1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: By the time of passing traveler saw their camp around 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:08,239 Speaker 1: two pm. Next day, the tent had burned down and 3 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: it had scorched the toyota. The ashes were cold, and 4 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 1: so was the trail. Fortune sometimes goes against the bad guys. Ultimately, 5 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 1: their job was to find the remains of the dead people, 6 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 1: and the only way to do that was to keep 7 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: their best suspect on the hook without him breaking the line. 8 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:34,200 Speaker 1: I'm Andrew rule. This is life in crimes. The story 9 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: that is consuming probably many Australians of recent times is 10 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: the trial of Greg Lynn, the former Jetstar pilot who 11 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: has been charged and stood trial for the murders of 12 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: pensioners Russell Hill and Carol Clay in a remote spot 13 00:00:55,360 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: at Wollongata in eastern Victoria back in March of twenty twenty, 14 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: a trial in which a jury would find Lynn guilty 15 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: of Carol Clay's murder but not Russell Hill's. In fact, 16 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: as our regular listeners and readers will know, their campsite 17 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: was discovered burnt out on precisely the weekend that COVID 18 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: struck Victoria, and so their fate has always been entwined 19 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: with the advent of COVID. In Victoria. And there is 20 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: no doubt that the slow start of the police investigation 21 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: into their deaths or their disappearance and presumed death, was 22 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: due to the fact that the entire country, and to 23 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: some extent the entire globe was suddenly struggling with a 24 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: mass pandemic. And that is the background to the story. 25 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: Now I'm going to take us through the long and 26 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: winding road of this story to get us to the 27 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: trial which has just finished, so we all catch up 28 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,919 Speaker 1: on what happened a long way A year after Carol 29 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,919 Speaker 1: Clay and Mussell Hill vanished in twenty twenty, police were 30 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: quietly closing in on a suspected killer with a ghastly 31 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: secret in his head and a repainted Nissan Patrol in 32 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: his driveway, a four bill drive of the type that 33 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 1: a lot of Australians use, including hundreds of deer hunters 34 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: who go shooting in the high country. These investigators were 35 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 1: confident they knew the identity of the last person to 36 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: see Hill and Clay alive twelve months earlier, back in 37 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: twenty twenty, unless this Nissan driver in suburban Caroline Springs 38 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: was cleared by a watertight alibi or forensic science, he 39 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: would become prime suspect for the couple's presumed deaths. At 40 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: that stage, police were certain that the missing pair had 41 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: met a violent end at the Woongata Valley campsite, and 42 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:09,079 Speaker 1: that their bodies had been moved away from there by 43 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,799 Speaker 1: a third party. The timing had helped the third party 44 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 1: flee the scene because of the COVID pandemic which had 45 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:18,799 Speaker 1: hit Victoria that week, and of course the pandemic dominated 46 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: media coverage and had hindered public collaboration and police investigation. 47 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: But if the Nissan driver felt lucky for the first 48 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: few weeks, when it still seemed possible that the missing 49 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 1: pair were lost in the bush or had secretly run away, 50 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 1: he was wrong. In truth, his luck had soured on 51 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: that first night when he had tried to slip away 52 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: from the high country by a backtrack towing the trailer 53 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: that would later mysteriously vanish by chance, risky conditions had 54 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: caused rangers to lock a gate across the track that 55 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,839 Speaker 1: would eventually have brought the driver. The Nissan driver out 56 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: Myrtleford on the northwestern side of the Rangers without having 57 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: to detour back to use better roads via Mount Hotham, 58 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: so if our Nissen man, who is in fact Greg Glynn, 59 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: if he had been able to use that backtrack, or 60 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 1: if he decided to smash the gate and drive through 61 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: it and take a chance on getting through there, and 62 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:28,159 Speaker 1: had he got through, there's every reason to believe that 63 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,840 Speaker 1: he would have got away with murder because when he 64 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:35,280 Speaker 1: hit that unexpected roadblock and turn around and went via 65 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 1: Mount Hotham, his car, his Nissen Fool drive that was 66 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,840 Speaker 1: blue when he was driving it on that occasion and 67 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: later he painted a base which is a story in itself. 68 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:51,159 Speaker 1: When it went through the resort at Mount Hotham, it 69 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: was automatically recorded by security cameras which record the number 70 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 1: plates of every car going past. And because that happened, 71 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,160 Speaker 1: police were able to check which cars are gone passed 72 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 1: in a certain period, and they also struck some very 73 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: good luck. Because the Nissen driver had been forced to 74 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: go back to Mount Hotham, he came within the range 75 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,720 Speaker 1: of mobile phone towers because where he'd been at One 76 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: and Gata there's no mobile phone coverage and it was 77 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: only when he was forced to drive to Mount Hotham 78 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 1: and take basically the high road out that he came 79 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 1: within range, and when he came within range, the mobile 80 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:44,360 Speaker 1: phones in his car pinged on the towers, and the 81 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: mobile phone pinged on the tower belonged to Russell Hill. 82 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 1: That somehow, in the hurly burly of taking their bodies out, 83 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: he'd also taken Hill's phone. And Hill's phone was turned 84 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:03,039 Speaker 1: on and it had not gone flat, and it pinned 85 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 1: on the nearest tower. And so police subsequently, much later 86 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:14,159 Speaker 1: were able to say Russell Hill's phone was traveling in 87 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: the Mount Hotham area at this particular time, you know, 88 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: nine o'clock in the morning or whatever the morning after 89 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 1: we think Russell Hill was killed, and it was clearly 90 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:29,040 Speaker 1: in a car because it was traveling. So which car 91 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 1: is it? So they find the time down by looking 92 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 1: at the camera and they say, well, twelve cars went 93 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: through Mount Hotham at that time, a particular time gap 94 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: that we're looking at, just twelve cars, and they looked 95 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 1: at each of the twelve and one of the twelve 96 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: was a blue missm And it was that confluence of 97 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: two events, the blocked backtrack and the fact that he 98 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: had Russell Hill's phone in his car that caught Greg Lynn. 99 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 1: Because before that there was no sign of Greg Lynn. 100 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 1: There was nothing to prove exactly when he'd been in 101 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: the high country, and he would have been able to 102 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: lie his way out of it reasonably easily, and he 103 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 1: was pretty good at it. Had he got out that backtrack, 104 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: there's going to be no sign of Russell Hill's phone 105 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: and no number plate recognition camera recording what car is driving. 106 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: He would have come out of the bush. Why haven't 107 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: immertaled for it somewhere many, many many kilometers from the 108 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: crime scene and made his way back to Melbourne down 109 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: the hum Highway. Not a problem. Fortune sometimes goes against 110 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: the bad guys. As former lawyer Andrew Fraser used to say, 111 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: really miserable bad people lose. He used a shorter expression. 112 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: And so the police got two lucky breaks. That meant that, 113 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: after months of detective work, they were able to narrow 114 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: the field of potential suspects to a very small number 115 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: of people who'd been in the mountains on March twenty first, 116 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: twenty twenty but had not voluntarily come forward. And of 117 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: course some people draw attention to themselves by trying not 118 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: to draw attention. So anyone that the police knew had 119 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 1: been up there, who hadn't come forward to tell them 120 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: that they'd been up there. They were worth looking at. 121 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: Why had they not come forward? Now, obviously they're not 122 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: all murderous. If there's six or eight people who haven't 123 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: come forward, they're not all killers, And in fact none 124 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: of them might be killers. But they could be deer 125 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 1: hunters who were up there when they shouldn't have been. 126 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 1: They might have been people who've got other reasons not 127 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: to go to the police because they might have a 128 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 1: dope crop up there somewhere. Just people who don't want 129 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: to mix with police, or deal with police, or have 130 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: anything to do with them. Some of them might have 131 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: been people from inter state or had gone into state 132 00:08:56,280 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: and hadn't realized that the police wanted them. All sorts 133 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: of reasons why you may not come forward, But only 134 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: one person had the big reason not to come forward, 135 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: and that was Greg Linn, and he did not put 136 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 1: himself forward. This evasiveness does not prove criminality, but evasive 137 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 1: people greatly interested detectives who were following a couple of 138 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: strands of investigation. On those strands, who were, of course 139 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: the blue Nissen as driven by Greg Lynn and the 140 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 1: mobile telephone as previously owned and carried by the vanished 141 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 1: Russell Hill. So police have sophisticated ways of analyzing phone data, 142 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: which is why they now routinely use mobile phone records 143 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: to pinpoint suspects in high profile murders such as Jill 144 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: Mars's death in Brunswick in twenty twelve, and will ultimately 145 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: prove vital to the Samantha Murphy case. Hunting international terrorists 146 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: has improved interpretation of mobile phone data, which is why 147 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: the Woe and Gatter investigators, the missing Persons people looked 148 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: for overseas help. They went to the experts. When the 149 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: police started reeling in persons of interest, they asked them 150 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 1: what they were doing at Wollongata on certain days in 151 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: March twenty twenty. A flat denial might be a provable lie, 152 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: and that would be a reason for suspicion and a 153 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: mission would set up the next question, why not voluntarily 154 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 1: identify yourself the way that other people have? And after that, 155 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: of course, the questions would get tougher and they would 156 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: lead to the big one. Okay, where are the bodies? 157 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: Investigators were playing a long game after a slow start. 158 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: By the time of Passing Camper reported Russell Hill's burnt 159 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: out tent and scorched Toyota to Sail police several days 160 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 1: had passed. Initial reports did not make that time lapse clear, 161 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: which confused potential witnesses. They weren't sure when it was 162 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: that the police thought something bad had happened. At first, 163 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: it seemed reasonable that the pair had got lost and 164 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: that their tent had coincidentally burned down, either accidentally totally 165 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: accident accidentally when a campfire had been blown by the 166 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: wind or something, or through arson by opportunist thieves who'd 167 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: pilfered the camp and then set light to it opportunist thieves, 168 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: not killers. The fact that Russell Hill's expense he drone 169 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 1: was missing raised the possibility that the pair the missing 170 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 1: pair Hill and Clay, went looking for it in the 171 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: bush and had become lost and then died from exposure, 172 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 1: which can happen up there very easily, And if that 173 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 1: had happened, their bodies would soon be eaten by wild dogs. 174 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,319 Speaker 1: Now that might sound far fetched, but as we've often 175 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: discussed in this podcast, that grisly scenario has often played 176 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: out in the mountains over many decades, and not just 177 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 1: those mountains either. In other patches of bush around Victoria, 178 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: bodies have been consumed by wild dogs, to the extent 179 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: that one body buried by criminals way back in the 180 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: bad old days. All they found was one of his 181 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: shoes and the remains of a tweed jacket which had 182 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 1: the maker's tag in it, and that enabled the police 183 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:34,079 Speaker 1: to identify the victim. The rest of him had been 184 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 1: eaten by the wild dogs. Apparently dogs aren't clean on 185 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 1: tweed jackets and shoes. Two things pointed towards sudden and 186 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 1: violent deaths at one and gatter. First, the organized searches, 187 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: in good searches, lots of them, could find no trace 188 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: of the missing people nothing. Second, investigators calculated that their 189 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: sleeping bags were missing because when they looked in the 190 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: bashes of the fire, they couldn't find any zips. So 191 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:07,079 Speaker 1: they reckoned that sleeping bags had been taken, and that 192 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: was an indicator. Probably they'd been used as body bags. 193 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 1: They didn't think they'd carried them away. Meanwhile, it was 194 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:20,559 Speaker 1: increasingly clear that the pair did not stage their own disappearance. 195 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 1: We all know the reasons why these days, computerized banking 196 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: credit cards, nationwide network of security cameras and traffic cameras 197 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: showed no signs that they were alive, not one. Russell 198 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: Hill was an experienced bushman, he'd worked in the area 199 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: as a logger and was unlikely to get lost. Against 200 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 1: that was the macabre, longshot possibility of an elaborate murdered 201 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: suicide committed by a secretive man leading a double life. Now, 202 00:13:56,160 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: as we all know now, Russell Hill was conducting long 203 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 1: time affair with his childhood sweetheart Carol Clay. They'd been 204 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: sweethearts as kids, and despite the fact they both married 205 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:13,679 Speaker 1: other people, they'd renewed the spark of romance at some 206 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 1: stage later in life. And it was true that Russell Hill, 207 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: although under pressure from Carol Clay to end his marriage 208 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: and marry her, was leading a double life. He'd been 209 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 1: reluctant to leave his own family and he preferred to 210 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: lead a double life, and that, of course raises the 211 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: possibility that he could become depressed about it and commit 212 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: a murder suicide such as one as we've seen down 213 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: in the Otway region in recent weeks, where a couple 214 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: of about this age met their end, and it clearly 215 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: was a murder suicide committed with a gun. And that 216 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: was something that police could not discount, but they did 217 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 1: such thorough searches that they believed that a third party 218 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: was involved. Time makes mysteries deeper and darker. The fact 219 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: that three other people had disappeared in the High Country 220 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: in the previous nine years bred rumors about an eccentric 221 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: spear hunter that was dubbed button Man, so cool because 222 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: he used to make these sort of buttons out of 223 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: deer antem put them in his ears. Nothing wrong with that, 224 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 1: just a thing he did detect his look back to. 225 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: When Hill picked up Carol Clay from near her Pakenham 226 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: home on the morning of March nineteenth, twenty twenty. To 227 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: a casual observer, there wasn't much to see, just an 228 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: older man in a Toyota land Cruiser with a very 229 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: pleasant woman of his own age. They were just gray 230 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: nomads off on a trip, except for the one thing. 231 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 1: No one else in either family knew that they were 232 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: going camping together. That was a secret from their respective family, 233 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: as everyone knows. Russell Hill and his wife Robin were 234 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: longtime friends of Carol, who was well known in the 235 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: Country Women's Association. The Hills lived in Druen after returning 236 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: from Hayfield up in Gippsland, where they'd spent the nineteen eighties, 237 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 1: while Russell worked in the bush logging, often in the 238 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: big timber coops towards the old Wollongatt station site, which 239 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: is why he knew the area so well. Hill apparently 240 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: drove his Toyota on his usual route through Hayfield and 241 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: Lo Cola to Wollongatta. The pair vanished sometime in the 242 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: eighteen hours after Hill made a radio call to a 243 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: friend late on March twentieth. He said he was about 244 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: to camp near the old station sometime that night or 245 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: next morning. The pair disappeared. By the time a passing 246 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: traveler saw their camp around two pm next day, the 247 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: tent had burned down and it had scorched the toyota. 248 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: The ashes were cold, and so was the trail. When 249 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: sale police arrived, they found the toyota locked. They assumed 250 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 1: that Hill was probably carrying his keys and his mobile phone. 251 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,120 Speaker 1: Fair enough, a man who'd lived in the country all 252 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: his life, he was probably unlikely to have locked his 253 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 1: car while sitting next to it, but he probably would 254 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: lock it if they both went off for a walk, 255 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 1: because you know, even up in the remote spots, casual 256 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:27,680 Speaker 1: theft can happen, and there's quite a lot of people 257 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:30,919 Speaker 1: go through that area. If you park there for twenty 258 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: four hours, there would be cars go past, and some 259 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 1: of them might be driven by people who might pinch 260 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 1: stuff from your camp. The tent fire was puzzling. Was 261 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: it arson or was it an accident? Thieves often set fires, 262 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: whether maliciously or to destroy fingerprints and DNA, same with killers. 263 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 1: Over time, detectives canned the idea the pair were lost, 264 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: but they couldn't quite rule it out comple Maybe they 265 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 1: went for a walk with the drone and got bushed 266 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 1: after losing the drone in the early stages. An alternative 267 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,439 Speaker 1: theory for the drone's absence was that Hill left it 268 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,919 Speaker 1: in the tent and that a passing opportunist stole it 269 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: before torching the camp. The question was whether such a 270 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 1: thief would also kill and dispose of two harmless pensioners. 271 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:31,159 Speaker 1: Police believed that someone had. They had a fair idea 272 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:33,679 Speaker 1: who was the last to see the missing pair alive 273 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: long before they made a move. When police first interviewed 274 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 1: Greg Lynn in July twenty twenty, less than four months 275 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: after the presumed double homicide, he wasn't a suspect. They 276 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: came knocking at his house because his vehicle registration was 277 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,919 Speaker 1: one of several recorded by the cameras at Mount Hotham 278 00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: Missing Persons. Detective Abbi Justin would later tell a court 279 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 1: that when she and another investigator questioned the then Jetstar 280 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: pilot in his kitchen at Caroline Springs, he was just 281 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:12,640 Speaker 1: a potential witness. Still, they were interested in his movements 282 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:16,160 Speaker 1: as they were in other people's movements, and they were 283 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: intrigued by the fact that he had painted his blueness 284 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: and bronze and sold his trailer, or he said he 285 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:29,640 Speaker 1: sold it. The pilot's answers did not satisfy the investigator's curiosity, 286 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: which had been pricked many weeks before, back in May 287 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: twenty twenty, which is only two months after the pair 288 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 1: went missing. That, of course, was when the analysis of 289 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: Russell Hill's mobile phone data showed that between nine twenty 290 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:51,679 Speaker 1: six and nine fifty precisely on March twenty first, his 291 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,719 Speaker 1: phone was moving towards Mount Hotham from the Dargo direction, 292 00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 1: so as moving north from Dargo, Hill had not been 293 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 1: in contact with any one since the previous evening when 294 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 1: he had his regular call with his fellow amateur radio enthusiasts. 295 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:13,120 Speaker 1: Police were confident the fatal confrontation was later that night, 296 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 1: on the twentieth, which meant that if Hill's mobile phone 297 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:21,160 Speaker 1: was traveling next morning, it was with someone else, not 298 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: with Hill, or not with Hill alive, perhaps with a 299 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:28,679 Speaker 1: dead Hill. And as we know, just twelve vehicles passed 300 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: through Hotham in that time frame, and one of those 301 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: twelve was Gregg Lynne's Nissen, which then was Blue. Police 302 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: spent five weeks researching the pilot before knocking on his door. 303 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,679 Speaker 1: On July the fourteenth, Abby Justin and her boss, Acting 304 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: Sergeant Brett Florence, came knocking. The police recorded the conversation 305 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: and Lynn provided a statement he was a person of 306 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 1: interest well on the way to becoming a suspect. One 307 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: of the problems legally, speaking with recording the conversation is 308 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:08,120 Speaker 1: that in so doing it showed that he was a suspect. 309 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 1: But if you are a suspect, you should be cautioned 310 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 1: about your rights and your right to silence. But of 311 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,120 Speaker 1: course the police didn't want to caution him and put 312 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:22,120 Speaker 1: him on guard. They wanted him to feel reasonably comfortable 313 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 1: so that he might make further mistakes or admissions which 314 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 1: would firm up their suspicions about him. So it's understandable 315 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: what the police did because ultimately their job was to 316 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 1: find the remains of the dead people, and the only 317 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: way to do that was to keep their best suspect 318 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 1: on the hook without him breaking the line. Between July 319 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: and December that year twenty twenty, police checked out Lynn 320 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: with banks and government agencies. They obtained more images from 321 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 1: the cameras at Mount Hotham, they spoke to a witness 322 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: who had been in the area at the time, and 323 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: they went back to the hills to search again by 324 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: early December, so this ispot eight months after the disappearances. 325 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:13,440 Speaker 1: Other possible candidates had fallen away and Lynn had become 326 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 1: the focus of the investigation. He was under surveillance with 327 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:22,440 Speaker 1: GPS trackers, telephone intercepts, and bugs in his house and vehicle. 328 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,400 Speaker 1: Police spent most of the following year doing further searches, 329 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 1: including one at Howart Plains, where Kadava dogs were used 330 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 1: to check anywhere that Lynne might have camped since the murders. Meanwhile, 331 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 1: police were listening to Lynd's conversations, mostly him talking to himself. 332 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,159 Speaker 1: He had the professional pilots had as stating what he 333 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: was doing as he did it. A legacy of endless 334 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: hours piloting aircraft fitted with flight recorders monitoring Lyne's movements 335 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 1: in real time forced the case to a head. Brett 336 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 1: Florence and another detective were listening to Lynn speaking to 337 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: himself as he was driving in late November twenty twenty one, 338 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: so this is twenty months after the disappearance, and Lynn 339 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: appeared to be crying and talking to himself and talking 340 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 1: in the past tense about himself, and he was acting 341 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 1: in a quite a bizarre way and saying bizarre things, 342 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:21,919 Speaker 1: which was concerning to the police because they thought that 343 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:26,400 Speaker 1: he was so agitated and acting in such a way 344 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: that he could pose a danger to himself or to 345 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,120 Speaker 1: other people. He was heading back to the high Country 346 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: ostensibly to go hunting, but investigators feared he might be 347 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: planning suicide, so they had to make instant decisions to 348 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: protect the interests of the grieving families, the Hills and 349 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: the Clays. By this stage, police had no doubt that 350 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,919 Speaker 1: the missing pair had met violent deaths. Their duty to 351 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:56,120 Speaker 1: the distressed relatives in such cases is to extinguish all 352 00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 1: hope by finding human remains. They see that as their 353 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 1: main mission. After a year of watching and waiting, detectives 354 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 1: felt obliged to stop Lynn harming himself and to ask 355 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:14,880 Speaker 1: him to consider the family members desperate to locate their 356 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,680 Speaker 1: loved one's remains. In a crisis like this, the urgent 357 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: outweighs important, so police threw together a plan to stop Linn. 358 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: Special Operations Group members headed for the Hills in helicopters 359 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,640 Speaker 1: to intercept him at his camp at a place called 360 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,879 Speaker 1: h Buckle Junction. He didn't resist when he was surrounded 361 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: on November twenty second, twenty twenty one. He was armed 362 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:43,159 Speaker 1: with the SOG. Special Operations Group have ways of disarming people. 363 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:48,679 Speaker 1: Apprehending him seemed the humane thing to do, but it 364 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 1: skewed a copybook investigation. Now the police had to build 365 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 1: the plane after take off. As one of them said, 366 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 1: Lynn spent four days at Sale police station helping PA 367 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: with their inquiries. What he told them was correctly suppressed. 368 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,679 Speaker 1: He gave vital information because he steered investigators to another 369 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:14,400 Speaker 1: district up at wong Gara, which is past Dargo, where 370 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 1: they uncovered the remains of the missing victims a long 371 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: way from where they had been killed further west at Wonongata. 372 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 1: No details were released, naturally, but investigators undoubtedly discussed certain scenarios, 373 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,200 Speaker 1: such as Linn being upset by Hill's drone and getting 374 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:39,160 Speaker 1: into a confrontation with him. The likely scenario is, in fact, 375 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:43,439 Speaker 1: that Hill used the drone to film Linn engaged in 376 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 1: using guns in some way he shouldn't or whatever doing something. 377 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 1: Linn took objection, and they had a blue and Lin's 378 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 1: shot him, and then he said to kill the witness. 379 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 1: That is the logical explanation for what happened. A fight 380 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: between I when an old angry man and a younger 381 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 1: angry man ending in an inevitable result because one was 382 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 1: armed and inclined to kill things, as we found out since. 383 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 1: And then the chilling logical conclusion that he would kill 384 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 1: the only witness and try to get away with it 385 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: and destroy all the evidence in such a way that 386 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: he almost did get away with it. The summary of 387 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 1: police evidence is this the accused contaminated and staged the 388 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 1: crime scene, intentionally destroyed evidence within the crime scene, and 389 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: removed evidence from the crime scene before transporting and disposing 390 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: of the bodies and mobile devices to further conceal his 391 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 1: involvement and distance himself. In other words, he set fight 392 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 1: of the camp and fled with the bodies in his trailer, 393 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,440 Speaker 1: disposing of them a long way from modern Gatup. Then 394 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: disposed of the trailer, and then I returned to the 395 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 1: scene in May and the following November November eight months later, 396 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 1: where he burned the remains to a very fine ash 397 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 1: and dispersed the little bits so there were no big 398 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 1: pieces that could really carry much forensic investigation. The absence 399 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: of bodies did not stop the investigators. When Hill's mobile 400 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: phone went in the car the morning after the murders, 401 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 1: it created an electronic trail that led slowly but surely 402 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,679 Speaker 1: to Lynn's door. To a lay person, it might have 403 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 1: seemed inevitable that the accused would be convicted of a 404 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 1: double homicide on what it first appeared to be damning evidence, 405 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 1: but that perception was altered during the course of the trial. 406 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:54,399 Speaker 1: The absence of a contrarie version of events left open 407 00:27:54,800 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: a gap through which a brilliant defense council might well 408 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 1: steer a judge and jury, and as it turns out, 409 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:11,879 Speaker 1: the judge was steered through that gap. The jury was 410 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 1: a bit harder because the jury could not swallow despite 411 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 1: the legal contortions of the system and of the court, 412 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: they could not swallow the proposition that two people, two 413 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:35,360 Speaker 1: unarmed old pensioners, had both died instantaneously, as described by 414 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: the accused in separate incidents separated by a few minutes, 415 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: that one had been accidentally shot by a ricochet shot 416 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:49,959 Speaker 1: that had bounced off the mirror of the Toyota, and 417 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 1: that the other had died when he'd rushed at Greg 418 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 1: Lynn with a knife and fallen over and stabbed himself. 419 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:03,479 Speaker 1: The defense was that those two things happened, that they 420 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 1: both died accidentally instantly, because of course, if they hadn't 421 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 1: died instantly, if they were just wounded, either of them, 422 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: any decent Jetstar pilot would use a radio to radio 423 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 1: out to get help, or they would drive out to 424 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 1: get help, or they would do something to get help 425 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: for the wounded. But he did not do that. He 426 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 1: acted as if he was the murderer. And that was 427 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: in the end, the prosecution case, and that, in the 428 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: end was what the jury believed. Because the jury found 429 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 1: that although it couldn't make a safe finding of murder 430 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: about Russell Hill, that they would find Lynn guilty of 431 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: Carol Clay's murder because her murder was a cover up 432 00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: for an unlawful killing of Russell Hill. So in the end, 433 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 1: the jury found a way to fit itself through the 434 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 1: eye of the needle and find the accused guilty of 435 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: at least one of these killings. And that at this 436 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: point means that Greg Lynn should go to jail for 437 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 1: a very long time. However, as we sit here and 438 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 1: talk about this, there is no doubt that Greg Lynn 439 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 1: and his counsel will be considering an appeal, and so 440 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,479 Speaker 1: it may not be very long before we see an 441 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 1: appeal run. And it would not shock some legal observers 442 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: if such an appeal got up, if he walked on appeal. Now, 443 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 1: I'm no expert, and it'd be a shocking turn of events, 444 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 1: but it wouldn't necessarily surprise. Now. This has alarmed some observers, 445 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: including various stute lawyers who work in and around the media, 446 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: and one of them said to me this week that 447 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 1: this is a new thing in murder trials. It seems 448 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 1: to him because we have an accused who comes to 449 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 1: court with the presumption of innocence that we all enjoy. 450 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 1: We're all presumed innocent until proven guilty. That's fine, But 451 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,719 Speaker 1: also what this guy had when he came to court 452 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 1: was a total absence of damaging evidence because he had 453 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 1: very carefully destroyed every fragment of evidence. The bodies had 454 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 1: been destroyed so much that the scientists couldn't really reconstruct 455 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: any element of the crime scene and put forward a 456 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 1: coherent account of how he might have killed those people 457 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 1: for the prosecution to put up before a jury. And 458 00:31:55,360 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: because he destroyed the evidence, there was no evidence against him. Now. 459 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: Yoking together of the presumption of innocence and this destruction 460 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 1: of evidence means that this accused had a really good 461 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 1: walk up start on being acquitted. And most observers of 462 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 1: this trial are surprised that he was not acquitted, not 463 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 1: because they think he didn't do it, but because that 464 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 1: was the way the court seemed to be nudging the jurors. 465 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 1: In the end, the jury members were something that they 466 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 1: should be. They were light detectors. The beauty of a 467 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: jury is that twelve ordinary people can sit there and 468 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 1: listen to appear someone like themselves. The accused give evidence 469 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 1: or not. They can listen to all the witnesses for 470 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: and against, and make up their own mind on the 471 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 1: basis of their own common sense, their own life experience, 472 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: whether that case is safe and strong or not, and 473 00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: to acquit or convict based largely on the evidence, but 474 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 1: also on their own perception of the evidence and whether 475 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 1: they can trust any of it or all of it. 476 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 1: And these jurors in this case were effectively light detectors. 477 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 1: They detected a lie and they had the guts to 478 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 1: act on them. God bless them. Thanks for listening. Life 479 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 1: and Crimes is a Sunday Herald Sun production for true 480 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: crime Australia. Our producer is Johnty Burton. For my columns, 481 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: features and more, go to Heroldsun dot com dot au, 482 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 1: forward slash Andrew rule one word. For advertising inquiries, go 483 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: to news podcasts sold at news dot com dot au. 484 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 1: That is all one word news podcasts sold And if 485 00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 1: you want further information about this episode, links are in 486 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: the description.