1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:03,160 Speaker 1: Andrew Carpenter, who's a lawyer, and you will have heard 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,160 Speaker 1: me speak with Andrew any number of times over the 3 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:08,640 Speaker 1: course of the year and last year as well. He 4 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: puts out weekly on his Instagram page the number of 5 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 1: child sex abuse cases before the courts on any given day. 6 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: Does it weekly for each day of the week, and 7 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:22,479 Speaker 1: he sent me a note during the week to say, 8 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: the last two weeks from the ninth of September more 9 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: percentage cases than he's ever seen before. So Monday the 10 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: ninth there were twenty of all the cases before the courts, 11 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: twenty five percent were child sexual abuse. As was the 12 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,840 Speaker 1: case on Tuesday, it filled an eighteen percent on Wednesday, 13 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: fifteen percent on Thursday, back up to twenty two percent 14 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: last Friday. Monday just gone thirty three percent, Tuesday thirty 15 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: two percent, Wednesday dropped to sixteen Thursday thirty three percent. 16 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: They're just terrible stats. Good morning morning. 17 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:05,759 Speaker 2: Yeah. I've been doing victims survivor work for about thirteen 18 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 2: years now. At the start of this year, I thought, 19 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 2: why don't I start doing a weekly stat to show 20 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 2: how actually bad it is, because people don't really understand 21 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:16,680 Speaker 2: how problematic and how terrible these crimes are like stats 22 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 2: show that one in three girls and one in five 23 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 2: boys will be sexually beautiful their eighteenth birthday, and nothing 24 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:25,119 Speaker 2: was happening, nothing was changing, So I thought it's best 25 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 2: to publish these daily stats to show how truly bad 26 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 2: and concerning it is. 27 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:32,679 Speaker 1: Most are what incest Yeah. 28 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:36,680 Speaker 2: So eighty percent of claient of crimes are incesture, and 29 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 2: ninety three percent are known to the victim survivor. So 30 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:41,960 Speaker 2: if it's known, it's either people in positions of power, 31 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 2: family friends. But the hard thing is they can't be 32 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 2: reported on because those crimes, if you identify the offender, 33 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 2: you identify the victim survivor, and that can't be done 34 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 2: under the Evidence Act. 35 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: It's unbelievable that this is happening across Adelaide to that extent. 36 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: And these are the ones caught, These are the ones 37 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 1: that perhaps the child comes forward until somebody about Yeah. 38 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 2: So it takes on average twenty nine years to report. 39 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 2: And there was a study done in twenty twenty two 40 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 2: that show that every one thousand reports, only one hundred 41 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 2: get investigated by police. Really, six get convicted and three 42 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 2: get overturned on appeal. So it's a ninety nine point 43 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 2: nine nine seven percent chance of getting away with these crimes. 44 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 2: And you know, it's a very taboo subject. People don't 45 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,679 Speaker 2: want to talk about it. But when the numbers of 46 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 2: this shocking and this appalling, it's something that we need 47 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 2: to have these uncomfortable conversations. 48 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:34,519 Speaker 1: About what can happen, what should happen. I mean, there's 49 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: obviously a crime, there's a law to prosecute that crime, 50 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: yet the conviction rate is so low. 51 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 2: Well, nothing's been done on the front end to actually 52 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:44,519 Speaker 2: stop this from occurring. 53 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 1: So it can be done though if it's incestual, if 54 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: it's behind closed doors, it comes down to the child 55 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:51,919 Speaker 1: telling somebody about it. 56 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 2: It is, but it's more about to terence. So we're 57 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 2: not seeing people getting arrested with you know, ten child images. 58 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 2: You're seeing hundreds of thousands of images. And I started 59 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 2: the Super Survivors campaign a few years ago to actually 60 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 2: say that how you might not get convicted on the 61 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 2: criminal side of this, but on the civil side you 62 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 2: should stand to lose all of your superinnuation for engaging 63 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:14,920 Speaker 2: in these crimes. So the reason why all of us 64 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 2: don't use our phones while we're driving is the fear 65 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 2: of a fine and demerit points. But every single person 66 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 2: that you know of in that's the driver will almost 67 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 2: often or always touch their phone in the car. But 68 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 2: the reason why you're not texting at the traffic lights 69 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 2: is the fear of getting caught. Now, with the conviction 70 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,359 Speaker 2: rates that appallingly, we need to do something to sidestep 71 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 2: and the government needs to throw whatever they can at 72 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 2: this to stop it from occurring. 73 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely so, are you seeing any hope of that happening. 74 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 2: Well, the campaign has been going for almost five years. 75 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 2: Nothing yet, No, nothing from the states of governments. Yeah, 76 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 2: nothing from the State Labor government. Laura Henderson, the Shadow 77 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 2: Attorney General, has been amazing to push things through Parliament, 78 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 2: but there's just nothing that's been done to actually quell 79 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 2: these numbers. 80 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: All right, you mentioned Laura. She is called in Shadow 81 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: Assistant Minister for Child Protection. Laura Henderson. 82 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 3: Good morning, Good morning, Matthew, good morning, Andrew, good morning 83 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 3: to you. 84 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:09,839 Speaker 2: Listen. 85 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: Now, these are terrible statistics. I don't know if you well, 86 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: you must have heard me read them out at the start. 87 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: You've called in since so thirty percent thirty three one 88 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 1: in three cases before the courts on any particular day 89 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 1: pretty much on average, is now child sexual abuse. That's 90 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 1: that's just appalling. 91 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 3: And I don't know at what point this became just 92 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 3: another day either and at what point it should be 93 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 3: the front page of every paper. We know we're in 94 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 3: a child protection crisis, and I mean, statistically speaking, we 95 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 3: know that it takes on average around twenty four years 96 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 3: for survivors of child sexual assaults to actually come forward 97 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,359 Speaker 3: and to tell someone what's happened to them. We also 98 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:51,160 Speaker 3: know that a lot of people will never actually come 99 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 3: forward to report these these crimes, so realistically, the prevalence 100 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:57,840 Speaker 3: of it in our community will be far higher than 101 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 3: the statistics that we're even seeing list in the district 102 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 3: court at the moment, and that's what really concerns me. 103 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 3: So we know that a lot of the perpetrators for 104 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 3: child sexual offenses are people that are known to children 105 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 3: and often it may be family members as well. Whilst 106 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:18,280 Speaker 3: it won't be the case for everyone that's going through 107 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 3: the district court at the moment, it is the case 108 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 3: for many of them. So for us, we've been calling 109 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 3: on the government and calling on the Royal Commission into 110 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 3: Domestic Family and Sexual Violence to be able to address 111 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 3: the concerning prevalence of child sexual assaults in South Australia, 112 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 3: especially where it is within the confines of the family 113 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 3: home and family environment, which is something that you touched 114 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 3: on before. 115 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 1: Absolutely all right, you're in opposition. You can't do anything 116 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: except try to convince the government to act on this. 117 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: The question is, and Andrew's been doing this for five years. 118 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:49,359 Speaker 1: You've been in opposition for almost three Why didn't the 119 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 1: former government, the Marshall government, act on this for the 120 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: two years that Andrew's been pushing it. 121 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 3: Well, I can only comment on since I've been in 122 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 3: the Parliament, and I can tell you that I've been 123 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 3: really trying to champ in and put a spotlight on 124 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,480 Speaker 3: child sexual assault survivors and making sure that they've got 125 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 3: the support that they need, which is why I've moved 126 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 3: a motion in the Chamber to be able to call 127 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 3: on the federal government through the State Labor government, to say, 128 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 3: come on, get a show on the road with this 129 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 3: super for Survivors legislation. I have written to Stephen Jones 130 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,160 Speaker 3: and highlighted the fact that they did make a commitment 131 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 3: to bring this. My understanding they were meant to bring 132 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 3: it last year we're still actually yet to see any 133 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 3: legislation on that front, so something I'll continue to advocate for. 134 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 3: I'll continue to advocate for making sure that we're looking 135 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 3: at ways that we can reduce this heinous activity. I 136 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 3: did meet with the Royal Commissioner into Family, Domestic and 137 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 3: Sexual Violence quite recently and I have raised these concerns 138 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 3: with her, so looking forward to her report when she 139 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 3: hands it down. 140 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: Does this Natasha stop the spoyer? Yes, correct, All right, 141 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 1: appreciate your time this morning. 142 00:06:57,880 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 3: Thank you, Thanks very much. 143 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,799 Speaker 1: Laura Henders, a Shadow Assistant Minister for Child Protection. Okay, 144 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: look that sounds positive, Andrew, but in opposition, well, you 145 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: can only hope for the best. Yeah, make the case 146 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: and hope. 147 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 2: Well, it's just a matter that we've been loving for 148 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 2: that long and this is such an obvious need to occur. 149 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 2: Like Jackie Lamby was talking before about the superannuation of 150 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 2: age care, the federal labor government have said that they 151 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 2: would never touch superannuation. But we saw to me to 152 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 2: one point two billion dollars shortfall in the edge care sector. 153 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 2: They started taxing that people that had more than three 154 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 2: million dollars in super thirty percent. So it's a very 155 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 2: it's a bit of a slap in the face. So 156 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 2: I've been advocating for this long and they're saying they 157 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 2: can't touch super but to me to shortfall, they're more 158 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,239 Speaker 2: than happy to touch that. But you know, the message 159 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 2: to me is effectively, we'd rather touch hard working Australian 160 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 2: super than try and change laws to go after the 161 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 2: super of pedophiles. But I mean, this is a standalone crime. 162 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 2: It's not going to be an issue where we asked 163 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 2: the super to go to every other thing. There's no 164 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 2: legal justification for the sexual abuse of a child and 165 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 2: that's why it's a standalone claim that the super should 166 00:07:57,800 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 2: be claimable. 167 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: What reaction if you had from the state government, the 168 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: minister when you've put this to it, nothing, nothing, there's 169 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: no response. 170 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 3: No, I. 171 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 2: Won't say who. I was asked to go to a 172 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 2: meeting with someone from Labor Party a few weeks ago. 173 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 2: I was invited to that and when I arrived at 174 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 2: the building, I got told I was allowed in because 175 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 2: I'm doing too many civil actions against the state. Now, 176 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 2: I was invited to go there and I got turned 177 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 2: away at the door. So are you kidding? No? 178 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: And that was to meet with government people with ministers. Correct, 179 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 1: unreal and they invited you. Yes, that's incredible, it is. 180 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 1: So have you put that to the person who invited you? 181 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 2: Not yet, okay, but they're well aware of or it 182 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 2: was the minister who actually advised their adviser to come out. 183 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 2: It was me and two other gentlemen were all invited, 184 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 2: and then I basically got told at the door I 185 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:49,079 Speaker 2: had to leave the building because I'm doing too many 186 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 2: actions against the state government at the moment. So it's 187 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 2: hard to be a part of the solution when you're 188 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 2: a part of the problem. Yeah. 189 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: So all right, they've invited you and then blocked you 190 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: from entering. That just staggers. Yeah, you must have felt 191 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: the same. 192 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it was definitely a bit of a shock 193 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 2: because I've met with that person a few times in 194 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 2: the past. 195 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a I mean, it's a case of you 196 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: get the image of the three monkeys, don't you the 197 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: eyes and don't speak no evil, see no evil, hear 198 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: no evil. They don't want to hear anything. 199 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:19,959 Speaker 2: But the thing is this is this is no longer 200 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 2: a knowledge problem. It's an accountability problem. Like the government 201 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 2: knows how bad these numbers are I've been reporting them 202 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 2: for a year, You've spoken about them multiple times, but 203 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 2: nothing's changed. 204 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it leads to it, and your way of 205 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: tackling it is through superannuation. Just take that away through. 206 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 2: Just so ebnuation, but also having these uncomfortable conversations because 207 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 2: if you're a parent, grandparent, auntie, uncle, you don't want 208 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 2: to you don't want your young girl to be the 209 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 2: one in three or your young boy to be the 210 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 2: one in five. To put those numbers in perspective, an 211 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 2: average classroom of thirty, statistically speaking, eight of those children 212 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 2: will be sextually beautiful birthday. 213 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's terrible. There's no other words for it. 214 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: That's is wrong. Andrew, thank you for your time today 215 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: as always, and we'll stay in touch. And these figures 216 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: just absolutely astounding that around a third of all cases 217 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: on selected days over the last two weeks. 218 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 2: It's definitely uncomfortable topic, but I'm very thankful for you 219 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 2: to always find the flag and to highlight how bad 220 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 2: this really is. Well, it's just terrible. Well done on 221 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 2: the stats you put out every day, and you can 222 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 2: follow Andrew on Instagram you'll see them there. He puts 223 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 2: it out once a week, I think on Fridays with 224 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 2: the week's report as to how many cases have been 225 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 2: in court for that week, what percentage of being child 226 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 2: sexual abuse, And as he said, most of it is incestual, 227 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 2: which isn't good. I mean, it's happening behind closed doors 228 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 2: in the children's own home or the home of a relative, 229 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 2: where they should be safe, where they should be trusting 230 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 2: the person therewith, and so sad that that is not 231 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 2: the case. Just absolutely tragic.