1 00:00:04,230 --> 00:00:07,260 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear & Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:07,620 --> 00:00:10,260 Sean Aylmer: We talk a lot about the property market here and 3 00:00:10,260 --> 00:00:13,379 Sean Aylmer: everybody has a different take on it. Some experts say 4 00:00:13,380 --> 00:00:17,160 Sean Aylmer: house prices will keep falling, others say they're stabilizing and 5 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,370 Sean Aylmer: will even start climbing again next year. But new research 6 00:00:20,370 --> 00:00:22,440 Sean Aylmer: looks beyond the day- to- day price movements in our 7 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:26,220 Sean Aylmer: capital cities to show just how resilient the market is, 8 00:00:26,489 --> 00:00:30,660 Sean Aylmer: particularly in times of economic uncertainty. The research was commissioned 9 00:00:30,660 --> 00:00:34,470 Sean Aylmer: by investment manager and non- bank lender Zagga. Remember, this 10 00:00:34,470 --> 00:00:37,170 Sean Aylmer: is general information only and you should seek professional advice 11 00:00:37,170 --> 00:00:41,550 Sean Aylmer: before making any investment decisions. Alan Greenstein is the CEO and co- 12 00:00:41,550 --> 00:00:44,310 Sean Aylmer: founder of Zagga. We last spoke to Alan two years 13 00:00:44,310 --> 00:00:46,920 Sean Aylmer: ago, back in 2020. Plenty has happened since then. Alan, 14 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:48,390 Sean Aylmer: welcome back to Fear & Greed. 15 00:00:49,020 --> 00:00:50,790 Alan Greenstein: Thank you, Sean. Good to be on the show. 16 00:00:51,420 --> 00:00:53,430 Sean Aylmer: Righto. What we all want to know, Alan, where do 17 00:00:53,430 --> 00:00:57,240 Sean Aylmer: you stand on property prices? Up, stabilizing, down? 18 00:00:57,630 --> 00:01:00,180 Alan Greenstein: Sean, I'm probably the wrong guy to ask because Zagga's 19 00:01:00,180 --> 00:01:05,670 Alan Greenstein: business is not so much about residential property prices, although 20 00:01:05,670 --> 00:01:08,940 Alan Greenstein: that obviously plays a factor. What we do say is 21 00:01:08,940 --> 00:01:11,850 Alan Greenstein: that prices are certainly coming down. We're going to face 22 00:01:11,850 --> 00:01:15,929 Alan Greenstein: some economic headwinds. Those are unavoidable, but prices have come 23 00:01:15,930 --> 00:01:19,440 Alan Greenstein: off a very, very high base. Asset values have certainly 24 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:21,240 Alan Greenstein: ticked up. There's still a lot of value in the 25 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,840 Alan Greenstein: market, and although the newspapers every day are doom and 26 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:28,050 Alan Greenstein: gloom, if you actually look at the underlying fundamentals and 27 00:01:28,050 --> 00:01:30,959 Alan Greenstein: some of the research that's coming out, there's a good 28 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:33,660 Alan Greenstein: case to say that property prices are going to hold 29 00:01:33,660 --> 00:01:36,839 Alan Greenstein: up. We've had 40 years of growth in property prices, 30 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:40,290 Alan Greenstein: and we talk about this bubble and have done for 31 00:01:40,290 --> 00:01:42,480 Alan Greenstein: 40 years, but nobody has seen the bubble yet, and 32 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:43,620 Alan Greenstein: I don't think we're going to see it. 33 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:48,660 Sean Aylmer: Okay. That's pretty optimistic. Your white paper outlines the resilience 34 00:01:48,660 --> 00:01:51,240 Sean Aylmer: of the local property market with a particular emphasis on 35 00:01:51,570 --> 00:01:55,260 Sean Aylmer: times of global economic uncertainty. Just explain that to us. 36 00:01:56,010 --> 00:01:58,770 Alan Greenstein: Yeah. So, if you look at the history of the 37 00:01:58,770 --> 00:02:02,550 Alan Greenstein: Australian market, certainly in parallel with some of the big 38 00:02:02,550 --> 00:02:06,510 Alan Greenstein: shocks that have been seen globally, Australia has always battered 39 00:02:06,510 --> 00:02:11,190 Alan Greenstein: above its weight in withstanding and dealing with those shocks. 40 00:02:11,430 --> 00:02:14,880 Alan Greenstein: So, quite interestingly, some of the research shows that our 41 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,820 Alan Greenstein: GDP for a small country, I think we're about 1. 7% 42 00:02:18,750 --> 00:02:22,889 Alan Greenstein: of the world's population, our GDP is substantially higher than 43 00:02:22,889 --> 00:02:26,910 Alan Greenstein: that. We also have a situation where we need migration. 44 00:02:27,180 --> 00:02:28,980 Alan Greenstein: We have to import a lot of people to keep 45 00:02:28,980 --> 00:02:31,740 Alan Greenstein: the country growing, so we have a situation where there 46 00:02:31,740 --> 00:02:34,260 Alan Greenstein: is endless demand for property, which is not the case 47 00:02:34,260 --> 00:02:36,450 Alan Greenstein: in many of the other jurisdictions that are out there. 48 00:02:36,810 --> 00:02:39,180 Alan Greenstein: Of course, the fact that we're an island and we 49 00:02:39,180 --> 00:02:41,760 Alan Greenstein: only have so much land and can't extend beyond those 50 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:45,480 Alan Greenstein: borders is important, in terms of just how we finance 51 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,359 Alan Greenstein: that property and where we put it. Overall, the economic 52 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,360 Alan Greenstein: fundamentals of the country, in terms of the strength of 53 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,120 Alan Greenstein: the underlying property base, the strength of the economy, you 54 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:56,820 Alan Greenstein: can read in the paper today about iron ore exports, 55 00:02:56,820 --> 00:02:59,669 Alan Greenstein: steel exports, all of those things that are happening, the 56 00:02:59,669 --> 00:03:03,210 Alan Greenstein: way in which we've managed COVID, and generally speaking, the 57 00:03:03,210 --> 00:03:06,030 Alan Greenstein: fact that unemployment is still pretty low, although wages are 58 00:03:06,030 --> 00:03:09,060 Alan Greenstein: an issue. All of those things suggest that, yes, while 59 00:03:09,060 --> 00:03:12,780 Alan Greenstein: interest rates are going up, there is underlying affordability, and 60 00:03:12,780 --> 00:03:15,959 Alan Greenstein: property prices, although they may reduce in the short term, 61 00:03:16,110 --> 00:03:18,630 Alan Greenstein: aren't likely to properly crash or collapse. 62 00:03:19,740 --> 00:03:24,240 Sean Aylmer: So, this is the big macroeconomic picture. Now, Zagga focuses on 63 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:28,859 Sean Aylmer: commercial real estate debt. How do we think about that 64 00:03:30,210 --> 00:03:32,640 Sean Aylmer: as an investment class? How do we think about that? 65 00:03:33,930 --> 00:03:36,390 Alan Greenstein: That's a good question, Sean. So, I would just like 66 00:03:36,390 --> 00:03:39,090 Alan Greenstein: your listeners to understand what we mean by commercial real 67 00:03:39,090 --> 00:03:43,200 Alan Greenstein: estate debt. So, what we are doing here is we are not talking about 68 00:03:43,260 --> 00:03:47,460 Alan Greenstein: a property which is owner occupied or owned by an 69 00:03:47,460 --> 00:03:51,510 Alan Greenstein: investor for residential purposes. We're not talking here about funding 70 00:03:51,510 --> 00:03:54,420 Alan Greenstein: the end user. What we are talking about here is 71 00:03:54,450 --> 00:03:58,800 Alan Greenstein: using a commercial property as security for a loan, which 72 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,970 Alan Greenstein: is effectively an annuitized investment for the investor. So, that 73 00:04:02,970 --> 00:04:06,210 Alan Greenstein: commercial real estate loan, it could be a business loan 74 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:09,780 Alan Greenstein: underpinned by a warehouses, which is unencumbered. So, a businessman 75 00:04:09,780 --> 00:04:13,290 Alan Greenstein: is importing new widgets and he needs some funding. It 76 00:04:13,290 --> 00:04:15,450 Alan Greenstein: could be for a managed buyout, it could be to 77 00:04:15,450 --> 00:04:18,870 Alan Greenstein: fund a developer who's developing a property. Yes, that property 78 00:04:18,870 --> 00:04:22,080 Alan Greenstein: could have a residential outcome, but we are not funding 79 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,140 Alan Greenstein: the end user. It could be for industrial purposes. For 80 00:04:25,140 --> 00:04:29,159 Alan Greenstein: Zagga, we don't do agricultural, we don't do residential owner 81 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:33,060 Alan Greenstein: occupied and we don't do special situations. So, we believe 82 00:04:33,060 --> 00:04:35,520 Alan Greenstein: that if you consider that market there is more than 83 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:38,909 Alan Greenstein: enough growth and potential for that market, and commercial real 84 00:04:38,910 --> 00:04:41,460 Alan Greenstein: estate is effectively, in our view, going from strength to 85 00:04:41,460 --> 00:04:44,489 Alan Greenstein: strength as the banks are becoming less competitive in that 86 00:04:44,490 --> 00:04:48,000 Alan Greenstein: area, and the non- bank lenders are becoming more competitive 87 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,940 Alan Greenstein: in the area. The advantage for an investor is that 88 00:04:50,940 --> 00:04:54,600 Alan Greenstein: you effectively have an investment in an underlying property, without 89 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:56,970 Alan Greenstein: having to own the property, so you're not bound to 90 00:04:56,970 --> 00:05:00,120 Alan Greenstein: the ups and downs of the pricing cycle. Secondly, you 91 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,910 Alan Greenstein: can get a clear and transparent return, which could be 92 00:05:02,910 --> 00:05:06,359 Alan Greenstein: over a fixed period or over a period that is 93 00:05:06,570 --> 00:05:09,960 Alan Greenstein: to your choosing. The third thing is you're getting a 94 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:13,290 Alan Greenstein: very good investment, which is uncorrelated to equity markets or 95 00:05:13,290 --> 00:05:16,289 Alan Greenstein: uncorrelated to currency markets, which could be at a very 96 00:05:16,290 --> 00:05:20,039 Alan Greenstein: strong LVR. For example, on our portfolio across what we've 97 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:22,800 Alan Greenstein: now done over a billion dollars worth of loans, our 98 00:05:22,950 --> 00:05:27,390 Alan Greenstein: average LVR is 63% across the portfolio. So, the property market has 99 00:05:27,510 --> 00:05:31,049 Alan Greenstein: to go down by 37% across the board before you 100 00:05:31,050 --> 00:05:32,219 Alan Greenstein: lose a dollar of capital. 101 00:05:32,550 --> 00:05:34,560 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me. Alan will be back in a minute. 102 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:44,160 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Alan Greenstein, CEO and co- 103 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,760 Sean Aylmer: founder of Zagga. So, you are a good person then to ask 104 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:51,599 Sean Aylmer: if we're looking at that commercial property market, is it 105 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:55,229 Sean Aylmer: something that, I mean, where industrial is likely to do better 106 00:05:55,230 --> 00:05:58,919 Sean Aylmer: than office or retail? What's your take on that? Because 107 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,310 Sean Aylmer: if I am interested in your organization, I do actually 108 00:06:02,310 --> 00:06:04,260 Sean Aylmer: want to know what you are thinking about in terms 109 00:06:04,260 --> 00:06:06,029 Sean Aylmer: of the types of commercial property out there. 110 00:06:06,570 --> 00:06:09,930 Alan Greenstein: Yeah. So, Sean, we are not big into office space. 111 00:06:10,650 --> 00:06:12,960 Alan Greenstein: Just from a Zagga point of view, we tap out at 112 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:17,849 Alan Greenstein: about $ 40 million and offices are much bigger than that, 113 00:06:17,850 --> 00:06:20,609 Alan Greenstein: so we leave the office space to the much larger 114 00:06:20,610 --> 00:06:23,370 Alan Greenstein: developers. I'm certainly not an expert on that market, so 115 00:06:23,370 --> 00:06:25,560 Alan Greenstein: I'd prefer not to speak about it. But outside of 116 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:29,250 Alan Greenstein: the office space, we see tremendous demand for mixed use 117 00:06:29,250 --> 00:06:32,609 Alan Greenstein: commercial and residential. So, just think about the area where 118 00:06:32,610 --> 00:06:35,309 Alan Greenstein: you live, putting up a development which has got a 119 00:06:35,310 --> 00:06:37,830 Alan Greenstein: couple of basements of parking, one or two floors of 120 00:06:37,830 --> 00:06:40,380 Alan Greenstein: commercial, could be a doctor suite, could be a gym, 121 00:06:40,380 --> 00:06:42,390 Alan Greenstein: could be a restaurant, could be a vet, could be 122 00:06:42,390 --> 00:06:45,779 Alan Greenstein: a pharmacy. Above that, three or four or five levels 123 00:06:45,990 --> 00:06:49,200 Alan Greenstein: of apartments, could be two bedroom, three bedroom, a penthouse, 124 00:06:49,500 --> 00:06:52,169 Alan Greenstein: there's insatiable demand for that. We also think that there's 125 00:06:52,170 --> 00:06:56,400 Alan Greenstein: a very strong case for medium density residential coming through. 126 00:06:56,670 --> 00:06:58,950 Alan Greenstein: As more and more skilled workers come into the country, 127 00:06:58,950 --> 00:07:03,000 Alan Greenstein: we believe that the government's going to allow 195,000 extra 128 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,850 Alan Greenstein: skilled migrants on top of the quota over the next 129 00:07:05,850 --> 00:07:08,220 Alan Greenstein: couple of years, to make up for the shortfall. If 130 00:07:08,220 --> 00:07:11,340 Alan Greenstein: you consider that we have a downsizing population, people leaving 131 00:07:11,340 --> 00:07:14,130 Alan Greenstein: big houses into smaller, there's a bigger market for that. 132 00:07:14,310 --> 00:07:17,910 Alan Greenstein: Industrial is very much a horses for courses. You're not 133 00:07:17,910 --> 00:07:19,650 Alan Greenstein: going to put up an industrial site in the middle 134 00:07:19,650 --> 00:07:23,940 Alan Greenstein: of a residential area, but there are plenty industrial opportunities out 135 00:07:23,940 --> 00:07:27,300 Alan Greenstein: there, small warehouses. We have a country and an economy 136 00:07:27,300 --> 00:07:30,750 Alan Greenstein: which is based on small businesses, on owner managed businesses, 137 00:07:30,750 --> 00:07:32,910 Alan Greenstein: and these are the kind of people who build, or 138 00:07:32,910 --> 00:07:37,050 Alan Greenstein: who use these industrial sites. So, a small warehouse somewhere, 139 00:07:37,170 --> 00:07:40,770 Alan Greenstein: if you're a carpenter, if you're a welder, a mechanic, 140 00:07:40,770 --> 00:07:42,750 Alan Greenstein: a panel beater, all those kinds of things. So, we 141 00:07:42,750 --> 00:07:45,870 Alan Greenstein: see a lot of demand across the eastern seaboard for that. 142 00:07:46,410 --> 00:07:50,760 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So, how does inflation play into this? Because I 143 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:54,030 Sean Aylmer: always thought that rule of thumb, inflation wasn't good for 144 00:07:54,030 --> 00:07:55,050 Sean Aylmer: property investments. 145 00:07:56,130 --> 00:07:58,530 Alan Greenstein: Yeah. That's a good question and I think that from 146 00:07:58,530 --> 00:08:00,510 Alan Greenstein: an inflation point of view, we've got to think about 147 00:08:00,510 --> 00:08:03,030 Alan Greenstein: whether it's on the buy side or the sell side. 148 00:08:03,330 --> 00:08:05,790 Alan Greenstein: I think it's almost common course that in Australia today 149 00:08:05,790 --> 00:08:09,270 Alan Greenstein: a lot of the inflation we are seeing is largely COVID 150 00:08:09,270 --> 00:08:14,010 Alan Greenstein: related and has been driven by supply side shortages, by 151 00:08:14,010 --> 00:08:18,360 Alan Greenstein: labor shortages, and by, in certain instances, just the lack 152 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,120 Alan Greenstein: of being able to get product from one country to 153 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:23,820 Alan Greenstein: another. So, that's different to whether the government has been 154 00:08:23,820 --> 00:08:26,520 Alan Greenstein: printing money. Clearly a lot of money was printed in 155 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,760 Alan Greenstein: order to get the COVID bill paid, and we are paying 156 00:08:30,270 --> 00:08:32,939 Alan Greenstein: the price for that. In order to combat that inflation, 157 00:08:32,940 --> 00:08:35,189 Alan Greenstein: we are now seeing an increase in rates. But if 158 00:08:35,190 --> 00:08:36,990 Alan Greenstein: you have a look at the correlation or the lack 159 00:08:36,990 --> 00:08:40,230 Alan Greenstein: of correlation between the increase in rates and property prices, 160 00:08:40,230 --> 00:08:43,559 Alan Greenstein: there are still many, many postcodes in Australia where property 161 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:47,100 Alan Greenstein: prices have gone up. Sydney, for the year to date, 162 00:08:47,100 --> 00:08:51,270 Alan Greenstein: is only 10% down, and during the whole of COVID it was down 1. 163 00:08:51,270 --> 00:08:54,390 Alan Greenstein: 7%, and came off a higher base. So, if you 164 00:08:54,390 --> 00:08:57,900 Alan Greenstein: consider the impact of inflation, I don't think that inflation 165 00:08:57,900 --> 00:09:01,890 Alan Greenstein: is as heavily impacting the underlying asset values as it's 166 00:09:01,890 --> 00:09:04,199 Alan Greenstein: impacting say the cost of living, which is where it's 167 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,650 Alan Greenstein: really hurting. If you are an investor in say a 168 00:09:07,650 --> 00:09:11,250 Alan Greenstein: commercial real estate debt project, what you're really doing is 169 00:09:11,250 --> 00:09:13,559 Alan Greenstein: you're funding getting that building out of the ground, by 170 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,320 Alan Greenstein: and large. Are you funding the holding of an asset 171 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,890 Alan Greenstein: until the right time has come, or are you funding some 172 00:09:19,890 --> 00:09:23,339 Alan Greenstein: business purpose? The inflation is already built into that. When 173 00:09:23,340 --> 00:09:25,199 Alan Greenstein: we are funding alone, we know what it's going to 174 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,300 Alan Greenstein: cost and we have a sense of where the inflation 175 00:09:27,300 --> 00:09:29,520 Alan Greenstein: is. We're not going to get hit all of a 176 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,550 Alan Greenstein: sudden by the inflation. So, I actually think that these 177 00:09:32,550 --> 00:09:35,760 Alan Greenstein: kind of investments could be a hedge against inflation. Bearing 178 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:38,070 Alan Greenstein: in mind you know your return from day one, it's 179 00:09:38,070 --> 00:09:41,550 Alan Greenstein: effectively a fixed return. The asset that you're funding against has 180 00:09:41,550 --> 00:09:44,459 Alan Greenstein: got pretty deep pockets in terms of the LVR, and 181 00:09:44,460 --> 00:09:46,920 Alan Greenstein: you're not going to get impacted by price increases on 182 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:48,930 Alan Greenstein: a day- to- day or a minute- by- minute basis, 183 00:09:49,140 --> 00:09:50,880 Alan Greenstein: which is the case when you're trying to fill your 184 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:53,250 Alan Greenstein: basket of groceries or you're trying to fill up your 185 00:09:53,250 --> 00:09:54,030 Alan Greenstein: car at the server. 186 00:09:54,870 --> 00:09:57,390 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Alan Greenstein, the other thing we spoke to you 187 00:09:57,390 --> 00:09:59,429 Sean Aylmer: about a couple of years ago is peer-to-peer lending because 188 00:09:59,429 --> 00:10:02,130 Sean Aylmer: Zagga is big in peer- to- peer lending. How has 189 00:10:02,130 --> 00:10:03,900 Sean Aylmer: that performed in the past couple of years? 190 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,110 Alan Greenstein: Well, Sean, we prefer to think of ourselves now as 191 00:10:07,110 --> 00:10:09,240 Alan Greenstein: more of a non- bank lender. I think the term peer-to- 192 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,450 Alan Greenstein: peer is probably a little bit out of vogue, but 193 00:10:12,450 --> 00:10:14,970 Alan Greenstein: its gone certainly very well for us. I mean, we 194 00:10:14,970 --> 00:10:18,059 Alan Greenstein: have now gone through a billion dollars of originations in 195 00:10:18,059 --> 00:10:20,520 Alan Greenstein: the five and a half years we've been going. We've 196 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:23,400 Alan Greenstein: written well over 200 loans. If I speak to some 197 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,369 Alan Greenstein: of our clients and the many of our competitors who 198 00:10:26,370 --> 00:10:28,080 Alan Greenstein: are out there, and we have pretty good relations with 199 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,360 Alan Greenstein: a lot of them, it seems to me that there 200 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:32,790 Alan Greenstein: are many, many borrowers out there who now look at 201 00:10:32,790 --> 00:10:35,970 Alan Greenstein: the non- bank lenders as their first port of call 202 00:10:35,970 --> 00:10:39,150 Alan Greenstein: for money, mostly because of the flexibility and the agility 203 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,959 Alan Greenstein: and the response times. As far as investors are concerned, 204 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,960 Alan Greenstein: certainly when rates were very, very low, the peer- to- 205 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:47,849 Alan Greenstein: peer market was a great place to get a very 206 00:10:47,850 --> 00:10:50,790 Alan Greenstein: good and quite secure return on your money. Clearly, as 207 00:10:50,790 --> 00:10:54,809 Alan Greenstein: bank rates are increasing now, and our returns are a 208 00:10:54,809 --> 00:10:58,829 Alan Greenstein: little bit... Although they've gone up, the margin between what 209 00:10:58,830 --> 00:11:00,959 Alan Greenstein: the bank was paying and what we were paying is 210 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,319 Alan Greenstein: much lower today than it was then. Obviously liquidity's a 211 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:06,780 Alan Greenstein: little bit tighter right now, but I think that that liquidity's 212 00:11:06,780 --> 00:11:10,140 Alan Greenstein: also associated with just general lack of confidence in the 213 00:11:10,140 --> 00:11:13,650 Alan Greenstein: market. I believe that that will disappear. So, peer- to- 214 00:11:13,650 --> 00:11:16,290 Alan Greenstein: peer or non- bank lending is alive, it's well, it's 215 00:11:16,290 --> 00:11:18,780 Alan Greenstein: here to stay, and I think every day it claws 216 00:11:18,780 --> 00:11:20,850 Alan Greenstein: a lot more of the market back. It's only about a 217 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:25,949 Alan Greenstein: 50 billion per year market today in Australia, and that's 218 00:11:25,950 --> 00:11:28,920 Alan Greenstein: significantly less than the same size of the markets in 219 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:31,560 Alan Greenstein: the UK or the US. So, here's hoping. 220 00:11:32,010 --> 00:11:33,780 Sean Aylmer: Alan, thank you for talking to Fear & Greed. 221 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:35,610 Alan Greenstein: Thank you, Sean. Pleasure to be here. 222 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,120 Sean Aylmer: That was Alan Greenstein, CEO and co- founder of Zagga. 223 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,210 Sean Aylmer: This is the Fear & Greed Daily Interview. Remember, this information 224 00:11:42,210 --> 00:11:45,839 Sean Aylmer: is general in nature and doesn't consider your personal circumstances. 225 00:11:46,110 --> 00:11:49,170 Sean Aylmer: You should get professional advice before making any investment decisions. 226 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:51,510 Sean Aylmer: Join us every morning for the full episode of Fear & 227 00:11:51,630 --> 00:11:55,620 Sean Aylmer: Greed, Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer, enjoy 228 00:11:55,620 --> 00:11:55,800 Sean Aylmer: your day.