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Speaker 1: Now, as I was saying just before the break, it's

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Speaker 1: been revealed a seven year old boy down in Mount

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Speaker 1: Gambia brought a kitchen knife to school this week and

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Speaker 1: threatened to kill classmates. It occurred at the Mount Gambia

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Speaker 1: at North Primary School on Monday. The school went into lockdown.

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Speaker 1: No one was injured. Police spoke to the child and

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Speaker 1: his parents. He's been suspended, other parents notified of the incident,

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Speaker 1: and the Education Department of course involved investigating, providing support

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Speaker 1: to the school, the teachers and other students there as well.

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Speaker 1: But certainly concerning doctor Darrel Cross, psychologist Daryl good morning,

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Speaker 1: thank you for your time.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, Matthew.

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Speaker 1: What would prompt a seven year old to do this?

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Speaker 2: Look, Matthew, this is just the icing on the cake.

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Speaker 2: This is not a one off for this child or

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Speaker 2: children like him. This child would have been identified long

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Speaker 2: ago at kindergarten, preschool, year one, year two as having

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Speaker 2: behavioral problems and a child at risk. So normally what

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Speaker 2: we find is this child would come from a chaotic background,

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Speaker 2: a dysfunctional background. I don't know anything about this child,

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Speaker 2: but in my experience, there may well be domestic violence, alcoholism, drugs,

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Speaker 2: and certainly the parenting style would be a shambles. So

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Speaker 2: we would have identified this child in the school system

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Speaker 2: very early on, but resources being stretched, not much would

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Speaker 2: have happened. And sadly, Matthew, what I would say to

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Speaker 2: you is that this child will probably go on to

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Speaker 2: juvenile offending and later criminality as morning follows night. We

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Speaker 2: can expect that if there's no real intervention. And I

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Speaker 2: don't mean just the odd behavioral program. I mean that's

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Speaker 2: just a band aid and a joke. We need serious intervention.

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Speaker 2: And he's not alone. And this is one of the

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Speaker 2: reasons too, why teachers are leaving in drones, because behavior

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Speaker 2: problems are escalating and it's hard enough teaching in any

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Speaker 2: any in anyone's language, let alone having major behavior problems

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Speaker 2: and children who have special needs.

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Speaker 1: Now, Darryl Okay, you say you don't know this, this child,

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Speaker 1: this your your assessment of all of that comes from experience.

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Speaker 1: I imagine what you've seen.

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Speaker 2: Yes, what I certainly, and I would have thought this

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Speaker 2: child had a string of behavioral problems before this. This

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Speaker 2: just would have been the one that that really came

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Speaker 2: to the four that's created havoc in the school. But

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Speaker 2: my experience with suggest that this child has a string

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Speaker 2: of behavioral issues would have been brought to the notice

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Speaker 2: of the school leaders and the teachers early on in

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Speaker 2: his schooling. This is not a one off event. I

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Speaker 2: can assure you of that absolutely.

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Speaker 1: Now seven year old, you'd think he's in maybe year two,

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Speaker 1: year three, the juvenile offending. You say that it is

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Speaker 1: likely to follow if things aren't address. Is that still

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Speaker 1: the case now, he's certainly been brought to everyone's attention.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that is still the case, because the attention he's

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Speaker 2: going to get will be if I can call it

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Speaker 2: mickey mouse or band aid, and if they were really serious,

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Speaker 2: and if education was really serious about addressing these issues,

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Speaker 2: it would be And I've said this on your program before,

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Speaker 2: it's called early intervention, Matthew. And early intervention doesn't mean

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Speaker 2: a bit of counseling for the child and the parents

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Speaker 2: and suspension. Early intervention means a withdrawal program in a

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Speaker 2: withdrawal unit that is multidisciplinary. And we had one of

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Speaker 2: those in essay in Melbourne Street where Ronald McDonald House

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Speaker 2: is now. It was staffed by education and it was

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Speaker 2: started by an allied health team from the Children's Hospital

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Speaker 2: at that time, and it brought these children into a

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Speaker 2: classroom setting, it worked with them individually with psychologists and

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Speaker 2: social workers. It worked with the parents individually, it worked

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Speaker 2: with the teachers individually, and it had the students in

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Speaker 2: there for at least the term, maybe two terms, three terms,

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Speaker 2: until we turned around the child and the parents and

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Speaker 2: gave the teacher skills. Now that's a withdrawal program. That's

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Speaker 2: appropriate intervention, because without that sort of intervention, you're whistling

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Speaker 2: in the wind. Nothing's going to happen, and the rest

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Speaker 2: of it is band aid and talk, and I can

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Speaker 2: assure you that with absolute guarantee.

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Speaker 1: So really, what you're saying is the child to be

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Speaker 1: taken away from the family for a while and re educated.

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Speaker 2: Well, he needs to be not necessarily taken away from

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Speaker 2: the child from the parents, but taken away from the

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Speaker 2: school in a withdrawal program with other children who experienced

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Speaker 2: similar problems, intensive interaction with teachers and school assistants, teacher age,

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Speaker 2: whatever you want to call them. And at the same time,

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Speaker 2: the parents and the students and the teachers all get

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Speaker 2: behavioral help on how to manage this child. I've seen

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Speaker 2: the behavior change, I've seen them go back into the classroom.

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Speaker 2: I've seen the parents get some schools under their belt,

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Speaker 2: and I've seen this program work. But every school ought

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Speaker 2: to have a withdrawal program, and if they can't, then

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Speaker 2: there ought to be a local withdrawal unit, which is

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Speaker 2: a feeder for a number of schools in the local area.

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Speaker 2: So it's definitely a withdrawal unit. He or she would

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Speaker 2: go back to the parents at night, but they would

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Speaker 2: come into a special school, a special restraal unit during

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Speaker 2: the day for intensive educational help and intensive therapy from

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Speaker 2: an allied team.

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Speaker 1: Now, there'd be a lot of children who are raised

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Speaker 1: in the type of environment you describe at the start

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Speaker 1: of our chat, shambolic essentially, who don't turn to violence.

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Speaker 1: What makes the small percentage you do do that?

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Speaker 2: Look, we'd probably say that that's a miracle. Yes, you're right,

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Speaker 2: occasionally it's rare, Matthew, But occasionally, and we don't really

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Speaker 2: know what the trigger is for that or what the

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Speaker 2: recipe is for that. It just seems that somehow or other. Normally,

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Speaker 2: what we do find is there might be a one

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Speaker 2: person in that child's life who's taken an interest in them.

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Speaker 2: It could be a sports coach, it could be a teacher,

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Speaker 2: be a next door neighbor, or it could be a grandparent.

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Speaker 2: But generally speaking, the children who bucked the mold, if

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Speaker 2: we can express it in that way, have generally got

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Speaker 2: someone in their background who's supported them, or been their ally,

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Speaker 2: or been their role model, because without that, it's highly

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Speaker 2: unlikely that they'll make it through without moving into criminality.

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Speaker 1: Of some thought, is it a cry for help? Is

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Speaker 1: that what we've seen this week?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Definitely, this is a family who's dysfunctional. I would expect,

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Speaker 2: as I said, I don't know the family, I don't

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Speaker 2: know who the child is, but I would expect it's

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Speaker 2: a child who's deeply, deeply distressed. Because of the acting out,

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Speaker 2: this child is highly troubled, and I expect the family

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Speaker 2: is too. The family would be in chaos, and there

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Speaker 2: would be trauma surrounding this family. And I can say

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Speaker 2: with some assurance that this is not a one off event.

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Speaker 2: There would have been other events that would have marked

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Speaker 2: this child out as a distressed child.

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Speaker 1: Darryl, Look, let me just put this to you. A

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Speaker 1: caller has texted in. A listener has texted in saying

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Speaker 1: that my TV only had on commercial stations the week

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Speaker 1: of the stabbing. I presume they mean the terror attack

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Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago in the church in Sydney.

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Speaker 1: I blame that for the copycat stabbing. They repeated it

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Speaker 1: over and over, five or more views at a time,

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Speaker 1: was often in child viewing time. This must stop. So

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Speaker 1: basically that's from Rosie. We're basically saying what's shown on

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Speaker 1: the news, we need to think more about that, and

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Speaker 1: maybe news becomes not so much G but very much

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Speaker 1: PG or M viewing.

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Speaker 2: Well. Look, I've often said when I was dealing in

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Speaker 2: the child therapy area, I often said to parents, don'tly

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Speaker 2: your children watch the news. Children can't handle that kind

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Speaker 2: of information. Remember, Matthew, their brains are very concrete, literal.

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Speaker 2: They can't engage in abstract thinking. I mean, if you

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Speaker 2: ask your child to think about next week, they'll say

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Speaker 2: to you within ours is next week here? Yet you try.

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Speaker 2: A child can't visage how far Christmas is or etc.

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Speaker 2: So they only have concrete, literal thinking. So to expose

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Speaker 2: them to issues on the news. And I've said to parents,

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Speaker 2: you want to watch the news, record it and watch

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Speaker 2: it once the child goes to bed. So yes, I agree,

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Speaker 2: that doesn't help, but that doesn't explain the action necessarily

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Speaker 2: that we're seeing. Because there are lots of children who

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Speaker 2: bring knives to school and other instruments as well.

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Speaker 1: They will appreciate your insights this morning.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you, Matthew.

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Speaker 1: Psychologist Daryl Cross speaking from experience on this type of issue,