1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:08,559 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: The extreme volatility in financial markets in recent weeks has 3 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:16,600 Speaker 1: emphasized the importance of diversification in investing, but also the 4 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:20,760 Speaker 1: value of defensive, uncorrelated assets. One such asset which seems 5 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: to be growing in popularity is real estate private credit. 6 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: But like any asset, it's important to know exactly what 7 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: you're investing in. This is, of course, general information, only 8 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:32,160 Speaker 1: a starting point for your research, and you should seek 9 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:35,559 Speaker 1: professional advice before making investment decisions. Tom Cranfield is the 10 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: executive director of Australian alternative real estate Investment Management ZAGA, 11 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 1: which is a great partner of this podcast. He joins 12 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 1: me now in the studio. Tom, Welcome to Fear and Greed. 13 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Sean, thank you for having me. 14 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,520 Speaker 1: It might be self evident. But while we're all going defensive. 15 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 2: As you say, it may well be self evident. I 16 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 2: mean we've been a business that's been established for nearly 17 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 2: eight years now, so for us, it's not a new trend. 18 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 2: We've seen a growing trend towards the asset class across 19 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 2: that entire time period. We would like to think it's 20 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 2: because we can deliver consistent, stable returns that investors are 21 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 2: comfortable with the risk on. It's our job to be 22 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 2: an investor first business and produce those returns that they 23 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 2: are comfortable with. In the current climate, it would seem 24 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 2: the turbulence in public markets is driving that shift. I 25 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 2: think our role within that you mentioned correlation our industry 26 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 2: is far more correlated to interest rate movements. Real estate 27 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 2: is an asset class in Australia that's extremely well understood. 28 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 2: Over large or sustained periods of time, real estate values 29 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 2: have trended up. So I think people are comfortable that 30 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 2: the security for the loans which we are providing as 31 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 2: a real estate private credit manager have a safe, stable 32 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 2: underpin and they understand where interest rates are at in 33 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 2: the cycle. The low correlation to the public markets only 34 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 2: heightens the demand from wealth advisors, family officers, high networks 35 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 2: and other types of sophisticated investors who want income generation 36 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 2: in a stable, insafe in way. 37 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 1: Okay, so this is the diversification argument. Really, just explain 38 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,959 Speaker 1: how that fits. How real estate private credit fits in 39 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: to that spectrum of diversified assets. 40 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, from our perspective, we always say to people, 41 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 2: we're not here to replace your equities portfolio. You know, 42 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 2: there are people that are trained in the sixty forty 43 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:27,640 Speaker 2: model that are now looking at the current trend I've 44 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 2: been hearing lately is twenty five twenty five, twenty five, 45 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,919 Speaker 2: twenty five. Whether or not that's that's the way it goes, 46 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 2: we'll have to wait and see. From our perspective, the 47 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 2: diversification is to say that the population and investors require 48 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 2: income to be generated in a way that they can 49 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 2: rely on. We are here to help them earn that income, 50 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 2: and we're here to do it in a way that 51 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 2: they can effectively see us as the boring manager who 52 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:55,119 Speaker 2: gives them the stable, consistent return without all of the risk. 53 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 2: So we're trying to deliver that without a commensurate uplift, 54 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 2: and from our perspective, that's what we're seeing. The change 55 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 2: is the asset class become more prevalent or people taking 56 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 2: alternatives as a part of their portfolio. And most people 57 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 2: commonly define us to fit within the alternative bucket of 58 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,919 Speaker 2: fixed income. And it's the fact that you can get 59 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 2: the alternatives fixed income bucket for that return in a 60 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 2: way that doesn't have some of the publicly traded markets movements, 61 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 2: So for example, we don't mark to market our book, 62 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 2: so that daily movement the net asset value people can 63 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 2: make the return without risk of capital loss, or that 64 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 2: they can get in a way that is able to 65 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 2: be done on what we would call a rinse and 66 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 2: repeat basis for them. 67 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: Why are we hearing so much about this now? I mean, 68 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: you sort of definitely talk about twenty five to twenty 69 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: five to twenty five, twenty five and sixty forty, which 70 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: seems to have been going on forever, right, alternative asset classes, 71 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: be they in fixed income or elsewhere. Why is it 72 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: that we're talking so much more about it now? 73 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 2: I think as it relates to private credit, the original 74 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 2: shift was driven by change in regulatory rules, and that 75 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 2: saw the banks change the amount of market share which 76 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 2: they wished to have, particularly with regard to real estate. 77 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 2: So project financing, which we are most exposed to in 78 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:19,840 Speaker 2: respect of our investment thesis, is very strong on providing 79 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 2: construction finance to establish developers within the middle market. So 80 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 2: for us, that segment of the market, which had traditionally 81 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,840 Speaker 2: been dominated by the four major commercial trading banks. In 82 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 2: twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, they started to recede their market share, 83 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,840 Speaker 2: and it's the growth of that, driven by the withdrawal 84 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 2: of the banks that has established the private credit sector 85 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 2: because you can get the returns in a manner that 86 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 2: we believe to be safe, sable, consistent, and as I said, 87 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 2: Vincent repeat, that has attracted larger and larger amounts of investment. 88 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 2: There's less volatility, there's less uncertainty, purity of the real 89 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 2: estate that sits underneath it. Within from our investment thesis, 90 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 2: predominantly major metropolitan markets, so deep and liquid markets, although 91 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 2: we can talk about in liquidity within the asset class, 92 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 2: but deep in liquid markets that allows people to feel 93 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,799 Speaker 2: comfortable and that they're investing in something that they understand. 94 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 2: But the shift for the market to be greater and 95 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 2: more established. We see ourselves as filling the gap that 96 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:30,359 Speaker 2: has been left from the banks taking a less less 97 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 2: market share, and then we've seen institutional and sovereign and 98 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 2: offshore investors come in and want to grow that market space. 99 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 2: So in respect to the market itself, according to Alvarez 100 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,679 Speaker 2: and Marcel's research A and M, they released a report 101 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 2: I think two months ago. It says that private or 102 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 2: non bank lenders represents seventeen percent of the commercial real 103 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 2: estate debt market. That market's about four hundred billion dollars 104 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 2: according to their estimates. So they say that we have 105 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 2: the ability to grow to thirty five percent of that figure, 106 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 2: and that's driven by institutions offshore, local investors wanting more 107 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 2: exposure to a safe and sable asset class. If you 108 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 2: look at the US, the estimate is that their market 109 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 2: for non bank lending is around fifty percent and the 110 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,119 Speaker 2: UK and Europe is thirty five. So we actually expect 111 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 2: the trend and the growth and you know, the portfolio 112 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 2: diversification to continue as it has done for the last 113 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 2: eight to nine years. 114 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: Tom, stay with me, we'll be back in a minute. 115 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 1: I'm speaking to Tom Cranfield from ZAGAT. Ahead of the break, 116 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: we talked about the growth in the sector. Where do 117 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 1: the risks come in? Because every investment has a has 118 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: a risky side to it. 119 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 2: Absolutely every investment has a risky site. I think there's 120 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 2: lots of reputable managers. I think that any emerging asset class, 121 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 2: you've always got to do your due diligence, the same 122 00:06:57,400 --> 00:06:59,839 Speaker 2: as we do with respect to the fundamental and our 123 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 2: sins we conduct on the counterparties with which we invest 124 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 2: money with. So I think it's understanding the licensing regimes, 125 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 2: the governance, making sure that you're dealing with highly reputable 126 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 2: management teams, executive teams, businesses that have got long track records, 127 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 2: the established management teams, and they've got all of the 128 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 2: licensing in place, and you can understand all of that. Ideally, 129 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 2: if you could speak to your advisors, they should have 130 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 2: some level of knowledge of the different managers in the space, because, 131 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 2: as I say, the sector has been established for a 132 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 2: long time. So if you can take that due diligence 133 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 2: to a strong level and understand who you're dealing with, 134 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 2: then the counterparty risk becomes acceptable. From our perspective, it's 135 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 2: the same. On the other side, we're continually doing deep 136 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 2: dive analysis to make sure that who we invest out 137 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 2: our investors' money on behalf of with as the same 138 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 2: type of risk that we're saying to do with managers. 139 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: Okay, counterparty risks, So it's not that different to doing 140 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 1: your homework on a MidCap that's listed. 141 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 2: It's not that different, I suppose From our point of view. 142 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 2: Data drives decisions, so we're always undertaking our own fundamental 143 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 2: analysis to ensure that the rigor with which we put 144 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 2: due diligence on I use the word counterparties in more 145 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 2: simplistic terms borrowers is very The veracity of that is 146 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 2: very high, because it's extremely important that we don't just 147 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 2: understand the asset for their money that we're investing or 148 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 2: that we're lending. It's that we understand the people that 149 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 2: we are giving it too, so their capacity, their capability, 150 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 2: their character, and the fact that we know that they 151 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 2: have the ability to deliver on the project outcomes that 152 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 2: we're investing our investors' money on that need those outcomes 153 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 2: to be achieved. 154 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 1: And what about liquidity. It's not as liquid as a 155 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: listed asset. 156 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 2: It's traditionally not as liquid, there's no doubt about that. 157 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 2: I think that's one of the reasons why there's a 158 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 2: difference in the premium for the return between private credit 159 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 2: and the bond markets. You've seen many managers now have 160 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 2: new and innovative structures such as listed investment trusts. You've 161 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 2: got liquidity via funds, and then you've got people who 162 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:04,839 Speaker 2: wish to have less liquidity or they have less need 163 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 2: for liquidity, more need for income. So to those people 164 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 2: attracted to our space traditionally who want more or have 165 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 2: more need for recurring and stable income, they're less likely 166 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 2: to need principle, so drawdowns back are low. We have 167 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 2: actually seen in in our history our investors the average 168 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 2: investment has more than grown by fifty percent with our 169 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 2: base because people, if they are comfortable with your ability 170 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 2: to deliver and your track record is strong and sound, 171 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 2: then they are giving you more money because what they're 172 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 2: more interested in is the income return that they get 173 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 2: on their money. 174 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:38,559 Speaker 1: And most of your investors at ZAGA. 175 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:41,559 Speaker 2: Our investors are all sophisticated wholesale investors. So for us, 176 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 2: that ranges from small institutions, large corporates, listed vehicles, family officers, 177 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:51,079 Speaker 2: high net wealths and wealth advisors. We run five dedicated 178 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 2: investment funds, including a variable capital company or a VCC 179 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 2: in Shorthand out of Singapore. We have representation in Melbourne 180 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 2: and Sydney, and our management team has over three hundred 181 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 2: years of learning experience combined. 182 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: Right given where we're going, they're looking at the crystal 183 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: ball here, five years, ten years? Is this sort of 184 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: private credit and real estate private credit? You mentioned some 185 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 1: numbers you can get from seventeen percent in double thirty 186 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:18,680 Speaker 1: four to thirty five percent. At some point though, APPA 187 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: is going to change regulations for the banks, the bank's 188 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: going to say, hold on, we're missing out here, we 189 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 1: need to jump back in, or has the horse bolted? 190 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 2: Look from our perspective, we say the banks is a 191 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 2: great partner. You know, I mentioned the fact that we 192 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 2: do a lot of construction financing. We have a strong 193 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 2: thematic around population growth, economic growth and the housing supply, 194 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:42,199 Speaker 2: demanding balance to invest in people's money. On that theme, 195 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 2: the bank for us is a great source of exit 196 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 2: from loans. So they're funding the home loans for the buyers, 197 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 2: for off the plan purchases. If we're building a shopping center, 198 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 2: we're funding the build of a shopping center, they're funding 199 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 2: the takeout of that. So we still see our ability 200 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,079 Speaker 2: to be symbiotic in the market with each other is 201 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 2: extremely good. I think think it comes back to the 202 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:06,199 Speaker 2: covenant packages, the lending parameters, and we see ourselves as 203 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 2: a lasting relationships business. So we want to have relationships 204 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 2: on going with the major banks. We want to have 205 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 2: them with the developers, and we think that there's more 206 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 2: than enough market for everyone to go around, and as 207 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 2: I said, seventeen percent on the other side, that still 208 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 2: means they're eighty three percent of the market, So there's 209 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 2: plenty of market to share for everyone, and I think 210 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 2: that will continue to be the case for a long time. 211 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 2: I just think developers now from what we see, they 212 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 2: like the certainty of capital. They understand what the investment 213 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 2: managers are seeking, they understand what the lending parameters might 214 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 2: look like, and they're able to use those terms to 215 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 2: lock in, for example, the time that their builder is 216 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 2: going to start because there might be less pre sales. 217 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 2: So it's the nuances of what we do, and again 218 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 2: that reinforces why you need reputable managers that have a 219 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 2: clear track record of being able to deal with these groups. 220 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 2: But I think it's how we go about our business 221 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 2: that will allow us to continue to coexist with banks 222 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:56,959 Speaker 2: and each other will be viewed upon favorably. 223 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: Tom, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. Sure, 224 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: and thank you very much for having That was Tom Cranfeld, 225 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: executive director at Zagar, a great partner of this podcast. 226 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: This is the Fear and Greed Business Interview. Remember this 227 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: is general information only and you should seek professional advice 228 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 1: before investing. Join us every morning for the full episode 229 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:14,319 Speaker 1: of Fear and Greed. Business years for people who make 230 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: their own decisions. I'm Chanel one, enjoying your day.