1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,880 Speaker 1: This podcast is recorded on gadigal Land Always was, always 2 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: will be Aboriginal Land. 3 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 2: Hey chicks, I'm Zal and I'm ol and this is 4 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 2: two Broke Chicks, the show that shares life lessons and 5 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 2: tips to help make you rich in life. And today 6 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,760 Speaker 2: we are joined by Stephanie Rigg, certified relationship coach and 7 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 2: host of the on Attachment podcast. Today we're chatting to 8 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 2: Steph about attachment styles, the ingredients every relationship needs, and 9 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 2: how to be a better partner. 10 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:36,919 Speaker 3: Welcome Steph, Thanks so much for having me. Guys, I'm 11 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 3: happy to be here. 12 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,239 Speaker 2: We actually get so many questions and dms from the 13 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:42,519 Speaker 2: chicks about this sort of stuff, so we were like, 14 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 2: let's bring an expert in. 15 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:44,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. 16 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 4: It's one of those things that when I meet people 17 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 4: for the first time and tell them what I do, 18 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:51,879 Speaker 4: it's like ooh, and like everyone comes up with, like 19 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:53,199 Speaker 4: everyone's interested. 20 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: I think, are you like a psychic? You know how 21 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: whenever someone meets a psychic, they're like, tell me my future, 22 00:00:57,880 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: and you're like, I'm a relationship back to it and 23 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: they're like tell me my future. 24 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 3: I love it. 25 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 2: But before we get into the questions, we like to 26 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 2: start with a life lesson of the week, So would 27 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 2: you like to kick us off. 28 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 4: Sure. I've actually been reading a book this week which 29 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 4: is called The Comfort Crisis. It's not a new book, 30 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 4: but it's a really interesting one by a guy called 31 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 4: Michael Easter, and it's all about the power of getting uncomfortable, 32 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 4: and so it's not really like a juicy lesson, but 33 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 4: I think it's a good reminder that and it kind 34 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 4: of ties into relationships that so much of our growth 35 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,320 Speaker 4: is in learning to sit with discomfort rather than like 36 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,839 Speaker 4: quickly reaching for someone or something to make that go away. 37 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 4: Because I think that like that's where a lot of 38 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:43,320 Speaker 4: them will get into it. Like a lot of our 39 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 4: attachment patterns are basically like how do I deal with 40 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 4: stress and discomfort in relationships? So maybe the life lesson 41 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 4: is something around a reminder to build our tolerance for discomfort. 42 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 2: I love that because we live in such like a 43 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 2: discomfort of a world, like everything is so easily fixed 44 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 2: by any sort of service that you can access immediately. Yes, 45 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 2: that when a lot of the time we're not used 46 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 2: to having to kind of wait for things or be ye, 47 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:15,399 Speaker 2: sit in that discomfort. So I like that. 48 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think our collective tolerance level is like pretty 49 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 4: low for that and very quick to make discomfort a 50 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 4: problem that needs urgent solving. And I think when it 51 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 4: comes to relationships that can really backfire, that's me. 52 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 3: We're getting. 53 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: Urgent solver, like I reckon. That's probably my life's lesson 54 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: of this week is that there's like it's just been 55 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 1: a really intense week of like problem solving, just. 56 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 3: Like workwise in the back end. 57 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: And at one point it was just a situation of 58 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: me going, Okay, you know, this is going to be 59 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: a really uncomfortable phone call, but I'm just going to 60 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: have it and doing that. And I definitely got off 61 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: and cried, but like during the phone call, I like 62 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,359 Speaker 1: held my ground and blah blah blah blah blah. And 63 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 1: after that, I'm like, do you know what, I'm actually 64 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 1: a lot smarter for doing that really uncomfortable thing, even 65 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 1: though I hated it every second, and I've made multiple 66 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: jokes that I'm never doing it again, But like, you 67 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: just get better and better at being in uncomfortable situations 68 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 1: even though it's something that I hate, Like. 69 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, oh, I didn't die, even though like my system 70 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 4: it's like I didn't die. What other things might be 71 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 4: able to do that I might not die from it. 72 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 1: And that's the thing is I do think as well, 73 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 1: when you're growing up, you sometimes get to an age 74 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 1: that you're like, oh, I'm thirty and I'm supposed to 75 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: be grown, but I literally still feel like a baby sometimes, 76 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: and like you have those moments and I'm like, oh, wait, 77 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: did the thing like a grown up does and I 78 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: did a good job at it, and I'm okay and 79 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: no one's dead and nothing's on fire, and it was 80 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: just that's probably my life lesson of the week that 81 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: as well. Sometimes the thing that you're dreading all the 82 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: uncomfortable conversation doesn't won't go as badly as you think 83 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: it will. And very oftentimes it doesn't go as badly 84 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: as you think it will. 85 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, idea of it, yeah, so much worse. 86 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 2: And then also it's not hanging over you once you 87 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 2: do it, Like you feel so much better once you 88 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 2: do actually have that conversation. 89 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 3: Yes, So I love that. 90 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 2: My life lesson is a little bit different shift gears Witch. 91 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: But I saw that a study. 92 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 2: Found that the strongest friendships are based on shared dislikes, Yeah. 93 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 1: Which I was like, I can see that I feel like. 94 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 2: The best friendship dynamics are when you hate the same 95 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 2: things and people and stuff like. Yeah, I saw this 96 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:39,280 Speaker 2: study published in Personality and Social Psychology bulletin that found 97 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:43,600 Speaker 2: that bonding over shared dislikes, especially people or ideas, can 98 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 2: create faster and deeper connections than bonding over shared likes. 99 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 2: It's called negative social bonding, and it works because mutual 100 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 2: dislikes feel more personal, more intense, and signals compatibility in values. 101 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 1: Know what. That's why I work best friends are like different, like. 102 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 4: We're in the trenches of this hellscape together. That actually 103 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 4: reminds me. I can't remember where I saw it, but 104 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 4: it was years ago and the people created a dating app. 105 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure it was called Hater, and it was. 106 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 4: On that very premise, so it was like your whole 107 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 4: profile was like the shit you hate, and you'd match 108 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 4: with people you'd just like bond over. 109 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 2: Like, Oh, that's so funny, I think you go, let's 110 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 2: jump into the question. But anybody who doesn't know what 111 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,239 Speaker 2: are the attachment styles and can you run us through 112 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 2: three signs of each? 113 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, So attachment styles are born out of attachment theory, 114 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 4: which was originally a body of work in like developmental 115 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 4: psychology in the nineteen fifties looking at infant caregiver style. 116 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:44,479 Speaker 1: Wow, I didn't realize it. 117 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like it's old Yale. 118 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 4: Yeah. And it was only in like the late eighties 119 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:53,040 Speaker 4: nineties I believe that they started kind of extrapolating from 120 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 4: that and going like, wait, we can actually observe similar 121 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 4: sorts of patterns that we see between infant and caregiver 122 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 4: in romantic partners. And so what most people speak about 123 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 4: in terms of attachment styles now is really like a 124 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 4: branch off the tree of that original body of work, 125 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,359 Speaker 4: which was looking at infin care giver stuff. But attachment styles, 126 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 4: the way that I like to describe it, it's essentially 127 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:17,479 Speaker 4: like the things that you've learned to fear or have 128 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,039 Speaker 4: stress around in relationships and the way that you respond 129 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 4: to that. So the strategies that you've come up with 130 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 4: that you probably don't even notice or think about, you 131 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 4: just think are normal, But those are the ways that 132 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 4: you respond when you are feeling stress or fear. And 133 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 4: so when we kind of take that framework, we can 134 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 4: look at anxious attachment, which is one of the attachment 135 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:38,840 Speaker 4: styles and is the bulk of the people I work 136 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,359 Speaker 4: with are anxiously attached, and that sort of used to 137 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 4: be my experience as well. This is like your typical 138 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 4: like clingy, overthinking stress, like really wants relationships, but can 139 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,600 Speaker 4: become very obsessive, like hyper focused on the relationship all 140 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 4: the time, very sensitive to like any cues of disconnection. 141 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 4: If like, oh, you know they're taking twenty minutes to 142 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 4: reply and usually they only take fifteen minutes to reply, 143 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 4: something's very wrong, like very very dialed in and sensitive 144 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 4: to any perceived like abandonment, rejection. And so if that's 145 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 4: the fear, then the response tends to be like do something, 146 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 4: do something to make it stop or make it better. 147 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 4: And so like you might call them eight times when 148 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 4: they're just like in a meeting, and then it's like 149 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 4: your whole body is just taking on this like urgent 150 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 4: message of like we need to solve this problem that 151 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 4: maybe we've just created in our heads, but it feels 152 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:35,559 Speaker 4: very real. And so things like urgently needing to resolve 153 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 4: any conflict in a relationship are part. 154 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 3: Of that as well. 155 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 4: Because there's a very low tolerance law. It's a really 156 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 4: low tolerance like lingering intension. 157 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: I hate that. 158 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it just doesn't. 159 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 4: It's like your system doesn't trust that, Like it's okay, 160 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 4: we will resolve it, and like it's all but it's 161 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 4: like we've got to get there. 162 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:55,559 Speaker 1: It's solving a bit black. I'm like, well, we will 163 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: resolve it, so why sit in an hour and being grumpy. 164 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 2: Make it just very Yeah, I love you, but I 165 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 2: think some people aren't always necessarily ready to Yeah. 166 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, and it depends on your partner as well, right, 167 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 4: And like, I think a lot of where we get 168 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 4: stuck is we assume that someone else will process and 169 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 4: interpret things exactly the way we do, and then we 170 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 4: make all of these assumptions based on that that are 171 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 4: very self centered, and we're like, well, if you you 172 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 4: loved me, you do this, and. 173 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like but it is. 174 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 4: It's like if you cared about me, if you love me, 175 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 4: you would, And it's just like there's a whole lot 176 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 4: of projection and assumption in that that tends not to 177 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 4: be very helpful, but we all do it because we're 178 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 4: all naturally very self centered. Like we've got really good 179 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 4: data on our life experience and like not great data 180 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,359 Speaker 4: and on anyone else's So anyway. 181 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: That's a great way to look at it. 182 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 3: Well, it we've been the. 183 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 4: Like centerpiece of our own existence for like everything we've 184 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 4: ever experienced. Yeah, and you know, then we expect other 185 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 4: people to just like have all of that same data 186 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 4: and do everything from our perspective, and it's like not 187 00:08:59,000 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 4: very realistic. 188 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 3: Yeah helpful. 189 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: So there's an anxious attachment. 190 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:04,839 Speaker 3: Yeah, so anxious is kind of that. 191 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 4: Then avoidant, which is also referred to as dismissive avoidant, 192 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 4: is kind of on the other end of the spectrum. 193 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 4: And that's like, you know, in its more like stereotypical 194 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:19,839 Speaker 4: expression is like quite maybe aloof uncomfortable with intimacy, doesn't 195 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:23,199 Speaker 4: talk much about feelings, more geared towards like rational, might 196 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 4: have fears around commitment, probably quite conflict avoidant, so like 197 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 4: doesn't want to talk about feelings, doesn't want to talk 198 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 4: about relationship problems and all of that. Probably pretty low 199 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 4: patients for you know, by contrast with someone with the 200 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 4: more anxious patterns, who's like, let's talk about improving the 201 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 4: relationship and all of the ways in which we can 202 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 4: be more connected. Someone who's more dismissive avoidant might kind 203 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:49,959 Speaker 4: of roll their eyes and be like, oh, can't you 204 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 4: just be happy with the way things are. 205 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. 206 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:54,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, And so when like a lot of the time 207 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 4: you'll get these two people who have seemingly opposite attachment 208 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 4: patterns in relationship with each other, and like there's a 209 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 4: yin and yang factor there that can kind of the 210 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 4: complementarity can work, but it can also cause a lot 211 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 4: of rupture. And if it's like not handled well, which 212 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 4: most of the time it isn't because most people lack 213 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 4: the skills and awareness to transform that into something that 214 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 4: is like more a middle ground, then it can be 215 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 4: a bit of a shit show, yeah, understandably because it 216 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:26,679 Speaker 4: just becomes a power struggle over like whose way. 217 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: Is right, and so then what are the other two? 218 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 4: So then fearful avoidance or it's also referred to as 219 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 4: disorganized attachment, it sort of sits in the middle. It's 220 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 4: like if anxious attachment ranks high on anxiety, and avoidant 221 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 4: attachment ranks high on avoidance, feel avoidant ranks high on both, 222 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 4: so they're like high anxiety, high avoidance, and so that 223 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 4: can show up. 224 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's kind of. 225 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 4: Widely considered to be the most challenging to live with 226 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 4: because there's like a lot of internal chaos and internal 227 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 4: push pulls. I want intimacy, but also I'm terrified of it, 228 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 4: so I move towards it, and then once I get there, 229 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:03,439 Speaker 4: I'm like, oh God, what. 230 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:05,319 Speaker 3: Have I done? And I've got to pull back. 231 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,199 Speaker 4: And so a lot of people with fearful avoidant attachment 232 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 4: have like they really struggle in relationships for that reason, 233 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,679 Speaker 4: and they tend to, you know, under stress, and particularly 234 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,439 Speaker 4: if they're with a more anxious partner, they'll lean more 235 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 4: towards avoidant responses. 236 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:22,199 Speaker 3: If they're with an avoidant partner. 237 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 4: They might have more of their anxious parts in the 238 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 4: driver's seat, so it's quite contextually responsive. But unlike someone 239 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 4: who's more dismissive avoidant, who might be not so emotionally attuned, 240 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 4: someone who's fearful avoidant tends to carry a bit more 241 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 4: like emotional awareness and therefore guilt and shame. So they 242 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 4: have these big protective responses that cause them to pull back, 243 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 4: but then they feel really guilty about hurting people. So 244 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 4: this might be the kind of person who says, like, 245 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:51,959 Speaker 4: you know, I'm just so bad at relationships and I 246 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:53,319 Speaker 4: don't want to hurt you, and I know that I'm 247 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:54,839 Speaker 4: going to hurt you, and so I have to pull 248 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 4: away like that kind of thing, like I can. 249 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:00,959 Speaker 3: Fix the this is my sweet. 250 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 4: Spot, yeah seriously, And so like that's often what you'll 251 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 4: see in the fearful avoidant is like a lot of depth. Again, 252 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 4: by contrast with them more dismissive avoidant who tends not 253 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 4: to go very deep. People avoidance like all about the depth, 254 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 4: but then they kind of panic and go, oh God, 255 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 4: like I'm stuck, I'm trapped. 256 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 3: This is bad. 257 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 4: I need to to create distance for myself and almost 258 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 4: like self sabotage before you know, I'll leave before you 259 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 4: can leave me. And so those are the three insecure 260 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 4: attachment stars. And then secure attachment is what we would 261 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 4: all kind of hope to in an ideal world. That's 262 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 4: what we would all be, and we can kind of 263 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 4: work towards that. That's the whole point of my work 264 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 4: in anyone else's work who works with attachment, and we 265 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 4: can talk about what that looks like. But secure attachment 266 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 4: is just like this really lovely healthy middle. So securely 267 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:55,559 Speaker 4: attached people, you know, they they generally will seek out relationships, 268 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 4: but they don't need them from this like clutching place 269 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 4: of like I need a relationship to make me feel okay, 270 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 4: and if I don't have one, I'm not going to 271 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:05,839 Speaker 4: be okay. They don't have a lot of fear around intimacy, 272 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 4: but also they're not you know, like they kind of 273 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 4: trust in people and relationships, but with a level of discernment. 274 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 3: So unlike someone. 275 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 4: Who's anxiously attachable just like rush into a relationship at 276 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 4: lightning speed and like kind of throw all discernment to 277 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,199 Speaker 4: the wind because they just want to be connected. Someone 278 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 4: who's securely attached is like just a bit more moderate, 279 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 4: and so like there's just this measured, balanced energy about 280 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 4: securely attached people, and that's why they generally end up 281 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 4: in relationship with each other and the rest of us. 282 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 4: I kind of like to find it out of the polls. Yeah, 283 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:43,439 Speaker 4: it's like they tend to be pretty good at communication. 284 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 4: They tend to have like pretty good self worth and 285 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:49,680 Speaker 4: self esteem, like good modeling around relationships. They have good boundaries, 286 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:52,200 Speaker 4: Like they trust in the ability to work through conflict 287 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 4: without like it feeling like this big life threatening thing. 288 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 4: So there's just this really nice, like balanced middle ground 289 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:00,679 Speaker 4: kind of energy to secure attachment, which I think for 290 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:04,079 Speaker 4: a lot of people they're like, huh, that exists. 291 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 1: That's what I was going to say is like, I 292 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: think a lot of chicks listening to this would probably 293 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: relate to the anxious, or avoidant or the disorganized. I think, 294 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 1: you know, we'd all love to think of ourselves as 295 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: a secure attachment, but we probably do a little bit 296 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 1: to those three, which is fine, Like that's okay, yes, 297 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: but if you do want to work on that, if 298 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: maybe someone was listening to this being like, shit, I 299 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: really am an anxious attachment style? Can you change that? Can? 300 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: Which you kind of just alluded to before, like, how 301 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: do you go about evolving your attachment style? 302 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, so you absolutely can. 303 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 4: The great thing about this body of work is that 304 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 4: your attachment style is not some like preordained thy yeah exactly. 305 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 4: It's like really describing a set of beliefs and behaviors 306 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 4: that you've picked up along the way in response to 307 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 4: your experiences. Some of those early experiences some of them 308 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 4: might be later in life in other relationships. But it's 309 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 4: basically like, again, all of the data that I've collected 310 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 4: around the types of things that I need to worry 311 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 4: about in relationships, and like my best, like my best 312 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 4: way of resolving that for myself so I've had a 313 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 4: lot of experiences throughout my life collecting data that people 314 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 4: are always gonna leave me, and I'm always the one 315 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 4: who has to try and reach out to them and 316 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 4: you know, make them love me and hold on to them. 317 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 3: Like then I've got a lot to back that up. 318 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 4: And so I have all of these protective strategies that 319 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 4: spring from those experiences. 320 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 3: And that's just what I know. 321 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 4: So the process of I'm learning that and relearning something 322 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 4: else is a bringing awareness to it. 323 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 3: I mean, that's an obvious first step is like I need. 324 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 4: To get curious, and I think what a lot of 325 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 4: people do, and that something that I really emphasize as 326 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 4: a first step is like not being really self critical 327 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 4: about it. It's easy to do to just be like 328 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 4: what is wrong with me? Why do I keep doing this? 329 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 4: Why do I keep ending up here? And like, particularly 330 00:15:57,600 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 4: in those moments of high stress where you do something 331 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 4: crazy and like send off a million text messages and 332 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 4: then go like oops, right, like kind of possessed. And 333 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 4: I think when your nervous systems like going into this 334 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 4: full blown thing of like this is not safe, you 335 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 4: can almost feel like you've been taken over. Yeah, And 336 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 4: then afterwards be like, oh no, like why what is 337 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 4: wrong with me? 338 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: Yeah? I think it's like it's like when people get drunk, 339 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: it's like yeah, just you kind of black out and 340 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: then you come to and you're like that ship. 341 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 3: You're like did know I had that in me? Yeah? 342 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 4: And so like having a level of self compassion around it, 343 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 4: and some people have resistance to that, So like, isn't 344 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 4: that just letting myself off the whole? 345 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 3: I don't want to just be nice to myself. 346 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 4: But it's really it's as simple as being like, Okay, 347 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 4: these are the things I struggle with, like why does 348 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 4: that make sense? Because I promise you it will make sense. Yeah, 349 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 4: if we can connect the dots a bit and go, okay, 350 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 4: well I fear that I'm not good enough, Like where 351 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 4: does that come from? And maybe there's like a whole 352 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 4: string of experiences early in your life that kind of 353 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 4: planted that seed. And so it's like, Okay, I'm just 354 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:07,639 Speaker 4: responding to things like stories that I've been carrying for 355 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 4: a long time, and my behavior probably as much as 356 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 4: I might not, like it makes sense in that. 357 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 1: Given like X Y. Yeah, it's like probably a lot 358 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,920 Speaker 1: of those would be breakups, right, yep, and like breakups, would. 359 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 3: Date ups or like rejections, all sorts of things. 360 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 1: How do you actually heal from a breakup? Because there's 361 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: so many It's like, you know, get under someone, to 362 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 1: get over someone, or watch every season of Sex in 363 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,119 Speaker 1: the City's when I'd never date again, Never date again, celibacy, 364 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 1: you know, how do you actually heal from a breakup? 365 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 4: I literally had a podcast episode two weeks ago titled 366 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 4: how to actually Heal from a breakup? So this is fresh. 367 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 4: So I think that like step one in my mind 368 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 4: is you got to go into the grief, and breakups 369 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:53,880 Speaker 4: are a grieving process, and a lot of people are, 370 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 4: like I think we're collectively pretty scared of grief because 371 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 4: grief feels like a big, swallow, whole kind of emotion, 372 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:02,879 Speaker 4: and we've got this thing of like I can't touch it, 373 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 4: I can't turn towards it. I got to just like 374 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:07,479 Speaker 4: skim over the top of it or just like not 375 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 4: go there. I don't trust it. Yeah, And for some 376 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 4: of us that's just because we don't trust like being 377 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 4: in our emotions. For others, I think it's almost like 378 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 4: to grieve would be to accept that it's over. And 379 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 4: a lot of us don't want to do that. I 380 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 4: think that's like the whole closure piece as well, which 381 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 4: is another part of the healing, is like reframing the 382 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:31,120 Speaker 4: way that you relate to closure and having really realistic 383 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 4: expectations around that, because I think a lot of people go, like, 384 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:36,439 Speaker 4: I can't move on to like a closure, you know, 385 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 4: particularly where the relationship if it was a bit of 386 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 4: a dumbster fyre, particularly towards the end, we have to 387 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,159 Speaker 4: be honest about, like, is the person who left me 388 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:47,120 Speaker 4: in a state of such disarray that I'm hanging out 389 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 4: for closure and totally you know at rock bottom? Is 390 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 4: that person going to have the capacity to suddenly show 391 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:55,719 Speaker 4: up and like have some cogent conversation where they tell me, 392 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:59,359 Speaker 4: you know these really you know, these answers to questions 393 00:18:59,400 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 4: that like. 394 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,120 Speaker 1: One of the things I want to hear, because less 395 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 1: you confuse is probably not. 396 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 4: Not the person who can show up and give you 397 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 4: closure in this like really beautiful, eloquent way where like 398 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 4: you'll both feel satisfied with the answers but also feel 399 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 4: happy to tibo around it and say good bye. 400 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 3: Like that's just not a realistic So. 401 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 1: If they did magically turn around then you're gonna be like, correct, 402 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 1: you probably just got a script from chat. 403 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 3: Correct. 404 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 4: And so I think we've just got to be really 405 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,439 Speaker 4: honest about like how clean are my intentions around the 406 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,880 Speaker 4: closure piece? And can I shift away? You know, this 407 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 4: is another really big piece for anxious people, same as 408 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 4: when they're in relationships, Like you've just got to stop 409 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 4: obsessing about them. 410 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 3: What are they thinking, what are they feeling? Are they 411 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 3: moving on to? 412 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: Like all of them, I think you should block them. 413 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 4: In most cases, I think no contact is the right call. 414 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 4: I realize that can be complicated by like logistical life factors, 415 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,400 Speaker 4: but you yeah, all of that, like living arrangements, co parenting, 416 00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 4: but in most cases, like you really need to allow 417 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 4: your brain the time and space to disentangle from this person. 418 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 4: And just like knowing rationally that you've broken up doesn't 419 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 4: disentangle your attachment system, which says, like they're my partner, 420 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:14,120 Speaker 4: even if the relationship was so dysfunctional, I still, by default, 421 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 4: by instinct, like reach for them, and I expect them 422 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 4: to occupy that space in my life. And so if 423 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 4: I'm still messaging them and like we're trying to play 424 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 4: emotional support person for each other and check in on 425 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:24,639 Speaker 4: each other. 426 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 3: It's just like there's no clean brain. 427 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: You can't coach each other through a brain. 428 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,640 Speaker 4: No, it's just not right because it's too murky. It's 429 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:33,399 Speaker 4: just kicking the can down the road. You're going to 430 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 4: have to have time and space from each other sooner 431 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:39,399 Speaker 4: or later, because it's just like you won't process that 432 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 4: you've broken up if you're still playing that role for 433 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 4: one another. So I think that having clear boundaries around that, 434 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 4: as much as it's like the last thing that you want, 435 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:53,880 Speaker 4: it's probably what you need. And what I always say 436 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:55,360 Speaker 4: to people about no contacts, like how long. 437 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 3: Should it be? 438 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:57,639 Speaker 4: It's been six weeks? Should I reach out? I think 439 00:20:57,640 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 4: if you're still asking that question, it's not being long enough. 440 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 4: Have you counting down the days on the calendar? 441 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:04,679 Speaker 3: Is like, okay, no contact, al Mu's finished, I can 442 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 3: text them again. 443 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 4: It's like you're missing the point, right, Like it's not 444 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:10,479 Speaker 4: just pressing pause so that you can then pick up 445 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 4: where things left off and go back to talking to 446 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 4: them all the time. 447 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 3: The point of that period. 448 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 4: Is that you can like shift focus away from them 449 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:22,160 Speaker 4: and onto yourself and go like, okay, accepting reality. I'm 450 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 4: choosing to accept that the relationship is over, even though 451 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 4: that might not be what I was hoping for, even 452 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,400 Speaker 4: though I might still miss them, Like all of those 453 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 4: things are completely normal, and I think we make a 454 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 4: lot of meaning out of them, Like if I miss 455 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 4: like if it was meant to be, I wouldn't miss them. 456 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 4: It's like, that's just not true. You miss them because 457 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,400 Speaker 4: you're accustomed to them being there. You're accustomed to messaging 458 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 4: them when something funny happens, or when you're frustrated, or 459 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,399 Speaker 4: you like all of the little things you're accustomed to, 460 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 4: like asking them what they want to have for dinner. 461 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 4: Particularly if it was a long term relationship and you 462 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 4: live together or anything like that where your lives are 463 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 4: been really integrated, of course you're going to miss them. 464 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:04,199 Speaker 4: And that doesn't change what was real about the relationship 465 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,639 Speaker 4: not working. And I think we can get really like 466 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 4: rose colored glasses about that in hindsight, because. 467 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 3: The day to day scene, Yeah, the day to day stresses. 468 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:14,879 Speaker 4: Are gone, Like all of the things that were really 469 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,639 Speaker 4: triggering you and that you're fighting about, like those are gone, 470 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 4: and now you're just left with this acknowledgment of the 471 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 4: things that you've had to go of that you now, 472 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 4: like all of the little things that might have kept 473 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 4: you there, those are the things that your attention lands on. 474 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 4: Is like, oh my god, I'm not going to get 475 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 4: to see their family anymore, or like that holiday that 476 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 4: we had been talking about, but that that's not going 477 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 4: to happen either, and like who am I going to 478 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 4: watch shows with? 479 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 3: Or all those things that points are comfortay with? 480 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 4: Correct, who am I going to, like send this meme 481 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:47,159 Speaker 4: to I would have sent it to them, and now 482 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 4: I can't. So it's just like these continual reminders of 483 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 4: the loss, and then we start to make meaning and 484 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 4: go like maybe maybe it wasn't that right. 485 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 1: I think dating is the way to get over a 486 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: relationship like is jump back into the pond if. 487 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:05,479 Speaker 4: You haven't really engaged with like what went wrong and why? 488 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 4: I think there's a really good chance you're signing up 489 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 4: for a pattern repeat with the next person, because like, 490 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 4: why would you know acknowledging that we are the common 491 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:19,640 Speaker 4: denominator in our lives and relationship patterns, why would anything 492 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:21,399 Speaker 4: be different if we've not done the work for it 493 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 4: to be different. And so if we know that we 494 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 4: were like contributing to some unhealthy like if you had 495 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 4: a perfectly healthy relationship and you feel like it ended 496 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 4: for some sort of like non you know whatever. One 497 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 4: of you moved overseas and you couldn't do it something 498 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 4: like that, and it was a lovely breakup. Fine, maybe 499 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:40,640 Speaker 4: you can get back out there when you feel ready, 500 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 4: and that might be sooner rather than later. But if 501 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 4: you've got a lot of stuff and you know you've 502 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 4: got some baggage to unpack, like just going back out 503 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,639 Speaker 4: there is in my mind, like bypassing that again, like 504 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 4: you're going to come up against the same stuff for failure. Yeah, 505 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:56,640 Speaker 4: you're just setting yourself up for more of the same. 506 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 4: It's like, why would you not get more of the 507 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 4: same when you are kind of the same person. Whereas 508 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 4: I think a breakup is a beautiful opportunity to like 509 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 4: hold the mirror up and go, Okay, can I get intentional? 510 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 4: Can I get honest with myself about like what was 511 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 4: my part in that? Like what attracted me to that 512 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 4: dynamic and kept me there for as long as I 513 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 4: stayed a lot of people with anxious attachment will just 514 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 4: like hold on for dear life so far past the 515 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 4: point of dysfunction. 516 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 3: You know, It's just like it's not that bad. 517 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 4: But like, even if it's so, it's so like all 518 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 4: you do is fight, it's like, yeah, but we love 519 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 4: each other. Yeah, you know, like those sorts of like 520 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,199 Speaker 4: the feelings are such a big piece, and you know, 521 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 4: anyone looking from the outside of'd be like. 522 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 3: Writing's on the wall. 523 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 4: But like we have to get honest out, like, Okay, 524 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 4: what is it within me that doesn't you know someone 525 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 4: I have so many examples because I work with so 526 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 4: many people on this. It's like, you know, they said 527 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 4: that they weren't really sure they loved me after three years, 528 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,640 Speaker 4: and I stayed for another two years after that or something, 529 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 4: just like what is it within me that doesn't register 530 00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 4: that as a problem. 531 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: Like the reason I'm laughing is because it's me, me 532 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 1: think of like a very one particular past relationship. And 533 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 1: that's why sounds also rolling her eyes, and it just 534 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,679 Speaker 1: I find it really comforting actually to talk about, because 535 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: I want to point out to anyone listening to this 536 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: if they're being like, fuck, that's me. It truly does 537 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: come full circle. And when you do work on yourself 538 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 1: and you do kind of take a step back and 539 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,120 Speaker 1: be like that wasn't what I wanted, Like why did 540 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:24,159 Speaker 1: I think that was healthy? 541 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 5: Why did I think that would love that it was 542 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 5: this really big thing all the time, Like I actually 543 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 5: think relationships should potentially be a little bit boring sometimes 544 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 5: and routine is okay, and like getting to that place 545 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 5: of I definitely still think I have Like I wouldn't 546 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 5: say I'm like one hundred percent secure, but like there's 547 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 5: I've definitely been able to get to that place of 548 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 5: secure attachments. 549 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:51,880 Speaker 3: Sure you can have it, thanks. 550 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,400 Speaker 1: Because you know you do that work and you actually 551 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 1: make an effort to find someone that isn't the exact 552 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 1: opposite of what you need and can kind of meet 553 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,639 Speaker 1: you halfway with things. So that's why I'm laughing, because 554 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:06,440 Speaker 1: I don't think it's funny. Don't want anyone to hear No, 555 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:12,199 Speaker 1: I mean, like you bitch, No, it's just like me. 556 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 3: As well, absolute shit of a relationship. And like, thank 557 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 3: god I did, because had I not. 558 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 4: Push myself to the brink, then it like I wouldn't 559 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 4: be I wouldn't be doing this work in a way 560 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 4: that I am, and I'd certainly like I wouldn't be 561 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 4: able to speak to it and teach you about it 562 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 4: in the way that I do, because like I fully 563 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 4: understand it. 564 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,360 Speaker 3: People always say like it's like you're inside my head. 565 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,360 Speaker 3: I'm like, no, just in my mind. Yeah, I've been there. 566 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 3: I gets him and experience. 567 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: There's a book called The Mountain is You, and it 568 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: literally says that you have to hit rock bottom before 569 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: you're ready to change your life. And I feel like 570 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: that's how it was, like. I don't know if that's 571 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: with every relationship, but that's what it was like with 572 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,159 Speaker 1: my breakups. Like I literally felt like I hit rock 573 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 1: bottom and then I was like, Okay, keep doing it again. Yeah, 574 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 1: and then you actually make the work. I would love 575 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,439 Speaker 1: to know. Do you ever think jealousy is healthy in 576 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: a relationship? 577 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,199 Speaker 4: Yeah, Jealousy is a really funny one because I think 578 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,680 Speaker 4: as a society where like, jealousy is bad, jealousy is 579 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 4: a bad emotion and we should be kind of ashamed 580 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:08,679 Speaker 4: of it or like it's associated with being crazy. But 581 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 4: jealousy is a very very natural human emotion, Like evolutionary 582 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 4: psychologists will talk about jealousy as a mate guarding strategy. 583 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:20,120 Speaker 4: It's like, if I perceive a threat to my relationship 584 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,439 Speaker 4: my mate, then jealousy arises as this emotion in me, 585 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 4: that might come with like anger and protectiveness. 586 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 3: That's like essentially batting away threats to my relationship. 587 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 4: And that's kind of makes sense, right, We're like that 588 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 4: that's mine, yeah, back, yeah, exactly, And so there's nothing like, 589 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 4: it's completely normal universal as an emotion. I don't think 590 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,399 Speaker 4: there's anything inherently wrong with it. I think that for 591 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 4: a lot of people, again, more anxiously attach people typically 592 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 4: perceive threats like everywhere to their relationship. And I to me, like, 593 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 4: whenever I talk about jealousy, particularly in the context of 594 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 4: anxious attachment, it's a self worth issue as far as 595 00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 4: I'm concerned, assuming there aren't actual things going on that 596 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 4: you know, that's okay. Yeah, because like sometimes people will 597 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 4: be like, oh, I'm just so jealous and paranoid. Then 598 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:07,439 Speaker 4: they tell me what's going on, I'm like, no, your 599 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:13,639 Speaker 4: partner's cheating on you. Yeah, you're having a completely natural 600 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,359 Speaker 4: and normal response to the situation, which is not okay. 601 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 3: But absent those situations, like if you just know that. 602 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 4: You've always been really jealous, you've always really struggled with that, 603 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 4: then I think it is oftentimes because we don't trust 604 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 4: in our own value and we don't trust that someone 605 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,360 Speaker 4: could really want and choose us. Then it's like, oh, 606 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,880 Speaker 4: everything's a threat. Everyone's a threat. I compare myself really 607 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 4: chronically because like I just think the second my partner 608 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 4: gets an opportunity, they're going to leave me. So I 609 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 4: think in those sorts of circumstances, I don't think it's 610 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 4: healthy or helpful, but I think that's a self worth problem. 611 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: Managing a partner who's really jealous. 612 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 4: As with all of these things, you've got to find 613 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 4: a way. And like being a secure partner I think 614 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 4: is being really validating but also having boundaries. So it 615 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 4: might sound like I know that this is really hard 616 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 4: for you, and like I can see that you're really 617 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 4: like carrying a lot of stress around this. I want 618 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 4: to understand that, and I want you to help me 619 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 4: understand that. But at the same time, from my perspective, 620 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 4: it's not clear to me that like anything I'm doing 621 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 4: is like warranting this fear in you. So like I 622 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 4: obviously want to help you to feel safe, but at 623 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 4: the same time, it's hard for me to feel like 624 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 4: you don't trust me or something like that. 625 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: Slave write that down everyone, Yeah, that was good. 626 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 4: So I think it's it's finding that balance of like 627 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 4: validating them but also holding firm, not like overstepping into 628 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 4: like let me fix it for you, because like I 629 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 4: have to take care of your movie. 630 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: Okay, it's a natural reaction. I've been like, no, baby, 631 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 1: I'll come home right now. Well, he looks through my 632 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: phone or want to accommodate, and potentially that's feeding the beast. 633 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 3: Yes. 634 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think that you know a lot of 635 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 4: people who struggle with trust and they're like, oh, I 636 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 4: went through their phone and did all other things. It's like, 637 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 4: and now I trust them because I've like gone through 638 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 4: everything I didn't find it. 639 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, it's not trust. Trust. 640 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 4: It only is because you've like you know, been running 641 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 4: a surveillance operation. Is not trust. 642 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 3: His trust involves like a level of risk and vulnerability. 643 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 4: It's not like I have full transparency over everything and 644 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,959 Speaker 4: I have verified that there are no breaches, therefore I 645 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 4: trust them. 646 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, you need to have faith in your 647 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 2: partner as well as like evidence, and they're showing that 648 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 2: they actually care about you. But for somebody who is 649 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 2: taking stock in their relationship or maybe reflecting on a 650 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 2: previous relationship or looking for a new partner. What's the 651 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 2: checklist for a healthy relationship? 652 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, good question. So I think that you trust emotional safety, respect. 653 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 4: These are like really cornerstone pillars of a relationship that 654 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 4: it's kind of hard to build something healthy without that. 655 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 4: So what does that look like? I think being able 656 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 4: to bring things to each other and have conversations. They 657 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 4: might be messy in perfect conversations, like it's not like 658 00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 4: you have to have this really lovely textbook relatedation chip 659 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 4: you know, therapy kind of conversation every time when no 660 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 4: one gets triggered, like all that stuff is going to 661 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 4: come up. But being able to more or less have 662 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 4: a safe container where you can talk about hard things 663 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 4: and you don't feel like, oh, I'm not allowed to 664 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 4: tell them that, or I've been really anxious about this, 665 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 4: but I can't bring it to them because they will 666 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 4: get really defensive and blow up and storm out, and 667 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,480 Speaker 4: then I'll be left feeling awful. I think like being 668 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 4: able to have like safe conversations and even if it 669 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 4: goes a bit pair shaped, like being able to circle 670 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 4: back and repair and be like that got out of hand, 671 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 4: like can we talk about it, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Great, 672 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 4: Like understanding, you know, being able to own your stuff, 673 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 4: like I got a bit triggered, or like I was snappy. 674 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I'm piot, like you know, just being able 675 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 3: to like have hard things that you work through. Well. 676 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 4: I think that's probably the most important thing, because relationships 677 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 4: are hard and messy, and like you will come up 678 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 4: against hard stuff. So your ability to actually stay in 679 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 4: that and still be like kind of loving and respectful 680 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 4: towards each other, if not in the moment, then like 681 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 4: coming back later and coming back together, I think that's 682 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 4: really important. I think a level of commitment in the 683 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 4: sense of like not sensing that one person's got their 684 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 4: foot out the door, because it's really hard to build 685 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 4: if you feel like one person or both of you 686 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 4: has one foot out the door, it just brings this 687 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 4: like frigility to the relationship that then makes having, for example, 688 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 4: hard conversations or safe conflict really hard because you feel 689 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 4: like one person's potentially always going to be like you 690 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 4: know what, this is too. 691 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 3: Hard, this is done, don't It's just like yeah. 692 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, And that's just like such a trump card to 693 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 4: be holding. That creates a power and balance it's really 694 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,719 Speaker 4: hard to overcome, like it's the person who is always 695 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 4: like pulling away or withholding or saying like maybe this 696 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 4: is just too hard. That's the person who will always 697 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 4: have power. Yeah, And that's like really hard to build 698 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 4: a healthy, secure relationship where you both feel good about it, 699 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 4: where one person's always holding the power. 700 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: And that's kind of those situations where someone feels like, oh, 701 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 1: I love you more than you love me. 702 00:32:57,880 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 3: Yeah. 703 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm always the one reaching, and like because of that, 704 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 4: I have to get really small because I feel like 705 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 4: you're already making concessions just by being here, and that 706 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 4: like you could go at any moment because I'm kind 707 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 4: of holding this whole thing together. Like, it's really hard 708 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 4: to build with that kind of energy where you're like 709 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 4: convincing and persuading someone to be with you. 710 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 1: Why do you think people and some of us are 711 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: attracted to that like emotional unavailability in a partner? 712 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 2: Yeah? 713 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 1: Is it the anxious attachment style? 714 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 4: Yeah? 715 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 3: I think so. There's a few pieces. 716 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 4: I think if you are if you don't believe that 717 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 4: you deserve something better, then that can be a really 718 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 4: safe place to sit of just like reaching for the 719 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 4: person who's unavailable, because that like keeps your worldview intact. 720 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 4: If you think that like relationships always like that, if 721 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 4: you're really accustomed to trying to prove yourself for trying 722 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 4: to win someone over or like rescue someone, you can 723 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 4: have this story. And I think it's really like romanticized 724 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 4: in a lot of like pop culture amusing and everything 725 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 4: of like the person who was like really tortured and 726 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 4: like I saved them with my love. And for those 727 00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 4: of us who like get a lot of our sense 728 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 4: of worth or value from trying to save people, that's 729 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 4: really seductive. It's just like, oh, they are kind of 730 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,359 Speaker 4: like dark and mysterious or unavailable, or they have all 731 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 4: this baggage, Like maybe I'll be the one to transform 732 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,319 Speaker 4: them from unavailable to available and that gives me a 733 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 4: lot of like sense of value, and like I get 734 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 4: a lot out of that. I think for any of 735 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 4: these you have to ask what am I getting out 736 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,319 Speaker 4: of it in these pursuits? Is it the hope that 737 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,799 Speaker 4: I can turn it around? And what that will mean 738 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:33,359 Speaker 4: about me? Some other pieces on the emotional unavailability. Some 739 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 4: of us are much more comfortable in like inconsistent, unpredictable dynamics, 740 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 4: like that's what causes an anxious attachment style in like 741 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 4: to emerge in the first place in family systems where 742 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 4: like love, you know, love is there and connection is there, 743 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 4: but it's unreliable in some way. So like sometimes everyone's 744 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:53,799 Speaker 4: happy and we're all connected and that feels good, but 745 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,800 Speaker 4: then suddenly something will change and everything's not good and 746 00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 4: I don't really understand why or what happened, and so 747 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 4: I become really yper vigilant like all of the conditions 748 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 4: that's around, like what's going on and how's everyone feeling? 749 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 4: And can I read the room all the time to anticipate, 750 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 4: like a mom. 751 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 3: And dad fighting is something going on that I don't 752 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:10,800 Speaker 3: fully understand. 753 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 4: And so when we carry that into adult relationships, like 754 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,280 Speaker 4: we're really primed to not register that as a problem 755 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 4: for starters, that things can change all the time, but 756 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 4: like all of our protective strategies that we've gotten really 757 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 4: good at fit perfectly in that environment with an unavailable partner, 758 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 4: like someone who's there and it's all really great, and 759 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 4: then they start to pull away, and rather than being like, oh, 760 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:33,400 Speaker 4: like that's a bit shit, I'm not really interested in 761 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 4: someone who leaves me guessing whether they like me, we 762 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,759 Speaker 4: go like, ah, how interesting they're pulling away. Is it 763 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 4: something that I said. I'll go back through the text messages. 764 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 4: Maybe I'll send a little message and see, like try 765 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,400 Speaker 4: and engauge all of the like. We just don't register 766 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,359 Speaker 4: that as a problem. We go like, I know what 767 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 4: to do with inconsistent and unpredictable. I've been training my 768 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:50,799 Speaker 4: whole life for this. 769 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, you've got a pattern. 770 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,759 Speaker 4: Yeah it's very comfortable, and so we can say, like, 771 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 4: why does this keep happening to me? But it's much 772 00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 4: more honest to go like, what part of me is 773 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,400 Speaker 4: more comfortable here than I would be in a safe, 774 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:06,880 Speaker 4: healthy relationship, because it is like healthy relationships can be 775 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 4: way more vulnerable because you don't really have anyone to 776 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 4: blame or anywhere to hide. It's like, oh, hang on, 777 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:14,440 Speaker 4: all of a sudden, I can't point my finger at 778 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 4: like the unavailable person who's always pulling away. It's like 779 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 4: I'm actually brought into contact with my own stuff and 780 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,239 Speaker 4: the places where I might fear vulnerability and all of 781 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 4: those things. So there's a few different reasons for those 782 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:26,760 Speaker 4: are some of the big ones. 783 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 2: That's interesting as well, because in those sorts of relationships, 784 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 2: maybe there's not as much like passion or excitement as well, 785 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 2: which people find very appealing. And we do get messages 786 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:39,759 Speaker 2: from chicks all the time who are in long term 787 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 2: relationships and they have questions about their relationships because maybe 788 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 2: they feel a bit different to what they were in 789 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 2: the beginning, maybe they feel less exciting. So what are 790 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 2: five things that we need to normalize in long term relationships? 791 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, so I think that's really normal. Again, Like I 792 00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 4: think pop culture has probably done us a dirty on 793 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 4: that and like painted a picture that it should always 794 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 4: be really like amazing and exciting and fireworks and like passion, 795 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:08,680 Speaker 4: and it's just not realistic. 796 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 3: It's only very recently that. 797 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 4: We've ever had that expectation of relationships, and like social 798 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,120 Speaker 4: media presents a very one side of you, Like you're 799 00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:21,160 Speaker 4: only getting like these super cute, like ridiculously attractive couples 800 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,319 Speaker 4: like holding hands and wading around Europe and that's just 801 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:27,919 Speaker 4: in a you know, twelve second reel set to nice music, 802 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 4: and I'm like, oh mama, my relationship sucks, Like what. 803 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 3: Do I mean? 804 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:32,759 Speaker 1: It's not a one thousand year old vampire and I 805 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:34,920 Speaker 1: already had sex with his brother. He can't pick me 806 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 1: up with one hand? Yeah, what s that's crazy. 807 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,960 Speaker 4: Right, And so we do have this, like you know, 808 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 4: and I think it's kind of ties into like our 809 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 4: broader attention span and culture around dating that has presented 810 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:50,400 Speaker 4: like limitless options. 811 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, grass is always greener, correct, And. 812 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 4: So I think that normalizing that it's not always going 813 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:01,440 Speaker 4: to be super exciting, normalizing like companions as well as 814 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:06,440 Speaker 4: hopefully some excitement, but like the companionship and like steadiness, 815 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:10,320 Speaker 4: those are really good qualities to aim for. It doesn't 816 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,239 Speaker 4: have to be like super riveting all the time. I 817 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 4: think normalizing getting your needs met from not just your relationship, 818 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 4: I think we can. 819 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:18,880 Speaker 3: Get really lazy. 820 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 4: It's really easy to just get comfy in relationships and 821 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,359 Speaker 4: it's like, yeah, they're my default person so or just 822 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 4: like kind of rely on them to be my everything, 823 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:30,280 Speaker 4: my person who I do everything with and my therapists 824 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,400 Speaker 4: am my this, am I that. And there's a lot 825 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 4: of pressure on a relationship. And I think that the 826 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 4: more we can diversify like where we get those needs met, 827 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 4: the less likely we are to be disappointed or frustrated 828 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,040 Speaker 4: with someone for like not giving us everything we need 829 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 4: all the time. 830 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:48,400 Speaker 1: Outside of relationships like romantic relationships, how can your attachment 831 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:49,920 Speaker 1: styles affect your life. 832 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, so it's interesting, like attachment theory and attachment styles 833 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 4: is really about like infant care givet and then romantic relationships. 834 00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 4: But if we take that broader view of like the 835 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 4: things that I've learned to be afraid of or insecure 836 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 4: about when it comes to relationships and the ways that 837 00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:06,719 Speaker 4: I've learned to kind of habitually respond to that, we 838 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:08,239 Speaker 4: can see that like that's going to show up in 839 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,319 Speaker 4: other places, like if my anxious attachment has turned me 840 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:15,400 Speaker 4: into like a full blown people pleaser, caretaker, rescuer, Like 841 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:18,120 Speaker 4: that's not siloed, and there's a good chance that I 842 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:20,879 Speaker 4: might see that pop up in my friendships, like insecurities 843 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 4: around I like people more than they like me, you know, 844 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 4: I don't belong or any of those. 845 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:27,440 Speaker 3: Stories we might have. 846 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,200 Speaker 4: Like you can certainly see that in friendships that like 847 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:32,319 Speaker 4: one person might do all of the heavy lifting and 848 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 4: all of the reaching out and like overfunctioning and all 849 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:38,520 Speaker 4: of the planning and like that that's this coming from 850 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 4: this place of insecurity that like I have to make 851 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 4: people like me or. 852 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:42,839 Speaker 3: Earn my place there. 853 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,839 Speaker 4: But also you can just find in relationships like when 854 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,600 Speaker 4: one person continually overfunctions, it kind of enables the underfunctioning 855 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,200 Speaker 4: of the other person because it's like I don't need 856 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 4: to put in effort because you're doing all the efforting, So. 857 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:56,399 Speaker 1: Should the efforting friends take a step back? 858 00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's usually my advice in relations like romantic relationships 859 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,440 Speaker 4: and any other It's like, if I know that I'm 860 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 4: like stepping over, I always picture a tennis court. I 861 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 4: don't know if that's a helpful visual for anyone, but 862 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:08,080 Speaker 4: like if I'm constantly. 863 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 3: Going over to your side of the court and like I'm. 864 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:10,920 Speaker 4: Hitting the ball to you and then I'm running back 865 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 4: around and like I'm doing all this stuff, like am 866 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,880 Speaker 4: I overstepping past like the midline here? So can I 867 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,000 Speaker 4: stay on my side of the court and like be 868 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,279 Speaker 4: a bit less overfunctioning? And like balls might drop, but 869 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:23,800 Speaker 4: people have to experience consequences to learn. 870 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 1: And I do have a bit of a like a 871 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 1: sideball question for you. But can attachment styles affect the 872 00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:29,760 Speaker 1: way that we spend money? 873 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:30,680 Speaker 2: Yeah? 874 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,759 Speaker 4: So again my analogy, like it's it's outside of the 875 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:39,480 Speaker 4: skype of attachment theory, and like very clear patterns around that, 876 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:43,319 Speaker 4: like that you could be anxious and very excessively preoccupied 877 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 4: with money. Maybe don't trust money, maybe check your accounts 878 00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 4: like a bit maniacally, Like you know, this sense of 879 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:51,799 Speaker 4: it could go away at any moment, and so I 880 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 4: have to try and control it. I think you could 881 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:56,879 Speaker 4: see that kind of pattern someone who's avoidant around money. 882 00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,560 Speaker 4: I think that's definitely a thing, like I can't even 883 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:01,160 Speaker 4: look at it. Yeah, you don't want to look at 884 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,400 Speaker 4: my accounts, I mean complete denial. I keep racking up 885 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,560 Speaker 4: debt and it's like so unsustainable, but I'm just going 886 00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,640 Speaker 4: to pretend it's not there because it freezes me up 887 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,839 Speaker 4: and I feel so overwhelmed. So while it's like it's 888 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,400 Speaker 4: not attachment theory, I think by analogy you can certainly 889 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:19,439 Speaker 4: see there are similar shapes taking place when it comes 890 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:20,360 Speaker 4: to something like money. 891 00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,000 Speaker 2: Have you shared a quote recently on your Instagram that 892 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:26,359 Speaker 2: resonated with a lot of people and at the end 893 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:28,360 Speaker 2: you sort of summarized it by saying, the things we 894 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 2: fear in relationships are so often reflections of the relationships 895 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:35,080 Speaker 2: we have with ourselves. And yeah, like I said, I 896 00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:37,360 Speaker 2: saw that resonated with so many people, But can. 897 00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:38,799 Speaker 1: You elaborate on that. 898 00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 2: I feel like it's a nice little way to cap 899 00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:41,160 Speaker 2: the episode. 900 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,799 Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, So that post was about, you know, like 901 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:47,640 Speaker 4: fear of abandonment, fear of rejection, all of these things 902 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,879 Speaker 4: that we focus on in a relational sphere. And I've 903 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,120 Speaker 4: truly never worked with someone who's like terrified of abandonment, 904 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:57,400 Speaker 4: who doesn't always abandon themselves, or like terrified of rejection, 905 00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:00,719 Speaker 4: who isn't highly self critical. And it's almost like we 906 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:05,520 Speaker 4: move through the world seeking confirmation of the painful burdens 907 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,600 Speaker 4: that we're carrying in our own inner relationship. And so 908 00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:10,919 Speaker 4: that's really in my mind where the work has to begin. 909 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,400 Speaker 4: Like I think there's a lot of scope for healing 910 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,480 Speaker 4: in a relationship, but in my mind, it helps a 911 00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,520 Speaker 4: lot if you've done some of that like foundational work 912 00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:23,439 Speaker 4: within yourself, because it's hard to have a healing relationship 913 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,719 Speaker 4: if you have rock bottom self worth, right, Because if 914 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,399 Speaker 4: you have rock body and self true, it's like there's 915 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:31,280 Speaker 4: just a really good chance if you have rock bottom 916 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,120 Speaker 4: self worth, you're going to go to a relationship with 917 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:35,600 Speaker 4: someone who's emotionally unavailable and try to make them love 918 00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:38,080 Speaker 4: you and do all of the things. Like that's where 919 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:40,800 Speaker 4: your patterns kind of come up because they're trying to 920 00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:42,920 Speaker 4: compensate something. It's trying to keep you safe from this 921 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,439 Speaker 4: foundation of like, I don't believe that anyone's ever gonna 922 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,359 Speaker 4: love me, so like, I think that you can have 923 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:52,040 Speaker 4: really beautiful, healing relationships, but it requires that you've done 924 00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:54,480 Speaker 4: a bit of leg work. And I don't think that 925 00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:56,480 Speaker 4: means like you have to love yourself first. I think 926 00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:01,400 Speaker 4: that's simplistic and not true. I think having like a 927 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:05,360 Speaker 4: foundation of self esteem helps a lot in then allowing 928 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:07,480 Speaker 4: you to build the kind of relationship that you can 929 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:10,359 Speaker 4: grow in, because if you don't have that, then you're 930 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:12,440 Speaker 4: probably gonna end up in a lot of those insecure 931 00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:14,759 Speaker 4: patterns that collect more evidence for the old way and 932 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:16,759 Speaker 4: collect more you know, you end up pushing someone away, 933 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:18,560 Speaker 4: and then you go, see, everyone always leaves me because 934 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,840 Speaker 4: I'm too much, I'm too needy, I'm too sensitive, I'm 935 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:25,280 Speaker 4: like too clingy. But like you've kind of re enacted 936 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,480 Speaker 4: this same scenario and then been like see proof. 937 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much that I feel like I 938 00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:34,520 Speaker 1: could chat to you for hours. This is also interesting, 939 00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:39,040 Speaker 1: but I'm sure this episode has helped so many chicks listening. 940 00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:41,759 Speaker 1: For those who want to hear more where can they 941 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:42,239 Speaker 1: find you? 942 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's probably the best place. Is my podcast on attachment, 943 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:48,000 Speaker 4: over two hundred episodes, so you can go binge through those. 944 00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:54,040 Speaker 4: I'm also on Instagram at Stephanie Underscool, Underscore rig stephanierig 945 00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:54,600 Speaker 4: dot com. 946 00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,480 Speaker 3: But yeah, start with the podcast. That's a good intro, amazing. 947 00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:00,680 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us, much for having me. 948 00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:02,600 Speaker 3: It was our pleasure, my pleasure. 949 00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:05,120 Speaker 2: And thanks to m I k Made for making today's 950 00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:07,360 Speaker 2: episode happen and two chicks for having us in the 951 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:07,880 Speaker 2: ear holes. 952 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:09,080 Speaker 3: We love to be here. 953 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:16,400 Speaker 1: Bye chick, Bye,