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Speaker 1: Gooday, thanks for listening. Quick question for you, how's work?

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Speaker 2: It's a question we ask each other all the time,

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Speaker 2: and usually we either give or receive a fairly flippant answer.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, you're right, you know, yeah, yeah, it

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Speaker 1: works work. But have you ever properly asked yourself that question?

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Speaker 2: How is your work? How is your work fitting into

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Speaker 2: your life or is the rest of your life.

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Speaker 1: Just fitting around it?

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Speaker 2: How does your work what you do reflect who you

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Speaker 2: are and who you want to be? What are you

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Speaker 2: going to do about it? Have you ever asked yourself

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Speaker 2: those questions? If you never pondered them, don't worry.

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Speaker 1: We're all about to go through this.

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Speaker 2: We're going to get held by the hand by Tim Duggan,

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Speaker 2: and we're going to walk this past together. Before we do,

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Speaker 2: let's play some ads.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the show.

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Speaker 2: This is better than Yes today, making a better every

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Speaker 2: episode since twenty thirteen, every single week, mind you.

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Speaker 1: My name's Osha Ginsburg. Thanks for listening.

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Speaker 2: I'm a TV guy, I'm a podcaster, I'm a best

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Speaker 2: selling author. I'm a dad, I'm a stepdad, I'm a

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Speaker 2: what am I having? Documentary filmmaker? And I'm making this show,

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Speaker 2: and I'm a producer of live storytelling events story Club

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Speaker 2: where we do it every month.

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Speaker 1: At the Factory Theater in Marrickville.

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Speaker 2: And this Sunday night, six thirty are our theme is

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Speaker 2: the Lesser of Two Evils. I'm trying to think about

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Speaker 2: a theme for the election, so the Lesser of Two

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Speaker 2: Evils is our theme. Josh Zepps is joining us, as

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Speaker 2: is Richard Glover, some pretty heavy hit in ABC types there.

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Speaker 2: Deb Oswald is also joining us, as Nikia Luis only

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Speaker 2: not in lodge and myself. Live storytelling live on stage.

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Speaker 2: Tickets are not that expensive. You can get your tickets

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Speaker 2: in the show notes, and you know what, I will

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Speaker 2: give two tickets away. Send me an email. If you

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Speaker 2: can make it, don't see an email, ask me for

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Speaker 2: tickets if you can't make it. If you can make it,

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Speaker 2: this Sunday, six thirty, March ninth, Factory Theater, Marrickville. The

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Speaker 2: show starts at six thirty doors of six, send me

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Speaker 2: an email. Send osher email at gmail dot com. Send

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Speaker 2: me a picture of what you're looking at right now,

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Speaker 2: and I'll pick somebody out of that, all right, If

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Speaker 2: you send me a photo that makes me go, you

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Speaker 2: know what. That's fucking good. That's the competition. And I'll

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Speaker 2: just send me two names and I'll put them on

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Speaker 2: the door.

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Speaker 1: Right, So that's that work. We should talk about work.

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Speaker 2: If you've ever had some nagging concerns about the job

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Speaker 2: you've got right now, I am very excited that you've

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Speaker 2: chosen to listen to this episode today because it could

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Speaker 2: be just what you need today. My guest is Tim Dugan,

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Speaker 2: who is a titan of non traditional Australian media, the

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Speaker 2: founder of several media adventures, huge media adventures that you've

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Speaker 2: probably well and truly heard of, including Junkie and Punky.

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Speaker 2: You can thank him and the people he who worked

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Speaker 2: for him for Surf Dog Bachelor. Tim is also the

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Speaker 2: best telling and critically acclaimed author of a number of books,

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Speaker 2: including Cult Status, How to Build a Business that People

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Speaker 2: Adore and Killer Thinking, How to turn good Ideas into

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Speaker 2: brilliant ones, and most recently Tim's latest book, I Love

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Speaker 2: his Writing, I Love the way he writes. Tim's most

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Speaker 2: reason book is called Work Backwards as a revolutionary method

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Speaker 2: to work smarter and live better. And that is what

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Speaker 2: we talk about today. We're going to dive into the

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Speaker 2: question of whether the way we approach our work right

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Speaker 2: now really leads us to the life that we want,

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Speaker 2: and if it doesn't, the step we might take to

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Speaker 2: make a change and do things a little differently. You

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Speaker 2: might notice the what it is a little different than

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Speaker 2: normal in some places. We did have a bit of

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Speaker 2: a technical malfunction in this chat, but some way you

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Speaker 2: will be able to hear everything Tim said, which is

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Speaker 2: great to leave because he said some really good stuff.

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Speaker 1: Enjoy the chat.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm really excited to speak to you because of

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Speaker 2: the things that you've created in our country and you

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Speaker 2: went from nothing, this did not exist to now this

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Speaker 2: entire media company exists.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and then I'm not going to do it anymore.

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Speaker 1: But it was really successful that I'm gone.

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Speaker 2: Your name may not be familiar to people, but people

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Speaker 2: most definitely have seen the product of your Yeah, it

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Speaker 2: was just nice to think. Yeah, if you don't mind

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Speaker 2: just kind of setting the scene a little bit, what

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Speaker 2: was going on that you went, eh, Jackie, that's broadly, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: There was a bunch of things going on. In particular,

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Speaker 3: I noticed I was kind of one of the I

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Speaker 3: called myself the world's oldest living millennial because I was

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Speaker 3: born the start of Laneta in Haiti, which is when

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Speaker 3: millennials officially kind of started. And I noticed that me

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Speaker 3: and my friends were just kind of starting to view

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Speaker 3: the world in a slightly different way to the gests

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Speaker 3: around the early twenty tens, and there wasn't a media

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Speaker 3: that was speaking to us. And I'm kind of on

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Speaker 3: these p people that just get shited done. If I

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Speaker 3: realized that something that I want to exist in the

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Speaker 3: world is not there.

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Speaker 1: No one else is going to start it, I may

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Speaker 1: as well do it.

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Speaker 3: And Junkie it was this, the media that I want

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Speaker 3: speaking to me doesn't exist, So why don't I start it?

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Speaker 2: What would you say about because I had to be

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Speaker 2: told to give myself permission to that stuff.

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Speaker 1: I always believe on it's for other people, right, What

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Speaker 1: would you say about that concept?

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Speaker 3: The idea of just just because you don't know how

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Speaker 3: to do any or it doesn't mean that you can't.

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Speaker 1: Someone's going to do it, may as well be you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a quote from Steve Jobs, and I know

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Speaker 3: it's a bit enough to kind to quote Steve Jobs sometimes.

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Speaker 3: There the quote from Steve Jobs that says something about

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Speaker 3: this realization that he had when he realized that all

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Speaker 3: the things that he loved were made by other near mortals.

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Speaker 3: And so we look and we think we see this iPhone,

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Speaker 3: We're like, that's amazing, and it's.

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Speaker 1: Made by a mere mortal.

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Speaker 3: Everything that we're doing, this microphone, this book, this table,

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Speaker 3: this business that we're in, this light, everything is just

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Speaker 3: made by someone decided to just give it a go.

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Speaker 3: I think also combined with just the nativity of use. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: like I just you just don't know jack ship when

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Speaker 3: you're young, and it really helps. Yeah, and you can

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Speaker 3: work eighteen hours in a day and be fine with

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Speaker 3: it totally and then go out that night and then

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Speaker 3: get up the next morning until we do it again.

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Speaker 3: You kind of can, and you should. And it's like

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Speaker 3: that when you're young, using that energy that you don't realize,

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Speaker 3: and you get into your forties and fifties starts to go.

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Speaker 2: Tell me about though, the idea of taking an idea,

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Speaker 2: something that doesn't exist yet and wanting to bring it

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Speaker 2: into fruition. It may seem like an insurmountable task. Have

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Speaker 2: there been things that you've tried that you got a

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Speaker 2: little down the road and went, I'm burning too much

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Speaker 2: a money bee time, see both, I'm just going to

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Speaker 2: stop always does something else.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and it's not that easy, like when you're

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Speaker 3: in it and you think it's a great idea and

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Speaker 3: you're trying to find that momentum. I mean the things

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Speaker 3: that I launched that have been successful, like Junkie and Punky. Punky,

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Speaker 3: of course, you were one of the original deities of

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Speaker 3: Punky because we did so much reality TV content.

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Speaker 1: It was great.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a really lovely symbiotic relationship. Well just

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Speaker 2: just just kind of on that. I always I loved

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Speaker 2: that they got it. I loved that they could see

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Speaker 2: the wink yeah, that I had doing that job. It's preposterous,

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Speaker 2: that role. And I loved that. I loved that other

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Speaker 2: people took it very very seriously, would do that, and

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Speaker 2: then Punky would just create something completely in alignment with

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Speaker 2: where it is.

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Speaker 1: Always like I get it, you see it.

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Speaker 3: We were in on the joke, yes exactly, and and

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Speaker 3: there was you know, it's reality TV.

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Speaker 1: It's meant to be fun.

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Speaker 3: You know this more than anyone else, and you know

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Speaker 3: the wink and the storyline and sometimes the ridiculousness of it.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the Punky recaps of particularly The Bachelor and

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Speaker 3: the Bachelorette were just like some of the best content

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Speaker 3: that I felt honored and proud my team was able

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Speaker 3: to create. I mean, for me, it taught me around

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Speaker 3: like the power. I mean, I've always been obsessed by

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Speaker 3: how you build communities. It's really interesting and Punky for

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Speaker 3: me was a textbook example of how you build a

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Speaker 3: strong community around a product because it had its own

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Speaker 3: language and complete language around it. And when you were

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Speaker 3: part of that and you got your colleagues and you

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Speaker 3: sat around and you would you know, on a Wednesday

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Speaker 3: morning or Thursday morning, you'd get there and we made

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Speaker 3: sure that the recap was up by eight o'clock in

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Speaker 3: the morning or whatever time.

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Speaker 1: To go on. They work hard. They worked so funny,

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Speaker 1: the team worked extremely hard.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they were they were following proper all proper

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Speaker 2: all liars, Yeah, proper, properly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: We made sure we gave them a lot of time

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Speaker 3: off they god to make up for that, and we

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Speaker 3: tried to resource thems the best we could.

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Speaker 1: But it was they did amazing.

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Speaker 3: Work that Sometimes also, there's just there's a moment and

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Speaker 3: there's a time and a place. And I think one

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Speaker 3: thing that I have learned I launched my very first website,

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Speaker 3: same same which was National Gamer as my website when

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Speaker 3: I was twenty three or twenty four in two thousand

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Speaker 3: and six, very early days of the Internet, and then

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Speaker 3: Junkie in twenty thirteen and Punky in twenty fourteen or fifteen,

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Speaker 3: and blah blah blah. But there is a time and

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Speaker 3: a moment for media for things like that, and that's

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Speaker 3: something that I've had to learn as I continue to

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Speaker 3: go and do different things in my career, is sometimes

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Speaker 3: letting go, sometimes killing your babies is kind of which

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Speaker 3: is really hard to do, and being appreciative of that

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Speaker 3: moment and that time and all those special pieces of

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Speaker 3: magic came together and then move on.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to drop a name here.

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Speaker 2: I once interviewed Jerry Seinfeld, and in the question, I said,

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Speaker 2: Faulty Towers is probably the exception of maybe one episode.

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Speaker 1: Which is just unwatchable in any cultural environment.

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Speaker 2: Now possibly the greatest sitcom E've ridden, and every person

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Speaker 2: in that and every team and that benefited out of that.

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Speaker 1: He made one hundred and seventy eight episodes of Seinfeld like.

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Speaker 2: What's the difference? Why make the American ones and just

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Speaker 2: keep making them? Making and making them rather than know

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Speaker 2: that's it, We're done. The bridge will just do that

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Speaker 2: and he goes. The sandwich shop's making money. You don't

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Speaker 2: close the sandwich shops.

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Speaker 1: Say okay, Jerry.

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Speaker 2: So at what point I asked this because you know,

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Speaker 2: Junkie Punky, these things are becoming the envy of legacy media.

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Speaker 2: They're during eyeballs, they're during ad revenue. You can definitely

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Speaker 2: are someone who sees where things are going.

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Speaker 1: You could have just gone, I know where if I'm

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Speaker 1: going to create this and this and that and that

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Speaker 1: and here comes all my channels and let's go.

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Speaker 2: You stepped away what goes on in your heart and

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Speaker 2: the thing that made you want to do it?

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Speaker 1: Why step away from something that is working so well

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Speaker 1: and still works so well?

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Speaker 3: Man, What a great question, because knowing when to leave,

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Speaker 3: I think is probably one of the biggest skills.

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Speaker 1: That you can have. So Kenny Rogers was right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've got to know when to and to hold them.

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Speaker 1: I've got to know when to fold them. Yeah, it's hard.

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Speaker 3: It's a combination of your gut, it's a combination of

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Speaker 3: external things. This combination of I think being in tune

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Speaker 3: with yourself and knowing is this fulfilling me in the

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Speaker 3: same way and making the same intern benefits even though

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Speaker 3: all the external things are there. And something that I've

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Speaker 3: really grappled with the last couple of years is this

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Speaker 3: concept of enough, so knowing what enough is for me.

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Speaker 3: And I've been fortunate, I've sold several businesses, so kind

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Speaker 3: of financial enough is a question that I've kind of

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Speaker 3: thought about and answer for myself. But then even just

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Speaker 3: around what enough external validation is, what enough success is,

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Speaker 3: what enough pressure is, what enough staff members are.

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Speaker 1: All those things I've.

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Speaker 3: Kind of grappled with, and I've kind of come to

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Speaker 3: my own definition of what enough is for me, and

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Speaker 3: there's actually a lot less than I would have thought

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Speaker 3: it was. Yeah, So perfect example of that is I've

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Speaker 3: just come back from spending a month in the Alps

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Speaker 3: doing one of my favorite things, which is going into

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Speaker 3: a camper van my husband and driving around. We did

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Speaker 3: the same thing in twenty twenty after I'd finished up

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Speaker 3: at Junkie after fifteen years of Rainer, and we jumped

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Speaker 3: into a camper van spent originally six weeks turned out

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Speaker 3: to be six months in a camper van. And the

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Speaker 3: reason why I love the camera and I'm not a

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Speaker 3: camping person like you know, sure, onto a couple of

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Speaker 3: nights here and there, but I love the simplicity of

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Speaker 3: just having whatever you need on your back. Like I

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Speaker 3: feel like a snail and I've got this two plates,

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Speaker 3: there's two forks and knives, there's one pan that be cooking.

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Speaker 3: There's just the bare minimum of life. And it reminds

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Speaker 3: me just like how much all of this kind of

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Speaker 3: bullshit and accumulation and consumerism everything is because you have

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Speaker 3: what you need.

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Speaker 1: Obviously, you led many teams of you know.

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Speaker 2: Multiplely, you know, vary people from very different backgrounds, and

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Speaker 2: people bring their old selves to work. They're very very talented,

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Speaker 2: and they have different ways of approaching friction within a team.

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Speaker 2: What was it that you learned about leading those teams

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Speaker 2: that help you not get divorced?

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Speaker 3: In the camera van for such totally and just the

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Speaker 3: two of us. This is during COVID as well, so

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Speaker 3: there's no escape. Yeah, there was no escape. We couldn't

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Speaker 3: even kind of like fly back and see people and stuff.

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Speaker 3: I feel there was six months in a camper van.

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Speaker 3: We'd also just got married four months earlier, but it

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Speaker 3: actually one It made be four more in love with

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Speaker 3: my husband is just we'ving together for ten years now,

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Speaker 3: and I think we do these things kind of like,

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Speaker 3: you know, test ourselves by blocking ourselves in the Campa

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Speaker 3: van for six months and travel around. I mean for me,

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Speaker 3: I mean the whole, my whole secret to my relationship

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Speaker 3: is compromise. For me, that'ss on both sides, because compromise

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Speaker 3: is a conversation where you have to talk and take

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Speaker 3: into account someone else's needs, desires, emotions, finances, headspace, all

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Speaker 3: of that. And so just having that constant conversation and

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Speaker 3: compromising on both sides. I mean compromise Often who is

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Speaker 3: seen as a negative word, like you're giving something up,

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Speaker 3: But for me, it's actually about how the two of

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Speaker 3: you can negotiate to get to a joint goal together.

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Speaker 3: And when I you know, to bring it back to

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Speaker 3: your original question, when I was running Junkie at its peak,

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Speaker 3: we had about sixty or seventy full time staff, and

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Speaker 3: the aim with that when you get to that size

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Speaker 3: people is making sure that everyone knows the vision of

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Speaker 3: where you're going, making sure that's a joint vision, and

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Speaker 3: then dealing with all the bullshit that comes in trying

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Speaker 3: to get there and I think it's the same with

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Speaker 3: the relationship when you're in the camper van. Only is

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Speaker 3: the a vision of where you want to get to

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Speaker 3: in terms of we want to drive to there, there's

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Speaker 3: the vision of why are we doing this? What's the

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Speaker 3: aim of this? And as long as you're aligned on that,

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Speaker 3: all the other.

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Speaker 1: Stuff just works itself out.

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Speaker 2: Wow, do you have the same approach when you're negotiaed

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Speaker 2: an exit of.

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Speaker 1: All of your companies? You know, if.

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Speaker 2: Someone comes along with deep pockets and they're trying to,

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Speaker 2: you know, say well how much is it worth and

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Speaker 2: we'll give you this.

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Speaker 1: Much, you actually know, like, where's the compromise there?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but it is. And so when we sold Junkie,

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Speaker 3: we had another bidder who bid more money, and their

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Speaker 3: vision of what they wanted to do wasn't aligned with

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Speaker 3: the mine and our business finders right, and so we

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Speaker 3: did and that was that was certainly a big debate

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Speaker 3: and discussion because some people just want to take the money, yeah,

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Speaker 3: you know, and others didn't want to and values came

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Speaker 3: in to it, so there was big discussions around that.

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Speaker 3: That was a really big moment, not just about money,

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Speaker 3: it's kind of about what the vision is for.

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Speaker 1: It when you're putting this this book together.

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Speaker 2: I've been thinking a lot about it, because look, I'm

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Speaker 2: at that point all right, trying to think about what

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Speaker 2: the fuck do I do now. I don't want to

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Speaker 2: make this into a free consult session, but I'll know

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Speaker 2: I'll take whatever you're willing to give because it might

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Speaker 2: help people understand that, you know, the theasis of the book.

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Speaker 2: If I was to use the work backwards hypothesis in

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Speaker 2: my current situation, where do I even start. I've got

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Speaker 2: this podcast, I've got corporates beating stuff, books and stuff

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Speaker 2: I'm writing. But that kind of big mass market thing

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Speaker 2: which I'm spent thirty years getting very fucking good.

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Speaker 1: At it, totally, it is not done yet. How do

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Speaker 1: you work backwards from that? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: And I actually think your experience, although it's unique to you,

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Speaker 3: is as a generalization, is actually.

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Speaker 1: Something that's reality to the comment.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, so that's kind of why I wanted to

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Speaker 2: talk about it publicly. It's like, I can't be the

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Speaker 2: only fifty year old guy who's in this situation. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that external force is a If you're a copywriter, I'm sorry,

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Speaker 2: if you better figure out something else to do fast.

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Speaker 1: One hundred of eggs.

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Speaker 3: But in the entire industries, like as soon as you

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Speaker 3: start thinking about AI just as one of the disruptors

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Speaker 3: coming through, well as economic and as well as some

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Speaker 3: of the things, as soon as you actually start thinking

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Speaker 3: about it and gaming it out, it is fucking scary

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Speaker 3: where it could go and what it could do and

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Speaker 3: the impact is going to have. And I think anyone

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Speaker 3: listening to this, if you haven't gained out what AI

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Speaker 3: could do to your industry in the next ten years,

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Speaker 3: you really should and not freak out about it. And

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Speaker 3: it's not all doom and gloom, because there's amazing opportunities

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Speaker 3: within that. But if you're not thinking about it, like

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Speaker 3: your industry will tap you on the shoulder, your boss

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Speaker 3: will tap you on the shoulder because.

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Speaker 1: They've been thinking about it. Oh yeah.

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Speaker 3: That's where the kind of the premise for this book,

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Speaker 3: which work Backwards came from, was thinking about the idea

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Speaker 3: of work just got a big topic and the idea

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Speaker 3: of are we working in the right way individually? When

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Speaker 3: I start thinking about the entire industry, and I spent

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Speaker 3: a couple of years trying to get to the bondom

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Speaker 3: this problem, and I started reading research papers and speaking

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Speaker 3: to scientists and traveling around the world, and it kind

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Speaker 3: of came to this conclusion that the way that we're

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Speaker 3: working is broken, So how can we fix it?

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Speaker 1: How is it broken?

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Speaker 3: It's broken in that we are on a whole working

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Speaker 3: too much over work and the amount of time that

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Speaker 3: most people are spending on work and the importance of

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Speaker 3: replacement in our life is just too high.

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Speaker 1: Even during COVID, when.

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Speaker 3: People thought, wow, we can work from home and I

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Speaker 3: can do these things, most people ended up working longer

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Speaker 3: hours now post COVID and they did pre COVID, and

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Speaker 3: so all those numbers are going up. The second part

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Speaker 3: is that most people, once again this is generalization, because

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Speaker 3: everyone has an individual experience of work disengaged with work,

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Speaker 3: and this is something that I started reading. This research

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Speaker 3: study in particular, I was Gallop Research. We spoke to

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Speaker 3: one thousand people in one hundred and sixty different countries,

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Speaker 3: so a thousand people in each of those one hundred

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Speaker 3: and sixy different countries, and what they found was that

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Speaker 3: something like only twenty four percent of people, about a

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Speaker 3: quarter said they were actively engage at work, So about

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Speaker 3: three quarters of people were either passively or actively disengage

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Speaker 3: with the work.

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Speaker 2: That's a lot of wages that aren't doing what they're

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Speaker 2: supposed to be doing. Yeah, that's a lot of people

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Speaker 2: not they will not realize what's Yeah, I think about

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Speaker 2: it from both sides of the coin. I think about

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Speaker 2: what years are you wasting doing something you don't want

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Speaker 2: to do or that isn't serving you. And having done

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Speaker 2: jobs where I've phoned it in and be being disengaged,

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Speaker 2: the damage that's done to me our.

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Speaker 1: Ability to get the next job is significant.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that was something that kind of flawed me when

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Speaker 3: I read that, and I kept on thinking about and

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Speaker 3: I looked at different research, and all this research is

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Speaker 3: coming out to showing that most people that are disengaged

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Speaker 3: at work, why do they get disengaged for lots of

400
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Speaker 3: different reasons. They don't connect with what they're doing, They

401
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Speaker 3: are in the wrong jobs, they haven't worked backwards, and

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Speaker 3: I'll explain what they call the concept of that that is,

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Speaker 3: so they just kind of fall into a job from

404
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Speaker 3: school university without thinking about it. Is this right for them?

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Speaker 3: And I think we've let work become the number one

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Speaker 3: priority in most of our lives as opposed to life

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Speaker 3: outside of it. Which is everything else. Our relationships, our family,

408
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Speaker 3: our faith, our health, our minds, all of that kind

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Speaker 3: of has been pushed to the side of the past

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Speaker 3: couple of decades, whilst work has become the number one

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Speaker 3: priority and.

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Speaker 1: We often define our self identity by our occupation one

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Speaker 1: hundred percent. You did, Oh yeah, I absolutely did. For

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Speaker 1: a long time.

415
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Speaker 2: Didn't turn out too well because then when things don't

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Speaker 2: go well, I'm the reason that it's not where one

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Speaker 2: hundred percent.

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Speaker 1: And now I felt the entire weight of it. I didn't.

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Speaker 1: There was nothing to do with that. They since have

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Speaker 1: gone a bit things differently.

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Speaker 3: I'm exactly his aim, and I left Junkie after fifteen years.

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Speaker 3: People thought that my surname was from Junkie because I'll

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Speaker 3: introduced people, this is Tim from Junkie, and that was

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Speaker 3: whether it was a pub on a Saturday night or a.

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Speaker 1: Meeting or a Monday morning. And is it in a

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Speaker 1: medium name?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, from Junkie sounds quite exotic, doesn't it.

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Speaker 1: Eastern European.

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Speaker 3: And I went into a bit of a spiral as

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Speaker 3: well after for my identity, trying to figure out kind

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Speaker 3: of who I was if I wasn't Tim from junkie.

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Speaker 1: That was really hard.

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Speaker 3: So engagement is a big one of the third reason

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Speaker 3: why I think work is not working is because this

435
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Speaker 3: rise in apprehension, so rise in people a bit scared

436
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Speaker 3: about AI, a bit scared about what the future of

437
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Speaker 3: work is going to be. That was the intros to

438
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:34,880
Speaker 3: why I started thinking about this book when I thought

439
00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:38,440
Speaker 3: was important. And to go back to your original question

440
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,240
Speaker 3: around what the hell can you do? How can you

441
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:46,320
Speaker 3: think about this? We need to rethink how we approach work.

442
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:48,800
Speaker 3: So the really simple way of thinking about it is

443
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,200
Speaker 3: most of us think about WorkFirst. So we get a

444
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:55,840
Speaker 3: job from school, university, or a parents or someone with

445
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,320
Speaker 3: really good intentions says this is what you should do,

446
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:02,359
Speaker 3: and kind of fall into a career. The job then says, okay,

447
00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:03,960
Speaker 3: this how much money you're going to get. So you're

448
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 3: an accountant because your dad is an accountant, You're going

449
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,159
Speaker 3: to get sixty thousand dollars a year. And then we

450
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,400
Speaker 3: think about, Okay, what life can I live based on that, Well,

451
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,960
Speaker 3: I can afford a sharehouse somewhere twenty kilometers from the city,

452
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:19,000
Speaker 3: And that kind of spiral is really hard to get

453
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,520
Speaker 3: out of for thinking of work first and instead the

454
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,080
Speaker 3: whole concept behind work backwards. I mean thinking about the

455
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,439
Speaker 3: last couple of years and traveling the world and speaking

456
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 3: to people is flipping that around. So thinking life first,

457
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 3: who am I, what do I want to be, what

458
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,879
Speaker 3: do I enjoy? Then figuring out what's enough for me,

459
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:41,640
Speaker 3: what's the amount of money that I need to live

460
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:42,119
Speaker 3: that life?

461
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 1: And then and only then thinking about work.

462
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,160
Speaker 3: So what job do I need to do or how

463
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 3: can I use some of these tools available right now

464
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,439
Speaker 3: to change how I work in order to live that

465
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:53,200
Speaker 3: life I want to live.

466
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:58,120
Speaker 1: Where does productivity come into this? Where does the idea

467
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,000
Speaker 1: of I.

468
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,600
Speaker 2: Want to make an impact on the world and maybe

469
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,920
Speaker 2: an outsize and unreasonable impact on the world.

470
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:07,920
Speaker 1: Where does that come into that?

471
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, all of that can come into it at that

472
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:14,359
Speaker 3: start part, So figuring out life and so the really

473
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,480
Speaker 3: simple way I love acronyms. I love kind of like

474
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,359
Speaker 3: trying to take things that are quite hard for you

475
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 3: to understand and kind of make them into a word

476
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:23,960
Speaker 3: that you can spell out if you want to figure

477
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,159
Speaker 3: out the life part, So what impact you want to

478
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 3: have or anything like that. The simple thing that I

479
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 3: like to think about it is you need a map,

480
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 3: and so map is my acronym, which stands for the

481
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:34,440
Speaker 3: three things you need, which is.

482
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,720
Speaker 1: Meaning, anchors and priorities, And so.

483
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 3: Meaning is to know what meaning you get from work

484
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,480
Speaker 3: as well as what meaning you get from outside work.

485
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 3: Anchors is your call values.

486
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:46,200
Speaker 1: So what makes you and.

487
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,119
Speaker 3: Priorities is where does work and health and life and

488
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,880
Speaker 3: everything fit in amongst that. So that's a part where

489
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:54,919
Speaker 3: if you really want to make an oversized deck in

490
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 3: the world, yeah, you then make sure that's be the

491
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 3: one of your the meaning you want from work or

492
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:01,160
Speaker 3: one of your anchors.

493
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,680
Speaker 2: Right, we need to take a quick break from Tim

494
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,200
Speaker 2: Duggan to make some money from the work we're all

495
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:15,159
Speaker 2: doing today. Here's some ads back in a shake. What

496
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 2: are your thoughts around the boundaries of even though.

497
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 1: I'm at home, you know, watching an.

498
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:22,879
Speaker 2: Episode of Pluey about a house being on sale and

499
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,360
Speaker 2: crying with my kids, my phone is bring it at

500
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,440
Speaker 2: seven at night, and I know, oh, that's the thing

501
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 2: the pitch tomorrow as probably something really important. I'm expected

502
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,679
Speaker 2: as part of my job to pick that up. What

503
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 2: are your thoughts about that, about the boundaries that have

504
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 2: even when your work is now being invited into your home.

505
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:47,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I view this from two unique perspectives, which

506
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:52,199
Speaker 3: is one as an employer, so employers where you need

507
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,119
Speaker 3: to get things done and a pitch needs to happen.

508
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:59,360
Speaker 3: And I have been up and before I launched same

509
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 3: same in the first one site, I was an employee

510
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 3: and now I have.

511
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 1: I often joke that you know in box zero you're

512
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:07,159
Speaker 1: not to hilarious.

513
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 3: I joke that I now have staff zero as well,

514
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 3: where I kind of went from sixty semis after none.

515
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 1: We can talk about in box zero at a second.

516
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 2: I the in box zero is up there with every

517
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 2: fuck off, every fucking PDF that you can buy about

518
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 2: a weight loss plant.

519
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,119
Speaker 1: It's just selling a dream. I loath the concept of

520
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,440
Speaker 1: the inbox. It's selling a fucking dream that doesn't exist

521
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 1: and making you feel shit. I'm achieving its eyes because

522
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 1: you haven't. You haven't done the theirs course.

523
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 2: That's why give us another couple one hundred bucks and

524
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 2: we'll send you the extreme course about how to do

525
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 2: this and how to put all these automations. And the

526
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 2: other fucking thing that happens is you want to have

527
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 2: more time to send more emails, and the more emails

528
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 2: come in, they overwhelm this Previously didst them.

529
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,119
Speaker 1: It's nuts, but we're sold on the idea. We just

530
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 1: want freedom from this thing so much. Yeah, it's exploited.

531
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:51,159
Speaker 1: If I don't like it.

532
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think inbox zero is a lie and a scam,

533
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 3: and do not subscribe to it. It's okay to have

534
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 3: ten thousand emails in your inbox, And in fact, I

535
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 3: think one who gets to embog zero is probably designed

536
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 3: you have too much time on your hands. Oh yeah,

537
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 3: because you've got too much time to put everything away,

538
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 3: whereas email now you can search for it anyway.

539
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:13,159
Speaker 2: We digress. We're talking about the balance, so I.

540
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 3: Kind of view it from both employee side and employee side,

541
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 3: and it's going to be fascinating kind of watching right

542
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 3: to disconnect. It's important and it's necessary because we have

543
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 3: allowed those lines to become too blurred, and the idea

544
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 3: of boundary of when work stops and where life starts

545
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,159
Speaker 3: for many people is just too blurred. And so I

546
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 3: think that you need to bring harsh rules in sometimes

547
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 3: to say you cannot work and you shouldn't work longer

548
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 3: than this. And what I hope that it does is

549
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 3: that it incentivizes employers to look at workloads and look

550
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,119
Speaker 3: at work that they're giving people. So if you do

551
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,919
Speaker 3: have a pitch on tomorrow, you've done that before the

552
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,159
Speaker 3: day before. Oh yeah, and you don't have to do

553
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 3: an all nighter like you probably used to. I used

554
00:26:58,560 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 3: to do all nighters.

555
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,880
Speaker 2: And although if I've got a keynote or something, I'll

556
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,199
Speaker 2: allocate time, but the night before I'll give it a

557
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 2: look and go, oh, how on I had most of

558
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:08,720
Speaker 2: the work done, But I'll definitely give a look the

559
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 2: night before.

560
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, But I would never ask another person on my

561
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 1: team to do it for me.

562
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,920
Speaker 3: So that's a really interesting thing, which is there's two

563
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 3: types of workers and how we work, and it's really

564
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,640
Speaker 3: relevant to this conversation. And the two types are integrators

565
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 3: and segmentors, and my husband and I are actually examples

566
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,120
Speaker 3: of either of those. So an integrator, which is myself,

567
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 3: is someone who integrates work into life. So I will

568
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:36,880
Speaker 3: sit there and it might be a Sunday morning if

569
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 3: I think of a good idea, or I want to

570
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 3: open up my emails, open up my emails and I

571
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 3: start writing, or I start thinking, or I start responding

572
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 3: to people. That's integrators and the second type a segmentors,

573
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 3: and segmentors are people that can close their computer down

574
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 3: five o'clock and a Friday, not think about work, not

575
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,399
Speaker 3: reopen their computer, refuse to do it until Monday morning

576
00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 3: at eight am, and they open it back up again.

577
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,879
Speaker 3: And Google did a bunch of research recently asking their

578
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 3: staff now just about five thousand staff, which type of

579
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 3: worker are you? And about two thirds of people said

580
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 3: they were integrators. So most people are integrators. And this

581
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:18,119
Speaker 3: idea of segmentors, which is a positive thing generally. The

582
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 3: negative of being a segmentor is you're not super flexible.

583
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 3: But the idea of just understanding which type of worker

584
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 3: you are, I think is quite fascinating.

585
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 1: Historically though, we were all segmentors. Just buy choice.

586
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you're a carpenter, but you can't do anything

587
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 2: about the staircase problem that you're trying to solve at

588
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 2: the job you've got.

589
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: You know that you'll be out at seven o'clock tomorrow morning,

590
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 1: so you see the home and hang out with your kids. Yeah. Right.

591
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 3: Even in the early days of an office, you couldn't

592
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 3: bring you work home with you because it was in

593
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 3: your office.

594
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 2: Intray Now, because the tools of our work are literally

595
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 2: in our pockets.

596
00:28:55,960 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: Ordery is most definitely a segmentor and early in our.

597
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 2: Life together, it was when I was think writting one

598
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 2: of the drafts for the first book, She's like, well,

599
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 2: what are you going to be done? And I was like,

600
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 2: I could work for one hundred and eighteen hours and

601
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 2: not be done. And I realized fairly quickly, oh, because

602
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 2: I was only we've only been together recently, you know,

603
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 2: I've been by myself for a couple of years, and

604
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 2: that's just how it'd been working.

605
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 1: And I kind of had to learn, ah, probably gonna

606
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 1: have to be done for the day.

607
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 2: I started to learn, and this is one of the

608
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 2: things about the right to disconnect. What I think is

609
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 2: interesting that we don't consider. I started to learn after

610
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 2: so many hours of this, I might want to keep

611
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 2: doing it because I'm stimulated by the engagement, but I'm

612
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 2: actually just writing shit. It's not good stuff, and I'm

613
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 2: probably responding to people in the wrong tone, and I'm

614
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 2: just not making clear decisions because I've been doing it

615
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 2: for too long, so I should stop. And I started

616
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 2: to figure that out. We won't let a flight crew

617
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 2: sit on a tarmac for too long because forward thinking

618
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 2: ten hours from now, those pilots are little bit on

619
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 2: shift for fourteen hours, and they researched proven the pilots

620
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 2: who've been awake and that long make terrible decisions.

621
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 1: And they've got three hundred lives in their hands. Let's

622
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 1: get them to sleep.

623
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 2: Similarly with doctors, when my folks were both doctors, they

624
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 2: knew when they would be on call, and we're going

625
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 2: to ask you to be ready to pick up the

626
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 2: phone and dash to an emergency for this night and

627
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 2: this night, and they'd be great, no problem, because they

628
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 2: understand the decision making process is just critical and rest

629
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 2: is critical to hard decisions to make.

630
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: Yet we're thinking that it's just going to be fine.

631
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 2: If I'm asking someone to make a massive call on

632
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 2: a deal at eleven pm, they might be emotional. They

633
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 2: might have had a couple of drinks with dinner or whatever,

634
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 2: and then cataclysm followed sodly, But we don't think about that,

635
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 2: do we really?

636
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think the all of the ways that

637
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 3: we are working now, so working from home has amazing benefits,

638
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 3: but the drawbacks.

639
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 1: Your office is sometimes staring.

640
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 3: At you when you're having dinner. As you know, they're

641
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 3: blinking light waiting for you to turn it back on to.

642
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 1: Write some more emails.

643
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 3: And I don't think that we have yet adapted as

644
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 3: humans and as workers to that new style of working.

645
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 3: And that's why I think we have to do something.

646
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 3: All of those stats that I spoke about earlier around

647
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 3: overwork and engage in our branch and they're all just

648
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 3: going up to the right and unless we do something

649
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 3: to stop that there, we're just going to end up

650
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 3: at burnout or we're going to end up at overwork

651
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 3: or exhaustion or all of these things that you know

652
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 3: increase in the moment.

653
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 1: So what's going to happen, Like, at what point do

654
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 1: we have to make that call?

655
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 3: I think if less we make that call ourselves, someone

656
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 3: else is going to make it for us, or our

657
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 3: health is going to make it for us, or science

658
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 3: that science or technology is going to make it for us.

659
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 3: And that's the part where one thing that I'm just

660
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 3: really heavily advocating for at the moment is for people

661
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 3: to stop and consider and think about their own relationship

662
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 3: with work before something else external forces you to think about.

663
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 3: So sometimes that can be redundancy, Sometimes it gonna be technology.

664
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 3: Sometimes it can be your health. Sometimes it could be

665
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,959
Speaker 3: your relationship you would rather get ahead of all of

666
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 3: that and try and stop and think about it now,

667
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 3: maybe whilst things are good or whilst you're not in

668
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 3: an emergency situation. And that's literally the entire point of

669
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 3: my book work Backwards, is there to stop people. I'd

670
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 3: like to kind of like someone to read this and

671
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 3: just bang someone over the head politely, nically, non violently

672
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 3: and just say, just wake up a little bit and

673
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 3: think about this.

674
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 2: That's what Order and I did about two years ago when,

675
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 2: as I mentioned in the episode, you took that earlier

676
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 2: in this GG it's a fast yes for a slow no,

677
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 2: and the yeses were really flying down and I started

678
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 2: to change try it as much as I can to

679
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 2: kind of get my other revenue streams ramped up and

680
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 2: ready to go, which is amazing.

681
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 3: I think it's amazing that you've figured that out yourself

682
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 3: proactively through a lot of hard work, self reflection and

683
00:32:58,080 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 3: mentors and all those kind of things.

684
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 2: I don't have all the ideas, man, My life changed

685
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 2: when I realized it why my ideas weren't enough to

686
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 2: help me get out of the problems I was in

687
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 2: all right, Once I started asking other people what should

688
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 2: I do here?

689
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 1: And just trust them. Everything started getting better and think

690
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 1: it's for everything, just everything. It's okay.

691
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 2: If I don't have all the solutions, why would I.

692
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 2: I can't fix my motor bike. I pay someone to

693
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 2: do it. I don't know how to do it. I'm

694
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 2: no less of a man because of that. In fact,

695
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 2: I think I'm more of an acause I'm doing something

696
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 2: stupid and trying to change my BOKELP. Well, for the

697
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 2: kind of thing that you know, we're talking about a

698
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 2: large part of work backwards.

699
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 1: There is the work of keeping a home together.

700
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 2: It is a fuck ton of work which just increases

701
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 2: with hockey stick like graph lines the more children you

702
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 2: have and the less people who are in a full

703
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 2: time gig in the house. Things he had really hard

704
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 2: and complicated, and it is an enormous Jenga tower of difficulty.

705
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 2: How can someone think about you know these concept you're

706
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:01,479
Speaker 2: can someone think about that?

707
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: Who's trying to manage.

708
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 2: You know, the development of young human beings and spitting

709
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 2: them out into the world.

710
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,280
Speaker 1: There's great young human beings that can actually benefit society

711
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: and not be just shit.

712
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, the kinds of of a map is so personalized

713
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 3: because everyone is bringing this into different levels of privilege,

714
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 3: different levels of finances, different levels of work ethic that

715
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,439
Speaker 3: you kind of inherror from your parents or don't herror

716
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 3: from your parents. So sometimes I think when I kind

717
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 3: of talk about this concept of work backwards, they can

718
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 3: seem like it needs to be revolutionary, like it needs

719
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 3: to be change a complete life and give up on

720
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 3: your nine to five job and go and move overseas

721
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 3: to a deserted island, whereas sometimes it's just small things

722
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 3: that you can do.

723
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 1: They can have a big impact.

724
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 3: The finance side of this, and the because that's an

725
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 3: important side of it, because you're raising kids that you're

726
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 3: not just kids, but if you're doing anything to get

727
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 3: your life keep it in order, you need to finance it.

728
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,320
Speaker 3: And I actually think that we don't speak enough about

729
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 3: what money we need to live our life, and most

730
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:13,399
Speaker 3: of us just get caught up in the well wind

731
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 3: of life and the well wind of doing stuff and

732
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 3: paying for things and not stepping back and thinking about

733
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 3: do I need this? Do I want it is? What

734
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 3: is enough for me? What car do I need? Do

735
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 3: I need another car? Do we need two cars? All

736
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 3: these kind of questions I think are relatively most of

737
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 3: us live in kind of a default mode of not

738
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 3: thinking about it. And I actually think one of the

739
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 3: best exercise in the book because I'm a very practical person.

740
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 3: I've written the three books now and the end of

741
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 3: every chapter of every one of my three books is

742
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 3: actually good irl sands for in real life. And the

743
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 3: idea is that there's literally exercises because you want to

744
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 3: inspire someone to kind of understand something and then actually

745
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 3: put it into practice. And this book, in my backwards

746
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 3: I have I think got a backwards budget, which is

747
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 3: just a really really simple idea of actually thinking about of.

748
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: All of these areas of your life.

749
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:11,800
Speaker 3: And this was inspired by me living in the Campavat,

750
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,280
Speaker 3: where I kind of brought down to like the bare

751
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 3: minimum for me, what do I actually need? Do my

752
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 3: family need? What do we need? This sounds like something

753
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,799
Speaker 3: that you went through in your periods without doing the

754
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 3: backwards budget, but you would have thought how much money can.

755
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 1: You live on your mortgages and.

756
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,240
Speaker 3: House and cars and all those kind of things.

757
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 1: That all makes sense And I get it.

758
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 2: Yet if I open up my phone and it is

759
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 2: just message after message after message of your house doesn't

760
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 2: look as good as that person's has your bag's a

761
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 2: bit shit, isn't it.

762
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 1: Your T shirts look god as good as this T shirt?

763
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 2: Like, how do we resist the messaging that is just

764
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 2: non stop in our community around comparison.

765
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 3: Totally and consumerism and more and bigger, And that is

766
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 3: I think a lifetime struggle for all of us. Consumer

767
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,359
Speaker 3: society is built on I'm not a martyr in this.

768
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 3: This is you know, I don't made a lot of

769
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 3: money out of it yet totally. But I also the

770
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,840
Speaker 3: life that I live now is not this like a

771
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,359
Speaker 3: perfect marter life, writer bike chap, like, consume a lot

772
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 3: like anyone else. But it's mindful consumerism. And I think

773
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 3: the very first step in all of this is just

774
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 3: been aware of it. So being aware, like you can

775
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 3: decide to upgrade your car, there's no judgment whatever. It's

776
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 3: such a personalized decision for you. But don't do it automatically.

777
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 3: Don't do it without thinking. And sometimes you can lean

778
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:42,800
Speaker 3: in and say I want this because I want people

779
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 3: to think I'm more successful and I really like the

780
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 3: new ex model car that came out. That's fine, Just

781
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 3: do it consciously instead of doing it subconsciously or just

782
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 3: trying to keep up with the Joneses. I think as

783
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 3: soon as you can try to break some of that,

784
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 3: potentially you have the ability to have a little bit

785
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 3: more self awareness and try to just not buy in

786
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 3: less ship.

787
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 2: The way I try more and more to do it

788
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 2: is to because I had a very good problem with

789
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 2: the impulse purchasing when I was drinking and using.

790
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 1: I can't tell you how many eBay packages showed up

791
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 1: in my house that I don't remember ordering.

792
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 2: It's what can I how can I use my money

793
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:29,800
Speaker 2: to make my life better, add value and give constant

794
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,840
Speaker 2: value to my life versus I'm gonna look hot in

795
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 2: this I didn't get ship.

796
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 1: My wife hates it.

797
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,319
Speaker 2: I'm this T shirt and it's four years old. I

798
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 2: bought twelve of different colors from the same shop.

799
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 1: That's it. I don't care, but she does because so

800
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:46,800
Speaker 1: she buys me.

801
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:49,919
Speaker 2: She needs to see everything shed Yeah. She buys different

802
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 2: clothes like yeah, and I don't. My phone's a couple

803
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 2: of phones old does the job.

804
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 1: I'm fine.

805
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 2: When it starts to really die, that's when I'll get

806
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 2: one new one. But I'm not going to and you are,

807
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 2: just because they poured it out, just because I've.

808
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:02,919
Speaker 1: Got to have I've got to have, then you ain't

809
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 1: I got to.

810
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you get sucked into that I found in

811
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 2: the past, I just waste money and like it doesn't.

812
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 1: Really bring me any added value beyond the money I'll

813
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 1: spent on it. I talk about it all the time.

814
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 1: You can buy a big screen television.

815
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 2: But once you understand, essentially, once you understand Hardynic habituation

816
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 2: of when I get my be Telly, it's going to

817
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 2: be great. When I get eighty inches, it's going to

818
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 2: be fucking brilliant. And then the eighty inches, Yeah, real

819
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 2: people come.

820
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:26,839
Speaker 1: Out watch data Origin.

821
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 2: It's like we're Telly, Like a week later you'll be

822
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 2: seeing there going fuck, nothing's on totally, and.

823
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 3: You spend for the nuney inchur to come out, then

824
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 3: then I'll be out.

825
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: The things are going to be awesome. Akka not enough

826
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 1: K four K.

827
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 2: Not a kid a man cond we might I'll be

828
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 2: realizing how many decisions we're making about I fight it

829
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:51,359
Speaker 2: every day when I think about what it is I'm

830
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 2: going to do next, or how I'm going to build

831
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 2: the next thing with a bit of legacy about it.

832
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 1: How much I'm fighting. But if I move out of

833
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 1: this suburb. Then what am I? You know, that's a

834
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 1: loud voice.

835
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,799
Speaker 2: You know, if I am no longer a part of

836
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 2: the media landscape.

837
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 1: War it's arm wrestling.

838
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:15,360
Speaker 2: Literally, it's like ju jitsu national finals every day with

839
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 2: my ego. It's hard to do.

840
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:20,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think to bring it back to the

841
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 3: work and jobs, and this is all about identity, and

842
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 3: I think that it's easy for us to project a

843
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 3: sense of identity or to get caught up in this

844
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 3: if we actually haven't figured that shit out for our films.

845
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 2: You said, you travel around the world right this book,

846
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 2: and you saw a lot of different things. And I've

847
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:40,840
Speaker 2: spoken about this on the podcast before, but you know,

848
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 2: for example, the approach to work that a country like

849
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 2: Japan has versus our kind of western anglocentric thing, the

850
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 2: two very very different things, and the pride of providing

851
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 2: this job I tolked I was in Ginza, which is

852
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 2: the super high high high end luxury part of Tokyo,

853
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 2: and there's a man who probably looked in his sixties

854
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 2: and a pair of overalls sweeping up leaves out of

855
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 2: a gutter. All right, and here, because we're such English

856
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:18,760
Speaker 2: colonial fuck wits, we would.

857
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 1: Look for that person and go, yeah, should have fucking

858
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 1: worked harder.

859
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 2: At school, and a look on their faces like, fuck,

860
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 2: should have worked harder at school.

861
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: This guy look on his face was.

862
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 2: I am so proud to be cleaning up these leaves

863
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 2: to make my beautiful city beautiful so you can have

864
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 2: a great.

865
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 1: Day and go about your day. And the people looking

866
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:40,919
Speaker 1: at him are like, thank you for doing that, because

867
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:45,320
Speaker 1: that city looks beautiful because of you. I think we

868
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 1: could do a little bit of that, but that's just me. Yeah.

869
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 3: There's traveling the world to write and research to the

870
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 3: book was fascinating because there's every country has a different

871
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 3: approach to work and there is things to learn from

872
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:03,479
Speaker 3: them and also thinks to heed and warning signs as well.

873
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 1: So in Japan that work culture is very unique.

874
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 3: Not only are they hyper dedicated to work, they therefore

875
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 3: have huge problems with burnout, huge problems with overwork, the

876
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,439
Speaker 3: kind of concept of like people die sometimes from their

877
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:22,800
Speaker 3: dedication to work because they're working too much. They forget

878
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 3: to eat and drink and they get too stressed. So

879
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 3: there's this part of that passion I think is a

880
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 3: good thing, that there's this real passion, but other parts

881
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 3: are real negatives.

882
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 1: Towards it.

883
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 3: Researchers have really identified that there's three ways that most

884
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 3: of us tend to think about work. The first one

885
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 3: is a job, the second one is a career, and

886
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 3: the third one is a calling. And so a job

887
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 3: is you know, where you get money paid for it,

888
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:52,359
Speaker 3: and you close your computer down or you leave your

889
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 3: work site at the end of the day and you

890
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 3: don't think about it again.

891
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:54,839
Speaker 1: Yeah.

892
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 3: A career is when you try and get career advancement,

893
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 3: to move up a ladder, or to get professional learning,

894
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 3: or to get some advancement for yourself. And then a

895
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 3: calling is when you have this passion that supersedes everything

896
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 3: else and you can sweep streets forever because you think

897
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 3: you're doing the work of God. In textbooks most of

898
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,240
Speaker 3: the time that is presented in a triangle. So jobs

899
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 3: on the bottom, careers in the middle, and calling is

900
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,360
Speaker 3: the top. Yeah, And I think that's complete bullshit because

901
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 3: most of us won't have a calling, and this fetishization

902
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 3: of we have to have a calling.

903
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:36,280
Speaker 1: If you don't have a calling, then you're a loser.

904
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:39,919
Speaker 3: And you, you know, aren't as important as someone else,

905
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 3: I think is the.

906
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 1: Wrong way of thinking about work. If people are listening

907
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:43,279
Speaker 1: to this.

908
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 2: They we're kids who are in like fifty six d

909
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 2: any guns about to hit in the HC or whatever

910
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:48,480
Speaker 2: it's called in Queensland now I don't remember what it

911
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 2: was called to you while I was there. What would

912
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,399
Speaker 2: you say to parents around angle your kids in this

913
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 2: direction and maybe steer them towards these kind of skills.

914
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think for kids, but also for anyone stage.

915
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,320
Speaker 3: But if he concentrating on kids, kids quite amazing because

916
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 3: they haven't had the influencers, well meaning influencers in their

917
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 3: life to push them down a certain direction. And if

918
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 3: I was a listener, I would be very aware of

919
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 3: my own biases because just because it worked for me

920
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 3: or my parents does not mean it's going to work

921
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 3: for them. So I think pushing someone into university because

922
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 3: you went to university, push them into a trade because

923
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 3: you're a trades person, really be aware of your own

924
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 3: self interest here and trying to not push that onto somebody.

925
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:46,800
Speaker 3: The second thing I think is just thinking through that

926
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 3: acronym of a map. Maybe don't need to do all

927
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,799
Speaker 3: three for seventeen year old but meaning they probably don't

928
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:53,839
Speaker 3: know what meaning they get from workers.

929
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:54,400
Speaker 1: They haven't done it.

930
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 3: I think if you can concentrate on anchors, which is

931
00:44:57,560 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 3: the kind the call val use park is generally it's

932
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:01,360
Speaker 3: set by the time time are in our late teens,

933
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 3: and a lot of them inherited from my parents. Sometimes

934
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:09,280
Speaker 3: they're inherited in a negative way, and sometimes you rebel

935
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:11,839
Speaker 3: against what your parents and the white influence has haden.

936
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 3: So I think helping someone identify at a young age

937
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 3: what their core values are, what their anchors are, it's

938
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:20,799
Speaker 3: not going to change throughout their life, that can be

939
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:21,400
Speaker 3: life changing.

940
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:22,280
Speaker 2: Wow.

941
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 1: I see it already in Wolfgang.

942
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 2: He's not even five yet I can absolutely see he

943
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:29,400
Speaker 2: has a set of call values that are different to me.

944
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 2: His mum and his big sister is beautiful. I love

945
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 2: that we are how we come out, we really are.

946
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 2: And I've been a throne around myself by compromising all

947
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:42,200
Speaker 2: my values because I had an insecurity and I wanted

948
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 2: the approval of other people, and that led me down

949
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 2: pass so I wasn't thrilled about in the end. So

950
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:50,319
Speaker 2: it can help us understand it's like, hang on, what

951
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:52,440
Speaker 2: a second is this person align with I don't even

952
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 2: know what my values weren' until a couple of years back.

953
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 2: You know. If I had known that earlier, it would

954
00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:59,360
Speaker 2: have been that's a good place to start. I like

955
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:01,839
Speaker 2: that if you can whine, if you can just get

956
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:03,280
Speaker 2: the values play.

957
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 1: And I in box zero.

958
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 2: But let's say inbox minimal I'm an inbox minimalist. Packed

959
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 2: it up in a twelve week course. Boom, Get Cannon

960
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 2: Brooks on the phone. We could fucking launch by September.

961
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 3: We're on.

962
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:22,280
Speaker 2: That last year. Product by next January Boom product.

963
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, we're it. Acquisition in sent twenty six. We're

964
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 1: in done. Be brilliant, make it happen. Thank you for

965
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 1: coming in here. I'm really great for you came in.

966
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:34,279
Speaker 1: That was really nice. Thank you. I really enjoyed that.

967
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 2: And that was Tim Duggan.

968
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 1: The book is called Work Backwards. I'll put a.

969
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:42,959
Speaker 2: Link in the show notes to get it. And don't

970
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 2: forget to send me a picture of what you're looking

971
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 2: at right now. Sand dot Her email at gmail dot

972
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:48,879
Speaker 2: com is my email letters. You've got to be able

973
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 2: to make it though. You can't send me a picture

974
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:51,360
Speaker 2: from Perth, all right.

975
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 1: Unless you're gonna fly over go right ahead.

976
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 2: Doors are at six shows at six point thirty Sunday

977
00:46:56,160 --> 00:47:00,760
Speaker 2: night Marrickville Factory Theater, story Club, send me an email.

978
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 1: Whoever gives me a photo that I'm just like, Wow,

979
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:06,360
Speaker 1: you'll get two names on the door. Thank you so

980
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 1: much for listening.

981
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 2: Thanks to Adam for producing this episode, and thank you

982
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:11,400
Speaker 2: for listening. We're back here on Monday.

983
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 1: Jump on the substack if you want more and I'll

984
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 1: see you. Then here's a kiss for everybody. Bachelor Send

985
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 1: Bachelor