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Speaker 1: Every boom in history had a charismatic figure selling a

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Speaker 1: story nobody could resist. Alan Coler has been watching Australia's

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Speaker 1: economy for over fifty years, from the Poseidon mining boom

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Speaker 1: to the GFC and the rise of carry packer are

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Speaker 1: now el or Musk. He told me today what those

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Speaker 1: events had in common and why governments over decades have

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Speaker 1: failed to solve the housing market. He hosts That's Business

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Speaker 1: on the ABC Daily Feed. Alan Coler, Welcome to straight Talk.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Mark. Great to be here.

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Speaker 1: Could we go back to a young Alan Coler? What

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Speaker 1: was your role when you started thinking about or we're listening

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Speaker 1: and reading about Poseidon, what was your role in the

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Speaker 1: Australian well.

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Speaker 2: I started in nineteen seventy, which happened to be when

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Speaker 2: Poseidon was at its peak, and I think from memory

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Speaker 2: it was two hundred and thirty five dollars a share

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Speaker 2: per share, wow, And it was gone from like eighteen

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Speaker 2: cents or something not long before, like a year before.

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Speaker 2: So it was the nickel boom nineteen sixty nine Western mining,

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Speaker 2: and nickel was obviously the metals used in stainless steel,

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Speaker 2: so it was kind of it was a new thing

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Speaker 2: and it was really exciting, and everyone's excited about nickel,

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Speaker 2: and Poseidon announced that it had found a lot of

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Speaker 2: nickel at Windhara in Western Australia. So it chares took

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Speaker 2: off and it was kind of I suppose you'd call

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Speaker 2: it now a meme stock or something. It was crazy,

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Speaker 2: you know. And so I started at The Australian as

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Speaker 2: a copy boy.

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Speaker 1: What is that? What is the copy boy?

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Speaker 2: I did there? I made the coffee, I did the filing.

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Speaker 2: You know, I wasn't a journalist. I was a copy

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Speaker 2: boy and I took the guys. There was a finance

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Speaker 2: I was the copy boy attached to the finance desk

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Speaker 2: and there were five journos sitting around this desk. The

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Speaker 2: boss was Brian Frith. I do remember remember Brian. He

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Speaker 2: was the Melbourne Finance editor. And I took their dry cleaning.

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Speaker 2: So I was, you know, I was the kid. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I was still seventeen when I started.

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Speaker 1: Were you paying attention of what was going beside them?

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Speaker 1: But well did get you a curiosity.

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Speaker 2: I did notice that a few of the guys were

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Speaker 2: quite rich.

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Speaker 1: The journalist or the journals.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, so they were, you know, I think

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Speaker 2: one of them had a Rolls Royce whoa. They were

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Speaker 2: making some money. So I was a copy boy for

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Speaker 2: six months and then I got a cadet chip as

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Speaker 2: a journalist. And my job as a cadet was to

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Speaker 2: go to the Stock Exchange, which was in Colin Street.

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Speaker 1: There was a floor in those days you could actually

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Speaker 1: physically stand in.

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Speaker 2: That's right and so, and there was a press gallery

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Speaker 2: above the floor, and all the brokers were in the

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Speaker 2: floor and they were shouting at the chalkies who were

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Speaker 2: on a sort of a platform where they wrote the

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Speaker 2: prices of the stocks in chalk on the on the blackboard,

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Speaker 2: and the brokers would call out their bids and offers,

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Speaker 2: and the chalk is had listened to them and write

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Speaker 2: it up and the broker number would be put against

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Speaker 2: the price. And so if you want, if a broker

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Speaker 2: wanted to do a deal, he'd go to the'd find

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Speaker 2: the broker whose number it was, and they would do

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Speaker 2: the deal.

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Speaker 1: So that would be the by sell, so that the

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Speaker 1: buying broker go and see the selling broker correct based

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Speaker 1: on the numbers up on the blackboard. That's at the

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Speaker 1: Stock exchanged. The floor the floor in exchange, and pretty

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Speaker 1: hectic stuff.

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Speaker 2: In those days, it was mad. Yeah, it was noisy, mad.

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Speaker 1: And as a press gallery cadet, what were you thinking

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Speaker 1: to yourself?

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Speaker 2: Oh, thinking this is amazing, exciting. It was exciting and interesting,

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Speaker 2: and I kind of, I suppose I kind of often

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Speaker 2: look back on it and think that I I learned

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Speaker 2: about the foundations of capitalism, how works actually you know,

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Speaker 2: the markets? And so it was good. It was actually

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Speaker 2: a terrific grounding him. Anyways, Yeah, to see how it works.

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Speaker 2: And so these days, you know, as a as a

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Speaker 2: young journalist in finance world, you don't really get that.

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Speaker 2: You sort of it's all pixels on a screen, and

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Speaker 2: you know, you don't sort of you don't get the

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Speaker 2: sense of the way that a stock market is a

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Speaker 2: constant auction. You know, as you do seeing the people

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Speaker 2: bidding on the floor in what is basically a constant auction.

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Speaker 1: Do you see any patterns from back then that would

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Speaker 1: inform you today of when you should be careful? What

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Speaker 1: are the patterns around the stock market? For example, the.

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Speaker 2: Cliche is when the when the shoeshine person is tipping stocks,

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Speaker 2: be careful. That's kind of and when everyone's talking about it,

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Speaker 2: when everyone's getting excited. That's the time too. You know.

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Speaker 2: Warren Buffett says, when everyone else's grew, he be fearful,

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Speaker 2: and when everyone else is fearful, will be greedy.

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Speaker 1: Account of may that's so you go against the market.

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Speaker 2: Kind of yeah, of course. But the trouble, the trouble

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Speaker 2: with that is that it usually takes longer than you

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Speaker 2: think it's going to.

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Speaker 1: Take, either the crash or the increase one or the other.

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Speaker 2: And you talk about the nineteen eighty seven crash, which

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Speaker 2: obviously I was around for. I was actually in nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty seven. I was running the Financial Review, and I

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Speaker 2: remember in nineteen eighty six people were saying that the

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Speaker 2: stock the stock market is irrationally insuberant. In fact, Alan

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Speaker 2: Greenspan said it.

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Speaker 1: Was Alan Greenspan being the Federal Reserve, the head of

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Speaker 1: the Federal Reserve in the US, and so.

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Speaker 2: He but others, you know, like John Spelvins, who was

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Speaker 2: a big entrepreneur at the time, was in nine eighty

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Speaker 2: six saying that this is market's gone and it's going

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Speaker 2: to crash. It's you know, it's heading for fall. But

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Speaker 2: in fact, that was a year before the crash, and

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Speaker 2: in the in that year the stock market doubled, you know,

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Speaker 2: so it sort of beyond so it doubled again after

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Speaker 2: everyone said it was going to crash. So the habit

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Speaker 2: of the market is that it usually takes longer than

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Speaker 2: you think and goes further than you think it's going

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Speaker 2: to go before it crazes.

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Speaker 1: Would you say that that exuberan stimulation to real estate

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Speaker 1: market same as share market existed one year ago and

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Speaker 1: we could have seen this happening.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Probably. The property market's different to the stock market

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Speaker 2: because with the stock market, the prices are published every

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Speaker 2: day and now they're published minute by minute, whereas the

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Speaker 2: you know, the property market you get once a month.

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Speaker 2: It's a much it's a much slower, much slower setup in.

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Speaker 1: Terms of data.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's less volatile. Therefore, but the real estate,

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Speaker 2: the residential real estate market in Australia tends to fall

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Speaker 2: every now and again by seven to ten percent, and

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Speaker 2: it never falls by more than ten percent, or hasn't

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Speaker 2: in the past. Asked, But it fell by by seven

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Speaker 2: or eight percent in twenty twenty two, the same in

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Speaker 2: twenty seventeen. Same in the GFC. Like it, that's what happens.

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Speaker 2: It just happens every now and again, either by it

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Speaker 2: because interst rates have gone up or some other reason.

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Speaker 2: One in twenty seventeen was because AFRA crackdown on bank

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Speaker 2: lending to invest.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they told banks to reduced amount of money they

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Speaker 1: leaned to invest down to thirty percent.

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Speaker 2: That's right. So, and that led to a fall in

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Speaker 2: the in the real estate market by about seven or

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Speaker 2: eight percent.

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Speaker 1: Banks went lad to lend investors the amount of money

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Speaker 1: they used to lend them it was running a forty

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Speaker 1: one percent, but the regulator said that during the period

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Speaker 1: it was actually two thousand. They brought the rule in

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Speaker 1: in about twenty sixteen, and it started to have an

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Speaker 1: effect in twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember because we were one of the ones

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Speaker 1: that got affected by it, and we were running our

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Speaker 1: business of forty one percent landing to investors and the

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Speaker 1: next thing we're down to thirty thirty percent, and that

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Speaker 1: a massive effect on the marketplace. So, because what I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to lean into here as allan is it seems

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Speaker 1: to me from every time I've seen exuberance, I've seen

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Speaker 1: not a crash but a restructure of the price. And

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Speaker 1: it looks like it happens every ten years, or every

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Speaker 1: eight years, or every nine years. Is that something that

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Speaker 1: you've ever really clocked yourself? I know you because I

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Speaker 1: know you're big on data.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Sure, the markets do tend to you know, it's

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Speaker 2: kind of the psychology of the herd. I mean, it

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Speaker 2: does happen that way. People get carried away and it

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Speaker 2: goes too high and then what's called the Minsky moment occurs,

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Speaker 2: which is where it's sort of just spontaneously combusts. Sometimes

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Speaker 2: it's caused by an event of some sort, like the

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Speaker 2: with the APRO cutting back investment lending to thirty percent,

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Speaker 2: and that sparks the restructure, as you put it. The

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Speaker 2: one in twenty twenty two was caused by interest rates

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Speaker 2: going up for property market. But sometimes the stock market

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Speaker 2: just just crashes, like in nine eighty seven, October eighty seven,

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Speaker 2: There was no real reason for it. It just happened.

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Speaker 1: Really, you don't think so.

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Speaker 2: There was definitely no event in October twentieth nine to

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Speaker 2: eighty seven it caused the crash. There wasn't an event

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Speaker 2: that just kind of everyone just kind of decided it

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Speaker 2: was time. Everyone got spooked. The market got spooked.

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Speaker 1: The too expensive.

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Speaker 2: It got too expensive, and everyone was kind of worried

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Speaker 2: and someone started selling. I mean, the GFC happened because

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Speaker 2: of because the American property market went backwards. House prices

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Speaker 2: fell thirty percent. But the fall in house prices starting

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Speaker 2: to started to impact lenders in the middle of two

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Speaker 2: thousand and seven, and a couple of mortgage funds started

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Speaker 2: to close their books. I think it was October September

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Speaker 2: October two thousand and seven. There was a couple of

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Speaker 2: European funds that stopped redemptions, and really that really did

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Speaker 2: cause the whole thing to start to unravel. So I

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Speaker 2: guess you could say the GFC was caused by an event,

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Speaker 2: but really what started the US property market to tumble?

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Speaker 2: Who knows?

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Speaker 1: That word? Exuberance? I think is really good. Irrational exuberance

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Speaker 1: is a really good sort of term for this, and

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Speaker 1: I think that's something that people should look out for.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's no such thing in any market about

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Speaker 1: as irrational exuberance. If it doesn't make sense, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: make sense. And sometimes we just lean into it think oh, no,

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Speaker 1: it's normal. Like we're sort of seeing a little bit

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Speaker 1: now with SpaceX and some of these tech companies. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't mind getting your view on that right now,

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Speaker 1: what do you think about this? And we've got trillionaires

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Speaker 1: or a trillionaire at least one in the world today

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Speaker 1: as a result of what happened with space SpaceX not

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Speaker 1: just being a space, it cabbe being a whole lot

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Speaker 1: of stuff in tech.

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Speaker 2: So I think that up until SpaceX, the exuberance in

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Speaker 2: the market was rational more or less because the prices

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Speaker 2: have been supported by profits on the whole companies like

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Speaker 2: Nvidio and Google and Amazon and Microsoft. These companies are

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Speaker 2: all making tons of money, and so the price earnings

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Speaker 2: ratios are not what they were in the Internet bubble

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Speaker 2: of the nineteen nineties. So in the Internet bubble of

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Speaker 2: the nineteen nineties, they were paying one hundred times earnings.

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Speaker 2: This time around, it's still twenty five thirty times earnings

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Speaker 2: because the profits are enormous. So the question then, leaving

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Speaker 2: us leaving space exercise, the question is whether the whether

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Speaker 2: it's a bubble in earnings rather than price, And you know,

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Speaker 2: you can make that argument. I think probably is in

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Speaker 2: terms of the AI businesses themselves and the ones that

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Speaker 2: are making tons of money. I think the needs are unsustainable,

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Speaker 2: but it does feel like, or look to the people

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Speaker 2: who are investing in them that they can justify the

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Speaker 2: prices because of the money they're making. SpaceX, on the

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Speaker 2: other hand, is losing money, right, and so it's a

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Speaker 2: loss making business that's been valued, you know, two trillion dollars.

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Speaker 2: That makes no sense at all. So that really is

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Speaker 2: the irrational exuberance, right. But Elon Musk has sold a

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Speaker 2: story about about the future that everyone's buying. So everyone's

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Speaker 2: buying this into this story.

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Speaker 1: But everybody in all those crashes had a story. I mean,

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Speaker 1: Beseidon had a story. I remember in the mid seventies,

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Speaker 1: there was a company called for a Vanadian, a guy

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Speaker 1: called Peter Briggs. Peter Briggs sold the story about for

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Speaker 1: a Vanadian which they were mining Vanadian which I don't know,

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Speaker 1: it was used for something or other. And as you

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Speaker 1: recall him in up going to jar for something different

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Speaker 1: to that. But and Alan Bond sold a story. There

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Speaker 1: were stories being sold. There's always someone selling us. And

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Speaker 1: then they're very and these people, some of whom you knew,

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Speaker 1: were very eloquent, highly respected, actually admired, were very good

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Speaker 1: on their feet. All of them have these common traits,

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Speaker 1: you know. So do you think Musk is different?

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Speaker 2: Well, not really, except he's obviously now that he's worth

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Speaker 2: a trillion dollars, it's kind of quantitatively different to everybody else.

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Speaker 2: You know, a trillion, there's a lot of money.

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Speaker 1: It's like it doesn't yet be receivable.

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Speaker 2: I mean I kind of worked it out. So when

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Speaker 2: when Tesla floated, it was it was priced at one

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Speaker 2: point seven billion in twenty ten, and now you know

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Speaker 2: SpaceX is a thousand times that at one point seven

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Speaker 2: trillion wow in the ip A, right, So I worked

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Speaker 2: out one point seven billion seconds ago was nineteen seventy

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Speaker 2: two wow, when Elton John released Rocketman, and you know

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Speaker 2: the rich Richard Nixon's operators broke into the Watergate Hotel

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Speaker 2: in all, nineteen seventy two, one point seven billionaires seconds ago.

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Speaker 2: One point seven trillion seconds ago was fifty two thousand

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Speaker 2: BC when we shared the planet with Neanderthals, right, So

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Speaker 2: that just gives you a sense of the difference between

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Speaker 2: a billion and a trillon. It's ammense. So Elon Musk,

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Speaker 2: he sold this, as you say, he sold the story

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Speaker 2: like a whole lot of other people. But I do

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Speaker 2: think he kind of gets believed partly because the story

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Speaker 2: is so interesting. You know, his stories are it's not

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Speaker 2: just one story. He's you know, the electric vehicle and

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Speaker 2: battery story is one thing. He's got this business called Neuralink,

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Speaker 2: which is developing a BREA computer interface interface. He's got

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Speaker 2: the Boring Company, which is doing tunneling under Las Vegas

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Speaker 2: and Los Angeles. He's developing the humanoid robot Optimus.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 2: He's got a rocket company, so he's doing the taxi,

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Speaker 2: the taxi trips to the to the International Space Station.

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Speaker 2: But it's amazing. And he's got he's bought Twitter, turned

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Speaker 2: it into X and he's you know, he's got an

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Speaker 2: AI business.

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Speaker 1: He's much more evolved in terms of his storytelling and

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Speaker 1: the stories who just got bigger and better and more admirable,

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Speaker 1: like because most of us just sit back, Oh my god,

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Speaker 1: that's amazing. Like but I was I remember saying that

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Speaker 1: about Christopher's case too, and he was ending maatic, like

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Speaker 1: nearly hypnotic in the way he did things. Alan Bond Waster,

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Speaker 1: he was the same even John Spalvin's sure John was

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Speaker 1: like I've seen photos of John with going to functions

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Speaker 1: with a red cape on over his dinner suit, six

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Speaker 1: foot six, looking magnificent. But at that stage, yeah, David Jones,

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Speaker 1: I think a big shore and Woolworths, nab shares, nab.

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Speaker 1: I think it was ad steam, pen foles, wines, meat,

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Speaker 1: pro brickworks. Like I used to think, my God, and

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Speaker 1: extremely eloquent and just beguiling, really And I used to

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Speaker 1: hold him in the same vision as I hold il

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Speaker 1: a Musk today, just the El Musk is a bit

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Speaker 1: more technology based and probably a little bit more beyond

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Speaker 1: my reach intellectually, because he just knows stuff that I

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Speaker 1: would never have even contemplated. But back then I used

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Speaker 1: to think the same about those other individuals, even BONDI.

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Speaker 1: I used to think that about Allen. Do you think

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Speaker 1: that these are hall marks of great entrepreneurs?

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Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, of course. I mean there's no doubt Eli Musk,

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Speaker 2: in my opinion, is a great entrepreneur.

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Speaker 1: Of course, Is he the greatest do you think at

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Speaker 1: this point?

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Speaker 2: Possibly?

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Speaker 1: Definitely by measurement he is, but interns the dollars.

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Speaker 2: But well, certainly the range of his the range of

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Speaker 2: his vision and what he's done is enormous. Of course, Look,

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Speaker 2: a lot of people say that he's a terrible human

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Speaker 2: being as well, you know, and I kind of I

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Speaker 2: think he probably is a lot of his a lot

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Speaker 2: of the kind of extreme right wing, vaguely anti Semitic

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Speaker 2: stuff that he's putting, white supremacist stuff that he puts

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Speaker 2: out as I find distasteful. So yeah, I mean he's

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Speaker 2: there's good and bad going on there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. But if you think today people more interested in

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Speaker 1: making money, therefore I put up with that sort of

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Speaker 1: stuff than they ever have been in the past.

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Speaker 2: Oh sure, I mean, you know overla. I mean, I

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Speaker 2: had a column the other day in which I kind

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Speaker 2: of wrote some of the stuff about how bad he

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Speaker 2: is in some ways. And I get these people saying, you, oh,

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Speaker 2: you've got Elon Musk derangement syndrome, and you know, what

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Speaker 2: do you think you're doing all this? I mean, there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of people who are massive Elon Musk fans,

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Speaker 2: you know, and so he can do no wrong. I

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Speaker 2: don't think that's very sensible either.

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Speaker 1: I guess to some extent, we're not here to judge

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Speaker 1: them at the end of the day. But it's interesting

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Speaker 1: how people will put aside their ethics and the morality

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Speaker 1: if there's a quid in it. It's pretty sort of

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Speaker 1: from my observations over the last fifty odd years, that's

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Speaker 1: to me that seems to be completely normal. And we

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Speaker 1: can go right back to back to the Poseidones and

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Speaker 1: the Peter Briggs from Forrivendian and al On Bond and

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Speaker 1: to some extent even Kerry Packer and Rupert during those periods.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I know you worked for Rupert over a

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Speaker 1: while for a period there, not worth Rupert so much,

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Speaker 1: but he probably knew him him once only once. Yes,

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Speaker 1: how long did you were Australian for?

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Speaker 2: Well, I worked at the Australian three times. I did

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Speaker 2: my cadet ship there. I went and worked there again

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Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy eight for a little while, not very long,

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Speaker 2: four times, and then nine ninety one I worked at

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Speaker 2: The Australian for six months, not long. And then when

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Speaker 2: they bought my business. Oh that's right, the Eureka. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so I had a Eureka reported business spectator.

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Speaker 1: That's right to.

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Speaker 2: Publications that I started. And then they bought the News Limited.

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Speaker 2: News Corp bought that business in twenty twelve and I

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Speaker 2: had a four year earnout, which meant you work for him,

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Speaker 2: which meant that I had to work for The Australian

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Speaker 2: for four years, which I did, and then the News

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Speaker 2: Corps sold Eureka Report to Investmart. That's right, and I

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Speaker 2: now worked for Investment.

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Speaker 1: You see you back to the beginning.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean well they Investment hired me to

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Speaker 2: run your Eco report again.

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Speaker 1: But there's a bit of a history opportunity for us

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Speaker 1: our audiences to listen to someone like you who has

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Speaker 1: been around such a long time and still going strong too.

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Speaker 1: By the way, I must say, you look great. You

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Speaker 1: look like you lost weight, you look like you're really fit.

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Speaker 2: I have lost weight. I'm going to the gym all

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Speaker 2: the time. I'm feeling great because I've decided that I've

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Speaker 2: got six grandchildren. The youngest is one, and I've decided

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Speaker 2: i want to be at her twenty first.

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Speaker 1: It's a great decision.

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Speaker 2: So that means I'm going to live to ninety four. Ye,

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Speaker 2: So I'm now doing what it takes to achieve that.

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Speaker 2: I'm not leaving that to chance. I'm trying to make

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Speaker 2: sure that I do live to my mid nineties.

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Speaker 1: Well what does that mean then, because I'm doing something similar.

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Speaker 1: I've worked out going to lift one hundred to do

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Speaker 1: the same thing. Oh yeah, And I've changed my whole

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Speaker 1: world in terms of exercise and food and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: I'm about two or three years ago. What does it

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Speaker 1: mean for you then? What if you done? What have

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Speaker 1: you changed?

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Speaker 2: I eat less, try to eat good food. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to the gym three times a week. I take some medicine.

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Speaker 2: I take a Staatens for the cholesterol. I take, you know,

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Speaker 2: blood pressure. I had. My blood pressure was a bit high.

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Speaker 2: So I've got that down. And I've got a cardiologist

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Speaker 2: who was looking after me, and he said you should

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Speaker 2: be because I had an atrial flatter relation fibrillation and

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Speaker 2: I got it a blated yep, And they and the

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Speaker 2: said you should be taking blood dinners.

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Speaker 1: So I said, fine, this is the best I've ever think,

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Speaker 1: I've ever seen. You actually had a surprise when you

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Speaker 1: walked in the studio.

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Speaker 2: I feel great. Yeah, yeah, I feel fantastic.

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Speaker 1: If you lost much weight. Twenty whoa all new suits

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Speaker 1: are really I've.

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Speaker 2: Had to Yeah, I've had to buy a whole on

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Speaker 2: the new suits. Yeah, it's cost me a fortune, but

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Speaker 2: it's good though. It is good. Well, if you know,

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Speaker 2: if I pick up twenty killers, it's quite heavy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, where your grandkids will be twenty killers. Not too

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Speaker 1: long to be for a grand kid to be twenty killers,

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Speaker 1: maybe three or four years of age. And is that

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Speaker 1: what's driving you your grandkids, your family?

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Speaker 2: Maybe yeah, but also you know, I mean you did

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Speaker 2: a long time. Yeah, so I think, well, you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm as well trying to stay alive as long as possible.

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Speaker 2: My dad passed away at eighty eight. That's good, which

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Speaker 2: is okay. My mum is ninety eight.

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Speaker 1: While still going. She's still going, so you've got the

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Speaker 1: genetic blessing.

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Speaker 2: She's going great.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's good, missus Kyler, well done. I do I

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Speaker 1: do want to go back to the eighties. It freak

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Speaker 1: gave eighty every second June the eighties. One of the

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Speaker 1: things that like in those days, I moved dat of

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Speaker 1: the canny films, work with law firm, and we end

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Speaker 1: up getting jobs for people like Bond Corporation and those

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Speaker 1: sorts of organizations and ad Steam too for that matter.

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Speaker 1: And I got to meet these individuals. And would you

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Speaker 1: say that entrepreneurship back then, due to the difference in

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Speaker 1: regulatory environments which we have today competed. Then do you

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Speaker 1: think that their time was much more conducy for entrepreneurship

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Speaker 1: and therefore sort of more nation building stuff for Australia.

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Speaker 2: Look, I wouldn't call it nation building. I think that

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Speaker 2: that's you know, putting too too good a spin on

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Speaker 2: what was going on. I mean, those blokes were they

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Speaker 2: just borrowed and took companies over, and they were kind

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Speaker 2: of I suppose in some ways the forerunners, the private

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Speaker 2: equity firms, borrow tons of money buy these companies, stripped them.

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Speaker 2: To be honest, it was quite murky, and you know

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Speaker 2: what they're up to was it was not that well known.

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Speaker 2: There was not a lot of disclosure going on in

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Speaker 2: those days. But what we call we call them entrepreneurs.

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Speaker 2: But they were not entrepreneurs in the sense of people

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Speaker 2: who start companies, start businesses, and you know, like the

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Speaker 2: sort of AI type entrepreneurs we talk about now. They

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Speaker 2: were just people who borrow tons of money and made

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Speaker 2: takeovers and the banks were prepared to lend them the money,

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Speaker 2: you know. And I think this is to some extent,

435
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:17,640
Speaker 2: this is before banks became what I regardless, building societies,

436
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,200
Speaker 2: where they just the banks are mainly housing lenders. Now,

437
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 2: in those days, they were mainly business lenders. Housing wasn't

438
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 2: a big deal back in the eighties. It was really

439
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:32,399
Speaker 2: to do with lending to businesses, and you know, they

440
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,879
Speaker 2: were prepared to lend sort of on a wish and

441
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:36,119
Speaker 2: a prayer in some ways.

442
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 1: Their due diligence wasn't great.

443
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 2: Not not great. They weren't There wasn't a lot of

444
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,360
Speaker 2: collateral going on. They were just prepared to give them

445
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,680
Speaker 2: some money. And I remember when well I was when

446
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,360
Speaker 2: I was editor of the fin Review and Warwick Young

447
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 2: Morrick Fairfax bought the company, paid his family out with

448
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 2: colossal maunts money that were lent to him by A

449
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:05,120
Speaker 2: and zaid Bank. Now, you know, there's no way any

450
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 2: of the banks would do that now, but they were

451
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 2: prepared to do it in nine to eighty seven.

452
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 1: You're right, banks lending policies were much easier. It was

453
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 1: nearly like relationship lending as opposed to proper credit assessment.

454
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,119
Speaker 1: Would you say that's the case as a former editor

455
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 1: at the AFR, would you say that on reflection that

456
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 1: was true?

457
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah. Look, I think what's occurred as bank regulation

458
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,400
Speaker 2: has evolved quite a lot, particularly after the GFC, when

459
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 2: there were these.

460
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 1: Basil rules.

461
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 2: Designed out of Switzerland and called Basel, but it was

462
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,160
Speaker 2: global banking rules that everyone signed up to, and basically

463
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 2: it meant that banks had to have proper collateral, which

464
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 2: basically ended up coming to mean property in real estate.

465
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 2: They weren't that, I mean, and that was based on

466
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 2: the sort of the amount of capital you have to

467
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 2: have against the loans, you better than me, and they

468
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 2: kind of. But because the amount of capital that you

469
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 2: have to have against the real estate loan was lower

470
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,880
Speaker 2: than against a business loan, they all gravitated towards.

471
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 1: Real estate because it was much more efficient.

472
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,120
Speaker 2: Was it more efficient and less less expensive? They didn't

473
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 2: have to have as much capital.

474
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:25,880
Speaker 1: So holding capital for doing nothing?

475
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 2: Basically that's right. But in the seventies and eighties it

476
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 2: was quite different. You know, the banks were much more

477
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 2: inclined to lend to you know, lend to businesses on

478
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 2: basis of not very much.

479
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 1: Was it the bank's chasing returns and therefore the banks

480
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,639
Speaker 1: were leaving themselves open to be talked into it? Or

481
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 1: do you think it's the individual? And do we have

482
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,399
Speaker 1: as many charismatic people today because I rarely see it

483
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: in the media, charismatic business leaders. Everybody tends to be

484
00:26:58,080 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 1: more rules based.

485
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 2: I think it's both banks were very keen to lend

486
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:07,679
Speaker 2: and they were looking for sort of charismatic individuals. And

487
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:09,479
Speaker 2: you know, even now and again someone will pop up.

488
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 2: You know, it was John Elliott or Alan Bond or

489
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 2: if you Robert Holmes of Court and you know, all

490
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 2: these characters Christophers case, uh you know, so they kind

491
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,639
Speaker 2: of did come along. And sure there's always some charismatic

492
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,920
Speaker 2: people around who can who are interested in making tons

493
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 2: of money and can persuade banks to lend the money.

494
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,160
Speaker 2: So that and that's what was going on then. As

495
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:37,399
Speaker 2: for now, I suppose it's a lot of it's to

496
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 2: do with AI now, you know, I mean some of

497
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:44,120
Speaker 2: these some of these people, I mean we talked about

498
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 2: Elon Musk. Obviously he's enormously charismatic. The the big AI companies

499
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 2: now are starting to borrow money, but they're issuing bonds.

500
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 2: I mean, it's not it's not about bank lending so

501
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,199
Speaker 2: much as bonds issuing to the market. So I do

502
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 2: think the other thing what's happened is that the markets

503
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 2: have taken over, so it's all about it's all about

504
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 2: markets now rather than lending offices in banks making decisions,

505
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 2: you know, whether it's a bond market or an equity market,

506
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 2: or the oil market, whatever it is. You know, I

507
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 2: mean markets now rule the world.

508
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:26,360
Speaker 1: How do you mean now markets?

509
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 2: Well, for example, you know, we're all been watching the

510
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 2: oil price lately, and you know, is it going to

511
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 2: go up? Is it go down? It's coming down. But

512
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 2: I remember in ninety to seventy three with the first

513
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 2: oil shock, and a lot of people compare what's happening

514
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 2: now with the oil shocks of the nineteen seventies. There

515
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 2: were two of them, seventy three and seventy nine.

516
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 1: One was in Iran War two.

517
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 2: By the way, well the revolution in Iran in ninety

518
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 2: seventy nine. But in fact, what happened in ninety seventy

519
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 2: nine was that OPEK doubled the price of oil, using

520
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 2: the Iran revolution as cover. I mean, the revolution had nothing.

521
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 1: To do with the price.

522
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 2: Really just coincided, just coincided. So what happened in seventy

523
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 2: three and seventy nine was that OPEC set the price.

524
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 2: I mean, in seventy three, OPEC quadruple the price of

525
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 2: oil from three dollars to twelve dollars a barrel. And

526
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 2: in seventy nine did the same and they doubled it again.

527
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 2: But in those days the price was set by Opeck.

528
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 2: Now it's the price is derived by trading on the

529
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 2: futures market. I mean when we talk about the price,

530
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 2: when I reported on the news, I'm not reporting what

531
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 2: OPEC or anyone else is setting as the price. I'm

532
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 2: reporting the futures price. And then the price that.

533
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 1: Is part of the markets provide us.

534
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 2: That's right, The markets do it, and then the price

535
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 2: that refineries have to pay for oil is derived from that.

536
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 2: You know, it's kind of a premium of twenty or

537
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 2: thirty or forty dollars per barrel over the whatever it is,

538
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 2: the futures price, the futures price, and so the whole

539
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 2: thing is determined by markets now, and the markets are

540
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 2: ruled by psychology, you know, it's not it isn't kind

541
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 2: of a producer setting the price.

542
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: And it's sort of perspective to a little bit too.

543
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 2: It's a perspective. It's it's how the traders feel. What

544
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 2: do they think is going to happen? Is the deal

545
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 2: going to happen? Is is Donald Trump going to do

546
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 2: a deal as they are or not? And then the

547
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 2: commodity traders. You know. It's as I talked about with

548
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 2: the Stock Stock Exchange when I was watching it as

549
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 2: a kid. There's this constant auction taking place, you know,

550
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 2: and if there's more buyers and sellers, the price goes up.

551
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 2: If there's more sellers and buyers, the price goes down,

552
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 2: you know. And it's kind of everything is all about

553
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 2: constant actions now. Everything, whether it's whether it's commodities, gold, copper, oil,

554
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 2: or share prices or bonds or whatever.

555
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: It's this funny even in an interest rate world. My world,

556
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: it's the same because we get our money from the

557
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 1: capital market, which is a market for capital for money,

558
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: and it's being priced on. Is the reserving going to

559
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 1: put the rates up? Reserving, You're not going to put

560
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 1: the rates up here. You and I are sitting here

561
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 1: on the day of the Reserving. It is going to

562
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: meet on the sixteenth of June, and already the market's

563
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 1: making decisions about what money costs me. Nothing to do

564
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 1: with the reserve bank, I mean.

565
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 2: And it's interesting because the reserve bank, we talk about

566
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 2: the reserve banks are going to hold rates or increase

567
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 2: rates or reduce them or whatever. And the impression you

568
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 2: get is that they set the rate, but in fact,

569
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 2: what they do is they intervene in the market. I mean,

570
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 2: they don't set anything. What they do is they buy

571
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 2: and sell money in the overnight cash market, and that

572
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 2: tends to influence the price of the money, right, And

573
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 2: so they what they're doing is not actually setting anything.

574
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 2: They're just they're operating in the market as a.

575
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 3: Player, the biggest player and the safest player. But yes,

576
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 3: but yeah, that's right. Yeah, but they're operating in the

577
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 3: market and to influence the price. So they have a target,

578
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,959
Speaker 3: so they call it, they call it the cash right target,

579
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 3: which is you know, so they're trying to achieve that,

580
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 3: and they generally do of course, because.

581
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 1: They are the biggest they can influence play a big player.

582
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 2: But still they're operating in the overnight cash market.

583
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 1: So that wouldn't be one of the biggest changes you've

584
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 1: seen in what we're doing about fifty odd years of

585
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 1: being in working in this world.

586
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 2: Oh definitely in the world. Sure. So what's happened is

587
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 2: the world's become financialized and marketized, if I can put it,

588
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 2: if you create that word, has become marketized in a

589
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 2: way that it never was before really, and it's quite interesting.

590
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 2: I think that we are now so ruled by markets

591
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 2: and it just happened, you know, we're kind of just

592
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 2: so used to it now. We talk about markets all

593
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 2: the time, I mean, and I kind of get up

594
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 2: there every night and talk about this market and that market,

595
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 2: you know, and everyone goes, oh, that's interesting.

596
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: You also supplied some great graphs too. I really love

597
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 1: your graphs and I love it when you put up

598
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: a graph. I mean, I'm a graph person. I love

599
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 1: a graph. Know you graph. I don't know if everyone

600
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 1: loves them, but I love a graph when you put

601
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 1: a graph up there. As a journalist, which has been

602
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 1: most of your business life, you've obviously met lots of

603
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: interesting people who apart from people you reported on, who

604
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 1: were some of the more interesting Australians you've met over

605
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 1: that fifty period.

606
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 2: Well, one of the more interesting, I guess was Lang Hancock,

607
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 2: who I actually worked for for a while wow in Perth.

608
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,479
Speaker 2: He had a newspaper called The National Minor really and

609
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 2: I was a journalist on that and so I had

610
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 2: a bit to do with Lang Hancock and he was

611
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 2: very interesting character.

612
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 1: One of the things that has always intrigued me about Lang,

613
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 1: and I was only watching video made by the ABC

614
00:33:54,800 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 1: Black and White about Lang Hancock flying back from north

615
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 1: of West Australia to Perth, perhaps on his own plane,

616
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 1: and because there was a lot of cloud, he had

617
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 1: to fly below the cloud and he was following a

618
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,879
Speaker 1: river bed and in following that riverbed he noticed one

619
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 1: of the cliffs on the river bed a lot of

620
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 1: iron ore deposits, probably read it. But he went back,

621
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 1: found of someone to land his plane got off. They

622
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 1: walked to the place and he must have made a

623
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 1: claim state to claim and it turned out to be

624
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: high grade because they did some brillian was high grade,

625
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 1: and of course it turned ended up being that this

626
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 1: is the largest depositive iron are in the world at

627
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 1: the time at least. And it's quite amazing story. And

628
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:44,359
Speaker 1: he talks about his partner right who most people don't

629
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 1: know about, whose family still exists today, have been he

630
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:52,279
Speaker 1: caught more recently with his daughter Jenna more recently. But

631
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 1: it's an amazing story about that. That's the for me,

632
00:34:56,200 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 1: that's the highest form of entrepreneurial entrepreneurialism re legacy, flying low,

633
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 1: trying to void cloud for a start, I would never

634
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,280
Speaker 1: get one of those airplanes. But flying low beat.

635
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 2: Me in his aeroplane once. Did you up to the

636
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:11,319
Speaker 2: pilbro And you know it's a very small plane and

637
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 2: he was flying it and he's we're up there, and

638
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 2: he says, I want to show you what's on the

639
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 2: ground and he went and I thought I was going

640
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 2: to die.

641
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,479
Speaker 1: That's incredible, but that's amazing. That type of entrepreneurism, that's

642
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 1: real Australia entrepreneurism as the way I said.

643
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's right, yeah, more much more so than

644
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 2: Alan Bond and the rest of them.

645
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 1: Do you think that is well an Australian spirit?

646
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, sure. Look I interviewed the other day. I

647
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,839
Speaker 2: interviewed a like named Andreas for Us who was an

648
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 2: engineer and he was he was at the university, the

649
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 2: University of Melbourne I think it was, and he was

650
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 2: studying airflow, the way that in wind tunnels and the

651
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 2: way that way airflow works. And he thought, I wonder

652
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:58,879
Speaker 2: if I could get I wonder if I could use

653
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 2: that this work to see what happens inside lungs. So

654
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 2: he started a company called four D Medical, which is

655
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 2: listed on the Stock is Change now and that was

656
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 2: kind of ten years ago, and ten years he's been

657
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,919
Speaker 2: plugging away and he's finally now he's got this. He's

658
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 2: got this system for measuring for examining lungs and also

659
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 2: blood flow from that, and he's now selling it to

660
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 2: American hospitals into radiologists and it's starting to take off.

661
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's fantastic. That is true entrepreneurialism,

662
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 2: because to.

663
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 1: Me, that's one of the great hallmarks of Australia. We

664
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,359
Speaker 1: have been great entrepreneurship. We invent a lot of stuff here.

665
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 1: I don't want to get political, but if we just

666
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 1: go and have a look at what's happened recently with

667
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 1: a couple of games takes, do you have view on

668
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,839
Speaker 1: these things relative to small business startups and or you know,

669
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:57,360
Speaker 1: brain drains going back to leaving austrang oul of America,

670
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:57,759
Speaker 1: et cetera.

671
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 2: Do you have a view on this on the capital.

672
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, relative to innovation.

673
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:05,879
Speaker 2: The capital gains tax introduced in nine to eighty five

674
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,839
Speaker 2: and the deal was one July, that's right, and you

675
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,280
Speaker 2: paid a tax on a capital gain at your marginal

676
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 2: income tax rate minus inflation. That was the deal. And

677
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 2: in ninety nine and nine they decided to change it

678
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 2: to a fifty percent where you only paid tax on

679
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 2: half the capital game.

680
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 1: They gave you where they called the capital games discount.

681
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 1: That's right, And that was under Costello, Yeah, and it was.

682
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,240
Speaker 2: It was done in response to a business tax review

683
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 2: that was before what was done by the three blokes

684
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 2: named John Ralph, Rick Ellett and Bob Joss who recommended

685
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 2: to Costello that they make this change in order to

686
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 2: encourage Australians to buy shares, to become a nation of

687
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:55,399
Speaker 2: share owners. And Costello said yep, okay, we'll do that.

688
00:37:55,480 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 2: And a few months later, the stock market crashed in

689
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 2: March two thousand as a result of the Internet bubble

690
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 2: coming to an end. So no one wanted to buy shares.

691
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 2: Whether they were ever going to, who knows, but they

692
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 2: certainly didn't after the stock market crash. And then so

693
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 2: everyone said, well that's fantastic, we'll we'll buy property and

694
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 2: out of the following three years, house prices in Australia

695
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 2: went up forty five percent. Well I just think, okay,

696
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 2: what happened with that change was that it turned housing

697
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 2: from somewhere to live to a wealth builder, you know,

698
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 2: So I do think that it's a good idea to

699
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 2: go back to the inflation adjustment, you know, mainly because

700
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 2: nobody understands Nobody understands what the inflation adjustment is. Nobody

701
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 2: can work it out. Everyone understands what a fifty percent

702
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 2: discount is. So before, while it was an inflation adjustment,

703
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 2: it was all a mystery to people. You know, the

704
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 2: whole thing was mysterious, and nobody really wanted to do

705
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 2: it and wanted to fifty percent discount. Everyone wanted to

706
00:38:58,000 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 2: do it right. And now I think we need to

707
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 2: go back to the way it was for property, for

708
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 2: real estate. Whether you need to do that for business,

709
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, I understand Jim Chalmer's argument

710
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 2: that you don't want people to make investment decisions based

711
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 2: on tax reasons, and because tax distorts people's decisions, and

712
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 2: so that's why he's going to make it the same

713
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 2: for everything. I just think that they're spending a lot

714
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 2: of political capital on achieving that, and there's other things

715
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 2: that are more important. So if it was me, I

716
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:38,359
Speaker 2: think he ought to basically exempt businesses from it.

717
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 1: I mean, we talk about property being the greatest rangeery,

718
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 1: and I think also being a business for yourself as

719
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 1: a gross rangeram and for those people who do it.

720
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 1: What's important because you know, private enterprise pays for public

721
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 1: spending because you've got through by virchu of the taxes

722
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 1: you collect from private enterprise. If I'm going to get

723
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,439
Speaker 1: treated better by investing in the United States or treated

724
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 1: better by investing in New Zealand and compared to Australia,

725
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 1: well that money will always find where where the greatest

726
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,360
Speaker 1: return is, which includes income tax impost.

727
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 2: So I agree with you.

728
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,280
Speaker 1: I think that it's not a big deal to exempt.

729
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 1: The amount of money you're saving is not a lot.

730
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:17,799
Speaker 1: But what you're doing is you're opening up the door

731
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 1: to capital because capital is so important because the market's

732
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 1: discussion we're making before capital these days can go anywhere.

733
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 1: I mean, it's completely slate water for to always find

734
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 1: his best position and that's about the best return. And

735
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,479
Speaker 1: like once upon a time you couldn't even get money

736
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 1: out of Australia one stage be an exchange control back

737
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 1: in the late seventies early eighties, I think it was.

738
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 1: Now money is just go anywhere, and there's so many

739
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:52,280
Speaker 1: markets around. There's a market for capital, private capital.

740
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 2: So look, I think that even even if you just

741
00:40:56,400 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 2: said startups. The problem with startups is, you know the

742
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 2: cost place is zero nothing, so you know, the capital

743
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:07,320
Speaker 2: gains tax when you sell the startup businesses is nothing.

744
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 1: He get inflation on nothing, he says nothing.

745
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, So look I do think that, you know, I

746
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 2: think they probably will actually do exact businesses.

747
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 1: Do you talk to prime ministers and treasurers?

748
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 2: Oh?

749
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, do they talk to you?

750
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 2: Do they actually say I talked to the treasure from

751
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 2: time to time?

752
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, you've obviously talked a lot of treasures over the years.

753
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 1: I mean you go back to beyond Keating, I mean

754
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,439
Speaker 1: you probably go to Simon Crane and Frank Frank Crew.

755
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

756
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:35,720
Speaker 1: I was a kid then, I was in the eighties.

757
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:37,399
Speaker 2: I wasn't talking to treasurers in those days.

758
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 1: John Howard is a treasure around that period as a record.

759
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah. But the first treasure I had a

760
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 2: lot to do with was Porkinty.

761
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 1: Who are some of the great treasures that you have

762
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 1: dealt with?

763
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 2: Or Keening? For sure?

764
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 1: What is it about Keening that was great?

765
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,359
Speaker 2: He had this incredible scope, you know.

766
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 4: He's as in range of yeah, and his vision was

767
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 4: he had this clear vision of what was needed, and

768
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 4: he kind of he said about doing it.

769
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 2: You know, he wasn't interested in kind of day to

770
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,879
Speaker 2: day politics as much as I mean, as most of them.

771
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 2: I think, I kind of I'm struggling to think of

772
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 2: anyone else in his league, to be honest.

773
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I sort of hold keeping up to him in

774
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: terms of treasures I've known as probably the best, definitely

775
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 1: one of the most committed in terms of his ideology.

776
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 1: Relative to the super guarantee, for example, is unbelievable. I mean,

777
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 1: that's one of the best bits of legislation policy changes

778
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 1: we've ever seen Australia have relative to the rest of

779
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 1: the world. Like our superhneration policy on a global basis

780
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,800
Speaker 1: is the top of the tree. Everybody admires it and

781
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 1: it's a hard thing to set up today. I mean,

782
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: it took a lot of stones to get that in

783
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 1: place in ninety three, three or four, I can't rememberhen

784
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 1: it was around the period, and it's an amazing outcome

785
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 1: because look at the money super refund funds got today.

786
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 1: Super funds themselves have got today to invest back into

787
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:10,839
Speaker 1: Australia and they were also overseas.

788
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 2: You know, it was great. I mean that was fantastic reform.

789
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,400
Speaker 2: And you know the way he dragged Hawk through into

790
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:19,319
Speaker 2: this reforms of the in the eighties, opening up the

791
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 2: economy flowed on the dollar, all that stuff.

792
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 1: I was deregulating the banks lending did regulating lending off

793
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 1: the back of the Cambon quiry. What about prime ministers?

794
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 1: Did you have much to do with any PM? No?

795
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:35,879
Speaker 2: Not really no, I mean I'm not. I've never been

796
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 2: a political journalist, always been financial, so you know, I've

797
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:43,319
Speaker 2: met prime ministers, but never really had much to do

798
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 2: with them.

799
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 1: And one name I want to ask you about is

800
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 1: Kerry Packer. Did you ever have much to do with Kerry?

801
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 2: I only met I met him, I guess, but I

802
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 2: didn't have much to do with him.

803
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 1: What do you think of the impact of someone like

804
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 1: Kerry Packer back in the eighties, nineties, two thousands, but

805
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,879
Speaker 1: probably the eighties and nineties when he was starting rise

806
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 1: in the nineties when he was eating his peak.

807
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, well he obviously as other of nine, he was

808
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 2: tremendously influential. He changed cricket forever.

809
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 1: He did it in a good way, yeah, a good way.

810
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:14,879
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

811
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 1: Do you think Australian needs more of those characters or

812
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:20,719
Speaker 1: do we have them? Maybe we have them, do we

813
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 1: have them now? But your observation now.

814
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 2: We don't have them to the extent that we did,

815
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 2: then I think that's fine. You know, really, I don't

816
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 2: think we need sort of characters like that anymore. I

817
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 2: think it's fine.

818
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 1: But I mean by characters, I don't mean necessarily powerful people,

819
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:45,239
Speaker 1: but just big characters in terms of the landscape. You know,

820
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 1: people Australians would like to talk about, you know, hate

821
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 1: them or love them, doesn't matter.

822
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 2: I'm just I live in Victoria, right and Melbourne, and

823
00:44:55,880 --> 00:45:01,360
Speaker 2: we've just had the death of Neil Danaher So he

824
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 2: was he's so I think it's very interesting. He's you know,

825
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:09,840
Speaker 2: it's been almost a week of mourning of a huge,

826
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 2: big state funeral. I mean, that's the sort of guy.

827
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 2: That's the sort of person we should be, you know, celebrating.

828
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 1: He's a big character.

829
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:23,720
Speaker 2: He's a big character, but he's a good character.

830
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 3: You know.

831
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 2: He he acted for everyone, for others rather than himself,

832
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 2: you know. So you know, the big characters of the

833
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 2: eighties and that, like Kerry Packer and others we've been

834
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:38,240
Speaker 2: talking about, they were all about themselves. You know, they

835
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 2: were not for the rest of us, whereas Neil Danaher was.

836
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 1: He was selfless, selfless.

837
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:47,919
Speaker 2: And so that's that's what that's Those are the people

838
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 2: I think we should celebrate, and I think these days

839
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 2: we tend more to do that.

840
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:53,839
Speaker 1: That's funny, that's true.

841
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:57,399
Speaker 2: We do tend to celebrate people like Neil Danaher now.

842
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:01,720
Speaker 2: And you know, I think when when I was growing

843
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 2: up as a young journalist, we didn't really pay much

844
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 2: attention to the Order of Australia, you know, and who

845
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 2: got the gongs and all this, But now we do,

846
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 2: I think, and there's stories about them and lots of

847
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 2: attention paid to people who deservedly get you know, Order

848
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 2: of Australian awards.

849
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 1: Well, and I should congratulate you on your twenty nineteen

850
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,919
Speaker 1: Order in Australia. Yeah, you've got the AMM.

851
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 2: I like most people, I didn't deserve mine.

852
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 1: Well I don't know, sure were that And I mean,

853
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:35,359
Speaker 1: like sometimes you get it just by virtue of being

854
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 1: able to be the last man standing. You are one

855
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:40,399
Speaker 1: of the last men standing exactly so, but by the way,

856
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 1: that takes a lot. That's a big deal because like

857
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 1: if you want any good at your job, you would

858
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 1: not be there anymore, like anyhow I mean like, but

859
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 1: I do want to congratulate, and I also want to

860
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 1: congratulate you on you know, I don't want to pull

861
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 1: how many kids you got?

862
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 2: Three? Three?

863
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:56,680
Speaker 1: I don't want to pick one out in particularly because

864
00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 1: I don't know the other ship. I know one and

865
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 1: he's actually been on the show set right there. And

866
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 1: you know, he's a great model of yourself, and in

867
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:08,760
Speaker 1: a modern version, he's he's very good, Chris. He's very funny,

868
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 1: really funny.

869
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 2: He's a lot funnier than I am.

870
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:12,879
Speaker 1: He must be proud of him.

871
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, he's great. You know. I talk to him

872
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 2: every day every day. Yeah.

873
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:19,280
Speaker 1: And does he seek your advice?

874
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:22,759
Speaker 2: Yeah? And I see his Oh wow. Well he knows

875
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:26,400
Speaker 2: much more about the modern world of communication that I do.

876
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 1: Really, he surely does about particularly social media.

877
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:29,319
Speaker 2: Yeah.

878
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 1: I mean that's he's very clever on that stuff.

879
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:39,080
Speaker 2: He's very clever. He's a wonderful father, he's committed, he's great.

880
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 2: Love him.

881
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 1: He probably really answered this, But what is the biggest

882
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 1: economic policy that Australia should be most proud of over

883
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 1: that you've seen over the last few.

884
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:50,879
Speaker 2: I think you've answered it, which is I think superannuation.

885
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 2: I think is the it's the thing that we've got

886
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:58,919
Speaker 2: that we've done that's unique in the world. We thought

887
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 2: up ourselves and did it and did it well.

888
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:08,360
Speaker 1: I think that's Paul Keating's compulsory submariation and Bill Kelty correct.

889
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 1: Is Bill Kelty still around his Victoria great actually been

890
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:15,319
Speaker 1: quite vocal about some of the Labor Party policies of

891
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 1: late Bill as I recall, he's good. And my final

892
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:23,760
Speaker 1: question for you, and that's always a tough one, but

893
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 1: what one thing do you think for Alan Kohola? You're

894
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:29,759
Speaker 1: most parental for yourself. There are things in life that

895
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 1: just keep delivering. The more time goes on, the more

896
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:36,760
Speaker 1: you appreciate them. Seventy five years of pen File's range,

897
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 1: once tasted, never forgotten. Let's keep going. What's one thing

898
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be worked?

899
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 2: By the way, I'm struggling this.

900
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:47,879
Speaker 1: Chuse there's so many.

901
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 2: I suppose. All three of my children are terrific people.

902
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 2: You know, they're really good people. I love being with them,

903
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:04,759
Speaker 2: and each of them chose a great partner. I think

904
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 2: that's the fact that they have ended up with with

905
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:13,360
Speaker 2: fantastic partners. I think is a really good sign of

906
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:16,840
Speaker 2: who they are and how they live their lives. And

907
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:19,480
Speaker 2: so yeah, I think the thing I'm most proud of

908
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:20,240
Speaker 2: is my children.

909
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:24,360
Speaker 1: Well that's a pretty good thing to be able to

910
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:26,240
Speaker 1: talk about. That's as a father.

911
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, they all live near me. I see them all

912
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 2: the time, and I'm proud of each of them. And

913
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:35,319
Speaker 2: you know, so that's the thing I suppose, you know,

914
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:38,279
Speaker 2: in terms of my own life, that's the thing. I think.

915
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:40,360
Speaker 2: It's my best achievement.

916
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:43,760
Speaker 1: Well, Alankohol, that gets to me. Been a real privilege

917
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:46,360
Speaker 1: to sit here with you, to talk to you about

918
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:51,320
Speaker 1: what you've done in your life. I admire intellect and

919
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 1: what you donate to any of anyone who listens, reads,

920
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:56,799
Speaker 1: or watches you. What you donate to us in terms

921
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,359
Speaker 1: of what we need to know things for much appreciate it.

922
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 2: It's been a pleasure. Thanks Bock