WEBVTT - Forensics and why fingerprints lie: Judith Fordham Pt.1 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.039 Detective sy aside of life the average person is never 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.080 exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.320 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:48.680 Today we took a deep dive into the world of 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:52.560 crime and courts. We form a criminal barrister do for them. 0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:55.600 Judith gave us good insight in what goes on when 0:00:55.640 --> 0:00:58.080 someone finds themselves on the wrong side of the law. 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:01.920 We talked about some of Australis cases, including a man 0:01:02.000 --> 0:01:04.880 who is charged with murder for simply speaking angrily with 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:08.160 a neighbor, and getting an acquittal for a client who 0:01:08.280 --> 0:01:12.360 stabbed a person. Judith works for both the defense and 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:15.640 the prosecution, so in that regard, she has a unique perspective. 0:01:16.000 --> 0:01:18.959 An expert in forensic science and law, you'll see why 0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:21.680 she's a good person to have on your side. Now, 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:24.480 I've never sat down with a criminal barrister who hasn't 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:27.399 got a crazy story to tell about the world of crime. 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:30.040 As you'll hear, it was an interesting and fun chat 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:32.640 with someone who has a very quirky view on life. 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:36.080 Judith for them, welcome to I Catch Killers. 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:37.399 Thanks for having me. 0:01:37.800 --> 0:01:42.039 Well, I'm very excited about sitting down and speaking to 0:01:42.080 --> 0:01:45.640 a barrister and there's a former cop that's not always away. 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:51.120 I must admit. Yeah, your type used to terrorize me 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:54.240 in court many a time in the witness box. But 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:56.760 it's all part of the justice system, isn't. 0:01:56.600 --> 0:01:58.400 It's called keeping the bastards honest. 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:03.800 Well that's the I think that's fair enough. Now, you 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:07.800 worked in both defense and prosecution, so you've got a 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:11.640 good perspective from both sides. I'm going to ask you 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:14.519 the obvious question. I know you're sick of this question. 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:18.800 When you're representing someone that you know or you believe, 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:21.600 I should say believe is guilty of the crime and 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:24.760 you're representing defending them. How do you feel how do 0:02:24.840 --> 0:02:26.160 you navigate your way through that. 0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:30.800 I'll give you the long answer. The short answer is, 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:33.839 I'll give you a short answer. First, is that it's 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:37.519 not my business. That's the business of the magistrate of 0:02:37.600 --> 0:02:40.280 it's magistrate's court or the jury if it's a jury trial, 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:42.840 that's what they do. I don't do that. That's not 0:02:42.880 --> 0:02:46.440 my job. I'm a mouthpiece or a voice for whatever 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:50.919 position there is. The longer answer, though, is that I've 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:54.760 learned by bitter experience that I'm not always right. I 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:56.840 know that may come as a surprise to you, but 0:02:57.040 --> 0:03:02.000 actually not. 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:05.760 That that's a first for former barrister to come and 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:06.720 come out and say. 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:08.480 At least you didn't say it's first for a woman, 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:10.720 because then I would have reached down here and strangled you. 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:14.160 I'm stupid, but I'm not brave. 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:18.440 Yeah. So, I mean, I've had experiences where I believe 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:21.640 my client is as guilty as sin, and you know, 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:24.960 things have unrolled where they're actually not and I was 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:27.840 completely wrong, And that's taught me a big lesson, that 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:30.720 is it really isn't my business. I mean, if someone 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:34.560 if the evidence is stacked against them, I'll say to them, Look, 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:37.840 you know, don't be stupid. You need to plead guilty 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:40.560 because if you put everyone through a trial for no 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:43.120 good reason, you know, you get the books thrown out 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:44.680 you're basically for doing that, or you won't get your 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:47.880 brownie points for putting your hand up basically. But no, 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:49.480 I've learned I'm not always right. 0:03:49.640 --> 0:03:53.240 Okay, Well, it's probably a good way to approach it. 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:57.400 And you've certainly you've certainly had some interesting cases in 0:03:57.440 --> 0:04:02.360 your time. And before I start talking about them, the responsibility, 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:06.040 whether it be prosecuting or the probably you feel the 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:09.080 pressure even more when you're defending someone. How do you 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:13.000 deal with that because your decisions and your strategies and 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:16.040 the way that you, let's say, defend the case could 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:19.440 determine this person's the future of this person's life. Literally. 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:25.200 Yeah, look, it's it's not easy. I remember the things, 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:27.920 you know, mistakes I've made, and I'll remember them forever. 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:30.480 I don't sort of, you know, lie back and sort 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:34.480 of go oh god, I'm good, you know, and feel 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:37.240 good about my victories, you know, no matter what side 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:40.800 I'm on. But you know, it's a huge responsibility in 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:44.040 the day. You know, you kick back and relax and 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:47.880 believe that you know everything is the day, you probably 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:51.120 should stop doing it. So, yeah, I still do sleep 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:52.880 at night, but maybe that's just me. 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:55.680 Yeah, well I suppose. And in talking to you the 0:04:55.720 --> 0:05:00.320 other day you said about the preparation, you don't approach 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:02.960 it with a flippant attitude that now I can do this, 0:05:03.040 --> 0:05:05.000 it's easy. You put the effort into it. 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:07.039 Well you have to, and I mean it is all 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:11.960 in the preparation, but there's also those unknowns that you know, 0:05:12.000 --> 0:05:13.440 you've got to be able to go with the flow. 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:15.520 You've got to be able to if something changed. You 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:17.680 can't plan it out and say, all right, these are 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:19.080 the questions I'm going to ask, this is what I'm 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:21.040 going to do, this is what the person's going to say. 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:23.600 You're not in control of what they're going to say back, 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:27.320 and so you've got to be able to be, you know, 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:33.120 really flexible. And that's something you've got to trust your gut. 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:35.000 And it must have been the same in your job. 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:37.719 You have to trust your gut, but you've got to 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:41.240 also be able to abandon what you're going to do 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:44.479 and go huh, this has taken a new turn, right, 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:46.200 I'm just going to have to go with it. I mean, 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:52.960 I've had that experience in I remember a particular trial 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:54.760 which I know we're going to talk about about at 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:58.680 some point, which is a shaken baby case where something 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:01.920 happened completely out of the blue, and you know, I 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:05.280 just sort of waltzed in and asked random questions not 0:06:05.360 --> 0:06:09.760 knowing the answer and saw what developed. And that's frightening there. 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:14.680 But part of the job, you said, I might have 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:17.279 an understanding of I suppose it's like the interview room. 0:06:17.360 --> 0:06:21.240 And I was taught and I try. I learned from 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:24.000 people that mentored me that you've got to be flexible 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:26.200 in your thinking. Like if you're going with a strategy 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:28.719 for an interview and then it could take a left 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:31.880 hand turn that you didn't expect, You've got to think 0:06:31.920 --> 0:06:34.960 on your feet and be flexible in where you take 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:35.640 the conversation. 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:38.200 Well, you can miss important stuff if you're stuck to 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:42.240 a particular line, and if you miss it, it could 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:48.520 do a really some real damage to finding out the truth. 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:53.680 And I know that that can sometimes be a flexible concept. 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:57.600 I suppose, and you know the justice system sadly, isn't 0:06:57.600 --> 0:06:59.839 really about finding out the truth. It's about two sides. 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:03.599 It a battle, and you know somebody wins on the day. 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:05.359 But is that the same as getting to the truth? 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:07.640 And I think that's the same in police interviews. I 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:10.840 mean I spent a fair bit of time training at 0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:15.680 people at DTS Detective Training School, and you know, I'd 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:19.720 be saying to them, look, just because you believe, you 0:07:19.760 --> 0:07:22.200 know this person did it or this is how it happened, 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:25.400 you've got to keep your mind open because you could 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:30.760 miss something. And that was sometimes hard for people to swallow, 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:33.160 because you know, we know he did it or we 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:37.920 know that this is how it unfolded. And sometimes the 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:40.280 only way I could make that palatable for them would 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:43.240 be to say, well, some smart ALEC defense lawyer might 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:45.800 come up with some other idea and you better be prepared. 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:47.640 So isn't it better to be able to say in 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:50.360 the witness box? Yeah, yeah, we thought of that. We 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:52.800 thought of that, but you know we checked it out 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:55.200 and it didn't pan out, rather than oh I didn't 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:59.560 think of that, because you know, having that sprung on 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:03.200 you in court probably isn't very pleasant, and it might get. 0:08:03.120 --> 0:08:06.440 Right, Yeah, well, I think from a police officer's point 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:08.200 of view, and I've seen it. I've probably done it 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:10.600 myself if you get stuck into a narrative in the 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:13.120 witness box and you're not flexible in your thinking in 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:17.440 under cross examination. And I've seen some detectives dig holes 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:20.360 for themselves by just sticking to their narrative and not 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:23.600 you know, you, as a defense barrister could say, well, 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:26.320 is it possible such and such could happen, and the 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:29.680 detective no, well, it is possible, And you've got to 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:32.960 got to be a little bit considerate of the way 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:35.200 that you answer and not lock yourself in and just 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:39.760 be so stubborn that yeh, you're right, they're wrong. And 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:41.959 it is a theater the court too. I've got to 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:44.080 say that you've got a jury. The jury are forming, 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:46.120 and I can't wait till we have the chat in 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:50.920 this in the podcast about your experiences examining juries. But 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:54.840 the juries are forming opinions, and they're forming very human 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:58.640 opinions about the way the witness is holding themselves, how 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:00.920 they're responding to the answers. So there's a whole range 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:02.400 of things that come into the mix, isn't it. 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:04.440 Oh, well, you lose your credibility. You sit there like 0:09:04.480 --> 0:09:08.640 a buffhead and don't accept something which is obviously a 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:11.720 perfectly resent proposition. But you need to take it back 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:15.040 too and consider those alternatives in the interview process and 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:17.480 the investigation process so that you don't end up in 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:21.679 court going you know, no, that's not possible, when it 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:24.280 clearly is, because nothing else that comes out of your 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:25.240 mouth will be believed. 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:27.920 Then I like your facial expressions there. 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:32.280 I used to get into trouble and court from judges. 0:09:32.280 --> 0:09:34.800 They used to tell me to stop pulling faces. 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:37.760 Like I'm just I'm picturing being in the witness box 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:42.280 and they answering the question. I can see the impact 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:44.400 it would have. I want to ask about. There's a 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:46.640 lot of cases I want to talk about. I want 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:50.120 to talk about the person that was charged with murder 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:54.240 for basically talking in an angry, angry tone to his neighbor. 0:09:54.320 --> 0:09:56.280 Can you just talk us through that case. I think 0:09:56.320 --> 0:09:59.679 that's an interesting case in it again, it's a lesson 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:00.720 forever one, isn't it. 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:04.880 Well, yeah, because you know you think it can't happen 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:06.839 to me or your friend or your mate, or your 0:10:06.840 --> 0:10:10.640 son or your daughter or whatever. You can find yourself 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:14.200 tied up in the criminal justice system and charged with 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:17.200 the crime. For example, even though you know you didn't 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:19.320 think it possibly happened to you. It only happens to 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:23.280 other people. And this particular case was a guy who 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:27.560 had a a pretty good party at his place, you know, 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:30.240 barbie out the back and bit of noise and some 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:33.760 loud music, and it went on and on and on, 0:10:33.840 --> 0:10:38.400 and the neighbor got very upset about it. Understandably, by 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:41.679 about four am, the neighbor was pretty unimpressed. I think 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:46.679 he had worked the next day, and he complained, and 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:49.200 he called the cops a couple of times, and you know, 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:50.920 the music will go down the cops or ive and 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:53.400 go back up as soon as they left. You may 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:56.400 have attended jobs like that back in the far distant past, 0:10:56.440 --> 0:11:01.199 I don't know. And in the end, seven point thirty 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:03.560 in the morning, it's still going and the neighbor came 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:07.880 over and you know, had an argument with this guy 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:10.839 and it came down to it came down to a 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:13.320 bit of push and shove. Actually that went both ways. 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:23.840 And basically after some time of this, you know, argie, bargie, 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:26.400 that's those are lawyer words. By the way, I hope 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:27.400 you can follow. 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:29.400 Me legal terminology. 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:34.400 Yeah, the guy had a heart attack, as in, the 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:37.640 neighbor had a heart attack. My client, because he became 0:11:37.679 --> 0:11:41.840 my client, found himself charged with murder. How can that 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:46.320 be murder? How could that be? And the prosecution theory 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:49.360 was that the stress had caused this guy to have 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:55.560 a heart attack, and my client was therefore somehow responsible. 0:11:56.240 --> 0:11:59.920 Now you might sit back and possibly even put your 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:02.839 own defense hat on there and think, well, hang on 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:06.160 a minute, how you know, aren't you supposed to actually 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:08.480 mean to kill somebody if you charged with murder? Isn't 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:11.120 that sort of basic one? 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:16.640 Well, definitely that you need that and the proofs of murder. 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:21.360 Yeah, but they said their attitude was the other side, 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:26.480 that he should have known and therefore that becomes a murder. 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:29.240 He should have known this could happen. My argument from 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:32.760 the defense point of view is, firstly, he couldn't have known. 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:35.040 The guy wasn't walking under the sign in his chest 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:37.680 saying if you argue with me, I will have a 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:41.120 heart attack. And what's more than the important thing for 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:44.080 me was the medicine aspect of it, and that is, 0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:48.200 did he in fact cause this guy to have a 0:12:48.200 --> 0:12:50.200 heart attack, or was a guy going to have a 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:52.640 heart attack anyway, even if he'd just woken up in 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:55.120 the morning and just had his wheaties. And I don't 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:57.520 mean to make light of someone's death, but you know, 0:12:57.600 --> 0:13:00.520 we're in a situation where the stakes are very high, 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:03.880 and this chap could be in jail for a very 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:07.439 very long time. He's got to be, in a sense 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:13.080 morally guilty as well. In the end, they called a 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:18.120 cardiologist and to give evidence to say that my chap 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:23.600 had mediically, scientifically caused the heart attack. And this cardiologist 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:26.560 did give that evidence, and he'd given this written opinion 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:31.720 which said, no, without doubt, you know, this chap caused 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:34.000 the heart attack. And reason he caused it is that 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:39.959 stress can cause heart attacks. And this guy, the cardiologists 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:44.120 professor or whatever he was, had cited a whole lot 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:48.160 of studies. He'd said, look, you know, in New Zealand, 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:50.160 after the earthquake, a whole lot of people died of 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:54.200 heart attacks, or after bombings in Iran, a whole lot 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:56.319 of people died of heart attacks, and that proves that 0:13:56.360 --> 0:14:00.280 stress causes heart attacks. So I started asking him what 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:03.800 I thought were pretty obvious questions, like in New Zealand 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:07.360 after the earthquake, somebody comes in dead and they don't 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:09.480 have a mark on them. Do they actually do a 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:12.320 post mortem and check if the heart attack or do 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:14.920 they just tick the box saying heart attack or technically 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:19.040 myocard you'll infection. I can say the words too, and 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:21.440 of course they don't. They're too busy saving the living, 0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:24.280 they're not you know, so it's a ticker box thing. 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:26.200 Do you actually know? And of course the answer that 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:28.760 has to be no, we don't know. Well that doesn't 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:30.840 do a lot of good for those studies, does it. 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:34.360 But we actually got to a point of complete ridiculousness, 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:38.200 if there's such a word, because all these studies said, look, 0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:41.640 it looks like stress may or cause heart attacks. You know, 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:44.920 we don't know for sure, and we can't do an experiment. 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:47.520 We can't take you know, two thousand people, stress them 0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:49.320 all out and find out how many of them die? 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:50.400 See who dies? 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:55.080 Yeah, there's certain ethical problems with doing that. So you know, 0:14:55.160 --> 0:14:57.200 all these studies say, we don't really know, it looks 0:14:57.200 --> 0:14:58.840 like it might. I said, how can you then turn 0:14:58.840 --> 0:15:02.480 around and say, in this specif situation, my client caused 0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:06.080 this specific person to die, particularly because we found out 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:11.000 he had pinpoint diameters in his arteries, in his heart. 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:13.560 He was basically walking time Bob. Anyway, he could have 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:17.200 died at any point he had undiagnosed coronary artery disease. 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:20.200 And this guy says, oh, no, we do know all 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:23.480 these people who've written these papers. A line said, what 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:26.080 this is where you have to abandon the script because 0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:27.640 I had no idea he was going to say that. 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:31.400 I said, In fact, my next question was, you're not serious. 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:34.200 This was all in front of the jury. It came 0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:36.800 down to a jury decision your client. 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:39.360 Yeah, and they did ac quit him and bluntly, so 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:41.960 they should have. And I think probably most people would 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:45.120 agree that really is a bit rough to charge someone 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:48.040 with murder. They could have charged him with, you know, 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:52.080 thumping the guy, or although that could have gone both ways, 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:56.200 or you know, is there such a crime as public disturbance? 0:15:56.240 --> 0:15:58.800 I don't even know, but they could have charged with 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:00.800 something else but murder. Get break. 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:04.280 Yeah, well, the case you as you were talking through that, 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:07.720 I remember an early case that I did where some 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:11.120 young fellas broke into a house and they weren't very 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:13.720 good crooks. They broke in the house to steal the 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:16.520 dudes to the house. I was sixteen and seventeen so 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:18.840 they could sell the house. They hadn't really thought I 0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:22.240 thought it through. I know, it's an elderly man that 0:16:22.600 --> 0:16:24.920 lived there on his own, breaking the house. We're going 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:26.560 to steal the dudes to the house, and then we're 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:29.640 going to sell the house. Great plan, guys. They broke 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:31.880 him through a window at night, he woke up, they 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:37.000 disturbed them, They pushed him, and he died. They panicked, 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:40.320 They took his body away, dumped him in a shallow grave. 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:43.400 It was dug up by dogs. Police called in, so 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:47.880 you've got the actions after. We charged those guys with murder, 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:50.760 but it came down to the medical evidence that he 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:55.000 was literally a step away from having a heart attack, 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:57.680 and that was the post more than he died as 0:16:57.680 --> 0:16:59.960 a result of a heart attack. We never got them 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:03.440 convicted of murder. It didn't get to get to trial stage. 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:07.840 It was accepted that unlawful disposal of the body, break 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:11.520 an enter or assault, that type of thing. But yeah, 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:15.520 that's a medical evidence. And when you talked about you 0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:18.520 shouldn't make assumptions or believe you know the true story, 0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:22.320 Like as a detective hole that there's a sign of entry, 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:25.600 the house has been rated through, things have been stolen, 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:29.119 the body's been dumped in a shallow grave. You're thinking murder. 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:31.520 But when it all played out and all the evidence 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:33.960 came out and you look at it, and I wasn't 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:37.760 disgruntled with that decision to go down that path. I 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:39.879 thought it was the right decision. They didn't break in 0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:42.919 there with the intent to murder him. They certainly didn't 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:45.159 think he would die as a result of them breaking 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:45.800 into the house. 0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:48.120 Yeah, yeah, I mean you've got to take step back 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:50.280 and say, in the end, that was probably the right result. 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:53.000 You know, do them for burglary, do them for disposing 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:56.000 of a corpse or whatever it is, and that would 0:17:56.160 --> 0:17:58.480 feel to be about the right result. I mean I 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:00.719 had one exactly the same way. I was approached by 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:04.119 a chap something like forty years after his convicted and 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:08.040 did his time for murder, and he'd broken in when 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:11.720 he was a young bloke. And again somebody died, and 0:18:11.840 --> 0:18:15.320 this chap died about twenty minutes later of bleeding ulcer. 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:20.560 And back then the received wisdom was stress causes ulcers, 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:23.440 but of course we now know it doesn't. In fact, 0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:28.280 there's two Western Australians won the Nobel Prize for finding 0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:32.119 out that, in fact, it's a bacterium called helic Go 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:35.359 back to pylori. There you go. That's two more big words. 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:38.919 You're throwing out the big medical term. So I should 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:41.560 have had a dictionary, a medical dictionary here in front 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:43.159 of me. I won't understand what you're saying. 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:45.520 Oh, I don't worry. I'll explain it to you. The 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:47.800 question is where you know I'm telling you lies or not. 0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:52.280 But this guy, no, he died of a bleeding ulcer 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:54.960 and he was convicted of murder, but he wanted to 0:18:54.960 --> 0:18:57.720 clear his name. Way way way down the track. He'd 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:03.360 done his the entire sentence, and he wanted to join 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:05.960 the army. For example, they wouldn't let him join the army. 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:10.080 I found him some help and we got an affidavit 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:15.120 from the Nobel Prize winner saying this, and eventually his 0:19:15.240 --> 0:19:18.800 name was cleared. I didn't see it all the way through. 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:22.080 I just didn't have the resources to do it personally. 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:24.800 But he was looked after and his name was cleared. 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:28.119 But interestingly, the forman of the jury actually wrote a 0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:32.160 letter later saying, we wish we'd had more medical evidence. 0:19:32.600 --> 0:19:36.119 We understand there's some word about if you like that 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:38.960 stress doesn't cause ulcers. We would have liked to have 0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:41.560 heard about that, but we didn't have it, so we 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:44.640 had to convict on the evidence we had. And that 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:46.840 takes me back to that point I made initially, and 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:50.280 that is it's a battle, and you don't necessarily as 0:19:50.280 --> 0:19:52.480 a juror have the evidence you might have wanted to 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:55.120 have because each side decides what they're going to dish up. 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:01.399 Things that's in my career that we assumed that's a 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:06.080 given that like blood splatter patterns, ballistic evidence, like a 0:20:06.119 --> 0:20:08.560 lot of that. Now we're looking at and it's not 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:11.800 as and exact sciences what we believed at the time 0:20:12.240 --> 0:20:13.760 or what science believed at the time. 0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:18.160 Well ballistics, does you know if you're talking about angles 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:23.480 and things, Yeah, that works on physics, and bloodstained pattern 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:26.720 analysis or blood splatter as some people want to call it, 0:20:28.000 --> 0:20:31.879 that also abides by the rules of physics. But things 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:35.400 like fingerprints, which were you know, I used to tell 0:20:35.440 --> 0:20:37.480 my clients, and I feel really bad about this now. 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:39.280 I used to say, look, they've got your fingerprints. They've 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:41.520 got you better plead guilty. You know you're stupid. If 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:44.800 you don't read my lips, you're four letter word, which 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:47.520 I'd probably better not say. But you know the one 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:48.320 I'm talking about. 0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:52.280 As I told you before, I lived over in Western 0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:54.119 Australia for a while. I know it's used as a 0:20:54.119 --> 0:20:56.159 punctuation mark sometimes. 0:20:56.520 --> 0:20:58.719 Yeah, but I mean when you're communicating with your clients, 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:01.240 you've got to be able to commit in their language. 0:21:01.280 --> 0:21:05.600 So yeah, But fingerprints, I now think are pretty much 0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:09.000 equivalent to the reading of entrails of goats in ancient 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:14.360 Greece to tell the future someone who's comparing fingerprints. They 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:16.840 have this method, I mean, don't get me started, or 0:21:16.880 --> 0:21:19.479 do get me started, whatever you want. They have a 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:24.879 method called ACEV. You probably know about it, and it 0:21:25.119 --> 0:21:27.160 just it's an acronym. It stands for what they do. 0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:30.880 But they say, if you follow the method, you can't 0:21:30.960 --> 0:21:34.360