WEBVTT - Albanese v Dutton: The second leaders’ debate

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<v Speaker 1>You two have known each other a very long time.

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<v Speaker 1>I've witnessed you both over the dispatch box in Parliament.

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<v Speaker 1>You're able to have a chat. You seem to get on.

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<v Speaker 1>I just want to ask.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't want you to ever state it so for

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<v Speaker 2>the kiss of death for both.

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<v Speaker 1>What I wanted to ask is it would really be

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<v Speaker 1>a disaster for the country or is this just a

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<v Speaker 1>bit of political hype if the other guy won.

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<v Speaker 3>Mister Albanzi, I think there are very different values that

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<v Speaker 3>we have.

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<v Speaker 4>In the second leader's debate last night, those different values

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<v Speaker 4>and the two leaders opposing visions for Australia were stark.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm really optimistic about Australia's future if we seize the

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<v Speaker 3>opportunities that are right in front of us.

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<v Speaker 4>Anthony Albanesi continued his pitch to voters that they should

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<v Speaker 4>trust him with another term.

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<v Speaker 1>Well.

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<v Speaker 4>Peter Dutton continued to press the line that Australians have

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<v Speaker 4>gone backwards.

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<v Speaker 2>As we approach the third of my many Australians will

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<v Speaker 2>be asking themselves are you better off today than you

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<v Speaker 2>were three years ago?

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<v Speaker 4>And around, But Albanie and Dutton were united on one thing.

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<v Speaker 4>Neither leader really landed a blow or won the night

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<v Speaker 4>from Schwartz Media. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven AM today.

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<v Speaker 4>My co host Daniel James on the biggest moments from

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<v Speaker 4>the debate, from energy to housing, to diplomacy and defense,

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<v Speaker 4>and why Dutton has had to admit another mistake. It's Thursday,

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<v Speaker 4>April seventeen. Daniel, the debate itself. It started with this

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<v Speaker 4>question about housing and the new housing plans that both

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<v Speaker 4>major parties have released in the last week, and there

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<v Speaker 4>has been widespread criticism from analysts that both plans run

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<v Speaker 4>the risk of driving up house prices. What did you

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<v Speaker 4>make of the way that both men defended what their

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<v Speaker 4>plans are.

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<v Speaker 5>I thought Albanzi was able to speak to his plan

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<v Speaker 5>a little bit more clearly. He was able to mention

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<v Speaker 5>things directly, like building one hundred thousand year homes.

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<v Speaker 3>What we have is a reservation of one hundred thousand

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<v Speaker 3>homes just for first home buyers. That will give them

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<v Speaker 3>an opportunity because they won't be competing with investors.

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<v Speaker 5>And we see that the five percent deposit.

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<v Speaker 3>Now a five percent deposit rather than twenty will mean

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<v Speaker 3>that instead of paying off someone else's mortgage, they can

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<v Speaker 3>pay off their own mortgage.

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<v Speaker 5>Whereas Dutton's planned around being able to claim tax rebates

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<v Speaker 5>on interest rates paid for mortgages is a little bit

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<v Speaker 5>more convoluted and difficult to cut through.

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<v Speaker 2>For the first six hundred and fifty thousand dollars of

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<v Speaker 2>your mortgage that will be interested, you could claim against

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<v Speaker 2>your income. So for an average couple that will be

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<v Speaker 2>about eleven or twelve thousand dollars a year over five years.

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<v Speaker 5>It'll be a lot more for high income. But they

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<v Speaker 5>were both also not willing to go near things like

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<v Speaker 5>negative gearing.

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<v Speaker 1>Neither of you seem willing to touch the negative gearing

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<v Speaker 1>or capital gains tax breaks at this election. You've both

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<v Speaker 1>been property investors over the years. Can you understand younger

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<v Speaker 1>Australians locked out of the market feeling that it is

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<v Speaker 1>people like you who are to blame for the fact

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<v Speaker 1>that systems rigged against them. Mister Albinezi, Well, could I

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<v Speaker 1>make this point David.

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<v Speaker 5>And both lives not willing to go near it with

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<v Speaker 5>a barge pole.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, And there was this question that was put to

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<v Speaker 4>both men around what they'd want to be remembered for

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<v Speaker 4>if you know, they were the Prime minister for the

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<v Speaker 4>next three years and Dutton's answer was basically, energy policy.

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<v Speaker 2>Energy use, the economy. David, everything we use, everything around

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<v Speaker 2>us is either running or has been created because of

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<v Speaker 2>the use of energy farming.

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<v Speaker 4>So what's your read on which leader had the most

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<v Speaker 4>realistic and best version of our energy future.

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<v Speaker 5>I'd have to say that neither leader was particularly convincing

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<v Speaker 5>when talking about their own energy policies. Dutton really struggled

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<v Speaker 5>with being able to explain the detail about how much

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<v Speaker 5>water would be used for modular reactors compared to the

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<v Speaker 5>larger scale nuclear reactors.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, we could spend all night on what I

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<v Speaker 2>think it's really improve. Yes, but but there are different

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<v Speaker 2>depending on the small modular reactor as well, and obviously

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<v Speaker 2>the size of the as to the amount of water

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<v Speaker 2>that's required of the.

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<v Speaker 1>Large reactors you're talking about, and you've got one plan.

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<v Speaker 5>When David Spears pressed to Alban Easy on when he's

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<v Speaker 5>planned for renewables would bring down the cost of energy

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<v Speaker 5>prices for consumers, he couldn't nentwer.

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<v Speaker 3>That Peter Ray's gas is now thirteen dollars. It was

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<v Speaker 3>thirty dollars, and when we came off, thirteen is cheaper

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<v Speaker 3>than thirty.

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<v Speaker 1>When do we see the bill come down.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, what we need to do is to roll out renewable,

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<v Speaker 3>to make sure there's energy security, make.

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<v Speaker 5>Sure which is pretty symptomatic of the way that this

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<v Speaker 5>entire sort of election is being run. Both leaders, when

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<v Speaker 5>it comes to the cost of living in particular, really

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<v Speaker 5>seem to struggle around the edges as to what their

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<v Speaker 5>policies would mean for people in everyday life.

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<v Speaker 4>Coming up after the break, Peter Dutton is not a scientist.

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<v Speaker 4>Let's turn to foreign policy. That is where Albanize started

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<v Speaker 4>to make this case that Dutton was being reckless or

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<v Speaker 4>immature in his responses to world events.

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<v Speaker 3>Diplomacy means engaging seriously in a calibrated, serious way Indonesia

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<v Speaker 3>with respect as we do other nations that we deal with.

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<v Speaker 4>Do you think that he landed that idea.

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<v Speaker 5>We've had the big funeral in the last seventy two

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<v Speaker 5>hours around Dunton claiming the Indonesian President I had spoken

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<v Speaker 5>about having Russian military resources placed in Indonesia, something that

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<v Speaker 5>the Indonesians have refuted and there is no actual evidence

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<v Speaker 5>of the president actually having said that. It plays into

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<v Speaker 5>a broader narrative around Dutton around being a ball in

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<v Speaker 5>a China Shop for one of a much better phrase.

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<v Speaker 5>When it comes to world affairs and policy affairs. He's

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<v Speaker 5>someone who, I think, over the last three years in particular,

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<v Speaker 5>and maybe over the course of his entire political career

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<v Speaker 5>now that I think of it, has been someone that

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<v Speaker 5>has been willing to shoot off at the mouth when

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<v Speaker 5>it comes to particular issues and not really think through

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<v Speaker 5>either the policy or political consequences.

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<v Speaker 4>I think the way that Dutton spoke about his previous

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<v Speaker 4>comments around Russia and Indonesia was interesting. He admitted that

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<v Speaker 4>he had made a mistake.

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<v Speaker 2>So was that a mistake? It was a mistake and

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<v Speaker 2>I'm happy to a bit what we've got.

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<v Speaker 4>This is not the first time we've heard an apology

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<v Speaker 4>from Dutton. Last week it was about his position on

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<v Speaker 4>working from home. So what does this say to you,

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<v Speaker 4>this kind of walking back, this apology for things that

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<v Speaker 4>he said. What does that say to you about how

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<v Speaker 4>Dutton is handling himself at this point in the campaign.

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<v Speaker 5>It shows that his campaign is not going so well

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<v Speaker 5>that he's actually, i would say struggling in this moment

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<v Speaker 5>to be able to cut through, provide a clear narrative

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<v Speaker 5>and made up to his own expectations of as being

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<v Speaker 5>seen as a strong man in a time when we

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<v Speaker 5>here in Australia are looking abroad to see what other

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<v Speaker 5>strong men are doing around the globe. His traditional strongman

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<v Speaker 5>approach is now a double edged sword for him.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, and there was no whether that was more evident

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<v Speaker 4>in the way that he spoke about Donald Trump. So

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<v Speaker 4>he wouldn't really answer the question as to whether or

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<v Speaker 4>not he trusted Donald Trump, which was interesting. But at

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<v Speaker 4>the same time he was also trying to make this

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<v Speaker 4>case that he could have gotten Australia out of the

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<v Speaker 4>tariffs that Trump is imposing. So he's walking this very

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<v Speaker 4>very tricky line. There isn't he you know? Is he

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<v Speaker 4>or is he not close to Trump? What is the

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<v Speaker 4>message that was supposed to take.

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<v Speaker 5>I don't think there's anyone in the country that thinks

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<v Speaker 5>that Peter Dutton isn't more closely aligned to the politics

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<v Speaker 5>of Trump than he has led on during this campaign.

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<v Speaker 5>He was asked on a couple of occasions by David

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<v Speaker 5>Spears whether he trusted Donald Trump, and his line was, well,

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<v Speaker 5>I haven't met him.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to say you trust I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know Donald Trump is my point. My point

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<v Speaker 2>is that who I trust is the Australian people in

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<v Speaker 2>my job.

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<v Speaker 5>He has asked the same question about the Chinese president,

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<v Speaker 5>gig Ping.

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<v Speaker 2>Again, I don't know the president of China, but I

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<v Speaker 2>believe very strongly in the relationship.

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<v Speaker 5>Alberanzi was using the office of the Prime Minister to say, well,

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<v Speaker 5>I've dealt with both men and I have no reason

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<v Speaker 5>not to trust either.

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<v Speaker 3>We have different political systems and that means different values,

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<v Speaker 3>and we have very different values with China. But what

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<v Speaker 3>I've said is we'll cooperate where we can, we'll disagree

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<v Speaker 3>where we must.

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<v Speaker 5>Pointing out, of course, that the Morrison government had no

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<v Speaker 5>diplomatic contact with the Chinese regime throughout their three years

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<v Speaker 5>of government.

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<v Speaker 3>There was no contact, no funatraals, no meetings, no trade well.

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<v Speaker 1>There wasn't diplomatic for its well in terms of the

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<v Speaker 1>trade relationships.

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<v Speaker 5>So there was a point that Alberanzi was able to score.

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<v Speaker 5>But for Dutton, it's a particularly tricky line in that

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<v Speaker 5>he doesn't want to be seen to be too close

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<v Speaker 5>to Trump, but he also wants to highlight the fact

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<v Speaker 5>that he is better placed than Albanzi to be able

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<v Speaker 5>to deal with the Trump presidency, which is a very

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<v Speaker 5>very very fine line to work.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, And there was this other really interesting moment, Daniel,

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<v Speaker 4>where Peter Dutton he said that he does believe in

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<v Speaker 4>climate change, but he sort of refused to link it

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<v Speaker 4>to more regular extreme weather events, saying, you know, I'm

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<v Speaker 4>not a scientist.

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<v Speaker 1>We need to it is getting worse.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I'll leave others to you think, Eric, Well, I'll

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<v Speaker 2>let scientists and others pass that judgment, but.

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<v Speaker 1>Really not willing to say this is climate change happening

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<v Speaker 1>right now?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, as the Prime Minister refused to do the other

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<v Speaker 2>day to make comment in this regard as well. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know, David, because I'm not a scientist and I

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<v Speaker 2>can't tell you.

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<v Speaker 4>Whether do you think that this really ultimately tells us

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<v Speaker 4>anything about Peter Dutton or about Anthony Alban easy that

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<v Speaker 4>we didn't know about their different approaches.

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<v Speaker 5>I think that was a striking moment in the campaign.

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<v Speaker 5>There was enough said by Dutton, enough intimated by him

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<v Speaker 5>to raise the question as to well, does he believe

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<v Speaker 5>in climate science? Does he believe that severe whether events

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<v Speaker 5>are occurring more commonly now because the climate is changing.

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<v Speaker 5>I don't want to give the Prime Minister too much

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<v Speaker 5>credit for his response either, but he said obviously that

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<v Speaker 5>he does believe in climate science.

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<v Speaker 3>The cost to our economy as well as the cost

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<v Speaker 3>of our environment of not acting on climate change, not

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<v Speaker 3>being a part of the global solution severe.

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<v Speaker 5>And if there is a large proportion of the community

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<v Speaker 5>and the electorate that are concerned about both major parties

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<v Speaker 5>climate policies, Glutton's refusal to go full in and respect

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<v Speaker 5>the science around climate for me was a pretty big moment.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah. Another big moment I think is when both leaders

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<v Speaker 4>were asked about Indigenous affairs in Australia and David Spears

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<v Speaker 4>he pointed out the fact that night a leader has

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<v Speaker 4>actually visited an Indigenous community during this campaign so far. Meanwhile,

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<v Speaker 4>the gap widens on many fronts.

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<v Speaker 3>Neither side of politics has done well enough for First

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<v Speaker 3>Nations people. That's just a fact and that's something that

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<v Speaker 3>breaks my heart.

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<v Speaker 4>What did you think as you listen to Anthony Albernesi

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<v Speaker 4>defend his post voice plan for Indigenous affairs.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, you know with this one, I've got a bit

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<v Speaker 5>of skin in the game. Of course. What it speaks

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<v Speaker 5>to is that Labor and Anthony Alberzi, well, so much

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<v Speaker 5>political capital during the referendum that they do not want

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<v Speaker 5>to go near Indigenous affairs as a major issue. But

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<v Speaker 5>as things stand at the moment, the same policy settings

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<v Speaker 5>that have been in place now for close to twenty

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<v Speaker 5>years remain around closing the gap, and neither leader this

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<v Speaker 5>election has painted out a big vision post voice for

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<v Speaker 5>what they see the future is for Indigenous affairs and

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<v Speaker 5>Indigenous Australians.

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<v Speaker 4>Daniel is finally, who do you think? In this debate

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<v Speaker 4>ultimately made the most coherent, the most convincing, the strongest

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<v Speaker 4>case as to why Australians should vote for them.

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<v Speaker 5>It has to be said that both leaders acquitted themselves

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<v Speaker 5>very well. Peter Dutton, as we got towards the end

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<v Speaker 5>of the debate, became stronger. He was very clear about

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<v Speaker 5>his vision about making Australia a more prosperous country, a

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<v Speaker 5>safer country.

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<v Speaker 2>I want to make sure that we can invest into

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<v Speaker 2>defense and make sure that we can take crime seriously

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<v Speaker 2>and reduce the problem of crime as it exists in

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<v Speaker 2>our communities, in our suburbs across the country. My vision

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<v Speaker 2>for our country is to make us a safer.

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<v Speaker 5>Crime in Victoria and in Melbourne in particular, in our

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<v Speaker 5>lectures that he needs to win in outer suburbs is

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<v Speaker 5>a state issue, but is an issue that is on

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<v Speaker 5>the screens of Victorians every night and day. And even

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<v Speaker 5>though his ability as a prime minister or a federal

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<v Speaker 5>leader is somewhat limited to that, to be able to

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<v Speaker 5>cast himself in a position where he can intimate he

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<v Speaker 5>will have an impact on crime rates was something that

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<v Speaker 5>I think he was able to weave in quite clearly

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<v Speaker 5>throughout the debate. But overall I'd have to say that

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<v Speaker 5>it was Albanezi that carried the day. But having said that,

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<v Speaker 5>neither leader landed a knockout blow.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, Daniel, thank you so much for your time.

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<v Speaker 5>Thank you Rerby. Good to speak to.

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<v Speaker 4>You as always. Also in the news today, the UK

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<v Speaker 4>Supreme Court has ruled in favor of gender critical rights

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<v Speaker 4>campaigners and against the Scottish government over the definition of

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<v Speaker 4>a woman. Five judges ruled unanimously that the legal definition

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<v Speaker 4>of a woman did not include transgender women who hold

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<v Speaker 4>gender recognition certificates. The ruling will transgender women will not

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<v Speaker 4>be able to sit on public boards in places set

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<v Speaker 4>aside for women. The campaign group Scottish Trans urged people

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<v Speaker 4>not to panic as they work through the implications of

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<v Speaker 4>the court's decision, and widespread bleaching of the Great Barrier

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<v Speaker 4>Reef has become normalized, according to scientists. Government authorities have

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<v Speaker 4>recorded the six widespread coral bleaching event in less than

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<v Speaker 4>a decade, with back to back bleachings over the past

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<v Speaker 4>two summers. The Ningaloo Reef off the coast of Western

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<v Speaker 4>Australia has also been hit by extreme bleaching and heat

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<v Speaker 4>stress this year. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am.

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<v Speaker 4>Thanks for listening.