WEBVTT - Cold blooded mass murder: Ted Bassingthwaighte Pt.1

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<v Speaker 1>The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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<v Speaker 1>Detective sy a side of life. The average person is

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<v Speaker 1>never exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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<v Speaker 1>For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what I did for a living. I was a

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<v Speaker 1>homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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<v Speaker 1>The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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<v Speaker 1>from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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<v Speaker 1>and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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<v Speaker 1>of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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<v Speaker 1>no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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<v Speaker 1>Join me now as I take you into this world.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to another episode that I Catch Killers. What drives

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<v Speaker 1>a person to brutally murder six innocent people? How can

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<v Speaker 1>one man's obsession and pathetic sense of self entitlement lead

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<v Speaker 1>to mass murder? Today we're going to talk to form

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<v Speaker 1>a new South Wales detective and a colleague of mine,

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<v Speaker 1>Ted Bassingwaite, who was a young detective, worked on the

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<v Speaker 1>Central massacre case in which a complete lay life Malcolm

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<v Speaker 1>George Baker killed six innocent people, including his ex girlfriend

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<v Speaker 1>and son. The controlled rage and brutality of that night

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<v Speaker 1>had a lasting impact on Ted and the people whose

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<v Speaker 1>loved ones were murdered in cold blood. He has written

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<v Speaker 1>a book titled Bloody Odyssey about the events leading up

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<v Speaker 1>to that massacre, what took place on the night, and

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<v Speaker 1>the aftermath. It's a harrowing account of mass murder on

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<v Speaker 1>a scale rarely seen in this country. Ted carries with

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<v Speaker 1>him the attention to detail which is part of being

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<v Speaker 1>a good detective. We're going to talk about the murder

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<v Speaker 1>of six people, and I think it's appropriate this stage

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<v Speaker 1>to mention the names of the six victims. Kerry Gannon,

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<v Speaker 1>Lisa Gannon, who is also eight months pregnant, Thomas Gannon,

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<v Speaker 1>David Baker, Ross Smith, Leslie Bred. They are all murdered

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<v Speaker 1>on the evening the twenty seventh of October nineteen ninety two.

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<v Speaker 1>Ted Bethnon. Wait, welcome to I Catch Killers.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you very much, Gary. I appreciate the chance to

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<v Speaker 2>talk about my book, Bloody Odyssey.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, it's been been a long time, hasn't it.

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<v Speaker 2>It has, mate, Yeah, it has. It's as I mentioned before,

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<v Speaker 2>when I met you. You haven't changed, and hopefully I

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<v Speaker 2>haven't changed.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we haven't aged a bit.

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<v Speaker 2>We have an aged a bit.

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<v Speaker 1>I've got the same hairstyle.

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<v Speaker 2>You've got the same hairstyle. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it was the early nineties when we started

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<v Speaker 1>working together in North Region crimes.

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<v Speaker 2>It was it was nineteen ninety five, I believe. And

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<v Speaker 2>I came up from a Newcastle where I was working

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<v Speaker 2>in the North Region office in Newcastle in the child

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<v Speaker 2>Protection unit and I had a personal issue where a

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<v Speaker 2>marriage failed basically and I had to I chose to

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<v Speaker 2>leave Newcastle and it was very fortunate to get a

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<v Speaker 2>job firstly in the Gosford drugs, good place I didn't

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<v Speaker 2>want to be. And a friend of mine, Phil Vickery,

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<v Speaker 2>who was a sergeant at the Child Protection in Chatswood,

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<v Speaker 2>spoke to the at the time Ron Smith, and they

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<v Speaker 2>gave me a chance and I joined the team there

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<v Speaker 2>in major crime. Chatswould right next to your office.

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<v Speaker 1>Some of the I in my memory and recollection of

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<v Speaker 1>the cops. It was some of the best years in

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<v Speaker 1>my time. I enjoyed that so much. And when we

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<v Speaker 1>reconnected a month or so ago and we're talking and

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't realize well, I realized that you and Peter

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<v Speaker 1>Harkness had got together. But love's found the way and

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<v Speaker 1>you're still together.

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<v Speaker 2>Love. Love did find a way. It certainly didn't bloom

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<v Speaker 2>immediately in that office. Peter was she's twelve years younger

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<v Speaker 2>than me and saw me as damage goods probably, But

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<v Speaker 2>we worked together very closely in that office. And then

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<v Speaker 2>it's so funny the course of events. And during that

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<v Speaker 2>time we did a lot of work in your office

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<v Speaker 2>with you guys, and we had the workload of the

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<v Speaker 2>child protection there was immense And the Royal Commission happened

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<v Speaker 2>in ninety five ninety six, and the impetus on the

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<v Speaker 2>second phase of the Royal Comision, the peder segment. They

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<v Speaker 2>were keen to change the way police were doing child

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<v Speaker 2>sexual assault investigations. And Peter and I were basically taken

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<v Speaker 2>out of that office after the Royal Commission and forced

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<v Speaker 2>transferred into an office in Redfern. But we had to

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<v Speaker 2>travel back to the Northern Beaches to do our job

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<v Speaker 2>because in essence, the Royal Commission created a situation where

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<v Speaker 2>we weren't trusted. We needed this big command of control

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<v Speaker 2>over us, which happened with all the crime squads at

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<v Speaker 2>the time, as you remember, with the organizational structure and

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<v Speaker 2>changes that happened. And when we moved to Redfern, we

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<v Speaker 2>became really close and over time we realized we were

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<v Speaker 2>falling in love. And then I got a job at

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<v Speaker 2>the academy, teaching on the detectives on the investigator's course

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<v Speaker 2>at the Academy, and Peter went to the fraud squad

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<v Speaker 2>and then we thought we love each other, and then

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<v Speaker 2>both and I said to her one day, after twelve

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<v Speaker 2>months at the academy, I said, there's two jobs going

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<v Speaker 2>in the country, one a detective at Noarandra and a

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<v Speaker 2>detective at Griffith. Do you want to come? At that

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<v Speaker 2>time we're just boyfriend and girlfriend said yes, So we

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<v Speaker 2>ended up going time.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to have to change the name to catch killers?

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<v Speaker 1>Do I find love of recent times? All the police

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<v Speaker 1>I get on the found relationships. Maybe we should have

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<v Speaker 1>spent more time, more time concentrating on the work than

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<v Speaker 1>looking for love.

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<v Speaker 2>Well for sure, But Garry on reflection, you know, when

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<v Speaker 2>you're in those intense work for places that we're in

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<v Speaker 2>and you're working so closely with somebody, it's not it's

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<v Speaker 2>hard to have a normal life and your partner in

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<v Speaker 2>the work sense. Peter and I just became partners in

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<v Speaker 2>a work sense. It just grew into that relationship. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>later on down the year, psychiatrists have said we're co

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<v Speaker 2>dependent on each other, which I don't see that as

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<v Speaker 2>a bad thing because we survived together and we're still together.

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<v Speaker 1>No, it's beneficial to have someone that understands the work

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<v Speaker 1>that you're going through. And yeah, there were some pretty

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<v Speaker 1>intense times. I think I started first working with Peter

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<v Speaker 1>when she was working on the North Shore rapist case

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<v Speaker 1>with Jaco and Andy Waterman. Who ya at your stage

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<v Speaker 1>of your career, my stage all looked up to those

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<v Speaker 1>guys that was working with the legends.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely absolutely, And I know Peter from memory. Peter was

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<v Speaker 2>picked for that job because of her interviewing skills and

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<v Speaker 2>her high level detective skills. And she didn't realize at

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<v Speaker 2>the time, but she was quite privileged to be in

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<v Speaker 2>that position. I mean a lot of a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>others around her would would have envied her that position.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we're working working with legends like Paul Jacob and

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<v Speaker 1>Andy Andy Wardoman. That's where I attribute those two for

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<v Speaker 1>teaching me my trade. Absolutely detective, but they were good

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<v Speaker 1>years and I think the culture that we had, and yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>there was shame that came to all major crime detectives

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<v Speaker 1>when the Royal Commission came through. But I've got to

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<v Speaker 1>say the respect I had for the people that were

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<v Speaker 1>our bosses at the time at North Region that I

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<v Speaker 1>haven't found something like that in the cops since at

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<v Speaker 1>that time.

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<v Speaker 2>No definitely changed. It was more about there was a

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<v Speaker 2>more collegiate approach in the crime squad with the bosses

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<v Speaker 2>that we had. I mean, you could have had bosses

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<v Speaker 2>who really just treated us as numbers. But I think

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<v Speaker 2>Ron Smith and the bosses that I met with the

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<v Speaker 2>crime squad, John Heslop, even when I went over to

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<v Speaker 2>Redfern to the new sex crime Squad, that they had

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<v Speaker 2>your back in a lot of sense. But then eventually

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<v Speaker 2>over time bureaucracy kind of got on top of them.

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<v Speaker 1>I often think about leadership in the police and I remember,

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<v Speaker 1>like Ron as a boss and I was fortunate enough

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<v Speaker 1>to also have Nick Cowdos as a boss as well.

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<v Speaker 2>He trained Peter as a UC. Well, she.

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<v Speaker 1>Is blessed she's be trained by the masters. But you

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<v Speaker 1>did the right thing and you worked for those people.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think the difference with what I see with

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<v Speaker 1>some of the leadership now and even before I left

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<v Speaker 1>left the police, is that the people that were leading

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<v Speaker 1>you had done the work. And I think in an

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<v Speaker 1>organization like the police, that counts for so much. Absolutely, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>if Ron Smith tells me to do something, I do

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<v Speaker 1>it because I know he's done it before. And like

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<v Speaker 1>I worked under Paul Mager and then Paul Jacob and

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<v Speaker 1>Andy Warterman getting advice about homicide, well they'd been there,

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<v Speaker 1>done that, and they were people that you wanted to

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<v Speaker 1>do the right thing by because the respect that you had.

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<v Speaker 2>And they're not pretending and that and obviously that all

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<v Speaker 2>changed after the Royal Commission and they increased the layers

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<v Speaker 2>of accountability with inspectors and you had people being promoted

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<v Speaker 2>way above beyond their experience. Then it just become too

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<v Speaker 2>bure Greek. They wanted to break up the bureaucracy which

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<v Speaker 2>they saw has potentially corrupt or inert, and created a

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<v Speaker 2>bigger bureaucracy that made it more inert.

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<v Speaker 1>And we lost lost the focus. And I think when

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<v Speaker 1>I look back speaking to you and Peter, who was

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<v Speaker 1>with the catch up before we started the podcast that

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<v Speaker 1>at those those times we were allowed to concentrate on

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<v Speaker 1>being detective. That's right, that was the sole focus. It

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't about all these management and filling out these forms.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, we're running the business as a profit.

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<v Speaker 1>Well it's not a business. It's a police now, and

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<v Speaker 1>accountability is important. But accountability at the cost of proficiency,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, and outcomes is not good. And that's what's

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<v Speaker 1>happened subsequently. I wonder why, in part that's the reason

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<v Speaker 1>we're having trouble attracting people to the police across across

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<v Speaker 1>the country because something that saddens me that all the police,

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<v Speaker 1>all the state police forces, federal police force, all seemed

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<v Speaker 1>to be struggling with resourcing the police. And I think

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<v Speaker 1>back at the times that we had it was the

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<v Speaker 1>world's greatest job.

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<v Speaker 2>There was the world's greatest job. And you know, there's

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<v Speaker 2>multiple issues. I think that the increase of social media,

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<v Speaker 2>the increase of accountability, hasn't been matched by an increase

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<v Speaker 2>in income or end or support or end or career development.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I think police in the field now may

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<v Speaker 2>very well feel a bit more isolated. I never felt

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<v Speaker 2>isolated wherever I was, whatever job I was. Even when

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<v Speaker 2>I worked in the as a country detective down in Arrange,

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<v Speaker 2>out by myself in the middle of the night, I

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<v Speaker 2>just knew that someone was going to be there from

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<v Speaker 2>a bus down to colleague was. Now I get the

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<v Speaker 2>sense that that's not the same. I actually had an

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<v Speaker 2>experience recently where I had a conversation with a young

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<v Speaker 2>constable and he was his counter skills were very non existent.

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<v Speaker 2>There wasn't any person any service approach at the counter.

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<v Speaker 2>And then I got to talk to him about it, Toddy,

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<v Speaker 2>I was retired, and then I'm talking about my environment

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<v Speaker 2>with the Police Association and all that sort of stuff,

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<v Speaker 2>and he was just so negative about everything that's going

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<v Speaker 2>on in the job. And I could see it on

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<v Speaker 2>his face and I could feel it in the room.

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<v Speaker 2>And I thought to himself like, and I said, how

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<v Speaker 2>much service have you got? He said two and a

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<v Speaker 2>half years, And I thought, you know, I don't know

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<v Speaker 2>how it's got to that.

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<v Speaker 1>I think there's a lot of pressure on junior police

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<v Speaker 1>because yeah, and again if I reference it to what

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<v Speaker 1>we met in major crime, yes, that you find yourself

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<v Speaker 1>in tough pressure positions on investigations. You know, do I

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<v Speaker 1>go left? I do go right. What I could go

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<v Speaker 1>to people like Paul Jacob, Paul mager Ronson and say, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>this is the lemma I've got, and they would give

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<v Speaker 1>me good sage advice on how to deal with the

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<v Speaker 1>situation because they've been there and done that. I worry,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm looking from the outside as you are. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>worried that sort of experience has been lost and so

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<v Speaker 1>the young people. It's a blind leading the blind. Then

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<v Speaker 1>they gave you a boss to ask for advice on

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<v Speaker 1>the homicide, and that boss may have never worked a homicide.

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<v Speaker 2>In this case. Yeah, exactly, You're exactly right. You know

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<v Speaker 2>I had the same situation with Phil Vickery, my sergeant

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<v Speaker 2>in the child protection there at Chatswood. You know that

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<v Speaker 2>you just felt like you could make a mistake and

0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:34.480
<v Speaker 2>then own up to it and then get the right

0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:36.320
<v Speaker 2>guidance and then just get.

0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:38.520
<v Speaker 1>And like Phil had all that experience, like he was

0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:41.560
<v Speaker 1>from the under the expert in that era. All right, well,

0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:44.600
<v Speaker 1>we've got slightly distracted, but happened.

0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:46.000
<v Speaker 2>Don't get me started worry about the police.

0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:51.400
<v Speaker 1>When old colleagues catch up. Why did you join the cops?

0:11:51.679 --> 0:11:55.679
<v Speaker 2>Well I had I was saying, before to your producer.

0:11:56.600 --> 0:11:59.080
<v Speaker 2>I did an apprenticeship as a pastry cook when I

0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:01.520
<v Speaker 2>was a young man because I surfed and pastry cooks

0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:03.720
<v Speaker 2>could work all night and surf all day. And I

0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:06.720
<v Speaker 2>was quite unsettled throughout my life. I didn't really know

0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:08.120
<v Speaker 2>what I wanted to do. I know, when I was

0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:10.240
<v Speaker 2>a young man, I had a conversation once with my

0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:13.040
<v Speaker 2>mother that I wanted to be a policeman, and she said,

0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:15.720
<v Speaker 2>that's not going to happen. She's a Bankstown girl, and

0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:18.840
<v Speaker 2>she said, I hate coppers. And I never really went

0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:21.320
<v Speaker 2>down that path. So I did the pastry cooking and

0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:23.880
<v Speaker 2>then went back to school and was kind of like

0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:28.040
<v Speaker 2>I was lost in a sense. And it was only

0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:32.680
<v Speaker 2>after I started a nursing or became a psych nurse.

0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:34.120
<v Speaker 1>That's right, I forgot.

0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:36.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I did a psych nasing. Well, I did.

0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:39.640
<v Speaker 2>Before that, I did some journalism or surf journalism. I wrote.

0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:42.040
<v Speaker 2>I wrote for a surf magazine and did so I

0:12:42.080 --> 0:12:44.360
<v Speaker 2>had an interest in writing. But then I did the

0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:46.800
<v Speaker 2>pych nursing and I really loved it. And in hindsight

0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:49.040
<v Speaker 2>reflect on it, my three sisters and nurses, and my

0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:51.000
<v Speaker 2>grandmother was a nurse, so it was kind of the

0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:52.719
<v Speaker 2>way I was going to go. But I really loved

0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:55.000
<v Speaker 2>the psych nursing because it was intense, but it was

0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:57.800
<v Speaker 2>a helping profession and I learned a lot, a lot

0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:01.760
<v Speaker 2>of skills. But when I turned thirty thirty one the

0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:03.720
<v Speaker 2>New South I was police force in those days, recruited

0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:06.360
<v Speaker 2>really heavily in Newcastle and they took a lot of tradees,

0:13:07.000 --> 0:13:10.480
<v Speaker 2>a lot of people with life experience. So at thirty

0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:13.520
<v Speaker 2>two I just applied and got in. So on that

0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:16.680
<v Speaker 2>seventh of May I started at the Police Academy at

0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:19.400
<v Speaker 2>Goldben and I knew the moment I walked in the

0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:21.720
<v Speaker 2>gate at Gobin on that day, this is what I

0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:24.080
<v Speaker 2>want to do. It just felt right, garyt. You know,

0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:26.760
<v Speaker 2>like I never I never had a moment's reflection of

0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:29.760
<v Speaker 2>this is a shit job. Even though I'd been over

0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:32.200
<v Speaker 2>the years, had been in some really difficult situations. I

0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:34.440
<v Speaker 2>always felt that this is what I wanted to do.

0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:37.760
<v Speaker 2>And I was asked before by your producer, how do

0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:39.240
<v Speaker 2>I feel about And I said if they rang me

0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:43.000
<v Speaker 2>and asked me to come back tomorrow, I probably would

0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:47.400
<v Speaker 2>because you know, I feel that was my vocation, that

0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:48.320
<v Speaker 2>was my mission in life.

0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:51.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you're fortunately in life, aren't you if you find

0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:54.520
<v Speaker 1>something that you're passionate about and you're getting paid to

0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:57.120
<v Speaker 1>do it. That's how I felt with the cops too,

0:13:57.160 --> 0:13:59.880
<v Speaker 1>and exactly as you relate. At the moment I walked

0:13:59.880 --> 0:14:03.040
<v Speaker 1>in the academy, I thought, Yep, this is what I

0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:04.959
<v Speaker 1>want to do. They're yelling at you, screaming at you,

0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:07.000
<v Speaker 1>and you're having a bit of fun and they're paying you,

0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:08.720
<v Speaker 1>and I'm thinking, how good is this?

0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:12.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? That was. We had two hundred plus and mostly

0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:14.920
<v Speaker 2>men and actually the police commissioners current police commissions out

0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:18.080
<v Speaker 2>of my class, Karen web we had had. It was

0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:20.760
<v Speaker 2>just a great environment of people from all around the place,

0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:22.680
<v Speaker 2>mostly young. I was thirty two, so I was one.

0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:23.880
<v Speaker 1>Of the old one.

0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:25.600
<v Speaker 2>There's a couple older than me, but not many. And

0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:28.560
<v Speaker 2>then my first station at WI, straight up, it was

0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:31.440
<v Speaker 2>just like it felt like people I'd known all my life.

0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:34.560
<v Speaker 2>It felt no strangers, and it felt like that everywhere

0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:34.840
<v Speaker 2>I went.

0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:38.160
<v Speaker 1>Basically, and what drew you to becoming a detective.

0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:41.080
<v Speaker 2>Well, oddly enough, once I got into the police station

0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:44.200
<v Speaker 2>and I was in uniform work, I just didn't I

0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:48.320
<v Speaker 2>just wasn't stimulated by being in uniform, whether I had

0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:50.920
<v Speaker 2>an inquiring mind, or I had a bigger ego or whatever,

0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:54.120
<v Speaker 2>and I was very fortunate. Why the detective sergeant there

0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:56.960
<v Speaker 2>was a Bill Erickson, and I had a meal room

0:14:57.000 --> 0:14:58.800
<v Speaker 2>conversation with him one day he said I'd like to

0:14:58.840 --> 0:15:00.760
<v Speaker 2>have a go, and he rolled his eyes and thought

0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:04.760
<v Speaker 2>everyone asked me that. And then I just persisted, and eventually,

0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:08.400
<v Speaker 2>after twelve or eighty months in uniform, I was given

0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:10.840
<v Speaker 2>an a list spot. While it just happened that one

0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:13.280
<v Speaker 2>came up. It's about opportunity. One came up, and I

0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:14.960
<v Speaker 2>was given an aily spot and then went through the

0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:18.560
<v Speaker 2>process of the investigator's course and then eventually the d's course,

0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:22.280
<v Speaker 2>mentored by some really good police like Dave Darcy. He

0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:26.280
<v Speaker 2>was a mentor there. Peter Ryan. You probably don't know

0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:30.120
<v Speaker 2>George Adrian Ducker, Peter Donaldson.

0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:32.880
<v Speaker 1>I know Blue Ducker, Blue Daker. Yeah.

0:15:33.000 --> 0:15:35.440
<v Speaker 2>Felt great for me. And because I came to that

0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:38.000
<v Speaker 2>role as a mature thirty to thirty two year old,

0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:40.560
<v Speaker 2>I never had any I kind of fitted in with

0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:40.960
<v Speaker 2>the crew.

0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:44.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know, and you had that life experience and

0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:47.480
<v Speaker 1>way to navigate through large characters. Yeah, that's right, and

0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:52.720
<v Speaker 1>navigate your way through ted We got you on here

0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:56.920
<v Speaker 1>talking about crime that I don't think for some reason.

0:15:56.920 --> 0:15:59.520
<v Speaker 1>I think it happened so suddenly, but people don't fully

0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:02.920
<v Speaker 1>appreciate it. But murder of six people on one night

0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:07.200
<v Speaker 1>on the Central Coast is the Central Coast massacre. And yeah,

0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:09.320
<v Speaker 1>it doesn't get spoken about a lot, but it was

0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:13.560
<v Speaker 1>such a horrendous crime. And I've spent the past week

0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:17.360
<v Speaker 1>reading your book and it sort of brought back all

0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:21.800
<v Speaker 1>the things that happened on that crime. Yeah, you were

0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:23.280
<v Speaker 1>you were a young detective at the time.

0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:28.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well I was designated. I got designated around about

0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:30.520
<v Speaker 2>that time, so yeah, I was relatively green.

0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:32.720
<v Speaker 1>Yes, And we're working on the Central Cast.

0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:36.680
<v Speaker 2>Working at a while attached to the wildlof as Wines detectives.

0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:38.800
<v Speaker 1>On did you ever think? And I want to break

0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:41.680
<v Speaker 1>just so we know and say the listeners know how

0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:43.240
<v Speaker 1>we're going to do this. I want you to tell

0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:46.200
<v Speaker 1>us a full story, but before do just an overview

0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:49.480
<v Speaker 1>of it. That's a serious crime. Did that shock you

0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:51.440
<v Speaker 1>the magnitude of the crime and the.

0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:53.680
<v Speaker 2>Nightly did on the night? I mean the apprehension that

0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:56.960
<v Speaker 2>me and Steve Potter, the young a lister that attended

0:16:57.000 --> 0:16:58.960
<v Speaker 2>one of the crime scenes with a three separate crime

0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:01.640
<v Speaker 2>scenes across the whole. So every detective on the central coast,

0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:03.920
<v Speaker 2>across three l a c. What do they call patrols

0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:05.760
<v Speaker 2>or l A C's, whatever they were called in those days,

0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:09.040
<v Speaker 2>was involved and and it was quite shocking, but it

0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:12.680
<v Speaker 2>was it was very exciting as well in a sense

0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:14.800
<v Speaker 2>because it was the biggest thing that I that i'd

0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:15.320
<v Speaker 2>been involved.

0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:19.040
<v Speaker 1>Well, reading the book, I the adrenaline was kicking in.

0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:22.200
<v Speaker 1>I'm thinking, yeah, the chaos that the surrounds an event

0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:25.640
<v Speaker 1>like that, yes, and not an adrenaline then that you're

0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:28.520
<v Speaker 1>looking for the blood or no, no, no, the excitement

0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:30.719
<v Speaker 1>that's just okay, this is this is as real as

0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:31.160
<v Speaker 1>it gets.

0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:33.480
<v Speaker 2>A big career tests and I wanted to do it properly,

0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:35.280
<v Speaker 2>and Steve and I, you know, we were given the

0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:38.360
<v Speaker 2>responsibility of that crime scene and doing and doing statements,

0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:41.000
<v Speaker 2>knowing full well that everything you said and did eventually

0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:43.520
<v Speaker 2>could end up in a in a high court situation.

0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:46.800
<v Speaker 1>Basically, you basically got a gunman on the rage going

0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:49.639
<v Speaker 1>around just killing killing people. So I want to I

0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:51.679
<v Speaker 1>want to break it down in the chronology of it

0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:55.160
<v Speaker 1>and not dissimilar in the way that you've you've set

0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:58.119
<v Speaker 1>out the book, but let's talk about the offend. The

0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:01.359
<v Speaker 1>first up, Malcolm Baker, who is who is a person?

0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:06.000
<v Speaker 2>Malcolm Baker was born into a family a mother, father,

0:18:06.040 --> 0:18:09.320
<v Speaker 2>two sisters. His father was a returned soldier from the

0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:11.720
<v Speaker 2>Second World War, but he came back from the war

0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:14.160
<v Speaker 2>completely damaged. Came back from the war with a lot

0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:18.199
<v Speaker 2>of souvenirs like spears and whatever, and came back completely

0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:22.520
<v Speaker 2>addicted to guns. So in the sixties and whatever, he

0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:27.760
<v Speaker 2>had this family situation with his wife, son and two daughters,

0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:30.000
<v Speaker 2>and I think Malcolm was the second born, and it

0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:32.360
<v Speaker 2>was just fear. It was one of those situations where

0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:36.040
<v Speaker 2>he was a drunk. They lived their life in fear.

0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:38.159
<v Speaker 2>So Backer grew up in a house where it was

0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:41.840
<v Speaker 2>just constant fear, constant violence from his father in the

0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:46.000
<v Speaker 2>initial sense. His father did things like threatening them with

0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:48.800
<v Speaker 2>threatened the family with firearms. He'd let a firearm off

0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:51.480
<v Speaker 2>at at his wife and friend, talking over the fence,

0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:56.119
<v Speaker 2>and accuser of infidelity and punching his wife. A hell

0:18:56.160 --> 0:18:57.800
<v Speaker 2>of a lots a lot of domestic violence. And he

0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:00.000
<v Speaker 2>saw all this. At the times he tried to intervene,

0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:03.119
<v Speaker 2>he was knocked unconscious on one occasion, and he was

0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:06.640
<v Speaker 2>beaten on other occasions by his father. And I don't

0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:08.239
<v Speaker 2>want to make an excuse for the guy, because you've

0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:11.320
<v Speaker 2>got to be responsible for your actions in life. And

0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:16.199
<v Speaker 2>he had a shit start really in that context, and

0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:21.879
<v Speaker 2>then he actually subsumed some of his father's personality traits

0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:28.200
<v Speaker 2>cruelty like vanity, uncontrollable rage, all those sort of things

0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:30.639
<v Speaker 2>that he saw on his father. Baker wasn't a drinker

0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:33.480
<v Speaker 2>and didn't have a drug problem. He didn't come to

0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:36.160
<v Speaker 2>that is a petty criminal as he's growing up doing

0:19:36.520 --> 0:19:39.480
<v Speaker 2>stealing cars last knear. He's a bit of a fraudster

0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:43.320
<v Speaker 2>as well. So he's so everasually became a minime of

0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:46.600
<v Speaker 2>his dad in a sense if you can read what

0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:49.280
<v Speaker 2>the evidence, which is scant, the evidence that we have

0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:52.960
<v Speaker 2>about his dad from psychological reports that I researched, and

0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:59.680
<v Speaker 2>in doing that, he developed this hate for the opposite

0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:04.399
<v Speaker 2>sex when he was quite capable of having women in

0:20:04.440 --> 0:20:07.960
<v Speaker 2>his life. He had three wives or four wives, nine

0:20:08.040 --> 0:20:11.399
<v Speaker 2>children before he got to the point of carry Anne

0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:16.680
<v Speaker 2>Kerrian Gannon. But in all those previous relationships that all

0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:19.560
<v Speaker 2>the reporting is that he was violent, he was abusive,

0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:23.800
<v Speaker 2>He was coercive control. He used coercive control, He was jealous,

0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:26.600
<v Speaker 2>all those things which I think he's bringing to his

0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:28.200
<v Speaker 2>adult life from his dad.

0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:34.040
<v Speaker 1>It was like reading the book on how it came out.

0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:37.439
<v Speaker 1>It was like a sense of entitlement and ownership of

0:20:37.640 --> 0:20:38.720
<v Speaker 1>a woman that he's with.

0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:43.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. True, Gary, It's not something that I can understand

0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:46.399
<v Speaker 2>as a mar I'm a heterosexual male, and at no

0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:49.800
<v Speaker 2>point have I ever wanted to do what it's reported, Baker,

0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:52.240
<v Speaker 2>did you know punching women in the face, for instance,

0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:55.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, ruling their life that they can't go out,

0:20:55.080 --> 0:20:57.199
<v Speaker 2>won't letting them, won't let them work, won't let them

0:20:57.240 --> 0:21:00.720
<v Speaker 2>have a social life, accusing them of infidelity, and all

0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:03.880
<v Speaker 2>those sorts of things. That the horror that the women

0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:06.040
<v Speaker 2>that were in his life, some of them didn't hang

0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:08.840
<v Speaker 2>around for very long. The horror that he inflicted on

0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:12.920
<v Speaker 2>those women would be unmatched in a sense. And it's

0:21:12.960 --> 0:21:15.240
<v Speaker 2>quite typical of what we see is going on around

0:21:15.280 --> 0:21:16.000
<v Speaker 2>society today.

0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:19.360
<v Speaker 1>Well, and happily that we're starting to use the term

0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:22.960
<v Speaker 1>coercive control. And I think that's something that we're becoming

0:21:23.000 --> 0:21:25.240
<v Speaker 1>aware of. We know the patterns, you see the patterns,

0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:27.720
<v Speaker 1>but we didn't really have a word to place on it,

0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:32.159
<v Speaker 1>but the word, Yeah, we're starting to talk about that

0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:35.439
<v Speaker 1>and understanding the impact. So he not only had the

0:21:35.480 --> 0:21:38.159
<v Speaker 1>controlling aspect in the coercive control, it was also the

0:21:38.160 --> 0:21:39.360
<v Speaker 1>physical abuse.

0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:42.480
<v Speaker 2>Physical abuse as well. Yeah, in the case of carry,

0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:45.040
<v Speaker 2>and he obviously didn't want it to work, didn't want

0:21:45.080 --> 0:21:47.680
<v Speaker 2>to have any finances, didn't want her to see anybody,

0:21:47.720 --> 0:21:49.359
<v Speaker 2>didn't want it to have any friends. It was only,

0:21:49.400 --> 0:21:53.040
<v Speaker 2>as I say reporting the book, that once she got

0:21:53.080 --> 0:21:57.560
<v Speaker 2>away from his grip, his psychological grip or coercive grip,

0:21:57.840 --> 0:22:02.320
<v Speaker 2>that things improved for her, but unfortunately turned really pair shape.

0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:05.200
<v Speaker 1>For the just blind obsession and jealousy that ye him

0:22:05.200 --> 0:22:05.680
<v Speaker 1>to come about.

0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:10.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely absolutely, But getting to know the man through

0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:14.040
<v Speaker 2>the research, we actually met him in the first instance

0:22:14.040 --> 0:22:16.600
<v Speaker 2>at a fraud doing a fraud investigation, which has talked

0:22:16.600 --> 0:22:19.359
<v Speaker 2>about in the book, So I had first hand knowledge

0:22:19.400 --> 0:22:22.480
<v Speaker 2>of who he was in his presence. But yeah, the

0:22:22.600 --> 0:22:28.040
<v Speaker 2>jealousy thing was just all consuming, and I just don't

0:22:28.119 --> 0:22:30.919
<v Speaker 2>understand how that is when it was actually to his

0:22:31.000 --> 0:22:33.360
<v Speaker 2>detriment that he the way he behaved and the things

0:22:33.400 --> 0:22:35.000
<v Speaker 2>that he did because he was just leaving a trail

0:22:35.080 --> 0:22:37.359
<v Speaker 2>of human wreckage behind him happened.

0:22:38.080 --> 0:22:40.440
<v Speaker 1>Did they ever get called into account for the previous

0:22:40.640 --> 0:22:42.520
<v Speaker 1>relationships and the domestic violence.

0:22:43.119 --> 0:22:45.879
<v Speaker 2>There's no record of that, so that that was just

0:22:46.200 --> 0:22:49.679
<v Speaker 2>the day that women report it. Yeah, you know, and

0:22:49.720 --> 0:22:52.400
<v Speaker 2>that's part of the reason that it was so endemic

0:22:52.440 --> 0:22:54.480
<v Speaker 2>in those days, and probably part of the reason that's

0:22:54.480 --> 0:22:55.320
<v Speaker 2>still a big problem.

0:22:55.320 --> 0:22:58.680
<v Speaker 1>And without being psychologist, probably emboldens him to think, well,

0:22:58.680 --> 0:23:00.800
<v Speaker 1>I've got the way of it before. That's right, I

0:23:00.840 --> 0:23:01.800
<v Speaker 1>can get away over it again.

0:23:01.880 --> 0:23:04.119
<v Speaker 2>That's right. Well, they had some of the women that

0:23:04.160 --> 0:23:06.560
<v Speaker 2>have interviewed in the book, they're in the book ex Wives.

0:23:06.960 --> 0:23:10.520
<v Speaker 2>They relied on him because he became the breadwinner or whatever.

0:23:11.080 --> 0:23:12.800
<v Speaker 2>There might have been a case where they were getting

0:23:13.440 --> 0:23:16.520
<v Speaker 2>sendling benefits or whatever. But in those days, and I

0:23:16.560 --> 0:23:19.280
<v Speaker 2>reflect on my mother's and father and my young family.

0:23:19.640 --> 0:23:22.800
<v Speaker 2>You know, my mom and dad weren't in a very

0:23:22.800 --> 0:23:26.280
<v Speaker 2>happy relationship, but they stayed together out of necessity for

0:23:26.320 --> 0:23:28.679
<v Speaker 2>each other, out of necessity the state, for the family

0:23:28.720 --> 0:23:30.440
<v Speaker 2>and whatever. And this is what happened with some of

0:23:30.480 --> 0:23:32.240
<v Speaker 2>the women, some of the previous wives.

0:23:32.440 --> 0:23:33.560
<v Speaker 1>They hung in there longer.

0:23:33.480 --> 0:23:35.199
<v Speaker 2>Hung in there, longer than they should have, until he

0:23:35.240 --> 0:23:37.840
<v Speaker 2>got to the point where where they feared for their life.

0:23:39.040 --> 0:23:42.200
<v Speaker 1>Well, there weren't. There weren't many options and still there's

0:23:42.200 --> 0:23:45.359
<v Speaker 1>not enough options now for women to escape from them.

0:23:45.560 --> 0:23:50.760
<v Speaker 2>No refugees, no DV services, the police, you know, we

0:23:50.840 --> 0:23:53.080
<v Speaker 2>know what the police. How the police reacted to DV

0:23:53.240 --> 0:23:55.639
<v Speaker 2>matters in the nineties and the early eighties, you know,

0:23:56.000 --> 0:23:57.520
<v Speaker 2>a completely different approach.

0:23:58.200 --> 0:24:01.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so when what was the circumstances in which he

0:24:01.760 --> 0:24:04.800
<v Speaker 1>met Kerry. Well they were a Gannon.

0:24:04.560 --> 0:24:07.720
<v Speaker 2>Kerry and Gannon. They were in the western suburbs of

0:24:07.720 --> 0:24:16.120
<v Speaker 2>Sydney and apparently Baker was married at the time, and

0:24:16.800 --> 0:24:21.159
<v Speaker 2>over time he just convinced her because she was sixteen

0:24:21.240 --> 0:24:24.040
<v Speaker 2>years of age at the time, nineteen eighty five, and

0:24:24.119 --> 0:24:26.719
<v Speaker 2>he was twenty plus years older than her. And you

0:24:26.760 --> 0:24:30.040
<v Speaker 2>can imagine this man who has this skill of this

0:24:30.080 --> 0:24:33.720
<v Speaker 2>coercive control skill or this the influence he had on

0:24:33.760 --> 0:24:36.800
<v Speaker 2>this sixteen year old girl and she just fell into

0:24:36.800 --> 0:24:37.200
<v Speaker 2>his spell.

0:24:37.320 --> 0:24:40.080
<v Speaker 1>Well it's a real power imbalance that, Like, you've got

0:24:40.119 --> 0:24:43.880
<v Speaker 1>the significant age difference, but you're looking at the sixteen

0:24:43.920 --> 0:24:47.439
<v Speaker 1>year old's life experience and then a man in his

0:24:47.560 --> 0:24:48.879
<v Speaker 1>late late thirties.

0:24:48.960 --> 0:24:51.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's right, that's right, A powerful man in the

0:24:51.240 --> 0:24:57.080
<v Speaker 2>sense that the psychological tools that he had to manipulate

0:24:57.160 --> 0:25:02.480
<v Speaker 2>and to trick people. Oh, they were at their apex then,

0:25:02.880 --> 0:25:04.680
<v Speaker 2>and she was an easy.

0:25:04.359 --> 0:25:07.119
<v Speaker 1>Catch, sixteen year old girl. So they ended up in

0:25:07.200 --> 0:25:08.240
<v Speaker 1>the relationship.

0:25:08.359 --> 0:25:11.280
<v Speaker 2>They ended up in a relationship and it was a

0:25:11.320 --> 0:25:15.920
<v Speaker 2>sexual relationship, and they were living together. And he burned

0:25:15.920 --> 0:25:17.879
<v Speaker 2>a lot of bridges because he not only was he

0:25:20.160 --> 0:25:23.280
<v Speaker 2>a misogynist, whatever, when he the relationships he had with

0:25:23.440 --> 0:25:25.800
<v Speaker 2>people that he did business with or friends or mates

0:25:25.840 --> 0:25:29.480
<v Speaker 2>or whatever. He burned a lot of bridges. And eventually

0:25:29.520 --> 0:25:31.840
<v Speaker 2>he thought he'd get out of the Sydney and he

0:25:31.880 --> 0:25:35.560
<v Speaker 2>moved up the Terrygel moved up to Terygol in nineteen

0:25:35.600 --> 0:25:36.080
<v Speaker 2>eighty eight.

0:25:36.880 --> 0:25:39.680
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so for people that you know, not Sydney base,

0:25:39.920 --> 0:25:43.560
<v Speaker 1>you've got the western suburbs of Sydney basically then moving

0:25:43.640 --> 0:25:46.399
<v Speaker 1>up to the central case Terrile, so you're looking at

0:25:46.400 --> 0:25:47.879
<v Speaker 1>the sort of an hour and a half two hours

0:25:47.920 --> 0:25:48.879
<v Speaker 1>north of Sydney.

0:25:48.920 --> 0:25:51.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and Tarrgoll in eighty eight would would have been

0:25:51.400 --> 0:25:53.960
<v Speaker 2>quite It was a holiday area for Sydney people and whatever,

0:25:54.280 --> 0:25:56.720
<v Speaker 2>but it still had the opportunity for people that didn't

0:25:56.720 --> 0:25:58.080
<v Speaker 2>have a lot of money to go there. And find

0:25:58.080 --> 0:25:59.800
<v Speaker 2>a spot, and he found a spot on Scenic Drive

0:26:00.800 --> 0:26:05.639
<v Speaker 2>where it was basically just a small property off the

0:26:05.680 --> 0:26:10.280
<v Speaker 2>Scenic Drive and he had the capacity to have two caravans,

0:26:10.320 --> 0:26:13.240
<v Speaker 2>so he brought two cheap caravans and he used that.

0:26:13.520 --> 0:26:17.520
<v Speaker 2>He found again young women and young people who were

0:26:18.000 --> 0:26:21.159
<v Speaker 2>homeless or at their wits end, and he put them

0:26:21.200 --> 0:26:25.119
<v Speaker 2>into these caravans and charged them rent and whatever. Potentially

0:26:25.160 --> 0:26:27.359
<v Speaker 2>he was prostituting some of the women out of there.

0:26:28.320 --> 0:26:31.520
<v Speaker 2>There's evidence that he was a driver for an escort

0:26:31.520 --> 0:26:34.600
<v Speaker 2>agency in Gosford, so he's doing all sorts of devious

0:26:34.600 --> 0:26:37.800
<v Speaker 2>things to make money around the Central Coast and eventually

0:26:37.920 --> 0:26:40.399
<v Speaker 2>carry Anne decided to come up to live with. He

0:26:40.920 --> 0:26:43.439
<v Speaker 2>invited her up to live so hic co worster up there,

0:26:43.520 --> 0:26:48.040
<v Speaker 2>yeah okay, yeah, completely to the complete resistance from her

0:26:48.080 --> 0:26:49.439
<v Speaker 2>mother and her.

0:26:49.359 --> 0:26:51.560
<v Speaker 1>Family, so her family could see them.

0:26:51.440 --> 0:26:53.920
<v Speaker 2>From the outset. From the outset. Her mother and her

0:26:53.960 --> 0:26:56.800
<v Speaker 2>family a father and sister Lisa, and a brother, young

0:26:56.840 --> 0:26:59.920
<v Speaker 2>brother Tom. They were all very resistant to the move,

0:27:00.640 --> 0:27:02.760
<v Speaker 2>but it happened.

0:27:03.200 --> 0:27:04.960
<v Speaker 1>How old was she when she moved up there.

0:27:05.880 --> 0:27:07.840
<v Speaker 2>She's I met in eighty eight, so she would have

0:27:07.880 --> 0:27:09.760
<v Speaker 2>been eighteen.

0:27:09.600 --> 0:27:12.920
<v Speaker 1>Okay, yep, all right, so he's probably forty.

0:27:13.040 --> 0:27:15.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, probably, well he's about twenty two years old, yeah.

0:27:15.680 --> 0:27:18.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, okay, and moved up. There was how long were

0:27:18.840 --> 0:27:22.160
<v Speaker 1>they together? Was there any stable time in the relationship?

0:27:23.080 --> 0:27:26.040
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so they moved up in eighty eight disaster from

0:27:26.080 --> 0:27:30.360
<v Speaker 2>day one disaster from day one, she tried. She realized

0:27:31.000 --> 0:27:35.080
<v Speaker 2>after time there was a catalyst. Her sister Lisa wanted

0:27:35.359 --> 0:27:38.479
<v Speaker 2>to younger sister Lisa wanted to leave the western Sydney,

0:27:38.560 --> 0:27:40.520
<v Speaker 2>so she decided to come up to the central coast,

0:27:40.640 --> 0:27:45.359
<v Speaker 2>Carrie Anne's younger, younger sister Lisa, and she had nowhere

0:27:45.400 --> 0:27:47.800
<v Speaker 2>to live, and then Baker invited her to come and

0:27:47.840 --> 0:27:51.440
<v Speaker 2>live in the caravan in the house with the caravans

0:27:51.440 --> 0:27:55.560
<v Speaker 2>and whatever. Within days of her being there, Baker, when

0:27:55.640 --> 0:27:57.840
<v Speaker 2>Carrie is not at the house, Bakers has tried to

0:27:57.920 --> 0:28:00.640
<v Speaker 2>coax her into the bedroom for sex. And she's resisted this,

0:28:00.960 --> 0:28:03.160
<v Speaker 2>and she kept that from herself. She she didn't tell

0:28:03.200 --> 0:28:04.560
<v Speaker 2>carry In about that till later.

0:28:04.840 --> 0:28:07.640
<v Speaker 1>And says so much about him, doesn't it. Just when

0:28:08.080 --> 0:28:10.600
<v Speaker 1>in the book when it said the younger sister, I

0:28:10.680 --> 0:28:12.800
<v Speaker 1>was thinking, well, we know what's going to happen there.

0:28:12.680 --> 0:28:17.800
<v Speaker 2>And exactly exactly what happened, so and that Kerrian didn't

0:28:17.800 --> 0:28:19.320
<v Speaker 2>know about that at the time. Lisa and he told

0:28:19.359 --> 0:28:22.159
<v Speaker 2>about that some time later. But Krrian realized when she's there,

0:28:22.200 --> 0:28:23.760
<v Speaker 2>she saw a different well, she saw a world that

0:28:23.880 --> 0:28:27.560
<v Speaker 2>wasn't western suburbs. He saw opportunity, the beautiful beaches. She

0:28:28.359 --> 0:28:31.720
<v Speaker 2>kind of had slight interactions with other people that weren't

0:28:31.720 --> 0:28:33.920
<v Speaker 2>in Baker's So.

0:28:33.600 --> 0:28:36.400
<v Speaker 1>I suppose at that age bosoming like seeing the world

0:28:36.480 --> 0:28:37.840
<v Speaker 1>what the world's got the offer.

0:28:37.600 --> 0:28:40.960
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, absolutely, and she decided that she's going to figure

0:28:40.960 --> 0:28:43.800
<v Speaker 2>out a way to leave him, and that took her

0:28:44.320 --> 0:28:46.360
<v Speaker 2>two or three years to do that.

0:28:46.360 --> 0:28:50.160
<v Speaker 1>That's when when he's controlling aspect really came into the

0:28:50.160 --> 0:28:53.680
<v Speaker 1>fall absolutely and he fought the tooth and nail, and yeah,

0:28:55.480 --> 0:28:59.160
<v Speaker 1>tell us through that. So we've got the situation that

0:28:59.200 --> 0:29:02.959
<v Speaker 1>we've got carrying. Moved up, left family against the family's wishes,

0:29:03.440 --> 0:29:06.560
<v Speaker 1>moved up to the Central Coast, living with Baker. Younger

0:29:06.600 --> 0:29:11.040
<v Speaker 1>sisters come up. She's living there and she's thinking I

0:29:11.080 --> 0:29:13.880
<v Speaker 1>want a different life and starting to move away. Talk

0:29:13.920 --> 0:29:16.280
<v Speaker 1>about the efforts that she made to move away and

0:29:16.320 --> 0:29:18.600
<v Speaker 1>the efforts that he made to keep control over.

0:29:18.760 --> 0:29:21.680
<v Speaker 2>So eventually she wanted to get a job. She wanted

0:29:21.680 --> 0:29:24.760
<v Speaker 2>some independence. Turning a twenty year old woman twenty plasses,

0:29:24.800 --> 0:29:27.640
<v Speaker 2>she wanted some independence, and she badgered him. She wanted

0:29:27.640 --> 0:29:31.120
<v Speaker 2>a job. Eventually he relented, and I'm not quite unsure

0:29:31.160 --> 0:29:34.200
<v Speaker 2>why he did that, but he did. He relented and

0:29:34.280 --> 0:29:36.480
<v Speaker 2>let her get a job at the Evocan nursing Home.

0:29:37.080 --> 0:29:38.800
<v Speaker 2>And it was at the Evocan nursing Home where she

0:29:38.840 --> 0:29:43.200
<v Speaker 2>met two beautiful women who mentioned in the book Sylvia

0:29:43.200 --> 0:29:47.239
<v Speaker 2>and Maureen, and that these women basically mentored her, and

0:29:47.280 --> 0:29:49.600
<v Speaker 2>she saw a different life. She had a job, she

0:29:49.680 --> 0:29:52.280
<v Speaker 2>had an income, she had women that were normal, She

0:29:52.320 --> 0:29:54.800
<v Speaker 2>had people that were normal, saw people living lives that

0:29:54.840 --> 0:29:56.960
<v Speaker 2>were normal. At night, she was going back to that

0:29:57.440 --> 0:30:02.120
<v Speaker 2>claustrophobic relationship she had with Baker. But she grew, she

0:30:02.240 --> 0:30:06.000
<v Speaker 2>developed some sort of energy or some sort of courage

0:30:06.200 --> 0:30:08.000
<v Speaker 2>in that sense to say, well, I want more, I

0:30:08.040 --> 0:30:10.480
<v Speaker 2>want more, want more. Baker did everything he could to

0:30:10.520 --> 0:30:13.240
<v Speaker 2>spoil the job and whatever. So from out of that

0:30:14.520 --> 0:30:17.760
<v Speaker 2>experience in the nursing home, she decided to tell Baker,

0:30:17.760 --> 0:30:20.800
<v Speaker 2>I want to leave, I want my own flat. He relented,

0:30:20.840 --> 0:30:25.080
<v Speaker 2>He resisted, and resisted and resisted. I'm unclear of what

0:30:25.160 --> 0:30:27.960
<v Speaker 2>sort of domestic violence he inflicted on her that period.

0:30:28.080 --> 0:30:31.480
<v Speaker 2>There was a circumstance where he did basher during that period,

0:30:31.720 --> 0:30:36.640
<v Speaker 2>and eventually he relented and found for her a flat

0:30:36.720 --> 0:30:39.680
<v Speaker 2>at Wombrel, which is just a neighboring suburb of Terregol

0:30:39.720 --> 0:30:42.520
<v Speaker 2>in the central case. But in finding her the flat,

0:30:42.600 --> 0:30:45.760
<v Speaker 2>he organized the flat, He set up the bonds. He

0:30:46.800 --> 0:30:50.440
<v Speaker 2>actually made a spare key for himself. He made a

0:30:50.440 --> 0:30:53.440
<v Speaker 2>spare key for a car, and she went and let

0:30:53.520 --> 0:30:55.720
<v Speaker 2>her go to the flat. She thought she was getting

0:30:55.720 --> 0:30:58.719
<v Speaker 2>away from him. She thought that she was having a

0:30:58.760 --> 0:31:01.520
<v Speaker 2>new life, but he was watching her, stalking her. Had

0:31:01.560 --> 0:31:04.840
<v Speaker 2>access to the flat all over this time and got

0:31:04.880 --> 0:31:07.360
<v Speaker 2>to the point she started working in nursing home in

0:31:07.440 --> 0:31:10.320
<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety one, So that was in nineteen ninety two

0:31:10.360 --> 0:31:12.160
<v Speaker 2>that he set her up in the flat at one Brill.

0:31:13.000 --> 0:31:16.760
<v Speaker 2>But he he just wouldn't give her any space. He

0:31:17.160 --> 0:31:21.720
<v Speaker 2>demanded that she drove from one Brell to the nursing home,

0:31:21.800 --> 0:31:23.280
<v Speaker 2>which she had to go past his place, that he

0:31:23.280 --> 0:31:25.880
<v Speaker 2>stopped every day and saw and all that sort of stuff.

0:31:26.240 --> 0:31:27.840
<v Speaker 1>It was fake independence, wasn't it that?

0:31:27.960 --> 0:31:31.840
<v Speaker 2>It was contrived independence that he contrived. He contrived, so

0:31:32.240 --> 0:31:35.960
<v Speaker 2>she realized over time that nothing had changed. She was

0:31:36.000 --> 0:31:38.120
<v Speaker 2>sleeping in a house by herself. I'm sure he was

0:31:38.200 --> 0:31:40.400
<v Speaker 2>turning up and pressuring her for sex while she was

0:31:40.440 --> 0:31:43.320
<v Speaker 2>at wm Brill as well, but yeah, over time she

0:31:43.760 --> 0:31:47.240
<v Speaker 2>just realized that this is this is not working. Until

0:31:47.280 --> 0:31:49.560
<v Speaker 2>that till that fateful night he started.

0:31:49.600 --> 0:31:51.760
<v Speaker 1>He started turning up with the work at the nursing home.

0:31:51.800 --> 0:31:53.280
<v Speaker 2>He started to turn up with the work all the time,

0:31:53.320 --> 0:31:56.560
<v Speaker 2>particularly when she was moving to the point where she

0:31:56.560 --> 0:31:57.800
<v Speaker 2>didn't want to have a bar of him.

0:31:58.240 --> 0:32:01.160
<v Speaker 1>The narrative that he would deliver to is to everyone

0:32:01.240 --> 0:32:04.120
<v Speaker 1>he's speaking to, whether it be her family, her work, colleagues,

0:32:04.200 --> 0:32:06.520
<v Speaker 1>or whatever, I just want to be friends, Yeah, just

0:32:07.160 --> 0:32:12.080
<v Speaker 1>like I get frustrated and angry when you see you

0:32:12.120 --> 0:32:15.600
<v Speaker 1>see people like that, and you know, and maybe it's

0:32:15.600 --> 0:32:17.920
<v Speaker 1>because of a life experience or just the work that

0:32:17.960 --> 0:32:20.760
<v Speaker 1>we've done. You know this is not going to end well.

0:32:20.640 --> 0:32:23.800
<v Speaker 2>No, it's that control. I just want to be friends.

0:32:23.800 --> 0:32:25.400
<v Speaker 2>But he still wanted to have sex with her. You know,

0:32:25.600 --> 0:32:28.800
<v Speaker 2>he had those conversations with friends that I should be

0:32:28.800 --> 0:32:31.320
<v Speaker 2>safe for having sex with me because I'm cleaner, rather

0:32:31.400 --> 0:32:33.840
<v Speaker 2>than having sex with someone else. So the sex thing

0:32:33.920 --> 0:32:36.760
<v Speaker 2>was quite quite a prominent thing, and he's thinking about that,

0:32:36.880 --> 0:32:40.120
<v Speaker 2>about the relationship. But yeah, but the overriding of the

0:32:40.240 --> 0:32:43.200
<v Speaker 2>umbrella of it or was his control. You just want

0:32:43.240 --> 0:32:44.040
<v Speaker 2>to complete control.

0:32:44.360 --> 0:32:47.600
<v Speaker 1>And the had some of the ladies that you mentioned

0:32:47.600 --> 0:32:50.280
<v Speaker 1>in the nursing home that would actually stand up to him, and.

0:32:50.480 --> 0:32:52.560
<v Speaker 2>They stood up to him. He'd come to the nursing

0:32:52.560 --> 0:32:55.320
<v Speaker 2>home and demand to see Kerry in whatever they protect her,

0:32:56.720 --> 0:32:58.760
<v Speaker 2>which is quite brave in hindsight when you think about

0:32:58.800 --> 0:33:02.120
<v Speaker 2>the capacity that he demonstrated, you know some months later

0:33:02.520 --> 0:33:05.120
<v Speaker 2>when he went and did what he did, but they

0:33:05.200 --> 0:33:08.480
<v Speaker 2>stood up to him, and oddly enough, on reflection, he

0:33:10.400 --> 0:33:15.200
<v Speaker 2>demonstrated a type of cowardice. And for me, the cowardice was, yes,

0:33:15.240 --> 0:33:17.080
<v Speaker 2>he turned up, he bullied these women and he stood

0:33:17.080 --> 0:33:19.160
<v Speaker 2>at the door, but he never had the courage to

0:33:19.560 --> 0:33:22.160
<v Speaker 2>do any more. And when they said no and gave

0:33:22.200 --> 0:33:25.720
<v Speaker 2>him that cold face no, he always turned.

0:33:25.440 --> 0:33:26.400
<v Speaker 1>And went awake away.

0:33:26.480 --> 0:33:28.160
<v Speaker 2>But he come back. He would always come back.

0:33:28.240 --> 0:33:33.080
<v Speaker 1>And when did his son land on the scene, so

0:33:33.080 --> 0:33:35.480
<v Speaker 1>his son to his So just because it gets a

0:33:35.480 --> 0:33:38.520
<v Speaker 1>little complicated, So we've got Malcolm Baker, we got carry

0:33:38.560 --> 0:33:42.400
<v Speaker 1>Anne living separated, but the son, his son David from

0:33:42.400 --> 0:33:44.200
<v Speaker 1>a previous relationship.

0:33:43.840 --> 0:33:45.960
<v Speaker 2>From his second wife, I believe, wanted.

0:33:45.760 --> 0:33:46.920
<v Speaker 1>To reconnect with the father.

0:33:47.200 --> 0:33:49.480
<v Speaker 2>Well, he was living on the coast earlier, some years

0:33:49.520 --> 0:33:55.480
<v Speaker 2>earlier to that, so he reconnected shortly after the Baker

0:33:55.520 --> 0:33:57.840
<v Speaker 2>moved to the coast and that's where he met carry

0:33:57.880 --> 0:34:02.280
<v Speaker 2>Ann and then so they had quite a ordinary father's

0:34:02.280 --> 0:34:06.360
<v Speaker 2>son relationship. David wanted to be in his father's life,

0:34:06.400 --> 0:34:08.160
<v Speaker 2>but he found it really hard because his father was

0:34:08.200 --> 0:34:12.600
<v Speaker 2>so obsessive and so demanding. But he persisted with his

0:34:12.680 --> 0:34:15.160
<v Speaker 2>dad to have got to the point where he eventually

0:34:15.160 --> 0:34:19.000
<v Speaker 2>had enough of his father's bullying and badgering that he

0:34:19.080 --> 0:34:24.360
<v Speaker 2>left the Central Coast and his father started to accuse

0:34:24.560 --> 0:34:27.799
<v Speaker 2>him David of having an affair with Kerry An. Oddly enough,

0:34:27.800 --> 0:34:31.440
<v Speaker 2>they were becoming intimate during that time. Cary Ane was

0:34:31.480 --> 0:34:33.520
<v Speaker 2>reaching out to David because he was the closest thing

0:34:33.560 --> 0:34:36.480
<v Speaker 2>to Baker at that time, reaching out to him for

0:34:36.680 --> 0:34:39.000
<v Speaker 2>some sort of guidance and support, and they did end

0:34:39.080 --> 0:34:41.840
<v Speaker 2>up in some sort of relationship during that time, and

0:34:41.880 --> 0:34:43.360
<v Speaker 2>Baker was suspicious.

0:34:42.880 --> 0:34:47.480
<v Speaker 1>Of that that would have seen his anger and that.

0:34:48.160 --> 0:34:50.480
<v Speaker 2>Was the Green Eye Dragon. The jealousy thing happened, and

0:34:50.520 --> 0:34:53.040
<v Speaker 2>it was only near the murders, which we're talking about

0:34:53.080 --> 0:34:57.960
<v Speaker 2>later that David disclosed to his dad after many many

0:34:58.000 --> 0:35:01.680
<v Speaker 2>months or eighteen months of deny, that he'd actually had

0:35:01.680 --> 0:35:03.400
<v Speaker 2>a relationship with Karen because he thought it would be

0:35:03.400 --> 0:35:04.880
<v Speaker 2>best to tell his dad the truth, and his dad

0:35:04.920 --> 0:35:06.840
<v Speaker 2>would go, Okay, now you've told me the truth. Everything's

0:35:06.840 --> 0:35:08.120
<v Speaker 2>all right. But it didn't work.

0:35:08.960 --> 0:35:12.360
<v Speaker 1>That was the wrong call with other people that he

0:35:13.040 --> 0:35:17.480
<v Speaker 1>had fallen out with Ross Smith was that the business transaction.

0:35:17.600 --> 0:35:19.839
<v Speaker 1>So this is we're just what I'm trying to do

0:35:19.880 --> 0:35:21.759
<v Speaker 1>here is just getting the sense of it. And I

0:35:21.800 --> 0:35:23.239
<v Speaker 1>look at a lot of this stuff as sort of

0:35:23.239 --> 0:35:25.600
<v Speaker 1>the red flags. You're thinking, this Blake is a ticking

0:35:25.640 --> 0:35:29.239
<v Speaker 1>time bomb. Absolutely, and so what was he's falling out there?

0:35:29.239 --> 0:35:32.600
<v Speaker 1>But that even led into him controlling Kerry Anne, wasn't

0:35:32.600 --> 0:35:36.760
<v Speaker 1>it because he would use her name for his business ventures.

0:35:36.800 --> 0:35:39.560
<v Speaker 2>And so that's when I first met Malcolm Baker and

0:35:39.600 --> 0:35:42.839
<v Speaker 2>Kerriyanne at one describe that to me, Well, they came

0:35:42.880 --> 0:35:48.759
<v Speaker 2>to the police station. Baker had this idea that he

0:35:48.800 --> 0:35:51.719
<v Speaker 2>would get a house up on the coal fields. That

0:35:51.760 --> 0:35:54.600
<v Speaker 2>says noock at Millfielder says not, and he'll take Carryann

0:35:54.640 --> 0:35:57.279
<v Speaker 2>away from everything that was happening because he's took her

0:35:57.280 --> 0:36:00.680
<v Speaker 2>away from Sydney and the family pressures whatever was there

0:36:00.719 --> 0:36:03.120
<v Speaker 2>and her father Tom was visiting, and a brother was

0:36:03.160 --> 0:36:06.359
<v Speaker 2>there and Anne and a mother was visiting. She He

0:36:06.400 --> 0:36:10.360
<v Speaker 2>saw that that that and David Baker was becoming involved.

0:36:10.560 --> 0:36:13.680
<v Speaker 2>He saw that that people was losing controls control, basically

0:36:13.680 --> 0:36:16.160
<v Speaker 2>losing controler. So he had this idea of building a house,

0:36:16.640 --> 0:36:20.760
<v Speaker 2>of moving to a house up in Millfield. And Ross

0:36:20.800 --> 0:36:25.600
<v Speaker 2>Warren Smith was a not a very good house mover

0:36:26.080 --> 0:36:29.719
<v Speaker 2>on the Central Coast. He was basically a fraudster and

0:36:29.760 --> 0:36:32.160
<v Speaker 2>a crook, but he had he had this business of

0:36:32.200 --> 0:36:35.080
<v Speaker 2>moving houses. And Ross had a capacity to move a

0:36:35.120 --> 0:36:35.800
<v Speaker 2>house somewhere.

0:36:35.880 --> 0:36:39.120
<v Speaker 1>And he's like, we're talking literally picking pick up house up,

0:36:39.239 --> 0:36:40.680
<v Speaker 1>crying on the back of the truck.

0:36:40.719 --> 0:36:44.280
<v Speaker 2>And he had the capacity. Then he would sell his skills.

0:36:44.560 --> 0:36:46.680
<v Speaker 2>I can move the house, but I can also renovate

0:36:46.719 --> 0:36:49.080
<v Speaker 2>it to the point of getting to be livable. And

0:36:49.239 --> 0:36:52.240
<v Speaker 2>so Baker had had acquired some land up there somehow

0:36:52.560 --> 0:36:54.960
<v Speaker 2>and the house was on the property. The house was

0:36:55.000 --> 0:36:57.319
<v Speaker 2>moved to the property and the girl with Smith was

0:36:57.680 --> 0:37:00.800
<v Speaker 2>to move the house to the renovations or whatever, and

0:37:01.360 --> 0:37:04.799
<v Speaker 2>Baker would Carry Ann was the person who was on

0:37:04.840 --> 0:37:06.799
<v Speaker 2>the contract to do it, not Baker. So I first

0:37:06.800 --> 0:37:09.400
<v Speaker 2>met him when they came to the police station in

0:37:09.880 --> 0:37:14.719
<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety and carry Anne wanted to complain about Ross

0:37:14.719 --> 0:37:17.439
<v Speaker 2>Smith taking all this money and not doing the house

0:37:17.440 --> 0:37:20.839
<v Speaker 2>smooth because he didn't actually do it. He actually did.

0:37:21.120 --> 0:37:23.960
<v Speaker 2>Ross Smith actually sold the same house to two other

0:37:24.000 --> 0:37:27.000
<v Speaker 2>couples to get the money. He's a good crook, well

0:37:27.000 --> 0:37:28.600
<v Speaker 2>not a good crook, he was a crook anyway. So

0:37:28.680 --> 0:37:31.000
<v Speaker 2>Carry Anne was at the counter on this particular that's

0:37:31.040 --> 0:37:34.400
<v Speaker 2>when I first met her, and I saw Baker outside

0:37:34.440 --> 0:37:40.080
<v Speaker 2>the door, hiding behind the screen. And as I spoke

0:37:40.120 --> 0:37:41.920
<v Speaker 2>to carry And she told me this story about I

0:37:41.960 --> 0:37:44.279
<v Speaker 2>want to complain about this man, Ross Smith, who I

0:37:44.280 --> 0:37:46.920
<v Speaker 2>gave all this money to perform these jobs that he

0:37:46.960 --> 0:37:50.000
<v Speaker 2>didn't do so basically obtained benefit by deception or something

0:37:50.120 --> 0:37:52.640
<v Speaker 2>of fraud. And as I was speaking to carry And

0:37:52.719 --> 0:37:54.520
<v Speaker 2>I said, well, you'll need to give me a police statement.

0:37:54.520 --> 0:37:58.560
<v Speaker 2>You're happy to come upstairs, and carry Anne turned on

0:37:58.600 --> 0:38:00.640
<v Speaker 2>a heel and I I thought she was going to

0:38:00.719 --> 0:38:03.040
<v Speaker 2>leave the police station. Baker walked into the police station

0:38:03.080 --> 0:38:05.319
<v Speaker 2>and stood in front of us and that's when I

0:38:05.360 --> 0:38:08.480
<v Speaker 2>spoke to Baker and he basically stopped her from walking out.

0:38:08.520 --> 0:38:10.200
<v Speaker 1>What was your first impressions of him?

0:38:10.200 --> 0:38:14.520
<v Speaker 2>But he was just like cold, like psychopathically cold, like

0:38:14.600 --> 0:38:18.319
<v Speaker 2>he had no He had the aviator glasses on and

0:38:18.640 --> 0:38:21.080
<v Speaker 2>his uniform of a flannel at shirt and his blue

0:38:21.160 --> 0:38:24.799
<v Speaker 2>jeans and his blue blue singlet underneath, but he just

0:38:24.840 --> 0:38:27.640
<v Speaker 2>had no effect. Coming from a psych nursing background, you

0:38:27.640 --> 0:38:30.799
<v Speaker 2>can tell some people have no effect, and he had

0:38:30.840 --> 0:38:34.160
<v Speaker 2>no effect. He was just cold. And she just said, okay,

0:38:34.239 --> 0:38:35.640
<v Speaker 2>let's go up to the office. So we went up

0:38:35.680 --> 0:38:37.720
<v Speaker 2>to my office at while Saturday, down in the office

0:38:37.719 --> 0:38:39.640
<v Speaker 2>and he stood in the doorway and listen. He wouldn't

0:38:39.680 --> 0:38:41.960
<v Speaker 2>take a seat in the office, he wouldn't participate, to

0:38:42.000 --> 0:38:43.319
<v Speaker 2>the point where I had to ask him, you know,

0:38:43.360 --> 0:38:45.120
<v Speaker 2>what are you doing? Are you all right? Mate? And

0:38:45.480 --> 0:38:49.480
<v Speaker 2>eventually we got through the statement an a list in

0:38:49.520 --> 0:38:52.839
<v Speaker 2>the office. Scottie Haynes, he and I did the investigation.

0:38:53.280 --> 0:38:56.760
<v Speaker 2>Smith was charged eighty months down the track and Smith

0:38:57.400 --> 0:39:00.000
<v Speaker 2>was found guilty on some of the offenses, and unfortunately

0:39:00.160 --> 0:39:03.440
<v Speaker 2>the magistrate didn't order any compensation, so Baker Baker lost

0:39:03.480 --> 0:39:05.440
<v Speaker 2>the money. But it was Baker that put carry up

0:39:05.600 --> 0:39:07.799
<v Speaker 2>just on the protest that she's the one that was

0:39:07.840 --> 0:39:10.360
<v Speaker 2>doing the deal. It's her money that she paid.

0:39:10.560 --> 0:39:13.200
<v Speaker 1>Again, it's that manipulation. Then control was well, he.

0:39:13.200 --> 0:39:14.719
<v Speaker 2>Wanted to cover up the fact that he had money

0:39:14.719 --> 0:39:18.080
<v Speaker 2>because he was routing centerin and he wanted to cover

0:39:18.160 --> 0:39:21.879
<v Speaker 2>up the fact that he had the capacity to do

0:39:21.920 --> 0:39:25.839
<v Speaker 2>this and just wanted wanted her to be the front.

0:39:25.840 --> 0:39:28.560
<v Speaker 1>And the fact he'd been ripped off by Ross Smith.

0:39:28.600 --> 0:39:30.520
<v Speaker 1>He became obsessed with him.

0:39:30.120 --> 0:39:35.680
<v Speaker 2>Completely obsessed with it, and that ber lit a flame

0:39:35.719 --> 0:39:40.000
<v Speaker 2>for revenge that obviously was extinguished on that night in

0:39:40.239 --> 0:39:41.040
<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety two.

0:39:41.239 --> 0:39:45.120
<v Speaker 1>What was the circumstances that led to his guns being

0:39:45.160 --> 0:39:48.320
<v Speaker 1>taken off him? Was that carry Anne reporting the domestic violence?

0:39:48.880 --> 0:39:50.440
<v Speaker 1>What stage did that come in and what was the

0:39:50.520 --> 0:39:51.000
<v Speaker 1>nature of that.

0:39:51.160 --> 0:39:56.000
<v Speaker 2>Good So, a week or say before the seventh of

0:39:56.120 --> 0:39:59.960
<v Speaker 2>October nineteen ninety two, Baker went into the flat at Carrins,

0:40:00.000 --> 0:40:01.520
<v Speaker 2>broke into the flat in the middle of the night

0:40:02.000 --> 0:40:05.200
<v Speaker 2>and wake her up and had a conversation with her.

0:40:05.440 --> 0:40:07.680
<v Speaker 2>She told him to leave, pushed him, then he punched

0:40:07.680 --> 0:40:11.600
<v Speaker 2>her in the face. So he had he kept and

0:40:12.239 --> 0:40:14.680
<v Speaker 2>the flat. Okay, he had access to the place all

0:40:14.680 --> 0:40:17.000
<v Speaker 2>the time, so he just let himself in, broke in

0:40:17.080 --> 0:40:20.160
<v Speaker 2>with the key and had a conversation. She told him

0:40:20.160 --> 0:40:21.920
<v Speaker 2>to get out, leave her alone, hit her with her

0:40:21.960 --> 0:40:23.759
<v Speaker 2>right punched her in the face, give her a bit

0:40:23.800 --> 0:40:26.239
<v Speaker 2>black eye. She had a week off work, went back

0:40:26.239 --> 0:40:28.839
<v Speaker 2>to work. Sylvia and Moore in at the house at

0:40:29.000 --> 0:40:32.120
<v Speaker 2>work said what happened, and she eventually told them and

0:40:32.160 --> 0:40:36.280
<v Speaker 2>they encouraged her to go to Terryko Police to apply

0:40:36.360 --> 0:40:36.840
<v Speaker 2>for an avare.

0:40:36.920 --> 0:40:39.120
<v Speaker 1>And this is, if my reading of it too, this

0:40:39.200 --> 0:40:42.440
<v Speaker 1>is how the downtrodden victims of domestic violence and that

0:40:42.600 --> 0:40:46.080
<v Speaker 1>become She was embarrassed about having the having the black eye.

0:40:46.239 --> 0:40:48.359
<v Speaker 2>She was she wanted to hide it for a week

0:40:48.360 --> 0:40:48.879
<v Speaker 2>from the friends.

0:40:49.160 --> 0:40:52.040
<v Speaker 1>And it's sad, isn't it. Yeah, you get to that

0:40:52.239 --> 0:40:56.000
<v Speaker 1>point that they're victims, they've been assaulted and they're embarrassed.

0:40:56.080 --> 0:40:57.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, But if you think about it, it's the pinnacle

0:40:57.600 --> 0:41:00.080
<v Speaker 2>of control of the offender, like the fact that he

0:41:00.640 --> 0:41:03.920
<v Speaker 2>knows he can go and bash carry out and the

0:41:03.960 --> 0:41:06.760
<v Speaker 2>consequences he thought at the time are negligent.

0:41:07.560 --> 0:41:08.239
<v Speaker 1>What she going to do?

0:41:08.320 --> 0:41:09.800
<v Speaker 2>What she going to do? It was only through the

0:41:09.880 --> 0:41:12.000
<v Speaker 2>encouragement of her friends at the Evoca nursing home.

0:41:12.040 --> 0:41:12.960
<v Speaker 1>They gave her the strength.

0:41:13.040 --> 0:41:15.040
<v Speaker 2>They gave her the strength and the advice and she

0:41:15.040 --> 0:41:18.359
<v Speaker 2>she went with a sister to to to Gospeld local

0:41:18.400 --> 0:41:20.400
<v Speaker 2>Quarter a couple of days later, got the a v

0:41:20.560 --> 0:41:23.279
<v Speaker 2>O two days later with the matter was to be heard.

0:41:23.320 --> 0:41:25.959
<v Speaker 2>So the police acted very quickly. And in those days

0:41:25.960 --> 0:41:28.879
<v Speaker 2>the legislation allowed the police to go into the house

0:41:29.080 --> 0:41:31.000
<v Speaker 2>not under a search rank, but to be invited into

0:41:31.000 --> 0:41:35.360
<v Speaker 2>the house and to search for weapons. Baker had possibly

0:41:35.400 --> 0:41:38.640
<v Speaker 2>ten weapons. They found five or seven of the weapons,

0:41:40.160 --> 0:41:42.239
<v Speaker 2>but he had two hidden had one hidden in the

0:41:42.560 --> 0:41:43.880
<v Speaker 2>in his shed down.

0:41:43.719 --> 0:41:46.560
<v Speaker 1>So those were firearms that he had. So yeah, he's.

0:41:46.400 --> 0:41:49.360
<v Speaker 2>A license firearm holder. He had In those days, you

0:41:49.400 --> 0:41:51.399
<v Speaker 2>didn't have to register how many firearms you were, which

0:41:51.440 --> 0:41:53.360
<v Speaker 2>was a flaw in the legislation. I mean, this is

0:41:53.360 --> 0:41:56.680
<v Speaker 2>all post Port Arthur and the like. The New South

0:41:56.680 --> 0:41:59.560
<v Speaker 2>Wales government was kind of wrangling with the notion about

0:41:59.600 --> 0:42:02.319
<v Speaker 2>how we can deal with the firearms issue. But he

0:42:02.360 --> 0:42:05.520
<v Speaker 2>didn't have to have them identified in a registration.

0:42:05.160 --> 0:42:08.799
<v Speaker 1>Of okay, so registered the firearm license holder have as

0:42:08.800 --> 0:42:09.239
<v Speaker 1>many fi.

0:42:09.320 --> 0:42:11.360
<v Speaker 2>As many as his firearms as his one, you know,

0:42:11.400 --> 0:42:13.799
<v Speaker 2>and they just did regular checks and the like, and

0:42:13.840 --> 0:42:16.600
<v Speaker 2>he obviously didn't hand over all his firearms. But that

0:42:16.640 --> 0:42:19.160
<v Speaker 2>moment that the police came, Teriger police came and took

0:42:19.440 --> 0:42:23.600
<v Speaker 2>took the weapons was for me, was the straw that

0:42:23.640 --> 0:42:26.320
<v Speaker 2>breake the camel's back in his sense, because he loved

0:42:26.320 --> 0:42:28.960
<v Speaker 2>the guns, and he loved the power and the effect

0:42:29.000 --> 0:42:30.600
<v Speaker 2>that it had and people knowing he had the guns

0:42:30.600 --> 0:42:31.640
<v Speaker 2>more than anything.

0:42:31.600 --> 0:42:34.080
<v Speaker 1>And the psychology of it. Do you think, how dare

0:42:34.200 --> 0:42:35.600
<v Speaker 1>she calls this drama?

0:42:35.719 --> 0:42:38.200
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely? Absolutely what did I do? All I did was

0:42:38.200 --> 0:42:41.520
<v Speaker 2>punch in a face. Later in his interview, I punched

0:42:41.520 --> 0:42:44.560
<v Speaker 2>her a number of times, so you know she deserved it.

0:42:44.680 --> 0:42:48.440
<v Speaker 1>So it's like she's betrayed him by going to the police. Absolutely,

0:42:50.520 --> 0:42:52.840
<v Speaker 1>when the firearms were seized, that was how long before

0:42:52.880 --> 0:42:54.680
<v Speaker 1>the actual neither of them murder?

0:42:55.520 --> 0:42:56.000
<v Speaker 2>Two weeks?

0:42:56.200 --> 0:42:59.200
<v Speaker 1>Right, Okay, So it was all all brilliing, wasn't it.

0:42:59.239 --> 0:43:01.840
<v Speaker 1>Did he appear at court? Did he get charred?

0:43:02.640 --> 0:43:03.960
<v Speaker 2>He turned up at court for the A v O

0:43:04.080 --> 0:43:08.880
<v Speaker 2>and didn't contest, which is on reflection, you would have

0:43:08.880 --> 0:43:10.640
<v Speaker 2>thought that he was a type of bully that would

0:43:10.760 --> 0:43:13.279
<v Speaker 2>stand up and fight tooth and nail to oppose those things.

0:43:13.320 --> 0:43:15.080
<v Speaker 2>But he agreed to the conditions on the AVO, but

0:43:15.120 --> 0:43:18.440
<v Speaker 2>knowing full well that subsequent with subsequent days following that,

0:43:18.480 --> 0:43:21.840
<v Speaker 2>he breached it two or three times. He chased it

0:43:21.880 --> 0:43:23.480
<v Speaker 2>one day when she's going to work and stopped her

0:43:23.520 --> 0:43:25.279
<v Speaker 2>in a car and jumped into a car and took

0:43:25.280 --> 0:43:27.799
<v Speaker 2>her keys and threatened her or whatever. He turned up

0:43:27.800 --> 0:43:31.399
<v Speaker 2>at the house, he rang, or he demanded other people ringer.

0:43:31.640 --> 0:43:34.759
<v Speaker 2>So he was constantly breaching the AVO during that period,

0:43:34.840 --> 0:43:36.400
<v Speaker 2>right up until the night of the murders.

0:43:36.880 --> 0:43:39.440
<v Speaker 1>There was a couple of people that he spoke to

0:43:39.680 --> 0:43:43.080
<v Speaker 1>after the firearms were seized, and he went in the

0:43:43.120 --> 0:43:46.040
<v Speaker 1>great detail to say, I don't care because I've got

0:43:46.080 --> 0:43:49.239
<v Speaker 1>some more that. So he was blaming the fact that

0:43:49.239 --> 0:43:51.080
<v Speaker 1>he's still got the firearms.

0:43:50.719 --> 0:43:52.600
<v Speaker 2>So advertising the fact that he had the fight.

0:43:52.680 --> 0:43:55.480
<v Speaker 1>And who were the people who was a consulted speaking to.

0:43:55.640 --> 0:43:59.000
<v Speaker 2>But oddly enough, he went back to a mate associates

0:43:59.040 --> 0:44:01.040
<v Speaker 2>that he had through through He didn't have a lot

0:44:01.040 --> 0:44:03.480
<v Speaker 2>of good mates. He just had people that knew through

0:44:03.520 --> 0:44:06.920
<v Speaker 2>business and whatever. And he went back there and basically

0:44:06.920 --> 0:44:09.600
<v Speaker 2>cried on the shoulder and he did that whole wow

0:44:09.760 --> 0:44:11.840
<v Speaker 2>is me, you know, look how poorly I've been treated?

0:44:11.960 --> 0:44:13.640
<v Speaker 2>This is wrong? How can they do this to me?

0:44:13.719 --> 0:44:16.440
<v Speaker 2>I did nothing wrong, you know. And then June, the

0:44:16.760 --> 0:44:19.319
<v Speaker 2>course of the evening, he would talk about, well, you know,

0:44:19.400 --> 0:44:21.160
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna get them. I'm going to kill them. I've

0:44:21.200 --> 0:44:23.400
<v Speaker 2>got they didn't take all my firearms, you know, I've

0:44:23.440 --> 0:44:26.000
<v Speaker 2>got some in the car. His wife, one of his

0:44:26.040 --> 0:44:29.600
<v Speaker 2>wives from his previous wives, talks about the fact that

0:44:29.640 --> 0:44:31.600
<v Speaker 2>he always drove around with firearms in the back of

0:44:31.640 --> 0:44:33.480
<v Speaker 2>his car. So this has been a lifelong thing, and

0:44:33.520 --> 0:44:36.840
<v Speaker 2>he started to just it's an interesting thing that he

0:44:36.880 --> 0:44:38.920
<v Speaker 2>did because there's two ways to you can look at it.

0:44:38.960 --> 0:44:41.719
<v Speaker 2>He either was a cry for help. I want people

0:44:41.760 --> 0:44:44.560
<v Speaker 2>to help me. This woman has done me bad. I'm

0:44:44.600 --> 0:44:48.239
<v Speaker 2>losing the plot. Come and someone helped. Alternatively, he was

0:44:48.360 --> 0:44:52.360
<v Speaker 2>just verbalizing what he was thinking in his private moments

0:44:52.480 --> 0:44:53.719
<v Speaker 2>about what he was planning to do.

0:44:54.360 --> 0:44:57.759
<v Speaker 1>There was some part where he went down and cried

0:44:57.840 --> 0:44:59.600
<v Speaker 1>on the shoulder of his ex wife, and his ex

0:44:59.640 --> 0:45:02.920
<v Speaker 1>wife worried about having him there and flicked him onto

0:45:03.120 --> 0:45:03.560
<v Speaker 1>the daughter.

0:45:04.040 --> 0:45:06.440
<v Speaker 2>The daughter yes, yeah, yeah, because she didn't want him

0:45:06.480 --> 0:45:08.839
<v Speaker 2>in the house because she knew that he'd had had

0:45:09.160 --> 0:45:10.200
<v Speaker 2>would have guns in the car.

0:45:10.360 --> 0:45:13.920
<v Speaker 1>And he and he would talk about his obsession like

0:45:14.239 --> 0:45:17.960
<v Speaker 1>the conversation seemed to steer towards Kerry Anne. The hatred

0:45:18.080 --> 0:45:19.160
<v Speaker 1>of a family.

0:45:19.239 --> 0:45:20.040
<v Speaker 2>Hatred of a family.

0:45:20.239 --> 0:45:24.080
<v Speaker 1>We would be perfect, And those women at the nursing

0:45:24.120 --> 0:45:26.439
<v Speaker 1>home if they all just stayed away with perfect.

0:45:26.239 --> 0:45:33.120
<v Speaker 2>Yep, yep, all the women, and the increased bile and

0:45:33.239 --> 0:45:37.160
<v Speaker 2>hatred that he had for his son once he realized

0:45:37.200 --> 0:45:38.960
<v Speaker 2>that David had been involved.

0:45:39.480 --> 0:45:44.320
<v Speaker 1>So at what stage prior to the shooting spree did

0:45:44.560 --> 0:45:46.600
<v Speaker 1>he become aware that David had, in fact had a

0:45:46.640 --> 0:45:48.520
<v Speaker 1>relationship with Kerry Anne.

0:45:49.080 --> 0:45:50.960
<v Speaker 2>It was pretty close to the shooting spree, wasn't It

0:45:50.960 --> 0:45:54.200
<v Speaker 2>wasn't that far along, he always thought it happened there

0:45:54.200 --> 0:45:58.040
<v Speaker 2>was an incident where when Kerry and David some six

0:45:58.160 --> 0:46:01.399
<v Speaker 2>or twelve months before, Kerriyen and David wanted to meet

0:46:02.640 --> 0:46:04.799
<v Speaker 2>and David was going to babysit a friend at a

0:46:04.800 --> 0:46:08.799
<v Speaker 2>friend's house and carry Anne. She invited Carrien to come

0:46:08.880 --> 0:46:12.000
<v Speaker 2>that night he was babysitting, and he wrote wrote the

0:46:12.280 --> 0:46:15.799
<v Speaker 2>friend's address on a piece of paper, and Carrie Ane

0:46:15.800 --> 0:46:17.520
<v Speaker 2>wrote it on a piece of paper and that's what

0:46:17.560 --> 0:46:19.160
<v Speaker 2>she used to get to the address. And they spent

0:46:19.200 --> 0:46:21.000
<v Speaker 2>the night there at that address and went to the

0:46:21.000 --> 0:46:24.080
<v Speaker 2>pub and whatever. On one of the evenings subsequent to that,

0:46:24.120 --> 0:46:26.800
<v Speaker 2>when Baker was snooping through Carrie Anne's wonderl flat, he

0:46:26.840 --> 0:46:28.320
<v Speaker 2>found the note with a piece of paper on it

0:46:28.320 --> 0:46:30.680
<v Speaker 2>which had the address on it, and he started ringing

0:46:30.680 --> 0:46:32.960
<v Speaker 2>the owner of the house, accusing him of an infidelity

0:46:33.000 --> 0:46:35.279
<v Speaker 2>towards Kerriyen. And it was only laid down the track

0:46:35.360 --> 0:46:38.520
<v Speaker 2>that he realized that the David told him that that

0:46:38.680 --> 0:46:40.560
<v Speaker 2>the truth about this is oh yeah, carry and came

0:46:40.560 --> 0:46:43.880
<v Speaker 2>around we've just been friends and whatever. But that increased

0:46:43.920 --> 0:46:47.479
<v Speaker 2>his motivation to hassle David to tell him the truth

0:46:47.520 --> 0:46:49.239
<v Speaker 2>about about the relationship.

0:46:49.360 --> 0:46:51.799
<v Speaker 1>I look at the build up there ted and it

0:46:51.920 --> 0:46:55.360
<v Speaker 1>was virtually a full time job. He was completely just

0:46:55.400 --> 0:46:58.799
<v Speaker 1>so it was just obsessed. All the conversations for twelve

0:46:58.840 --> 0:46:59.839
<v Speaker 1>months leading up to the murder.

0:46:59.840 --> 0:47:02.360
<v Speaker 2>He completely obsessed because he didn't work. He just sold

0:47:02.440 --> 0:47:05.120
<v Speaker 2>second end parts. He's ran. You know, he's taking money

0:47:05.120 --> 0:47:07.840
<v Speaker 2>off the poor kids in the caravan. The caravans that

0:47:07.880 --> 0:47:12.000
<v Speaker 2>he rented is on settling health benefits. You know. So

0:47:12.040 --> 0:47:14.200
<v Speaker 2>you had had a lot of time to do.

0:47:14.080 --> 0:47:17.759
<v Speaker 1>This and you look at those those periods of time,

0:47:17.880 --> 0:47:20.720
<v Speaker 1>like we've all got friends that have got an issue

0:47:20.760 --> 0:47:22.920
<v Speaker 1>with something. It might be a relationship, it might be

0:47:22.920 --> 0:47:25.759
<v Speaker 1>a work issue, or where it becomes an obsession and

0:47:25.880 --> 0:47:29.480
<v Speaker 1>obsession and the conversation starts so straight into it. It's

0:47:29.480 --> 0:47:32.399
<v Speaker 1>not how are you, It's virtually there. I've probably burned

0:47:32.400 --> 0:47:34.359
<v Speaker 1>the same, You've burned the same. We all get things

0:47:34.360 --> 0:47:39.040
<v Speaker 1>that are stuck stuck in your head. But this, I

0:47:39.160 --> 0:47:41.319
<v Speaker 1>look at it and I just can't help him. With

0:47:41.440 --> 0:47:43.600
<v Speaker 1>the benefit of the hindsight, that's always great, But there

0:47:43.680 --> 0:47:45.920
<v Speaker 1>was just so many red flags and warning.

0:47:46.680 --> 0:47:48.799
<v Speaker 2>And some of the people that he spoke to were

0:47:48.800 --> 0:47:51.040
<v Speaker 2>fully aware that it was a red flag, and I'm

0:47:51.520 --> 0:47:58.160
<v Speaker 2>I'm amused at the lack of foresight to act on it. Now,

0:47:58.160 --> 0:48:00.000
<v Speaker 2>whether that was in the context of because they are

0:48:00.080 --> 0:48:01.960
<v Speaker 2>on the Western Sydney, whether there was in the context

0:48:01.960 --> 0:48:06.200
<v Speaker 2>of their attitude towards police, or their attitude towards domestic violence.

0:48:06.239 --> 0:48:09.719
<v Speaker 2>They were victims of his power and coercive control. You know,

0:48:09.840 --> 0:48:13.360
<v Speaker 2>these women in particular, weren't going to rise up and

0:48:13.360 --> 0:48:15.160
<v Speaker 2>speak out when they know what he was like, because

0:48:15.200 --> 0:48:17.920
<v Speaker 2>he did it to them for years, and so there

0:48:17.920 --> 0:48:20.600
<v Speaker 2>was that fear thing some of the individual friends or

0:48:20.640 --> 0:48:24.000
<v Speaker 2>business associates that that he revealed that he spoke to

0:48:24.080 --> 0:48:26.120
<v Speaker 2>and said that he was angry and was going to

0:48:26.200 --> 0:48:29.480
<v Speaker 2>kill everybody. Why they didn't raise their hand, I don't know,

0:48:31.120 --> 0:48:33.840
<v Speaker 2>that's up to them to speak to. But again, you

0:48:33.960 --> 0:48:36.440
<v Speaker 2>put it in the context of the society and the

0:48:36.520 --> 0:48:38.680
<v Speaker 2>culture at the time. Put it in the context of

0:48:38.719 --> 0:48:42.120
<v Speaker 2>his power over people, in terms of the way he

0:48:42.160 --> 0:48:44.680
<v Speaker 2>manipulated people and the fear that he created in people.

0:48:45.000 --> 0:48:47.040
<v Speaker 2>Everyone might have just been really shit scared of him.

0:48:47.360 --> 0:48:50.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there's so many reasons why it didn't come up,

0:48:50.520 --> 0:48:53.040
<v Speaker 1>because there was so many opportunities to nip it in

0:48:53.080 --> 0:48:57.440
<v Speaker 1>the bud before the massacre occurred. But there there's this

0:48:57.480 --> 0:49:02.120
<v Speaker 1>thing that's us sitting here, know, like judging today and

0:49:02.520 --> 0:49:05.640
<v Speaker 1>with the standards today, and it makes me feel good

0:49:05.640 --> 0:49:08.080
<v Speaker 1>about the fact that we've really woken up to the

0:49:08.200 --> 0:49:11.480
<v Speaker 1>concerns with domestic violence and the amount of people that

0:49:11.520 --> 0:49:15.000
<v Speaker 1>we see killed as a result of relationship breakups. And

0:49:15.160 --> 0:49:15.640
<v Speaker 1>that's right.

0:49:15.719 --> 0:49:19.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely, it would be completely different. An individual like

0:49:19.200 --> 0:49:22.520
<v Speaker 2>this would hopefully think it's christ and I believe true,

0:49:23.239 --> 0:49:26.600
<v Speaker 2>would soon be cut down very quickly if did this

0:49:26.680 --> 0:49:29.000
<v Speaker 2>sort of behavior. With a lot of the domestic violence

0:49:29.040 --> 0:49:31.200
<v Speaker 2>laws that we've got now and the attitude to policing

0:49:31.280 --> 0:49:33.840
<v Speaker 2>and the community attitude to domestic violence. And now that

0:49:33.840 --> 0:49:36.840
<v Speaker 2>we've got this legislation in New South Wales about coercive control,

0:49:37.440 --> 0:49:39.480
<v Speaker 2>hopefully it never happens again. I'm sure it will, but

0:49:39.800 --> 0:49:40.920
<v Speaker 2>on a scale of this.

0:49:41.400 --> 0:49:44.040
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think people listening to this because when we

0:49:44.280 --> 0:49:47.520
<v Speaker 1>go into what actually happened on the night, the brutality

0:49:47.520 --> 0:49:50.960
<v Speaker 1>and the callousness of what's happened, but people listening to this,

0:49:51.000 --> 0:49:54.240
<v Speaker 1>I hope it's an indicator of warning that if someone's

0:49:54.320 --> 0:49:57.920
<v Speaker 1>verbalizing continuously that I'm going to kill this person or

0:49:57.960 --> 0:50:00.279
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to do this, and just this vent and

0:50:00.360 --> 0:50:05.000
<v Speaker 1>hate and then saying yeah, I don't the cops of

0:50:05.040 --> 0:50:07.680
<v Speaker 1>Susana firearms, but don't worry, I've kept some firearms. I'm

0:50:07.680 --> 0:50:11.160
<v Speaker 1>going to kill these people. Yes, so fairly clear plans.

0:50:11.520 --> 0:50:14.799
<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of lot of raised on debtra there.

0:50:16.480 --> 0:50:21.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so okay, tick tick tick. So just before we

0:50:22.040 --> 0:50:25.359
<v Speaker 1>take a break, what was a catalyst on the day

0:50:25.400 --> 0:50:30.759
<v Speaker 1>to the seventh, twenty seventh of Octavier. What day of

0:50:30.760 --> 0:50:31.280
<v Speaker 1>the week.

0:50:31.120 --> 0:50:32.000
<v Speaker 2>Was it was Tuesday?

0:50:32.239 --> 0:50:35.920
<v Speaker 1>Tuesday? What was a catalyst that day? What was his

0:50:36.120 --> 0:50:39.360
<v Speaker 1>movements on that day? Because you've been on the investigation,

0:50:39.440 --> 0:50:41.919
<v Speaker 1>the research for your book. You get a clear sense

0:50:41.960 --> 0:50:43.840
<v Speaker 1>of what these movements were on the day. So just

0:50:43.920 --> 0:50:47.319
<v Speaker 1>talk us through that day, what the things happened that day.

0:50:47.640 --> 0:50:49.960
<v Speaker 2>I get the sense on that day that he was

0:50:50.320 --> 0:50:52.200
<v Speaker 2>at the height of his brooding, at the height of

0:50:52.239 --> 0:50:55.920
<v Speaker 2>his anger and frustration about what about the failure of

0:50:55.960 --> 0:50:59.360
<v Speaker 2>his relationship with Carry. And there's a circumstance on the

0:50:59.440 --> 0:51:03.520
<v Speaker 2>day or in the recent days, earlier days where he

0:51:03.520 --> 0:51:06.080
<v Speaker 2>had a conversation with Carrianne's mother down in Terarigo where

0:51:06.080 --> 0:51:08.560
<v Speaker 2>he badgered her in Terarigel stuck up behind her while

0:51:08.560 --> 0:51:10.960
<v Speaker 2>she's walking down the street in his Volvo Sedan and

0:51:11.400 --> 0:51:13.200
<v Speaker 2>demanded to see her and she told him to get

0:51:13.239 --> 0:51:14.920
<v Speaker 2>lost and whatever. He followed her up the hill to

0:51:15.120 --> 0:51:17.560
<v Speaker 2>Barnhill Drive and badgering her, I want to see Cary,

0:51:17.560 --> 0:51:18.920
<v Speaker 2>I want to see Cary, and she just told him to

0:51:18.920 --> 0:51:24.359
<v Speaker 2>get lost. That resistance, that powerful resistance by Kerrian's mother,

0:51:24.480 --> 0:51:29.759
<v Speaker 2>I think would would have started the fire for over

0:51:29.800 --> 0:51:32.160
<v Speaker 2>the next few days where he would just get to

0:51:32.160 --> 0:51:33.880
<v Speaker 2>the point where I want to do something. So on

0:51:33.920 --> 0:51:36.440
<v Speaker 2>the night on the evening of the murders, on the

0:51:36.440 --> 0:51:40.840
<v Speaker 2>twenty seventh of October, he's arrived at that. I found

0:51:40.840 --> 0:51:42.799
<v Speaker 2>out subsequent to the publication of the book that he'd

0:51:42.840 --> 0:51:46.320
<v Speaker 2>actually been seen cruising up and down Barnhill Drive on

0:51:46.760 --> 0:51:52.200
<v Speaker 2>the Sunday Sunday before the Tuesday. Nobody reported that Carry

0:51:52.200 --> 0:51:55.160
<v Speaker 2>Anne didn't know about that. That was another member of

0:51:55.160 --> 0:51:55.640
<v Speaker 2>the family.

0:51:55.719 --> 0:51:58.439
<v Speaker 1>It was another person that so cruising past her place.

0:51:58.520 --> 0:52:00.959
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Barnhill Drive doing what he did to the flat

0:52:01.000 --> 0:52:04.360
<v Speaker 2>at one brill just just their intimidation or whatever, just

0:52:04.400 --> 0:52:06.799
<v Speaker 2>seeing who's there, seen with us, she's with a fuller

0:52:06.920 --> 0:52:10.120
<v Speaker 2>or whatever. But on the afternoon of the twenty seventh,

0:52:10.160 --> 0:52:14.520
<v Speaker 2>he parked down the graven the street which was a

0:52:14.600 --> 0:52:17.200
<v Speaker 2>tea inter section at Barnhill Drive, hid his car and

0:52:17.239 --> 0:52:19.640
<v Speaker 2>then he went over to the to the house on

0:52:19.680 --> 0:52:21.760
<v Speaker 2>the pretense. And he talks about that in his interviews

0:52:21.760 --> 0:52:24.239
<v Speaker 2>of having a talk with carry and he just wanted

0:52:24.280 --> 0:52:26.640
<v Speaker 2>to talk to her. And as he's walking up the stairs,

0:52:26.680 --> 0:52:30.239
<v Speaker 2>he hears Carry Anne in the bedroom. She subsequently moved

0:52:30.239 --> 0:52:33.560
<v Speaker 2>to Barnhill Drive. Here's Carry Anne in the bedroom talking

0:52:33.560 --> 0:52:37.360
<v Speaker 2>to a mile. At that point a switch has flicked

0:52:37.400 --> 0:52:40.640
<v Speaker 2>and then he's then left the house, gone back to

0:52:40.680 --> 0:52:44.279
<v Speaker 2>his house. The shotgun that he'd had always had the

0:52:44.800 --> 0:52:49.360
<v Speaker 2>Bentley twelve gage. He sawn the butt off that and

0:52:49.520 --> 0:52:51.800
<v Speaker 2>got a full fill that full of ammunition, got a

0:52:51.800 --> 0:52:54.799
<v Speaker 2>bandalia full of ammunition and returned to the house.

0:52:54.920 --> 0:52:58.360
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so that that that was the day of the

0:52:58.400 --> 0:53:00.680
<v Speaker 1>day of the moon. He's gone gone the house after

0:53:00.960 --> 0:53:04.799
<v Speaker 1>cruising up and down and just obsessed. So the Carrie

0:53:04.800 --> 0:53:07.799
<v Speaker 1>Anne's mother has not bowed down to him when he's

0:53:07.840 --> 0:53:10.279
<v Speaker 1>demanding to see a few days before.

0:53:10.600 --> 0:53:13.359
<v Speaker 2>Earlier that night, I'm sorry I forgot to mention he'd

0:53:13.400 --> 0:53:16.839
<v Speaker 2>actually had a conversation with young Tom, carri Anne's brother,

0:53:16.840 --> 0:53:20.160
<v Speaker 2>who lived at Barnhill Drive down in Terriicle, asking the

0:53:20.160 --> 0:53:23.080
<v Speaker 2>same questions, harassing him about carry Anne and telling him

0:53:23.080 --> 0:53:25.840
<v Speaker 2>it's all her fault and it's not my fault and whatever,

0:53:25.960 --> 0:53:29.080
<v Speaker 2>making excuses for it, and to the point where Tom

0:53:29.320 --> 0:53:32.799
<v Speaker 2>was quite terrified of him. Tom, Tom made him fit,

0:53:32.960 --> 0:53:35.160
<v Speaker 2>very fearful. Was in the past. Tom was only a

0:53:35.160 --> 0:53:37.520
<v Speaker 2>teenage kid and he had scant regard for that.

0:53:37.760 --> 0:53:40.759
<v Speaker 1>You feel for the families, don't you like? What could

0:53:41.000 --> 0:53:44.000
<v Speaker 1>could have or could not have been done, like having

0:53:44.320 --> 0:53:47.799
<v Speaker 1>having him front all the family members, And I'm sure

0:53:47.800 --> 0:53:50.160
<v Speaker 1>he didn't hide the emotion or the anger and that

0:53:50.200 --> 0:53:53.320
<v Speaker 1>when he was speaking to them and they're just keeping

0:53:53.320 --> 0:53:56.040
<v Speaker 1>their fingers crossed at nothing terrible, terrible happens.

0:53:56.080 --> 0:53:59.000
<v Speaker 2>Well, they report, you know, they report that whenever they

0:53:59.000 --> 0:54:01.880
<v Speaker 2>had these connections with him, he had that really cold,

0:54:02.120 --> 0:54:05.399
<v Speaker 2>dead eyed stare that I saw at the police station

0:54:05.480 --> 0:54:07.800
<v Speaker 2>two years earlier when he when he pushed carry in

0:54:07.920 --> 0:54:10.040
<v Speaker 2>and the door to do the fraud. He just had

0:54:10.120 --> 0:54:14.560
<v Speaker 2>no he had He was never diagnosed as a schizophrenic

0:54:14.600 --> 0:54:17.080
<v Speaker 2>and never diagnosed as a as A as A as

0:54:17.080 --> 0:54:21.080
<v Speaker 2>a serious psychotropic illness. He was diagnosed later as a

0:54:21.120 --> 0:54:25.640
<v Speaker 2>personality disorder gets affective personality disorder. But he had that cold.

0:54:25.760 --> 0:54:28.040
<v Speaker 1>You were you were the scener as a psychist, Oh.

0:54:27.920 --> 0:54:29.959
<v Speaker 2>You did, yeah, yeah, Well I kind of that radar

0:54:30.040 --> 0:54:31.959
<v Speaker 2>went up straight away when I first met him, because

0:54:32.000 --> 0:54:34.760
<v Speaker 2>he just he just knew that what he was presenting

0:54:35.080 --> 0:54:37.920
<v Speaker 2>to the outside was not what was going on behind

0:54:37.960 --> 0:54:39.960
<v Speaker 2>his eyes. And he was always like that, you know,

0:54:40.040 --> 0:54:43.279
<v Speaker 2>always like that. And that's but on that particular night

0:54:43.320 --> 0:54:44.920
<v Speaker 2>and the week leading up to it, whenever he had

0:54:44.960 --> 0:54:48.720
<v Speaker 2>those interactions with particularly family members, they were quite fearful.

0:54:48.960 --> 0:54:51.799
<v Speaker 1>Okay, well we might might take a break there. So

0:54:51.840 --> 0:54:55.840
<v Speaker 1>we've got the situation where you've you've articulated very clearly

0:54:55.920 --> 0:54:58.400
<v Speaker 1>the obsession and the type of person that he was

0:54:58.440 --> 0:55:00.759
<v Speaker 1>and the build up to what was going to be

0:55:00.920 --> 0:55:07.000
<v Speaker 1>just a horrendous, violent night. And the catalyst appears to

0:55:07.040 --> 0:55:09.640
<v Speaker 1>be that he's seen carry Anne, the woman he's trying

0:55:09.640 --> 0:55:14.200
<v Speaker 1>to control, and refuses to let go. Hears her in

0:55:14.200 --> 0:55:17.319
<v Speaker 1>the bedroom with another man, and that would have kicked

0:55:17.360 --> 0:55:20.440
<v Speaker 1>off all the insecurities and everything else that goes on

0:55:20.480 --> 0:55:23.120
<v Speaker 1>in his mind. Then he's gone back to his house

0:55:23.200 --> 0:55:24.920
<v Speaker 1>to collect the firearm.

0:55:25.080 --> 0:55:28.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, just saw the butt of it, lay it up

0:55:28.360 --> 0:55:31.920
<v Speaker 2>with ammunition, Okay, and go on his on his bloody odyssey.

0:55:32.239 --> 0:55:32.719
<v Speaker 2>All right.

0:55:32.760 --> 0:55:35.960
<v Speaker 1>Well, look we'll take a break there and warning the

0:55:36.000 --> 0:55:38.720
<v Speaker 1>listeners that are the second part when we talk about

0:55:38.719 --> 0:55:41.880
<v Speaker 1>what carries on on that night, it's something that thankfully

0:55:41.880 --> 0:55:44.120
<v Speaker 1>we don't see very often in this this country.

0:55:44.320 --> 0:55:44.600
<v Speaker 2>True.

0:55:44.800 --> 0:55:46.759
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Okay, we'll be back for part two.