.320 they seemed to get on all right. Whenever we were 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:32.280 in their company. We never found them quarreling or anything. 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:37.280 Lloyd Hargrave could no longer recall Bromwin having disclosed any 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:41.240 fears about losing her children to John, although that detail 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:45.520 was in Lloyd's statement of four years earlier. Heather and 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:47.399 Lloyd have since died. 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:51.120 And so in your statement you say that about twelve 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:54.480 or eighteen months prior to September nineteen ninety eight, you 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:58.160 spoke with Jonathan Winfield and inquired from him if he 0:02:58.200 --> 0:03:01.880 had heard any information regarding Bronwyn, and Sir you say 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:04.240 that he said something to the effect that he believed 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:07.440 that Bronwyn had been cited in Brisbane, but that that 0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:10.040 was all the details that you were able to obtain 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:12.680 from him. Have you heard any other theories as to 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:14.160 what may have happened to Bronwyn? 0:03:15.360 --> 0:03:18.280 I did hear from someone, and I'm not certain who 0:03:18.320 --> 0:03:22.480 it was, that investigations had taken place as far afield 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:26.120 as New Zealand and Brisbane. That's about as far as 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:26.560 I knew. 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:31.480 John's lawyer had just a couple of questions for Lloyd Hargrave. 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:35.920 Craig Leggett asked whether Lloyd saw any signs of a 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:39.520 scuffle or a disturbance when he went into the house 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:41.880 with Murray Nolan several days later. 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:42.800 No. 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:46.120 At the time we entered the house, I have to 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:50.200 admit I wasn't sure why I was going in other 0:03:50.400 --> 0:03:54.160 than to accompany Murray because naturally he didn't want to 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:58.200 go in there unaccompanied. I was solely looking for any 0:03:58.320 --> 0:04:00.920 signs of the presence of Brone. 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:04.800 It was a big day for Bromwin and John's neighbors. 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:09.000 After deb Hall and then the hard Graves were finished, 0:04:09.200 --> 0:04:13.680 Deb's partner, Murray Nolan, went forward. At an early stage 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:17.240 of the questioning by Matt Fordham, we were reminded about 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:22.400 Murray's back injury and his hospitalization. He had arrived home 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:26.000 from the hospital about two pm on Saturday May fifteen. 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:28.920 Were you taking any medication for the pain? 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:32.279 I had a prescription for panadine fort at the time. 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:35.080 I wasn't too keen to take the panadine fort because 0:04:35.120 --> 0:04:37.880 I just I don't like taking to me of those drugs, 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:40.719 and I tried to handle my pain. I tried to 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:43.000 build a pain threshold up from my injury. 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:45.880 And so when you take panadine forought, does it affect 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:47.560 your sense of what's happening around you. 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:51.600 I still remain coherent. I can probably have a conversation, 0:04:51.680 --> 0:04:54.320 but probably after twenty minutes, I just tend to go 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:56.880 to sleep. That's why I use it for my injury, 0:04:57.600 --> 0:04:59.320 maybe so I could just go to sleep. 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:03.440 Has there been any time when you've had delusions after 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:08.039 taking panadine for it? No, sir, had you ever seen 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:11.880 before sixteen May ninety three, had you ever seen that car, 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:15.320 that white Falcon being rolled down the driveway without lights 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:18.600 on or without its engine on before, Not that. 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:21.960 I've seen it roll down, but it did happen occasionally. Well, 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:24.440 John used to go away. He was going up and 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:27.800 down from Sydney to his dad's place in Nursa, and 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:30.160 so he was pretty curtiss in that way that he 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:32.279 used to leave his lights off and roll out the driveway. 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:35.279 And what times of the day or night would that 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:36.080 normally happen. 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:39.280 John Norman left probably one or two in the morning 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:41.400 on the occasions he used to go away. 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:44.560 Was that the first time that you'd ever heard that 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:46.040 car bottom out on the driveway? 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:50.279 Occasionally it did bottom out on that roadway, but not 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:53.720 as heavy as it did that day, But they actually 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:56.559 built the road up twenty five millimeters at the time. 0:05:57.240 --> 0:05:59.680 You're aware that the car remained in the family until 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:03.000 seen ninety seven. Have you since heard that car bottom 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:04.839 out on the driveway to that extent before? 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:05.560 No. 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:09.880 Murray took issue with the suggestion that it was the 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:13.880 car bottoming out a stickler for the detail. He added, 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:16.479 I think it was either the towball or the exhaust 0:06:16.560 --> 0:06:19.400 pipe because it actually dug a groove in the road. 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:22.880 He didn't see any doors opening or closing or anything 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:27.120 like that. No, and then you described the engines starting 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:29.360 and the lights coming on and the car driving off. 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:30.479 Is that correct? 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:31.360 That's right? 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:34.560 Did it appear to you as though the car had 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:37.400 been stopped right outside the vacant corner block. 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:41.600 It had gone down the bottom of Sandstone Crescent, slowly 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:44.440 turned to the left, continue on for probably eight or 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:45.919 ten meters, and then stopped. 0:06:47.240 --> 0:06:50.120 Matt Fordham prompted Murray about the phone call that he 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:54.440 had received from John Winfield, who was in Sydney. The 0:06:54.440 --> 0:06:58.640 police officer referenced Murray's nineteen ninety eight statement to police 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:01.960 and John ringing his neighbor and friend to ask him 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:05.120 to go to the house and break in. Matt Fordham 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:09.080 asked Murray whether John had volunteered anything about where bromwin 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:12.720 may have gone or what may have happened to her. 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:16.880 That phone call was quite short. John basically said Murray, 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:18.800 I want you to break into the house and have 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:21.760 a look around. I'll bring you back in fifteen minutes. 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:24.760 There was no mention of Bromman in the first phone call. 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:28.200 Maybe the second phone call, yes, I think he said, 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:31.440 was Bromman in the house. In the second phone call, 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:33.600 he asked me to hang the phone back up on 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:33.960 the hook. 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:38.920 Murray next saw John Winfield on his return from Sydney 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:43.200 with the two girls in late May. Matt Fordham questioned 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:47.560 whether on that occasion John had described any possible theories 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:50.600 of what might have happened to Brommin. No, he did not. 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:53.240 We basically didn't discuss Bromman at all. 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:58.680 John's lawyer, Craig Leggett, started with scrutiny of Murray's observations. 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:02.520 On the night of May sixth, the Ford Falcon reversing 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:06.600 from the driveway lights an engine off it's towball beneath 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:09.560 the boots, scraping the road as the metal bottomed out 0:08:09.600 --> 0:08:13.160 on the bitumen of Sandstone Crescent, and then rolling silently 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:16.600 down the hill late at night. The lawyer put to 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:20.280 Murray that as John had left the house like that before, 0:08:20.760 --> 0:08:24.560 it was not a one off, and therefore, the lawyer suggested, 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:28.400 it was unsurprising that Murray had not disclosed it to 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:31.920 police for five years until nineteen ninety eight. 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:35.120 Do you think because it wasn't a one off, that 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:37.160 is maybe the reason why he didn't sort of rush 0:08:37.160 --> 0:08:40.120 off to the police and say, look, here's something that's 0:08:40.120 --> 0:08:40.680 the one off. 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:44.440 The reason I didn't rush off to the police, which 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:46.720 is probably a bit of a mystery to you, is 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:49.920 John is a friend of mine. He was our neighbor. 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:52.560 He was my neighbor. I wasn't that keen to get 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:56.120 involved in the inquiry. I thought, if I stay out 0:08:56.120 --> 0:08:58.679 of this. In hindsight, it was the wrong thing to do, 0:08:59.160 --> 0:09:01.840 but I thought, I'll stay out of this and let 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:04.440 it all work around me and then see what happens 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:07.160 from there. And it was very relevant to me at 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:10.080 the time that the car went down without the lights 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:13.559 on and hit the driveway, rolled down the hill, started 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:15.880 down the bottom of the hill, and I kept that 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:16.760 in my own head. 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:20.920 So he spoke to Detective Discan on a number of occasions, didn't. 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:25.920 You Once Sergeant Discan or Detective Discan and Detective Tenby 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:30.000 come around to my place a few weeks later, had 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:33.400 a conversation with me and asked me a number of questions. 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:34.720 About how long did that take? 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:37.120 Do you think fifteen minutes? 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:39.720 And that was a period when you wanted to still 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:40.480 keep out of it. 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:46.080 Yes. In Murray's nineteen ninety eight statement to police, he 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:49.480 had mentioned that he possibly heard Romman's voice on the 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:53.880 Sunday morning when she was talking to Deb, Murray used 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:58.280 the word vaguely. Here's the context from that statement. He 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:02.640 had said, a vague remember Bromwin coming to our home. 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:07.720 John's lawyer knew that Murray was recovering at home, having 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:11.840 been in hospital after that painful back injury, the compression 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:15.840 of his spine in a surfing accident. I had winced 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:19.319 at his dining table when Murray and then Deb described 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:22.400 the incident and the injury to me during our first 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:25.120 face to face interviews just over a year ago. 0:10:27.960 --> 0:10:30.240 When crushed it like a can. 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:35.559 Murray was in agony after his time in hospital, and 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:38.120 when he got home he said it was the most 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:42.280 pain he had felt in his life. As you heard earlier, 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:47.440 he was using the painkiller panadeine fort but only sparingly. 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:51.080 It was a gift, a free kick for a lawyer 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:56.200 acting on instructions and seeking to challenge someone's memory. Craig 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:59.760 Leggett tried to show that Murray's evidence was a bit dodgy, 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:04.560 as he was possibly dosed with painkillers on Sunday, May sixteen, 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:09.760 and Murray's use of that word vaguely to describe one 0:11:09.800 --> 0:11:14.360 of his recollections of that Sunday morning presented an easy opening. 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:16.959 It wasn't because of the effect of anything that you'd 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:19.280 been taking by way of panadin fought or anything in 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:21.040 the morning of the sixteenth. 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:23.640 I really can't remember what drugs I took on the 0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:25.320 morning of the sixteenth. 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:29.040 John's lawyer asked Murray what time he would have gone 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:31.800 to sleep on the Sunday night, May sixteen. 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:35.800 From my recollection, I'd probably say about eleven thirty. 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:39.960 Craig Leggett wanted to know whether Murray took a panadine 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:41.280 at all that day. 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:45.400 I haven't got a recollection of taking one, and I 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:47.480 more than likely wouldn't have taken one. 0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:52.640 Now, the use of marijuana recreationally, what can you tell 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:55.480 His Worship about the extent of your involvement, if any, 0:11:56.200 --> 0:11:57.839 with marijuana recreationally. 0:11:58.679 --> 0:11:58.880 Right. 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:01.920 I am a light yeuser of marijuana and have been 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:05.760 for twenty five years since I was fifteen. I'm forty now, 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:09.120 forty one now forty two now, and I've grown marijuana 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:13.360 in my backyard, harvested that marijuana, dried that marijuana out, 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:17.079 and smoke that marijuana. Julie, I'll probably smoke marijuana once 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:20.160 a year now, back ten years ago, I was probably 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:23.720 taken it once every three months. I'd grow one plant 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:26.280 a year and that plant would last me for a year. 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:30.080 So back in nineteen ninety three, smoking about once every 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:32.720 three months. And was there any taking of the marijuana 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:35.679 to reduce pain associated with any other injuries work or 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:38.280 sport injuries at any stage of your life? 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:39.400 Not at all. 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:39.720 No. 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:42.520 I use it as a party drug, social drug. 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:45.400 Did you find that at any stage when you were 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:49.000 using marijuana daily that it had any discernible effect. 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:52.680 On your memory? No, not really, No, there were. 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:55.600 No experiences in the nature of hallucinatory type of experiences 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:58.120 or anything like that, not at all. 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:02.280 Well, I think by the time ninety three came around, 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:05.400 I don't think I was smoking marijuana at all. I 0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:08.280 didn't really take records on my marijuana use or what 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:10.720 I grew, or you ever had some or I didn't. 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:14.480 I had no plants in nineteen ninety three, but maybe 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:15.080 I might have. 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:18.560 I don't think so, can't remember one way or the other. 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:22.120 There was a bank robbery in Balna at the Commonwealth Bank, 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:25.480 and they had helicopters flying over and things like that, 0:13:25.960 --> 0:13:28.880 and I thought, this is a bit sus so I 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:31.960 pulled my plants up and never replanted them. It's been 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:34.080 a gradual decrease over twenty five years. 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:36.840 Twenty five years of consistent use. 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:40.000 You wouldn't even say it was consistent, very light use, 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:40.600 I'd call it. 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:45.240 Craig Leggett had one final question, which he started with 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:49.480 the words to be fair to mister Winfield. He asked 0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:53.400 Murray again whether it was his evidence that John had 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:56.840 left the house that night with the car's engine and 0:13:57.040 --> 0:14:02.839 lights off. Definitely, and with that Murray's evidence was completed. 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:08.080 While recording his evidence from the courtroom transcript for this episode, 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:11.239 he reflected on the focus on his use of cannabis. 0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:14.240 I was just on the truth and that was the 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:16.360 only thing they had. He went down that path and 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:19.000 he just tried to discredit me. At the time, he 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:22.520 only had one local newspaper, Northern Star, and was plastered 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:22.840 over that. 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:27.720 Murray and deb are even now still a bit sensitive 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:31.560 about the line of questioning. But John's lawyer would not 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:34.520 have been doing his job properly if he had not 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:37.760 at least tried to link Murray's smoking of the green 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:43.000 leafy material to the reliability of Murray's recollections after all, 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:47.280 Craig Leggett was literally fighting for the rest of John's life. 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:49.960 He is deb reflecting on it. 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:53.440 Well, at the time, I thought, okay, he's trying to 0:14:53.480 --> 0:14:57.400 discredit us. That was his game plan. We had Veggie 0:14:57.480 --> 0:14:59.760 ardens like we do now, and in the back corner 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:03.160 had one plant and John Murray would talk over the 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:05.280 fence and so John would see it. And this is 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:08.400 where John has picked this up. Browen was my good friend. 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:11.160 She knew we had the plan. You know, we'd laugh 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:13.080 about it and then over the years you grow out 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:14.960 of that because you have children, you move on. 0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:18.240 It's not relevant. We're responsible adults. 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:23.000 Murray mentioned that as the inquest was unfolding day by 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:26.920 day in Lismore, he maintained a friendly rapport with John. 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:29.640 Sometimes in the breaks we sat down with one another 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:30.920 and spoke to one another. 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:36.480 Matt Fordham explained the lineup going into the witness box. 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:39.760 The police officer told the Deputy State coroner would be 0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:45.840 Denise Barnard, Becky McGuire, John's daughter, Jody Bromwin's daughter Crystal. 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:50.280 But before day three was over, those in the Lismore 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:53.240 courtroom would watch a video and then it would be 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:55.480 entered as a formal exhibit. 0:15:56.400 --> 0:15:59.440 There is a videotape, your Worship, which the Officer in 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:04.000 charges recently obtained from another witness. The video apparently describes 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:07.520 the missing person and John Winfield and the two children 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:10.560 when the house was being constructed in the late eighties, 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:13.160 and I think it runs for about twenty minutes. It 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:15.600 might allow your Worship to get a better sense of 0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:18.800 the physical nature of Missus Winfield and give you some 0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:22.320 sense of her relationship to her children. I'm told that 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:25.320 they'd like to see the video now, Your Worship. 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:29.040 Craig Legott had no objection, which meant John was agreeable 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:32.960 to the family video being seen by those in the courtroom. 0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:35.920 Okay, can you give us a bit of commentary as too. 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:38.280 I think it will be fairly evident as to who 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:40.440 the persons are, but just in case there are other 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:41.280 people in the video. 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:43.560 She's got a green dress on. 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:48.320 That's bronwin Everyone in court stared ahead at the footage 0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:52.640 of Bromwan with her daughters. She was willowy, smiling and 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:56.120 fussing over the two girls. Jodie was in there too. 0:16:57.120 --> 0:17:01.520 Megan Reid recalled that it was a poignant and powerful interlude. 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:04.720 I think it was one of the neighbors, and it 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:08.280 was of a birthday party, and it shows bronwin playing 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:10.200 with the kids and how good she was with them. 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:14.040 You sid so heartbreaking, you worshiped. 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:17.600 The final matter is this I raised yesterday the potential 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:22.159 importance of Detective Sergeant Discan to your task. I'm instructed 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:26.480 detective Sergeant Discan told John Winfield that Murray Nolan had 0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:29.720 told not to beat around the bush. Mister Winfield instructs 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:34.200 me that Detective Sergeant Discin told him that Murray Nolan 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:37.800 had reported seen the car that's the Winfield car moving 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:41.760 up the hill in Sandstone Crescent. Now that's different from 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:43.960 the version that mister Nolan has recounted to the court 0:17:44.040 --> 0:17:44.600 under oath. 0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:48.640 What this is a purported conversation that Sergeant Discan had 0:17:48.720 --> 0:17:49.600 with mister Winfield. 0:17:50.760 --> 0:17:53.720 Craig Leggett acknowledged that it was, as he put it, 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:58.000 second hand hearsay, but he added that if Graham Diskin 0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:01.480 had any note of such a conversation, it might be 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:03.560 helpful in explaining the evidence. 0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:06.440 Well, I don't know what the position is with Sergeant Discin. 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:09.440 The sergeant might be able to enlighten the court. We've 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:11.359 had some discussions about it this morning. 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:15.840 That was the cue for Matt Fordham to explain Detective 0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:19.760 Discan's position in so far as being a potential witness 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:20.600 was concerned. 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:24.479 Sadly, Sir, it appears that it's fairly unlikely that Sergeant 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:27.600 Discan will be making himself available to your Worship to 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:31.400 assist you, and I do apologize for that. The position 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:34.520 is said that he's been on sick leave. It appears 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:37.199 to the officer in charge that Sergeant Discan may not 0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:41.119 be returning to work. He's informed the officer in charge 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:43.800 that he is unable to attend a police station and 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:47.480 he's unable to attend a courthouse. Your Worship, I'd like 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:50.240 to see Sergeant Discin give evidence in relation to a 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:52.960 few things in this matter, but I sadly don't think 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:56.200 that's going to occur without a warrant issued by your Worship. 0:18:57.320 --> 0:19:00.440 The Coroner's Court will adopt the same attitude as any court, 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:03.280 and that is irrespective of whether Sergeant Discin is a 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:06.680 serving police officer as of now or perhaps the civilian 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:09.520 sometime in the future. He is still a witness that's 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:12.480 compellable to come to court. And give evidence if required. 0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:15.800 That of course, is subject to his ability to give 0:19:15.840 --> 0:19:19.280 evidence in relation to illness, and generally speaking, a court 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:21.760 is not going to insist on a witness giving evidence 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:24.200 if they have a doctor's certificate to say they are 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:27.959 unfit to attend court. And I'm only assuming that he 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:31.879 has obviously some occupational health problems that relate to his duty, 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:34.360 and that if he's not able to attend the courthouse 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:37.199 or a police station, and he's making an application to 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:41.280 be discharged medically unfit from the police force, one may 0:19:41.280 --> 0:19:45.240 well wonder how effective or reliable his evidence might be. 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:49.040 In any event, Certainly I agree with Sergeant Fordham and 0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:51.919 your submissions, mister Leggett, that it would be desirable to 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:55.399 have Sergeant diskin here. There are many questions I'm sure 0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:58.399 that we would all like to ask him, and without 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:01.080 perhaps being too critical of him in his absence, which 0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:04.679 is perhaps unfair, it's certainly apparent to me, even at 0:20:04.680 --> 0:20:07.640 this stage of the inquest, that had this disappearance been 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:10.879 treated a little bit more seriously by Sergeant Discan, and 0:20:10.920 --> 0:20:14.080 perhaps if notations were made in running sheets which reflected 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:18.040 more accurately direct conversation rather than perhaps what might be 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:21.520 perceived as being summaries of what people may or may 0:20:21.560 --> 0:20:24.320 not have said. That evidence would have been far more 0:20:24.359 --> 0:20:27.560 reliable than the evidence we're relying on here. But I 0:20:27.560 --> 0:20:30.359 think it also should be remembered that this case doesn't 0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:34.560 necessarily swing on the abilities or inabilities of Sergeant Discan. 0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:37.800 There are many other questions a lot of other witnesses 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:41.440 still have to answer in these proceedings, and Sergeant I 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:43.880 might talk to you in shame is about the possibility 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:46.640 of having a drive down to Lennox Head, perhaps even 0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:47.320 this afternoon. 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:50.679 As the court room emptied at the end of the 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:54.720 third day of the inquest, Karl Milavanovitch and the police 0:20:54.760 --> 0:20:59.600 officer assisting the fact finding inquiry, Matt Fordham made plans 0:20:59.640 --> 0:21:04.320 to go to Sandstone Crescent. The deputy State Coroner had 0:21:04.400 --> 0:21:07.160 heard a lot of evidence about the house in which 0:21:07.200 --> 0:21:11.840 Broman and John lived, the driveway, the sloping road down 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:14.720 to the bottom of the hill, and the vantage point 0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:18.360 which Murray had when he saw things on that fateful 0:21:18.440 --> 0:21:22.879 Sunday night, But hearing the evidence of the physical surroundings 0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:26.119 was very different to seeing it with his own eyes. 0:21:27.119 --> 0:21:29.920 Carl went to Lennox and he took it all in, 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:33.600 and he walked across the driveway of what Bromwan called 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:38.760 John's castle. He stood outside and looked at it Bromwin's prison. 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:06.959 At ten fifteen am on the fourth day of the inquest, 0:22:07.000 --> 0:22:11.160 Bromwin's good friend Denise Barnard, stepped forward and waited patiently 0:22:11.200 --> 0:22:15.920 for the police officer Matt Fordham's gentle opening questions. Denise 0:22:16.000 --> 0:22:19.639 and her husband, lez a builder, were sometimes on a 0:22:19.680 --> 0:22:24.320 different page when it came to questioning Bronwin's fate. Denise 0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:28.479 believed that she knew Bromwin well. She regarded suggestions that 0:22:28.560 --> 0:22:32.439 the doting mother would go away, stay away and start 0:22:32.480 --> 0:22:36.320 a new life as ridiculous. But the inquest was about 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:39.639 much more than opinions and feelings. It was a fact 0:22:39.680 --> 0:22:45.480 finding exercise. What when, where, how? Questions of why had 0:22:45.560 --> 0:22:49.600 less weight they would invite opinions feelings. 0:22:50.480 --> 0:22:53.280 You say in your statement, ma'am, that Bronwin would often 0:22:53.320 --> 0:22:55.760 tell you that John appeared to be nice when he 0:22:55.840 --> 0:22:58.879 was in a group of people, but she would always say, 0:22:59.480 --> 0:23:03.199