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Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series brow contains course

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Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to

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Speaker 1: you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian. When you

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Speaker 1: are standing on Sandstone Crescent and facing south, the house

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Speaker 1: in which deb and Murray have lived for almost forty

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Speaker 1: years is to the left of John and Bromwan's old home.

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Speaker 1: To the right of what Bromin called John's Castle is

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Speaker 1: the house which belonged to Heather and Lloyd Hargrave. The

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Speaker 1: retiree saw Bromwin on Friday May fourteen, nineteen ninety three.

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Speaker 1: Bromwyn was very upset she could not get inside her home,

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Speaker 1: John's Castle, with Lauren and Crystal. You'll recall that a

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Speaker 1: locksmith was called at the inquest in Lismore. The police

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Speaker 1: officer Matt Fordham called Heather and then Lloyd as witnesses.

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Speaker 1: They appeared after Deb Hall and just before Murray Nolan.

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Speaker 2: And you say, ma'am that at the time you had

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Speaker 2: the conversation with Bromwin about the locks and the keys

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Speaker 2: to her house, that she was very upset and she

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Speaker 2: was crying, and she said that John had threatened to

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Speaker 2: take the children from her. The same as he had

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Speaker 2: done to his first wife and taken Jody from her.

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Speaker 2: Was there any other conversation that you can recall that

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Speaker 2: Bronwyn said to you at this time.

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 3: She also said that she didn't have any access to money,

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Speaker 3: that John had closed to credit card and she didn't

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Speaker 3: have any money well. She also said that Crystal wasn't

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Speaker 3: his child, that she had her before she married John.

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Speaker 1: Heather told the inquest that after Bromin's disappearance, it was

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Speaker 1: simply said that the mother of two went missing.

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Speaker 3: And I don't have any idea because I really knew

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Speaker 3: nothing of their private life, and as far as I knew,

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Speaker 3: they seemed to get on all right. Whenever we were

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Speaker 3: in their company. We never found them quarreling or anything.

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Speaker 1: Lloyd Hargrave could no longer recall Bromwin having disclosed any

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Speaker 1: fears about losing her children to John, although that detail

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Speaker 1: was in Lloyd's statement of four years earlier. Heather and

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Speaker 1: Lloyd have since died.

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Speaker 2: And so in your statement you say that about twelve

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Speaker 2: or eighteen months prior to September nineteen ninety eight, you

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Speaker 2: spoke with Jonathan Winfield and inquired from him if he

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Speaker 2: had heard any information regarding Bronwyn, and Sir you say

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Speaker 2: that he said something to the effect that he believed

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Speaker 2: that Bronwyn had been cited in Brisbane, but that that

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Speaker 2: was all the details that you were able to obtain

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Speaker 2: from him. Have you heard any other theories as to

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Speaker 2: what may have happened to Bronwyn?

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Speaker 4: I did hear from someone, and I'm not certain who

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Speaker 4: it was, that investigations had taken place as far afield

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Speaker 4: as New Zealand and Brisbane. That's about as far as

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Speaker 4: I knew.

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Speaker 1: John's lawyer had just a couple of questions for Lloyd Hargrave.

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Speaker 1: Craig Leggett asked whether Lloyd saw any signs of a

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Speaker 1: scuffle or a disturbance when he went into the house

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Speaker 1: with Murray Nolan several days later.

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Speaker 5: No.

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Speaker 4: At the time we entered the house, I have to

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Speaker 4: admit I wasn't sure why I was going in other

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Speaker 4: than to accompany Murray because naturally he didn't want to

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Speaker 4: go in there unaccompanied. I was solely looking for any

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Speaker 4: signs of the presence of Brone.

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Speaker 1: It was a big day for Bromwin and John's neighbors.

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Speaker 1: After deb Hall and then the hard Graves were finished,

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Speaker 1: Deb's partner, Murray Nolan, went forward. At an early stage

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Speaker 1: of the questioning by Matt Fordham, we were reminded about

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Speaker 1: Murray's back injury and his hospitalization. He had arrived home

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Speaker 1: from the hospital about two pm on Saturday May fifteen.

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Speaker 2: Were you taking any medication for the pain?

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Speaker 6: I had a prescription for panadine fort at the time.

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Speaker 6: I wasn't too keen to take the panadine fort because

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Speaker 6: I just I don't like taking to me of those drugs,

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Speaker 6: and I tried to handle my pain. I tried to

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Speaker 6: build a pain threshold up from my injury.

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Speaker 2: And so when you take panadine forought, does it affect

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Speaker 2: your sense of what's happening around you.

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Speaker 6: I still remain coherent. I can probably have a conversation,

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Speaker 6: but probably after twenty minutes, I just tend to go

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Speaker 6: to sleep. That's why I use it for my injury,

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Speaker 6: maybe so I could just go to sleep.

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Speaker 2: Has there been any time when you've had delusions after

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Speaker 2: taking panadine for it? No, sir, had you ever seen

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Speaker 2: before sixteen May ninety three, had you ever seen that car,

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Speaker 2: that white Falcon being rolled down the driveway without lights

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Speaker 2: on or without its engine on before, Not that.

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Speaker 6: I've seen it roll down, but it did happen occasionally. Well,

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Speaker 6: John used to go away. He was going up and

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Speaker 6: down from Sydney to his dad's place in Nursa, and

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Speaker 6: so he was pretty curtiss in that way that he

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Speaker 6: used to leave his lights off and roll out the driveway.

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Speaker 2: And what times of the day or night would that

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Speaker 2: normally happen.

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Speaker 6: John Norman left probably one or two in the morning

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Speaker 6: on the occasions he used to go away.

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Speaker 2: Was that the first time that you'd ever heard that

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Speaker 2: car bottom out on the driveway?

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Speaker 6: Occasionally it did bottom out on that roadway, but not

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Speaker 6: as heavy as it did that day, But they actually

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Speaker 6: built the road up twenty five millimeters at the time.

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Speaker 2: You're aware that the car remained in the family until

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Speaker 2: seen ninety seven. Have you since heard that car bottom

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Speaker 2: out on the driveway to that extent before?

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Speaker 7: No.

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Speaker 1: Murray took issue with the suggestion that it was the

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Speaker 1: car bottoming out a stickler for the detail. He added,

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Speaker 1: I think it was either the towball or the exhaust

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Speaker 1: pipe because it actually dug a groove in the road.

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Speaker 2: He didn't see any doors opening or closing or anything

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Speaker 2: like that. No, and then you described the engines starting

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Speaker 2: and the lights coming on and the car driving off.

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Speaker 2: Is that correct?

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Speaker 1: That's right?

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Speaker 2: Did it appear to you as though the car had

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Speaker 2: been stopped right outside the vacant corner block.

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Speaker 6: It had gone down the bottom of Sandstone Crescent, slowly

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Speaker 6: turned to the left, continue on for probably eight or

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Speaker 6: ten meters, and then stopped.

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Speaker 1: Matt Fordham prompted Murray about the phone call that he

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Speaker 1: had received from John Winfield, who was in Sydney. The

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Speaker 1: police officer referenced Murray's nineteen ninety eight statement to police

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Speaker 1: and John ringing his neighbor and friend to ask him

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Speaker 1: to go to the house and break in. Matt Fordham

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Speaker 1: asked Murray whether John had volunteered anything about where bromwin

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Speaker 1: may have gone or what may have happened to her.

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Speaker 6: That phone call was quite short. John basically said Murray,

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Speaker 6: I want you to break into the house and have

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Speaker 6: a look around. I'll bring you back in fifteen minutes.

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Speaker 6: There was no mention of Bromman in the first phone call.

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Speaker 6: Maybe the second phone call, yes, I think he said,

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Speaker 6: was Bromman in the house. In the second phone call,

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Speaker 6: he asked me to hang the phone back up on

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Speaker 6: the hook.

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Speaker 1: Murray next saw John Winfield on his return from Sydney

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Speaker 1: with the two girls in late May. Matt Fordham questioned

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Speaker 1: whether on that occasion John had described any possible theories

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Speaker 1: of what might have happened to Brommin. No, he did not.

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Speaker 6: We basically didn't discuss Bromman at all.

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Speaker 1: John's lawyer, Craig Leggett, started with scrutiny of Murray's observations.

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Speaker 1: On the night of May sixth, the Ford Falcon reversing

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Speaker 1: from the driveway lights an engine off it's towball beneath

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Speaker 1: the boots, scraping the road as the metal bottomed out

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Speaker 1: on the bitumen of Sandstone Crescent, and then rolling silently

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Speaker 1: down the hill late at night. The lawyer put to

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Speaker 1: Murray that as John had left the house like that before,

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Speaker 1: it was not a one off, and therefore, the lawyer suggested,

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Speaker 1: it was unsurprising that Murray had not disclosed it to

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Speaker 1: police for five years until nineteen ninety eight.

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Speaker 8: Do you think because it wasn't a one off, that

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Speaker 8: is maybe the reason why he didn't sort of rush

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Speaker 8: off to the police and say, look, here's something that's

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Speaker 8: the one off.

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Speaker 6: The reason I didn't rush off to the police, which

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Speaker 6: is probably a bit of a mystery to you, is

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Speaker 6: John is a friend of mine. He was our neighbor.

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Speaker 6: He was my neighbor. I wasn't that keen to get

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Speaker 6: involved in the inquiry. I thought, if I stay out

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Speaker 6: of this. In hindsight, it was the wrong thing to do,

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Speaker 6: but I thought, I'll stay out of this and let

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Speaker 6: it all work around me and then see what happens

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Speaker 6: from there. And it was very relevant to me at

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Speaker 6: the time that the car went down without the lights

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Speaker 6: on and hit the driveway, rolled down the hill, started

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Speaker 6: down the bottom of the hill, and I kept that

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Speaker 6: in my own head.

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Speaker 8: So he spoke to Detective Discan on a number of occasions, didn't.

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Speaker 6: You Once Sergeant Discan or Detective Discan and Detective Tenby

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Speaker 6: come around to my place a few weeks later, had

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Speaker 6: a conversation with me and asked me a number of questions.

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Speaker 8: About how long did that take?

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Speaker 6: Do you think fifteen minutes?

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Speaker 8: And that was a period when you wanted to still

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Speaker 8: keep out of it.

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Speaker 1: Yes. In Murray's nineteen ninety eight statement to police, he

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Speaker 1: had mentioned that he possibly heard Romman's voice on the

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Speaker 1: Sunday morning when she was talking to Deb, Murray used

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Speaker 1: the word vaguely. Here's the context from that statement. He

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Speaker 1: had said, a vague remember Bromwin coming to our home.

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Speaker 1: John's lawyer knew that Murray was recovering at home, having

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Speaker 1: been in hospital after that painful back injury, the compression

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Speaker 1: of his spine in a surfing accident. I had winced

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Speaker 1: at his dining table when Murray and then Deb described

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Speaker 1: the incident and the injury to me during our first

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Speaker 1: face to face interviews just over a year ago.

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Speaker 6: When crushed it like a can.

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Speaker 1: Murray was in agony after his time in hospital, and

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Speaker 1: when he got home he said it was the most

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Speaker 1: pain he had felt in his life. As you heard earlier,

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Speaker 1: he was using the painkiller panadeine fort but only sparingly.

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Speaker 1: It was a gift, a free kick for a lawyer

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Speaker 1: acting on instructions and seeking to challenge someone's memory. Craig

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Speaker 1: Leggett tried to show that Murray's evidence was a bit dodgy,

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Speaker 1: as he was possibly dosed with painkillers on Sunday, May sixteen,

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Speaker 1: and Murray's use of that word vaguely to describe one

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Speaker 1: of his recollections of that Sunday morning presented an easy opening.

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Speaker 8: It wasn't because of the effect of anything that you'd

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Speaker 8: been taking by way of panadin fought or anything in

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Speaker 8: the morning of the sixteenth.

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Speaker 6: I really can't remember what drugs I took on the

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Speaker 6: morning of the sixteenth.

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Speaker 1: John's lawyer asked Murray what time he would have gone

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Speaker 1: to sleep on the Sunday night, May sixteen.

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Speaker 6: From my recollection, I'd probably say about eleven thirty.

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Speaker 1: Craig Leggett wanted to know whether Murray took a panadine

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Speaker 1: at all that day.

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Speaker 6: I haven't got a recollection of taking one, and I

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Speaker 6: more than likely wouldn't have taken one.

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Speaker 8: Now, the use of marijuana recreationally, what can you tell

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Speaker 8: His Worship about the extent of your involvement, if any,

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Speaker 8: with marijuana recreationally.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 6: I am a light yeuser of marijuana and have been

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Speaker 6: for twenty five years since I was fifteen. I'm forty now,

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Speaker 6: forty one now forty two now, and I've grown marijuana

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Speaker 6: in my backyard, harvested that marijuana, dried that marijuana out,

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Speaker 6: and smoke that marijuana. Julie, I'll probably smoke marijuana once

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Speaker 6: a year now, back ten years ago, I was probably

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Speaker 6: taken it once every three months. I'd grow one plant

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Speaker 6: a year and that plant would last me for a year.

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Speaker 8: So back in nineteen ninety three, smoking about once every

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Speaker 8: three months. And was there any taking of the marijuana

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Speaker 8: to reduce pain associated with any other injuries work or

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Speaker 8: sport injuries at any stage of your life?

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Speaker 1: Not at all.

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Speaker 9: No.

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Speaker 6: I use it as a party drug, social drug.

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Speaker 8: Did you find that at any stage when you were

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Speaker 8: using marijuana daily that it had any discernible effect.

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Speaker 1: On your memory? No, not really, No, there were.

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Speaker 8: No experiences in the nature of hallucinatory type of experiences

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Speaker 8: or anything like that, not at all.

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Speaker 6: Well, I think by the time ninety three came around,

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Speaker 6: I don't think I was smoking marijuana at all. I

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Speaker 6: didn't really take records on my marijuana use or what

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Speaker 6: I grew, or you ever had some or I didn't.

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Speaker 6: I had no plants in nineteen ninety three, but maybe

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Speaker 6: I might have.

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Speaker 1: I don't think so, can't remember one way or the other.

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Speaker 6: There was a bank robbery in Balna at the Commonwealth Bank,

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Speaker 6: and they had helicopters flying over and things like that,

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Speaker 6: and I thought, this is a bit sus so I

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Speaker 6: pulled my plants up and never replanted them. It's been

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Speaker 6: a gradual decrease over twenty five years.

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Speaker 8: Twenty five years of consistent use.

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Speaker 6: You wouldn't even say it was consistent, very light use,

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Speaker 6: I'd call it.

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Speaker 1: Craig Leggett had one final question, which he started with

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Speaker 1: the words to be fair to mister Winfield. He asked

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Speaker 1: Murray again whether it was his evidence that John had

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Speaker 1: left the house that night with the car's engine and

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Speaker 1: lights off. Definitely, and with that Murray's evidence was completed.

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Speaker 1: While recording his evidence from the courtroom transcript for this episode,

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Speaker 1: he reflected on the focus on his use of cannabis.

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Speaker 6: I was just on the truth and that was the

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Speaker 6: only thing they had. He went down that path and

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Speaker 6: he just tried to discredit me. At the time, he

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Speaker 6: only had one local newspaper, Northern Star, and was plastered

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Speaker 6: over that.

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Speaker 1: Murray and deb are even now still a bit sensitive

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Speaker 1: about the line of questioning. But John's lawyer would not

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Speaker 1: have been doing his job properly if he had not

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Speaker 1: at least tried to link Murray's smoking of the green

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Speaker 1: leafy material to the reliability of Murray's recollections after all,

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Speaker 1: Craig Leggett was literally fighting for the rest of John's life.

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Speaker 1: He is deb reflecting on it.

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Speaker 10: Well, at the time, I thought, okay, he's trying to

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Speaker 10: discredit us. That was his game plan. We had Veggie

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Speaker 10: ardens like we do now, and in the back corner

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Speaker 10: had one plant and John Murray would talk over the

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Speaker 10: fence and so John would see it. And this is

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Speaker 10: where John has picked this up. Browen was my good friend.

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Speaker 10: She knew we had the plan. You know, we'd laugh

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Speaker 10: about it and then over the years you grow out

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Speaker 10: of that because you have children, you move on.

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Speaker 6: It's not relevant. We're responsible adults.

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Speaker 1: Murray mentioned that as the inquest was unfolding day by

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Speaker 1: day in Lismore, he maintained a friendly rapport with John.

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Speaker 6: Sometimes in the breaks we sat down with one another

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Speaker 6: and spoke to one another.

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Speaker 1: Matt Fordham explained the lineup going into the witness box.

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Speaker 1: The police officer told the Deputy State coroner would be

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Speaker 1: Denise Barnard, Becky McGuire, John's daughter, Jody Bromwin's daughter Crystal.

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Speaker 1: But before day three was over, those in the Lismore

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Speaker 1: courtroom would watch a video and then it would be

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Speaker 1: entered as a formal exhibit.

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Speaker 2: There is a videotape, your Worship, which the Officer in

284
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Speaker 2: charges recently obtained from another witness. The video apparently describes

285
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Speaker 2: the missing person and John Winfield and the two children

286
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Speaker 2: when the house was being constructed in the late eighties,

287
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Speaker 2: and I think it runs for about twenty minutes. It

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Speaker 2: might allow your Worship to get a better sense of

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Speaker 2: the physical nature of Missus Winfield and give you some

290
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Speaker 2: sense of her relationship to her children. I'm told that

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Speaker 2: they'd like to see the video now, Your Worship.

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Speaker 1: Craig Legott had no objection, which meant John was agreeable

293
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Speaker 1: to the family video being seen by those in the courtroom.

294
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Speaker 5: Okay, can you give us a bit of commentary as too.

295
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Speaker 5: I think it will be fairly evident as to who

296
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Speaker 5: the persons are, but just in case there are other

297
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Speaker 5: people in the video.

298
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Speaker 2: She's got a green dress on.

299
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Speaker 1: That's bronwin Everyone in court stared ahead at the footage

300
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Speaker 1: of Bromwan with her daughters. She was willowy, smiling and

301
00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:56,120
Speaker 1: fussing over the two girls. Jodie was in there too.

302
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Speaker 1: Megan Reid recalled that it was a poignant and powerful interlude.

303
00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:04,720
Speaker 11: I think it was one of the neighbors, and it

304
00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,280
Speaker 11: was of a birthday party, and it shows bronwin playing

305
00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:10,200
Speaker 11: with the kids and how good she was with them.

306
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Speaker 1: You sid so heartbreaking, you worshiped.

307
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Speaker 8: The final matter is this I raised yesterday the potential

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Speaker 8: importance of Detective Sergeant Discan to your task. I'm instructed

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Speaker 8: detective Sergeant Discan told John Winfield that Murray Nolan had

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Speaker 8: told not to beat around the bush. Mister Winfield instructs

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Speaker 8: me that Detective Sergeant Discin told him that Murray Nolan

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Speaker 8: had reported seen the car that's the Winfield car moving

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Speaker 8: up the hill in Sandstone Crescent. Now that's different from

314
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Speaker 8: the version that mister Nolan has recounted to the court

315
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Speaker 8: under oath.

316
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Speaker 5: What this is a purported conversation that Sergeant Discan had

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Speaker 5: with mister Winfield.

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Speaker 1: Craig Leggett acknowledged that it was, as he put it,

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Speaker 1: second hand hearsay, but he added that if Graham Diskin

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00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:01,480
Speaker 1: had any note of such a conversation, it might be

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Speaker 1: helpful in explaining the evidence.

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Speaker 5: Well, I don't know what the position is with Sergeant Discin.

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Speaker 5: The sergeant might be able to enlighten the court. We've

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Speaker 5: had some discussions about it this morning.

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Speaker 1: That was the cue for Matt Fordham to explain Detective

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Speaker 1: Discan's position in so far as being a potential witness

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Speaker 1: was concerned.

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Speaker 2: Sadly, Sir, it appears that it's fairly unlikely that Sergeant

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Speaker 2: Discan will be making himself available to your Worship to

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Speaker 2: assist you, and I do apologize for that. The position

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Speaker 2: is said that he's been on sick leave. It appears

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Speaker 2: to the officer in charge that Sergeant Discan may not

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Speaker 2: be returning to work. He's informed the officer in charge

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Speaker 2: that he is unable to attend a police station and

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Speaker 2: he's unable to attend a courthouse. Your Worship, I'd like

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Speaker 2: to see Sergeant Discin give evidence in relation to a

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Speaker 2: few things in this matter, but I sadly don't think

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Speaker 2: that's going to occur without a warrant issued by your Worship.

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Speaker 5: The Coroner's Court will adopt the same attitude as any court,

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Speaker 5: and that is irrespective of whether Sergeant Discin is a

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Speaker 5: serving police officer as of now or perhaps the civilian

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Speaker 5: sometime in the future. He is still a witness that's

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Speaker 5: compellable to come to court. And give evidence if required.

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Speaker 5: That of course, is subject to his ability to give

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Speaker 5: evidence in relation to illness, and generally speaking, a court

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Speaker 5: is not going to insist on a witness giving evidence

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Speaker 5: if they have a doctor's certificate to say they are

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Speaker 5: unfit to attend court. And I'm only assuming that he

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Speaker 5: has obviously some occupational health problems that relate to his duty,

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Speaker 5: and that if he's not able to attend the courthouse

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Speaker 5: or a police station, and he's making an application to

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Speaker 5: be discharged medically unfit from the police force, one may

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Speaker 5: well wonder how effective or reliable his evidence might be.

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Speaker 5: In any event, Certainly I agree with Sergeant Fordham and

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Speaker 5: your submissions, mister Leggett, that it would be desirable to

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Speaker 5: have Sergeant diskin here. There are many questions I'm sure

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Speaker 5: that we would all like to ask him, and without

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Speaker 5: perhaps being too critical of him in his absence, which

359
00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:04,679
Speaker 5: is perhaps unfair, it's certainly apparent to me, even at

360
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Speaker 5: this stage of the inquest, that had this disappearance been

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00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,879
Speaker 5: treated a little bit more seriously by Sergeant Discan, and

362
00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,080
Speaker 5: perhaps if notations were made in running sheets which reflected

363
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Speaker 5: more accurately direct conversation rather than perhaps what might be

364
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Speaker 5: perceived as being summaries of what people may or may

365
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Speaker 5: not have said. That evidence would have been far more

366
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Speaker 5: reliable than the evidence we're relying on here. But I

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00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,359
Speaker 5: think it also should be remembered that this case doesn't

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Speaker 5: necessarily swing on the abilities or inabilities of Sergeant Discan.

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Speaker 5: There are many other questions a lot of other witnesses

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Speaker 5: still have to answer in these proceedings, and Sergeant I

371
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:43,880
Speaker 5: might talk to you in shame is about the possibility

372
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Speaker 5: of having a drive down to Lennox Head, perhaps even

373
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Speaker 5: this afternoon.

374
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Speaker 1: As the court room emptied at the end of the

375
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Speaker 1: third day of the inquest, Karl Milavanovitch and the police

376
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:59,600
Speaker 1: officer assisting the fact finding inquiry, Matt Fordham made plans

377
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Speaker 1: to go to Sandstone Crescent. The deputy State Coroner had

378
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,160
Speaker 1: heard a lot of evidence about the house in which

379
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:11,840
Speaker 1: Broman and John lived, the driveway, the sloping road down

380
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Speaker 1: to the bottom of the hill, and the vantage point

381
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,360
Speaker 1: which Murray had when he saw things on that fateful

382
00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,879
Speaker 1: Sunday night, But hearing the evidence of the physical surroundings

383
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,119
Speaker 1: was very different to seeing it with his own eyes.

384
00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:29,920
Speaker 1: Carl went to Lennox and he took it all in,

385
00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,600
Speaker 1: and he walked across the driveway of what Bromwan called

386
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Speaker 1: John's castle. He stood outside and looked at it Bromwin's prison.

387
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,959
Speaker 1: At ten fifteen am on the fourth day of the inquest,

388
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:11,160
Speaker 1: Bromwin's good friend Denise Barnard, stepped forward and waited patiently

389
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Speaker 1: for the police officer Matt Fordham's gentle opening questions. Denise

390
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,639
Speaker 1: and her husband, lez a builder, were sometimes on a

391
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:24,320
Speaker 1: different page when it came to questioning Bronwin's fate. Denise

392
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:28,479
Speaker 1: believed that she knew Bromwin well. She regarded suggestions that

393
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Speaker 1: the doting mother would go away, stay away and start

394
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 1: a new life as ridiculous. But the inquest was about

395
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,639
Speaker 1: much more than opinions and feelings. It was a fact

396
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Speaker 1: finding exercise. What when, where, how? Questions of why had

397
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:49,600
Speaker 1: less weight they would invite opinions feelings.

398
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 2: You say in your statement, ma'am, that Bronwin would often

399
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 2: tell you that John appeared to be nice when he

400
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,879
Speaker 2: was in a group of people, but she would always say,

401
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:03,199
Speaker 2: everyone thinks that John is a real cool, surfy but

402
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 2: he's not what he seems. Ma'am. You say in your

403
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:10,080
Speaker 2: statement also that Bronwin told you that on one occasion,

404
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 2: John had pinned her up against a wall and that

405
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 2: she was really scared that he was going to hurt her.

406
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 2: You cannot remember exactly what it was over, but it

407
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,840
Speaker 2: was something very trivial, ma'am. Do you recall how long

408
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,119
Speaker 2: before Bronwn went missing that you may have heard that conversation.

409
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:28,200
Speaker 7: It was quite a while.

410
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:33,720
Speaker 1: Denise confirmed that she did not see injuries on Bromwin's body.

411
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:38,640
Speaker 1: Bromwyn had not disclosed to Denise any other incidence of violence,

412
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:43,440
Speaker 1: but Bromwin had described her determination to separate from John

413
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,400
Speaker 1: and start a new life for her and her daughters,

414
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 1: Crystal and Lauren.

415
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 2: Did she ever discuss with you her plans with respect

416
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:52,159
Speaker 2: to the children.

417
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,359
Speaker 12: Well, the children would have been with Braun. She wouldn't

418
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:56,640
Speaker 12: have gone without the children.

419
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,400
Speaker 2: Did she ever tell you that that was the case. Well,

420
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:01,439
Speaker 2: you just knew.

421
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,399
Speaker 12: If you knew Bronwyn, you knew that the children were

422
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 12: her priority. They were always with her.

423
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,399
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham asked about the clairvoyant and tarot card reader

424
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:16,200
Speaker 1: Pendragon and Jacko. Denise had little to add apart from

425
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,880
Speaker 1: flatly rejecting the idea that Bromwin could have gone away

426
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 1: with one of them. Denise confirmed that she had gone

427
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,720
Speaker 1: with deb Haul to the property Bromwin had been renting

428
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 1: in Byron Street, and it was Denise's husband, Lez who

429
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 1: had obtained the ladder they used to get inside the place.

430
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 1: They're not Jehovah's witnesses.

431
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 2: Did you see much in the way of furniture or

432
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:39,920
Speaker 2: possessions there?

433
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,920
Speaker 12: There wasn't a lot. There were some of those fluffy toys,

434
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:46,879
Speaker 12: a few bits of clothing. The furniture as it was.

435
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,920
Speaker 12: I'd actually lent Broun a print of mine to put

436
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 12: into the unit to make it look nice, and I

437
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 12: noticed that it was still there.

438
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 2: And ma'am, since the disappearance of Bronwin, have you ever

439
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 2: spoken with John Winfield about her appearance?

440
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:05,119
Speaker 12: We had many conversations soon after a lot. Because my

441
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,719
Speaker 12: statement was actually never taken until five years after the fact.

442
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 12: I can't remember a lot of the conversations, but they

443
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,439
Speaker 12: were normal conversations about where he thought she just walked

444
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 12: off and left him. I was of another belief that

445
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 12: she wouldn't have done it.

446
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 2: You say that he indicated she simply walked off and

447
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,199
Speaker 2: left him. Did he indicate to you at any stage,

448
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,879
Speaker 2: where she may have gone or who she may have

449
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:29,440
Speaker 2: gone with.

450
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 1: No Denise told the inquest that after Bromwin disappeared, her girls,

451
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:39,479
Speaker 1: Crystal and Lawrence stopped going to playgroup. They were rarely

452
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 1: seen at other school functions. Finally, Denise agreed that John

453
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,639
Speaker 1: had told her of Bromwin's purported return to the house

454
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 1: and her purported leaving of the medicare check. Matt Fordham

455
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 1: had nothing further, and John's lawyer, Craig Leggett, opted to

456
00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 1: keep his powder dry.

457
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 8: I have no questions for missus Barnard, thank you.

458
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,879
Speaker 1: Near the start of this podcast investigation, in early twenty

459
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,880
Speaker 1: twenty four, when I met Denise for the first time

460
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 1: at the house that Les built in Lennox Head, Bromlin's

461
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 1: good friend remembered something It had thrown her immediately after

462
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 1: her evidence that day in Lismore.

463
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 11: I got down off the witness box that day and

464
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 11: when we were leaving, John gave me the wink. I

465
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,400
Speaker 11: still remember that as clear as day.

466
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,360
Speaker 1: So I didn't know that what happened when.

467
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 11: You're talking in the witness box is watching it the

468
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 11: whole time, and when we left he me the wink.

469
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 11: Why I don't know, but I can just remember it

470
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 11: still vividly.

471
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 1: Did you take it as him approving of your evidence?

472
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 11: I took it as him being like, well done, they're

473
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 11: not going to get me.

474
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 1: Did you have expectations then that there would be some

475
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 1: rest Well, we all.

476
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 11: Thought there would be when there was the inquest.

477
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 2: I call Rebecca maguire, ma'am. In your statement, you described

478
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 2: that you were friends with Jody Winfield alias Mayne since

479
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 2: you were about thirteen years of age. Is that correct, yep,

480
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 2: that's correct. You described that you've been to Jody's house

481
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 2: in Sandstone Crescent on a number of occasions before Bronwin

482
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 2: went missing. Is that correct?

483
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 13: Yep.

484
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,360
Speaker 2: And you described that there were some arguments that you'd

485
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 2: witnessed inside the house between John and Bronwin. Is that correct?

486
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 13: Yeah, not real major ones.

487
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 2: Did you ever see any violence between them?

488
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 4: No.

489
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,160
Speaker 1: Although she was one of the last people to see

490
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 1: Bromwin alive, Becky McGuire was not expected to be a

491
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 1: controversial witness. Her written statement in nineteen ninety eight had

492
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 1: included an observation that Bromwin was, as Becky put it,

493
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 1: babbling about something. The front door of the home at

494
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:06,119
Speaker 1: Sandstone Crescent, on the night John Winfield arrived there Sunday evening.

495
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,439
Speaker 2: Do you remember what your understanding was as to the

496
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 2: problem that he was trying to overcome.

497
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 13: He more or less just wanted to pick up his stuff.

498
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,440
Speaker 14: He'd just come back from Sydney and he was staying

499
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 14: in a motel downtown of Lennox and he just didn't

500
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 14: want to upset the kids and didn't want any hussles.

501
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:24,440
Speaker 14: He just wanted to get it and go back to

502
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 14: the motel.

503
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:30,919
Speaker 1: This was a very surprising disclosure. Becky Maguire had not

504
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,400
Speaker 1: said anything about a motel in her written statement four

505
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 1: years earlier. Nowhere in the brief of evidence was there

506
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 1: any reference to John staying in a nearby motel.

507
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 2: Do you remember which motel he said he was staying at.

508
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 14: Yes, it's the one opposite the food store in Lenox Head.

509
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 14: It might have been called Gradwell's Flats at that stage.

510
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: Rebecca Maguire then recalled that John Winfield was possibly dropped

511
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 1: off there on the way back from Sandstone c It

512
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 1: was confusing and unexpected evidence.

513
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 2: Do you remember being told why John Winfield wanted you

514
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 2: at the house.

515
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 14: He just basically he just didn't want to freak the kids.

516
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 14: He didn't want any domestics. He just wanted to go

517
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 14: there and get it.

518
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham reiterated what she had previously said, including that

519
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: she and John went to the house and walked to

520
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: the front door while John Watson did a U turn

521
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 1: and drove off. Becky could not remember those details as

522
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: she sat at the inquest in Lismore on the fourth

523
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: day of proceedings.

524
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 14: With that statement, a lot of it was just confusion

525
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 14: because I was pretty young when it all happened, so

526
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 14: some of it is correct, some of it is confused

527
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 14: with just events that have happened in my life that

528
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 14: might have just got mixed up. From what I can remember,

529
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 14: he just knocked on the door, and ron Wood ouncewid

530
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 14: and the two girls were standing beside her.

531
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 2: Did it strike you with strange that he had to

532
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 2: knock on the front door of his own house.

533
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 14: No, My family has been through too, so No, I've

534
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 14: seen stuff, and not in that family, but just life

535
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 14: in general. I was pretty much standing right near them.

536
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 14: They weren't yelling or anything. They were talking and I'm

537
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 14: pretty sure he just said he was staying down at

538
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 14: the motel. We weren't there for long at all, just

539
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 14: got his stuff and pretty much left.

540
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 1: She recalled that Lauren was crying John gave her a cuddle.

541
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,239
Speaker 1: She also remembered the suitcases which John picked up and

542
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 1: put into the car, but in the inquest, Becky's version

543
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 1: was that the suitcases went into John Watson's vehicle, not

544
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 1: the wind Field Ford Falcon.

545
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 14: He put them in the back of John's fall drive thing,

546
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 14: and John Watson drove us back.

547
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 13: I thought they were just closed that he was picking up.

548
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 2: And what was John's demeanor at the time.

549
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 14: More or less just go back to the motel and

550
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 14: get some rest, because he'd just gotten back into town

551
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 14: that day.

552
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 2: Did he ever indicate to you any intention at that

553
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 2: point for him to return to Sydney that evening.

554
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 13: No, he didn't say anything.

555
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 2: And ma'am, after you left the house yourself and John

556
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 2: Winfield got back into John Watson's truck, is that correct?

557
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: Yep.

558
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 13: We dropped him off in front of the motel.

559
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 15: Yep.

560
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 13: The motel is on that side.

561
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 14: And he crossed the road and went straight in and

562
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 14: said thanks very much, sorry about it all, and that

563
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 14: was it.

564
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: In the nine years since that night, Becky said she

565
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: had not talked to John or to her best friend

566
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 1: Jody about Brommin's disappearance, And that was another disclosure which

567
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 1: must have surprised those watching the evidence unfold. The unexplained

568
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: disappearance of Jody's stepmother, John's wife, a police investigation, years

569
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 1: of speculation in the community, but according to Becky, it

570
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: had never come up in her conversations with one of

571
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 1: her best friends.

572
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 14: Yeah, I've never really brought the topic up. If she

573
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 14: wanted to talk to me about it, she could have,

574
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 14: but I didn't bring it up.

575
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 2: No, did she ever indicate to you any theory as

576
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 2: to how she may have left the house or disappeared

577
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 2: or anything like that.

578
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 14: No, I don't think we discussed it at all.

579
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 1: When it was Craig Leggott's turn, he read aloud from

580
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 1: her nineteen ninety eight statement, so fundamentally different from what

581
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 1: she had been describing in her sworn evidence in the courtroom.

582
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 8: That's consistent with how John Watson remembered the events, but

583
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 8: it seems to be a little bit different from how

584
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 8: you're remembering them now.

585
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 14: Yeah, I've sort of I've had It's been a long

586
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 14: time for me. I was sixteen seven months pregnant, so

587
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 14: but as I said in my statement, I said, I

588
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 14: couldn't be sure how much of it is correct.

589
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 1: John's lawyer asked whether her evidence about the motel was

590
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 1: possibly incorrect too.

591
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 13: Yeah, I'm not real clear on the whole night.

592
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 14: I've just basically tried to put into perspective and as

593
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 14: I said, like basically given a slight picture, whether it's

594
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 14: one hundred percent, I couldn't say.

595
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 1: Glenn Taylor was recalled to the witness stand for a

596
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 1: few formalities. Some document which were not in the original

597
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: brief of evidence needed to be formally recognized as exhibits.

598
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 16: They were in a box of old material that Detective

599
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 16: Sergeant disk In had gathered. I believe they relate to

600
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 16: a running sheet he put in where he indicated that

601
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 16: he attended the home of bromwin Winfield and obtained various letters.

602
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 16: It doesn't actually specify what the letters contained in the

603
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 16: running sheets were.

604
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 6: So it was a little bit difficult.

605
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 16: I could only go by what the running sheet stays,

606
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 16: and it's not really clear. It just says attended saidstand

607
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 16: cresent and took possession of a number of private letters.

608
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 1: I believe that they were in the house matt Fordham

609
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 1: put it to the detective that the letters were written

610
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: by Bromwin and were intended for a number of people

611
00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 1: in the form in which they were in when they

612
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 1: were they.

613
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 2: Were drafts of a letter that the deceased may have

614
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 2: sent to these people, because they substantially repeated themselves and

615
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 2: expanded and corrected spelling mistakes.

616
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 1: The detective agreed, adding that the dates on the letters

617
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,840
Speaker 1: were from May three to May thirteen.

618
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,320
Speaker 2: And so is it the case that there also appears

619
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 2: amongst the bound notepad to be some notes as to

620
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 2: what missus Winfield intended to do on the weekend that

621
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,319
Speaker 2: she disappeared and in the week following it.

622
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 1: Glenn Taylor did not disagree. Matt Fordham then talked about

623
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: some of the things Bromwin was planning to do.

624
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 2: Guitar lessons. And it says drop Lauren at Emily's place correct.

625
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 2: Then it says Crystal and I go to real estate

626
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:56,239
Speaker 2: assessments correct. Then it says babysitter for Saturday night.

627
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 1: Correct.

628
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 2: Then there's a number Virgil or daughter and a telephone number.

629
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 2: Is that correct? It does say that, yes, And it

630
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 2: does say also on the next line down Sunday underlined,

631
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 2: and then work twelve to four pm correct.

632
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham continued reading what was in essence an ad

633
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 1: hoc diary showing all the mundane things which Bromwin was

634
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 1: attending to. Nowhere in this document was there any reference

635
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 1: to going on a break, to being away from her

636
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:34,320
Speaker 1: children for any length of time. To the contrary, many

637
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,760
Speaker 1: of the references revolved around her two daughters.

638
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 2: And then it says car reregistration slips.

639
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 1: Bromwin was prioritizing that one the word must was underlined.

640
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham then moved on to Detective Sergeant Discan's unavailability

641
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 1: for the inquest and.

642
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 2: A medical certificate indicating that he is unfit to work

643
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 2: from it appears to be three May two thousand and

644
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 2: two until three November two thousand and two.

645
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 1: Glenn Taylor agreed that he had a copy of a

646
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 1: similar medical certificate from two thousand and one until May

647
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 1: two thousand and two for Detective disk In. Nobody was

648
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 1: expecting him to return to work, nor would he be

649
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 1: appearing at Bromwin joy Winfield's inquest. Glenn was questioned about

650
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 1: the possibilities of obtaining call charge records for the landline

651
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 1: telephone at Sandstone Crescent. He explained that an hour earlier,

652
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:40,320
Speaker 1: a manager in Telstra's Law Enforcement Liaison section, Kingsley Banister,

653
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 1: had advised another police officer.

654
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 16: That local calls could definitely not be traced in nineteen

655
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 16: ninety three. The technology only became a vilable sometime in

656
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 16: nineteen ninety seven. From nineteen ninety three, the only technology

657
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 16: that was a vilable was STD calls.

658
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,319
Speaker 1: Now, you'll recall that near the end of season two

659
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 1: we touched on the crucial importance of local calls in

660
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 1: this case. If Bromwin did make a local call resulting

661
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: in someone coming to pick her up, then John Winfield's

662
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 1: story would sound more plausible. But if Bromwin did not

663
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 1: make such a call, and if records were available then

664
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:29,760
Speaker 1: to show this and perhaps still available now, then John's

665
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 1: claim looks like a lie. I have received dozens of

666
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 1: emails and other messages from people sharing their knowledge about

667
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 1: local calls and opinions and feedback from these people, some

668
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 1: of whom were Telstra and Telecom staff. However, most of

669
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 1: the responses suggested that local call data did exist and

670
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:55,360
Speaker 1: could have been obtained in nineteen ninety three, but was

671
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:59,760
Speaker 1: it available from the local exchange then it's a key question.

672
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 1: Karina Berger and I are going to revisit this in

673
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: an upcoming episode and draw on the information that we

674
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 1: have received from different sources including Telstra, matt Fordham Chain Stride.

675
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 2: And sir, have you made the inquiries in relation to

676
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 2: witness by the name of Lena.

677
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 1: Glenn Taylor confirmed that he had talked to her. However,

678
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 1: when he contacted her again to make final plans to

679
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 1: see her to take a statement.

680
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 16: He indicated to me that she did not wish to

681
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 16: be spoken to, did not wish to be interviewed, and

682
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 16: she informed me he reasons why she didn't wish to

683
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:44,760
Speaker 16: be interview She indicated certain fears she held herself about

684
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 16: becoming involved.

685
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 1: So no, he has not been interview You will recall

686
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:54,760
Speaker 1: that Lena's name came up in episode twenty eight when

687
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: we reconstructed some of Andy Reid's evidence at the inquest

688
00:38:58,680 --> 00:38:59,839
Speaker 1: in two thousand and two.

689
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 17: She confided in me that she did not want to

690
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,839
Speaker 17: be seen or even be in the same room as

691
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 17: Jonathan Winfield ever again in her life, she said to

692
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 17: me she labeled him a doctor Jekyll and mister Hyde.

693
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 1: And in an upcoming episode, you will hear more about Lena,

694
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 1: her relationship with John, which began about a year after

695
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 1: Bromin's disappearance, and her subsequent decision to terminate their connection

696
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:33,280
Speaker 1: and try to have nothing to do with him again.

697
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 2: Ma'am, could you please tell us your full name?

698
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 7: Jody Lynn Mayne.

699
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: Andy Reid recalls there was a discernible change of atmosphere

700
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,880
Speaker 1: in the court room as John's eldest daughter walked to

701
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: the witness stand at eleven ten am. Jody's actions on

702
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:18,240
Speaker 1: the first day, when she spoke of Bromwin being alive

703
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 1: and well and probably living up the road in a

704
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 1: hippie community in Nimbon, had turned the inquest into a

705
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 1: theater of the absurd. But still stranger things have happened.

706
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 1: One year after Bromwin's inquest, serial killer Leonard John Fraser

707
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,800
Speaker 1: was on trial for murder in Brisbane over the slaying

708
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 1: of a teenager, Natasha Ryan. Five years had elapsed since

709
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 1: the schoolgirl disappeared she was aged fourteen, nobody had been recovered.

710
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 1: It is highly probable that Fraser would have been convicted

711
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 1: by the jury in the Old Supreme Court building on

712
00:40:55,280 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 1: George Street. The monstrous child killer's notoriety preceded him suddenly,

713
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 1: though his murder trial was halted and the Crown prosecutor

714
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 1: made an extraordinary disclosure to the trial judge. Police believed

715
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 1: that they had found Natasha Ryan, not her remains. Natasha

716
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 1: was alive and well. For five years. She had been

717
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,240
Speaker 1: living and hiding in a house one hundred meters from

718
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 1: her family home in the central Queensland town of Rockhampton.

719
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: Natasha had been in a relationship with a young man,

720
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 1: Scott Black. They wanted to be together. The weeks turned

721
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 1: into months and then years. Police and her family were

722
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 1: sure she had been abducted and murdered by Fraser. When

723
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: visitors would go to the house in which she and

724
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,640
Speaker 1: Black were living together, Natasha would hide in a cupboard.

725
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 1: Seasoned detectives, prosecutors and judges were staggered by the turn

726
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: of events. You could not make this story up. It

727
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 1: was so bizarre. The ten Networks reporter Tony Fabris was

728
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 1: on the scene tonight. Natasha Ryan's father speaks out exclusively

729
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 1: about getting back the daughter he had given up for death.

730
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:11,919
Speaker 18: You feel like you want to cuddle he so bad.

731
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 18: Then you also want to sort of boot her in

732
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,839
Speaker 18: the bum. For what she's put you through. It I

733
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:21,720
Speaker 18: couldn't stop cuddling. It was like I saw a ghost,

734
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 18: not a.

735
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 2: Ghost, but his daughter, now a young woman, overwhelmed by

736
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 2: the world she's returned to.

737
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 18: She's very beautiful, very pale, and very confused and frightened

738
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:38,840
Speaker 18: that she's alive.

739
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham started on an ominous note. He was flagging

740
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 1: that things could get a bit bumpy for Jody and

741
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:53,360
Speaker 1: that she might potentially even incriminate herself in the hours ahead.

742
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:57,440
Speaker 2: Firstly, have you received any legal advice in relation to

743
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:00,840
Speaker 2: your attendance at court and giving evidence in relation to

744
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:05,440
Speaker 2: this matter? No, ma'am. I want you to understand that

745
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 2: if at any stage during your evidence you believe that

746
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 2: you need some legal advice, I'd like you to indicate

747
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 2: that to us, and if necessary, I think your Worship

748
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 2: will pause the proceedings so that that can be obtained.

749
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 2: Do you understand that?

750
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:20,280
Speaker 7: Okay?

751
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 2: Yep?

752
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:26,479
Speaker 1: Jody appeared unflustered. Matt Fordham started to take her through

753
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 1: parts of her written statement from August nineteen ninety eight.

754
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 2: Did Brown ever discuss with you any arguments she had

755
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 2: with your father?

756
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,359
Speaker 7: We quite often talked about arguments because dad and I

757
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 7: used to argue a lot as I was a teenager

758
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,399
Speaker 7: wanting to go out and do things. But mainly, yeah,

759
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:46,720
Speaker 7: just about arguments between me and him. She was always

760
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 7: sort of trying to be the go between on things like.

761
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:53,360
Speaker 1: Jody was asked about the configuration of the garage and

762
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 1: it was soon established that there was an interconnecting door

763
00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 1: which was probably lockable between the garage and the house.

764
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 1: She was asked about her father being, as Matt Fordham put.

765
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 2: It, barely particular in the way that he liked his

766
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 2: house maintained.

767
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 7: Yes, he was fussy around the house at the time

768
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 7: when I lived there, I thought he was fussy, but

769
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,359
Speaker 7: I was a teenager. Now, being twenty eight and having

770
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 7: a family and maintaining a house myself, I don't really

771
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:21,880
Speaker 7: see any difference between the way I care for my

772
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 7: home as he did his.

773
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 1: Jody spoke of being aged about twelve when she met Bromwin.

774
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 2: And you knew that she, for example, would have kept

775
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 2: her handbag with her personal items. Yep, she would have

776
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 2: maintained inside that handbag. She would have kept things like

777
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:40,319
Speaker 2: sunglasses and lipstick and things like.

778
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 7: That, wouldn't she Yes, she always had that sort of

779
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 7: thing with her.

780
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 2: She would have kept things like her purse with her

781
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 2: driver's license in it, for example. Yes, she would have

782
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 2: kept in that purse some credit cards. Is that correct?

783
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 7: I don't know if she had credit cards.

784
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 2: She would have kept in that handbag. Perhaps a diary

785
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 2: of her plans for the future. Is that correct?

786
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 7: I don't know. I don't remember. I don't think so.

787
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 7: I don't know.

788
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 2: She would have kept some photos of our children inside

789
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 2: that handbag. Is that correct?

790
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 13: Yes?

791
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 1: On and on the list went. Matt Fordham raised other items,

792
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 1: and the dress book of telephone numbers for people that

793
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:24,800
Speaker 1: Bromwin knew, and receipts for recent purchases. Jody agreed, yes,

794
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 1: Bromwyn would have most probably kept these in her handbag.

795
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,400
Speaker 2: Ma'am. Are you aware of any time before Bronwin disappeared

796
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 2: where Bronwin may have left the children unattended at any stage? Yes?

797
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:38,840
Speaker 2: I am, And what are those times?

798
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 7: Well, it was only once I was in Sydney, and

799
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:44,279
Speaker 7: I think it was the Saturday before she disappeared. I

800
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,240
Speaker 7: rang the house. I don't know why I rang the house.

801
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:49,160
Speaker 7: I don't know if Dad had told me that he

802
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:51,760
Speaker 7: thought she was home. I don't know how that happened.

803
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:54,320
Speaker 7: But I rang the home, and actually the night before

804
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:56,839
Speaker 7: I rang her and spoke to her. That was when

805
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 7: we had a bit of an argument.

806
00:45:58,640 --> 00:45:59,879
Speaker 2: That's the Friday night.

807
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 7: The Friday night, the Saturday, I rang the house and

808
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 7: Crystal answered the phone and I asked where bronwin was

809
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 7: and she said that Bronwyn had gone out and she

810
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 7: would be home at four o'clock. I asked her who

811
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 7: was there with her and she said just Lauren, And

812
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 7: I said, well, who's minding you?

813
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:15,319
Speaker 2: Like who?

814
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 7: She said, nobody, I'm on my own. And she seemed

815
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:20,799
Speaker 7: to be quite happy because she was babysitting, and I

816
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 7: suppose she felt like she was doing a job with that.

817
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,479
Speaker 2: Are you aware of any arguments between Bronwyn and mister

818
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:28,720
Speaker 2: Winfield about money?

819
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 7: No, I don't really know what they used to argue about.

820
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:35,879
Speaker 2: In the months before Bronwyn disappeared. Do you recall ever

821
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 2: discussing with Bronwan on the telephone? Her arguments with your father.

822
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:42,720
Speaker 7: Before she disappeared, like months before?

823
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 1: Yes?

824
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:44,960
Speaker 7: No, not really.

825
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:48,360
Speaker 2: Was there any incidents that you know of that caused

826
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:50,840
Speaker 2: her to move out of the home at Sandstone Crescent?

827
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:55,880
Speaker 7: No, not any specific incident at all the arguments that

828
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:58,360
Speaker 7: you were aware of in the time that you stayed

829
00:46:58,400 --> 00:46:59,760
Speaker 7: with Bronwyn and your father.

830
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 2: Did they ever result in violence between them?

831
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:04,560
Speaker 7: No, not that I saw.

832
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 2: And you're absolutely certain that you never saw any injuries

833
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 2: on Bronwe.

834
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 7: No, never, never.

835
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 2: You never saw any acts of violence towards Bronwin whatsoever. No,

836
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 2: you never saw any fights to generate to the point

837
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 2: where there was physical contact between them.

838
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 7: No, I've never seen.

839
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 2: That, and you're absolutely certain of that. Yep, ma'am. Have

840
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 2: you ever informed anyone else that you've seen acts of

841
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 2: violence between the two No, And you're absolutely certain that

842
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:37,400
Speaker 2: you've never told anyone that there's been violence in the

843
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 2: family in the past.

844
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 4: No.

845
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:41,400
Speaker 7: I've heard all the rumors, but I've never seen it

846
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:42,400
Speaker 7: with my own two eyes.

847
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:45,759
Speaker 2: And so, for example, if I was to suggest to

848
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 2: you that there was an allegation that a chair was

849
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 2: thrown at Bronwe, that would be incorrect, Is that right?

850
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 7: I know about the chair incident. I don't know how

851
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:57,880
Speaker 7: I heard about the chair incident, but I definitely didn't

852
00:47:57,920 --> 00:47:58,279
Speaker 7: see it.

853
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:00,720
Speaker 2: What do you know about the chare incident?

854
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 7: Well, it was just one of the many little things

855
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 7: that went around. I don't know if Bronwin told me herself,

856
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 7: because obviously this happened when she was still around. She

857
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 7: might have told me herself. She might have told Megan

858
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 7: on occasional times. I think I've spoken to Megan in

859
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 7: the past. Megan might have relayed it to me. I

860
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 7: don't know how I know about it, but there's a

861
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 7: few ways I could have known about it.

862
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:24,440
Speaker 2: And did you ever discuss that incident with Bronwin?

863
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 1: No?

864
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 2: And what do you understand the allegations about the chair.

865
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:31,879
Speaker 7: To be well, only what Michelle said the other day,

866
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:34,399
Speaker 7: and I hadn't really even thought that much about it.

867
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 2: What do you understand Michelle to have said the other day.

868
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:40,720
Speaker 7: That I was there and that I saw what happened,

869
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 7: and that he threw the chair or something like that.

870
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 2: You sound as though it surprised you to hear that evidence.

871
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 2: Is that correct?

872
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 7: No, I just sort of kind of forgot about that.

873
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:53,320
Speaker 7: That was just but when I heard it, I remembered

874
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:55,840
Speaker 7: about the chair incident, but I don't remember. I have

875
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:58,920
Speaker 7: absolutely no memory of being there or even discussing it

876
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:01,719
Speaker 7: with Michelle, and I actually don't even remember taking a

877
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:03,879
Speaker 7: present to her child. I don't remember that at all.

878
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:09,120
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham read part of Michelle Reid's nineteen ninety eight statement.

879
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 1: He went to the part in which, according to Michelle,

880
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:16,800
Speaker 1: Jody had disclosed that her father and Bromwin argued often,

881
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:19,879
Speaker 1: and on one occasion she saw her father.

882
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:22,400
Speaker 7: Pick Bronwyn up in a chair and hold her and

883
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 7: the chair high up into the air.

884
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:29,160
Speaker 1: According to Michelle, Jody then saw her father drop the

885
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:33,320
Speaker 1: chair with Bromwin in it. It frightened Jody and Bromwin.

886
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 7: No, I honestly have no recollection of ever talking to

887
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:39,920
Speaker 7: Michelle about it, That's honest. I don't remember talking to her.

888
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 7: I don't even remember giving her a present. I don't

889
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:45,000
Speaker 7: even remember going to her house and seeing her.

890
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:49,239
Speaker 1: Here is a reminder of something you heard early in

891
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:53,319
Speaker 1: this podcast investigation. It came out of my visit to

892
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 1: Michelle's house to see her and Andy in early twenty

893
00:49:57,000 --> 00:49:59,880
Speaker 1: twenty four, and Michelle told me back then about it.

894
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:02,760
Speaker 1: Is it by Jody to the read home in the Shire.

895
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:08,320
Speaker 1: Michelle and Andy's son, Mitchell had just been born. Broman

896
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 1: was in Lennox Head, determined to leave John for good.

897
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 1: Jody was learning to be a hairdresser at the intercuts

898
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:19,720
Speaker 1: hair salon in the Shire, and Jody had thoughtfully dropped

899
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:22,760
Speaker 1: in to see Michelle and the newborn Mitchell.

900
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:26,240
Speaker 6: I said, did they ever argue?

901
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 9: Like, was there ever any arguments and stuff like that?

902
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 9: And she said, oh, I remember one day Bromman was

903
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:38,400
Speaker 9: sitting in a chair and he picked her up in

904
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:41,239
Speaker 9: the chair and dropped it with her in it.

905
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 13: That was an argument they were having.

906
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 15: And I was really surprised, like I hadn't heard stuff

907
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:53,240
Speaker 15: like that before, and I'd written that down, of course,

908
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:55,719
Speaker 15: and that was in nineteen ninety three.

909
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 1: It is, of course normal to forget things. Our memory

910
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:05,680
Speaker 1: must be selective, and the reasons why we forget some

911
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:08,840
Speaker 1: things but remember others is a bit of a mystery.

912
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:13,360
Speaker 1: A witness who says, sorry, I just can't remember, or

913
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:17,640
Speaker 1: I've completely forgotten about that I don't know presents a

914
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 1: significant challenge to a questioner, because unless there is tangible

915
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:26,760
Speaker 1: evidence of a conspiracy to lie about having forgotten certain things,

916
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 1: how can anyone prove that the witness is lying about

917
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 1: something as personal as memory. The witness with a sketchy

918
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 1: or poor memory, who says very little in response to

919
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 1: questions makes the job of a questioning lawyer that much harder.

920
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 1: Jody was not leaving matt fordam much to work with.

921
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:51,640
Speaker 2: Ma'am. Your mother is Jennifer Mason? Is that correct?

922
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:52,479
Speaker 13: Yes?

923
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:57,280
Speaker 1: John Winfield and his young bride were wed in nineteen

924
00:51:57,400 --> 00:51:59,520
Speaker 1: seventy three, and it's the.

925
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:03,319
Speaker 2: Case that sadly their marriage deteriorated and that there was

926
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 2: a separation and divorce between your mother and your father.

927
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:07,920
Speaker 2: Is that correct?

928
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:08,800
Speaker 7: Yes?

929
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:11,720
Speaker 2: And what did your father tell you about Jennifer?

930
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 7: I don't really remember, to be honest, I lived with

931
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 7: my dad and my grandparents, and I never really I

932
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:19,759
Speaker 7: was only so young, I didn't really question why I

933
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 7: was there.

934
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 2: But over the years, what's your understanding of the reason

935
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:27,239
Speaker 2: why you ended up with your father and not your mother?

936
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:30,719
Speaker 7: Well, my mom didn't have suitable ways of caring for me,

937
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 7: and dad's parents obviously had the better option.

938
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 2: Did you feel it was strange that your father didn't

939
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:39,880
Speaker 2: arrange for you to speak with your mother over the years,

940
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:42,160
Speaker 2: that all of the contact that you had with your

941
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:45,680
Speaker 2: mother appeared to come through grandparents and other people.

942
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:47,400
Speaker 7: No, not really.

943
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 1: Jody agreed that she stayed in fairly regular telephone contact

944
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:56,920
Speaker 1: with Bromwin after her stepmother's move to the Byron Street

945
00:52:56,960 --> 00:53:01,320
Speaker 1: flat and the start of Bromman's formal set option from John.

946
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 2: What does she tell you about the clairvoyant?

947
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:07,719
Speaker 7: She told me that the clairvoyant had told her to

948
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:10,279
Speaker 7: move back into the house, and somewhere she told me

949
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 7: that the clairvoyant was her father reincarnated, or something along

950
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:14,720
Speaker 7: those lines.

951
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:18,160
Speaker 2: She never spoke to you about legal advice that she'd obtained.

952
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:20,719
Speaker 7: No, she never told me anything about that.

953
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:25,759
Speaker 2: Did she ever speak with you about consulting the domestic

954
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 2: violence support group?

955
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:28,000
Speaker 7: Never?

956
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:31,719
Speaker 2: Did you tell your father that the clair voyant had

957
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:34,480
Speaker 2: advised Bronwin to move back into the house.

958
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 7: I don't know. I may have, I may not have.

959
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:38,759
Speaker 7: I don't really know.

960
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham took Jody to the Friday evening on which

961
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:47,240
Speaker 1: Bronwin had moved back into Sandstone Crescent with Lauren and Crystal.

962
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 1: Jody had telephoned the house and she spoke to Bromwin

963
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 1: that night.

964
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 7: Her attitude had change towards me. She wasn't like she

965
00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:58,239
Speaker 7: normally is with me. We were quite friendly until that night.

966
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 7: Her attitude had completely changed. I asked her why, and

967
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:03,760
Speaker 7: she said, because this is my house.

968
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:09,240
Speaker 1: Jody's memory definitely got better when it came to answering

969
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:15,040
Speaker 1: some questions about Bromwin's purported conduct and conversations, but on

970
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 1: other matters, like her father's conduct and conversations, Jody's forgettory

971
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 1: came to the fore.

972
00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 7: We started to get into an argument and I told

973
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:27,520
Speaker 7: her it wasn't her house. She told me Dad can

974
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:30,120
Speaker 7: stay in Sydney with me, and we argued and got

975
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:32,360
Speaker 7: into quite a bit of an argument, and then she

976
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:33,040
Speaker 7: hung up on me.

977
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:36,920
Speaker 1: Jody agreed that the argument was intense.

978
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:40,439
Speaker 2: Did she indicate to you whether the locks had been

979
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:41,760
Speaker 2: changed when she moved?

980
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:44,839
Speaker 7: No, I don't know anything about the locks. I've never

981
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:47,160
Speaker 7: talked about it with her or Dad for that matter.

982
00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 2: You see, ma'am, you've had this argument with Bronwin on

983
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:54,320
Speaker 2: the phone on the Friday in relation to who owns

984
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:57,640
Speaker 2: the house, whose house it is, and you've heard it

985
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:01,719
Speaker 2: suggested at this inquest that lock had been changed. So

986
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:04,360
Speaker 2: it must be obvious to you now that both Bronwin

987
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:07,920
Speaker 2: and your father were very keen to maintain possession of

988
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:09,960
Speaker 2: the house. Would you agree with that?

989
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 7: Well, yeah, it's obvious with anybody.

990
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:16,879
Speaker 1: Jody agreed that after the argument, she probably spoke to

991
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:20,759
Speaker 1: her father about what had happened. She said John was

992
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:25,799
Speaker 1: becoming depressed and frustrated because Bromwin was limiting his telephone

993
00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:28,840
Speaker 1: contact with Crystal and Lauren, because.

994
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 7: I used to be there when he would try and

995
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 7: wring them, and she would deliberately not be there. So

996
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:35,839
Speaker 7: of course he was getting upset that he couldn't speak

997
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:38,760
Speaker 7: to his children. He was just sad, He was just quiet.

998
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:41,320
Speaker 7: He was upset that he couldn't speak to the kids.

999
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:44,719
Speaker 2: Did your father ever disclose to you that he had

1000
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:48,480
Speaker 2: changed the locks when he left the house in Sandstone Crescent?

1001
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:49,600
Speaker 7: Never?

1002
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:53,480
Speaker 2: You see, ma'am, you told your father on the Friday

1003
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:56,440
Speaker 2: that Bronwin had told you that your father was no

1004
00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:59,520
Speaker 2: longer welcome at the house in Sandstone Crescent.

1005
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:03,360
Speaker 7: You I may have, because that's what she told me.

1006
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:06,359
Speaker 7: I don't remember telling him, but I most likely would have.

1007
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:09,480
Speaker 2: And the fact that she was inside the house was

1008
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:10,319
Speaker 2: a surprise to you.

1009
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:11,240
Speaker 7: Yep.

1010
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:15,040
Speaker 2: And you also say in your statement, ma'am, that Bronwin

1011
00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:17,560
Speaker 2: told you that she was going to get a restraining

1012
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:20,240
Speaker 2: order so that your father couldn't go near the house.

1013
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:21,000
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1014
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:25,239
Speaker 2: In relation to who owned the house, you say in

1015
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:28,279
Speaker 2: your statement that you told her that it belongs to us,

1016
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:32,680
Speaker 2: being yourself, your father, and Crystal and Lauren more because

1017
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:34,759
Speaker 2: she was the one that chose to leave.

1018
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:36,759
Speaker 7: Yes, I did say that to her.

1019
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:39,920
Speaker 2: When was it that you first learned that your father

1020
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:41,919
Speaker 2: was to travel back up to Lennox Head.

1021
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:44,839
Speaker 7: It would have been the following day when I rang

1022
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:47,759
Speaker 7: the house and spoke to Crystal. Basically when we found

1023
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:50,040
Speaker 7: out Kristal was left alone with Lauren. That you know,

1024
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:53,160
Speaker 7: Dad was worried about that, and that's when he, I suppose,

1025
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:55,160
Speaker 7: looked into making arrangements for going home.

1026
00:56:56,320 --> 00:56:58,880
Speaker 2: That was the first time that you'd ever known that

1027
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:03,720
Speaker 2: Bronwin would leave the children unattended, definitely to my knowledge.

1028
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:07,640
Speaker 1: Jodie recounted, with what she said was the best of

1029
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:12,560
Speaker 1: her recollection, her Saturday morning conversation with Cristel. It happened

1030
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:15,919
Speaker 1: about thirty six hours before Bromman's disappearance.

1031
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:19,440
Speaker 7: She said that Mum went out, she didn't tell me where.

1032
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:21,919
Speaker 7: I don't think she knew where, and that she would

1033
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:24,840
Speaker 7: be home at four o'clock. She definitely knew what time,

1034
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:26,640
Speaker 7: because I said I wanted to speak to her, and

1035
00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 7: my main reason was I was not happy with her

1036
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:30,080
Speaker 7: being at home on her own.

1037
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:33,480
Speaker 2: Did you inquire as to whether there was anyone else

1038
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:34,560
Speaker 2: inside the house?

1039
00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:37,160
Speaker 7: No, I just assumed it was her and Lauren.

1040
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:40,320
Speaker 2: Would you agree that, from the perspective of a ten

1041
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:43,480
Speaker 2: year old who receives a phone call from you, she

1042
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:46,760
Speaker 2: may not realize the importance of the questions that she

1043
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:50,360
Speaker 2: is being asked by you about babysitting. Is that correct?

1044
00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:53,000
Speaker 7: I think she generally said what was going.

1045
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:56,280
Speaker 2: On, But Cristeal didn't indicate that she was worried about

1046
00:57:56,280 --> 00:57:59,200
Speaker 2: her mother, or worried about being left alone or anything

1047
00:57:59,280 --> 00:57:59,640
Speaker 2: like that.

1048
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:01,720
Speaker 7: No, she was quite happy about it.

1049
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:06,200
Speaker 2: You knew the neighbors on either side, yep, you certainly

1050
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:07,600
Speaker 2: knew Rebecca maguire.

1051
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:09,560
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1052
00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:11,720
Speaker 2: There were a number of people at Lenox Head that

1053
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:14,560
Speaker 2: could have attended the house very soon after this phone

1054
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:17,600
Speaker 2: call at nine am to look after the children. Weren't there?

1055
00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:18,320
Speaker 4: Well?

1056
00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:21,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, did you think to contact any of these people?

1057
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:22,840
Speaker 4: No?

1058
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:24,600
Speaker 7: I didn't. I honestly didn't think too.

1059
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:28,520
Speaker 2: You'd agree that this is fairly unusual for Bronwan, isn't it.

1060
00:58:29,200 --> 00:58:30,880
Speaker 7: Well, it would have been at the time I lived

1061
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:31,240
Speaker 7: at home.

1062
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 1: Jody and the police officer were far apart on the

1063
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:38,360
Speaker 1: question of what it was that caused John to rush

1064
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:42,800
Speaker 1: from Sydney to Barana on a Sunday evening. According to Jody,

1065
00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:46,080
Speaker 1: her father made the trip because he was upset at

1066
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 1: the idea of Bromwin neglecting the two girls. If that's true,

1067
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:53,160
Speaker 1: it begs the question of why he didn't go up

1068
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:56,480
Speaker 1: on Saturday. But the police view about the motive for

1069
00:58:56,600 --> 00:59:01,440
Speaker 1: John's trip was very different. The detective Glenn Taylor strongly

1070
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:05,000
Speaker 1: suspected that John went up on Sunday evening because he

1071
00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:08,600
Speaker 1: was furious that Bromwin had got past his deadlock and

1072
00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:12,680
Speaker 1: he was determined to regain possession of the house. His

1073
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:16,120
Speaker 1: trip was not primarily about the girls. It was about

1074
00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:21,440
Speaker 1: bricks and mortar John's castle. The idea of Bromwin being

1075
00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:24,440
Speaker 1: a neglectful mother flew in the face of reams of

1076
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:25,800
Speaker 1: evidence to the contrary.

1077
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:28,360
Speaker 7: I think he was shocked like I was when I

1078
00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 7: told him. He just generally, like me, he was worried

1079
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:32,800
Speaker 7: about them being on their own.

1080
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:36,560
Speaker 2: Now, ma'am, I'll ask you once more, given that your

1081
00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:39,360
Speaker 2: father would have been so alarmed about this, and given

1082
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:42,800
Speaker 2: that you can now understand the depth of that alarm,

1083
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 2: you still made no attempt or he made no attempt

1084
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:48,880
Speaker 2: to have anyone go in the house and look after

1085
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:49,440
Speaker 2: the children.

1086
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:52,640
Speaker 7: Well, just because you're alarmed doesn't mean that you think

1087
00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:55,120
Speaker 7: something is going to happen to them. You might just

1088
00:59:55,160 --> 00:59:57,040
Speaker 7: be concerned that you know they're on their own.

1089
00:59:57,120 --> 00:59:59,520
Speaker 2: But it arranged with you for you to drive him

1090
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:00,240
Speaker 2: to the airport.

1091
01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:01,240
Speaker 13: Yep.

1092
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:04,200
Speaker 7: We never talked about anything. He was just going home.

1093
01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:06,200
Speaker 7: The kids had been left on their own and he

1094
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:08,880
Speaker 7: was worried about it. He was just going home to

1095
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:10,920
Speaker 7: see the kids and to sort out what was happening

1096
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:11,360
Speaker 7: up there.

1097
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:14,880
Speaker 2: And what was your understanding of how long your father

1098
01:00:15,040 --> 01:00:16,560
Speaker 2: was to return to Lennox Head for.

1099
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:20,120
Speaker 7: We actually hadn't discussed it. I didn't think he was

1100
01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:23,520
Speaker 7: coming back well in the near future, and I never

1101
01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:25,920
Speaker 7: asked him because I didn't think he would be coming back.

1102
01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:30,760
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham asked Jodie whether she remembered her father taking

1103
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 1: one of his surfboards, but she said she could not recall.

1104
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:37,160
Speaker 7: It's so long ago. I don't even remember the drive

1105
01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:40,800
Speaker 7: or anything. I honestly can't remember what he had with him.

1106
01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:44,400
Speaker 1: She told the police officer that her shift at the

1107
01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:48,360
Speaker 1: Intercut's hair salon started about nine in the morning on Monday,

1108
01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:51,680
Speaker 1: the day after she had dropped her father at Sydney

1109
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:53,920
Speaker 1: Airport for his flight to Ballina.

1110
01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:56,920
Speaker 2: So it was about ten or morning tea time that

1111
01:00:56,960 --> 01:01:00,920
Speaker 2: your father arrived with the children. Yep, you say that

1112
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:03,400
Speaker 2: you asked Dad what was happening, and he told you

1113
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:06,240
Speaker 2: that Bronwin had had enough and she'd gone away for

1114
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:08,640
Speaker 2: a holiday for two weeks. Is that correct?

1115
01:01:09,240 --> 01:01:10,000
Speaker 13: Yeah.

1116
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:15,280
Speaker 2: It's a fairly extraordinary conversation to hear, isn't it. Yeah,

1117
01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:18,160
Speaker 2: So you're quite certain that your father told you that

1118
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:20,600
Speaker 2: Bronwin had gone for a holiday for two weeks.

1119
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:24,400
Speaker 7: Yes, but I didn't find it surprising considering how things

1120
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:27,040
Speaker 7: had been. I didn't find it surprising at all at

1121
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:30,040
Speaker 7: that time. That's basically all he said. That was all

1122
01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:32,080
Speaker 7: that was said, and the girls were there, so I

1123
01:01:32,080 --> 01:01:34,840
Speaker 7: didn't really go into it further with him. I hadn't

1124
01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:37,640
Speaker 7: seen them for oh months, and I was sort of

1125
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:39,920
Speaker 7: too busy cuddling and talking to them.

1126
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:44,240
Speaker 2: You say that he John said that she Bronwin went

1127
01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:47,000
Speaker 2: to the bedroom and made a telephone call, and she

1128
01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:48,680
Speaker 2: took a small amount of clothes.

1129
01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:54,200
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham paraphrased another sentence from JODI's nineteen ninety eight

1130
01:01:54,280 --> 01:01:57,120
Speaker 1: statement in which she said that her father told her

1131
01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:00,120
Speaker 1: he heard a car pull up and leave, and he

1132
01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:02,240
Speaker 1: was sitting on the lounge and he didn't get up

1133
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:05,120
Speaker 1: to see who had driven over to pick his wife up.

1134
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:07,840
Speaker 7: We'd sort of the girls got back into the car

1135
01:02:07,880 --> 01:02:09,840
Speaker 7: and we were I was on my way back into

1136
01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:12,480
Speaker 7: the salon sort of thing. I was sort of getting

1137
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:15,040
Speaker 7: prepared to say goodbye to them, and we sort of

1138
01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:16,880
Speaker 7: walked towards the back of the car, and when we

1139
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:19,720
Speaker 7: asked him, you know what happened? You know, like, how

1140
01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:22,880
Speaker 7: are you here, you know, with the kids? And that's

1141
01:02:22,920 --> 01:02:25,800
Speaker 7: when he told Around that same time, I think he

1142
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:27,600
Speaker 7: was getting something out of the boot of the car

1143
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:30,480
Speaker 7: for the girls. As he told me this, he then said, oh,

1144
01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:32,600
Speaker 7: I saw some sort of letter or journal that was

1145
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:34,560
Speaker 7: in the boot of the car that Bronwin had written.

1146
01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:38,080
Speaker 2: Did your father indicate who Bronwyn may have left the

1147
01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:38,640
Speaker 2: house with.

1148
01:02:39,320 --> 01:02:39,400
Speaker 5: No.

1149
01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:41,960
Speaker 7: I didn't ask at that time, because I just assumed

1150
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:44,120
Speaker 7: that it was a pretty likely thing she might have done.

1151
01:02:44,680 --> 01:02:46,760
Speaker 7: It's just she was having a break from the kids,

1152
01:02:46,840 --> 01:02:49,880
Speaker 7: and to me, that's pretty nine years. I didn't know

1153
01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:50,960
Speaker 7: that at the time, did I.

1154
01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:53,520
Speaker 2: When John turned up at the hair salon. He had

1155
01:02:53,520 --> 01:02:57,120
Speaker 2: the white falcon with him, Is that correct? Yep. You

1156
01:02:57,200 --> 01:03:00,000
Speaker 2: rushed and you saw the children and you saw your father.

1157
01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:02,400
Speaker 2: Did you look inside the white falcon at all?

1158
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:06,280
Speaker 7: I probably would have. I would have been putting Lauren

1159
01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:08,640
Speaker 7: back in the car or whatever. I don't remember seeing

1160
01:03:08,680 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 7: anything in there.

1161
01:03:10,240 --> 01:03:13,480
Speaker 2: You don't recall seeing any bags of clothes or suitcases

1162
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:14,720
Speaker 2: or anything in the car.

1163
01:03:15,560 --> 01:03:17,440
Speaker 7: No, I don't. I was just excited to see them,

1164
01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:19,320
Speaker 7: and I was under a lot of pressure actually to

1165
01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:21,360
Speaker 7: get back in the salon, as I had clients waiting

1166
01:03:21,400 --> 01:03:21,760
Speaker 7: in there.

1167
01:03:22,640 --> 01:03:24,919
Speaker 2: Now, given that your father used to surf every day,

1168
01:03:25,080 --> 01:03:27,240
Speaker 2: do you think it was strange that your father would

1169
01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:29,480
Speaker 2: return to Sydney without a surfboard?

1170
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:32,120
Speaker 7: Well, how's he going to surf when he had two

1171
01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:32,840
Speaker 7: kids with him?

1172
01:03:33,360 --> 01:03:35,080
Speaker 2: But you see, he's come to you so that you

1173
01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:38,560
Speaker 2: could assist him in looking after the children, didn't he No.

1174
01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:40,280
Speaker 7: I think he came to me actually to see if

1175
01:03:40,280 --> 01:03:42,360
Speaker 7: he could get the keys to my unit, or maybe not.

1176
01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:44,800
Speaker 7: I offered them to him in case he needed them.

1177
01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:47,240
Speaker 7: You know, he had two girls with him, he needed

1178
01:03:47,240 --> 01:03:50,240
Speaker 7: somewhere to go. I don't remember if I gave them

1179
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:52,160
Speaker 7: to him or if I didn't, but I think I

1180
01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:54,680
Speaker 7: would have, because it's something I would have done.

1181
01:03:55,280 --> 01:03:55,360
Speaker 1: So.

1182
01:03:55,440 --> 01:03:57,760
Speaker 2: The doors of the car were open as you were

1183
01:03:57,800 --> 01:04:02,040
Speaker 2: greeting the children, Is that correct, I'd say, so, you

1184
01:04:02,080 --> 01:04:03,760
Speaker 2: didn't see the family dog there?

1185
01:04:04,640 --> 01:04:07,560
Speaker 7: No, I don't remember. I don't think so. I don't remember.

1186
01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:11,080
Speaker 2: You'd agree with me that it's something that you would

1187
01:04:11,120 --> 01:04:12,960
Speaker 2: remember if the dog was there.

1188
01:04:13,480 --> 01:04:17,000
Speaker 7: Well, you would think so, But I don't so, because

1189
01:04:17,040 --> 01:04:17,560
Speaker 7: there must.

1190
01:04:17,480 --> 01:04:19,720
Speaker 2: Be no doubt in your mind that if the dog

1191
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 2: was there that you would have cuddled the dog as well,

1192
01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:23,200
Speaker 2: wouldn't you.

1193
01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:25,960
Speaker 7: Well, the girls might have had the dog with them

1194
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:29,439
Speaker 7: on their lap. I don't. I really don't remember it.

1195
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:32,240
Speaker 7: I was in an awkward situation. I wanted to see

1196
01:04:32,280 --> 01:04:34,080
Speaker 7: the kids and I had to get back into work.

1197
01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:37,760
Speaker 2: Did your father indicate where Bronwin may have gone for

1198
01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:39,720
Speaker 2: a holiday too, No?

1199
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:41,200
Speaker 7: I never asked him at that time.

1200
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:45,240
Speaker 1: Jodi said that she recalled her father.

1201
01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:48,840
Speaker 7: Saying something about the boxes. There were so many boxes,

1202
01:04:48,880 --> 01:04:51,400
Speaker 7: and that might have been in the way of later on,

1203
01:04:51,800 --> 01:04:53,800
Speaker 7: when I had the girls with me and their outfits

1204
01:04:53,840 --> 01:04:56,160
Speaker 7: and stuff. He obviously didn't have much with them, and

1205
01:04:56,200 --> 01:04:58,280
Speaker 7: it was something to do with you know, everything was

1206
01:04:58,320 --> 01:04:58,960
Speaker 7: in boxes.

1207
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:02,160
Speaker 2: Now, what was the reason given to you as to

1208
01:05:02,240 --> 01:05:05,200
Speaker 2: why your father had driven overnight with the children.

1209
01:05:06,080 --> 01:05:08,920
Speaker 7: Well, I didn't actually ask him. I just it's common

1210
01:05:08,920 --> 01:05:11,280
Speaker 7: sense that the kids would travel better at night, because

1211
01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:13,440
Speaker 7: my kids do. But I just thought he wanted to

1212
01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:16,000
Speaker 7: get back to his job. I've traveled with my dad

1213
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:17,960
Speaker 7: at night as a child growing up in Lenox, and

1214
01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:20,880
Speaker 7: for holidays, we always drove at night because I was

1215
01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:21,640
Speaker 7: always asleep.

1216
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:24,480
Speaker 2: Did your father ever take you up to Lenox without

1217
01:05:24,520 --> 01:05:25,360
Speaker 2: any other clothing?

1218
01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:28,240
Speaker 7: I don't remember, but I wouldn't think so.

1219
01:05:29,280 --> 01:05:32,000
Speaker 2: And as a parent today, can you indicate that it's

1220
01:05:32,040 --> 01:05:35,400
Speaker 2: a fairly extraordinary thing for a parent to put the

1221
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:38,160
Speaker 2: kids in the car and take them to the other

1222
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:41,840
Speaker 2: end of the state without any clothing appropriate for that climate.

1223
01:05:42,200 --> 01:05:42,440
Speaker 1: Is it?

1224
01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:45,960
Speaker 7: Yes? But I'm under the impression that he did have

1225
01:05:46,040 --> 01:05:49,000
Speaker 7: clothing for them. Yes, I've heard it's not much, but

1226
01:05:49,080 --> 01:05:51,160
Speaker 7: I'm under the impression that he had clothing.

1227
01:05:52,240 --> 01:05:54,520
Speaker 2: You said that your father had returned to Sydney for

1228
01:05:54,560 --> 01:05:56,720
Speaker 2: the purpose of work. Is that correct?

1229
01:05:57,280 --> 01:05:59,760
Speaker 7: I assume that only because he was working on a job,

1230
01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:03,040
Speaker 7: quite a big job somewhere at Sutherland somewhere, and he

1231
01:06:03,080 --> 01:06:05,000
Speaker 7: wanted to bring the girls to see me, because, like

1232
01:06:05,040 --> 01:06:07,640
Speaker 7: I say, Bronwin had gone away and he wanted them

1233
01:06:07,840 --> 01:06:11,360
Speaker 7: us to be together. I had them after work. I

1234
01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:13,480
Speaker 7: saw them as much as I could over that two weeks.

1235
01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:17,760
Speaker 1: Jodi said that John had not told her his intention

1236
01:06:17,960 --> 01:06:21,840
Speaker 1: to take the girls to John's first wife, Jennifer Mason's house.

1237
01:06:22,640 --> 01:06:24,640
Speaker 7: I think he said he had to do something, but

1238
01:06:24,720 --> 01:06:27,560
Speaker 7: we couldn't really go into it any further. I just

1239
01:06:27,600 --> 01:06:29,400
Speaker 7: had to get back into the salon, so I didn't

1240
01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:30,440
Speaker 7: really pay much attention.

1241
01:06:31,600 --> 01:06:34,640
Speaker 2: Given that you're aware that Bronwin was intending to keep

1242
01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:37,440
Speaker 2: the home, and given that you're aware that your father

1243
01:06:37,520 --> 01:06:40,320
Speaker 2: had traveled up to Lennox Head to reclaim the home,

1244
01:06:40,640 --> 01:06:43,080
Speaker 2: did it strike you as being strange that your father

1245
01:06:43,080 --> 01:06:45,040
Speaker 2: would leave the house with the children.

1246
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:46,000
Speaker 7: No?

1247
01:06:46,760 --> 01:06:47,280
Speaker 2: Why is that?

1248
01:06:48,120 --> 01:06:48,240
Speaker 15: No?

1249
01:06:48,360 --> 01:06:50,280
Speaker 7: Because I didn't think it would be strange for him

1250
01:06:50,320 --> 01:06:52,360
Speaker 7: to bring the kids to see me, because the month's

1251
01:06:52,400 --> 01:06:54,800
Speaker 7: coming up to it. I hadn't seen Crystal and Lauren.

1252
01:06:55,360 --> 01:06:57,520
Speaker 2: But I'm not asking you that. I'm asking you, ma'am,

1253
01:06:57,760 --> 01:07:00,640
Speaker 2: whether you think it's unusual that you're father would leave

1254
01:07:00,680 --> 01:07:01,160
Speaker 2: the house.

1255
01:07:02,120 --> 01:07:04,120
Speaker 7: No, because he was in Sydney before.

1256
01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:07,760
Speaker 2: That, ma'am. After the meeting out in the street in

1257
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:10,480
Speaker 2: the mid morning. Are you aware of where your father

1258
01:07:10,560 --> 01:07:10,920
Speaker 2: went to.

1259
01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:14,840
Speaker 7: No, I wasn't. I knew he had something to do,

1260
01:07:14,920 --> 01:07:16,000
Speaker 7: but I didn't know what it was.

1261
01:07:17,200 --> 01:07:19,919
Speaker 1: Jodi said that she did not believe her father had

1262
01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:22,520
Speaker 1: told her he was going to her mother's house.

1263
01:07:23,400 --> 01:07:26,160
Speaker 2: You see, your father had had very little contact with

1264
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:29,200
Speaker 2: your mother in the years before nineteen ninety three, hadn't he.

1265
01:07:30,160 --> 01:07:31,840
Speaker 7: Well, I wouldn't say he had a great deal of

1266
01:07:31,880 --> 01:07:34,920
Speaker 7: contact with her, but yes, they still, through me, occasionally

1267
01:07:34,920 --> 01:07:35,800
Speaker 7: spoke to each other.

1268
01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:39,400
Speaker 2: Did you suggest your father that perhaps he might take

1269
01:07:39,440 --> 01:07:41,240
Speaker 2: the children to Michelle Reid's house.

1270
01:07:42,240 --> 01:07:44,280
Speaker 7: No, I didn't suggest it, or I may have, but

1271
01:07:44,360 --> 01:07:45,280
Speaker 7: I don't remember it.

1272
01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:48,400
Speaker 2: Does it strike you as strange that your father would

1273
01:07:48,440 --> 01:07:50,560
Speaker 2: take the children to your mother's house instead?

1274
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:52,920
Speaker 7: No, because my mother actually lives within walking distance of

1275
01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:55,160
Speaker 7: the salon, so he might have just gone there on

1276
01:07:55,200 --> 01:07:57,720
Speaker 7: the way. It wasn't that far from where I worked.

1277
01:07:58,560 --> 01:08:01,160
Speaker 2: Your father's just driven over night about eight hundred and

1278
01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:02,560
Speaker 2: fifty kilometers, hasn't he.

1279
01:08:03,200 --> 01:08:03,480
Speaker 7: Yep?

1280
01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:06,960
Speaker 2: And it's not that far between the Salon, Cranala and

1281
01:08:07,080 --> 01:08:08,040
Speaker 2: Reed's house, is it?

1282
01:08:08,400 --> 01:08:10,320
Speaker 7: Oh? I know that, but I'm just saying that it

1283
01:08:10,400 --> 01:08:12,200
Speaker 7: might have been the reason why he went there.

1284
01:08:13,360 --> 01:08:15,840
Speaker 2: You'd agree with me that he had several people he

1285
01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:19,360
Speaker 2: could have turned to before he turned to miss Mason. Yeah.

1286
01:08:20,160 --> 01:08:22,840
Speaker 2: Do you know where your father was for the remainder.

1287
01:08:22,400 --> 01:08:24,200
Speaker 7: Of the day, No, I don't.

1288
01:08:24,880 --> 01:08:28,200
Speaker 2: Did your father indicate anything to you, apart from registering

1289
01:08:28,240 --> 01:08:31,679
Speaker 2: the car anything that may have taken four or five hours.

1290
01:08:32,840 --> 01:08:34,759
Speaker 7: No, I didn't ask him, and I didn't know until

1291
01:08:34,840 --> 01:08:36,640
Speaker 7: this that it was that long before he went to

1292
01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:37,720
Speaker 7: Michelle and Andrews.

1293
01:08:38,000 --> 01:08:38,599
Speaker 2: I'm sorry.

1294
01:08:39,160 --> 01:08:41,080
Speaker 7: I didn't know how long it was before he went

1295
01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:43,519
Speaker 7: to Michelle and Andrews, so I wouldn't have asked where

1296
01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:44,719
Speaker 7: he was for that time.

1297
01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:49,479
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham pressed Jody on what John might have done

1298
01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:52,639
Speaker 1: to account for what he did from mid morning until

1299
01:08:52,680 --> 01:08:56,719
Speaker 1: his return to Jennifer Mason's house mid afternoon on Monday

1300
01:08:57,120 --> 01:09:00,000
Speaker 1: to collect the girls and then drive over to Michelle

1301
01:09:00,160 --> 01:09:01,559
Speaker 1: and Andy Reid's house.

1302
01:09:02,360 --> 01:09:04,519
Speaker 7: He could have gone shopping the park. He could have

1303
01:09:04,560 --> 01:09:06,799
Speaker 7: gone back to my unit if I'd given him the keys.

1304
01:09:06,920 --> 01:09:08,320
Speaker 7: I don't remember.

1305
01:09:09,280 --> 01:09:12,760
Speaker 1: The police officer asked her whether John had talked to

1306
01:09:12,840 --> 01:09:15,439
Speaker 1: her about having bought petrol in Ballina.

1307
01:09:16,240 --> 01:09:19,440
Speaker 7: I was only eighteen. That's the last sort of questions

1308
01:09:19,520 --> 01:09:21,880
Speaker 7: or thoughts that are going through an eighteen year old's head.

1309
01:09:22,360 --> 01:09:25,200
Speaker 2: I understand that it's just you see, your father has

1310
01:09:25,240 --> 01:09:28,719
Speaker 2: produced this receipt to the Reeds, and I honestly don't

1311
01:09:28,720 --> 01:09:29,559
Speaker 2: know why he's done that.

1312
01:09:30,320 --> 01:09:32,680
Speaker 7: My dad keeps his receipts for everything, so I mean,

1313
01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:35,639
Speaker 7: that's not an unlikely thing for him to have the receipt.

1314
01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:39,200
Speaker 2: You remember whether there was anybody going out buying more

1315
01:09:39,240 --> 01:09:40,400
Speaker 2: clothes for the children.

1316
01:09:41,320 --> 01:09:43,479
Speaker 7: No, I don't remember that.

1317
01:09:43,720 --> 01:09:47,080
Speaker 1: Fordham questioned Jodie about whether her father had asked her

1318
01:09:47,200 --> 01:09:50,080
Speaker 1: about caring for the children and how he would go

1319
01:09:50,160 --> 01:09:50,920
Speaker 1: about doing that.

1320
01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:55,040
Speaker 7: No, she replied, adding I know he had help from

1321
01:09:55,080 --> 01:09:58,200
Speaker 7: my grandparents, but he raised me. I don't think anybody

1322
01:09:58,280 --> 01:09:59,880
Speaker 7: needs to ring up and ask somebody how to b

1323
01:10:00,160 --> 01:10:02,479
Speaker 7: the child, and I don't believe he would have done that.

1324
01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:07,400
Speaker 1: After the adjournment for lunch, the police officer revisited the

1325
01:10:07,439 --> 01:10:12,920
Speaker 1: same subject, John's knowledge of parenting in Bromwin's absence. Jodi

1326
01:10:13,040 --> 01:10:16,000
Speaker 1: said she was surprised by the evidence of Michelle Reid,

1327
01:10:16,120 --> 01:10:19,440
Speaker 1: who had previously told the inquest that John would telephone

1328
01:10:19,520 --> 01:10:23,960
Speaker 1: her for advice. Matt Fordham's strategy showed itself with his

1329
01:10:24,160 --> 01:10:26,080
Speaker 1: next line of questioning.

1330
01:10:26,439 --> 01:10:29,479
Speaker 2: Ma'am, if the evidence of other witnesses was that your

1331
01:10:29,520 --> 01:10:32,800
Speaker 2: father arrived in Sydney with the children without any substantial

1332
01:10:32,880 --> 01:10:36,280
Speaker 2: clothing for them, given your assessment of your father as

1333
01:10:36,320 --> 01:10:39,559
Speaker 2: being fairly capable as far as caring for the children goes,

1334
01:10:40,000 --> 01:10:41,080
Speaker 2: does that surprise you?

1335
01:10:42,160 --> 01:10:45,880
Speaker 1: He was demonstrating the remarkable haste with which John left

1336
01:10:46,479 --> 01:10:49,559
Speaker 1: the urgency, which saw him drive away from the house

1337
01:10:49,960 --> 01:10:54,559
Speaker 1: without even proper clothing for his daughters. What had triggered this?

1338
01:10:55,360 --> 01:10:55,600
Speaker 2: Do it?

1339
01:10:55,720 --> 01:10:56,080
Speaker 7: Agree?

1340
01:10:56,200 --> 01:10:56,439
Speaker 9: Yes?

1341
01:10:56,560 --> 01:10:58,479
Speaker 7: But there was a lot of boxes in the house,

1342
01:10:58,520 --> 01:11:00,280
Speaker 7: and I can understand that things were They are all

1343
01:11:00,320 --> 01:11:00,919
Speaker 7: in boxes.

1344
01:11:01,000 --> 01:11:03,640
Speaker 2: So you'd agree with me that somebody who's got a

1345
01:11:03,680 --> 01:11:07,080
Speaker 2: lot of knowledge about parenting, or someone who's got experience

1346
01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:10,240
Speaker 2: in looking after small children as you do now, it's

1347
01:11:10,280 --> 01:11:12,479
Speaker 2: one of the things that you would remember to take

1348
01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:15,639
Speaker 2: with you. You take clothes for the children down to Sydney,

1349
01:11:15,680 --> 01:11:16,160
Speaker 2: wouldn't you?

1350
01:11:16,800 --> 01:11:19,759
Speaker 7: Yes, But I'm under the impression he did take clothes

1351
01:11:19,800 --> 01:11:20,360
Speaker 7: to Sydney.

1352
01:11:21,400 --> 01:11:25,320
Speaker 1: Matt Fordham asked Jody whether she remembered her father taking

1353
01:11:25,479 --> 01:11:29,040
Speaker 1: one of his surfboards, but she said she could not recall.

1354
01:11:30,040 --> 01:11:34,320
Speaker 1: Jody held the line clearly she was backing her dad

1355
01:11:34,520 --> 01:11:38,640
Speaker 1: one hundred percent. But Matt Fordham was far from finished

1356
01:11:38,720 --> 01:11:42,320
Speaker 1: with the witness. He would ask her many more questions,

1357
01:11:42,920 --> 01:11:46,679
Speaker 1: and then those in the courtroom were surprised to see

1358
01:11:46,920 --> 01:12:04,720
Speaker 1: a new witness sworn in. It was John Winfield. Bronwyn

1359
01:12:04,880 --> 01:12:08,400
Speaker 1: is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as a

1360
01:12:08,439 --> 01:12:13,599
Speaker 1: podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has information which

1361
01:12:13,720 --> 01:12:18,080
Speaker 1: may help solve this cold case, please contact me confidentially

1362
01:12:18,479 --> 01:12:23,599
Speaker 1: by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.

1363
01:12:24,360 --> 01:12:27,240
Speaker 1: You can read more about this case and see a

1364
01:12:27,360 --> 01:12:31,840
Speaker 1: range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bronwyn

1365
01:12:31,880 --> 01:12:38,120
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.

1366
01:12:38,640 --> 01:12:43,200
Speaker 1: The production and editorial team for Bromwin includes Claire Harvey,

1367
01:12:43,320 --> 01:12:49,240
Speaker 1: Kristin Amiot, Joshua Burton, Bridget, Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns,

1368
01:12:49,560 --> 01:12:53,960
Speaker 1: Liam Mendez, Sean Callen and Matthew Condon and David Murray,

1369
01:12:54,200 --> 01:12:58,440
Speaker 1: with assistance from Isaac Iron's. Audio production for this podcast

1370
01:12:58,479 --> 01:13:02,840
Speaker 1: series is by Wassa Audio and original theme music by

1371
01:13:02,920 --> 01:13:06,960
Speaker 1: Slade Gibson. We have been assisted by Madison Walsh, a

1372
01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:10,960
Speaker 1: relation of Bromin Winfield. We can only do this kind

1373
01:13:11,000 --> 01:13:14,280
Speaker 1: of journalism with the support of our subscribers and our

1374
01:13:14,360 --> 01:13:20,320
Speaker 1: major sponsors like Harvey Norman. For all of our exclusive stories, videos, maps,

1375
01:13:20,439 --> 01:13:25,280
Speaker 1: timelines and documents about this podcast and other podcasts including

1376
01:13:25,280 --> 01:13:29,719
Speaker 1: The Teacher's Pet, The Teachers Trial, The Teacher's Accuser, Shandy's Story,

1377
01:13:30,040 --> 01:13:34,040
Speaker 1: Shandy's Legacy, and The Night Driver. Go to the Australian

1378
01:13:34,160 --> 01:13:38,479
Speaker 1: dot com dot au and subscribe.