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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy a side of life. The average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode that I Catch Killers. What drives

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Speaker 1: a person to brutally murder six innocent people? How can

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Speaker 1: one man's obsession and pathetic sense of self entitlement lead

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Speaker 1: to mass murder? Today we're going to talk to form

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Speaker 1: a new South Wales detective and a colleague of mine,

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Speaker 1: Ted Bassingwaite, who was a young detective, worked on the

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Speaker 1: Central massacre case in which a complete lay life Malcolm

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Speaker 1: George Baker killed six innocent people, including his ex girlfriend

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Speaker 1: and son. The controlled rage and brutality of that night

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Speaker 1: had a lasting impact on Ted and the people whose

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Speaker 1: loved ones were murdered in cold blood. He has written

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Speaker 1: a book titled Bloody Odyssey about the events leading up

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Speaker 1: to that massacre, what took place on the night, and

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Speaker 1: the aftermath. It's a harrowing account of mass murder on

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Speaker 1: a scale rarely seen in this country. Ted carries with

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Speaker 1: him the attention to detail which is part of being

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Speaker 1: a good detective. We're going to talk about the murder

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Speaker 1: of six people, and I think it's appropriate this stage

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Speaker 1: to mention the names of the six victims. Kerry Gannon,

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Speaker 1: Lisa Gannon, who is also eight months pregnant, Thomas Gannon,

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Speaker 1: David Baker, Ross Smith, Leslie Bred. They are all murdered

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Speaker 1: on the evening the twenty seventh of October nineteen ninety two.

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Speaker 1: Ted Bethnon. Wait, welcome to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Gary. I appreciate the chance to

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Speaker 2: talk about my book, Bloody Odyssey.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's been been a long time, hasn't it.

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Speaker 2: It has, mate, Yeah, it has. It's as I mentioned before,

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Speaker 2: when I met you. You haven't changed, and hopefully I

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Speaker 2: haven't changed.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we haven't aged a bit.

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Speaker 2: We have an aged a bit.

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Speaker 1: I've got the same hairstyle.

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Speaker 2: You've got the same hairstyle. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think it was the early nineties when we started

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Speaker 1: working together in North Region crimes.

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Speaker 2: It was it was nineteen ninety five, I believe. And

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Speaker 2: I came up from a Newcastle where I was working

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Speaker 2: in the North Region office in Newcastle in the child

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Speaker 2: Protection unit and I had a personal issue where a

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Speaker 2: marriage failed basically and I had to I chose to

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Speaker 2: leave Newcastle and it was very fortunate to get a

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Speaker 2: job firstly in the Gosford drugs, good place I didn't

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Speaker 2: want to be. And a friend of mine, Phil Vickery,

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Speaker 2: who was a sergeant at the Child Protection in Chatswood,

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Speaker 2: spoke to the at the time Ron Smith, and they

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Speaker 2: gave me a chance and I joined the team there

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Speaker 2: in major crime. Chatswould right next to your office.

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Speaker 1: Some of the I in my memory and recollection of

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Speaker 1: the cops. It was some of the best years in

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Speaker 1: my time. I enjoyed that so much. And when we

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Speaker 1: reconnected a month or so ago and we're talking and

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Speaker 1: I didn't realize well, I realized that you and Peter

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Speaker 1: Harkness had got together. But love's found the way and

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Speaker 1: you're still together.

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Speaker 2: Love. Love did find a way. It certainly didn't bloom

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Speaker 2: immediately in that office. Peter was she's twelve years younger

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Speaker 2: than me and saw me as damage goods probably, But

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Speaker 2: we worked together very closely in that office. And then

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Speaker 2: it's so funny the course of events. And during that

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Speaker 2: time we did a lot of work in your office

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Speaker 2: with you guys, and we had the workload of the

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Speaker 2: child protection there was immense And the Royal Commission happened

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Speaker 2: in ninety five ninety six, and the impetus on the

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Speaker 2: second phase of the Royal Comision, the peder segment. They

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Speaker 2: were keen to change the way police were doing child

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Speaker 2: sexual assault investigations. And Peter and I were basically taken

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Speaker 2: out of that office after the Royal Commission and forced

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Speaker 2: transferred into an office in Redfern. But we had to

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Speaker 2: travel back to the Northern Beaches to do our job

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Speaker 2: because in essence, the Royal Commission created a situation where

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Speaker 2: we weren't trusted. We needed this big command of control

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Speaker 2: over us, which happened with all the crime squads at

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Speaker 2: the time, as you remember, with the organizational structure and

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Speaker 2: changes that happened. And when we moved to Redfern, we

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Speaker 2: became really close and over time we realized we were

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Speaker 2: falling in love. And then I got a job at

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Speaker 2: the academy, teaching on the detectives on the investigator's course

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Speaker 2: at the Academy, and Peter went to the fraud squad

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Speaker 2: and then we thought we love each other, and then

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Speaker 2: both and I said to her one day, after twelve

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Speaker 2: months at the academy, I said, there's two jobs going

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Speaker 2: in the country, one a detective at Noarandra and a

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Speaker 2: detective at Griffith. Do you want to come? At that

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Speaker 2: time we're just boyfriend and girlfriend said yes, So we

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Speaker 2: ended up going time.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to have to change the name to catch killers?

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Speaker 1: Do I find love of recent times? All the police

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Speaker 1: I get on the found relationships. Maybe we should have

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Speaker 1: spent more time, more time concentrating on the work than

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Speaker 1: looking for love.

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Speaker 2: Well for sure, But Garry on reflection, you know, when

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Speaker 2: you're in those intense work for places that we're in

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Speaker 2: and you're working so closely with somebody, it's not it's

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Speaker 2: hard to have a normal life and your partner in

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Speaker 2: the work sense. Peter and I just became partners in

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Speaker 2: a work sense. It just grew into that relationship. You know,

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Speaker 2: later on down the year, psychiatrists have said we're co

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Speaker 2: dependent on each other, which I don't see that as

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Speaker 2: a bad thing because we survived together and we're still together.

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Speaker 1: No, it's beneficial to have someone that understands the work

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Speaker 1: that you're going through. And yeah, there were some pretty

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Speaker 1: intense times. I think I started first working with Peter

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Speaker 1: when she was working on the North Shore rapist case

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Speaker 1: with Jaco and Andy Waterman. Who ya at your stage

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Speaker 1: of your career, my stage all looked up to those

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Speaker 1: guys that was working with the legends.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely, And I know Peter from memory. Peter was

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Speaker 2: picked for that job because of her interviewing skills and

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Speaker 2: her high level detective skills. And she didn't realize at

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Speaker 2: the time, but she was quite privileged to be in

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Speaker 2: that position. I mean a lot of a lot of

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Speaker 2: others around her would would have envied her that position.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we're working working with legends like Paul Jacob and

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Speaker 1: Andy Andy Wardoman. That's where I attribute those two for

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Speaker 1: teaching me my trade. Absolutely detective, but they were good

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Speaker 1: years and I think the culture that we had, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: there was shame that came to all major crime detectives

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Speaker 1: when the Royal Commission came through. But I've got to

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Speaker 1: say the respect I had for the people that were

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Speaker 1: our bosses at the time at North Region that I

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Speaker 1: haven't found something like that in the cops since at

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Speaker 1: that time.

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Speaker 2: No definitely changed. It was more about there was a

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Speaker 2: more collegiate approach in the crime squad with the bosses

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Speaker 2: that we had. I mean, you could have had bosses

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Speaker 2: who really just treated us as numbers. But I think

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Speaker 2: Ron Smith and the bosses that I met with the

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Speaker 2: crime squad, John Heslop, even when I went over to

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Speaker 2: Redfern to the new sex crime Squad, that they had

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Speaker 2: your back in a lot of sense. But then eventually

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Speaker 2: over time bureaucracy kind of got on top of them.

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Speaker 1: I often think about leadership in the police and I remember,

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Speaker 1: like Ron as a boss and I was fortunate enough

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Speaker 1: to also have Nick Cowdos as a boss as well.

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Speaker 2: He trained Peter as a UC. Well, she.

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Speaker 1: Is blessed she's be trained by the masters. But you

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Speaker 1: did the right thing and you worked for those people.

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Speaker 1: And I think the difference with what I see with

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Speaker 1: some of the leadership now and even before I left

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Speaker 1: left the police, is that the people that were leading

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Speaker 1: you had done the work. And I think in an

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Speaker 1: organization like the police, that counts for so much. Absolutely, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if Ron Smith tells me to do something, I do

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Speaker 1: it because I know he's done it before. And like

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Speaker 1: I worked under Paul Mager and then Paul Jacob and

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Speaker 1: Andy Warterman getting advice about homicide, well they'd been there,

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Speaker 1: done that, and they were people that you wanted to

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Speaker 1: do the right thing by because the respect that you had.

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Speaker 2: And they're not pretending and that and obviously that all

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Speaker 2: changed after the Royal Commission and they increased the layers

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Speaker 2: of accountability with inspectors and you had people being promoted

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Speaker 2: way above beyond their experience. Then it just become too

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Speaker 2: bure Greek. They wanted to break up the bureaucracy which

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Speaker 2: they saw has potentially corrupt or inert, and created a

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Speaker 2: bigger bureaucracy that made it more inert.

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Speaker 1: And we lost lost the focus. And I think when

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Speaker 1: I look back speaking to you and Peter, who was

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Speaker 1: with the catch up before we started the podcast that

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Speaker 1: at those those times we were allowed to concentrate on

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Speaker 1: being detective. That's right, that was the sole focus. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't about all these management and filling out these forms.

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Speaker 1: And you know, we're running the business as a profit.

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Speaker 1: Well it's not a business. It's a police now, and

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Speaker 1: accountability is important. But accountability at the cost of proficiency,

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Speaker 1: you know, and outcomes is not good. And that's what's

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Speaker 1: happened subsequently. I wonder why, in part that's the reason

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Speaker 1: we're having trouble attracting people to the police across across

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Speaker 1: the country because something that saddens me that all the police,

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Speaker 1: all the state police forces, federal police force, all seemed

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Speaker 1: to be struggling with resourcing the police. And I think

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Speaker 1: back at the times that we had it was the

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Speaker 1: world's greatest job.

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Speaker 2: There was the world's greatest job. And you know, there's

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Speaker 2: multiple issues. I think that the increase of social media,

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Speaker 2: the increase of accountability, hasn't been matched by an increase

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Speaker 2: in income or end or support or end or career development.

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Speaker 2: And so I think police in the field now may

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Speaker 2: very well feel a bit more isolated. I never felt

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Speaker 2: isolated wherever I was, whatever job I was. Even when

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Speaker 2: I worked in the as a country detective down in Arrange,

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Speaker 2: out by myself in the middle of the night, I

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Speaker 2: just knew that someone was going to be there from

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Speaker 2: a bus down to colleague was. Now I get the

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Speaker 2: sense that that's not the same. I actually had an

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Speaker 2: experience recently where I had a conversation with a young

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Speaker 2: constable and he was his counter skills were very non existent.

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Speaker 2: There wasn't any person any service approach at the counter.

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Speaker 2: And then I got to talk to him about it, Toddy,

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Speaker 2: I was retired, and then I'm talking about my environment

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Speaker 2: with the Police Association and all that sort of stuff,

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Speaker 2: and he was just so negative about everything that's going

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Speaker 2: on in the job. And I could see it on

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Speaker 2: his face and I could feel it in the room.

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Speaker 2: And I thought to himself like, and I said, how

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Speaker 2: much service have you got? He said two and a

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Speaker 2: half years, And I thought, you know, I don't know

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Speaker 2: how it's got to that.

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Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of pressure on junior police

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Speaker 1: because yeah, and again if I reference it to what

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Speaker 1: we met in major crime, yes, that you find yourself

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Speaker 1: in tough pressure positions on investigations. You know, do I

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Speaker 1: go left? I do go right. What I could go

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Speaker 1: to people like Paul Jacob, Paul mager Ronson and say, okay,

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Speaker 1: this is the lemma I've got, and they would give

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Speaker 1: me good sage advice on how to deal with the

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Speaker 1: situation because they've been there and done that. I worry,

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Speaker 1: and I'm looking from the outside as you are. I'm

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Speaker 1: worried that sort of experience has been lost and so

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Speaker 1: the young people. It's a blind leading the blind. Then

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Speaker 1: they gave you a boss to ask for advice on

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Speaker 1: the homicide, and that boss may have never worked a homicide.

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Speaker 2: In this case. Yeah, exactly, You're exactly right. You know

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Speaker 2: I had the same situation with Phil Vickery, my sergeant

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Speaker 2: in the child protection there at Chatswood. You know that

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Speaker 2: you just felt like you could make a mistake and

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Speaker 2: then own up to it and then get the right

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Speaker 2: guidance and then just get.

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Speaker 1: And like Phil had all that experience, like he was

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Speaker 1: from the under the expert in that era. All right, well,

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Speaker 1: we've got slightly distracted, but happened.

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Speaker 2: Don't get me started worry about the police.

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Speaker 1: When old colleagues catch up. Why did you join the cops?

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Speaker 2: Well I had I was saying, before to your producer.

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Speaker 2: I did an apprenticeship as a pastry cook when I

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Speaker 2: was a young man because I surfed and pastry cooks

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Speaker 2: could work all night and surf all day. And I

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Speaker 2: was quite unsettled throughout my life. I didn't really know

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Speaker 2: what I wanted to do. I know, when I was

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Speaker 2: a young man, I had a conversation once with my

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Speaker 2: mother that I wanted to be a policeman, and she said,

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Speaker 2: that's not going to happen. She's a Bankstown girl, and

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Speaker 2: she said, I hate coppers. And I never really went

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Speaker 2: down that path. So I did the pastry cooking and

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Speaker 2: then went back to school and was kind of like

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Speaker 2: I was lost in a sense. And it was only

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Speaker 2: after I started a nursing or became a psych nurse.

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Speaker 1: That's right, I forgot.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I did a psych nasing. Well, I did.

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Speaker 2: Before that, I did some journalism or surf journalism. I wrote.

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Speaker 2: I wrote for a surf magazine and did so I

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Speaker 2: had an interest in writing. But then I did the

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Speaker 2: pych nursing and I really loved it. And in hindsight

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Speaker 2: reflect on it, my three sisters and nurses, and my

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Speaker 2: grandmother was a nurse, so it was kind of the

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Speaker 2: way I was going to go. But I really loved

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Speaker 2: the psych nursing because it was intense, but it was

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Speaker 2: a helping profession and I learned a lot, a lot

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Speaker 2: of skills. But when I turned thirty thirty one the

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Speaker 2: New South I was police force in those days, recruited

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Speaker 2: really heavily in Newcastle and they took a lot of tradees,

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Speaker 2: a lot of people with life experience. So at thirty

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Speaker 2: two I just applied and got in. So on that

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Speaker 2: seventh of May I started at the Police Academy at

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Speaker 2: Goldben and I knew the moment I walked in the

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Speaker 2: gate at Gobin on that day, this is what I

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Speaker 2: want to do. It just felt right, garyt. You know,

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Speaker 2: like I never I never had a moment's reflection of

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Speaker 2: this is a shit job. Even though I'd been over

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Speaker 2: the years, had been in some really difficult situations. I

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Speaker 2: always felt that this is what I wanted to do.

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Speaker 2: And I was asked before by your producer, how do

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Speaker 2: I feel about And I said if they rang me

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Speaker 2: and asked me to come back tomorrow, I probably would

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Speaker 2: because you know, I feel that was my vocation, that

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Speaker 2: was my mission in life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're fortunately in life, aren't you if you find

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Speaker 1: something that you're passionate about and you're getting paid to

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Speaker 1: do it. That's how I felt with the cops too,

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Speaker 1: and exactly as you relate. At the moment I walked

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Speaker 1: in the academy, I thought, Yep, this is what I

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Speaker 1: want to do. They're yelling at you, screaming at you,

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Speaker 1: and you're having a bit of fun and they're paying you,

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Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, how good is this?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? That was. We had two hundred plus and mostly

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Speaker 2: men and actually the police commissioners current police commissions out

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Speaker 2: of my class, Karen web we had had. It was

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Speaker 2: just a great environment of people from all around the place,

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Speaker 2: mostly young. I was thirty two, so I was one.

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Speaker 1: Of the old one.

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Speaker 2: There's a couple older than me, but not many. And

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Speaker 2: then my first station at WI, straight up, it was

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Speaker 2: just like it felt like people I'd known all my life.

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Speaker 2: It felt no strangers, and it felt like that everywhere

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Speaker 2: I went.

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Speaker 1: Basically, and what drew you to becoming a detective.

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Speaker 2: Well, oddly enough, once I got into the police station

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Speaker 2: and I was in uniform work, I just didn't I

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Speaker 2: just wasn't stimulated by being in uniform, whether I had

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Speaker 2: an inquiring mind, or I had a bigger ego or whatever,

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Speaker 2: and I was very fortunate. Why the detective sergeant there

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Speaker 2: was a Bill Erickson, and I had a meal room

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Speaker 2: conversation with him one day he said I'd like to

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Speaker 2: have a go, and he rolled his eyes and thought

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Speaker 2: everyone asked me that. And then I just persisted, and eventually,

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Speaker 2: after twelve or eighty months in uniform, I was given

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Speaker 2: an a list spot. While it just happened that one

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Speaker 2: came up. It's about opportunity. One came up, and I

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Speaker 2: was given an aily spot and then went through the

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Speaker 2: process of the investigator's course and then eventually the d's course,

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Speaker 2: mentored by some really good police like Dave Darcy. He

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Speaker 2: was a mentor there. Peter Ryan. You probably don't know

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Speaker 2: George Adrian Ducker, Peter Donaldson.

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Speaker 1: I know Blue Ducker, Blue Daker. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Felt great for me. And because I came to that

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Speaker 2: role as a mature thirty to thirty two year old,

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Speaker 2: I never had any I kind of fitted in with

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Speaker 2: the crew.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, and you had that life experience and

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Speaker 1: way to navigate through large characters. Yeah, that's right, and

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Speaker 1: navigate your way through ted We got you on here

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Speaker 1: talking about crime that I don't think for some reason.

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Speaker 1: I think it happened so suddenly, but people don't fully

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Speaker 1: appreciate it. But murder of six people on one night

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Speaker 1: on the Central Coast is the Central Coast massacre. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't get spoken about a lot, but it was

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Speaker 1: such a horrendous crime. And I've spent the past week

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Speaker 1: reading your book and it sort of brought back all

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Speaker 1: the things that happened on that crime. Yeah, you were

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Speaker 1: you were a young detective at the time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well I was designated. I got designated around about

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Speaker 2: that time, so yeah, I was relatively green.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And we're working on the Central Cast.

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Speaker 2: Working at a while attached to the wildlof as Wines detectives.

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Speaker 1: On did you ever think? And I want to break

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Speaker 1: just so we know and say the listeners know how

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Speaker 1: we're going to do this. I want you to tell

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Speaker 1: us a full story, but before do just an overview

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Speaker 1: of it. That's a serious crime. Did that shock you

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Speaker 1: the magnitude of the crime and the.

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Speaker 2: Nightly did on the night? I mean the apprehension that

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Speaker 2: me and Steve Potter, the young a lister that attended

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Speaker 2: one of the crime scenes with a three separate crime

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Speaker 2: scenes across the whole. So every detective on the central coast,

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Speaker 2: across three l a c. What do they call patrols

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Speaker 2: or l A C's, whatever they were called in those days,

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Speaker 2: was involved and and it was quite shocking, but it

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Speaker 2: was it was very exciting as well in a sense

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Speaker 2: because it was the biggest thing that I that i'd

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Speaker 2: been involved.

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Speaker 1: Well, reading the book, I the adrenaline was kicking in.

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking, yeah, the chaos that the surrounds an event

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Speaker 1: like that, yes, and not an adrenaline then that you're

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Speaker 1: looking for the blood or no, no, no, the excitement

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Speaker 1: that's just okay, this is this is as real as

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Speaker 1: it gets.

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Speaker 2: A big career tests and I wanted to do it properly,

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Speaker 2: and Steve and I, you know, we were given the

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Speaker 2: responsibility of that crime scene and doing and doing statements,

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Speaker 2: knowing full well that everything you said and did eventually

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Speaker 2: could end up in a in a high court situation.

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Speaker 1: Basically, you basically got a gunman on the rage going

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Speaker 1: around just killing killing people. So I want to I

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Speaker 1: want to break it down in the chronology of it

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Speaker 1: and not dissimilar in the way that you've you've set

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Speaker 1: out the book, but let's talk about the offend. The

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Speaker 1: first up, Malcolm Baker, who is who is a person?

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Speaker 2: Malcolm Baker was born into a family a mother, father,

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Speaker 2: two sisters. His father was a returned soldier from the

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Speaker 2: Second World War, but he came back from the war

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Speaker 2: completely damaged. Came back from the war with a lot

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Speaker 2: of souvenirs like spears and whatever, and came back completely

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Speaker 2: addicted to guns. So in the sixties and whatever, he

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Speaker 2: had this family situation with his wife, son and two daughters,

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Speaker 2: and I think Malcolm was the second born, and it

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Speaker 2: was just fear. It was one of those situations where

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Speaker 2: he was a drunk. They lived their life in fear.

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Speaker 2: So Backer grew up in a house where it was

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Speaker 2: just constant fear, constant violence from his father in the

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Speaker 2: initial sense. His father did things like threatening them with

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Speaker 2: threatened the family with firearms. He'd let a firearm off

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Speaker 2: at at his wife and friend, talking over the fence,

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Speaker 2: and accuser of infidelity and punching his wife. A hell

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Speaker 2: of a lots a lot of domestic violence. And he

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Speaker 2: saw all this. At the times he tried to intervene,

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Speaker 2: he was knocked unconscious on one occasion, and he was

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Speaker 2: beaten on other occasions by his father. And I don't

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Speaker 2: want to make an excuse for the guy, because you've

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Speaker 2: got to be responsible for your actions in life. And

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Speaker 2: he had a shit start really in that context, and

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Speaker 2: then he actually subsumed some of his father's personality traits

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Speaker 2: cruelty like vanity, uncontrollable rage, all those sort of things

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Speaker 2: that he saw on his father. Baker wasn't a drinker

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Speaker 2: and didn't have a drug problem. He didn't come to

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Speaker 2: that is a petty criminal as he's growing up doing

398
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Speaker 2: stealing cars last knear. He's a bit of a fraudster

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Speaker 2: as well. So he's so everasually became a minime of

400
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Speaker 2: his dad in a sense if you can read what

401
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Speaker 2: the evidence, which is scant, the evidence that we have

402
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Speaker 2: about his dad from psychological reports that I researched, and

403
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Speaker 2: in doing that, he developed this hate for the opposite

404
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Speaker 2: sex when he was quite capable of having women in

405
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Speaker 2: his life. He had three wives or four wives, nine

406
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Speaker 2: children before he got to the point of carry Anne

407
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Speaker 2: Kerrian Gannon. But in all those previous relationships that all

408
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Speaker 2: the reporting is that he was violent, he was abusive,

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Speaker 2: He was coercive control. He used coercive control, He was jealous,

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Speaker 2: all those things which I think he's bringing to his

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Speaker 2: adult life from his dad.

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Speaker 1: It was like reading the book on how it came out.

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Speaker 1: It was like a sense of entitlement and ownership of

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Speaker 1: a woman that he's with.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. True, Gary, It's not something that I can understand

416
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Speaker 2: as a mar I'm a heterosexual male, and at no

417
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Speaker 2: point have I ever wanted to do what it's reported, Baker,

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Speaker 2: did you know punching women in the face, for instance,

419
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Speaker 2: you know, ruling their life that they can't go out,

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Speaker 2: won't letting them, won't let them work, won't let them

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Speaker 2: have a social life, accusing them of infidelity, and all

422
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Speaker 2: those sorts of things. That the horror that the women

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Speaker 2: that were in his life, some of them didn't hang

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Speaker 2: around for very long. The horror that he inflicted on

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Speaker 2: those women would be unmatched in a sense. And it's

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Speaker 2: quite typical of what we see is going on around

427
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Speaker 2: society today.

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Speaker 1: Well, and happily that we're starting to use the term

429
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Speaker 1: coercive control. And I think that's something that we're becoming

430
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Speaker 1: aware of. We know the patterns, you see the patterns,

431
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Speaker 1: but we didn't really have a word to place on it,

432
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Speaker 1: but the word, Yeah, we're starting to talk about that

433
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Speaker 1: and understanding the impact. So he not only had the

434
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Speaker 1: controlling aspect in the coercive control, it was also the

435
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Speaker 1: physical abuse.

436
00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,480
Speaker 2: Physical abuse as well. Yeah, in the case of carry,

437
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,040
Speaker 2: and he obviously didn't want it to work, didn't want

438
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,680
Speaker 2: to have any finances, didn't want her to see anybody,

439
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:49,359
Speaker 2: didn't want it to have any friends. It was only,

440
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,040
Speaker 2: as I say reporting the book, that once she got

441
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:57,560
Speaker 2: away from his grip, his psychological grip or coercive grip,

442
00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:02,320
Speaker 2: that things improved for her, but unfortunately turned really pair shape.

443
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,200
Speaker 1: For the just blind obsession and jealousy that ye him

444
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:05,680
Speaker 1: to come about.

445
00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:10,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely absolutely, But getting to know the man through

446
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:14,040
Speaker 2: the research, we actually met him in the first instance

447
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,600
Speaker 2: at a fraud doing a fraud investigation, which has talked

448
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,359
Speaker 2: about in the book, So I had first hand knowledge

449
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,480
Speaker 2: of who he was in his presence. But yeah, the

450
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 2: jealousy thing was just all consuming, and I just don't

451
00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:30,919
Speaker 2: understand how that is when it was actually to his

452
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,360
Speaker 2: detriment that he the way he behaved and the things

453
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:35,000
Speaker 2: that he did because he was just leaving a trail

454
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,359
Speaker 2: of human wreckage behind him happened.

455
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,440
Speaker 1: Did they ever get called into account for the previous

456
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 1: relationships and the domestic violence.

457
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,879
Speaker 2: There's no record of that, so that that was just

458
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,679
Speaker 2: the day that women report it. Yeah, you know, and

459
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,400
Speaker 2: that's part of the reason that it was so endemic

460
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:54,480
Speaker 2: in those days, and probably part of the reason that's

461
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:55,320
Speaker 2: still a big problem.

462
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,680
Speaker 1: And without being psychologist, probably emboldens him to think, well,

463
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:00,800
Speaker 1: I've got the way of it before. That's right, I

464
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 1: can get away over it again.

465
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,119
Speaker 2: That's right. Well, they had some of the women that

466
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,560
Speaker 2: have interviewed in the book, they're in the book ex Wives.

467
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 2: They relied on him because he became the breadwinner or whatever.

468
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 2: There might have been a case where they were getting

469
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,520
Speaker 2: sendling benefits or whatever. But in those days, and I

470
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 2: reflect on my mother's and father and my young family.

471
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 2: You know, my mom and dad weren't in a very

472
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 2: happy relationship, but they stayed together out of necessity for

473
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,679
Speaker 2: each other, out of necessity the state, for the family

474
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:30,440
Speaker 2: and whatever. And this is what happened with some of

475
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 2: the women, some of the previous wives.

476
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 1: They hung in there longer.

477
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:35,199
Speaker 2: Hung in there, longer than they should have, until he

478
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 2: got to the point where where they feared for their life.

479
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,200
Speaker 1: Well, there weren't. There weren't many options and still there's

480
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,359
Speaker 1: not enough options now for women to escape from them.

481
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 2: No refugees, no DV services, the police, you know, we

482
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 2: know what the police. How the police reacted to DV

483
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,639
Speaker 2: matters in the nineties and the early eighties, you know,

484
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 2: a completely different approach.

485
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, so when what was the circumstances in which he

486
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 1: met Kerry. Well they were a Gannon.

487
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 2: Kerry and Gannon. They were in the western suburbs of

488
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:16,120
Speaker 2: Sydney and apparently Baker was married at the time, and

489
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:21,159
Speaker 2: over time he just convinced her because she was sixteen

490
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 2: years of age at the time, nineteen eighty five, and

491
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,719
Speaker 2: he was twenty plus years older than her. And you

492
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 2: can imagine this man who has this skill of this

493
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 2: coercive control skill or this the influence he had on

494
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 2: this sixteen year old girl and she just fell into

495
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:37,200
Speaker 2: his spell.

496
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 1: Well it's a real power imbalance that, Like, you've got

497
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,880
Speaker 1: the significant age difference, but you're looking at the sixteen

498
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,439
Speaker 1: year old's life experience and then a man in his

499
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:48,879
Speaker 1: late late thirties.

500
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, that's right, A powerful man in the

501
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 2: sense that the psychological tools that he had to manipulate

502
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 2: and to trick people. Oh, they were at their apex then,

503
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:04,680
Speaker 2: and she was an easy.

504
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 1: Catch, sixteen year old girl. So they ended up in

505
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 1: the relationship.

506
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 2: They ended up in a relationship and it was a

507
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 2: sexual relationship, and they were living together. And he burned

508
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:17,879
Speaker 2: a lot of bridges because he not only was he

509
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 2: a misogynist, whatever, when he the relationships he had with

510
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 2: people that he did business with or friends or mates

511
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 2: or whatever. He burned a lot of bridges. And eventually

512
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 2: he thought he'd get out of the Sydney and he

513
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 2: moved up the Terrygel moved up to Terygol in nineteen

514
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 2: eighty eight.

515
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,680
Speaker 1: Okay, so for people that you know, not Sydney base,

516
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 1: you've got the western suburbs of Sydney basically then moving

517
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,399
Speaker 1: up to the central case Terrile, so you're looking at

518
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 1: the sort of an hour and a half two hours

519
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:48,879
Speaker 1: north of Sydney.

520
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Tarrgoll in eighty eight would would have been

521
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 2: quite It was a holiday area for Sydney people and whatever,

522
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 2: but it still had the opportunity for people that didn't

523
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 2: have a lot of money to go there. And find

524
00:25:58,080 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 2: a spot, and he found a spot on Scenic Drive

525
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:05,639
Speaker 2: where it was basically just a small property off the

526
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 2: Scenic Drive and he had the capacity to have two caravans,

527
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 2: so he brought two cheap caravans and he used that.

528
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 2: He found again young women and young people who were

529
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,159
Speaker 2: homeless or at their wits end, and he put them

530
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 2: into these caravans and charged them rent and whatever. Potentially

531
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 2: he was prostituting some of the women out of there.

532
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 2: There's evidence that he was a driver for an escort

533
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 2: agency in Gosford, so he's doing all sorts of devious

534
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 2: things to make money around the Central Coast and eventually

535
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 2: carry Anne decided to come up to live with. He

536
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,439
Speaker 2: invited her up to live so hic co worster up there,

537
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 2: yeah okay, yeah, completely to the complete resistance from her

538
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:49,439
Speaker 2: mother and her.

539
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 1: Family, so her family could see them.

540
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,920
Speaker 2: From the outset. From the outset. Her mother and her

541
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 2: family a father and sister Lisa, and a brother, young

542
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 2: brother Tom. They were all very resistant to the move,

543
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 2: but it happened.

544
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 1: How old was she when she moved up there.

545
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 2: She's I met in eighty eight, so she would have

546
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 2: been eighteen.

547
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,920
Speaker 1: Okay, yep, all right, so he's probably forty.

548
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, probably, well he's about twenty two years old, yeah.

549
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, and moved up. There was how long were

550
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,160
Speaker 1: they together? Was there any stable time in the relationship?

551
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 2: Okay, so they moved up in eighty eight disaster from

552
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:30,360
Speaker 2: day one disaster from day one, she tried. She realized

553
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 2: after time there was a catalyst. Her sister Lisa wanted

554
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,479
Speaker 2: to younger sister Lisa wanted to leave the western Sydney,

555
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 2: so she decided to come up to the central coast,

556
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 2: Carrie Anne's younger, younger sister Lisa, and she had nowhere

557
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 2: to live, and then Baker invited her to come and

558
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,440
Speaker 2: live in the caravan in the house with the caravans

559
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 2: and whatever. Within days of her being there, Baker, when

560
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 2: Carrie is not at the house, Bakers has tried to

561
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,640
Speaker 2: coax her into the bedroom for sex. And she's resisted this,

562
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 2: and she kept that from herself. She she didn't tell

563
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 2: carry In about that till later.

564
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,640
Speaker 1: And says so much about him, doesn't it. Just when

565
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: in the book when it said the younger sister, I

566
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 1: was thinking, well, we know what's going to happen there.

567
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 2: And exactly exactly what happened, so and that Kerrian didn't

568
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 2: know about that at the time. Lisa and he told

569
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,159
Speaker 2: about that some time later. But Krrian realized when she's there,

570
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 2: she saw a different well, she saw a world that

571
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 2: wasn't western suburbs. He saw opportunity, the beautiful beaches. She

572
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 2: kind of had slight interactions with other people that weren't

573
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 2: in Baker's So.

574
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,400
Speaker 1: I suppose at that age bosoming like seeing the world

575
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: what the world's got the offer.

576
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely, and she decided that she's going to figure

577
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 2: out a way to leave him, and that took her

578
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 2: two or three years to do that.

579
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 1: That's when when he's controlling aspect really came into the

580
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 1: fall absolutely and he fought the tooth and nail, and yeah,

581
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 1: tell us through that. So we've got the situation that

582
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,959
Speaker 1: we've got carrying. Moved up, left family against the family's wishes,

583
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 1: moved up to the Central Coast, living with Baker. Younger

584
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 1: sisters come up. She's living there and she's thinking I

585
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: want a different life and starting to move away. Talk

586
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 1: about the efforts that she made to move away and

587
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: the efforts that he made to keep control over.

588
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 2: So eventually she wanted to get a job. She wanted

589
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 2: some independence. Turning a twenty year old woman twenty plasses,

590
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 2: she wanted some independence, and she badgered him. She wanted

591
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 2: a job. Eventually he relented, and I'm not quite unsure

592
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 2: why he did that, but he did. He relented and

593
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 2: let her get a job at the Evocan nursing Home.

594
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 2: And it was at the Evocan nursing Home where she

595
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 2: met two beautiful women who mentioned in the book Sylvia

596
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,239
Speaker 2: and Maureen, and that these women basically mentored her, and

597
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 2: she saw a different life. She had a job, she

598
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 2: had an income, she had women that were normal, She

599
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 2: had people that were normal, saw people living lives that

600
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 2: were normal. At night, she was going back to that

601
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 2: claustrophobic relationship she had with Baker. But she grew, she

602
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 2: developed some sort of energy or some sort of courage

603
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 2: in that sense to say, well, I want more, I

604
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 2: want more, want more. Baker did everything he could to

605
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 2: spoil the job and whatever. So from out of that

606
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 2: experience in the nursing home, she decided to tell Baker,

607
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 2: I want to leave, I want my own flat. He relented,

608
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 2: He resisted, and resisted and resisted. I'm unclear of what

609
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 2: sort of domestic violence he inflicted on her that period.

610
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 2: There was a circumstance where he did basher during that period,

611
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 2: and eventually he relented and found for her a flat

612
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 2: at Wombrel, which is just a neighboring suburb of Terregol

613
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 2: in the central case. But in finding her the flat,

614
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 2: he organized the flat, He set up the bonds. He

615
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 2: actually made a spare key for himself. He made a

616
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 2: spare key for a car, and she went and let

617
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 2: her go to the flat. She thought she was getting

618
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,719
Speaker 2: away from him. She thought that she was having a

619
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 2: new life, but he was watching her, stalking her. Had

620
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 2: access to the flat all over this time and got

621
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 2: to the point she started working in nursing home in

622
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety one, So that was in nineteen ninety two

623
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 2: that he set her up in the flat at one Brill.

624
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 2: But he he just wouldn't give her any space. He

625
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 2: demanded that she drove from one Brell to the nursing home,

626
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 2: which she had to go past his place, that he

627
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 2: stopped every day and saw and all that sort of stuff.

628
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 1: It was fake independence, wasn't it that?

629
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 2: It was contrived independence that he contrived. He contrived, so

630
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 2: she realized over time that nothing had changed. She was

631
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 2: sleeping in a house by herself. I'm sure he was

632
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 2: turning up and pressuring her for sex while she was

633
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 2: at wm Brill as well, but yeah, over time she

634
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 2: just realized that this is this is not working. Until

635
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 2: that till that fateful night he started.

636
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: He started turning up with the work at the nursing home.

637
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 2: He started to turn up with the work all the time,

638
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 2: particularly when she was moving to the point where she

639
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 2: didn't want to have a bar of him.

640
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: The narrative that he would deliver to is to everyone

641
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 1: he's speaking to, whether it be her family, her work, colleagues,

642
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 1: or whatever, I just want to be friends, Yeah, just

643
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 1: like I get frustrated and angry when you see you

644
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 1: see people like that, and you know, and maybe it's

645
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: because of a life experience or just the work that

646
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 1: we've done. You know this is not going to end well.

647
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 2: No, it's that control. I just want to be friends.

648
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 2: But he still wanted to have sex with her. You know,

649
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 2: he had those conversations with friends that I should be

650
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 2: safe for having sex with me because I'm cleaner, rather

651
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 2: than having sex with someone else. So the sex thing

652
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 2: was quite quite a prominent thing, and he's thinking about that,

653
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 2: about the relationship. But yeah, but the overriding of the

654
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 2: umbrella of it or was his control. You just want

655
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 2: to complete control.

656
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 1: And the had some of the ladies that you mentioned

657
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 1: in the nursing home that would actually stand up to him, and.

658
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 2: They stood up to him. He'd come to the nursing

659
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 2: home and demand to see Kerry in whatever they protect her,

660
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 2: which is quite brave in hindsight when you think about

661
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 2: the capacity that he demonstrated, you know some months later

662
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 2: when he went and did what he did, but they

663
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 2: stood up to him, and oddly enough, on reflection, he

664
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 2: demonstrated a type of cowardice. And for me, the cowardice was, yes,

665
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 2: he turned up, he bullied these women and he stood

666
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 2: at the door, but he never had the courage to

667
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 2: do any more. And when they said no and gave

668
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 2: him that cold face no, he always turned.

669
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 1: And went awake away.

670
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 2: But he come back. He would always come back.

671
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: And when did his son land on the scene, so

672
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 1: his son to his So just because it gets a

673
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 1: little complicated, So we've got Malcolm Baker, we got carry

674
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 1: Anne living separated, but the son, his son David from

675
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 1: a previous relationship.

676
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 2: From his second wife, I believe, wanted.

677
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 1: To reconnect with the father.

678
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 2: Well, he was living on the coast earlier, some years

679
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 2: earlier to that, so he reconnected shortly after the Baker

680
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 2: moved to the coast and that's where he met carry

681
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 2: Ann and then so they had quite a ordinary father's

682
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 2: son relationship. David wanted to be in his father's life,

683
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 2: but he found it really hard because his father was

684
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 2: so obsessive and so demanding. But he persisted with his

685
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 2: dad to have got to the point where he eventually

686
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 2: had enough of his father's bullying and badgering that he

687
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 2: left the Central Coast and his father started to accuse

688
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 2: him David of having an affair with Kerry An. Oddly enough,

689
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 2: they were becoming intimate during that time. Cary Ane was

690
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 2: reaching out to David because he was the closest thing

691
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 2: to Baker at that time, reaching out to him for

692
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 2: some sort of guidance and support, and they did end

693
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 2: up in some sort of relationship during that time, and

694
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 2: Baker was suspicious.

695
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 1: Of that that would have seen his anger and that.

696
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 2: Was the Green Eye Dragon. The jealousy thing happened, and

697
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 2: it was only near the murders, which we're talking about

698
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 2: later that David disclosed to his dad after many many

699
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 2: months or eighteen months of deny, that he'd actually had

700
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 2: a relationship with Karen because he thought it would be

701
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 2: best to tell his dad the truth, and his dad

702
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 2: would go, Okay, now you've told me the truth. Everything's

703
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 2: all right. But it didn't work.

704
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 1: That was the wrong call with other people that he

705
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 1: had fallen out with Ross Smith was that the business transaction.

706
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:19,839
Speaker 1: So this is we're just what I'm trying to do

707
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 1: here is just getting the sense of it. And I

708
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 1: look at a lot of this stuff as sort of

709
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 1: the red flags. You're thinking, this Blake is a ticking

710
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 1: time bomb. Absolutely, and so what was he's falling out there?

711
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 1: But that even led into him controlling Kerry Anne, wasn't

712
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:36,760
Speaker 1: it because he would use her name for his business ventures.

713
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 2: And so that's when I first met Malcolm Baker and

714
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,839
Speaker 2: Kerriyanne at one describe that to me, Well, they came

715
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 2: to the police station. Baker had this idea that he

716
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 2: would get a house up on the coal fields. That

717
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 2: says noock at Millfielder says not, and he'll take Carryann

718
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 2: away from everything that was happening because he's took her

719
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 2: away from Sydney and the family pressures whatever was there

720
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 2: and her father Tom was visiting, and a brother was

721
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:06,359
Speaker 2: there and Anne and a mother was visiting. She He

722
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 2: saw that that that and David Baker was becoming involved.

723
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 2: He saw that that people was losing controls control, basically

724
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 2: losing controler. So he had this idea of building a house,

725
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,760
Speaker 2: of moving to a house up in Millfield. And Ross

726
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 2: Warren Smith was a not a very good house mover

727
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 2: on the Central Coast. He was basically a fraudster and

728
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 2: a crook, but he had he had this business of

729
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 2: moving houses. And Ross had a capacity to move a

730
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:35,800
Speaker 2: house somewhere.

731
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: And he's like, we're talking literally picking pick up house up,

732
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 1: crying on the back of the truck.

733
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:44,280
Speaker 2: And he had the capacity. Then he would sell his skills.

734
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 2: I can move the house, but I can also renovate

735
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 2: it to the point of getting to be livable. And

736
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,240
Speaker 2: so Baker had had acquired some land up there somehow

737
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 2: and the house was on the property. The house was

738
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 2: moved to the property and the girl with Smith was

739
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,800
Speaker 2: to move the house to the renovations or whatever, and

740
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 2: Baker would Carry Ann was the person who was on

741
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 2: the contract to do it, not Baker. So I first

742
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 2: met him when they came to the police station in

743
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety and carry Anne wanted to complain about Ross

744
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,439
Speaker 2: Smith taking all this money and not doing the house

745
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,839
Speaker 2: smooth because he didn't actually do it. He actually did.

746
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 2: Ross Smith actually sold the same house to two other

747
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 2: couples to get the money. He's a good crook, well

748
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 2: not a good crook, he was a crook anyway. So

749
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 2: Carry Anne was at the counter on this particular that's

750
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 2: when I first met her, and I saw Baker outside

751
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 2: the door, hiding behind the screen. And as I spoke

752
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 2: to carry And she told me this story about I

753
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 2: want to complain about this man, Ross Smith, who I

754
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 2: gave all this money to perform these jobs that he

755
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 2: didn't do so basically obtained benefit by deception or something

756
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 2: of fraud. And as I was speaking to carry And

757
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 2: I said, well, you'll need to give me a police statement.

758
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 2: You're happy to come upstairs, and carry Anne turned on

759
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 2: a heel and I I thought she was going to

760
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 2: leave the police station. Baker walked into the police station

761
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 2: and stood in front of us and that's when I

762
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 2: spoke to Baker and he basically stopped her from walking out.

763
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: What was your first impressions of him?

764
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 2: But he was just like cold, like psychopathically cold, like

765
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 2: he had no He had the aviator glasses on and

766
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 2: his uniform of a flannel at shirt and his blue

767
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,799
Speaker 2: jeans and his blue blue singlet underneath, but he just

768
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 2: had no effect. Coming from a psych nursing background, you

769
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 2: can tell some people have no effect, and he had

770
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 2: no effect. He was just cold. And she just said, okay,

771
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 2: let's go up to the office. So we went up

772
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:37,720
Speaker 2: to my office at while Saturday, down in the office

773
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 2: and he stood in the doorway and listen. He wouldn't

774
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 2: take a seat in the office, he wouldn't participate, to

775
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 2: the point where I had to ask him, you know,

776
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 2: what are you doing? Are you all right? Mate? And

777
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 2: eventually we got through the statement an a list in

778
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,839
Speaker 2: the office. Scottie Haynes, he and I did the investigation.

779
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:56,760
Speaker 2: Smith was charged eighty months down the track and Smith

780
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 2: was found guilty on some of the offenses, and unfortunately

781
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 2: the magistrate didn't order any compensation, so Baker Baker lost

782
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 2: the money. But it was Baker that put carry up

783
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 2: just on the protest that she's the one that was

784
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 2: doing the deal. It's her money that she paid.

785
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 1: Again, it's that manipulation. Then control was well, he.

786
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 2: Wanted to cover up the fact that he had money

787
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 2: because he was routing centerin and he wanted to cover

788
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,879
Speaker 2: up the fact that he had the capacity to do

789
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:25,839
Speaker 2: this and just wanted wanted her to be the front.

790
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 1: And the fact he'd been ripped off by Ross Smith.

791
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 1: He became obsessed with him.

792
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 2: Completely obsessed with it, and that ber lit a flame

793
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 2: for revenge that obviously was extinguished on that night in

794
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety two.

795
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 1: What was the circumstances that led to his guns being

796
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,320
Speaker 1: taken off him? Was that carry Anne reporting the domestic violence?

797
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 1: What stage did that come in and what was the

798
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 1: nature of that.

799
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 2: Good So, a week or say before the seventh of

800
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 2: October nineteen ninety two, Baker went into the flat at Carrins,

801
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 2: broke into the flat in the middle of the night

802
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 2: and wake her up and had a conversation with her.

803
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 2: She told him to leave, pushed him, then he punched

804
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 2: her in the face. So he had he kept and

805
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 2: the flat. Okay, he had access to the place all

806
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 2: the time, so he just let himself in, broke in

807
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 2: with the key and had a conversation. She told him

808
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 2: to get out, leave her alone, hit her with her

809
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 2: right punched her in the face, give her a bit

810
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 2: black eye. She had a week off work, went back

811
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,839
Speaker 2: to work. Sylvia and Moore in at the house at

812
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 2: work said what happened, and she eventually told them and

813
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:36,280
Speaker 2: they encouraged her to go to Terryko Police to apply

814
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:36,840
Speaker 2: for an avare.

815
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 1: And this is, if my reading of it too, this

816
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 1: is how the downtrodden victims of domestic violence and that

817
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 1: become She was embarrassed about having the having the black eye.

818
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:48,359
Speaker 2: She was she wanted to hide it for a week

819
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:48,879
Speaker 2: from the friends.

820
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 1: And it's sad, isn't it. Yeah, you get to that

821
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 1: point that they're victims, they've been assaulted and they're embarrassed.

822
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, But if you think about it, it's the pinnacle

823
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,080
Speaker 2: of control of the offender, like the fact that he

824
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 2: knows he can go and bash carry out and the

825
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,760
Speaker 2: consequences he thought at the time are negligent.

826
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 1: What she going to do?

827
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:09,800
Speaker 2: What she going to do? It was only through the

828
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 2: encouragement of her friends at the Evoca nursing home.

829
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 1: They gave her the strength.

830
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 2: They gave her the strength and the advice and she

831
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:18,359
Speaker 2: she went with a sister to to to Gospeld local

832
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 2: Quarter a couple of days later, got the a v

833
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 2: O two days later with the matter was to be heard.

834
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,959
Speaker 2: So the police acted very quickly. And in those days

835
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,879
Speaker 2: the legislation allowed the police to go into the house

836
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 2: not under a search rank, but to be invited into

837
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:35,360
Speaker 2: the house and to search for weapons. Baker had possibly

838
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 2: ten weapons. They found five or seven of the weapons,

839
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 2: but he had two hidden had one hidden in the

840
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 2: in his shed down.

841
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 1: So those were firearms that he had. So yeah, he's.

842
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,360
Speaker 2: A license firearm holder. He had In those days, you

843
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:51,399
Speaker 2: didn't have to register how many firearms you were, which

844
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 2: was a flaw in the legislation. I mean, this is

845
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 2: all post Port Arthur and the like. The New South

846
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 2: Wales government was kind of wrangling with the notion about

847
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,319
Speaker 2: how we can deal with the firearms issue. But he

848
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 2: didn't have to have them identified in a registration.

849
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:08,799
Speaker 1: Of okay, so registered the firearm license holder have as

850
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:09,239
Speaker 1: many fi.

851
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 2: As many as his firearms as his one, you know,

852
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:13,799
Speaker 2: and they just did regular checks and the like, and

853
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 2: he obviously didn't hand over all his firearms. But that

854
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 2: moment that the police came, Teriger police came and took

855
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 2: took the weapons was for me, was the straw that

856
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:26,320
Speaker 2: breake the camel's back in his sense, because he loved

857
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 2: the guns, and he loved the power and the effect

858
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 2: that it had and people knowing he had the guns

859
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 2: more than anything.

860
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 1: And the psychology of it. Do you think, how dare

861
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 1: she calls this drama?

862
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 2: Absolutely? Absolutely what did I do? All I did was

863
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 2: punch in a face. Later in his interview, I punched

864
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 2: her a number of times, so you know she deserved it.

865
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 1: So it's like she's betrayed him by going to the police. Absolutely,

866
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:52,840
Speaker 1: when the firearms were seized, that was how long before

867
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 1: the actual neither of them murder?

868
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 2: Two weeks?

869
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, So it was all all brilliing, wasn't it.

870
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 1: Did he appear at court? Did he get charred?

871
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 2: He turned up at court for the A v O

872
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 2: and didn't contest, which is on reflection, you would have

873
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 2: thought that he was a type of bully that would

874
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 2: stand up and fight tooth and nail to oppose those things.

875
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 2: But he agreed to the conditions on the AVO, but

876
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 2: knowing full well that subsequent with subsequent days following that,

877
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 2: he breached it two or three times. He chased it

878
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 2: one day when she's going to work and stopped her

879
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 2: in a car and jumped into a car and took

880
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,799
Speaker 2: her keys and threatened her or whatever. He turned up

881
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,399
Speaker 2: at the house, he rang, or he demanded other people ringer.

882
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 2: So he was constantly breaching the AVO during that period,

883
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 2: right up until the night of the murders.

884
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,440
Speaker 1: There was a couple of people that he spoke to

885
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 1: after the firearms were seized, and he went in the

886
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 1: great detail to say, I don't care because I've got

887
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 1: some more that. So he was blaming the fact that

888
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 1: he's still got the firearms.

889
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 2: So advertising the fact that he had the fight.

890
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 1: And who were the people who was a consulted speaking to.

891
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 2: But oddly enough, he went back to a mate associates

892
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 2: that he had through through He didn't have a lot

893
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 2: of good mates. He just had people that knew through

894
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:06,920
Speaker 2: business and whatever. And he went back there and basically

895
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 2: cried on the shoulder and he did that whole wow

896
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 2: is me, you know, look how poorly I've been treated?

897
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 2: This is wrong? How can they do this to me?

898
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 2: I did nothing wrong, you know. And then June, the

899
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:19,319
Speaker 2: course of the evening, he would talk about, well, you know,

900
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 2: I'm gonna get them. I'm going to kill them. I've

901
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 2: got they didn't take all my firearms, you know, I've

902
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 2: got some in the car. His wife, one of his

903
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 2: wives from his previous wives, talks about the fact that

904
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 2: he always drove around with firearms in the back of

905
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 2: his car. So this has been a lifelong thing, and

906
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,840
Speaker 2: he started to just it's an interesting thing that he

907
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 2: did because there's two ways to you can look at it.

908
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 2: He either was a cry for help. I want people

909
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 2: to help me. This woman has done me bad. I'm

910
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:48,239
Speaker 2: losing the plot. Come and someone helped. Alternatively, he was

911
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:52,360
Speaker 2: just verbalizing what he was thinking in his private moments

912
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 2: about what he was planning to do.

913
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 1: There was some part where he went down and cried

914
00:44:57,840 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 1: on the shoulder of his ex wife, and his ex

915
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 1: wife worried about having him there and flicked him onto

916
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 1: the daughter.

917
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 2: The daughter yes, yeah, yeah, because she didn't want him

918
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:08,839
Speaker 2: in the house because she knew that he'd had had

919
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 2: would have guns in the car.

920
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 1: And he and he would talk about his obsession like

921
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 1: the conversation seemed to steer towards Kerry Anne. The hatred

922
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 1: of a family.

923
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 2: Hatred of a family.

924
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: We would be perfect, And those women at the nursing

925
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:26,439
Speaker 1: home if they all just stayed away with perfect.

926
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 2: Yep, yep, all the women, and the increased bile and

927
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 2: hatred that he had for his son once he realized

928
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 2: that David had been involved.

929
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:44,320
Speaker 1: So at what stage prior to the shooting spree did

930
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 1: he become aware that David had, in fact had a

931
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 1: relationship with Kerry Anne.

932
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 2: It was pretty close to the shooting spree, wasn't It

933
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 2: wasn't that far along, he always thought it happened there

934
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 2: was an incident where when Kerry and David some six

935
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:01,399
Speaker 2: or twelve months before, Kerriyen and David wanted to meet

936
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:04,799
Speaker 2: and David was going to babysit a friend at a

937
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,799
Speaker 2: friend's house and carry Anne. She invited Carrien to come

938
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 2: that night he was babysitting, and he wrote wrote the

939
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:15,799
Speaker 2: friend's address on a piece of paper, and Carrie Ane

940
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:17,520
Speaker 2: wrote it on a piece of paper and that's what

941
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 2: she used to get to the address. And they spent

942
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 2: the night there at that address and went to the

943
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 2: pub and whatever. On one of the evenings subsequent to that,

944
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:26,800
Speaker 2: when Baker was snooping through Carrie Anne's wonderl flat, he

945
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:28,320
Speaker 2: found the note with a piece of paper on it

946
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 2: which had the address on it, and he started ringing

947
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 2: the owner of the house, accusing him of an infidelity

948
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,279
Speaker 2: towards Kerriyen. And it was only laid down the track

949
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 2: that he realized that the David told him that that

950
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 2: the truth about this is oh yeah, carry and came

951
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 2: around we've just been friends and whatever. But that increased

952
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:47,479
Speaker 2: his motivation to hassle David to tell him the truth

953
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:49,239
Speaker 2: about about the relationship.

954
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:51,799
Speaker 1: I look at the build up there ted and it

955
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:55,360
Speaker 1: was virtually a full time job. He was completely just

956
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:58,799
Speaker 1: so it was just obsessed. All the conversations for twelve

957
00:46:58,840 --> 00:46:59,839
Speaker 1: months leading up to the murder.

958
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:02,360
Speaker 2: He completely obsessed because he didn't work. He just sold

959
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 2: second end parts. He's ran. You know, he's taking money

960
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:07,840
Speaker 2: off the poor kids in the caravan. The caravans that

961
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 2: he rented is on settling health benefits. You know. So

962
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 2: you had had a lot of time to do.

963
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:17,759
Speaker 1: This and you look at those those periods of time,

964
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,720
Speaker 1: like we've all got friends that have got an issue

965
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 1: with something. It might be a relationship, it might be

966
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 1: a work issue, or where it becomes an obsession and

967
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 1: obsession and the conversation starts so straight into it. It's

968
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:32,399
Speaker 1: not how are you, It's virtually there. I've probably burned

969
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:34,359
Speaker 1: the same, You've burned the same. We all get things

970
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 1: that are stuck stuck in your head. But this, I

971
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 1: look at it and I just can't help him. With

972
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 1: the benefit of the hindsight, that's always great, But there

973
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:45,920
Speaker 1: was just so many red flags and warning.

974
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:48,799
Speaker 2: And some of the people that he spoke to were

975
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 2: fully aware that it was a red flag, and I'm

976
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 2: I'm amused at the lack of foresight to act on it. Now,

977
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 2: whether that was in the context of because they are

978
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 2: on the Western Sydney, whether there was in the context

979
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 2: of their attitude towards police, or their attitude towards domestic violence.

980
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 2: They were victims of his power and coercive control. You know,

981
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:13,360
Speaker 2: these women in particular, weren't going to rise up and

982
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 2: speak out when they know what he was like, because

983
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 2: he did it to them for years, and so there

984
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 2: was that fear thing some of the individual friends or

985
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 2: business associates that that he revealed that he spoke to

986
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 2: and said that he was angry and was going to

987
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:29,480
Speaker 2: kill everybody. Why they didn't raise their hand, I don't know,

988
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:33,840
Speaker 2: that's up to them to speak to. But again, you

989
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 2: put it in the context of the society and the

990
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 2: culture at the time. Put it in the context of

991
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 2: his power over people, in terms of the way he

992
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 2: manipulated people and the fear that he created in people.

993
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 2: Everyone might have just been really shit scared of him.

994
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's so many reasons why it didn't come up,

995
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 1: because there was so many opportunities to nip it in

996
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 1: the bud before the massacre occurred. But there there's this

997
00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 1: thing that's us sitting here, know, like judging today and

998
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 1: with the standards today, and it makes me feel good

999
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 1: about the fact that we've really woken up to the

1000
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 1: concerns with domestic violence and the amount of people that

1001
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 1: we see killed as a result of relationship breakups. And

1002
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 1: that's right.

1003
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, it would be completely different. An individual like

1004
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 2: this would hopefully think it's christ and I believe true,

1005
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 2: would soon be cut down very quickly if did this

1006
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 2: sort of behavior. With a lot of the domestic violence

1007
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 2: laws that we've got now and the attitude to policing

1008
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:33,840
Speaker 2: and the community attitude to domestic violence. And now that

1009
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,840
Speaker 2: we've got this legislation in New South Wales about coercive control,

1010
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 2: hopefully it never happens again. I'm sure it will, but

1011
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 2: on a scale of this.

1012
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 1: Well, I think people listening to this because when we

1013
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 1: go into what actually happened on the night, the brutality

1014
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 1: and the callousness of what's happened, but people listening to this,

1015
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:54,240
Speaker 1: I hope it's an indicator of warning that if someone's

1016
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 1: verbalizing continuously that I'm going to kill this person or

1017
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 1: I'm going to do this, and just this vent and

1018
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 1: hate and then saying yeah, I don't the cops of

1019
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:07,680
Speaker 1: Susana firearms, but don't worry, I've kept some firearms. I'm

1020
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 1: going to kill these people. Yes, so fairly clear plans.

1021
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:14,799
Speaker 2: There's a lot of lot of raised on debtra there.

1022
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, so okay, tick tick tick. So just before we

1023
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:25,359
Speaker 1: take a break, what was a catalyst on the day

1024
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:30,759
Speaker 1: to the seventh, twenty seventh of Octavier. What day of

1025
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:31,280
Speaker 1: the week.

1026
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 2: Was it was Tuesday?

1027
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:35,920
Speaker 1: Tuesday? What was a catalyst that day? What was his

1028
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:39,360
Speaker 1: movements on that day? Because you've been on the investigation,

1029
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:41,919
Speaker 1: the research for your book. You get a clear sense

1030
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 1: of what these movements were on the day. So just

1031
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:47,319
Speaker 1: talk us through that day, what the things happened that day.

1032
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 2: I get the sense on that day that he was

1033
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 2: at the height of his brooding, at the height of

1034
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 2: his anger and frustration about what about the failure of

1035
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:59,360
Speaker 2: his relationship with Carry. And there's a circumstance on the

1036
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:03,520
Speaker 2: day or in the recent days, earlier days where he

1037
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 2: had a conversation with Carrianne's mother down in Terarigo where

1038
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 2: he badgered her in Terarigel stuck up behind her while

1039
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:10,960
Speaker 2: she's walking down the street in his Volvo Sedan and

1040
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 2: demanded to see her and she told him to get

1041
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:14,920
Speaker 2: lost and whatever. He followed her up the hill to

1042
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:17,560
Speaker 2: Barnhill Drive and badgering her, I want to see Cary,

1043
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:18,920
Speaker 2: I want to see Cary, and she just told him to

1044
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:24,359
Speaker 2: get lost. That resistance, that powerful resistance by Kerrian's mother,

1045
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:29,759
Speaker 2: I think would would have started the fire for over

1046
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,160
Speaker 2: the next few days where he would just get to

1047
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 2: the point where I want to do something. So on

1048
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 2: the night on the evening of the murders, on the

1049
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:40,840
Speaker 2: twenty seventh of October, he's arrived at that. I found

1050
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:42,799
Speaker 2: out subsequent to the publication of the book that he'd

1051
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:46,320
Speaker 2: actually been seen cruising up and down Barnhill Drive on

1052
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 2: the Sunday Sunday before the Tuesday. Nobody reported that Carry

1053
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 2: Anne didn't know about that. That was another member of

1054
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 2: the family.

1055
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:58,439
Speaker 1: It was another person that so cruising past her place.

1056
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:00,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, Barnhill Drive doing what he did to the flat

1057
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:04,360
Speaker 2: at one brill just just their intimidation or whatever, just

1058
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:06,799
Speaker 2: seeing who's there, seen with us, she's with a fuller

1059
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:10,120
Speaker 2: or whatever. But on the afternoon of the twenty seventh,

1060
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 2: he parked down the graven the street which was a

1061
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:17,200
Speaker 2: tea inter section at Barnhill Drive, hid his car and

1062
00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 2: then he went over to the to the house on

1063
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:21,760
Speaker 2: the pretense. And he talks about that in his interviews

1064
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 2: of having a talk with carry and he just wanted

1065
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:26,640
Speaker 2: to talk to her. And as he's walking up the stairs,

1066
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:30,239
Speaker 2: he hears Carry Anne in the bedroom. She subsequently moved

1067
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 2: to Barnhill Drive. Here's Carry Anne in the bedroom talking

1068
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:37,360
Speaker 2: to a mile. At that point a switch has flicked

1069
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 2: and then he's then left the house, gone back to

1070
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:44,279
Speaker 2: his house. The shotgun that he'd had always had the

1071
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:49,360
Speaker 2: Bentley twelve gage. He sawn the butt off that and

1072
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:51,800
Speaker 2: got a full fill that full of ammunition, got a

1073
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,799
Speaker 2: bandalia full of ammunition and returned to the house.

1074
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:58,360
Speaker 1: Okay, so that that that was the day of the

1075
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:00,680
Speaker 1: day of the moon. He's gone gone the house after

1076
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:04,799
Speaker 1: cruising up and down and just obsessed. So the Carrie

1077
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:07,799
Speaker 1: Anne's mother has not bowed down to him when he's

1078
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,279
Speaker 1: demanding to see a few days before.

1079
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:13,359
Speaker 2: Earlier that night, I'm sorry I forgot to mention he'd

1080
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:16,839
Speaker 2: actually had a conversation with young Tom, carri Anne's brother,

1081
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:20,160
Speaker 2: who lived at Barnhill Drive down in Terriicle, asking the

1082
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 2: same questions, harassing him about carry Anne and telling him

1083
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:25,840
Speaker 2: it's all her fault and it's not my fault and whatever,

1084
00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 2: making excuses for it, and to the point where Tom

1085
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:32,799
Speaker 2: was quite terrified of him. Tom, Tom made him fit,

1086
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 2: very fearful. Was in the past. Tom was only a

1087
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 2: teenage kid and he had scant regard for that.

1088
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:40,759
Speaker 1: You feel for the families, don't you like? What could

1089
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:44,000
Speaker 1: could have or could not have been done, like having

1090
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:47,799
Speaker 1: having him front all the family members, And I'm sure

1091
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:50,160
Speaker 1: he didn't hide the emotion or the anger and that

1092
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:53,320
Speaker 1: when he was speaking to them and they're just keeping

1093
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:56,040
Speaker 1: their fingers crossed at nothing terrible, terrible happens.

1094
00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 2: Well, they report, you know, they report that whenever they

1095
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:01,880
Speaker 2: had these connections with him, he had that really cold,

1096
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:05,399
Speaker 2: dead eyed stare that I saw at the police station

1097
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:07,800
Speaker 2: two years earlier when he when he pushed carry in

1098
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 2: and the door to do the fraud. He just had

1099
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:14,560
Speaker 2: no he had He was never diagnosed as a schizophrenic

1100
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:17,080
Speaker 2: and never diagnosed as a as A as A as

1101
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 2: a serious psychotropic illness. He was diagnosed later as a

1102
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:25,640
Speaker 2: personality disorder gets affective personality disorder. But he had that cold.

1103
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 1: You were you were the scener as a psychist, Oh.

1104
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:29,959
Speaker 2: You did, yeah, yeah, Well I kind of that radar

1105
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:31,959
Speaker 2: went up straight away when I first met him, because

1106
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:34,760
Speaker 2: he just he just knew that what he was presenting

1107
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:37,920
Speaker 2: to the outside was not what was going on behind

1108
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:39,960
Speaker 2: his eyes. And he was always like that, you know,

1109
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:43,279
Speaker 2: always like that. And that's but on that particular night

1110
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:44,920
Speaker 2: and the week leading up to it, whenever he had

1111
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:48,720
Speaker 2: those interactions with particularly family members, they were quite fearful.

1112
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:51,799
Speaker 1: Okay, well we might might take a break there. So

1113
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:55,840
Speaker 1: we've got the situation where you've you've articulated very clearly

1114
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:58,400
Speaker 1: the obsession and the type of person that he was

1115
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:00,759
Speaker 1: and the build up to what was going to be

1116
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 1: just a horrendous, violent night. And the catalyst appears to

1117
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 1: be that he's seen carry Anne, the woman he's trying

1118
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:14,200
Speaker 1: to control, and refuses to let go. Hears her in

1119
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:17,319
Speaker 1: the bedroom with another man, and that would have kicked

1120
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:20,440
Speaker 1: off all the insecurities and everything else that goes on

1121
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:23,120
Speaker 1: in his mind. Then he's gone back to his house

1122
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 1: to collect the firearm.

1123
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:28,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, just saw the butt of it, lay it up

1124
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:31,920
Speaker 2: with ammunition, Okay, and go on his on his bloody odyssey.

1125
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:32,719
Speaker 2: All right.

1126
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:35,960
Speaker 1: Well, look we'll take a break there and warning the

1127
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:38,720
Speaker 1: listeners that are the second part when we talk about

1128
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:41,880
Speaker 1: what carries on on that night, it's something that thankfully

1129
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 1: we don't see very often in this this country.

1130
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 2: True.

1131
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:46,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, we'll be back for part two.