WEBVTT - How to talk about vaccine side effects

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<v Speaker 1>From Schwartz Media. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven Am.

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<v Speaker 1>There's a group of people who, during our most recent

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<v Speaker 1>public health crisis, felt completely abandoned, those who suffered vaccine injuries.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a rare event, but it happens. And during the pandemic,

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<v Speaker 1>those that had happened to say they were deserted by

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<v Speaker 1>their friends, health services and ultimately the government, who they

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<v Speaker 1>say failed to deliver on its promised compensation scheme. And

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<v Speaker 1>when a system like that fails, a vacuum is left

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<v Speaker 1>which can be filled by misinformation and conspiracy. Today, reporter

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<v Speaker 1>at the ABC's background briefing Madison Conorton on the shortcomings

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<v Speaker 1>of the COVID vaccination compensation scheme and what it means

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<v Speaker 1>for public trust. It's Thursday, November twenty one. Madison. Hello,

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<v Speaker 1>it's great to have you on the show.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, review.

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<v Speaker 1>So we're talking about people who got vaccinated for COVID nineteen,

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<v Speaker 1>as we were all asked to do during the pandemic,

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<v Speaker 1>but for these people, something went wrong after they did that.

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<v Speaker 1>So can you tell me more about the people that

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<v Speaker 1>you spoke to it and what they say happened.

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<v Speaker 2>So a lot of.

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<v Speaker 3>Our reporting focuses on This woman named Michelle Michelle Fonder.

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<v Speaker 3>She's actually really sought after a music photographer, so she's

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<v Speaker 3>worked with Australian musicians like Rule and Amy shark Ab

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<v Speaker 3>original traveled the world shot magazine covers, album covers, and

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<v Speaker 3>she described herself to us as someone who'd never had

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<v Speaker 3>issues before with vaccines.

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<v Speaker 4>I've taken every vaccine that has ever existed that we

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<v Speaker 4>were able to take up until this point, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>like it's I've traveled to different places where you've had

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<v Speaker 4>to take stuff.

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<v Speaker 3>But she was pretty upfront that she had some questions

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<v Speaker 3>around the COVID vaccines, particularly because I'm sure you remember

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<v Speaker 3>the news that there was like this blood clotting issue

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<v Speaker 3>that was coming up with the Astrozeneca vaccine.

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<v Speaker 2>There is more information tonight about the Oxford Astrozenica vaccine

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<v Speaker 2>and therese reports about rare cases of blood clots the

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<v Speaker 2>eused drug regulator.

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<v Speaker 3>So she said that that was like in her mind

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<v Speaker 3>when she was deciding on getting vaccinated, and I remember.

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<v Speaker 4>Being relieved that we were eligible for PISA at the time.

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<v Speaker 3>She ended up getting the PHISA vaccine, which most Australians did,

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<v Speaker 3>and she told us that a few days after that

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<v Speaker 3>she started experiencing some heart symptoms when she was lying

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<v Speaker 3>in bed, pretty intense chest pains as well, and she

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<v Speaker 3>said she contacted a friend of hers who was a nurse,

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<v Speaker 3>and the nurse was like, you know, go to hospital.

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<v Speaker 2>They'll check you out and let you know if anything's wrong.

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<v Speaker 3>They ran some tests and nothing you know, concerning was

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<v Speaker 3>popping up, and so she was sent home. But the

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<v Speaker 3>episodes just kept happening. You know, she couldn't even walk

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<v Speaker 3>upstairs without the heart rate spiking, so it was really

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<v Speaker 3>impacting her life. She went back to hospital again, nothing

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<v Speaker 3>was showing up that was of concern, and then after

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<v Speaker 3>she got her second dose of the fire's A vaccine,

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<v Speaker 3>this pattern sort of happened again and then all of.

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<v Speaker 4>A sudden, I don't know where, heart rate spike, just

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<v Speaker 4>this crippling chest pain.

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<v Speaker 3>And that's when she told us she started to think

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<v Speaker 3>that this might be linked to the vaccine, and so

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<v Speaker 3>the third time she went to hospital, she told hospital

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<v Speaker 3>staff that that was her suspicion.

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<v Speaker 2>She was sort of pulled into a side room by a.

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<v Speaker 3>Nurse who told her that she should seek therapy for

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<v Speaker 3>her anxiety.

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<v Speaker 2>And that was pretty shocking for Michelle.

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<v Speaker 3>She said she felt like she'd shown up to hospital

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<v Speaker 3>trying to get help for these symptoms that were really

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<v Speaker 3>scaring her, and she was just being told like, it's

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<v Speaker 3>in your head.

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<v Speaker 4>I just felt like, at my lowest, most vulnerable point

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<v Speaker 4>of my life, when I felt like I was going

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<v Speaker 4>to die, this woman is telling me I'm crazy. Like

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<v Speaker 4>I can't expressed you what that feels like. So I

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<v Speaker 4>just got up and left and I just remember walking

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<v Speaker 4>out into the street hysterically crying, going, I don't know

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<v Speaker 4>what to do.

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<v Speaker 1>Where did she turn to next?

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<v Speaker 3>So, I mean, Michelle did what a lot of people

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<v Speaker 3>do when it comes to health questions these days. She

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<v Speaker 3>went online, and she kind of described going down the

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<v Speaker 3>rabbit hole to us of read it to something on Twitter,

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<v Speaker 3>to Facebook groups, finding other people who had quite similar

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<v Speaker 3>stories to her. And when she was on these groups,

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<v Speaker 3>when she was looking online, there was also just so

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<v Speaker 3>much conspiracy theory content, and you know, there was anti

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<v Speaker 3>vaccine content, and Michelle said that she really had to

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<v Speaker 3>make a choice not to engage with that stuff, not

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<v Speaker 3>to get sort of sucked in. The Other thing that

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<v Speaker 3>was really interesting about what happened to Michelle is that

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<v Speaker 3>she had a pretty big online following, and she started

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<v Speaker 3>talking about what she was experiencing, and she said that

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<v Speaker 3>the reaction to that was kind of totally unexpected.

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<v Speaker 5>People that are like really really pro vaccine would be

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<v Speaker 5>like you are lying, where's your proof, or just like

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<v Speaker 5>you're just a shill for the anti vaxes.

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<v Speaker 2>At the same time, though, she was like, I was

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<v Speaker 2>also copying it from anti vaxeres.

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<v Speaker 1>And so did Michelle manage to get a diagnosis in

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<v Speaker 1>the end, and was her condition connected to the vaccine

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<v Speaker 1>that she received?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, So eventually she got in to see a cardiologist

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<v Speaker 3>who determined that her condition was in line with what

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<v Speaker 3>we're seeing with vaccine induced pericarditis. And so perricarditis is

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<v Speaker 3>an inflammation of the part and it's a really well

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<v Speaker 3>established side effect of mRNA COVID vaccine. So it's not

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<v Speaker 3>a controversial diagnosis, but it's very.

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<v Speaker 1>Rare, okay, And so when we're talking about this group

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<v Speaker 1>of people that Michelle is one of people who suffered

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<v Speaker 1>a vaccine injury during COVID, how many people are we

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<v Speaker 1>talking about here and how serious can the consequences be?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, So the big picture is like when we say rare,

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<v Speaker 3>we do mean rare. Only sixteen people in Australia died

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<v Speaker 3>from a COVID vaccine out of more than sixty eight

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<v Speaker 3>million doses that were delivered, so again rare. Katie Lee's

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<v Speaker 3>was actually one of these sixteen people. So we actually

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<v Speaker 3>spoke to Katie's parents, Penny and e In, and Katie's

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<v Speaker 3>parents actually have a letter from New South Wales Health

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<v Speaker 3>that confirms that she died from the rare clotting disorder

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<v Speaker 3>that was caused by her ASTROZENKA vaccine. And I think

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<v Speaker 3>the thing that was quite surprising about their story was

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<v Speaker 3>the reaction that they got from people when speaking about

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<v Speaker 3>what had happened to Katie.

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<v Speaker 6>Katie loved performance. Independent theater was a very big part

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<v Speaker 6>of her life. The thing that gave her energy and

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<v Speaker 6>a smile on her face was performing.

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<v Speaker 3>Penny told us about the fact that they set up

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<v Speaker 3>this fellowship in Katie's memory that was to help other

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<v Speaker 3>young women who loved theater. But the local council that

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<v Speaker 3>was helping with some of the funding for the fellowship

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<v Speaker 3>pushed back really hard on including Katie's cause of death

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<v Speaker 3>on the website.

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<v Speaker 6>They said, because we're a pro vaccine organization, we don't

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<v Speaker 6>want you to to actually put that Katie died from

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<v Speaker 6>the AstraZeneca vaccine.

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<v Speaker 2>Which Penny found really hard to hear.

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<v Speaker 3>It sort of made her feel like she was being

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<v Speaker 3>cast as an anti vaxxer just for talking about what

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<v Speaker 3>had happened to her daughter. And they applied through the

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<v Speaker 3>compensation scheme that the government had set up for COVID

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<v Speaker 3>nineteen vaccines, and through that scheme they were awarded seventy

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<v Speaker 3>thousand dollars for Katie's death, and Penny told us that

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<v Speaker 3>that figure was really galling for them, and she felt

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<v Speaker 3>like it just reflected that the government had absolutely no

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<v Speaker 3>understanding of the impact that Katie's death had on their family.

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<v Speaker 6>That was the most insulting thing that was very hard

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<v Speaker 6>to accept. We felt really really angry, really let down

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<v Speaker 6>and deserted.

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<v Speaker 1>After the break, how Australia's vaccine compensation scheme fell short

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<v Speaker 1>of its promises, Madison, I want to talk more about

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<v Speaker 1>the COVID nineteen vaccine compensation scheme. What was promised and

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<v Speaker 1>how does that compare in terms of what played out

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<v Speaker 1>and what was actually offered in the end.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, So this compensation scheme is really interesting. Was set

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<v Speaker 3>up by the federal government for the COVID vaccines during

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<v Speaker 3>the pandemic, and it's actually the first time Australia has

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<v Speaker 3>ever had a compensation scheme like this for vaccines, despite

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<v Speaker 3>the fact that experts have been asking for one since

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<v Speaker 3>the nineteen eighties. Is what we were told. But when

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<v Speaker 3>we were doing these interviews with people, we found that

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of people were not eligible for the scheme.

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<v Speaker 3>So it looks like about eight percent of claims have

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<v Speaker 3>been approved at this point. I mean, take Michelle, right,

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<v Speaker 3>So a cardiologist determined that what she was likely dealing

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<v Speaker 3>with was vaccine induced pericarditist, so that's one of the

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<v Speaker 3>recognized conditions you can apply to the scheme under. But

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<v Speaker 3>when Michelle went to look online and see if she

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<v Speaker 3>was eligible, she found out that she couldn't apply because

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<v Speaker 3>she'd never been hospitalized.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, but she'd gone to hospital, they just hadn't admitted her.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so she'd gone to hospital three times, she showed

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<v Speaker 3>up to emergency, but she'd never been admitted to hospital

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<v Speaker 3>and therefore she's not eligible. The other eligibility element for

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<v Speaker 3>the compensation scheme is much more controversial. There are ten

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<v Speaker 3>conditions that are eligible under the scheme. People that are

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<v Speaker 3>experiencing other things are not eligible, so sometimes these are

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<v Speaker 3>referred to as like gray area symptoms. They're things that

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<v Speaker 3>people started experiencing after their vaccine, but research has not

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<v Speaker 3>linked them to a COVID nineteen side effect. Those people

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<v Speaker 3>can't apply for the compensation scheme. We spoke to a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of experts for this story, and one that sort

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<v Speaker 3>of spoke quite instructively about the compensation scheme is a

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<v Speaker 3>guy called Marco Rizzi who's an associate professor of law

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<v Speaker 3>at the University of Western Australia. He said that best

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<v Speaker 3>practice around the world doesn't sort of knit causation and

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<v Speaker 3>eligibility together in the way that Australia's scheme did. Instead,

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<v Speaker 3>they take what he described as like a most probable

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<v Speaker 3>cause approach, which means that people don't necessarily have to

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<v Speaker 3>prove causality for their claim. It helps people feel heard.

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<v Speaker 3>But he also said that a functioning compensation scheme can

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<v Speaker 3>steer people away from litigation, you know, thrashing out in

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<v Speaker 3>court whether a vaccine caused XYZ. That can actually have

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<v Speaker 3>ripple effects for public trust in vaccination, which you.

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<v Speaker 2>Don't want to do.

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<v Speaker 3>But in Australia there has been litigation that's been launched.

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<v Speaker 3>So there's a class action that was launched last year.

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<v Speaker 3>According to the lawyers that are running it, more than

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<v Speaker 3>nineteen hundred people have signed on their interest to take

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<v Speaker 3>part in the action.

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<v Speaker 1>Right and Madison. Do you get the sense that the

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<v Speaker 1>reason that these people were overlooked or not listened to

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<v Speaker 1>is because to talk too much about the possibility of

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<v Speaker 1>harm being caused by a vaccine that was seen as dangerous,

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<v Speaker 1>particularly during the peak of COVID. So was there this

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<v Speaker 1>element of, you know, let's not give this too much

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<v Speaker 1>attention because we need everyone to focus on the greater good.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>From Nick Coatsworth's perspective, you know, serving as Deputy Chief

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<v Speaker 3>Medical Officer during the pandemic, he certainly felt that because

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<v Speaker 3>the focus was the role out and there was a

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<v Speaker 3>fear of, you know, scaring people off getting vaccinated, that

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<v Speaker 3>there were people that weren't listened to when they should

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<v Speaker 3>have been.

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<v Speaker 7>I don't think that there were hundreds or thousands or

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<v Speaker 7>tens of thousands of deaths caused by the vaccine. I

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<v Speaker 7>want to make that absolutely clear, but I do think

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<v Speaker 7>that there were significant numbers of people who were likely

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<v Speaker 7>dismissed when they should have been heard.

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<v Speaker 3>From Michelle's perspective as someone who went through this, she

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<v Speaker 3>definitely felt like that was the case, that she was

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<v Speaker 3>being ignored because it wasn't convenient.

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<v Speaker 4>We were collateral damaged for the greater good. That's the

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<v Speaker 4>part that's really hard to swallow, is that there's a

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<v Speaker 4>human toll that they know about that is not acknowledged.

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<v Speaker 3>This is a relatively small group of people that's important

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<v Speaker 3>to keep in mind, but it does seem like there

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<v Speaker 3>are wider ramifications for trust, and I think it's interesting

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<v Speaker 3>that that is one thing that the COVID inquiry found.

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<v Speaker 3>So the government did a long COVID inquiry which just dropped.

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<v Speaker 2>And it found that because of a number.

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<v Speaker 3>Of policy choices that had been made, from lockdowns to

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<v Speaker 3>mandates to transparency of communication, there had been sort of

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<v Speaker 3>quite a significant loss of trust within the community in

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<v Speaker 3>government and that that would have an impact on the

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<v Speaker 3>levers that the government was able to pull in a

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<v Speaker 3>future pandemic.

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<v Speaker 1>Madison, thank you so much for via Tad, Thanks so

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<v Speaker 1>much for having me. You can hear more of Madison's

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<v Speaker 1>reporting on this story with her co reporter Taynan King

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<v Speaker 1>on the ABC's background briefing program Also in the news today,

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<v Speaker 1>legislation aiming to ban Australians under the age of sixteen

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<v Speaker 1>from social media is set to be introduced to Parliament today,

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<v Speaker 1>with a cross bench already briefed overnight. It comes as

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<v Speaker 1>a wide ranging parliamentary inquiry predominantly focused on the impact

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<v Speaker 1>of social media on young people handed down its recommendations,

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<v Speaker 1>which did not include backing a social media ban for

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<v Speaker 1>under sixteens, and in his first public remarks since the

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<v Speaker 1>re election of Donald Trump, Australian Ambassador to the US

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<v Speaker 1>Kevin Rudd says he's ready to work with the incoming

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<v Speaker 1>US administration. Kevin Rudd has previously been highly critical of Trump,

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<v Speaker 1>calling the President elect a village idiot.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Ruby Jones.

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<v Speaker 1>This is seven am. See you tomorrow.

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<v Speaker 3>M