1 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: Doctor John Brudwick. Welcome to the podcast. 2 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:12,640 Speaker 2: Thanks Ball, thanks for having me. 3 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:16,440 Speaker 1: This is take three. I think this kind of used 4 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: to this because of issues with recording software, and I've 5 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: now defaulted to good old zoom, so we'll see this case. 6 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 1: Yeah zoom, Jim, just one right, which is the good thing, 7 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: So give on this. So, actually, the reason that you're 8 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 1: on is that I read a LinkedIn post of yours 9 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: and it was on plastics and microplastics and really interesting, 10 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:48,240 Speaker 1: and I thought, I don't read a lot of stuff 11 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:50,519 Speaker 1: on LinkedIn, but I read your article right today and 12 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: then I started looking at some other articles you posted 13 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 1: and went, this is an interesting cat. I've got to 14 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: get them on because you're interested in the stuff that 15 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: I'm interested in. But you're actually in the field quite 16 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:05,680 Speaker 1: a bit, and I think you're probably jugged deeper into 17 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:07,839 Speaker 1: it than I have. So we're going to talk about 18 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: all things the science of egen. But tell our listeners 19 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: what your PhD was in, what your backgrounds in, what 20 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: you do now, and how that sparked your interest in 21 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:21,040 Speaker 1: this field of longevity. 22 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 2: Absolutely. 23 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, So in my background and my PhD or podical science, 24 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 3: I did a neuroscience PhD looking at a really nitty 25 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 3: gritty detail of molecular development of the brain, the forebrain. 26 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 3: So this was like really basic science, really interesting, but 27 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 3: very different from what I do now. But while I 28 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 3: was doing that sort of another project I got to 29 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 3: help with was developing these gene therapies for rare. 30 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 2: Lysisolmal storage diseases. 31 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 3: These are diseases where you have mutations in a gene 32 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 3: that's important for the function of your lysism which is 33 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 3: like the cellular recycling center, and if you have these 34 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 3: genetic mutations, your lysismes can't work and it's completely devastating. 35 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:11,679 Speaker 3: They you know, depending on which tissue is most affected 36 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 3: by the specific gene that's absent. 37 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 2: You know, they're devastating diseases. You lose function of that 38 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:20,239 Speaker 2: organ or tissue. 39 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:25,079 Speaker 3: In many cases you face premature death, really severe disability. 40 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 3: So these devastating disorders that we were trying to cure 41 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:32,919 Speaker 3: with genetic based therapies had a lot of success there. 42 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 3: But as I got deeper into that space, I started 43 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 3: of making these connections to all the longevity stuff that 44 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 3: I was reading on the side, which was you know, 45 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 3: a long standing interest of mine, and realizing that these 46 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 3: diseases of lysosomal dysfunction. They're really just severe examples of 47 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 3: what's happening to all of us as we get older. 48 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 3: Your cells and my cells don't look the same as 49 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:03,639 Speaker 3: they did when we were twenty They're not going to 50 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 3: look the same in twenty years from now, and a 51 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 3: big part of the reason why is that our lycisms 52 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 3: aren't functioning as well as they used to. So, you know, 53 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 3: we don't have these genetic deficiencies, we don't have these 54 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 3: severe issues that result in disease, thankfully, but they're certainly 55 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 3: not working as well as they used to, and it's 56 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 3: a major driver of a lot of the cellular damage 57 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:29,079 Speaker 3: that characterizes aging and decline. So that kind of brings 58 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 3: it all together, you know, in terms of how I 59 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,239 Speaker 3: got here and why I'm interested in now and what 60 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 3: my sort of angle is in this longevity space. It's 61 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 3: really understanding how all of these different interventions impact our 62 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 3: cellular health, largely through our lysism, sometimes through other pathways. 63 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 3: And then of course in my professional career, I developed 64 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 3: drugs for these diseases with amarchist therapeutics and with some 65 00:03:54,720 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 3: academic partners. Yeah, so it's sort of a nice link 66 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 3: between my professional and personal interest. 67 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and look, the cellular stuff is where it's all 68 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: that really when it comes to eating and disease. 69 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 2: That if you're a so biologist, it is, yes. 70 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, and yeah, my daughter would be in violent 71 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: agreement because she is studying now biomedicine and loves everything 72 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 1: to do with sales and cellular biology. But and lysisols 73 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: presumably they have a major role in autopogy. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, 74 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: can you just explain for our listeners autoplogy and why 75 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: it is so important at a cellular you know, and 76 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 1: at an overall function level. 77 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 3: Absolutely so so ourselves. I think a good bonology maybe 78 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 3: is a house or a car. You know, we have 79 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 3: all of these different components that have to function together 80 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 3: in a really intricate and complex way, but they don't 81 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,280 Speaker 3: last forever. Stuff wears out right, So that's true of 82 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 3: every cellular component, every cell in your body. Nothing lasts forever. 83 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 3: It accumulates damage. When we talk about reactive oxygen species 84 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 3: and ultraviolet light. 85 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 2: You know, different sources of damage. 86 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,919 Speaker 3: What that really means is it means that the components 87 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 3: that make. 88 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 2: Up your cells are deteriorating. 89 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 3: You know, it's at the molecular level, the molecules that 90 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 3: make up our cells degrade, and of course our cells 91 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 3: have evolved ways to deal with We don't want to 92 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 3: have this broken machinery sticking around any longer than it 93 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 3: needs to. Autophogy is the process by which it's one 94 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 3: of the processes by which cells take that material, break 95 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 3: it back down into the nails and boards and all 96 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 3: of the different raw materials, and then reuse it again 97 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 3: to build things fresh. So autoplogy literally, it's it's the 98 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 3: process it's self eating, that's what the word means. And 99 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 3: it's it's taking those cellular components, chopping them up and 100 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 3: this all list building blocks that the cells can make, 101 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 3: which could be amino acids or sugars or other metabolites, 102 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 3: and then using them as a fuel source again, using 103 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 3: them to make new new materials that don't have these 104 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 3: problems with damage and they can function better. And and 105 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 3: this is something that's happening all of the time in 106 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 3: every cell in your body. 107 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 2: The link between autopogy and the lysisome. 108 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 3: The lysosome is the terminal destination of everything that's going 109 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 3: through autopogy. So gotcha, when the cell autopogy, you could 110 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:37,239 Speaker 3: think of like the collecting process the garbage truck. Garbage 111 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 3: truck going out picking up all of the waste and 112 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 3: then it's delivering it to the lysosome. The lysosome is 113 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 3: the dump or the recycling center is a better analogy. 114 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,599 Speaker 3: So it's you know, they're really two ends of the 115 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:52,599 Speaker 3: exact same process. You can't talk about one without talking 116 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 3: about the other. Autopogy is more of a buzzy word. 117 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 3: They get the lot more attention, yes, but it's it's 118 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 3: it's really you know, the lycism is is why we 119 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 3: have autoplogy. It's to bring things to the lysisme. So 120 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:07,280 Speaker 3: I think it's it's just as important to look at 121 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 3: that side of things. 122 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 1: Too, and from us at a cellular perspective, we are 123 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: just master recyclers, aren't we, Like our salves do much 124 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: better than we do as as species as humans in 125 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: terms of recycling. 126 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 2: Oh, it's incredibly efficient. 127 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 3: We have to be I mean it's it's you can't 128 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 3: be taking every nutrient you need all the time, right, 129 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 3: some things are only available periodically, it's and we have 130 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 3: to be able to get those materials from somewhere. To 131 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 3: keep all of the cellular processes functioning the way they 132 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 3: need to. So yeah, I mean it's it's evolutionarily very ancient, 133 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 3: and it's widespread throughout all the kingdoms of life, and 134 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 3: it's it's an essential process. If you stopped doing that, 135 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 3: you'd be dead very very quickly. Yeah. 136 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: They It is really interesting, isn't that? The stuff that 137 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: evolutionarily conserved is this stuff that is core, absolutely core 138 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 1: to to life. Really whenever you see it across species 139 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: and a cross timelines, you go, this is a fundamental 140 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: trick of nature, right. 141 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 2: WHOA absolutely yeah. 142 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 3: And it can be interesting to look at the species 143 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 3: differences sometimes too. I think, you know, maybe we'll talk 144 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 3: about male studies in longevity later, but you know, lysosomes 145 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 3: and autopogy, they're they're different between species two and sometimes 146 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:37,839 Speaker 3: that can offer hints into you know. 147 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 2: What might be some of the drivers of disease. 148 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 3: But yes, very very conserved, and that hints at the 149 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 3: importance just like other pathways like like insulin or you know, 150 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 3: any longevity, these are all deeply conserved pathways. 151 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think the people who would be most 152 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: familiar with satophogy would be people who've engaged in intermittent 153 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:03,559 Speaker 1: fasting and particularly prolonged fast. I mean, a lot of 154 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,559 Speaker 1: the research is saying I mean, at least my understanding 155 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: of it is that some of the benefits, particularly if 156 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: you get into the four day plus water fast, is 157 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: that autophogy or ramps up massively, and not only within 158 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 1: the cells or the mitochondria as well. So we've got 159 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,679 Speaker 1: mitophogy within our mitochondria and then we've got cellular stuff 160 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: in it. Basically, the way I explain it is that 161 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 1: you go through a complete spring clean in your body 162 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: and eat up dysfunctional cells and just recycle it. It's very 163 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: very clever, isn't it that in times of poor food 164 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 1: availability that our body would go right, well, now I'm 165 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: going to do this cellular spring clean that has a 166 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 1: double advantage. Number One, I'm going to remove damage celles 167 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: that our sinesseenor could become cancerous. But secondly, I'm actually 168 00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: going to get a whole heap of energy from that 169 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 1: recycle process. 170 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 4: It's pretty freaking colon, absolutely, and I think it's it's 171 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 4: important to think about it too in terms of evolution 172 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 4: and where we've been as a species and where we 173 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:11,079 Speaker 4: are now. 174 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 2: We we evolved. 175 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 3: To function with periodic times autoplogy on a regular basis, 176 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 3: and we don't always get that anymore. And I think 177 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 3: it is, you know, it's it does get some attention 178 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 3: we talk about modern lifestyles and how they're detrimental for 179 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:31,079 Speaker 3: our health, but I think this is one of the 180 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 3: key reasons why, the fact that you know, everything evolved 181 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 3: to function with autopogy happening at regular intervals, whether that's 182 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 3: overnight after a number of hours of fasting, or periodically 183 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 3: with longer fests, or whether it's for long durations of 184 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:47,559 Speaker 3: endurance exercise. 185 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 2: It's all the stuff that we don't get anymore. So 186 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 2: if not autopogy process isn't being triggered. 187 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 3: To the same extent, and you know, we just talked 188 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 3: about why it's so important, So if that's happening less, 189 00:10:58,320 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 3: that's that's a very bad thing. 190 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 2: And I think that's why so many. 191 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 3: Interventions that seem to extend health span and lifespan they 192 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:09,319 Speaker 3: have a common threat of activating. 193 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 2: Utopogy and boosting lysosomal function. 194 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 3: And I think it's, you know, it's it's not an 195 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 3: accident that that's the antidote to sort of the modern 196 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 3: lifestyle we have. I think it really, really is a 197 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 3: key driver of some of the disease and dysfunction we're 198 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 3: seeing today. Yeah. 199 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: Look, I wrote a book called Death by Comfort about 200 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:34,839 Speaker 1: why modern life is killing us and what we need 201 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 1: to do about. And part of that is that we're 202 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: not living in accordance with our genome anymore when we're 203 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: in this environment of just constant comfort, which also includes 204 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 1: constant food availability and a lot less necessity to actually 205 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: move and do these sorts of things. But you touched 206 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 1: on my studies a lot of the there's a bocket 207 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:06,079 Speaker 1: heap of research being done in the longevity space, right. 208 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: So there's I think of this as two different areas. Right. 209 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,959 Speaker 1: There's the stuff that people will see in their social 210 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,839 Speaker 1: media feeds, right, And anybody who's listening who's got any 211 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: interest in longevity, I'm guessing that their social media feeds 212 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 1: are full of NMN, n R and a lot of 213 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:31,839 Speaker 1: these other molecules that are out there, or dietary interventions 214 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:37,119 Speaker 1: or hacks biohacks. Right. But there is some very serious 215 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: testing going on in terms of longevity, and this is 216 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:46,199 Speaker 1: the Intervention Testing program, right, So I know you're very 217 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 1: familiar with that program. And basically, just for the listeners, 218 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:54,199 Speaker 1: this is a multi site program, which is really important. Right, 219 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: You've got a number of different research labs doing the 220 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: same thing at the same time. And you mentioned mice. Now, 221 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 1: I get really frustrated when I see these clickbit headlines 222 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: about diet and then you find out that the study 223 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 1: was done on mice, right, which are not small humans? Right, 224 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:18,959 Speaker 1: And I think it's really important for people to understand 225 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: that the mice that are used in most studies are 226 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 1: are basically interbred, genetically interbred. The mice that are essentially 227 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 1: you're studying one individual clones there, clones, right, and and 228 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: so this should be ridiculous, like doing one an experiment 229 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: on you and then trying to make widespread assumptions for 230 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: all of human kind iss insane And you're one of 231 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: our species. 232 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 3: Absolutely, And it's saying it's even worse than that, because 233 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:53,559 Speaker 3: it's not just that they're clones. 234 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 2: They're clones of a very weird mouse. 235 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 3: This is a genetically normal mouse the way they exist 236 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 3: and have existed for many millions of years. This is 237 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 3: a highly inbred stick mouse that has some very unique 238 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 3: genetics and physiology. 239 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 2: So it's yes, it's a big problem. 240 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Now so the Interventions testing program has addressed 241 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: that because they use genetically diverse mice as well, and 242 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: they do rigorous testing of a number of different molecules, 243 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: and that has has really turned up some interesting candidates 244 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: right for potential longevity. But before we dive into all 245 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 1: of that, which I do want to dive into, because 246 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: we I think we can, we can bounce off some 247 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: of the stuff that's come out of that. I will 248 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: often say to people, and I'd love to get your 249 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: thoughts on this, that that. 250 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 5: Before we get into any of this stuff, we need 251 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 5: to get our house in order, and for me, getting 252 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 5: your house in order, the fundamentals would be exercised. 253 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: I think there's nothing comes anywhere close from a longevity 254 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 1: perspective as extra particularly in humans so far. That is diet, 255 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: And for me, the major thing a diet is controlling 256 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: insulin and reducing your ultraprocessed food consumption and getting adequate sleep. 257 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: And I think getting your vitamin D at a good 258 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 1: level is really key. And the other one that I'm 259 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: interested in that I think everybody should be interested from 260 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: a nutritional perspective is having good Amegia three levels in 261 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: your bloods and a Mega three score of e it. 262 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 1: Those who have at a Meiga three index of it live 263 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: about five years longer than people within a Meiga three 264 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: index of five. Right, I've never seen anything like that 265 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: in nutrition. So for me that I say, they're the fundamentals. 266 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 1: Get your house in order. Otherwise all of this other 267 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: stuff is all icing and no cake. 268 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 2: I think that's a very way to put it. Yes, 269 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 2: you're gonna find agreement from me, especially on exercise and diet. 270 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 3: It sounds like we view diet through a very similar lens. 271 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 3: An important thing to do is minimize blood sugar spikes, 272 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 3: and that agrees with everything we know about the longevity 273 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 3: and cellular health. So yeah, I mean I I can't 274 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 3: disagree with any of that. I'm also very interested in 275 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 3: omega threes. I think it's been interesting to watch that 276 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 3: field of all. As we've we've learned sort of the 277 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 3: relative contributions of Dha and EPA, which are two of 278 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 3: the major species that are in something like a fish 279 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 3: oil supplement. Emergen data is suggesting that it turns out 280 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 3: EPA is perhaps even better than DHA, which for a 281 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 3: long time you could find a lot of resources suggesting 282 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 3: the opposite opposite. 283 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 2: Yes, but yeah, I think. 284 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 3: A high EPA fish oil supplement makes a lot of sense. 285 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 3: And yeah, I think the one piece that that I 286 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 3: would add to that that there is a lot of 287 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 3: data on but doesn't get discussed as much, is having 288 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:13,360 Speaker 3: a robust social network. 289 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: Ah yeah, yeah, absolutely, hundred percent. 290 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 2: Real life social network, not an online social network. 291 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: Yes, we are violent agreement. And actually I wrote a 292 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 1: chapter on that of my new book because I think 293 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: it's hugely important. I mean, I think loneliness. I think 294 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 1: it's as bad for your health as smoking at least 295 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: ten cigarettes today. It's just crazy. Yeah. And so look, 296 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: if we get back to the interventions testing program via 297 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: a little diversion, right because I think I'm talking about 298 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,119 Speaker 1: the hallmarks of aging, I think it would be quite 299 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: interesting here. So some of my listeners will be familiar 300 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 1: with this because I've talked about it before. I say, 301 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 1: I can't remember. It was two and thirteen or twenty 302 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,679 Speaker 1: fourteen there was a paper released on the hallmarks of aging, 303 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: and there was nine of them then, and then I 304 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: think the same research group at it another three recently 305 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: about a couple of years ago. And I think what 306 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:11,439 Speaker 1: was autophagy disabled autopity is that is that in the 307 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,360 Speaker 1: original one or the newer one. I'm pretty sure. 308 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 3: That it's I want to say that that's in it 309 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 3: wasn't the original, but I'd have to go back and 310 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 3: check to be honest. 311 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's the routine. 312 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 3: That is being discussed a lot too, that that isn't 313 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 3: in that more recent update. But I think there's pretty 314 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 3: widespread agreement to that. That changes to the extracellular matrix, 315 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 3: so the the area in between ourselves, you know, that's 316 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 3: probably should be added. 317 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 2: As a homework too. 318 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,679 Speaker 3: But yes, it's as we learn more and it's going 319 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 3: to continue to grow. 320 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:46,159 Speaker 1: Ill absolutely the whole mark. But but these are things. 321 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: These are like the major and processes I guess you 322 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 1: could say, are mechanisms by which we age and and 323 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,199 Speaker 1: you know, some of them have proponents are like this 324 00:18:57,359 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 1: is the one, and then other people are like, it's 325 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: a lot a lot of them, right, and things like 326 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 1: telling me are shortening, stem cell exhaustion, loss of protiostasis, 327 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: disregulated and nutrient sensing, you know, and disabled atophogy. That 328 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: now your view, what is your I actually heard a 329 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: really interesting it was Peter A. Tia interviewing somebody who's 330 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 1: been in this space for decades. It wasn't Matt Kamberlin. 331 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: He used to work with Matt Chamberlin, and he said 332 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:35,399 Speaker 1: that he thinks that the major driver of aging is 333 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: disturbed homeostasis and all of these hallmarks are a result 334 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 1: from homeostasis going wrong in the body. And I thought, wow, 335 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: that's a really interesting take. And as he described it, 336 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 1: you know, we have these homeostatic mechanisms that are very 337 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: efficient when we're younger, and as we get older, and 338 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:00,920 Speaker 1: of sometimes we don't bounce back into home ostheesis, and 339 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: you know, we pop over a hell and that's where 340 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,679 Speaker 1: we get disease or dysregulation or some of these pathways. 341 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 1: Have you heard anything around the gast theory and what's. 342 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 2: Your calling on it. 343 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 3: I think disrupted homeostasis is clearly something that is integral 344 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,439 Speaker 3: to the aging process. I guess my question would be, 345 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 3: is what's causing that discress? Yes, And I think if 346 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 3: you go up a step from there, I think there's 347 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 3: a strong argument to be made that the aging is 348 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 3: the accumulation of damage. 349 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's structurally molecularly damage. 350 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:44,400 Speaker 3: It's you know, things that the structure not being where 351 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 3: it needs to be and then function follows from structure. 352 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:49,879 Speaker 3: So if the structure is disrupted, that's you know, the 353 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,200 Speaker 3: function the homeostatsis is what suffers. 354 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 2: So yeah, I think this is all. 355 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 3: There's not one drive of aging, and there's not one. 356 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 2: Hallmark that is more important than the others. 357 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 3: It really is an integrated picture where all of these 358 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 3: things are influencing everything else, and one key thread running 359 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:16,199 Speaker 3: through all of that is disrupted homeostasis. Yeah, the systems 360 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 3: and the ways that the stell tries to keep everything 361 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 3: functioning properly, they break down. 362 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, they stop looking as well. 363 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 3: And when that happens, then you start accumulating more damage 364 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 3: because you're not repairing it as efficiently and you're not 365 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 3: preventing it. And it, yes, very it's a cyclical process. 366 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:34,640 Speaker 2: Where everything's influencing everything else. 367 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, And basically it's very hard to get away from 368 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: that high level overview that aging is just a process 369 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: of to then almost inevitable process of damage. And so 370 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:52,679 Speaker 1: to that point, it's really interesting because there seems to 371 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 1: be two lines of thought in this space. Right. There's 372 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: a bunch of people whose meage focus is on enhancing lifespan, 373 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,360 Speaker 1: and then there's another bunch of people whose major focus 374 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: is on enhancing health span. What's your intuition say about 375 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: what we're going to be most successful lot, because my 376 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: personal one is we are going to be able to 377 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: influence health span way more than lifespan. I think live span. 378 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 1: These people who are talking about escape velocity and we're 379 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 1: going to exceed that, I think they're in l lah land. 380 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:36,360 Speaker 1: But you might think differently. 381 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 2: No, I don't like this escape velocity thing. I think 382 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 2: it it to me. 383 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 3: It feels like all of these singularities that we talk 384 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,680 Speaker 3: about across different fields that haven't come to fruition, and 385 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 3: I don't think. I mean, I don't know, maybe escape 386 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 3: velocity is real, but if it is, we're a long 387 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 3: ways away from it in terms of longevity. 388 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,360 Speaker 2: But yeah, I think you summed it up well. They're 389 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 2: they're kind of our two camps. 390 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 3: There's there's one camp of very intelligent, passionate people that 391 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 3: are are laser focused on radical extension of human life span. 392 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 3: So they, you know, they want to push the maximum 393 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 3: life span out, which you know, that's a tough to 394 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 3: argue with. 395 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 2: Who wouldn't want to live longer? 396 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 3: If you're in a healthy state and enjoying life that 397 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:25,680 Speaker 3: that sounds like a nice thing to most of us. 398 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 3: With that said, a lot of that's theoretical at this point. 399 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 3: It's that there's reason to believe that some of these 400 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 3: approaches might be successful. 401 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 2: But at this point we don't. 402 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,919 Speaker 3: Have sort of the first example to point to and 403 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 3: say like, oh, it's working. This stuff really is going 404 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 3: to radically extend human life span. I think I think 405 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:48,719 Speaker 3: we're a little ways away from it, and there's some 406 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 3: really good science happening there. 407 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 2: But then the other. 408 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 3: Piece, the other I guess you could say, the other 409 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:58,360 Speaker 3: camp is sort of the health span camp. It's it's 410 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 3: people who's focused and goal is to live a healthier 411 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 3: life that maybe longer. You know that those tend to 412 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 3: go hand in hand. If you're living healthier and having 413 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 3: less disease, you probably will live longer on average, but 414 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 3: you're still probably going to be capped by the maximum 415 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 3: life span that humans as a speet, these. 416 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 2: Have been dealing with for millions of years. 417 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 3: I tend to get more excited about the latter camp. 418 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 3: I really, you know, my focus, for my personal focus 419 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:32,399 Speaker 3: for myself is to live life as fully as I possibly. 420 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:33,919 Speaker 2: Can, and I need to be healthy to do that. 421 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 2: So I Yeah. 422 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,120 Speaker 3: I think health span is a wonderful goal to work towards, 423 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 3: and you're going to have life span benefits on top 424 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,440 Speaker 3: of it, in terms the average life span, not probably 425 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,439 Speaker 3: the maximum life span. Those are very different than decoupled. 426 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, they're very, very, very different. I don't think 427 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 1: we're going to see many humans living past one hundred 428 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: and ten, one hundred and twenty and no lifetime, but 429 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 1: we're certainly going to see a lot more humans living 430 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 1: to one hundred and beyond in better health than have 431 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 1: been previously. I think that's the big hope in all 432 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: of this, and I think we're obviously heading that way. 433 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 1: Well maybe not as a general population, but subsets of 434 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: the population are certainly heading that way. Right. Yeah. If 435 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: we come back now to the Intervention testing program, right, so, 436 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 1: they have tested a number of different molecules and looking 437 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: at how they have enhanced lifespan consistently. And that's one 438 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: of the interesting things. What for you has been most 439 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:44,360 Speaker 1: interesting that's come out of the interventions testing program? 440 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a few, and I think the most interesting 441 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 3: one for me, I really think the data on SGLT 442 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:58,920 Speaker 3: two inhibitors is very exciting and as close to ready 443 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:03,400 Speaker 3: for you white spread use as anything we have. There's 444 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 3: a lot you know, I think when you hear people 445 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,919 Speaker 3: talk about the Interventions Testing program, you know, wrap amin 446 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 3: gets a lot of attention. Yes, I think it's a 447 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 3: very interesting drug. It certainly does have lifespan extending properties 448 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,199 Speaker 3: across every species where we have data. So I think 449 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 3: there's a reason to believe that it's going to be 450 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 3: useful in humans. But we don't know how to dose 451 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 3: wrap of my icein. And yes, we're just kind of 452 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,640 Speaker 3: taking a wild guess. Maybe it's the right dose, maybe 453 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,439 Speaker 3: it's gonna work great, but we don't have readouts I 454 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 3: can confirm that. So I find that mouse data less 455 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 3: exciting because it's not ready to translate yet. But the 456 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 3: SGLT two inhibitors, which is a different class of drugs 457 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 3: that we can talk about, we know exactly how to 458 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 3: dose these in humans. 459 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's really interesting. Let's let's just let's focus 460 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: a little bit on rap themycin, right, because because it 461 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: can consistently showed stuff in the Interventions Testing program, there's 462 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: a rocket load of people in the longevity space who 463 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: are taking rap of mouse in off leable, right, And 464 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:13,639 Speaker 1: this is a lot easier to do if you live 465 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,399 Speaker 1: in the United States than it is if you live 466 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: in Australia. Right, Yeah, we cannot go to a doctor 467 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 1: in Australia and go can I get some wrap of 468 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 1: mouse in for longevity? It just doesn't happen like that, 469 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: whereas in the States there's there's a lot more off 470 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,399 Speaker 1: label prescription, so there's a bucket load of people taking it. 471 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: I've always I've been definitely well, I can't get it, 472 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: for a start, but I've been very hesitant around that. 473 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 1: And it was when I heard the head of the 474 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 1: Buck Institute, right, which you'll be familiar with. So for 475 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:52,400 Speaker 1: our listeners, the Buck Institute probably the biggest research facility 476 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 1: in terms of looking at the aging now. It's a 477 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,639 Speaker 1: massive focus on aging. It's in I think it's in 478 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 1: San Francisco, isn't it. But it's got all of these 479 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:06,879 Speaker 1: brilliant scientists doing really fundamental important research and they've got 480 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: a big focus on aging. His view was really interesting, 481 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: were you know, there's this theory about body size and 482 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 1: longevity across different species, right, and so you see that 483 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:25,439 Speaker 1: reasonably consistently that that smaller species tend to live longer. 484 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 1: But he said, mice, And he said they should live 485 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,400 Speaker 1: a lot longer than they actually do. So they're underperformers, 486 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 1: whereas way as humans are over performers in terms of 487 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 1: how long we live. We're outliers, we're outliers, right, And 488 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: he's saying that that we're outliers one way and mice 489 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 1: are outliers another way. And so maybe because if we 490 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 1: take a step back, rapamus and was basically it was 491 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: used for people getting I think it was initially when 492 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: they got organ donations and they would get that the 493 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: organs rejected and it was an immune suppressant, and so 494 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: it suppressed the immune system. And it's like, well Jesus, 495 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: some of those mice were on small doses and some 496 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 1: of them were on big doses and they all lived longer, 497 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 1: like and and how do you reconcile that with suppressing 498 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: of the immune system? Right? And so any any thoughts 499 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: on on that stuff and the difference between humans. 500 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 2: There's a lot of we could unpack there. 501 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 3: So I think, first to your point about the immune suppression, 502 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 3: keep in mind, all these mice are living, you know, 503 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 3: they're they're not in sterile environments. They are exposed to bacteria, 504 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 3: but there. 505 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 2: These are pambered mice. 506 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 3: They're they're living in stages, they're you know, once a while, 507 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 3: they're not the wines right there. So the need for yeah, 508 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 3: I mean that the ability to tolerate some immune suppression 509 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 3: is probably higher in these mice than it's going to be. 510 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 2: A you or I correct, So I think that's. 511 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 3: Part of the reason why we don't see a negative 512 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 3: impact of immune suppression there. But yeah, the difference due 513 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 3: to body size and physiology between mice and humans, that's 514 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 3: really important to consider lab mice especially, think about how 515 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 3: these lab mice were created for the purposes we use 516 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 3: them for today. People bread these mice to rapidly grow 517 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 3: and reproduce and make as many pups as they can 518 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 3: so we can run our experiments quickly and efficiently. 519 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 2: Having a short generation time is important. 520 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 3: Being really robust and resilient and resistant to disease, that's important. 521 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 2: So these mice, these are growth machines. 522 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 3: Yes, they are programmed to grow as fast and robustly 523 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 3: as possible. 524 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 2: So that probably means a lot of m tour activity. 525 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 2: M tour being the. 526 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 3: Target of the drug wrap device and the target that 527 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 3: we're inhibiting. So if you have a lot of m 528 00:30:55,560 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 3: tour because you're growing and reproducing as rapidly as possible, 529 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 3: and that the trade off for rapid growth and reproduction 530 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 3: is more damage, Right, That's what happens when we're growing 531 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 3: and activating those growth pathways. It kind of makes sense 532 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 3: that inhibiting them and putting the brakes down of the 533 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 3: little bit is going to be good for longevity. That 534 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 3: is going to make that mouse live longer and healthier. 535 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 2: Is the same true in humans? 536 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 1: I don't know. Mm mmmm. 537 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 2: There's there's reason, I think to believe that it could 538 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 2: be beneficial, but it's not. 539 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 3: It could be that there's a difference between lab mice 540 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 3: and humans that we haven't fully wrapped our heads around 541 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 3: such that the interventions we find in mice are always 542 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 3: going to be biased towards slowing. 543 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,400 Speaker 2: That growth, crazy growth, Yeah, putting the brakes in that. 544 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. 545 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 3: And if you look at most of the drugs that 546 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 3: in the interventions testing program, most of the best drugs 547 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 3: in one way or another, they're kind of doing them, 548 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 3: you know, they are more catabolic drugs that are putting 549 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 3: the brakes on that a little bit. 550 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 2: So I think there could be something to that. 551 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, for me. The interesting thing on wrap the 552 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: mice and is the stuff that Matt Kamberland's doing on dogs, right, Yes, 553 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 1: will be will be out reasonably soon. Right, So if 554 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 1: it jumps from mice to dogs, that becomes really interesting. 555 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 1: And then it becomes much more interesting when they do 556 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 1: it on primates. Right. People listening might go, why don't 557 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: they just do this stuff on primates because they're closer 558 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 1: to us. Well, they live a shit liat longer, so 559 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 1: it's so much Yeah, it's much more expensive and it's 560 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 1: just going to take decades and decades and decades. Was 561 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 1: the mice ones you can do quite quickly, But to 562 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: your point, there has to also be a what's the 563 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 1: mechanism here? And is it a plausible mechanism or something 564 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: that's repeated in humans that is a similar process that 565 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 1: we can then inhibit in humans, which is why the 566 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: SDL twos come in. Right, But just before we put 567 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: the wrap a mouse and story better, I think that's 568 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 1: kind of morphed into the m tour story. And you 569 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,479 Speaker 1: will see quite a lot of proponents of longevity saying 570 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: that we need to suppress m tour, right, and so 571 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: we should be on a low calorie diet, or we 572 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 1: should be doing lots and lots and lots of fasting, 573 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 1: or we should be reducing our protein. And I'm like, ohoh, 574 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: my spider sense is tingle around that, because we know 575 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: one of the best ways to increase your risk of 576 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 1: death is to have low muscle mass whenever you're an 577 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 1: older adult, right, So those two are kind of incompatible. 578 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 1: My I'm not sure if you have a formed view 579 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:45,480 Speaker 1: on the whole M tour pathway. The view that I'm 580 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: developing is that we need to switch M tour on, 581 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 1: but we need to switch it on intermittently, and we 582 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: shouldn't have it on continuously. And the best way to 583 00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: do that is to have plenty of protein in your 584 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 1: three meals, but not eight five, six seven meals a day, 585 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: not be constantly eating because protein gets a bad wrap 586 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 1: in this cride. But also carbohydrates actively at M tour 587 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 1: as well. Inchil An activits M tour correct and so 588 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: anytime you're eating food, you're going to be stimulating M tour. 589 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,839 Speaker 3: Yeah, and M tour's not bad, it's you know, it's 590 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,319 Speaker 3: doing a lot of good things for us. Like you said, 591 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:30,800 Speaker 3: muscle mass is a great example frailty is one of 592 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,279 Speaker 3: the worst predictors of longevity. You don't want to be 593 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,840 Speaker 3: frail as you age, and maintaining adequate muscle mass is 594 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:41,799 Speaker 3: an important way to combat that. But even beyond that, 595 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 3: I mean m tour is doing a key regulator of 596 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 3: growth and cell division and all of these essential processes 597 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 3: that we need for life. 598 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 2: You don't want, we don't want to shut. 599 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:53,359 Speaker 1: All of that off. 600 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 2: So I would agree, yes, it's it. 601 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 3: There is good rationale for having lower MT or activity 602 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 3: than what many of us have as we age, and 603 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 3: maybe periodically changing that either with you know, a pulsed 604 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 3: wrapomycin is is the rationale for why people are using 605 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 3: that or periods of fastating exercise, you know those exercise 606 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 3: kind of it both inhibits and activates them toward Its interesting. Yeah, 607 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 3: I did want to just mention too. On the protein 608 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 3: side of things. Yeah, this is something I've been very 609 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 3: interested and in reading a lot about because I being 610 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 3: an exerciser and someone who likes to try to build 611 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 3: my strength over time and a high protein diet. It 612 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,319 Speaker 3: scared me for a while because you know, there is 613 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 3: this association between a high amino acid intake and. 614 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:47,759 Speaker 2: Some decreased health outcomes. 615 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 3: But if you really dig into that literature, what you 616 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 3: find is that different amino acids, which are the building 617 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,840 Speaker 3: blocks of proteins, they have different relationships with health outcomes, 618 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 3: with longevity and leucine, which is actually the key amino 619 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 3: acid that activate them tour. Leucine doesn't appear to be 620 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 3: bad increase. Leucine intake is good across many different organisms, 621 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:17,319 Speaker 3: and it even extends lifespan in some organisms, whereas other 622 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:22,279 Speaker 3: amino acids like methionine and several others, they appear to 623 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 3: be the bad guys. So what that suggests to me 624 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:31,200 Speaker 3: is that the relationship between protein and health and longevity, 625 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,840 Speaker 3: it's not necessarily an M tour thing. It's probably probably 626 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 3: other pathways that mediate that negative relationship between protein intake 627 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 3: and some health outcomes. 628 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 2: So all of that to say, yes, M tour isn't bad. 629 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:50,400 Speaker 3: I think during periods of recovery from exercise, we obviously 630 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 3: want to be activating M tour get that muscle growth 631 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:54,400 Speaker 3: and tissue repair. 632 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,359 Speaker 2: But the important thing is that it's not on all 633 00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:57,759 Speaker 2: the time. 634 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 3: And this comes back to the top g discussion that 635 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,800 Speaker 3: we were having earlier that when M tour is active, 636 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 3: your cells are not doing autopogy, they can't that down. 637 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,759 Speaker 3: And also the pathways that build your lysisomes are also 638 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 3: shut down. So it's important to have periods where you 639 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 3: you let up on that and you kind of hit 640 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 3: the brakes on mTOR, which then relieves the inhibition on 641 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 3: autophagy and lysosomal biogenesis and and kind of lets those 642 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:27,600 Speaker 3: pathways have a turn. 643 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,000 Speaker 2: So, yes, I think it's absolutely about alternating. 644 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:34,319 Speaker 1: Yeah. Cool, So so how do you not take that 645 00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 1: knowledge all the stuff that you just talked about so 646 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 1: eloquently and and what does that mean for John? 647 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,239 Speaker 3: Yeah? And how do you mean to write an article 648 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:47,879 Speaker 3: about this about the amino acid thing? Because I think 649 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,920 Speaker 3: there are some interesting ways that you can sort of 650 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:54,279 Speaker 3: apply that knowledge. Let's let's say I'm right and that 651 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:59,040 Speaker 3: leucine is essentially good for us and that other amino 652 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 3: acids like methionine and cysteine are actually the bad ones. 653 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,800 Speaker 3: You know, it can be as simple as just varying 654 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,879 Speaker 3: the source of your protein supplement intake if you use 655 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:17,760 Speaker 3: protein supplements, So, for example, Way protein. 656 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 2: Has a lot of leucine. 657 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 3: It is associated with good health outcomes and a lot 658 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:25,759 Speaker 3: of very high quality studies it appears to be good 659 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 3: for us, but you probably don't want to just be 660 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 3: slamming way protein all day long and getting a large 661 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,359 Speaker 3: amount of your protein intake from that because it does 662 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:37,799 Speaker 3: have a lot of methionin, and it has a lot 663 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:42,840 Speaker 3: of cysteine. It also has isoleucine and other amino acids 664 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,360 Speaker 3: that maybe don't have the same positive association with health outcomes. 665 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 3: Collagen is actually one source of protein that is very 666 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,839 Speaker 3: low in methionine, so that can be a good way 667 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,120 Speaker 3: to sort of balance out that intake. Of course, whole 668 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 3: food protein sources are excellent in the best way to 669 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 3: get it, but personally for the you know the I 670 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 3: think if you're shooting for the higher end of protein 671 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,080 Speaker 3: intake for recovery, it can be tough to get that. 672 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,759 Speaker 1: It is difficult to get it just from Holford. I 673 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 1: totally agree, YEP. 674 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:17,920 Speaker 3: So what I even do is I've I've switched to 675 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 3: using collagen largely as a protein source with a little 676 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:21,520 Speaker 3: bit of. 677 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:23,040 Speaker 2: Lucine at it on top. 678 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 3: I have a tub of collagen, a tub of lucine, 679 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,200 Speaker 3: and I'll take the collagen. I'll throw a little a 680 00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 3: gram or two of loucine on top and you know it, Uh, 681 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:35,240 Speaker 3: if nothing else, it makes. 682 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,719 Speaker 2: Me feel better about when managing my protein intake. There's 683 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 2: no data to say that this is superior. 684 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 1: Is something that's effect the fact that it makes you 685 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:47,279 Speaker 1: feel better about it? Right? Yeah, right, yep, yeah, so 686 00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:48,200 Speaker 1: it would. 687 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,680 Speaker 2: Be an interesting thing to test. But yeah, people have 688 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:51,400 Speaker 2: at that. 689 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:55,319 Speaker 3: They've tested collagen collagen supplemented with lucine and compared it 690 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,600 Speaker 3: to weigh protein. Way protein is superior for building muscle. Yeah, 691 00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:01,799 Speaker 3: but you know, maybe you're getting enough of that with 692 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:02,480 Speaker 3: the collagen. 693 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and maybe just just mix it up. I think 694 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:08,560 Speaker 1: it's probably the take home on this one, and don't 695 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 1: have too much of it. Eat real food, eat real food. 696 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely. And there's also I should mention a lot 697 00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:16,840 Speaker 2: of good data. 698 00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 3: To suggest that plant based protein is associated with good 699 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:24,959 Speaker 3: health outcomes. Things like pea protein can be a really 700 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:26,680 Speaker 3: good supplemental source of protein. 701 00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:27,719 Speaker 2: Get course, there's 702 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,399 Speaker 3: Also like soy and stuff, but there is good data 703 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 3: to suggest that those are very healthy