1
00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:04,880
Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

2
00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,039
Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life the average person is never

3
00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,080
Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

4
00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,040
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

5
00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:16,200
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

6
00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:20,560
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

7
00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,120
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

8
00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,400
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

9
00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,760
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

10
00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,440
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

11
00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,640
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

12
00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,640
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

13
00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:40,320
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

14
00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:48,680
Speaker 1: Today we took a deep dive into the world of

15
00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:52,560
Speaker 1: crime and courts. We form a criminal barrister do for them.

16
00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:55,600
Speaker 1: Judith gave us good insight in what goes on when

17
00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,080
Speaker 1: someone finds themselves on the wrong side of the law.

18
00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,920
Speaker 1: We talked about some of Australis cases, including a man

19
00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:04,880
Speaker 1: who is charged with murder for simply speaking angrily with

20
00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:08,160
Speaker 1: a neighbor, and getting an acquittal for a client who

21
00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:12,360
Speaker 1: stabbed a person. Judith works for both the defense and

22
00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:15,640
Speaker 1: the prosecution, so in that regard, she has a unique perspective.

23
00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:18,959
Speaker 1: An expert in forensic science and law, you'll see why

24
00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:21,680
Speaker 1: she's a good person to have on your side. Now,

25
00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:24,480
Speaker 1: I've never sat down with a criminal barrister who hasn't

26
00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,399
Speaker 1: got a crazy story to tell about the world of crime.

27
00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,040
Speaker 1: As you'll hear, it was an interesting and fun chat

28
00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:32,640
Speaker 1: with someone who has a very quirky view on life.

29
00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:36,080
Speaker 1: Judith for them, welcome to I Catch Killers.

30
00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:37,399
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

31
00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:42,039
Speaker 1: Well, I'm very excited about sitting down and speaking to

32
00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:45,640
Speaker 1: a barrister and there's a former cop that's not always away.

33
00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:51,120
Speaker 1: I must admit. Yeah, your type used to terrorize me

34
00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:54,240
Speaker 1: in court many a time in the witness box. But

35
00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:56,760
Speaker 1: it's all part of the justice system, isn't.

36
00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:58,400
Speaker 2: It's called keeping the bastards honest.

37
00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,800
Speaker 1: Well that's the I think that's fair enough. Now, you

38
00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:07,800
Speaker 1: worked in both defense and prosecution, so you've got a

39
00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:11,640
Speaker 1: good perspective from both sides. I'm going to ask you

40
00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:14,519
Speaker 1: the obvious question. I know you're sick of this question.

41
00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:18,800
Speaker 1: When you're representing someone that you know or you believe,

42
00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:21,600
Speaker 1: I should say believe is guilty of the crime and

43
00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:24,760
Speaker 1: you're representing defending them. How do you feel how do

44
00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:26,160
Speaker 1: you navigate your way through that.

45
00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:30,800
Speaker 2: I'll give you the long answer. The short answer is,

46
00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:33,839
Speaker 2: I'll give you a short answer. First, is that it's

47
00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,519
Speaker 2: not my business. That's the business of the magistrate of

48
00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,280
Speaker 2: it's magistrate's court or the jury if it's a jury trial,

49
00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:42,840
Speaker 2: that's what they do. I don't do that. That's not

50
00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,440
Speaker 2: my job. I'm a mouthpiece or a voice for whatever

51
00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:50,919
Speaker 2: position there is. The longer answer, though, is that I've

52
00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,760
Speaker 2: learned by bitter experience that I'm not always right. I

53
00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:56,840
Speaker 2: know that may come as a surprise to you, but

54
00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:02,000
Speaker 2: actually not.

55
00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:05,760
Speaker 1: That that's a first for former barrister to come and

56
00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:06,720
Speaker 1: come out and say.

57
00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:08,480
Speaker 2: At least you didn't say it's first for a woman,

58
00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:10,720
Speaker 2: because then I would have reached down here and strangled you.

59
00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:14,160
Speaker 1: I'm stupid, but I'm not brave.

60
00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:18,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, I mean, I've had experiences where I believe

61
00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,640
Speaker 2: my client is as guilty as sin, and you know,

62
00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,960
Speaker 2: things have unrolled where they're actually not and I was

63
00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,840
Speaker 2: completely wrong, And that's taught me a big lesson, that

64
00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:30,720
Speaker 2: is it really isn't my business. I mean, if someone

65
00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,560
Speaker 2: if the evidence is stacked against them, I'll say to them, Look,

66
00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,840
Speaker 2: you know, don't be stupid. You need to plead guilty

67
00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,560
Speaker 2: because if you put everyone through a trial for no

68
00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,120
Speaker 2: good reason, you know, you get the books thrown out

69
00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:44,680
Speaker 2: you're basically for doing that, or you won't get your

70
00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:47,880
Speaker 2: brownie points for putting your hand up basically. But no,

71
00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:49,480
Speaker 2: I've learned I'm not always right.

72
00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:53,240
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, it's probably a good way to approach it.

73
00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:57,400
Speaker 1: And you've certainly you've certainly had some interesting cases in

74
00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:02,360
Speaker 1: your time. And before I start talking about them, the responsibility,

75
00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:06,040
Speaker 1: whether it be prosecuting or the probably you feel the

76
00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,080
Speaker 1: pressure even more when you're defending someone. How do you

77
00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:13,000
Speaker 1: deal with that because your decisions and your strategies and

78
00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:16,040
Speaker 1: the way that you, let's say, defend the case could

79
00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:19,440
Speaker 1: determine this person's the future of this person's life. Literally.

80
00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:25,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, look, it's it's not easy. I remember the things,

81
00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:27,920
Speaker 2: you know, mistakes I've made, and I'll remember them forever.

82
00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:30,480
Speaker 2: I don't sort of, you know, lie back and sort

83
00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:34,480
Speaker 2: of go oh god, I'm good, you know, and feel

84
00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,240
Speaker 2: good about my victories, you know, no matter what side

85
00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,800
Speaker 2: I'm on. But you know, it's a huge responsibility in

86
00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:44,040
Speaker 2: the day. You know, you kick back and relax and

87
00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:47,880
Speaker 2: believe that you know everything is the day, you probably

88
00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:51,120
Speaker 2: should stop doing it. So, yeah, I still do sleep

89
00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:52,880
Speaker 2: at night, but maybe that's just me.

90
00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I suppose. And in talking to you the

91
00:04:55,720 --> 00:05:00,320
Speaker 1: other day you said about the preparation, you don't approach

92
00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:02,960
Speaker 1: it with a flippant attitude that now I can do this,

93
00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:05,000
Speaker 1: it's easy. You put the effort into it.

94
00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,039
Speaker 2: Well you have to, and I mean it is all

95
00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:11,960
Speaker 2: in the preparation, but there's also those unknowns that you know,

96
00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:13,440
Speaker 2: you've got to be able to go with the flow.

97
00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:15,520
Speaker 2: You've got to be able to if something changed. You

98
00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:17,680
Speaker 2: can't plan it out and say, all right, these are

99
00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:19,080
Speaker 2: the questions I'm going to ask, this is what I'm

100
00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:21,040
Speaker 2: going to do, this is what the person's going to say.

101
00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:23,600
Speaker 2: You're not in control of what they're going to say back,

102
00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:27,320
Speaker 2: and so you've got to be able to be, you know,

103
00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:33,120
Speaker 2: really flexible. And that's something you've got to trust your gut.

104
00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:35,000
Speaker 2: And it must have been the same in your job.

105
00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:37,719
Speaker 2: You have to trust your gut, but you've got to

106
00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:41,240
Speaker 2: also be able to abandon what you're going to do

107
00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,479
Speaker 2: and go huh, this has taken a new turn, right,

108
00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:46,200
Speaker 2: I'm just going to have to go with it. I mean,

109
00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:52,960
Speaker 2: I've had that experience in I remember a particular trial

110
00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:54,760
Speaker 2: which I know we're going to talk about about at

111
00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:58,680
Speaker 2: some point, which is a shaken baby case where something

112
00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,920
Speaker 2: happened completely out of the blue, and you know, I

113
00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:05,280
Speaker 2: just sort of waltzed in and asked random questions not

114
00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:09,760
Speaker 2: knowing the answer and saw what developed. And that's frightening there.

115
00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:14,680
Speaker 1: But part of the job, you said, I might have

116
00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,279
Speaker 1: an understanding of I suppose it's like the interview room.

117
00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:21,240
Speaker 1: And I was taught and I try. I learned from

118
00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:24,000
Speaker 1: people that mentored me that you've got to be flexible

119
00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:26,200
Speaker 1: in your thinking. Like if you're going with a strategy

120
00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:28,719
Speaker 1: for an interview and then it could take a left

121
00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,880
Speaker 1: hand turn that you didn't expect, You've got to think

122
00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:34,960
Speaker 1: on your feet and be flexible in where you take

123
00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:35,640
Speaker 1: the conversation.

124
00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:38,200
Speaker 2: Well, you can miss important stuff if you're stuck to

125
00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:42,240
Speaker 2: a particular line, and if you miss it, it could

126
00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:48,520
Speaker 2: do a really some real damage to finding out the truth.

127
00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:53,680
Speaker 2: And I know that that can sometimes be a flexible concept.

128
00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:57,600
Speaker 2: I suppose, and you know the justice system sadly, isn't

129
00:06:57,600 --> 00:06:59,839
Speaker 2: really about finding out the truth. It's about two sides.

130
00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,599
Speaker 2: It a battle, and you know somebody wins on the day.

131
00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:05,359
Speaker 2: But is that the same as getting to the truth?

132
00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:07,640
Speaker 2: And I think that's the same in police interviews. I

133
00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,840
Speaker 2: mean I spent a fair bit of time training at

134
00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:15,680
Speaker 2: people at DTS Detective Training School, and you know, I'd

135
00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:19,720
Speaker 2: be saying to them, look, just because you believe, you

136
00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,200
Speaker 2: know this person did it or this is how it happened,

137
00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:25,400
Speaker 2: you've got to keep your mind open because you could

138
00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:30,760
Speaker 2: miss something. And that was sometimes hard for people to swallow,

139
00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,160
Speaker 2: because you know, we know he did it or we

140
00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:37,920
Speaker 2: know that this is how it unfolded. And sometimes the

141
00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:40,280
Speaker 2: only way I could make that palatable for them would

142
00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:43,240
Speaker 2: be to say, well, some smart ALEC defense lawyer might

143
00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:45,800
Speaker 2: come up with some other idea and you better be prepared.

144
00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:47,640
Speaker 2: So isn't it better to be able to say in

145
00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:50,360
Speaker 2: the witness box? Yeah, yeah, we thought of that. We

146
00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:52,800
Speaker 2: thought of that, but you know we checked it out

147
00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,200
Speaker 2: and it didn't pan out, rather than oh I didn't

148
00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:59,560
Speaker 2: think of that, because you know, having that sprung on

149
00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:03,200
Speaker 2: you in court probably isn't very pleasant, and it might get.

150
00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,440
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, well, I think from a police officer's point

151
00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:08,200
Speaker 1: of view, and I've seen it. I've probably done it

152
00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:10,600
Speaker 1: myself if you get stuck into a narrative in the

153
00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:13,120
Speaker 1: witness box and you're not flexible in your thinking in

154
00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:17,440
Speaker 1: under cross examination. And I've seen some detectives dig holes

155
00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,360
Speaker 1: for themselves by just sticking to their narrative and not

156
00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:23,600
Speaker 1: you know, you, as a defense barrister could say, well,

157
00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,320
Speaker 1: is it possible such and such could happen, and the

158
00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:29,680
Speaker 1: detective no, well, it is possible, And you've got to

159
00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:32,960
Speaker 1: got to be a little bit considerate of the way

160
00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,200
Speaker 1: that you answer and not lock yourself in and just

161
00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:39,760
Speaker 1: be so stubborn that yeh, you're right, they're wrong. And

162
00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:41,959
Speaker 1: it is a theater the court too. I've got to

163
00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,080
Speaker 1: say that you've got a jury. The jury are forming,

164
00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:46,120
Speaker 1: and I can't wait till we have the chat in

165
00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:50,920
Speaker 1: this in the podcast about your experiences examining juries. But

166
00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,840
Speaker 1: the juries are forming opinions, and they're forming very human

167
00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,640
Speaker 1: opinions about the way the witness is holding themselves, how

168
00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:00,920
Speaker 1: they're responding to the answers. So there's a whole range

169
00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:02,400
Speaker 1: of things that come into the mix, isn't it.

170
00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:04,440
Speaker 2: Oh, well, you lose your credibility. You sit there like

171
00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:08,640
Speaker 2: a buffhead and don't accept something which is obviously a

172
00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,720
Speaker 2: perfectly resent proposition. But you need to take it back

173
00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:15,040
Speaker 2: too and consider those alternatives in the interview process and

174
00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,480
Speaker 2: the investigation process so that you don't end up in

175
00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:21,679
Speaker 2: court going you know, no, that's not possible, when it

176
00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,280
Speaker 2: clearly is, because nothing else that comes out of your

177
00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:25,240
Speaker 2: mouth will be believed.

178
00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:27,920
Speaker 1: Then I like your facial expressions there.

179
00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:32,280
Speaker 2: I used to get into trouble and court from judges.

180
00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:34,800
Speaker 2: They used to tell me to stop pulling faces.

181
00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,760
Speaker 1: Like I'm just I'm picturing being in the witness box

182
00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:42,280
Speaker 1: and they answering the question. I can see the impact

183
00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:44,400
Speaker 1: it would have. I want to ask about. There's a

184
00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:46,640
Speaker 1: lot of cases I want to talk about. I want

185
00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:50,120
Speaker 1: to talk about the person that was charged with murder

186
00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:54,240
Speaker 1: for basically talking in an angry, angry tone to his neighbor.

187
00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:56,280
Speaker 1: Can you just talk us through that case. I think

188
00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,679
Speaker 1: that's an interesting case in it again, it's a lesson

189
00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:00,720
Speaker 1: forever one, isn't it.

190
00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:04,880
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, because you know you think it can't happen

191
00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:06,839
Speaker 2: to me or your friend or your mate, or your

192
00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:10,640
Speaker 2: son or your daughter or whatever. You can find yourself

193
00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,200
Speaker 2: tied up in the criminal justice system and charged with

194
00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:17,200
Speaker 2: the crime. For example, even though you know you didn't

195
00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:19,320
Speaker 2: think it possibly happened to you. It only happens to

196
00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:23,280
Speaker 2: other people. And this particular case was a guy who

197
00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:27,560
Speaker 2: had a a pretty good party at his place, you know,

198
00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:30,240
Speaker 2: barbie out the back and bit of noise and some

199
00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,760
Speaker 2: loud music, and it went on and on and on,

200
00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:38,400
Speaker 2: and the neighbor got very upset about it. Understandably, by

201
00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:41,679
Speaker 2: about four am, the neighbor was pretty unimpressed. I think

202
00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:46,679
Speaker 2: he had worked the next day, and he complained, and

203
00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:49,200
Speaker 2: he called the cops a couple of times, and you know,

204
00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:50,920
Speaker 2: the music will go down the cops or ive and

205
00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,400
Speaker 2: go back up as soon as they left. You may

206
00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,400
Speaker 2: have attended jobs like that back in the far distant past,

207
00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:01,199
Speaker 2: I don't know. And in the end, seven point thirty

208
00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:03,560
Speaker 2: in the morning, it's still going and the neighbor came

209
00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:07,880
Speaker 2: over and you know, had an argument with this guy

210
00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:10,839
Speaker 2: and it came down to it came down to a

211
00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,320
Speaker 2: bit of push and shove. Actually that went both ways.

212
00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:23,840
Speaker 2: And basically after some time of this, you know, argie, bargie,

213
00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,400
Speaker 2: that's those are lawyer words. By the way, I hope

214
00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:27,400
Speaker 2: you can follow.

215
00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:29,400
Speaker 1: Me legal terminology.

216
00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:34,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, the guy had a heart attack, as in, the

217
00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,640
Speaker 2: neighbor had a heart attack. My client, because he became

218
00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:41,840
Speaker 2: my client, found himself charged with murder. How can that

219
00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:46,320
Speaker 2: be murder? How could that be? And the prosecution theory

220
00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:49,360
Speaker 2: was that the stress had caused this guy to have

221
00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:55,560
Speaker 2: a heart attack, and my client was therefore somehow responsible.

222
00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,920
Speaker 2: Now you might sit back and possibly even put your

223
00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,839
Speaker 2: own defense hat on there and think, well, hang on

224
00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:06,160
Speaker 2: a minute, how you know, aren't you supposed to actually

225
00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,480
Speaker 2: mean to kill somebody if you charged with murder? Isn't

226
00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,120
Speaker 2: that sort of basic one?

227
00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,640
Speaker 1: Well, definitely that you need that and the proofs of murder.

228
00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:21,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, but they said their attitude was the other side,

229
00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:26,480
Speaker 2: that he should have known and therefore that becomes a murder.

230
00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,240
Speaker 2: He should have known this could happen. My argument from

231
00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:32,760
Speaker 2: the defense point of view is, firstly, he couldn't have known.

232
00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:35,040
Speaker 2: The guy wasn't walking under the sign in his chest

233
00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:37,680
Speaker 2: saying if you argue with me, I will have a

234
00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:41,120
Speaker 2: heart attack. And what's more than the important thing for

235
00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,080
Speaker 2: me was the medicine aspect of it, and that is,

236
00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:48,200
Speaker 2: did he in fact cause this guy to have a

237
00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,200
Speaker 2: heart attack, or was a guy going to have a

238
00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,640
Speaker 2: heart attack anyway, even if he'd just woken up in

239
00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:55,120
Speaker 2: the morning and just had his wheaties. And I don't

240
00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:57,520
Speaker 2: mean to make light of someone's death, but you know,

241
00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:00,520
Speaker 2: we're in a situation where the stakes are very high,

242
00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,880
Speaker 2: and this chap could be in jail for a very

243
00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,439
Speaker 2: very long time. He's got to be, in a sense

244
00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:13,080
Speaker 2: morally guilty as well. In the end, they called a

245
00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:18,120
Speaker 2: cardiologist and to give evidence to say that my chap

246
00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:23,600
Speaker 2: had mediically, scientifically caused the heart attack. And this cardiologist

247
00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,560
Speaker 2: did give that evidence, and he'd given this written opinion

248
00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:31,720
Speaker 2: which said, no, without doubt, you know, this chap caused

249
00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,000
Speaker 2: the heart attack. And reason he caused it is that

250
00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:39,959
Speaker 2: stress can cause heart attacks. And this guy, the cardiologists

251
00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:44,120
Speaker 2: professor or whatever he was, had cited a whole lot

252
00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:48,160
Speaker 2: of studies. He'd said, look, you know, in New Zealand,

253
00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:50,160
Speaker 2: after the earthquake, a whole lot of people died of

254
00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:54,200
Speaker 2: heart attacks, or after bombings in Iran, a whole lot

255
00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:56,319
Speaker 2: of people died of heart attacks, and that proves that

256
00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:00,280
Speaker 2: stress causes heart attacks. So I started asking him what

257
00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,800
Speaker 2: I thought were pretty obvious questions, like in New Zealand

258
00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:07,360
Speaker 2: after the earthquake, somebody comes in dead and they don't

259
00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:09,480
Speaker 2: have a mark on them. Do they actually do a

260
00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:12,320
Speaker 2: post mortem and check if the heart attack or do

261
00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:14,920
Speaker 2: they just tick the box saying heart attack or technically

262
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:19,040
Speaker 2: myocard you'll infection. I can say the words too, and

263
00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,440
Speaker 2: of course they don't. They're too busy saving the living,

264
00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:24,280
Speaker 2: they're not you know, so it's a ticker box thing.

265
00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:26,200
Speaker 2: Do you actually know? And of course the answer that

266
00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:28,760
Speaker 2: has to be no, we don't know. Well that doesn't

267
00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:30,840
Speaker 2: do a lot of good for those studies, does it.

268
00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:34,360
Speaker 2: But we actually got to a point of complete ridiculousness,

269
00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:38,200
Speaker 2: if there's such a word, because all these studies said, look,

270
00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:41,640
Speaker 2: it looks like stress may or cause heart attacks. You know,

271
00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,920
Speaker 2: we don't know for sure, and we can't do an experiment.

272
00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,520
Speaker 2: We can't take you know, two thousand people, stress them

273
00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:49,320
Speaker 2: all out and find out how many of them die?

274
00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:50,400
Speaker 1: See who dies?

275
00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:55,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's certain ethical problems with doing that. So you know,

276
00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:57,200
Speaker 2: all these studies say, we don't really know, it looks

277
00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:58,840
Speaker 2: like it might. I said, how can you then turn

278
00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:02,480
Speaker 2: around and say, in this specif situation, my client caused

279
00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:06,080
Speaker 2: this specific person to die, particularly because we found out

280
00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:11,000
Speaker 2: he had pinpoint diameters in his arteries, in his heart.

281
00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,560
Speaker 2: He was basically walking time Bob. Anyway, he could have

282
00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:17,200
Speaker 2: died at any point he had undiagnosed coronary artery disease.

283
00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,200
Speaker 2: And this guy says, oh, no, we do know all

284
00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,480
Speaker 2: these people who've written these papers. A line said, what

285
00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:26,080
Speaker 2: this is where you have to abandon the script because

286
00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:27,640
Speaker 2: I had no idea he was going to say that.

287
00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:31,400
Speaker 2: I said, In fact, my next question was, you're not serious.

288
00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:34,200
Speaker 1: This was all in front of the jury. It came

289
00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:36,800
Speaker 1: down to a jury decision your client.

290
00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:39,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they did ac quit him and bluntly, so

291
00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:41,960
Speaker 2: they should have. And I think probably most people would

292
00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:45,120
Speaker 2: agree that really is a bit rough to charge someone

293
00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,040
Speaker 2: with murder. They could have charged him with, you know,

294
00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:52,080
Speaker 2: thumping the guy, or although that could have gone both ways,

295
00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:56,200
Speaker 2: or you know, is there such a crime as public disturbance?

296
00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:58,800
Speaker 2: I don't even know, but they could have charged with

297
00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:00,800
Speaker 2: something else but murder. Get break.

298
00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, the case you as you were talking through that,

299
00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,720
Speaker 1: I remember an early case that I did where some

300
00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:11,120
Speaker 1: young fellas broke into a house and they weren't very

301
00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:13,720
Speaker 1: good crooks. They broke in the house to steal the

302
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,520
Speaker 1: dudes to the house. I was sixteen and seventeen so

303
00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:18,840
Speaker 1: they could sell the house. They hadn't really thought I

304
00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,240
Speaker 1: thought it through. I know, it's an elderly man that

305
00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:24,920
Speaker 1: lived there on his own, breaking the house. We're going

306
00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:26,560
Speaker 1: to steal the dudes to the house, and then we're

307
00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,640
Speaker 1: going to sell the house. Great plan, guys. They broke

308
00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:31,880
Speaker 1: him through a window at night, he woke up, they

309
00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:37,000
Speaker 1: disturbed them, They pushed him, and he died. They panicked,

310
00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,320
Speaker 1: They took his body away, dumped him in a shallow grave.

311
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,400
Speaker 1: It was dug up by dogs. Police called in, so

312
00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:47,880
Speaker 1: you've got the actions after. We charged those guys with murder,

313
00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,760
Speaker 1: but it came down to the medical evidence that he

314
00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:55,000
Speaker 1: was literally a step away from having a heart attack,

315
00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,680
Speaker 1: and that was the post more than he died as

316
00:16:57,680 --> 00:16:59,960
Speaker 1: a result of a heart attack. We never got them

317
00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:03,440
Speaker 1: convicted of murder. It didn't get to get to trial stage.

318
00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:07,840
Speaker 1: It was accepted that unlawful disposal of the body, break

319
00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:11,520
Speaker 1: an enter or assault, that type of thing. But yeah,

320
00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:15,520
Speaker 1: that's a medical evidence. And when you talked about you

321
00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,520
Speaker 1: shouldn't make assumptions or believe you know the true story,

322
00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,320
Speaker 1: Like as a detective hole that there's a sign of entry,

323
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,600
Speaker 1: the house has been rated through, things have been stolen,

324
00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:29,119
Speaker 1: the body's been dumped in a shallow grave. You're thinking murder.

325
00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,520
Speaker 1: But when it all played out and all the evidence

326
00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:33,960
Speaker 1: came out and you look at it, and I wasn't

327
00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:37,760
Speaker 1: disgruntled with that decision to go down that path. I

328
00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:39,879
Speaker 1: thought it was the right decision. They didn't break in

329
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,919
Speaker 1: there with the intent to murder him. They certainly didn't

330
00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,159
Speaker 1: think he would die as a result of them breaking

331
00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:45,800
Speaker 1: into the house.

332
00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:48,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean you've got to take step back

333
00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,280
Speaker 2: and say, in the end, that was probably the right result.

334
00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:53,000
Speaker 2: You know, do them for burglary, do them for disposing

335
00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,000
Speaker 2: of a corpse or whatever it is, and that would

336
00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:58,480
Speaker 2: feel to be about the right result. I mean I

337
00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:00,719
Speaker 2: had one exactly the same way. I was approached by

338
00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:04,119
Speaker 2: a chap something like forty years after his convicted and

339
00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:08,040
Speaker 2: did his time for murder, and he'd broken in when

340
00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:11,720
Speaker 2: he was a young bloke. And again somebody died, and

341
00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:15,320
Speaker 2: this chap died about twenty minutes later of bleeding ulcer.

342
00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:20,560
Speaker 2: And back then the received wisdom was stress causes ulcers,

343
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,440
Speaker 2: but of course we now know it doesn't. In fact,

344
00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:28,280
Speaker 2: there's two Western Australians won the Nobel Prize for finding

345
00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:32,119
Speaker 2: out that, in fact, it's a bacterium called helic Go

346
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,359
Speaker 2: back to pylori. There you go. That's two more big words.

347
00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,919
Speaker 1: You're throwing out the big medical term. So I should

348
00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,560
Speaker 1: have had a dictionary, a medical dictionary here in front

349
00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:43,159
Speaker 1: of me. I won't understand what you're saying.

350
00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:45,520
Speaker 2: Oh, I don't worry. I'll explain it to you. The

351
00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:47,800
Speaker 2: question is where you know I'm telling you lies or not.

352
00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:52,280
Speaker 2: But this guy, no, he died of a bleeding ulcer

353
00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:54,960
Speaker 2: and he was convicted of murder, but he wanted to

354
00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,720
Speaker 2: clear his name. Way way way down the track. He'd

355
00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:03,360
Speaker 2: done his the entire sentence, and he wanted to join

356
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:05,960
Speaker 2: the army. For example, they wouldn't let him join the army.

357
00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:10,080
Speaker 2: I found him some help and we got an affidavit

358
00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:15,120
Speaker 2: from the Nobel Prize winner saying this, and eventually his

359
00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,800
Speaker 2: name was cleared. I didn't see it all the way through.

360
00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,080
Speaker 2: I just didn't have the resources to do it personally.

361
00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:24,800
Speaker 2: But he was looked after and his name was cleared.

362
00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,119
Speaker 2: But interestingly, the forman of the jury actually wrote a

363
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:32,160
Speaker 2: letter later saying, we wish we'd had more medical evidence.

364
00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:36,119
Speaker 2: We understand there's some word about if you like that

365
00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:38,960
Speaker 2: stress doesn't cause ulcers. We would have liked to have

366
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,560
Speaker 2: heard about that, but we didn't have it, so we

367
00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,640
Speaker 2: had to convict on the evidence we had. And that

368
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:46,840
Speaker 2: takes me back to that point I made initially, and

369
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,280
Speaker 2: that is it's a battle, and you don't necessarily as

370
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:52,480
Speaker 2: a juror have the evidence you might have wanted to

371
00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:55,120
Speaker 2: have because each side decides what they're going to dish up.

372
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,399
Speaker 1: Things that's in my career that we assumed that's a

373
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:06,080
Speaker 1: given that like blood splatter patterns, ballistic evidence, like a

374
00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:08,560
Speaker 1: lot of that. Now we're looking at and it's not

375
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,800
Speaker 1: as and exact sciences what we believed at the time

376
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:13,760
Speaker 1: or what science believed at the time.

377
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:18,160
Speaker 2: Well ballistics, does you know if you're talking about angles

378
00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:23,480
Speaker 2: and things, Yeah, that works on physics, and bloodstained pattern

379
00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,720
Speaker 2: analysis or blood splatter as some people want to call it,

380
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,879
Speaker 2: that also abides by the rules of physics. But things

381
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:35,400
Speaker 2: like fingerprints, which were you know, I used to tell

382
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:37,480
Speaker 2: my clients, and I feel really bad about this now.

383
00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:39,280
Speaker 2: I used to say, look, they've got your fingerprints. They've

384
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,520
Speaker 2: got you better plead guilty. You know you're stupid. If

385
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,800
Speaker 2: you don't read my lips, you're four letter word, which

386
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:47,520
Speaker 2: I'd probably better not say. But you know the one

387
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:48,320
Speaker 2: I'm talking about.

388
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:52,280
Speaker 1: As I told you before, I lived over in Western

389
00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:54,119
Speaker 1: Australia for a while. I know it's used as a

390
00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:56,159
Speaker 1: punctuation mark sometimes.

391
00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:58,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I mean when you're communicating with your clients,

392
00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,240
Speaker 2: you've got to be able to commit in their language.

393
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:05,600
Speaker 2: So yeah, But fingerprints, I now think are pretty much

394
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:09,000
Speaker 2: equivalent to the reading of entrails of goats in ancient

395
00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:14,360
Speaker 2: Greece to tell the future someone who's comparing fingerprints. They

396
00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:16,840
Speaker 2: have this method, I mean, don't get me started, or

397
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,479
Speaker 2: do get me started, whatever you want. They have a

398
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:24,879
Speaker 2: method called ACEV. You probably know about it, and it

399
00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,160
Speaker 2: just it's an acronym. It stands for what they do.

400
00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,880
Speaker 2: But they say, if you follow the method, you can't

401
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,360
Speaker 2: make a mistake. Now that is ridiculous. And they say

402
00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,119
Speaker 2: they have a zero percent error rate, And to me,

403
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,919
Speaker 2: that loses all credibility because if you're looking at a

404
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,000
Speaker 2: fingerprint from a crime scene, it's not going to be perfect.

405
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,199
Speaker 2: The baddie. That's another technical word. The baddy won't have

406
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:51,560
Speaker 2: stood there and rolled their fingers on the window carefully

407
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:55,280
Speaker 2: to get perfect fingerprints. It'll be sparched. It'll be open

408
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:59,920
Speaker 2: to interpretation. Interpretation. That's where the human element comes in.

409
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 2: And if you want this to be the person you've

410
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,240
Speaker 2: been told, for example, it is the guy we caught,

411
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,800
Speaker 2: we just need him identify, We need a result. We

412
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:13,199
Speaker 2: need you to match these. You're going to be internally

413
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:17,080
Speaker 2: motivated to match them, and you're going to explain away

414
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,919
Speaker 2: any apparent differences. And I've actually got a transcript of

415
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,160
Speaker 2: a fingerprint Chap who actually said to me, if these

416
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,920
Speaker 2: don't appear to match, I can probably explain it by

417
00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,280
Speaker 2: smudging or an artifact or something. If they don't appear

418
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,120
Speaker 2: to match, is it possible it's actually not the same person.

419
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:39,800
Speaker 1: Hey, that is a concerning comment to make in the

420
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:40,440
Speaker 1: witness box.

421
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 2: If they don't, I can explain it away.

422
00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,679
Speaker 1: Were you involved in that court matter? How long was

423
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:49,800
Speaker 1: that person kept in the witness box after making a

424
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:50,560
Speaker 1: comment like that.

425
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,400
Speaker 2: Well, actually had pretty much said all he wanted to say.

426
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 2: And you know that The really sad thing is that

427
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 2: often these guys are believed anyway because people watch crime

428
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,040
Speaker 2: shows and fingerprints all they've got you, you know, and

429
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:13,439
Speaker 2: he's the expert. And people are not critical enough, be

430
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 2: it prosecutors, be it jurors, they're just not critical enough.

431
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 2: There was a case in the US where the judge

432
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 2: actually didn't let the finger print evidence in because you know,

433
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 2: to be an expert, you've got to vault over a

434
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 2: certain hurdle. You've got to show that you know what

435
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,199
Speaker 2: you're doing. You've got to show that your air of

436
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:37,719
Speaker 2: expertise is reliable, that it's basically worth you know. I mean,

437
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,480
Speaker 2: I've had people try to give iridology evidence where you

438
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 2: can tell what's wrong with people by looking at the

439
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 2: iruses in their eyes, and they've actually got in and

440
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,960
Speaker 2: judges let that in. So yeah, yeah, I know. But

441
00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 2: a judge in the States actually threw this evidence out

442
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 2: and came under an enormous amount of pressure, as in

443
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,879
Speaker 2: finger print evidence came under an enormous amount of pressure

444
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 2: from the system and ended up reversing is ruling because

445
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 2: we can't have that, we can't have fingerprint people not

446
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 2: lad in because after all, they've been allowed to give

447
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 2: evidence from time immemorial, so they must be right.

448
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 1: And I would imagine there's a reluctance there too. I

449
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 1: can see that problems were done because that would open

450
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,400
Speaker 1: up a lot of cases that would have to be revisited,

451
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,360
Speaker 1: and a lot of costs and all sorts of things.

452
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 1: It would come in the play that would come in

453
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:27,120
Speaker 1: the play.

454
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 2: Look subconsciously, I'm sure it does.

455
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, you talk about from a police point of view.

456
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 1: When we're using the experts, if it's a medical expert

457
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:40,120
Speaker 1: or whatever, we're not informed enough to disagree with them. Now,

458
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 1: be the fingerprint expert or forensic science. When DNA came

459
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 1: into we haven't got the skills to dissect we're getting

460
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 1: we're looking for an answer. We present the information that

461
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 1: comes back with an answer, and that's accepted at court.

462
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 2: Well, hey on a minute, why haven't you got the

463
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 2: skills to dissect it? Why can't you ask questions? Why

464
00:24:58,800 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 2: can't you approach it?

465
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:00,199
Speaker 1: Go?

466
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 2: Is this gospel or isn't it? I mean, lawyers have

467
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 2: to learn those skills. If you're prosecuting, if you're defending,

468
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:11,680
Speaker 2: you've got to be able to analyze it. Why can't

469
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 2: the investigators learn those skills?

470
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 1: True? True, But if we're putting ourselves up, we're not

471
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:19,919
Speaker 1: the experts. And if we got into got into the

472
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,159
Speaker 1: witness box and said we're an expert when we're not,

473
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,119
Speaker 1: that's going to cause a problem. So we go to

474
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 1: the experts. I think mistakes are often made. You've said

475
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,120
Speaker 1: with you know, we can make this fingerprint or justify

476
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 1: why this fingerprint's not matching. I think from a policing

477
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 1: point of view, what I tried to do was always

478
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 1: careful with what information was provided to the expert. We

479
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 1: gave all the information so independently they're looking at the evidence.

480
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,640
Speaker 1: But look, it's a tough it's a tough thing. And

481
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 1: that's where the court's not perfect in the weight that's

482
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,680
Speaker 1: placed on people that present themselves as experts.

483
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 2: And don't forget the jurors have to understand this and

484
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 2: could it critically. They're told by the judge, oh, you

485
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 2: don't have to accept the expert evidence. But by golly,

486
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 2: it's a brave duror who says, well, I think, you know,

487
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,199
Speaker 2: this guy's got a head full of rocks, and you know,

488
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,479
Speaker 2: I'm not going to accept what the expert says. So

489
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 2: they carry like an enormous amount of weight. There's a

490
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 2: huge responsibility on them to get.

491
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: It right most definitely, and the.

492
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:23,919
Speaker 2: Jurors have got to be able to follow that instead

493
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 2: of you know, switching off. I mean it also goes

494
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 2: with all sorts of other complicated evidence, like if you've

495
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 2: got a check fraud, for example, where there are three

496
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 2: hundred or three thousand checks, you're going to sit there

497
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 2: as a juror while they go to every single check.

498
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 2: I'll probably showing my age. Actually there's no checks anymore,

499
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 2: aren't they.

500
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 1: A dishonored check? Yeah? I forget what cheeven section that

501
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 1: was in the Crimes Act, But yes, I know what

502
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: you're talking about. That's how detectives, that's how we learned

503
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 1: our trade. To start with you, the person that had

504
00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 1: just come into the detective's office was always the one

505
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 1: that had to chase up the dishonored check. And yeah, yeah,

506
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 1: solve that. But yeah, that's not it's not a current crime,

507
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 1: I'd say, but I understand what cuter fraud? Let's okay,

508
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 1: let's be contemporary. Yeah, yeah, why did you get into law?

509
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 2: This has a bit embarrassing nothing you know noble at all.

510
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 2: I was a single parent, I had a science degree,

511
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 2: and I had what I call her the ten lost

512
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 2: years where basically having children and having a completely messed

513
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 2: up life split up with Yes, I have an X

514
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 2: or two as well.

515
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 1: I'm not sitting here in judgment. Trust me. It happens, it.

516
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 2: Does, doesn't it. Yeah, you make the best decisions you

517
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 2: can And what is it Mary in haste and repent

518
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 2: at leisure. But anyway, that's another podcast too.

519
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,679
Speaker 1: What went wrong with the marriage? It's a long story.

520
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:11,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, But anyway, so I was there with Yeah, I

521
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,439
Speaker 2: broke up when I was pregnant with my fourth child.

522
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 2: So I was there with three children under five and

523
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 2: one not much older than five. What am I going

524
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,360
Speaker 2: to do now? Do I sit on supporting parent benefit

525
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 2: as it then was till the youngest one's eighteen? Or

526
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 2: do I try and do something useful? And it was

527
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 2: back in the era when tertie education was free for

528
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 2: a first degree. But I already had a degree. That's

529
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 2: why I say I had science degree. I had a degree.

530
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 2: So am I going to get funding to learn anything else?

531
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 2: Only if you do law, that's the only second degree.

532
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 2: The government would basically support you through and let you

533
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 2: let you do. I think most of the big people

534
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 2: often did you know arts law or commerce law? Or whatever.

535
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 2: So that's why I did law because it was the

536
00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 2: only one that the government would pay me to do.

537
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 1: It was they or learn Mkarami and who says solicitors

538
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 1: are only motivated by money and.

539
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 2: Plus crime doesn't pay either, So I got into crime

540
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 2: and it doesn't pay for the lawyers.

541
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: Are exactly where'd you grow up your childhood?

542
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 2: Canber, but don't hold that against me.

543
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 1: Explained that he just did. Explain explains a lot. So

544
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: you did your science degree? Is that where you managed

545
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 1: to with the information you got from that? When you

546
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: you've got those experts in the witness boxes, a solicitor

547
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 1: and barrister, Is that where you could match them when

548
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: they were talking?

549
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 2: It helps. It helps a lot. And the thing about

550
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 2: science is that science always admits that it's uncertain, So

551
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 2: you know, with the science attitude, you have to always

552
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 2: be trying to prove yourself wrong. That's that's how science works,

553
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 2: which is a bit different from you know, we know

554
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 2: he did it, so let's gather the evidence to if

555
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 2: he did it. Scientists will never do that, So it

556
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 2: helps to be able to understand that mindset, and to

557
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 2: be quite honest, I think it's a more healthy mindset,

558
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 2: then let's gather the evidence prove he didn't. Let's ignore

559
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 2: or explain away whatever doesn't fit our worldview. So it

560
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 2: helped me be able to deal with the science and

561
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 2: particularly help me know when the wool was being pulled

562
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 2: over my eyes, because just because someone's a scientist doesn't

563
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 2: mean that they're necessary, right, or you motivated by things

564
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 2: other than the truth. So yeah, it did help a lot.

565
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would imagine that under those precious situations in

566
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: those trials, when the scientists or the expert evidence comes

567
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 1: in and talks at the level he or she believes,

568
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 1: no one understands, so they're not going to be questioned,

569
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 1: then you hit them with the hard questions. But like

570
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 1: a scientific approach, I know, doing external studies a degree

571
00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 1: for criminal investigation. That was one of the one of

572
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 1: the things that they promoted, a scientific approach to criminal

573
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: investigations in that you've got to fact check the information

574
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 1: all the line that you're going down. And I was

575
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 1: taught that by good detectives too. You don't just follow

576
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 1: this lead and not explore other options. So it's the

577
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: best practices in the way to approach a criminal investigation

578
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: as well.

579
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 2: If you don't you know, you can cause some serious injustice.

580
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,959
Speaker 2: And it's been all sorts of celebrated cases where someone's

581
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 2: been cleared later because of the blinked approach and the

582
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 2: way I used to when I was doing detective training,

583
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 2: the way as in training detectives, I used to get

584
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 2: it pass because a lot of them would take the

585
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 2: other attitude, no, no, no, we know he did it.

586
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 2: We already know he did it. We've just got to

587
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 2: prove it, and that can lead you down the wrong path.

588
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 2: I used to say to them, look, check this out anyway,

589
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,719
Speaker 2: because you might you know, I didn't say to them,

590
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 2: you might accidentally get it right, but at least you'll

591
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 2: have the answer. And I think i've you know, I've

592
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 2: said that before, and that was the way to sneak

593
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 2: it past the people who were inclined to have a

594
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 2: blanket approach. But also it's one of the few places

595
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 2: the law actually takes a science approach, because if you've

596
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 2: got a situation like a circumstantial case where no one

597
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 2: actually saw the deed happen, and you gather all the

598
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 2: evidence and if the defense I'm saying this now from

599
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 2: a prosecutor's point of view, if the defense comes up

600
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 2: with another explanation for all that evidence that's reasonable. You know,

601
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 2: it's not a little green man from Mars came down

602
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 2: and did it. You know, it's something that's not fanciful.

603
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 2: The judge has to say to the jury, if there's

604
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 2: a reasonal possibility, is there's a reasonable explanation for these

605
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 2: facts other than the guy did it? And I say

606
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 2: guy advisedly, I'll tell you why in a minute, but

607
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 2: other than the guy did it. You have to prefer

608
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 2: that because that's basically called reasonable doubt. So the law

609
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 2: takes the science approached it. And look, the reason I

610
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 2: say guy, and I often call the criminals men is

611
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 2: that far more men are convicted of crimes than women,

612
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 2: which either means men are inherently more evil or worse

613
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 2: people than women, or it means women are smarter and

614
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 2: get away with it a lot more. You can choose

615
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 2: which explanation you prefer.

616
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 1: Was that a question or are you making a statement?

617
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: Because that was my place in the witness box. If

618
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: someone big statement like that, I'll sit there and go

619
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 1: But you haven't asked a question.

620
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that jury will think you're being a little

621
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 2: smart alec then.

622
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 1: And you've got to be delicate, but exploring another hypothesis

623
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 1: for a crime. Some of my I'd say the proudest

624
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 1: moments in the witness box where I really felt I've

625
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: done my job is when am barrister like yourself is gone.

626
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 1: Have you considered this? And as you get more experience,

627
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 1: you let them. You look slightly nervous, yes, and you

628
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 1: do your little roll your eyes and all that, and

629
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 1: then well what did you do? And then well, there

630
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 1: was twenty statements taken in regards to that line of inquiry,

631
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 1: and we came to this conclusion based on the line

632
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 1: of inquiry and the evidence. So you've got to do

633
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 1: that because otherwise it's too easy to exploit the police

634
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 1: case or the prosecution case if you haven't pursued alternative

635
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: possibilities of what happened in the crime.

636
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 2: A good prosecutor will ask you, because the good prosecutor

637
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 2: will consider those possibilities because they know or should know

638
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 2: they're going to be raised, and they will ask you

639
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 2: before court did you look at this? And they'll even

640
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 2: say to you or ought to if it's well before

641
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 2: court and the preparations happening in a timely manner, why

642
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 2: don't you go and check this out because you know

643
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,800
Speaker 2: this needs checking out, and they'll send you off as

644
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 2: a copper to find out the answer to XYZZ if

645
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 2: you haven't. But you know, if you've done your job well,

646
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 2: you will have checked it out already and you'll have

647
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 2: the answers. But yes, you'll take advantage of the theatrical

648
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,399
Speaker 2: aspect of the court room. Let the defense lawyer hang

649
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 2: themselves a little bit first, won't you.

650
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 1: And when the defense lawyer is telling me what a

651
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 1: good experience detective I am, I know that I'm about

652
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: to get belted over the head with something like you're

653
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 1: very experienced, detective. Yes, and you've worked for a very

654
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 1: long time. Yes, and you've had some success. I try

655
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 1: to tone it down as the compliments keep coming, because

656
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 1: I know sooner or later you're going to hit me

657
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: over the head with something, and that's of court. And

658
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 1: I look, I spent a lot of time in the

659
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: witness box, but I got nervous before I got in

660
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 1: the witness box. When I'm in, their preparation was crucial.

661
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 1: And I think people that say that they're not nervous

662
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 1: or when they're going the witness box, this will be fine,

663
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,760
Speaker 1: the couple of times I've let my guard down, haven't

664
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 1: done the preparation. I've got out of the witness box,

665
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,240
Speaker 1: and I look at myself and think, you let yourself

666
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:53,399
Speaker 1: down and the whole case down there where you haven't

667
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 1: done the preparation you need to prepare before you go

668
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 1: in the witness box, don't you.

669
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah. That applies to every player, applies to

670
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,919
Speaker 2: the lawyers too. And you know the minute you think

671
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 2: you know everything is the time you really should stop

672
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 2: doing it.

673
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 1: Can I spoke to yesterday and I've said I could

674
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 1: raise this but with back to your your life and

675
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 1: gives you a perspective on crime because you've been a

676
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 1: victim of crime as well. What sort of do you

677
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 1: care to talk about that or your experiences there and

678
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 1: did you have to go through court based on what

679
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 1: happened to you?

680
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:37,479
Speaker 2: My experience and it's only been I guess, relatively recent

681
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 2: in my life I've been prepared to talk about this.

682
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 2: I've been a victim of crime, yes, more than once,

683
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 2: but in particular, let's call it survivor of domestic violence.

684
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 2: And I mean, you know, relatively serious. I mean hospital type,

685
00:36:55,560 --> 00:37:01,439
Speaker 2: hospital mission type domestic violence and that I think gives

686
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:07,879
Speaker 2: me a perspective that well makes me human. It makes

687
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 2: me understand a victim's perspective. I just don't like that word,

688
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,839
Speaker 2: but it makes me understand a victim's perspective. Also makes

689
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 2: me understand from some of my clients as a defense

690
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 2: lawyer that there, but for the grace of God, go

691
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:25,319
Speaker 2: I because you know, you can look at certain well.

692
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 2: I can look at certain decisions I've made or parts

693
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,800
Speaker 2: I've taken, where, for example, I could have turned to

694
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,800
Speaker 2: drugs or alcohol and could have ended up committing crimes.

695
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 2: You know, I'm one bad decision away from being a crook.

696
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,800
Speaker 2: But going back to the domestic violence thing, it certainly

697
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 2: taught me an awful lot about life. And I guess

698
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 2: in a way it's when I was eventually willing to

699
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 2: talk about it. I think it helped a lot of

700
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,319
Speaker 2: people who heard about it because they can look at

701
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 2: me and go, she looks like a tough lawyer, and

702
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 2: she looks like a successful woman, and you know she

703
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,320
Speaker 2: would not. I just have clients sit in front of

704
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 2: me saying you wouldn't understand because you're a lawyer. It's like, well,

705
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 2: actually I do. I don't necessarily say that, but I

706
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 2: do understand. I do get it. I think it's a

707
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 2: hell of a good base to be coming from. But

708
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 2: I wouldn't wish to do on anybody either. Did I

709
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 2: have to go in the witness box, No I didn't.

710
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 2: I have given evidence in court more than once, but

711
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:29,479
Speaker 2: back in those days I rang police more than once.

712
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 2: And you probably won't like hearing this, but it was

713
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 2: basically that she was it's only a domestic you know,

714
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:38,320
Speaker 2: we're not going to put resources into this. She'll probably

715
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 2: change her mind and not be willing to give evidence

716
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 2: later on. Anyway, that was the attitude.

717
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I look at it. I don't mind hearing that

718
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 1: because we've got to reflect on that attitude. And yeah,

719
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:50,800
Speaker 1: the problems I know here in New South Wales, I

720
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 1: think it's across the country with domestic violence and the

721
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 1: shocking end results where at least who partner's being murdered.

722
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 1: But yeah, we just it was society. We didn't. Yeah,

723
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 1: it was society's values as much as the police. Police

724
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:10,240
Speaker 1: were representing society's values. And there's not a police officer

725
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 1: I know that one that has genuine empathy and feelings

726
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,319
Speaker 1: for victims. We don't look back at those times when

727
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 1: we're all in uniform, where you go to a domestic

728
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 1: and you knock on the door, is everything right? And

729
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,359
Speaker 1: the man that answered the door and aggressively, yeah, there's

730
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,760
Speaker 1: no problems here, and we just look around the corner

731
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 1: and the partner would be seeing there. No, it's all fine,

732
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 1: it's all fine, he won't there's nothing to worry about,

733
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 1: and you go away knowing it's going to happen. But

734
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 1: that was the accepted practice, and I know here in

735
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 1: New South Wales we've changed, and other states where I'm

736
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,839
Speaker 1: speaking to police, they have become very much aware of it.

737
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,279
Speaker 1: It was something that we really had to get our

738
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:55,439
Speaker 1: act together on coercive controls. It's coming in a few

739
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 1: states here, and I think that's a good thing, and

740
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 1: if police learn to use it properly, I think it'll

741
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:02,439
Speaker 1: be a very powerful tool.

742
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,400
Speaker 2: But from a prosecution perspective, how are you're going to

743
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:09,799
Speaker 2: prove coersive control. It's a wrong thing, and it's a

744
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 2: bad thing, and it's something that I think should be

745
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 2: a crime, But how on earth are you going to

746
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 2: practically prove that.

747
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 1: I've spoken to a lot of people who have advocated

748
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 1: for it coming in and the legislation changes. And I

749
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 1: think that's why I preface it with educating police that

750
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 1: it's going to be like an investigation. Now that the

751
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 1: charge is being created, we're going to learn how to

752
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 1: use it, to use it appropriately. What I say from

753
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 1: a police officer's point of view, a former police officer's

754
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 1: point of view, is that we would turn up to

755
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: a domestic situation and we're looking at is there a

756
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 1: physical assault. If there's not a physical assault, but we're

757
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:51,360
Speaker 1: looking at the person that's clearly terrified for whatever reason,

758
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 1: or under the control of this domineering person, and we

759
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,760
Speaker 1: had no recourse on that. You know, we can okay,

760
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 1: we'll just settle it down coercive control. At least you

761
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 1: can start following up some lines of inquiry and I'll

762
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 1: be interested to see how it plays out when they

763
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 1: start charging people with it the news in and in

764
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:09,760
Speaker 1: the courts.

765
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:11,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, me too. And look, going back to what you're

766
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:16,240
Speaker 2: saying earlier about it, it's a thing about the attitude

767
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:20,800
Speaker 2: of society. Yeah. Back when I was, you know, dealing

768
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 2: with that, I remember ring up a priest in the

769
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:26,800
Speaker 2: middle of the night, you know, because I just needed

770
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:30,360
Speaker 2: some help somewhere from somebody and he told me off,

771
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:32,319
Speaker 2: you know, how dare you ring me in the middle

772
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 2: of the night. And that was sort of the level

773
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 2: of empathy that society gave me there where I was

774
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 2: living in a country area at the time, there were

775
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 2: no women's shelters. It was nowhere I could go. So,

776
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 2: you know, society as a whole is changing and changing,

777
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 2: I've got to say for the better in areas like

778
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 2: that anyway.

779
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so. I think so too. It's definitely

780
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 1: definitely changing. You talked about the sliding door moment that

781
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:00,959
Speaker 1: you could have gone there anyway when life wasn't going

782
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 1: too good. You feel in the pressure and you looked

783
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 1: at people that no doubt you've represented, or even people

784
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 1: that you've prosecuted, that life could take a twist turn

785
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 1: over your career, you've seen many people that fall and

786
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,319
Speaker 1: foul of the law and criminals, and you would have

787
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 1: seen the worst, and you would have seen people that

788
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 1: have just made a genuine mistake, good people. What's your

789
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:24,800
Speaker 1: sense of it? What in your mind makes a criminal?

790
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:30,360
Speaker 2: Look? This is pure amateur psychology from me, and I

791
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:34,279
Speaker 2: got no idea whether you know I'm right or not.

792
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 2: But I think there's like two types. I mean, let's

793
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,399
Speaker 2: look at murderers as you have. I think, honestly think

794
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 2: there are two breeds of murderers. There are the psychopathic

795
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:49,279
Speaker 2: killers who kill for the sake of the thrill. They're

796
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:53,280
Speaker 2: a particular type of murderer. And then there's the murderer

797
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 2: who and again I'm we're back to the relationship situation

798
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 2: where it's what used to be called a crime of passion.

799
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 2: I remember a particular client who he was breaking up

800
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:13,800
Speaker 2: with his wife. You know, everything was very fraud and

801
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 2: very precious, and she had a boyfriend. And he never

802
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 2: had so much as a parking ticket in his life.

803
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 2: You know, oh, maybe he had a parking ticket, you

804
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 2: know what I mean. He's basically a good guy. He

805
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 2: was working, he you know, in his probably mid forties

806
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 2: or something, and you know, contribute a lot to society.

807
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 2: But he just lost the plot when you know, she

808
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,440
Speaker 2: took up with a boyfriend and ended up killing both

809
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 2: her and the boyfriend. It was horrible crime scene because

810
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 2: they had I think white shagpile carpet and there was

811
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 2: lots of blood. But anyway, oh, the old hand next

812
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:56,439
Speaker 2: to the wall phone, the bloodied handprints smudge down the wall,

813
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 2: and we're not doing TV show, so I'll sort of

814
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 2: stop that imagery now. But the point being, he's that

815
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 2: other type of murderer in my view. So in answer

816
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 2: the question what makes the criminals, sometimes, I think circumstance

817
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 2: means that someone will take one bad decision, which is

818
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 2: what I was talking about when I said I could

819
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 2: be a criminal quite easily, and it just sets you

820
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 2: on that path or a bad decision, for example, to

821
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 2: take drugs that are offered to you, and the next

822
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 2: thing you know, you're hooked all those sorts of things.

823
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 2: And then there's a person who's just really evil. And

824
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:32,760
Speaker 2: the weird thing about murder is those two were treated

825
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 2: the same in the prison system, and this particular kiind

826
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 2: of mine who was convicted ended up being locked up

827
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 2: with an evil serial killer and became mates with him. Now,

828
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:45,760
Speaker 2: you tell me how the prison system is actually doing

829
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:50,359
Speaker 2: some rehabilitative good there when you lock up because they've

830
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,919
Speaker 2: both been convicted of murder. So that's a very long

831
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:54,719
Speaker 2: answer to what.

832
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 1: You're right. Because people often often say to me, like

833
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 1: every every been a homicide detective or anyone that's committed

834
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 1: a murder, should be bringing the death penalty, lock them

835
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 1: away for life, do this, do that. I've put away

836
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 1: some people that have been charged and convicted of murder,

837
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 1: but they've made mistakes. Like when I say mistakes, it's

838
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 1: probably diminishing it. It's a big mistake if you're taking

839
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:25,760
Speaker 1: someone's life, but quite often it was a fit of rage.

840
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 1: It wasn't their intent. And I'm not saying they're a

841
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 1: bad person per se. I'm saying what they've done was

842
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 1: horrific in whatever set of circumstances have brought them there.

843
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:39,360
Speaker 1: That doesn't make them inherently a bad person.

844
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah, Yeah, we're sitting here, you know, you

845
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 2: realize what we're doing. We're actually sitting here saying murders

846
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:47,840
Speaker 2: aren't necessarily bad.

847
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, that'll be good, will be on social media, murder

848
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,800
Speaker 1: is a fine, we'll balance it out. But then there's

849
00:45:56,840 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 1: a really, really bad bad murderers. And I know what

850
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:03,359
Speaker 1: you're talking about with the prison system, and I want

851
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 1: to talk about that a little bit later in the podcast,

852
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 1: about the way prisons are approached, because I yeah, not

853
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 1: a cop now, but I think it's better to prevent

854
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 1: crime than to arrest people after the event. And I

855
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 1: think the best way to do that for the people

856
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:22,879
Speaker 1: that we got in prison is make sure that they

857
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:26,319
Speaker 1: come out, if possible, in a better place to fit

858
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 1: in to society than just bring them out there like

859
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 1: cage animals and let them loose in society. Again, I

860
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 1: really think we can do some good.

861
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:37,759
Speaker 2: There, having been to a university for crime in the

862
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 2: interim as in prison, which is a very good place

863
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 2: to learn how to do a better burglary, for example,

864
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 2: or be less likely you get caught next time. But

865
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 2: that's if you're a career criminal. And again not so

866
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 2: much the murder situation. And you know who we've forgot before,

867
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 2: I forget again, we forgot the insane murderers. Insanity is

868
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 2: another thing that does happen mental health, Yeah, the mental

869
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 2: health side of things. But then normally those people, if

870
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:11,760
Speaker 2: the system works properly, will not be convicted of murder.

871
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 2: They'll be found insane and they'll actually be put in

872
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 2: a psychic psychiatric institution rather than a prison. That's if

873
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:22,000
Speaker 2: the system works. And that's a big if. Of course.

874
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 1: Baby deaths, shaken baby the type of scenario I talk

875
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:33,400
Speaker 1: about here, and I always found these hardest homicides to

876
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:36,399
Speaker 1: investigate for a whole range of reasons where you get

877
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 1: called to a home because there's a young infant that's

878
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:46,319
Speaker 1: died in the place, and yeah, you look at it.

879
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 1: You've got to treat it. There's an investigation because you've

880
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:51,799
Speaker 1: got to try and find out how this baby, this

881
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:58,320
Speaker 1: infant has died. But it's a difficult investigation to gather

882
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 1: the evidence against because of people that invariably it's the

883
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 1: parents that have discovered their child deceased. You've got to

884
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:09,439
Speaker 1: look at them as potential suspects. You've got to ask

885
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 1: the hard questions, and you've got to do the investigation

886
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 1: that gets to court. Have you had a lot of

887
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:17,840
Speaker 1: experience in matters like that.

888
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've had some significant I mean, I guess more

889
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:24,879
Speaker 2: experience than I'd want to have because it's in particular

890
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:29,959
Speaker 2: with babies. It's an emotional thing and it's a hard

891
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 2: job to do, both from investigating and defending. You know

892
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 2: how emotional it can be. Yeah, you always have to,

893
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 2: from an investigative point of view, treat the last person

894
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:46,879
Speaker 2: to see the deceased as a potential suspect. I've had

895
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 2: that in situations where, for example, the father's come home

896
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 2: to find his daughter deceased, clearly murdered, and he's immediately

897
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:03,800
Speaker 2: treated a suspect and has to be initially, So he's

898
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 2: both grieving the death of his daughter and being treated

899
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:11,240
Speaker 2: as a potential perpetrator. A husband coming home to find

900
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 2: you all, coming to the wife's place of work, for example,

901
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:17,360
Speaker 2: and finding her deceased. He's treated as a suspect and

902
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,719
Speaker 2: he has to be. You can't. You can't argue with that.

903
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 2: As a matter of logic, he has to be. But

904
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 2: by golly, can you imagine the experience of that person

905
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:31,359
Speaker 2: having to be treated as a potential murderer. But yeah,

906
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 2: the baby death, so particularly the shaken baby, is a

907
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:35,839
Speaker 2: really big deal.

908
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 1: Still is Have you defended or prosecuted matters like that

909
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:40,800
Speaker 1: in the courts?

910
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 2: I've defended matters like that. My prosecuting's mainly been restricted

911
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:53,080
Speaker 2: to police prosecuting, which means the lower courts for the prosecuting.

912
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:56,359
Speaker 2: There's another story in that too, about why I didn't

913
00:49:56,360 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 2: do the more serious ones in it. Well, I'd be defamatory,

914
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 2: so I'm not going to go there. You know, I

915
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:05,800
Speaker 2: like it when the cops come out of court and

916
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:07,600
Speaker 2: shake my hands. So mate, if I'm ever in trouble,

917
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:11,239
Speaker 2: I'm coming to you. That's what I like. But look,

918
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 2: going back to the there is one particular case that's

919
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:19,879
Speaker 2: stuck with me forever and always will And even now

920
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:22,800
Speaker 2: I'm listening to a podcast, not yours. But it's okay,

921
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 2: I've listened to all the yours.

922
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was just going to clarify that. That's you're

923
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 1: just waiting for the next one to drop a ye,

924
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 1: catch kills. That's okay. You have to listen to others.

925
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:35,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I am faithful, so it's good. Let's

926
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 2: not go there anyhow. Anyhow, Yeah, I was listening to

927
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:47,799
Speaker 2: a podcast. And this topic is still like up for

928
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:49,919
Speaker 2: debate and has been for years and years and years.

929
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 2: It used to be that doctors are taught in medical

930
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 2: school during say a particular election, that's probably the extent

931
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 2: of their training. That if if you have a child,

932
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:05,920
Speaker 2: a baby present with what they call a triad of symptoms,

933
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 2: and that's retinal hemorrhaging as in bleeding in the back

934
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:16,840
Speaker 2: of the eyeball, subdural hematoma that means bleeding under the

935
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:22,240
Speaker 2: lining of the brain or bleeding on it out surface

936
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 2: of the brain, if you like, and basically brain swelling.

937
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:32,360
Speaker 2: That that was had to be non accidental injury. It

938
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 2: had to be baby shaking now, and they would go

939
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 2: into court, like a forensic pathologist will go into court

940
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:47,280
Speaker 2: and testify this child has been shaken, a whole array

941
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 2: I was going to say, gang, that's probably not the

942
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 2: right word. A whole array of experts. An ophthalmologist will

943
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 2: testify that there's this particular pattern of retinal hemorrhaging that

944
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 2: means it's shaken baby. The forensic neuropathologist will testify that

945
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:13,440
Speaker 2: there are injuries within the brain which show that force

946
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:15,959
Speaker 2: has been applied in a certain way. So they'll all

947
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:19,439
Speaker 2: get up there, and then the forensic pathologists will say,

948
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:23,240
Speaker 2: and yeah, these three symptoms mean the child's being shaken.

949
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:26,400
Speaker 2: And they would routinely give evidence, for example, that the

950
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:30,320
Speaker 2: force used would be the equivalent to a sixty kilometer

951
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:33,360
Speaker 2: an our car accident, or throwing the child from a

952
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:38,799
Speaker 2: second story window. Then someone started asking questions. It turns out,

953
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 2: for example, that no human being can actually exert that

954
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:45,720
Speaker 2: sort of force of a sixty kilometer in our car accident.

955
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 2: They've been testifying because it's received wisdom, because what they

956
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:52,440
Speaker 2: are taught in medical school, and it's not necessarily true. Now,

957
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:55,320
Speaker 2: what you end up with is two sets of experts,

958
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 2: some who passionately believe that this has to be that

959
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 2: the show deliberately shaken, and some who equally passionately believe

960
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:06,880
Speaker 2: that sometimes this can occur by accident. Then you've got

961
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:09,920
Speaker 2: the investigator saying, how do we determine which it was?

962
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:12,720
Speaker 2: How do we know who to charge? Do we let

963
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:17,080
Speaker 2: all the child killers go because the science is in

964
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:21,560
Speaker 2: a state of debate, or you know, we can't do that.

965
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 2: We can't let child killers go free. But how do

966
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:27,520
Speaker 2: we know which is which? We have to rely on

967
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:30,680
Speaker 2: these experts, and the experts can't agree. And I've been

968
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:32,760
Speaker 2: at conferences, like I was a member of the American

969
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 2: Academy of Forensic Sciences and they have lectures about this

970
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 2: sort of thing, and you get two sets of doctors

971
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 2: becoming extremely passionate and calling each other, you know, whores

972
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:54,960
Speaker 2: and sluts. And I've seen it happen because they're wedded

973
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:57,480
Speaker 2: to a particular idea. And guess what, They're not being

974
00:53:57,520 --> 00:53:58,880
Speaker 2: objective anyway.

975
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:01,960
Speaker 1: Where it becomes problematic, isn't it?

976
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:04,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, Because experts are supposed to be objective aren't they.

977
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 2: But they think they are being objective, are they? Aren't they?

978
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:14,919
Speaker 1: It's the difficult one, and you have identified the hard

979
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:17,239
Speaker 1: part of investigating it. And yeah, if you put your

980
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:19,319
Speaker 1: hand up as a homicide detective, you've got to go

981
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 1: in there and aresos hard questions and you find out, well,

982
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:27,600
Speaker 1: who was a child last with that type of thing,

983
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:33,040
Speaker 1: who had access to the child. But yeah, they're difficult investigations.

984
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 1: And you talk about the science and the medical experts

985
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:39,680
Speaker 1: and that, and I know there was people that were

986
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:41,840
Speaker 1: very much in the camp, oh, this is definitely a

987
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:45,759
Speaker 1: shaken baby syndrome. And it was demonstrated how hard the

988
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:48,920
Speaker 1: baby would have to be shaken as shaken, and it

989
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 1: was extreme. And then there were others, well that might

990
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:53,800
Speaker 1: not be the reason.

991
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 2: So yeah, is this child? Has this child been ill?

992
00:54:56,880 --> 00:54:58,840
Speaker 2: Has this child? For example, and the one I was

993
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:01,920
Speaker 2: involved in, we found out that after three days in hospital,

994
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:04,959
Speaker 2: the child had something called the coagulopity, In other words,

995
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:08,440
Speaker 2: its blood wasn't clotting properly. And when you think that

996
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:11,080
Speaker 2: two of these signs are bleeding signs, two of those three,

997
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:16,560
Speaker 2: you know, receive wisdom. Try it of symptoms, what significance

998
00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:19,520
Speaker 2: did the fact that the child had a clotting problem

999
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 2: have But they didn't do the test when the child

1000
00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:26,799
Speaker 2: was admitted to hospital. They did it after child had

1001
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,360
Speaker 2: been in hospital for three days. Does that show the

1002
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:31,920
Speaker 2: child had a clotting disorder at the time of mission

1003
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:36,440
Speaker 2: to hospital? Will never know? And I asked the particular doctor, well,

1004
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 2: could this test have been done when the child was admitted? Yes,

1005
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:41,480
Speaker 2: why wasn't it done? The doctor actually said, with a

1006
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 2: straight face, Well, our jobs to gather prosecution evidence, not

1007
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 2: defense evidence.

1008
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. You identifying a lot of problems in the in

1009
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:55,719
Speaker 1: the so called justice system. That. Yeah, it's not an

1010
00:55:55,760 --> 00:55:58,719
Speaker 1: exact science. There's problems left, right and center in that

1011
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:01,680
Speaker 1: one that you're referring to. How did that matter play out?

1012
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:09,239
Speaker 2: The father was acquitted And this is one where every

1013
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:12,720
Speaker 2: time I think about it, I get a really sick

1014
00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:18,080
Speaker 2: feeling in my gut because, and I'm so not big

1015
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:21,799
Speaker 2: noting myself, but if I hadn't known enough to know

1016
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 2: there were questions to be asked, and hadn't known what

1017
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 2: questions to ask, and I hadn't known how to know

1018
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:34,279
Speaker 2: how to investigate it from a defense perspective, I think

1019
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:38,080
Speaker 2: this guy would have been convicted without doubt, and I

1020
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:40,960
Speaker 2: just wonder to myself how many other people are being

1021
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:46,359
Speaker 2: convicted out there like that because someone hasn't wrapped their

1022
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 2: head around the science. I reckon all lawyers should be

1023
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:53,880
Speaker 2: taught science, particularly in these days of forensic science. I

1024
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 2: reckon all investigators should be taught forensic science. Some of

1025
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:02,359
Speaker 2: my most awarding teaching times have been when I've been

1026
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:06,640
Speaker 2: teaching lawyers and police about science, because they've got to

1027
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:09,520
Speaker 2: wrap the head around not the actual science, you know.

1028
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:17,360
Speaker 2: I mean, I had to come up to speed on neuropathology, radiology, hematology, ophthalmology,

1029
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:24,760
Speaker 2: forensic pathology, toxicology, you name it. I had to get

1030
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:26,640
Speaker 2: my head around in ology and I didn't know any

1031
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:30,320
Speaker 2: of those ologies. But you've got to know how to

1032
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 2: learn it, or how to learn enough to at least

1033
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:39,880
Speaker 2: ask the right questions. So, yeah, I think I finally

1034
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:42,960
Speaker 2: got myself off track and need you to bring me

1035
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:43,520
Speaker 2: back now.

1036
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:48,520
Speaker 1: No, I'm fascinated because you're opening up many, so many

1037
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:52,680
Speaker 1: questions about as you're talking. It makes me reflect on

1038
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:55,960
Speaker 1: the cases that I've seen before the courts and been

1039
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:58,160
Speaker 1: involved in murder trials where it comes down to the

1040
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:03,120
Speaker 1: medical evidence and you know the legal side of things.

1041
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:05,240
Speaker 1: They're trying to get their heads around the medical evidence

1042
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:09,520
Speaker 1: because quite often a murder trial is based yeah, not solely,

1043
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:13,800
Speaker 1: but relies very heavily on the medical evidence. And then

1044
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:17,080
Speaker 1: I've had an opportunity to at least study, speak to

1045
00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:19,760
Speaker 1: the people that have provided the reports, and read the

1046
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:23,160
Speaker 1: reports in details. And then I look at the jurist

1047
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:27,760
Speaker 1: city there thinking how are they taking this in? And Yeah,

1048
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:32,000
Speaker 1: I'm watching people that have got the skill set, the barrasses,

1049
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:36,560
Speaker 1: the medical medical people dissecting the type of thing that

1050
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 1: you're talking about. And I'm looking at durors that we

1051
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:41,280
Speaker 1: don't know anything about their background. They could have no

1052
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:43,640
Speaker 1: knowledge in this field, and they're trying to take that

1053
00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:47,040
Speaker 1: all in. You left me in control. I'm going to

1054
00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:50,440
Speaker 1: make that a nice segue to bring Part one to

1055
00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:53,760
Speaker 1: a conclusion. When we get back for part two, I

1056
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:57,280
Speaker 1: want to talk about the case that when you turned

1057
00:58:57,320 --> 00:58:59,800
Speaker 1: up at court you thought it was unwinnable to give

1058
00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:02,280
Speaker 1: you a heads up on that that was defending someone

1059
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:04,400
Speaker 1: that was in a fight with someone that the only

1060
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 1: two people in the room and the person was stabbed

1061
00:59:07,240 --> 00:59:10,400
Speaker 1: in the back. I'll let you explain that in part two.

1062
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:13,400
Speaker 1: You told me not to ask the question, but I'm

1063
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:15,560
Speaker 1: stupid and I'm going to ask the question about what

1064
00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:18,640
Speaker 1: happened to the what happened at the police Christmas party

1065
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:22,800
Speaker 1: in the eighties. So there might be a lot of yeah,

1066
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:25,320
Speaker 1: I'm not sure, but yeah, don't ask the question you

1067
00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:26,200
Speaker 1: don't know the answer to.

1068
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:28,080
Speaker 2: They say, you know the answer to that one.

1069
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:31,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've got a pretty good idea. But I think

1070
00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:33,600
Speaker 1: our listeners would like to like to get an insight

1071
00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:36,880
Speaker 1: into that, and let's really break down the jury system

1072
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:39,880
Speaker 1: because you were given a rare opportunity, weren't you, as

1073
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:42,240
Speaker 1: a part of an academic study, to have access to

1074
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:44,080
Speaker 1: jurors what was going through their minds.

1075
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:48,640
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, I interview real jurors after real trials, which

1076
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:53,720
Speaker 2: is in Australia, in our justice system, pretty much unheard

1077
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:53,960
Speaker 2: of it.

1078
00:59:54,680 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 1: I think people will be surprised and shocked by some

1079
00:59:57,320 --> 00:59:59,400
Speaker 1: of the things you're going to say there. So we'll

1080
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:01,840
Speaker 1: come back for our part two and just work out

1081
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:06,560
Speaker 1: what parts you're going to describe about the police Christmas Party. Okay,

1082
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:08,520
Speaker 1: stop loving, Okay,