Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series brow contains course
Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to
Speaker 1: you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian. When you
Speaker 1: are standing on Sandstone Crescent and facing south, the house
Speaker 1: in which deb and Murray have lived for almost forty
Speaker 1: years is to the left of John and Bromwan's old home.
Speaker 1: To the right of what Bromin called John's Castle is
Speaker 1: the house which belonged to Heather and Lloyd Hargrave. The
Speaker 1: retiree saw Bromwin on Friday May fourteen, nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 1: Bromwyn was very upset she could not get inside her home,
Speaker 1: John's Castle, with Lauren and Crystal. You'll recall that a
Speaker 1: locksmith was called at the inquest in Lismore. The police
Speaker 1: officer Matt Fordham called Heather and then Lloyd as witnesses.
Speaker 1: They appeared after Deb Hall and just before Murray Nolan.
Speaker 2: And you say, ma'am that at the time you had
Speaker 2: the conversation with Bromwin about the locks and the keys
Speaker 2: to her house, that she was very upset and she
Speaker 2: was crying, and she said that John had threatened to
Speaker 2: take the children from her. The same as he had
Speaker 2: done to his first wife and taken Jody from her.
Speaker 2: Was there any other conversation that you can recall that
Speaker 2: Bronwyn said to you at this time.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 3: She also said that she didn't have any access to money,
Speaker 3: that John had closed to credit card and she didn't
Speaker 3: have any money well. She also said that Crystal wasn't
Speaker 3: his child, that she had her before she married John.
Speaker 1: Heather told the inquest that after Bromin's disappearance, it was
Speaker 1: simply said that the mother of two went missing.
Speaker 3: And I don't have any idea because I really knew
Speaker 3: nothing of their private life, and as far as I knew,
Speaker 3: they seemed to get on all right. Whenever we were
Speaker 3: in their company. We never found them quarreling or anything.
Speaker 1: Lloyd Hargrave could no longer recall Bromwin having disclosed any
Speaker 1: fears about losing her children to John, although that detail
Speaker 1: was in Lloyd's statement of four years earlier. Heather and
Speaker 1: Lloyd have since died.
Speaker 2: And so in your statement you say that about twelve
Speaker 2: or eighteen months prior to September nineteen ninety eight, you
Speaker 2: spoke with Jonathan Winfield and inquired from him if he
Speaker 2: had heard any information regarding Bronwyn, and Sir you say
Speaker 2: that he said something to the effect that he believed
Speaker 2: that Bronwyn had been cited in Brisbane, but that that
Speaker 2: was all the details that you were able to obtain
Speaker 2: from him. Have you heard any other theories as to
Speaker 2: what may have happened to Bronwyn?
Speaker 4: I did hear from someone, and I'm not certain who
Speaker 4: it was, that investigations had taken place as far afield
Speaker 4: as New Zealand and Brisbane. That's about as far as
Speaker 4: I knew.
Speaker 1: John's lawyer had just a couple of questions for Lloyd Hargrave.
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett asked whether Lloyd saw any signs of a
Speaker 1: scuffle or a disturbance when he went into the house
Speaker 1: with Murray Nolan several days later.
Speaker 5: No.
Speaker 4: At the time we entered the house, I have to
Speaker 4: admit I wasn't sure why I was going in other
Speaker 4: than to accompany Murray because naturally he didn't want to
Speaker 4: go in there unaccompanied. I was solely looking for any
Speaker 4: signs of the presence of Brone.
Speaker 1: It was a big day for Bromwin and John's neighbors.
Speaker 1: After deb Hall and then the hard Graves were finished,
Speaker 1: Deb's partner, Murray Nolan, went forward. At an early stage
Speaker 1: of the questioning by Matt Fordham, we were reminded about
Speaker 1: Murray's back injury and his hospitalization. He had arrived home
Speaker 1: from the hospital about two pm on Saturday May fifteen.
Speaker 2: Were you taking any medication for the pain?
Speaker 6: I had a prescription for panadine fort at the time.
Speaker 6: I wasn't too keen to take the panadine fort because
Speaker 6: I just I don't like taking to me of those drugs,
Speaker 6: and I tried to handle my pain. I tried to
Speaker 6: build a pain threshold up from my injury.
Speaker 2: And so when you take panadine forought, does it affect
Speaker 2: your sense of what's happening around you.
Speaker 6: I still remain coherent. I can probably have a conversation,
Speaker 6: but probably after twenty minutes, I just tend to go
Speaker 6: to sleep. That's why I use it for my injury,
Speaker 6: maybe so I could just go to sleep.
Speaker 2: Has there been any time when you've had delusions after
Speaker 2: taking panadine for it? No, sir, had you ever seen
Speaker 2: before sixteen May ninety three, had you ever seen that car,
Speaker 2: that white Falcon being rolled down the driveway without lights
Speaker 2: on or without its engine on before, Not that.
Speaker 6: I've seen it roll down, but it did happen occasionally. Well,
Speaker 6: John used to go away. He was going up and
Speaker 6: down from Sydney to his dad's place in Nursa, and
Speaker 6: so he was pretty curtiss in that way that he
Speaker 6: used to leave his lights off and roll out the driveway.
Speaker 2: And what times of the day or night would that
Speaker 2: normally happen.
Speaker 6: John Norman left probably one or two in the morning
Speaker 6: on the occasions he used to go away.
Speaker 2: Was that the first time that you'd ever heard that
Speaker 2: car bottom out on the driveway?
Speaker 6: Occasionally it did bottom out on that roadway, but not
Speaker 6: as heavy as it did that day, But they actually
Speaker 6: built the road up twenty five millimeters at the time.
Speaker 2: You're aware that the car remained in the family until
Speaker 2: seen ninety seven. Have you since heard that car bottom
Speaker 2: out on the driveway to that extent before?
Speaker 7: No.
Speaker 1: Murray took issue with the suggestion that it was the
Speaker 1: car bottoming out a stickler for the detail. He added,
Speaker 1: I think it was either the towball or the exhaust
Speaker 1: pipe because it actually dug a groove in the road.
Speaker 2: He didn't see any doors opening or closing or anything
Speaker 2: like that. No, and then you described the engines starting
Speaker 2: and the lights coming on and the car driving off.
Speaker 2: Is that correct?
Speaker 1: That's right?
Speaker 2: Did it appear to you as though the car had
Speaker 2: been stopped right outside the vacant corner block.
Speaker 6: It had gone down the bottom of Sandstone Crescent, slowly
Speaker 6: turned to the left, continue on for probably eight or
Speaker 6: ten meters, and then stopped.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham prompted Murray about the phone call that he
Speaker 1: had received from John Winfield, who was in Sydney. The
Speaker 1: police officer referenced Murray's nineteen ninety eight statement to police
Speaker 1: and John ringing his neighbor and friend to ask him
Speaker 1: to go to the house and break in. Matt Fordham
Speaker 1: asked Murray whether John had volunteered anything about where bromwin
Speaker 1: may have gone or what may have happened to her.
Speaker 6: That phone call was quite short. John basically said Murray,
Speaker 6: I want you to break into the house and have
Speaker 6: a look around. I'll bring you back in fifteen minutes.
Speaker 6: There was no mention of Bromman in the first phone call.
Speaker 6: Maybe the second phone call, yes, I think he said,
Speaker 6: was Bromman in the house. In the second phone call,
Speaker 6: he asked me to hang the phone back up on
Speaker 6: the hook.
Speaker 1: Murray next saw John Winfield on his return from Sydney
Speaker 1: with the two girls in late May. Matt Fordham questioned
Speaker 1: whether on that occasion John had described any possible theories
Speaker 1: of what might have happened to Brommin. No, he did not.
Speaker 6: We basically didn't discuss Bromman at all.
Speaker 1: John's lawyer, Craig Leggett, started with scrutiny of Murray's observations.
Speaker 1: On the night of May sixth, the Ford Falcon reversing
Speaker 1: from the driveway lights an engine off it's towball beneath
Speaker 1: the boots, scraping the road as the metal bottomed out
Speaker 1: on the bitumen of Sandstone Crescent, and then rolling silently
Speaker 1: down the hill late at night. The lawyer put to
Speaker 1: Murray that as John had left the house like that before,
Speaker 1: it was not a one off, and therefore, the lawyer suggested,
Speaker 1: it was unsurprising that Murray had not disclosed it to
Speaker 1: police for five years until nineteen ninety eight.
Speaker 8: Do you think because it wasn't a one off, that
Speaker 8: is maybe the reason why he didn't sort of rush
Speaker 8: off to the police and say, look, here's something that's
Speaker 8: the one off.
Speaker 6: The reason I didn't rush off to the police, which
Speaker 6: is probably a bit of a mystery to you, is
Speaker 6: John is a friend of mine. He was our neighbor.
Speaker 6: He was my neighbor. I wasn't that keen to get
Speaker 6: involved in the inquiry. I thought, if I stay out
Speaker 6: of this. In hindsight, it was the wrong thing to do,
Speaker 6: but I thought, I'll stay out of this and let
Speaker 6: it all work around me and then see what happens
Speaker 6: from there. And it was very relevant to me at
Speaker 6: the time that the car went down without the lights
Speaker 6: on and hit the driveway, rolled down the hill, started
Speaker 6: down the bottom of the hill, and I kept that
Speaker 6: in my own head.
Speaker 8: So he spoke to Detective Discan on a number of occasions, didn't.
Speaker 6: You Once Sergeant Discan or Detective Discan and Detective Tenby
Speaker 6: come around to my place a few weeks later, had
Speaker 6: a conversation with me and asked me a number of questions.
Speaker 8: About how long did that take?
Speaker 6: Do you think fifteen minutes?
Speaker 8: And that was a period when you wanted to still
Speaker 8: keep out of it.
Speaker 1: Yes. In Murray's nineteen ninety eight statement to police, he
Speaker 1: had mentioned that he possibly heard Romman's voice on the
Speaker 1: Sunday morning when she was talking to Deb, Murray used
Speaker 1: the word vaguely. Here's the context from that statement. He
Speaker 1: had said, a vague remember Bromwin coming to our home.
Speaker 1: John's lawyer knew that Murray was recovering at home, having
Speaker 1: been in hospital after that painful back injury, the compression
Speaker 1: of his spine in a surfing accident. I had winced
Speaker 1: at his dining table when Murray and then Deb described
Speaker 1: the incident and the injury to me during our first
Speaker 1: face to face interviews just over a year ago.
Speaker 6: When crushed it like a can.
Speaker 1: Murray was in agony after his time in hospital, and
Speaker 1: when he got home he said it was the most
Speaker 1: pain he had felt in his life. As you heard earlier,
Speaker 1: he was using the painkiller panadeine fort but only sparingly.
Speaker 1: It was a gift, a free kick for a lawyer
Speaker 1: acting on instructions and seeking to challenge someone's memory. Craig
Speaker 1: Leggett tried to show that Murray's evidence was a bit dodgy,
Speaker 1: as he was possibly dosed with painkillers on Sunday, May sixteen,
Speaker 1: and Murray's use of that word vaguely to describe one
Speaker 1: of his recollections of that Sunday morning presented an easy opening.
Speaker 8: It wasn't because of the effect of anything that you'd
Speaker 8: been taking by way of panadin fought or anything in
Speaker 8: the morning of the sixteenth.
Speaker 6: I really can't remember what drugs I took on the
Speaker 6: morning of the sixteenth.
Speaker 1: John's lawyer asked Murray what time he would have gone
Speaker 1: to sleep on the Sunday night, May sixteen.
Speaker 6: From my recollection, I'd probably say about eleven thirty.
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett wanted to know whether Murray took a panadine
Speaker 1: at all that day.
Speaker 6: I haven't got a recollection of taking one, and I
Speaker 6: more than likely wouldn't have taken one.
Speaker 8: Now, the use of marijuana recreationally, what can you tell
Speaker 8: His Worship about the extent of your involvement, if any,
Speaker 8: with marijuana recreationally.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 6: I am a light yeuser of marijuana and have been
Speaker 6: for twenty five years since I was fifteen. I'm forty now,
Speaker 6: forty one now forty two now, and I've grown marijuana
Speaker 6: in my backyard, harvested that marijuana, dried that marijuana out,
Speaker 6: and smoke that marijuana. Julie, I'll probably smoke marijuana once
Speaker 6: a year now, back ten years ago, I was probably
Speaker 6: taken it once every three months. I'd grow one plant
Speaker 6: a year and that plant would last me for a year.
Speaker 8: So back in nineteen ninety three, smoking about once every
Speaker 8: three months. And was there any taking of the marijuana
Speaker 8: to reduce pain associated with any other injuries work or
Speaker 8: sport injuries at any stage of your life?
Speaker 1: Not at all.
Speaker 9: No.
Speaker 6: I use it as a party drug, social drug.
Speaker 8: Did you find that at any stage when you were
Speaker 8: using marijuana daily that it had any discernible effect.
Speaker 1: On your memory? No, not really, No, there were.
Speaker 8: No experiences in the nature of hallucinatory type of experiences
Speaker 8: or anything like that, not at all.
Speaker 6: Well, I think by the time ninety three came around,
Speaker 6: I don't think I was smoking marijuana at all. I
Speaker 6: didn't really take records on my marijuana use or what
Speaker 6: I grew, or you ever had some or I didn't.
Speaker 6: I had no plants in nineteen ninety three, but maybe
Speaker 6: I might have.
Speaker 1: I don't think so, can't remember one way or the other.
Speaker 6: There was a bank robbery in Balna at the Commonwealth Bank,
Speaker 6: and they had helicopters flying over and things like that,
Speaker 6: and I thought, this is a bit sus so I
Speaker 6: pulled my plants up and never replanted them. It's been
Speaker 6: a gradual decrease over twenty five years.
Speaker 8: Twenty five years of consistent use.
Speaker 6: You wouldn't even say it was consistent, very light use,
Speaker 6: I'd call it.
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett had one final question, which he started with
Speaker 1: the words to be fair to mister Winfield. He asked
Speaker 1: Murray again whether it was his evidence that John had
Speaker 1: left the house that night with the car's engine and
Speaker 1: lights off. Definitely, and with that Murray's evidence was completed.
Speaker 1: While recording his evidence from the courtroom transcript for this episode,
Speaker 1: he reflected on the focus on his use of cannabis.
Speaker 6: I was just on the truth and that was the
Speaker 6: only thing they had. He went down that path and
Speaker 6: he just tried to discredit me. At the time, he
Speaker 6: only had one local newspaper, Northern Star, and was plastered
Speaker 6: over that.
Speaker 1: Murray and deb are even now still a bit sensitive
Speaker 1: about the line of questioning. But John's lawyer would not
Speaker 1: have been doing his job properly if he had not
Speaker 1: at least tried to link Murray's smoking of the green
Speaker 1: leafy material to the reliability of Murray's recollections after all,
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett was literally fighting for the rest of John's life.
Speaker 1: He is deb reflecting on it.
Speaker 10: Well, at the time, I thought, okay, he's trying to
Speaker 10: discredit us. That was his game plan. We had Veggie
Speaker 10: ardens like we do now, and in the back corner
Speaker 10: had one plant and John Murray would talk over the
Speaker 10: fence and so John would see it. And this is
Speaker 10: where John has picked this up. Browen was my good friend.
Speaker 10: She knew we had the plan. You know, we'd laugh
Speaker 10: about it and then over the years you grow out
Speaker 10: of that because you have children, you move on.
Speaker 6: It's not relevant. We're responsible adults.
Speaker 1: Murray mentioned that as the inquest was unfolding day by
Speaker 1: day in Lismore, he maintained a friendly rapport with John.
Speaker 6: Sometimes in the breaks we sat down with one another
Speaker 6: and spoke to one another.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham explained the lineup going into the witness box.
Speaker 1: The police officer told the Deputy State coroner would be
Speaker 1: Denise Barnard, Becky McGuire, John's daughter, Jody Bromwin's daughter Crystal.
Speaker 1: But before day three was over, those in the Lismore
Speaker 1: courtroom would watch a video and then it would be
Speaker 1: entered as a formal exhibit.
Speaker 2: There is a videotape, your Worship, which the Officer in
Speaker 2: charges recently obtained from another witness. The video apparently describes
Speaker 2: the missing person and John Winfield and the two children
Speaker 2: when the house was being constructed in the late eighties,
Speaker 2: and I think it runs for about twenty minutes. It
Speaker 2: might allow your Worship to get a better sense of
Speaker 2: the physical nature of Missus Winfield and give you some
Speaker 2: sense of her relationship to her children. I'm told that
Speaker 2: they'd like to see the video now, Your Worship.
Speaker 1: Craig Legott had no objection, which meant John was agreeable
Speaker 1: to the family video being seen by those in the courtroom.
Speaker 5: Okay, can you give us a bit of commentary as too.
Speaker 5: I think it will be fairly evident as to who
Speaker 5: the persons are, but just in case there are other
Speaker 5: people in the video.
Speaker 2: She's got a green dress on.
Speaker 1: That's bronwin Everyone in court stared ahead at the footage
Speaker 1: of Bromwan with her daughters. She was willowy, smiling and
Speaker 1: fussing over the two girls. Jodie was in there too.
Speaker 1: Megan Reid recalled that it was a poignant and powerful interlude.
Speaker 11: I think it was one of the neighbors, and it
Speaker 11: was of a birthday party, and it shows bronwin playing
Speaker 11: with the kids and how good she was with them.
Speaker 1: You sid so heartbreaking, you worshiped.
Speaker 8: The final matter is this I raised yesterday the potential
Speaker 8: importance of Detective Sergeant Discan to your task. I'm instructed
Speaker 8: detective Sergeant Discan told John Winfield that Murray Nolan had
Speaker 8: told not to beat around the bush. Mister Winfield instructs
Speaker 8: me that Detective Sergeant Discin told him that Murray Nolan
Speaker 8: had reported seen the car that's the Winfield car moving
Speaker 8: up the hill in Sandstone Crescent. Now that's different from
Speaker 8: the version that mister Nolan has recounted to the court
Speaker 8: under oath.
Speaker 5: What this is a purported conversation that Sergeant Discan had
Speaker 5: with mister Winfield.
Speaker 1: Craig Leggett acknowledged that it was, as he put it,
Speaker 1: second hand hearsay, but he added that if Graham Diskin
Speaker 1: had any note of such a conversation, it might be
Speaker 1: helpful in explaining the evidence.
Speaker 5: Well, I don't know what the position is with Sergeant Discin.
Speaker 5: The sergeant might be able to enlighten the court. We've
Speaker 5: had some discussions about it this morning.
Speaker 1: That was the cue for Matt Fordham to explain Detective
Speaker 1: Discan's position in so far as being a potential witness
Speaker 1: was concerned.
Speaker 2: Sadly, Sir, it appears that it's fairly unlikely that Sergeant
Speaker 2: Discan will be making himself available to your Worship to
Speaker 2: assist you, and I do apologize for that. The position
Speaker 2: is said that he's been on sick leave. It appears
Speaker 2: to the officer in charge that Sergeant Discan may not
Speaker 2: be returning to work. He's informed the officer in charge
Speaker 2: that he is unable to attend a police station and
Speaker 2: he's unable to attend a courthouse. Your Worship, I'd like
Speaker 2: to see Sergeant Discin give evidence in relation to a
Speaker 2: few things in this matter, but I sadly don't think
Speaker 2: that's going to occur without a warrant issued by your Worship.
Speaker 5: The Coroner's Court will adopt the same attitude as any court,
Speaker 5: and that is irrespective of whether Sergeant Discin is a
Speaker 5: serving police officer as of now or perhaps the civilian
Speaker 5: sometime in the future. He is still a witness that's
Speaker 5: compellable to come to court. And give evidence if required.
Speaker 5: That of course, is subject to his ability to give
Speaker 5: evidence in relation to illness, and generally speaking, a court
Speaker 5: is not going to insist on a witness giving evidence
Speaker 5: if they have a doctor's certificate to say they are
Speaker 5: unfit to attend court. And I'm only assuming that he
Speaker 5: has obviously some occupational health problems that relate to his duty,
Speaker 5: and that if he's not able to attend the courthouse
Speaker 5: or a police station, and he's making an application to
Speaker 5: be discharged medically unfit from the police force, one may
Speaker 5: well wonder how effective or reliable his evidence might be.
Speaker 5: In any event, Certainly I agree with Sergeant Fordham and
Speaker 5: your submissions, mister Leggett, that it would be desirable to
Speaker 5: have Sergeant diskin here. There are many questions I'm sure
Speaker 5: that we would all like to ask him, and without
Speaker 5: perhaps being too critical of him in his absence, which
Speaker 5: is perhaps unfair, it's certainly apparent to me, even at
Speaker 5: this stage of the inquest, that had this disappearance been
Speaker 5: treated a little bit more seriously by Sergeant Discan, and
Speaker 5: perhaps if notations were made in running sheets which reflected
Speaker 5: more accurately direct conversation rather than perhaps what might be
Speaker 5: perceived as being summaries of what people may or may
Speaker 5: not have said. That evidence would have been far more
Speaker 5: reliable than the evidence we're relying on here. But I
Speaker 5: think it also should be remembered that this case doesn't
Speaker 5: necessarily swing on the abilities or inabilities of Sergeant Discan.
Speaker 5: There are many other questions a lot of other witnesses
Speaker 5: still have to answer in these proceedings, and Sergeant I
Speaker 5: might talk to you in shame is about the possibility
Speaker 5: of having a drive down to Lennox Head, perhaps even
Speaker 5: this afternoon.
Speaker 1: As the court room emptied at the end of the
Speaker 1: third day of the inquest, Karl Milavanovitch and the police
Speaker 1: officer assisting the fact finding inquiry, Matt Fordham made plans
Speaker 1: to go to Sandstone Crescent. The deputy State Coroner had
Speaker 1: heard a lot of evidence about the house in which
Speaker 1: Broman and John lived, the driveway, the sloping road down
Speaker 1: to the bottom of the hill, and the vantage point
Speaker 1: which Murray had when he saw things on that fateful
Speaker 1: Sunday night, But hearing the evidence of the physical surroundings
Speaker 1: was very different to seeing it with his own eyes.
Speaker 1: Carl went to Lennox and he took it all in,
Speaker 1: and he walked across the driveway of what Bromwan called
Speaker 1: John's castle. He stood outside and looked at it Bromwin's prison.
Speaker 1: At ten fifteen am on the fourth day of the inquest,
Speaker 1: Bromwin's good friend Denise Barnard, stepped forward and waited patiently
Speaker 1: for the police officer Matt Fordham's gentle opening questions. Denise
Speaker 1: and her husband, lez a builder, were sometimes on a
Speaker 1: different page when it came to questioning Bronwin's fate. Denise
Speaker 1: believed that she knew Bromwin well. She regarded suggestions that
Speaker 1: the doting mother would go away, stay away and start
Speaker 1: a new life as ridiculous. But the inquest was about
Speaker 1: much more than opinions and feelings. It was a fact
Speaker 1: finding exercise. What when, where, how? Questions of why had
Speaker 1: less weight they would invite opinions feelings.
Speaker 2: You say in your statement, ma'am, that Bronwin would often
Speaker 2: tell you that John appeared to be nice when he
Speaker 2: was in a group of people, but she would always say,
Speaker 2: everyone thinks that John is a real cool, surfy but
Speaker 2: he's not what he seems. Ma'am. You say in your
Speaker 2: statement also that Bronwin told you that on one occasion,
Speaker 2: John had pinned her up against a wall and that
Speaker 2: she was really scared that he was going to hurt her.
Speaker 2: You cannot remember exactly what it was over, but it
Speaker 2: was something very trivial, ma'am. Do you recall how long
Speaker 2: before Bronwn went missing that you may have heard that conversation.
Speaker 7: It was quite a while.
Speaker 1: Denise confirmed that she did not see injuries on Bromwin's body.
Speaker 1: Bromwyn had not disclosed to Denise any other incidence of violence,
Speaker 1: but Bromwin had described her determination to separate from John
Speaker 1: and start a new life for her and her daughters,
Speaker 1: Crystal and Lauren.
Speaker 2: Did she ever discuss with you her plans with respect
Speaker 2: to the children.
Speaker 12: Well, the children would have been with Braun. She wouldn't
Speaker 12: have gone without the children.
Speaker 2: Did she ever tell you that that was the case. Well,
Speaker 2: you just knew.
Speaker 12: If you knew Bronwyn, you knew that the children were
Speaker 12: her priority. They were always with her.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham asked about the clairvoyant and tarot card reader
Speaker 1: Pendragon and Jacko. Denise had little to add apart from
Speaker 1: flatly rejecting the idea that Bromwin could have gone away
Speaker 1: with one of them. Denise confirmed that she had gone
Speaker 1: with deb Haul to the property Bromwin had been renting
Speaker 1: in Byron Street, and it was Denise's husband, Lez who
Speaker 1: had obtained the ladder they used to get inside the place.
Speaker 1: They're not Jehovah's witnesses.
Speaker 2: Did you see much in the way of furniture or
Speaker 2: possessions there?
Speaker 12: There wasn't a lot. There were some of those fluffy toys,
Speaker 12: a few bits of clothing. The furniture as it was.
Speaker 12: I'd actually lent Broun a print of mine to put
Speaker 12: into the unit to make it look nice, and I
Speaker 12: noticed that it was still there.
Speaker 2: And ma'am, since the disappearance of Bronwin, have you ever
Speaker 2: spoken with John Winfield about her appearance?
Speaker 12: We had many conversations soon after a lot. Because my
Speaker 12: statement was actually never taken until five years after the fact.
Speaker 12: I can't remember a lot of the conversations, but they
Speaker 12: were normal conversations about where he thought she just walked
Speaker 12: off and left him. I was of another belief that
Speaker 12: she wouldn't have done it.
Speaker 2: You say that he indicated she simply walked off and
Speaker 2: left him. Did he indicate to you at any stage,
Speaker 2: where she may have gone or who she may have
Speaker 2: gone with.
Speaker 1: No Denise told the inquest that after Bromwin disappeared, her girls,
Speaker 1: Crystal and Lawrence stopped going to playgroup. They were rarely
Speaker 1: seen at other school functions. Finally, Denise agreed that John
Speaker 1: had told her of Bromwin's purported return to the house
Speaker 1: and her purported leaving of the medicare check. Matt Fordham
Speaker 1: had nothing further, and John's lawyer, Craig Leggett, opted to
Speaker 1: keep his powder dry.
Speaker 8: I have no questions for missus Barnard, thank you.
Speaker 1: Near the start of this podcast investigation, in early twenty
Speaker 1: twenty four, when I met Denise for the first time
Speaker 1: at the house that Les built in Lennox Head, Bromlin's
Speaker 1: good friend remembered something It had thrown her immediately after
Speaker 1: her evidence that day in Lismore.
Speaker 11: I got down off the witness box that day and
Speaker 11: when we were leaving, John gave me the wink. I
Speaker 11: still remember that as clear as day.
Speaker 1: So I didn't know that what happened when.
Speaker 11: You're talking in the witness box is watching it the
Speaker 11: whole time, and when we left he me the wink.
Speaker 11: Why I don't know, but I can just remember it
Speaker 11: still vividly.
Speaker 1: Did you take it as him approving of your evidence?
Speaker 11: I took it as him being like, well done, they're
Speaker 11: not going to get me.
Speaker 1: Did you have expectations then that there would be some
Speaker 1: rest Well, we all.
Speaker 11: Thought there would be when there was the inquest.
Speaker 2: I call Rebecca maguire, ma'am. In your statement, you described
Speaker 2: that you were friends with Jody Winfield alias Mayne since
Speaker 2: you were about thirteen years of age. Is that correct, yep,
Speaker 2: that's correct. You described that you've been to Jody's house
Speaker 2: in Sandstone Crescent on a number of occasions before Bronwin
Speaker 2: went missing. Is that correct?
Speaker 13: Yep.
Speaker 2: And you described that there were some arguments that you'd
Speaker 2: witnessed inside the house between John and Bronwin. Is that correct?
Speaker 13: Yeah, not real major ones.
Speaker 2: Did you ever see any violence between them?
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 1: Although she was one of the last people to see
Speaker 1: Bromwin alive, Becky McGuire was not expected to be a
Speaker 1: controversial witness. Her written statement in nineteen ninety eight had
Speaker 1: included an observation that Bromwin was, as Becky put it,
Speaker 1: babbling about something. The front door of the home at
Speaker 1: Sandstone Crescent, on the night John Winfield arrived there Sunday evening.
Speaker 2: Do you remember what your understanding was as to the
Speaker 2: problem that he was trying to overcome.
Speaker 13: He more or less just wanted to pick up his stuff.
Speaker 14: He'd just come back from Sydney and he was staying
Speaker 14: in a motel downtown of Lennox and he just didn't
Speaker 14: want to upset the kids and didn't want any hussles.
Speaker 14: He just wanted to get it and go back to
Speaker 14: the motel.
Speaker 1: This was a very surprising disclosure. Becky Maguire had not
Speaker 1: said anything about a motel in her written statement four
Speaker 1: years earlier. Nowhere in the brief of evidence was there
Speaker 1: any reference to John staying in a nearby motel.
Speaker 2: Do you remember which motel he said he was staying at.
Speaker 14: Yes, it's the one opposite the food store in Lenox Head.
Speaker 14: It might have been called Gradwell's Flats at that stage.
Speaker 1: Rebecca Maguire then recalled that John Winfield was possibly dropped
Speaker 1: off there on the way back from Sandstone c It
Speaker 1: was confusing and unexpected evidence.
Speaker 2: Do you remember being told why John Winfield wanted you
Speaker 2: at the house.
Speaker 14: He just basically he just didn't want to freak the kids.
Speaker 14: He didn't want any domestics. He just wanted to go
Speaker 14: there and get it.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham reiterated what she had previously said, including that
Speaker 1: she and John went to the house and walked to
Speaker 1: the front door while John Watson did a U turn
Speaker 1: and drove off. Becky could not remember those details as
Speaker 1: she sat at the inquest in Lismore on the fourth
Speaker 1: day of proceedings.
Speaker 14: With that statement, a lot of it was just confusion
Speaker 14: because I was pretty young when it all happened, so
Speaker 14: some of it is correct, some of it is confused
Speaker 14: with just events that have happened in my life that
Speaker 14: might have just got mixed up. From what I can remember,
Speaker 14: he just knocked on the door, and ron Wood ouncewid
Speaker 14: and the two girls were standing beside her.
Speaker 2: Did it strike you with strange that he had to
Speaker 2: knock on the front door of his own house.
Speaker 14: No, My family has been through too, so No, I've
Speaker 14: seen stuff, and not in that family, but just life
Speaker 14: in general. I was pretty much standing right near them.
Speaker 14: They weren't yelling or anything. They were talking and I'm
Speaker 14: pretty sure he just said he was staying down at
Speaker 14: the motel. We weren't there for long at all, just
Speaker 14: got his stuff and pretty much left.
Speaker 1: She recalled that Lauren was crying John gave her a cuddle.
Speaker 1: She also remembered the suitcases which John picked up and
Speaker 1: put into the car, but in the inquest, Becky's version
Speaker 1: was that the suitcases went into John Watson's vehicle, not
Speaker 1: the wind Field Ford Falcon.
Speaker 14: He put them in the back of John's fall drive thing,
Speaker 14: and John Watson drove us back.
Speaker 13: I thought they were just closed that he was picking up.
Speaker 2: And what was John's demeanor at the time.
Speaker 14: More or less just go back to the motel and
Speaker 14: get some rest, because he'd just gotten back into town
Speaker 14: that day.
Speaker 2: Did he ever indicate to you any intention at that
Speaker 2: point for him to return to Sydney that evening.
Speaker 13: No, he didn't say anything.
Speaker 2: And ma'am, after you left the house yourself and John
Speaker 2: Winfield got back into John Watson's truck, is that correct?
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 13: We dropped him off in front of the motel.
Speaker 15: Yep.
Speaker 13: The motel is on that side.
Speaker 14: And he crossed the road and went straight in and
Speaker 14: said thanks very much, sorry about it all, and that
Speaker 14: was it.
Speaker 1: In the nine years since that night, Becky said she
Speaker 1: had not talked to John or to her best friend
Speaker 1: Jody about Brommin's disappearance, And that was another disclosure which
Speaker 1: must have surprised those watching the evidence unfold. The unexplained
Speaker 1: disappearance of Jody's stepmother, John's wife, a police investigation, years
Speaker 1: of speculation in the community, but according to Becky, it
Speaker 1: had never come up in her conversations with one of
Speaker 1: her best friends.
Speaker 14: Yeah, I've never really brought the topic up. If she
Speaker 14: wanted to talk to me about it, she could have,
Speaker 14: but I didn't bring it up.
Speaker 2: No, did she ever indicate to you any theory as
Speaker 2: to how she may have left the house or disappeared
Speaker 2: or anything like that.
Speaker 14: No, I don't think we discussed it at all.
Speaker 1: When it was Craig Leggott's turn, he read aloud from
Speaker 1: her nineteen ninety eight statement, so fundamentally different from what
Speaker 1: she had been describing in her sworn evidence in the courtroom.
Speaker 8: That's consistent with how John Watson remembered the events, but
Speaker 8: it seems to be a little bit different from how
Speaker 8: you're remembering them now.
Speaker 14: Yeah, I've sort of I've had It's been a long
Speaker 14: time for me. I was sixteen seven months pregnant, so
Speaker 14: but as I said in my statement, I said, I
Speaker 14: couldn't be sure how much of it is correct.
Speaker 1: John's lawyer asked whether her evidence about the motel was
Speaker 1: possibly incorrect too.
Speaker 13: Yeah, I'm not real clear on the whole night.
Speaker 14: I've just basically tried to put into perspective and as
Speaker 14: I said, like basically given a slight picture, whether it's
Speaker 14: one hundred percent, I couldn't say.
Speaker 1: Glenn Taylor was recalled to the witness stand for a
Speaker 1: few formalities. Some document which were not in the original
Speaker 1: brief of evidence needed to be formally recognized as exhibits.
Speaker 16: They were in a box of old material that Detective
Speaker 16: Sergeant disk In had gathered. I believe they relate to
Speaker 16: a running sheet he put in where he indicated that
Speaker 16: he attended the home of bromwin Winfield and obtained various letters.
Speaker 16: It doesn't actually specify what the letters contained in the
Speaker 16: running sheets were.
Speaker 6: So it was a little bit difficult.
Speaker 16: I could only go by what the running sheet stays,
Speaker 16: and it's not really clear. It just says attended saidstand
Speaker 16: cresent and took possession of a number of private letters.
Speaker 1: I believe that they were in the house matt Fordham
Speaker 1: put it to the detective that the letters were written
Speaker 1: by Bromwin and were intended for a number of people
Speaker 1: in the form in which they were in when they
Speaker 1: were they.
Speaker 2: Were drafts of a letter that the deceased may have
Speaker 2: sent to these people, because they substantially repeated themselves and
Speaker 2: expanded and corrected spelling mistakes.
Speaker 1: The detective agreed, adding that the dates on the letters
Speaker 1: were from May three to May thirteen.
Speaker 2: And so is it the case that there also appears
Speaker 2: amongst the bound notepad to be some notes as to
Speaker 2: what missus Winfield intended to do on the weekend that
Speaker 2: she disappeared and in the week following it.
Speaker 1: Glenn Taylor did not disagree. Matt Fordham then talked about
Speaker 1: some of the things Bromwin was planning to do.
Speaker 2: Guitar lessons. And it says drop Lauren at Emily's place correct.
Speaker 2: Then it says Crystal and I go to real estate
Speaker 2: assessments correct. Then it says babysitter for Saturday night.
Speaker 1: Correct.
Speaker 2: Then there's a number Virgil or daughter and a telephone number.
Speaker 2: Is that correct? It does say that, yes, And it
Speaker 2: does say also on the next line down Sunday underlined,
Speaker 2: and then work twelve to four pm correct.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham continued reading what was in essence an ad
Speaker 1: hoc diary showing all the mundane things which Bromwin was
Speaker 1: attending to. Nowhere in this document was there any reference
Speaker 1: to going on a break, to being away from her
Speaker 1: children for any length of time. To the contrary, many
Speaker 1: of the references revolved around her two daughters.
Speaker 2: And then it says car reregistration slips.
Speaker 1: Bromwin was prioritizing that one the word must was underlined.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham then moved on to Detective Sergeant Discan's unavailability
Speaker 1: for the inquest and.
Speaker 2: A medical certificate indicating that he is unfit to work
Speaker 2: from it appears to be three May two thousand and
Speaker 2: two until three November two thousand and two.
Speaker 1: Glenn Taylor agreed that he had a copy of a
Speaker 1: similar medical certificate from two thousand and one until May
Speaker 1: two thousand and two for Detective disk In. Nobody was
Speaker 1: expecting him to return to work, nor would he be
Speaker 1: appearing at Bromwin joy Winfield's inquest. Glenn was questioned about
Speaker 1: the possibilities of obtaining call charge records for the landline
Speaker 1: telephone at Sandstone Crescent. He explained that an hour earlier,
Speaker 1: a manager in Telstra's Law Enforcement Liaison section, Kingsley Banister,
Speaker 1: had advised another police officer.
Speaker 16: That local calls could definitely not be traced in nineteen
Speaker 16: ninety three. The technology only became a vilable sometime in
Speaker 16: nineteen ninety seven. From nineteen ninety three, the only technology
Speaker 16: that was a vilable was STD calls.
Speaker 1: Now, you'll recall that near the end of season two
Speaker 1: we touched on the crucial importance of local calls in
Speaker 1: this case. If Bromwin did make a local call resulting
Speaker 1: in someone coming to pick her up, then John Winfield's
Speaker 1: story would sound more plausible. But if Bromwin did not
Speaker 1: make such a call, and if records were available then
Speaker 1: to show this and perhaps still available now, then John's
Speaker 1: claim looks like a lie. I have received dozens of
Speaker 1: emails and other messages from people sharing their knowledge about
Speaker 1: local calls and opinions and feedback from these people, some
Speaker 1: of whom were Telstra and Telecom staff. However, most of
Speaker 1: the responses suggested that local call data did exist and
Speaker 1: could have been obtained in nineteen ninety three, but was
Speaker 1: it available from the local exchange then it's a key question.
Speaker 1: Karina Berger and I are going to revisit this in
Speaker 1: an upcoming episode and draw on the information that we
Speaker 1: have received from different sources including Telstra, matt Fordham Chain Stride.
Speaker 2: And sir, have you made the inquiries in relation to
Speaker 2: witness by the name of Lena.
Speaker 1: Glenn Taylor confirmed that he had talked to her. However,
Speaker 1: when he contacted her again to make final plans to
Speaker 1: see her to take a statement.
Speaker 16: He indicated to me that she did not wish to
Speaker 16: be spoken to, did not wish to be interviewed, and
Speaker 16: she informed me he reasons why she didn't wish to
Speaker 16: be interview She indicated certain fears she held herself about
Speaker 16: becoming involved.
Speaker 1: So no, he has not been interview You will recall
Speaker 1: that Lena's name came up in episode twenty eight when
Speaker 1: we reconstructed some of Andy Reid's evidence at the inquest
Speaker 1: in two thousand and two.
Speaker 17: She confided in me that she did not want to
Speaker 17: be seen or even be in the same room as
Speaker 17: Jonathan Winfield ever again in her life, she said to
Speaker 17: me she labeled him a doctor Jekyll and mister Hyde.
Speaker 1: And in an upcoming episode, you will hear more about Lena,
Speaker 1: her relationship with John, which began about a year after
Speaker 1: Bromin's disappearance, and her subsequent decision to terminate their connection
Speaker 1: and try to have nothing to do with him again.
Speaker 2: Ma'am, could you please tell us your full name?
Speaker 7: Jody Lynn Mayne.
Speaker 1: Andy Reid recalls there was a discernible change of atmosphere
Speaker 1: in the court room as John's eldest daughter walked to
Speaker 1: the witness stand at eleven ten am. Jody's actions on
Speaker 1: the first day, when she spoke of Bromwin being alive
Speaker 1: and well and probably living up the road in a
Speaker 1: hippie community in Nimbon, had turned the inquest into a
Speaker 1: theater of the absurd. But still stranger things have happened.
Speaker 1: One year after Bromwin's inquest, serial killer Leonard John Fraser
Speaker 1: was on trial for murder in Brisbane over the slaying
Speaker 1: of a teenager, Natasha Ryan. Five years had elapsed since
Speaker 1: the schoolgirl disappeared she was aged fourteen, nobody had been recovered.
Speaker 1: It is highly probable that Fraser would have been convicted
Speaker 1: by the jury in the Old Supreme Court building on
Speaker 1: George Street. The monstrous child killer's notoriety preceded him suddenly,
Speaker 1: though his murder trial was halted and the Crown prosecutor
Speaker 1: made an extraordinary disclosure to the trial judge. Police believed
Speaker 1: that they had found Natasha Ryan, not her remains. Natasha
Speaker 1: was alive and well. For five years. She had been
Speaker 1: living and hiding in a house one hundred meters from
Speaker 1: her family home in the central Queensland town of Rockhampton.
Speaker 1: Natasha had been in a relationship with a young man,
Speaker 1: Scott Black. They wanted to be together. The weeks turned
Speaker 1: into months and then years. Police and her family were
Speaker 1: sure she had been abducted and murdered by Fraser. When
Speaker 1: visitors would go to the house in which she and
Speaker 1: Black were living together, Natasha would hide in a cupboard.
Speaker 1: Seasoned detectives, prosecutors and judges were staggered by the turn
Speaker 1: of events. You could not make this story up. It
Speaker 1: was so bizarre. The ten Networks reporter Tony Fabris was
Speaker 1: on the scene tonight. Natasha Ryan's father speaks out exclusively
Speaker 1: about getting back the daughter he had given up for death.
Speaker 18: You feel like you want to cuddle he so bad.
Speaker 18: Then you also want to sort of boot her in
Speaker 18: the bum. For what she's put you through. It I
Speaker 18: couldn't stop cuddling. It was like I saw a ghost,
Speaker 18: not a.
Speaker 2: Ghost, but his daughter, now a young woman, overwhelmed by
Speaker 2: the world she's returned to.
Speaker 18: She's very beautiful, very pale, and very confused and frightened
Speaker 18: that she's alive.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham started on an ominous note. He was flagging
Speaker 1: that things could get a bit bumpy for Jody and
Speaker 1: that she might potentially even incriminate herself in the hours ahead.
Speaker 2: Firstly, have you received any legal advice in relation to
Speaker 2: your attendance at court and giving evidence in relation to
Speaker 2: this matter? No, ma'am. I want you to understand that
Speaker 2: if at any stage during your evidence you believe that
Speaker 2: you need some legal advice, I'd like you to indicate
Speaker 2: that to us, and if necessary, I think your Worship
Speaker 2: will pause the proceedings so that that can be obtained.
Speaker 2: Do you understand that?
Speaker 7: Okay?
Speaker 2: Yep?
Speaker 1: Jody appeared unflustered. Matt Fordham started to take her through
Speaker 1: parts of her written statement from August nineteen ninety eight.
Speaker 2: Did Brown ever discuss with you any arguments she had
Speaker 2: with your father?
Speaker 7: We quite often talked about arguments because dad and I
Speaker 7: used to argue a lot as I was a teenager
Speaker 7: wanting to go out and do things. But mainly, yeah,
Speaker 7: just about arguments between me and him. She was always
Speaker 7: sort of trying to be the go between on things like.
Speaker 1: Jody was asked about the configuration of the garage and
Speaker 1: it was soon established that there was an interconnecting door
Speaker 1: which was probably lockable between the garage and the house.
Speaker 1: She was asked about her father being, as Matt Fordham put.
Speaker 2: It, barely particular in the way that he liked his
Speaker 2: house maintained.
Speaker 7: Yes, he was fussy around the house at the time
Speaker 7: when I lived there, I thought he was fussy, but
Speaker 7: I was a teenager. Now, being twenty eight and having
Speaker 7: a family and maintaining a house myself, I don't really
Speaker 7: see any difference between the way I care for my
Speaker 7: home as he did his.
Speaker 1: Jody spoke of being aged about twelve when she met Bromwin.
Speaker 2: And you knew that she, for example, would have kept
Speaker 2: her handbag with her personal items. Yep, she would have
Speaker 2: maintained inside that handbag. She would have kept things like
Speaker 2: sunglasses and lipstick and things like.
Speaker 7: That, wouldn't she Yes, she always had that sort of
Speaker 7: thing with her.
Speaker 2: She would have kept things like her purse with her
Speaker 2: driver's license in it, for example. Yes, she would have
Speaker 2: kept in that purse some credit cards. Is that correct?
Speaker 7: I don't know if she had credit cards.
Speaker 2: She would have kept in that handbag. Perhaps a diary
Speaker 2: of her plans for the future. Is that correct?
Speaker 7: I don't know. I don't remember. I don't think so.
Speaker 7: I don't know.
Speaker 2: She would have kept some photos of our children inside
Speaker 2: that handbag. Is that correct?
Speaker 13: Yes?
Speaker 1: On and on the list went. Matt Fordham raised other items,
Speaker 1: and the dress book of telephone numbers for people that
Speaker 1: Bromwin knew, and receipts for recent purchases. Jody agreed, yes,
Speaker 1: Bromwyn would have most probably kept these in her handbag.
Speaker 2: Ma'am. Are you aware of any time before Bronwin disappeared
Speaker 2: where Bronwin may have left the children unattended at any stage? Yes?
Speaker 2: I am, And what are those times?
Speaker 7: Well, it was only once I was in Sydney, and
Speaker 7: I think it was the Saturday before she disappeared. I
Speaker 7: rang the house. I don't know why I rang the house.
Speaker 7: I don't know if Dad had told me that he
Speaker 7: thought she was home. I don't know how that happened.
Speaker 7: But I rang the home, and actually the night before
Speaker 7: I rang her and spoke to her. That was when
Speaker 7: we had a bit of an argument.
Speaker 2: That's the Friday night.
Speaker 7: The Friday night, the Saturday, I rang the house and
Speaker 7: Crystal answered the phone and I asked where bronwin was
Speaker 7: and she said that Bronwyn had gone out and she
Speaker 7: would be home at four o'clock. I asked her who
Speaker 7: was there with her and she said just Lauren, And
Speaker 7: I said, well, who's minding you?
Speaker 2: Like who?
Speaker 7: She said, nobody, I'm on my own. And she seemed
Speaker 7: to be quite happy because she was babysitting, and I
Speaker 7: suppose she felt like she was doing a job with that.
Speaker 2: Are you aware of any arguments between Bronwyn and mister
Speaker 2: Winfield about money?
Speaker 7: No, I don't really know what they used to argue about.
Speaker 2: In the months before Bronwyn disappeared. Do you recall ever
Speaker 2: discussing with Bronwan on the telephone? Her arguments with your father.
Speaker 7: Before she disappeared, like months before?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 7: No, not really.
Speaker 2: Was there any incidents that you know of that caused
Speaker 2: her to move out of the home at Sandstone Crescent?
Speaker 7: No, not any specific incident at all the arguments that
Speaker 7: you were aware of in the time that you stayed
Speaker 7: with Bronwyn and your father.
Speaker 2: Did they ever result in violence between them?
Speaker 7: No, not that I saw.
Speaker 2: And you're absolutely certain that you never saw any injuries
Speaker 2: on Bronwe.
Speaker 7: No, never, never.
Speaker 2: You never saw any acts of violence towards Bronwin whatsoever. No,
Speaker 2: you never saw any fights to generate to the point
Speaker 2: where there was physical contact between them.
Speaker 7: No, I've never seen.
Speaker 2: That, and you're absolutely certain of that. Yep, ma'am. Have
Speaker 2: you ever informed anyone else that you've seen acts of
Speaker 2: violence between the two No, And you're absolutely certain that
Speaker 2: you've never told anyone that there's been violence in the
Speaker 2: family in the past.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 7: I've heard all the rumors, but I've never seen it
Speaker 7: with my own two eyes.
Speaker 2: And so, for example, if I was to suggest to
Speaker 2: you that there was an allegation that a chair was
Speaker 2: thrown at Bronwe, that would be incorrect, Is that right?
Speaker 7: I know about the chair incident. I don't know how
Speaker 7: I heard about the chair incident, but I definitely didn't
Speaker 7: see it.
Speaker 2: What do you know about the chare incident?
Speaker 7: Well, it was just one of the many little things
Speaker 7: that went around. I don't know if Bronwin told me herself,
Speaker 7: because obviously this happened when she was still around. She
Speaker 7: might have told me herself. She might have told Megan
Speaker 7: on occasional times. I think I've spoken to Megan in
Speaker 7: the past. Megan might have relayed it to me. I
Speaker 7: don't know how I know about it, but there's a
Speaker 7: few ways I could have known about it.
Speaker 2: And did you ever discuss that incident with Bronwin?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: And what do you understand the allegations about the chair.
Speaker 7: To be well, only what Michelle said the other day,
Speaker 7: and I hadn't really even thought that much about it.
Speaker 2: What do you understand Michelle to have said the other day.
Speaker 7: That I was there and that I saw what happened,
Speaker 7: and that he threw the chair or something like that.
Speaker 2: You sound as though it surprised you to hear that evidence.
Speaker 2: Is that correct?
Speaker 7: No, I just sort of kind of forgot about that.
Speaker 7: That was just but when I heard it, I remembered
Speaker 7: about the chair incident, but I don't remember. I have
Speaker 7: absolutely no memory of being there or even discussing it
Speaker 7: with Michelle, and I actually don't even remember taking a
Speaker 7: present to her child. I don't remember that at all.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham read part of Michelle Reid's nineteen ninety eight statement.
Speaker 1: He went to the part in which, according to Michelle,
Speaker 1: Jody had disclosed that her father and Bromwin argued often,
Speaker 1: and on one occasion she saw her father.
Speaker 7: Pick Bronwyn up in a chair and hold her and
Speaker 7: the chair high up into the air.
Speaker 1: According to Michelle, Jody then saw her father drop the
Speaker 1: chair with Bromwin in it. It frightened Jody and Bromwin.
Speaker 7: No, I honestly have no recollection of ever talking to
Speaker 7: Michelle about it, That's honest. I don't remember talking to her.
Speaker 7: I don't even remember giving her a present. I don't
Speaker 7: even remember going to her house and seeing her.
Speaker 1: Here is a reminder of something you heard early in
Speaker 1: this podcast investigation. It came out of my visit to
Speaker 1: Michelle's house to see her and Andy in early twenty
Speaker 1: twenty four, and Michelle told me back then about it.
Speaker 1: Is it by Jody to the read home in the Shire.
Speaker 1: Michelle and Andy's son, Mitchell had just been born. Broman
Speaker 1: was in Lennox Head, determined to leave John for good.
Speaker 1: Jody was learning to be a hairdresser at the intercuts
Speaker 1: hair salon in the Shire, and Jody had thoughtfully dropped
Speaker 1: in to see Michelle and the newborn Mitchell.
Speaker 6: I said, did they ever argue?
Speaker 9: Like, was there ever any arguments and stuff like that?
Speaker 9: And she said, oh, I remember one day Bromman was
Speaker 9: sitting in a chair and he picked her up in
Speaker 9: the chair and dropped it with her in it.
Speaker 13: That was an argument they were having.
Speaker 15: And I was really surprised, like I hadn't heard stuff
Speaker 15: like that before, and I'd written that down, of course,
Speaker 15: and that was in nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 1: It is, of course normal to forget things. Our memory
Speaker 1: must be selective, and the reasons why we forget some
Speaker 1: things but remember others is a bit of a mystery.
Speaker 1: A witness who says, sorry, I just can't remember, or
Speaker 1: I've completely forgotten about that I don't know presents a
Speaker 1: significant challenge to a questioner, because unless there is tangible
Speaker 1: evidence of a conspiracy to lie about having forgotten certain things,
Speaker 1: how can anyone prove that the witness is lying about
Speaker 1: something as personal as memory. The witness with a sketchy
Speaker 1: or poor memory, who says very little in response to
Speaker 1: questions makes the job of a questioning lawyer that much harder.
Speaker 1: Jody was not leaving matt fordam much to work with.
Speaker 2: Ma'am. Your mother is Jennifer Mason? Is that correct?
Speaker 13: Yes?
Speaker 1: John Winfield and his young bride were wed in nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy three, and it's the.
Speaker 2: Case that sadly their marriage deteriorated and that there was
Speaker 2: a separation and divorce between your mother and your father.
Speaker 2: Is that correct?
Speaker 7: Yes?
Speaker 2: And what did your father tell you about Jennifer?
Speaker 7: I don't really remember, to be honest, I lived with
Speaker 7: my dad and my grandparents, and I never really I
Speaker 7: was only so young, I didn't really question why I
Speaker 7: was there.
Speaker 2: But over the years, what's your understanding of the reason
Speaker 2: why you ended up with your father and not your mother?
Speaker 7: Well, my mom didn't have suitable ways of caring for me,
Speaker 7: and dad's parents obviously had the better option.
Speaker 2: Did you feel it was strange that your father didn't
Speaker 2: arrange for you to speak with your mother over the years,
Speaker 2: that all of the contact that you had with your
Speaker 2: mother appeared to come through grandparents and other people.
Speaker 7: No, not really.
Speaker 1: Jody agreed that she stayed in fairly regular telephone contact
Speaker 1: with Bromwin after her stepmother's move to the Byron Street
Speaker 1: flat and the start of Bromman's formal set option from John.
Speaker 2: What does she tell you about the clairvoyant?
Speaker 7: She told me that the clairvoyant had told her to
Speaker 7: move back into the house, and somewhere she told me
Speaker 7: that the clairvoyant was her father reincarnated, or something along
Speaker 7: those lines.
Speaker 2: She never spoke to you about legal advice that she'd obtained.
Speaker 7: No, she never told me anything about that.
Speaker 2: Did she ever speak with you about consulting the domestic
Speaker 2: violence support group?
Speaker 7: Never?
Speaker 2: Did you tell your father that the clair voyant had
Speaker 2: advised Bronwin to move back into the house.
Speaker 7: I don't know. I may have, I may not have.
Speaker 7: I don't really know.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham took Jody to the Friday evening on which
Speaker 1: Bronwin had moved back into Sandstone Crescent with Lauren and Crystal.
Speaker 1: Jody had telephoned the house and she spoke to Bromwin
Speaker 1: that night.
Speaker 7: Her attitude had change towards me. She wasn't like she
Speaker 7: normally is with me. We were quite friendly until that night.
Speaker 7: Her attitude had completely changed. I asked her why, and
Speaker 7: she said, because this is my house.
Speaker 1: Jody's memory definitely got better when it came to answering
Speaker 1: some questions about Bromwin's purported conduct and conversations, but on
Speaker 1: other matters, like her father's conduct and conversations, Jody's forgettory
Speaker 1: came to the fore.
Speaker 7: We started to get into an argument and I told
Speaker 7: her it wasn't her house. She told me Dad can
Speaker 7: stay in Sydney with me, and we argued and got
Speaker 7: into quite a bit of an argument, and then she
Speaker 7: hung up on me.
Speaker 1: Jody agreed that the argument was intense.
Speaker 2: Did she indicate to you whether the locks had been
Speaker 2: changed when she moved?
Speaker 7: No, I don't know anything about the locks. I've never
Speaker 7: talked about it with her or Dad for that matter.
Speaker 2: You see, ma'am, you've had this argument with Bronwin on
Speaker 2: the phone on the Friday in relation to who owns
Speaker 2: the house, whose house it is, and you've heard it
Speaker 2: suggested at this inquest that lock had been changed. So
Speaker 2: it must be obvious to you now that both Bronwin
Speaker 2: and your father were very keen to maintain possession of
Speaker 2: the house. Would you agree with that?
Speaker 7: Well, yeah, it's obvious with anybody.
Speaker 1: Jody agreed that after the argument, she probably spoke to
Speaker 1: her father about what had happened. She said John was
Speaker 1: becoming depressed and frustrated because Bromwin was limiting his telephone
Speaker 1: contact with Crystal and Lauren, because.
Speaker 7: I used to be there when he would try and
Speaker 7: wring them, and she would deliberately not be there. So
Speaker 7: of course he was getting upset that he couldn't speak
Speaker 7: to his children. He was just sad, He was just quiet.
Speaker 7: He was upset that he couldn't speak to the kids.
Speaker 2: Did your father ever disclose to you that he had
Speaker 2: changed the locks when he left the house in Sandstone Crescent?
Speaker 7: Never?
Speaker 2: You see, ma'am, you told your father on the Friday
Speaker 2: that Bronwin had told you that your father was no
Speaker 2: longer welcome at the house in Sandstone Crescent.
Speaker 7: You I may have, because that's what she told me.
Speaker 7: I don't remember telling him, but I most likely would have.
Speaker 2: And the fact that she was inside the house was
Speaker 2: a surprise to you.
Speaker 7: Yep.
Speaker 2: And you also say in your statement, ma'am, that Bronwin
Speaker 2: told you that she was going to get a restraining
Speaker 2: order so that your father couldn't go near the house.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 2: In relation to who owned the house, you say in
Speaker 2: your statement that you told her that it belongs to us,
Speaker 2: being yourself, your father, and Crystal and Lauren more because
Speaker 2: she was the one that chose to leave.
Speaker 7: Yes, I did say that to her.
Speaker 2: When was it that you first learned that your father
Speaker 2: was to travel back up to Lennox Head.
Speaker 7: It would have been the following day when I rang
Speaker 7: the house and spoke to Crystal. Basically when we found
Speaker 7: out Kristal was left alone with Lauren. That you know,
Speaker 7: Dad was worried about that, and that's when he, I suppose,
Speaker 7: looked into making arrangements for going home.
Speaker 2: That was the first time that you'd ever known that
Speaker 2: Bronwin would leave the children unattended, definitely to my knowledge.
Speaker 1: Jodie recounted, with what she said was the best of
Speaker 1: her recollection, her Saturday morning conversation with Cristel. It happened
Speaker 1: about thirty six hours before Bromman's disappearance.
Speaker 7: She said that Mum went out, she didn't tell me where.
Speaker 7: I don't think she knew where, and that she would
Speaker 7: be home at four o'clock. She definitely knew what time,
Speaker 7: because I said I wanted to speak to her, and
Speaker 7: my main reason was I was not happy with her
Speaker 7: being at home on her own.
Speaker 2: Did you inquire as to whether there was anyone else
Speaker 2: inside the house?
Speaker 7: No, I just assumed it was her and Lauren.
Speaker 2: Would you agree that, from the perspective of a ten
Speaker 2: year old who receives a phone call from you, she
Speaker 2: may not realize the importance of the questions that she
Speaker 2: is being asked by you about babysitting. Is that correct?
Speaker 7: I think she generally said what was going.
Speaker 2: On, But Cristeal didn't indicate that she was worried about
Speaker 2: her mother, or worried about being left alone or anything
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 7: No, she was quite happy about it.
Speaker 2: You knew the neighbors on either side, yep, you certainly
Speaker 2: knew Rebecca maguire.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 2: There were a number of people at Lenox Head that
Speaker 2: could have attended the house very soon after this phone
Speaker 2: call at nine am to look after the children. Weren't there?
Speaker 4: Well?
Speaker 2: Yeah, did you think to contact any of these people?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 7: I didn't. I honestly didn't think too.
Speaker 2: You'd agree that this is fairly unusual for Bronwan, isn't it.
Speaker 7: Well, it would have been at the time I lived
Speaker 7: at home.
Speaker 1: Jody and the police officer were far apart on the
Speaker 1: question of what it was that caused John to rush
Speaker 1: from Sydney to Barana on a Sunday evening. According to Jody,
Speaker 1: her father made the trip because he was upset at
Speaker 1: the idea of Bromwin neglecting the two girls. If that's true,
Speaker 1: it begs the question of why he didn't go up
Speaker 1: on Saturday. But the police view about the motive for
Speaker 1: John's trip was very different. The detective Glenn Taylor strongly
Speaker 1: suspected that John went up on Sunday evening because he
Speaker 1: was furious that Bromwin had got past his deadlock and
Speaker 1: he was determined to regain possession of the house. His
Speaker 1: trip was not primarily about the girls. It was about
Speaker 1: bricks and mortar John's castle. The idea of Bromwin being
Speaker 1: a neglectful mother flew in the face of reams of
Speaker 1: evidence to the contrary.
Speaker 7: I think he was shocked like I was when I
Speaker 7: told him. He just generally, like me, he was worried
Speaker 7: about them being on their own.
Speaker 2: Now, ma'am, I'll ask you once more, given that your
Speaker 2: father would have been so alarmed about this, and given
Speaker 2: that you can now understand the depth of that alarm,
Speaker 2: you still made no attempt or he made no attempt
Speaker 2: to have anyone go in the house and look after
Speaker 2: the children.
Speaker 7: Well, just because you're alarmed doesn't mean that you think
Speaker 7: something is going to happen to them. You might just
Speaker 7: be concerned that you know they're on their own.
Speaker 2: But it arranged with you for you to drive him
Speaker 2: to the airport.
Speaker 13: Yep.
Speaker 7: We never talked about anything. He was just going home.
Speaker 7: The kids had been left on their own and he
Speaker 7: was worried about it. He was just going home to
Speaker 7: see the kids and to sort out what was happening
Speaker 7: up there.
Speaker 2: And what was your understanding of how long your father
Speaker 2: was to return to Lennox Head for.
Speaker 7: We actually hadn't discussed it. I didn't think he was
Speaker 7: coming back well in the near future, and I never
Speaker 7: asked him because I didn't think he would be coming back.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham asked Jodie whether she remembered her father taking
Speaker 1: one of his surfboards, but she said she could not recall.
Speaker 7: It's so long ago. I don't even remember the drive
Speaker 7: or anything. I honestly can't remember what he had with him.
Speaker 1: She told the police officer that her shift at the
Speaker 1: Intercut's hair salon started about nine in the morning on Monday,
Speaker 1: the day after she had dropped her father at Sydney
Speaker 1: Airport for his flight to Ballina.
Speaker 2: So it was about ten or morning tea time that
Speaker 2: your father arrived with the children. Yep, you say that
Speaker 2: you asked Dad what was happening, and he told you
Speaker 2: that Bronwin had had enough and she'd gone away for
Speaker 2: a holiday for two weeks. Is that correct?
Speaker 13: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's a fairly extraordinary conversation to hear, isn't it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So you're quite certain that your father told you that
Speaker 2: Bronwin had gone for a holiday for two weeks.
Speaker 7: Yes, but I didn't find it surprising considering how things
Speaker 7: had been. I didn't find it surprising at all at
Speaker 7: that time. That's basically all he said. That was all
Speaker 7: that was said, and the girls were there, so I
Speaker 7: didn't really go into it further with him. I hadn't
Speaker 7: seen them for oh months, and I was sort of
Speaker 7: too busy cuddling and talking to them.
Speaker 2: You say that he John said that she Bronwin went
Speaker 2: to the bedroom and made a telephone call, and she
Speaker 2: took a small amount of clothes.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham paraphrased another sentence from JODI's nineteen ninety eight
Speaker 1: statement in which she said that her father told her
Speaker 1: he heard a car pull up and leave, and he
Speaker 1: was sitting on the lounge and he didn't get up
Speaker 1: to see who had driven over to pick his wife up.
Speaker 7: We'd sort of the girls got back into the car
Speaker 7: and we were I was on my way back into
Speaker 7: the salon sort of thing. I was sort of getting
Speaker 7: prepared to say goodbye to them, and we sort of
Speaker 7: walked towards the back of the car, and when we
Speaker 7: asked him, you know what happened? You know, like, how
Speaker 7: are you here, you know, with the kids? And that's
Speaker 7: when he told Around that same time, I think he
Speaker 7: was getting something out of the boot of the car
Speaker 7: for the girls. As he told me this, he then said, oh,
Speaker 7: I saw some sort of letter or journal that was
Speaker 7: in the boot of the car that Bronwin had written.
Speaker 2: Did your father indicate who Bronwyn may have left the
Speaker 2: house with.
Speaker 5: No.
Speaker 7: I didn't ask at that time, because I just assumed
Speaker 7: that it was a pretty likely thing she might have done.
Speaker 7: It's just she was having a break from the kids,
Speaker 7: and to me, that's pretty nine years. I didn't know
Speaker 7: that at the time, did I.
Speaker 2: When John turned up at the hair salon. He had
Speaker 2: the white falcon with him, Is that correct? Yep. You
Speaker 2: rushed and you saw the children and you saw your father.
Speaker 2: Did you look inside the white falcon at all?
Speaker 7: I probably would have. I would have been putting Lauren
Speaker 7: back in the car or whatever. I don't remember seeing
Speaker 7: anything in there.
Speaker 2: You don't recall seeing any bags of clothes or suitcases
Speaker 2: or anything in the car.
Speaker 7: No, I don't. I was just excited to see them,
Speaker 7: and I was under a lot of pressure actually to
Speaker 7: get back in the salon, as I had clients waiting
Speaker 7: in there.
Speaker 2: Now, given that your father used to surf every day,
Speaker 2: do you think it was strange that your father would
Speaker 2: return to Sydney without a surfboard?
Speaker 7: Well, how's he going to surf when he had two
Speaker 7: kids with him?
Speaker 2: But you see, he's come to you so that you
Speaker 2: could assist him in looking after the children, didn't he No.
Speaker 7: I think he came to me actually to see if
Speaker 7: he could get the keys to my unit, or maybe not.
Speaker 7: I offered them to him in case he needed them.
Speaker 7: You know, he had two girls with him, he needed
Speaker 7: somewhere to go. I don't remember if I gave them
Speaker 7: to him or if I didn't, but I think I
Speaker 7: would have, because it's something I would have done.
Speaker 1: So.
Speaker 2: The doors of the car were open as you were
Speaker 2: greeting the children, Is that correct, I'd say, so, you
Speaker 2: didn't see the family dog there?
Speaker 7: No, I don't remember. I don't think so. I don't remember.
Speaker 2: You'd agree with me that it's something that you would
Speaker 2: remember if the dog was there.
Speaker 7: Well, you would think so, But I don't so, because
Speaker 7: there must.
Speaker 2: Be no doubt in your mind that if the dog
Speaker 2: was there that you would have cuddled the dog as well,
Speaker 2: wouldn't you.
Speaker 7: Well, the girls might have had the dog with them
Speaker 7: on their lap. I don't. I really don't remember it.
Speaker 7: I was in an awkward situation. I wanted to see
Speaker 7: the kids and I had to get back into work.
Speaker 2: Did your father indicate where Bronwin may have gone for
Speaker 2: a holiday too, No?
Speaker 7: I never asked him at that time.
Speaker 1: Jodi said that she recalled her father.
Speaker 7: Saying something about the boxes. There were so many boxes,
Speaker 7: and that might have been in the way of later on,
Speaker 7: when I had the girls with me and their outfits
Speaker 7: and stuff. He obviously didn't have much with them, and
Speaker 7: it was something to do with you know, everything was
Speaker 7: in boxes.
Speaker 2: Now, what was the reason given to you as to
Speaker 2: why your father had driven overnight with the children.
Speaker 7: Well, I didn't actually ask him. I just it's common
Speaker 7: sense that the kids would travel better at night, because
Speaker 7: my kids do. But I just thought he wanted to
Speaker 7: get back to his job. I've traveled with my dad
Speaker 7: at night as a child growing up in Lenox, and
Speaker 7: for holidays, we always drove at night because I was
Speaker 7: always asleep.
Speaker 2: Did your father ever take you up to Lenox without
Speaker 2: any other clothing?
Speaker 7: I don't remember, but I wouldn't think so.
Speaker 2: And as a parent today, can you indicate that it's
Speaker 2: a fairly extraordinary thing for a parent to put the
Speaker 2: kids in the car and take them to the other
Speaker 2: end of the state without any clothing appropriate for that climate.
Speaker 1: Is it?
Speaker 7: Yes? But I'm under the impression that he did have
Speaker 7: clothing for them. Yes, I've heard it's not much, but
Speaker 7: I'm under the impression that he had clothing.
Speaker 2: You said that your father had returned to Sydney for
Speaker 2: the purpose of work. Is that correct?
Speaker 7: I assume that only because he was working on a job,
Speaker 7: quite a big job somewhere at Sutherland somewhere, and he
Speaker 7: wanted to bring the girls to see me, because, like
Speaker 7: I say, Bronwin had gone away and he wanted them
Speaker 7: us to be together. I had them after work. I
Speaker 7: saw them as much as I could over that two weeks.
Speaker 1: Jodi said that John had not told her his intention
Speaker 1: to take the girls to John's first wife, Jennifer Mason's house.
Speaker 7: I think he said he had to do something, but
Speaker 7: we couldn't really go into it any further. I just
Speaker 7: had to get back into the salon, so I didn't
Speaker 7: really pay much attention.
Speaker 2: Given that you're aware that Bronwin was intending to keep
Speaker 2: the home, and given that you're aware that your father
Speaker 2: had traveled up to Lennox Head to reclaim the home,
Speaker 2: did it strike you as being strange that your father
Speaker 2: would leave the house with the children.
Speaker 7: No?
Speaker 2: Why is that?
Speaker 15: No?
Speaker 7: Because I didn't think it would be strange for him
Speaker 7: to bring the kids to see me, because the month's
Speaker 7: coming up to it. I hadn't seen Crystal and Lauren.
Speaker 2: But I'm not asking you that. I'm asking you, ma'am,
Speaker 2: whether you think it's unusual that you're father would leave
Speaker 2: the house.
Speaker 7: No, because he was in Sydney before.
Speaker 2: That, ma'am. After the meeting out in the street in
Speaker 2: the mid morning. Are you aware of where your father
Speaker 2: went to.
Speaker 7: No, I wasn't. I knew he had something to do,
Speaker 7: but I didn't know what it was.
Speaker 1: Jodi said that she did not believe her father had
Speaker 1: told her he was going to her mother's house.
Speaker 2: You see, your father had had very little contact with
Speaker 2: your mother in the years before nineteen ninety three, hadn't he.
Speaker 7: Well, I wouldn't say he had a great deal of
Speaker 7: contact with her, but yes, they still, through me, occasionally
Speaker 7: spoke to each other.
Speaker 2: Did you suggest your father that perhaps he might take
Speaker 2: the children to Michelle Reid's house.
Speaker 7: No, I didn't suggest it, or I may have, but
Speaker 7: I don't remember it.
Speaker 2: Does it strike you as strange that your father would
Speaker 2: take the children to your mother's house instead?
Speaker 7: No, because my mother actually lives within walking distance of
Speaker 7: the salon, so he might have just gone there on
Speaker 7: the way. It wasn't that far from where I worked.
Speaker 2: Your father's just driven over night about eight hundred and
Speaker 2: fifty kilometers, hasn't he.
Speaker 7: Yep?
Speaker 2: And it's not that far between the Salon, Cranala and
Speaker 2: Reed's house, is it?
Speaker 7: Oh? I know that, but I'm just saying that it
Speaker 7: might have been the reason why he went there.
Speaker 2: You'd agree with me that he had several people he
Speaker 2: could have turned to before he turned to miss Mason. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Do you know where your father was for the remainder.
Speaker 7: Of the day, No, I don't.
Speaker 2: Did your father indicate anything to you, apart from registering
Speaker 2: the car anything that may have taken four or five hours.
Speaker 7: No, I didn't ask him, and I didn't know until
Speaker 7: this that it was that long before he went to
Speaker 7: Michelle and Andrews.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry.
Speaker 7: I didn't know how long it was before he went
Speaker 7: to Michelle and Andrews, so I wouldn't have asked where
Speaker 7: he was for that time.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham pressed Jody on what John might have done
Speaker 1: to account for what he did from mid morning until
Speaker 1: his return to Jennifer Mason's house mid afternoon on Monday
Speaker 1: to collect the girls and then drive over to Michelle
Speaker 1: and Andy Reid's house.
Speaker 7: He could have gone shopping the park. He could have
Speaker 7: gone back to my unit if I'd given him the keys.
Speaker 7: I don't remember.
Speaker 1: The police officer asked her whether John had talked to
Speaker 1: her about having bought petrol in Ballina.
Speaker 7: I was only eighteen. That's the last sort of questions
Speaker 7: or thoughts that are going through an eighteen year old's head.
Speaker 2: I understand that it's just you see, your father has
Speaker 2: produced this receipt to the Reeds, and I honestly don't
Speaker 2: know why he's done that.
Speaker 7: My dad keeps his receipts for everything, so I mean,
Speaker 7: that's not an unlikely thing for him to have the receipt.
Speaker 2: You remember whether there was anybody going out buying more
Speaker 2: clothes for the children.
Speaker 7: No, I don't remember that.
Speaker 1: Fordham questioned Jodie about whether her father had asked her
Speaker 1: about caring for the children and how he would go
Speaker 1: about doing that.
Speaker 7: No, she replied, adding I know he had help from
Speaker 7: my grandparents, but he raised me. I don't think anybody
Speaker 7: needs to ring up and ask somebody how to b
Speaker 7: the child, and I don't believe he would have done that.
Speaker 1: After the adjournment for lunch, the police officer revisited the
Speaker 1: same subject, John's knowledge of parenting in Bromwin's absence. Jodi
Speaker 1: said she was surprised by the evidence of Michelle Reid,
Speaker 1: who had previously told the inquest that John would telephone
Speaker 1: her for advice. Matt Fordham's strategy showed itself with his
Speaker 1: next line of questioning.
Speaker 2: Ma'am, if the evidence of other witnesses was that your
Speaker 2: father arrived in Sydney with the children without any substantial
Speaker 2: clothing for them, given your assessment of your father as
Speaker 2: being fairly capable as far as caring for the children goes,
Speaker 2: does that surprise you?
Speaker 1: He was demonstrating the remarkable haste with which John left
Speaker 1: the urgency, which saw him drive away from the house
Speaker 1: without even proper clothing for his daughters. What had triggered this?
Speaker 2: Do it?
Speaker 7: Agree?
Speaker 9: Yes?
Speaker 7: But there was a lot of boxes in the house,
Speaker 7: and I can understand that things were They are all
Speaker 7: in boxes.
Speaker 2: So you'd agree with me that somebody who's got a
Speaker 2: lot of knowledge about parenting, or someone who's got experience
Speaker 2: in looking after small children as you do now, it's
Speaker 2: one of the things that you would remember to take
Speaker 2: with you. You take clothes for the children down to Sydney,
Speaker 2: wouldn't you?
Speaker 7: Yes, But I'm under the impression he did take clothes
Speaker 7: to Sydney.
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham asked Jody whether she remembered her father taking
Speaker 1: one of his surfboards, but she said she could not recall.
Speaker 1: Jody held the line clearly she was backing her dad
Speaker 1: one hundred percent. But Matt Fordham was far from finished
Speaker 1: with the witness. He would ask her many more questions,
Speaker 1: and then those in the courtroom were surprised to see
Speaker 1: a new witness sworn in. It was John Winfield. Bronwyn
Speaker 1: is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as a
Speaker 1: podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has information which
Speaker 1: may help solve this cold case, please contact me confidentially
Speaker 1: by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.
Speaker 1: You can read more about this case and see a
Speaker 1: range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bronwyn
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.
Speaker 1: The production and editorial team for Bromwin includes Claire Harvey,
Speaker 1: Kristin Amiot, Joshua Burton, Bridget, Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns,
Speaker 1: Liam Mendez, Sean Callen and Matthew Condon and David Murray,
Speaker 1: with assistance from Isaac Iron's. Audio production for this podcast
Speaker 1: series is by Wassa Audio and original theme music by
Speaker 1: Slade Gibson. We have been assisted by Madison Walsh, a
Speaker 1: relation of Bromin Winfield. We can only do this kind
Speaker 1: of journalism with the support of our subscribers and our
Speaker 1: major sponsors like Harvey Norman. For all of our exclusive stories, videos, maps,
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