WEBVTT - The truth about Trump's war on fentanyl

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<v Speaker 1>In the waters off the Caribbean, the United States military

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<v Speaker 1>has been blowing small boats out of the water.

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<v Speaker 2>The US military is using lethal force to blow up

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<v Speaker 2>boats that it claims they're carrying drugs.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, look, all I.

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<v Speaker 3>Know is this. Every boat that you see get blown up,

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<v Speaker 3>we saved twenty five thousand dollar average lives, twenty five

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<v Speaker 3>thousand lives.

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<v Speaker 2>It's done this at least twenty times, killing at least

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<v Speaker 2>eighty people. And in one case it's in the headlines

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<v Speaker 2>right now. Orders were given to ensure that there would

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<v Speaker 2>be no survivors.

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<v Speaker 4>Both the House and Senate Republicans and Democrats like Senators

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<v Speaker 4>Read and Wicker calling for an investigation into war crimes here.

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<v Speaker 2>And this goes to.

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<v Speaker 1>Guess as the Secretary of Defense Pete heigsas Feis's questions

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<v Speaker 1>about whether he's orders are illegal. Donald Trump is doubling

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<v Speaker 1>down threatening strocks on Venezuelan soil.

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<v Speaker 2>It's important to note that the people in these boats

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<v Speaker 2>have never been charged with a crime, is certainly not

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<v Speaker 2>convicted of a crime, and yet they received the death penalty.

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<v Speaker 2>And this is because the Trump administration claims that we

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<v Speaker 2>are in a war against what they call Noco traffickers.

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<v Speaker 1>It's the latest escalation in Donald Trump's self declared war

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<v Speaker 1>on Fentanyl, a campaign that casts foreign traffickers as the

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<v Speaker 1>villains behind America's overdose crisis. But the origin of America's

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<v Speaker 1>fentantal problem lies much closer to home inside the country's

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<v Speaker 1>own pharmaceutical industry. I'm Daniel James, and you're listening to

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<v Speaker 1>seven AM today drug a story and professor David Herzberg

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<v Speaker 1>on how the fentanyl crisis really started and why the

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<v Speaker 1>war to stop it could make everything worse. It's Monday,

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<v Speaker 1>December eighth. David, I think it's worth getting a sense

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<v Speaker 1>of how bad the API or crisis is in the

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<v Speaker 1>United States right now. What are we seeing at the moment.

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<v Speaker 2>It's really bad, and the hard to wrap your brain

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<v Speaker 2>around thing is that it's that bad, but it's gotten better.

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<v Speaker 2>So we're at about eighty thousand deaths in twenty twenty four.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a lot of deaths, and it's down from a

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<v Speaker 2>long stretch years and years and years where there were

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<v Speaker 2>more than one hundred thousand deaths per year, and most

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<v Speaker 2>of those deaths did involve fensanyl. It's incredibly potent, and

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<v Speaker 2>that potency means that it's hard to package for safe use.

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<v Speaker 2>You have to mix it perfectly because if there are

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<v Speaker 2>even any little tiny clumps, the tiniest little things can

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<v Speaker 2>lead to contamination and overdose. So it's simply not a

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<v Speaker 2>great product from the consumer's point of view. It's really dangerous.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's great for smuggling because it's potent, which means

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<v Speaker 2>it's easy to conceal, and the amount of profit you

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<v Speaker 2>can make per unit of weight is higher. And in

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<v Speaker 2>a prohibition market, whatever makes it easier to smuggle is better.

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<v Speaker 1>Side Trumpetney's officials side that these fans and is coming

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<v Speaker 1>from Venezueila, and that the cruise on these boute nachie

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<v Speaker 1>terrorists responsible for killing tens of thousands of Americans.

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<v Speaker 5>The American people are safer because narco terrorists. No, you

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<v Speaker 5>can't bring drugs through the water and eventually on land.

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<v Speaker 5>If necessary have to do to the American people, we

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<v Speaker 5>will eliminate that threat, and we're proud to do it.

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<v Speaker 1>What should we make with those claims.

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<v Speaker 2>At the most direct level, they, as far as we're

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<v Speaker 2>able to tell, are simply false. Venezuela is not a

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<v Speaker 2>source of drugs heading to the US. At least in

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<v Speaker 2>any significant way. And in general, fencanyl isn't coming into

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<v Speaker 2>the United States over water. In general, it comes in

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<v Speaker 2>over the land border. But let's step back from the

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<v Speaker 2>specifics and address the broader claim that foreign traffickers are

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<v Speaker 2>causing this fencinyl crisis and that we can fix the

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<v Speaker 2>crisis if we stop them. The trouble is in America now,

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<v Speaker 2>there are many people who are addicted to fencanol, and

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<v Speaker 2>that means that they're very strongly motivated to continue to

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<v Speaker 2>buy it. So if we were able to shut down

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<v Speaker 2>the fencinyl supply chain, those people would still be there

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<v Speaker 2>wanting to buy a fencanyl And so you'd have a

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<v Speaker 2>situation where supply and demand are mismatched. And we know

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<v Speaker 2>what happens in that situation. Prices go up, and when

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<v Speaker 2>prices go up, the profits for selling the product also

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<v Speaker 2>go up, and that'll draw in new suppliers to meet

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<v Speaker 2>the demand. But in an illegal market, there's no rules

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<v Speaker 2>for the competition, there's no boundaries for the competition, so

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<v Speaker 2>you often get violent competition, and the winners tend to

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<v Speaker 2>be the ones who are the most ruthless, they're the

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<v Speaker 2>most violent, they're the most effective, and historically speaking, in

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<v Speaker 2>the Americas, they often tend to move closer to the

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<v Speaker 2>end consumer in other words, the United States, because that

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<v Speaker 2>is more efficient. So if we were somehow able to

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<v Speaker 2>shut off the supply of fentanyl, we might soon be

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<v Speaker 2>facing something even worse than we currently have now.

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<v Speaker 1>So Hey does his feet in the Trumps border war

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<v Speaker 1>on drugs rectory.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it fits into is broader war on drugs rhetoric,

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<v Speaker 2>and it also fits into the biggest narrative of the

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<v Speaker 2>Trump administration. His favorite story is that Democrats betrayed America

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<v Speaker 2>by opening up the borders and allowing first the jobs

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<v Speaker 2>to be sucked out and then the drugs to be

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<v Speaker 2>smuggled in.

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<v Speaker 6>For decades, open borders have allowed drugs and gangs to

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<v Speaker 6>pour into our most vulnerable communities. They've allowed millions of

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<v Speaker 6>low wage workers to compete for jobs and wages against

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<v Speaker 6>the poorest Americans.

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<v Speaker 3>Theoretical Democrats want to turn America into one giant sanctuary

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<v Speaker 3>for dangers, criminal aliens, and every American should know that

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<v Speaker 3>if they purchase illegal drugs, they are helping to finance

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<v Speaker 3>some of the most violent, cruel, and ruthless organizations.

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<v Speaker 1>Anywhere in the world.

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<v Speaker 6>Illegal drug use is not a victimless crime.

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<v Speaker 2>So blowing up boats really should be seen as part

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<v Speaker 2>of his bigger plan to build a fortress America that'll

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<v Speaker 2>stop foreigners from taking advantage of the country, and it'll

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<v Speaker 2>allow this traditional, wholesome America to flourish again once it's

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<v Speaker 2>no longer being exploited by these villainous foreigners. There are

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<v Speaker 2>problems with the story, lots of problems with this story,

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<v Speaker 2>but just in the drug context, foreign drugs didn't cause

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<v Speaker 2>the opioid crisis, and stopping the fenyl supply chain won't

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<v Speaker 2>solve the crisis. In fact, at an even deeper level,

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<v Speaker 2>Trump is spinning a fantasy about traditional America. I'm a

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<v Speaker 2>historian of drugs in America. Traditional Americans used a ton

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<v Speaker 2>of drugs. We've had a long series of addiction crises,

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<v Speaker 2>starting right at the beginning of the country at what

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<v Speaker 2>historians in my field call the Alcoholic Republic, right after

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<v Speaker 2>the American Revolution. So it's important to recognize that using

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<v Speaker 2>drugs is very traditional in America. There is no drug

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<v Speaker 2>free traditional America to return to.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming out the true cause of the epioid cross is

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<v Speaker 1>in America. So Trump's story on the fentanyl crosses is

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<v Speaker 1>one of wakeboarders and foreign traffickers, cattels and chemicals coming

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<v Speaker 1>from Mexico and China. What does the real history of

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<v Speaker 1>the fantanl crosses look like?

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<v Speaker 2>So the fentanyl crisis didn't start with a foreign trafficker,

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<v Speaker 2>It started with an American pharmaceutical company.

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<v Speaker 5>Once you've found the right doctor and have told him

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<v Speaker 5>or her about your pain, don't be afraid to take

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<v Speaker 5>what they give you.

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<v Speaker 4>Often it will be an opioid medication.

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<v Speaker 2>Essentially, Starting in the nineteen nineties, the pharmaceutical industry was

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<v Speaker 2>able to overcome the traditional market regulations that prevented a

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<v Speaker 2>sales boom in medical opioids.

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<v Speaker 4>Doctors know many of those patients aren't really there for pain,

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<v Speaker 4>but seeking a prescription for addiction, claiming a growing number

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<v Speaker 4>of lives.

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<v Speaker 2>And so you had a dramatic increase in the amount

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<v Speaker 2>of opioids just floating around in certain communities, and that

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<v Speaker 2>made them really easy to get, and so a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of people became addicted to them.

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<v Speaker 1>Over the first time, overdose deaths from prescription drugs outpace

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<v Speaker 1>car crash fatalities in the United States.

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<v Speaker 2>When authorities recognized you know something is wrong here. We

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<v Speaker 2>got to take action. They listened to pharmaceutical industry lobbyists

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<v Speaker 2>who are saying, well, this isn't a problem with us,

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<v Speaker 2>with this industry. The problem is the abusers. They are

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<v Speaker 2>the problem. They're coming in and making bad use of

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<v Speaker 2>our product. And so the first set of actions that

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<v Speaker 2>the government took was to say, Okay, we got to

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<v Speaker 2>stop selling to these abusers. They're the problem. So imagine

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<v Speaker 2>there's a generation of people walking out the pharmacy door

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<v Speaker 2>having failed to buy their opioid, but they're still addicted.

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<v Speaker 2>And so this brought in new suppliers, and the new

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<v Speaker 2>suppliers first brought in heroin. But then this moment of

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<v Speaker 2>disruption created an opportunity for innovators, for modernizers, and they said,

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<v Speaker 2>what do we need farms and farmers and cutting open

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<v Speaker 2>flowers with scalpels, like that's very twentieth century. This is

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<v Speaker 2>the twenty first century. Let's use a high tech product,

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<v Speaker 2>a synthetic product. We can eliminate so many parts of

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<v Speaker 2>the supply chain, which is super dangerous in an illegal context.

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<v Speaker 2>And so you saw this switch defensanyl because it was

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<v Speaker 2>good for the suppliers and the consumers didn't have a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of choice.

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<v Speaker 4>We've heard a lot about this country's heroin epidemic, and

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<v Speaker 4>for years, heroin dealers have been using another far more

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<v Speaker 4>powerful drug to cut the heroin they sell. But now

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<v Speaker 4>federal officials are expressing alarm that people are using that

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<v Speaker 4>stronger drug, fentanyl alone, leading to overdoses and deaths.

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<v Speaker 2>And so our policies shifted those markets from pharmaceutical opioids

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<v Speaker 2>to heroin and then defensanyl, and that means our policies

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<v Speaker 2>could switch them back. You know, it's not as sexy

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<v Speaker 2>as saying we're just going to blow all the bad guys,

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<v Speaker 2>but it would be a big public health triumph.

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<v Speaker 1>What do you think when you heat politicians, blind foreign

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<v Speaker 1>traffics in Tolka bat ending these three of military strokes

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<v Speaker 1>on bouts, what's your reaction to that?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, we were just talking about large numbers of deaths.

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<v Speaker 2>Every one of those deaths left people who loved that

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<v Speaker 2>person with grief and fear for the other people and

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<v Speaker 2>their families. And when you're afraid, you want a strong response.

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<v Speaker 2>You want someone telling you that it's going to be

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<v Speaker 2>okay because they're going to protect you. And so there's

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<v Speaker 2>something very emotionally satisfying about saying, these foreign villains are

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<v Speaker 2>doing this to you, and I'm going to get them

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<v Speaker 2>and you'll be safe. But it's also deeply depressing because

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<v Speaker 2>it also just doesn't work, and we have a couple

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<v Speaker 2>hundred year history of seeing how it makes things worse.

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<v Speaker 2>You can win a battle or two, like, who knows,

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<v Speaker 2>maybe we could stop this fens andal supply chain, but

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<v Speaker 2>will it still be gone in two years. It's just

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<v Speaker 2>historically speaking, incredibly unlikely. What we need is something we're

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<v Speaker 2>not going to get, unfortunately, which is the political courage

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<v Speaker 2>to recognize that this is a pragmatic matter. What we

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<v Speaker 2>have is a market for a product that's highly desirable

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<v Speaker 2>and highly dangerous. The market has gone off the rails

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<v Speaker 2>because we haven't regulated it, and as a result, we're

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<v Speaker 2>seeing this kind of public health crisis, and we need

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<v Speaker 2>to step in and do the real work of making

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<v Speaker 2>people safer rather than beating our chest and going after

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<v Speaker 2>foreign boogeymen.

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<v Speaker 1>So you calling for a pragmatic approach, David, History tells

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<v Speaker 1>us what doesn't work. Does history point to us what

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<v Speaker 1>does work?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, in a broad sense, it does. And I'll say

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<v Speaker 2>that in general, we're pretty good at capitalism. We know

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<v Speaker 2>how to build markets so that we incentivize the kind

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<v Speaker 2>of behavior that we want. What has historically worked are

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<v Speaker 2>moments where we have applied the tools we apply in

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<v Speaker 2>the rest of capitalists to drugs. And in the broadest sense,

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<v Speaker 2>this is you robustly regulate providers, manufacturers, sellers, and you

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<v Speaker 2>make a deal with them. You say, you can make

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of money selling this product, but to do that,

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<v Speaker 2>you've got to follow these rules. So think about automobile

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<v Speaker 2>manufacturers have to do all these expensive things to make

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<v Speaker 2>their cars, and they're not allowed to sell super cheap

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<v Speaker 2>cars without anti lock breaks and airbags. You also got

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<v Speaker 2>to recognize that life is imperfect. Hey, we have a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of safety precautions, and there's still a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>automobile accidents. So any system that circulates a potentially dangerous

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<v Speaker 2>product has got to have things in place to care

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<v Speaker 2>for and support people when they're harmed to spital those protections.

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<v Speaker 2>In the case of drugs, historically, what this has meant

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<v Speaker 2>is providing treatment options that need to include access to

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<v Speaker 2>the safest version of the drug that will keep that

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<v Speaker 2>person going. One of the reasons why I don't think

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<v Speaker 2>this will be taken up by politicians. Is people as

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<v Speaker 2>they have for the last two hundred year, will still

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<v Speaker 2>be killed by drugs. I'm not promising a utopia or

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<v Speaker 2>that we can go back to this imagined faeryland when

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<v Speaker 2>everything is wonderful. I'm saying we're gonna honestly do the

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<v Speaker 2>best that we can do, and it'll be better than

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<v Speaker 2>what we're doing now.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, David, thank you so much for bringing it to

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<v Speaker 1>my attention and for coming on seven am this morning.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you for having me.

0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:35.040
<v Speaker 1>Also in the news, Anthony Alberes he knew about and

0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:39.160
<v Speaker 1>approved Communication Minister Anika Wells's decision to spend almost one

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<v Speaker 1>hundred thousand dollars on flies to New York for her

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<v Speaker 1>and two colleagues. Anthony Alberanezi has told the ABC's Insiders

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<v Speaker 1>program the flights were within the rules. Wells had planned

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<v Speaker 1>to travel with the PM to sproute the social media

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<v Speaker 1>ban at the UN but stayed back in Australia for

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<v Speaker 1>longer to deal with the Optus triple zero out each.

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<v Speaker 1>She's now facing questions about other expenses she has claimed,

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<v Speaker 1>including accommodation in Threadbath for her and her family who

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<v Speaker 1>went skiing while she performed parliamentary duties. Wells has defended

0:14:09.640 --> 0:14:11.800
<v Speaker 1>the expense, saying she doesn't write the rules, but she

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<v Speaker 1>did follow them. And social media companies will blur pornographic

0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:19.160
<v Speaker 1>and violent images from December twenty seven under new industry

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<v Speaker 1>drafted rules released by the E Safety Commissioner. The move

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<v Speaker 1>is designed to protect children under eighteen from saying what

0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:29.800
<v Speaker 1>the Commissioner describes as awful but lawful images. Adults who

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<v Speaker 1>wish to view the material will be able to click through.

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<v Speaker 1>The new rules also require social media platforms to redirect

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<v Speaker 1>people looking up suicide, self harm, or eating disorders to

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<v Speaker 1>mental health support services. I'm Daniel James. This is seven

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<v Speaker 1>a m. Thanks for listening.