Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life. The average person is never
Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes in the contact with crime is
Speaker 1: left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into
Speaker 1: this world. I first crossed paths with today's guest, Adam Smith,
Speaker 1: in a maximum security prison. We didn't get off to
Speaker 1: a good start. He was warning other inmates there would
Speaker 1: be consequences if they were soon associating with me. But
Speaker 1: we've moved past that tense first meeting. Today we sat
Speaker 1: down and had a chat. We talked about what took
Speaker 1: place in that prison, his life as a member of
Speaker 1: an outlaw motorcycle gang, and he's time in gold and
Speaker 1: supermax prison, which is a violent place where loyalties were
Speaker 1: based on gang affiliation and race, and how through the
Speaker 1: stroke of good luck and the foresight of some corrective
Speaker 1: services officers he managed to turn his life around. I
Speaker 1: think Adam has an important message. Let's have a listen
Speaker 1: to what he has to say. Adam, thanks for coming
Speaker 1: on my catch killers that problem going. When I walked
Speaker 1: into your prison dorm a year or so ago and
Speaker 1: there was twenty five maximum security prisoners there snarling at me,
Speaker 1: and I didn't think we'd be sitting down this time
Speaker 1: in a studio having a chat.
Speaker 2: No, I wouldn't think so, because I would have thought
Speaker 2: that the time. But you didn't realize this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, yeah it was. I got to say. When
Speaker 1: I've walked in there, I thought, yeah, this isn't a
Speaker 1: good idea, probably not the smartest, smartest thing. I wasn't
Speaker 1: sure if I was going to walk out of there.
Speaker 2: Actually, I could imagine it would have been a little
Speaker 2: intimidating for econe from your background to there.
Speaker 1: But yeah, well I didn't expect an ex high profile
Speaker 1: cop to be too popular in that environment. Look, we
Speaker 1: probably should explain what I was doing there, because I
Speaker 1: think it's interesting. I'd like to get your take on it,
Speaker 1: the thoughts from your perspective how it came about. Corrective
Speaker 1: Services invited me into the prison to have a look
Speaker 1: at a new way they were doing a prison system,
Speaker 1: Macquarie Correctional Center, maximum security prison. On paper, it seemed
Speaker 1: like a good idea. I thought, Yeah, that's cool. We'll
Speaker 1: go in and hang out with the inmates and find
Speaker 1: out what they think of this new system. Probably didn't
Speaker 1: think it too much, and when we walked into your
Speaker 1: dorm unannounced, I thought I fucked up here because there
Speaker 1: was groups of prisoners just forming little groups, talking and
Speaker 1: making it very clear what they thought of me. And
Speaker 1: I wasn't too popular in there. I didn't want to
Speaker 1: sort of turn around and run out. That wouldn't have
Speaker 1: been a good look, so I tried to play it
Speaker 1: cool and just hold my ground a little bit. I
Speaker 1: spoke to some of the some of the prisoners in there,
Speaker 1: but I've got a sense it wasn't very well appreciated,
Speaker 1: and it was very clear what people wanted to do
Speaker 1: to me in looks and gestures. So I made after
Speaker 1: a short discussion with a few of the inmates made
Speaker 1: a tactical retreat from there. With my dignity intact, I
Speaker 1: didn't run out. But you're in there. You're in there
Speaker 1: at the time, what was going through your mind? Because
Speaker 1: I know I just rocked up there unannounced and people
Speaker 1: recognize me pretty quickly.
Speaker 2: Okay, So from my point of view, I knew it
Speaker 2: was a good thing. There was an opportunity to show
Speaker 2: off the new model of correct need services, I guess,
Speaker 2: which has been a battle and it will be an
Speaker 2: ongoing battle because there's the hard line that that is
Speaker 2: still convinced that if you're a prisoner, you should just
Speaker 2: be locking a cell and that's it. Is we going
Speaker 2: to remember that our country was built off the back
Speaker 2: of convicts. There's always going to be a jail system.
Speaker 2: But if we can have guys that go through whatever
Speaker 2: they go through in life. On let's face that a
Speaker 2: lot of people go for a lot of stuff in
Speaker 2: life that leads them down these paths. You know, if
Speaker 2: we can really abilitate these people, light myself and get
Speaker 2: them back out, and you'll probably find that most of
Speaker 2: them have something to prove and they're going to be
Speaker 2: a productive member of society.
Speaker 1: Well, I think that's why corrective services want to be
Speaker 1: in there. And I was trying to sell the position
Speaker 1: to you guys, and you were one of the inmates
Speaker 1: that were telling people not to not to talk to me.
Speaker 1: That's right, and because you thought some heat would come
Speaker 1: down anyone that's seen associating with me. But eventually we
Speaker 1: sort of got the message across that. You know, if
Speaker 1: I go in there as the next cop, and I'm
Speaker 1: saying I reckon this works, carry it gives you guys
Speaker 1: a platform can explain what's going on.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2: So essentially what's happened in this new model of jail
Speaker 2: as it goes, there's people that people look up to
Speaker 2: in jail. So there's a fair few of us essentially
Speaker 2: that were just babyshitters. Now this was I guess for
Speaker 2: us to keep this model of jail. We do this
Speaker 2: so that all the benefits that come along with having it.
Speaker 2: So I did an education in there. I come from
Speaker 2: probably the darkest space that you come from on Australian
Speaker 2: soil to go to a place where I shined.
Speaker 1: How long how long had you done in prison or
Speaker 1: how long have you done in prison?
Speaker 2: So just over six years in total. So basically the
Speaker 2: I only ever did small amounts before this was a
Speaker 2: six year sentence.
Speaker 3: So it was a six or the nine.
Speaker 1: Okay, And we're going to talk about that now, how
Speaker 1: your life got got to that point. But you went
Speaker 1: from extremes and I want to break it down the
Speaker 1: two prison experiences you had from gold and Supermax, which
Speaker 1: I've been in that prison as well, and I want
Speaker 1: to talk about that because that's that's a heavy, heavy
Speaker 1: scene there, and you've gone to Mcquarie Correctional Center. But
Speaker 1: the fact is that Macquarie there's still maximum security prisoners. Like,
Speaker 1: it's not all the soft people in prison. There's some.
Speaker 1: I recognized a lot of the faces and had dealings
Speaker 1: with some of the people in there.
Speaker 3: That's right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, like I said, so before I went there,
Speaker 2: there was never meant to be any gang members. But
Speaker 2: that was that was off the table. That story we'll
Speaker 2: get into as we go along. I guess we'll start
Speaker 2: from when I come into classy this time, or start.
Speaker 1: Let's let's wind it back a bit, because you weren't
Speaker 1: born in jail, I don't think, so, tell us about
Speaker 1: your childhood and your upbringing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay.
Speaker 2: So I come from a very good family and a
Speaker 2: beautiful mom and dad, brothers, sister, extended family. That's perfect,
Speaker 2: you know. But unfortunately, when I was younger, I suffered
Speaker 2: through some traumatic situations that led me down a path, right,
Speaker 2: which had nothing to do with my family.
Speaker 1: Now, just on that issue, because we spoke about that
Speaker 1: the other day when we're having a chat and you said,
Speaker 1: you don't want to go into details, but something that
Speaker 1: happened to you when you're a young teenager that's right
Speaker 1: on a school camp, and you just don't want to
Speaker 1: break break it down, but that had a profound effect on.
Speaker 3: You, that's right.
Speaker 2: That led me down a path that I really didn't
Speaker 2: know how to get out of in a sense, you know,
Speaker 2: but I did try, like throughout those younger years, you know,
Speaker 2: like and there were other things that were happening like
Speaker 2: around me that sort of you know, intensified what was
Speaker 2: happening with me from that experience, And there were so
Speaker 2: many times where I sort of tried to tell my mum,
Speaker 2: but I couldn't really bring myself to do it, you know,
Speaker 2: because I can't deal with that sort of thing, you know.
Speaker 2: But anyway, that led me into a path that I
Speaker 2: was just started to get into trouble, you know.
Speaker 1: Okay, so up until early childhood, you said, a good family.
Speaker 1: What theyre did you grow up in?
Speaker 3: Okay?
Speaker 2: So I was at West Bimble until about six years old,
Speaker 2: and then we moved to the Hawksbury. So I went
Speaker 2: to Pittown Primary School and then I signed up to
Speaker 2: go to Winsor High School. I didn't really attend too much,
Speaker 2: but I used to go to music and sport and
Speaker 2: that's probably you had hit.
Speaker 1: So you're a student on paper, but you didn't spend
Speaker 1: much time there.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Sorry, I did manage to I guess touch the hearts
Speaker 2: of some of the teachers, isn't that because so many
Speaker 2: people did.
Speaker 3: Try for me.
Speaker 2: I guess that's one of my regrets that throughout that
Speaker 2: time I did let so many people down, you know,
Speaker 2: because a lot of people did try for me.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: Well, I think it says a bit about yourself the
Speaker 1: fact that you recognize the fact that, yeah, there were
Speaker 1: people trying to try to help you, and you didn't
Speaker 1: take up take up the office.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, How old were you when you first start going
Speaker 1: off the rails and getting into trouble and getting.
Speaker 3: Up the ship.
Speaker 2: I think it was immediately from that point on I
Speaker 2: really struggled with identity. Yeah, from that point on, I
Speaker 2: started to get into a lot of trouble, you know,
Speaker 2: Like I think it was probably that age I got
Speaker 2: brought home.
Speaker 3: By the police.
Speaker 1: You know, what was that for the first time.
Speaker 2: I think it was a stolen pushbike or something like that. Actually, no,
Speaker 2: it was a stolen pushbike, and it was just a
Speaker 2: silly situation. I didn't even steal the pushbike. But I
Speaker 2: think this come back to where I come from, with
Speaker 2: a good nature that led me into a path and
Speaker 2: I tried to help at the time, and I ended
Speaker 2: up in the cop car getting taken ot you know.
Speaker 2: And then I guess trying and explain that to your parents,
Speaker 2: but the cops brought your home, you know, and at
Speaker 2: that point I started to go off the rail. So
Speaker 2: there was trust already gone, you know.
Speaker 1: Okay, so first experience being brought brought home by the cops,
Speaker 1: there was still a point to turn your life around.
Speaker 1: But you hanging out with the wrong crowd or what
Speaker 1: I get.
Speaker 2: I guess there's always that, you know, But what ended
Speaker 2: up happening essentially because I was the wrong crowd.
Speaker 1: Okay, well that's that's being honest.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean not so much through that time frame,
Speaker 2: but definitely before I went to prison, there's only two
Speaker 2: ways that my life was going to end.
Speaker 1: Then did you I tried to get a sceint at
Speaker 1: that age, did you did the thought of going to
Speaker 1: prison scare you? Did you think that was just?
Speaker 3: Or did you when when I went to prison.
Speaker 1: Before, as you were a kid, like the consequences, because
Speaker 1: I'm sure cops would have said to you as they're
Speaker 1: bringing you home, you're going to end up in prison,
Speaker 1: You're going to throw your life away and all that.
Speaker 1: Does that resonate with you when that said to you
Speaker 1: at that age when you're going on that path.
Speaker 3: Not so much. So I got very lucky.
Speaker 2: I actually got sentenced to six months on the bottom
Speaker 2: from Windsor Courthouse and I ended up in the cells.
Speaker 2: And when I was in the cells, there's all these
Speaker 2: boys from high school that come in the greens from
Speaker 2: Silver Order and this is my first real experience inside.
Speaker 1: How old were you then, I'd say I would.
Speaker 2: Have been eighteen. I would have been just saden because
Speaker 2: I would have been on to prison, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And so one of them turned up. One of them
Speaker 2: had a talio and is shoe. The other one had
Speaker 2: a bit of tobacco. I wanted a bit of flint
Speaker 2: one out of a thing, and I thought it was cool.
Speaker 2: And I was off prison and I was, let's go,
Speaker 2: let's go to prison. But then they come through and said, oh,
Speaker 2: your father's just post your bail and you're walking out,
Speaker 2: and I was like I was at the time. I
Speaker 2: was a little disappointed. I was like, I was young,
Speaker 2: formid of excursion.
Speaker 1: You know, Okay, I've heard some stories here, but okay,
Speaker 1: a bit disappointed.
Speaker 2: Thinking back, Maybe maybe I shouldn't have post the bail.
Speaker 2: Maybe I should have done that six months. I think
Speaker 2: that anyone going off the rails needs to experience what
Speaker 2: prison's like because it teaches it a lot as a character.
Speaker 1: It's a hard call, isn't it. Because there's one school
Speaker 1: of thought that, Okay, let's go hard ad them when
Speaker 1: they're youngsters and yeah, you've just turned eight. In put
Speaker 1: them in prison and show them what life's really like.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then there's the other school of thought that if
Speaker 1: you throw them in there, it just becomes a graduation
Speaker 1: for a career as a criminal.
Speaker 2: And it does for lots lots of boys, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 2: some of these connections that you're making there.
Speaker 1: It's like my preference if you can keep young fellas
Speaker 1: and girls for that matter, out of prison, because I
Speaker 1: think if you're in there, it's sort of it's almost
Speaker 1: you carry that on your shoulder, the chip on your shoulder.
Speaker 2: Will I would definitely agree. In my circumstances back then,
Speaker 2: I think things may change for me. Howd I gone
Speaker 2: to prison? This wasn't anyone's fault. This is just the
Speaker 2: way things look out. No one could have predicted that
Speaker 2: that I could got bail at the last minute, or
Speaker 2: like I said, I come from a good family.
Speaker 3: You know, what's my dad's in the post bail for me?
Speaker 1: What sort of offense were you in for at that stage?
Speaker 1: What was it?
Speaker 3: I think it was a sault.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I've always had a problem with assaults, and
Speaker 2: like violence has been an issue for me, and it
Speaker 2: actually made me sick, you know, Like this was something
Speaker 2: that I dealt with when I was going through super Max.
Speaker 3: Mainly you get consumed by violence, you know.
Speaker 1: Well, you told me an interesting story the other other
Speaker 1: day that you met a blake when you were sixteen
Speaker 1: or whatever, started getting into the weights and the street
Speaker 1: fighting and learning boxing, and it almost became you were
Speaker 1: drawing attention to yourself and people were picking fights around you,
Speaker 1: knowing that you'd step in, and you went from one
Speaker 1: battle to another. What was it? What was the gay
Speaker 1: with that that guy? What influence did he have have
Speaker 1: on you?
Speaker 3: So at this point, there's so to say.
Speaker 2: Let's just say at that point, maybe when I was fifteen,
Speaker 2: when we crossed bars, so I'd already gone for a lot,
Speaker 2: and I was already dealing with a lot. But at
Speaker 2: this point I'd sort of managed through you through substance
Speaker 2: and things like that, and whereas none of this was
Speaker 2: an issue anymore, and I was just I was on
Speaker 2: the front foot run of the market.
Speaker 1: Lot of banger in you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely a lot of anger in me and just
Speaker 2: not knowing how to direct it or deal with it,
Speaker 2: you know, And yeah, and it just it consumes you.
Speaker 3: But my crossing paths.
Speaker 2: I won't mention his name because he may not want
Speaker 2: to say mention, but he'll know who he is. And
Speaker 2: a credit to him, he's doing very very well for himself.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: He's got himself a massive business and he's really doing well,
Speaker 2: got a good family. Before I crossed bars with him,
Speaker 2: he did an eight year sentence for armed robberies.
Speaker 3: Old school.
Speaker 2: This guy will stand up on his toes at any time,
Speaker 2: no matter what's in front of him, right, And I
Speaker 2: admired that because something that I taught myself was with
Speaker 2: what happened, was that I was going to build myself up.
Speaker 2: No one was ever going to hurt me again. And
Speaker 2: that's part of the reason I guess why I ended
Speaker 2: up going through the clubs and that too.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: Interesting you say that, because I've seen a lot of
Speaker 1: blokes sit where you're sitting, not just since I've been
Speaker 1: out of the cops, when I was in the cops,
Speaker 1: that yeah, I'm not going to be a victim anymore.
Speaker 1: I'm going to look out for myself and no one's
Speaker 1: going to fuck with me, basically, and that sort of
Speaker 1: gratitude that can lead down the path that ends up
Speaker 1: in the clubs.
Speaker 3: And that's right, that's right, And.
Speaker 2: It wasn't going to happen in that world or that
Speaker 2: world and the consequences that, like I said, was only
Speaker 2: going to end it either one or two ways for
Speaker 2: me at the time. But I'm glad that whatever I've
Speaker 2: gone through now and I'm in a really good place now,
Speaker 2: you know. And I'm in a place now that I
Speaker 2: can help others going through what I was going through.
Speaker 2: You know, especially as far as going through gangs and
Speaker 2: that sort of stuff.
Speaker 1: It sounds like you didn't have the skills to walk
Speaker 1: away from the violence or the prontation, and it was
Speaker 1: just the one thing you were good at.
Speaker 2: Well, when you say skill, I don't think I had
Speaker 2: the emotional maturity. It was just easier for me to
Speaker 2: go that way, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you look look back at that time, and yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I wasted all these years.
Speaker 3: So many people go walk around think I'm on this
Speaker 3: that no regrets. Come on me.
Speaker 2: I've got nothing but regrets. But it's made me who
Speaker 2: I am now, and who I am now like I
Speaker 2: love this person and I've got people that love me,
Speaker 2: and that's all that matters now.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: I got the sense that you're close with your family,
Speaker 1: and so you must look back at them and think, Jesus,
Speaker 1: I cause you guys some headaches over the years.
Speaker 2: My mum will looks at this and have a laugh.
Speaker 2: I torment her every day. My Dad said, torment her
Speaker 2: like nothing else. But yeah, you know, you can't take
Speaker 2: things back when you can't take them back, and if
Speaker 2: you're going to keep looking back, you're not going to
Speaker 2: go forward.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: When I come home from jail, like, I'm fairly good
Speaker 2: with my words in situations like this, and when I'm
Speaker 2: standing in front of people talking, that's fine, and when
Speaker 2: it's coming from the heart, there's always giving to be
Speaker 2: something like that up, you know. But I did say
Speaker 2: to Mum and Dad when I come home that I
Speaker 2: appreciate everything that you do for me, and I apologize
Speaker 2: for everything else, you know, But they knew it.
Speaker 1: I mean, well, yeah, that's all you can do. And
Speaker 1: I suppose the reward for them is if you're turning
Speaker 1: your life around now and yeah, it's okay. We all
Speaker 1: grow up at different stages in life or will come
Speaker 1: to the realization and what the path we should be following.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm sure they understood. But I get the
Speaker 1: sense that they stayed with you the whole time, which
Speaker 1: is yeah, mate, So you're fortunate there because you would
Speaker 1: have seen a lot of blokes in prisons that didn't
Speaker 1: have that support. That makes a lot harder doesn't.
Speaker 2: It definitely, definitely. You know, there's a lot of people
Speaker 2: in prison that they are using drugs or stuff like that.
Speaker 2: The way they treat their families terrible.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: Maccruarie did try to implement a strategy that would help
Speaker 2: rather than punish addicts, and which the fundamentals of it
Speaker 2: all was great, but there was just a few things
Speaker 2: in there that was a little bit I guess, of
Speaker 2: a violation to an inmate in the sense, like one
Speaker 2: of the things we was was if you got caught
Speaker 2: doing something, rather than coper charge or refine and we
Speaker 2: take you off everything and then and that just puts
Speaker 2: you out for a hustle. Anyway, we can sit down
Speaker 2: with you and you can call your parents and tell
Speaker 2: your parents exactly what the money's been used for that
Speaker 2: they send you right now. I guess the theory behind
Speaker 2: it is they think and they're helping people. But for
Speaker 2: a lot of these guys, they've been written off by
Speaker 2: their families and very very right, so they probably stole
Speaker 2: them from them. They probably who knows what they've done,
Speaker 2: But like any loving family, they're always going to try
Speaker 2: to keep a family together. So as soon as you
Speaker 2: get this person it's an opportunity when he's vulnerable, when
Speaker 2: he's been charged and he's in jail, and he's down
Speaker 2: and out, and he's separated from whatever in the parent's eyes,
Speaker 2: drawing him away from him. Most of the time, they'll
Speaker 2: choose to forgive that person that their child throughout that
Speaker 2: traumatic situation that they're going through, and that's for both
Speaker 2: of their hearts to try and heal. But what happens
Speaker 2: then when someone gets that phone call. You'd imagine the
Speaker 2: old man. I don't know if he can swear on.
Speaker 1: You, as in, fuck him the old man.
Speaker 3: That's it.
Speaker 2: Tell the country get fucked, We're done no more. You
Speaker 2: get me, because we're at that point before. This wasn't
Speaker 2: my situation with my family, but this is what happens
Speaker 2: with a lot of apes that are in jail.
Speaker 1: Interesting take on it, because when you first mentioned I
Speaker 1: thought that makes sense. It's making people accountable and all that.
Speaker 1: But yeah, unless you're been inside, like you'll burn, you
Speaker 1: don't fully appreciate the impact. But I can imagine imagine
Speaker 1: that there would have been people who lost their families.
Speaker 3: That's right because of that.
Speaker 1: So the punishment, but.
Speaker 2: A credit to the jail for trying to help the
Speaker 2: old method of going frow and addikin segro. Either let
Speaker 2: him out or you don't let him out, you set
Speaker 2: him off to another jail. That some behavior is going
Speaker 2: to be repeated. He's probably trying down in tech grow
Speaker 2: now Jason, like he just there's no no punishment. He's
Speaker 2: going to fix someone who has an illness.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: Well, there's a lot of a lot of stuff that
Speaker 1: I learned from the time in Macquarie, and we'll talk
Speaker 1: about that in depth. But you've gone from extremes before
Speaker 1: before we put you in jail. We're going to put
Speaker 1: you in the OMCGS. So what attracted you to becoming
Speaker 1: a gang member?
Speaker 2: Okay, So if we go back to with when I
Speaker 2: was younger and I was knocking around with that lad,
Speaker 2: I said, So he had a Harley anyway, So we
Speaker 2: went one training and we're doing some boxing and whatever
Speaker 2: we're doing. We used to do a lot of boxing
Speaker 2: and weights and the middle of summer and he goes,
Speaker 2: let's go for a ride. Made So we got in
Speaker 2: the middle of when he just pulls up. He's a
Speaker 2: big boy too, He's just pulled up and basically picked
Speaker 2: me up. And put me on the seat and jump
Speaker 2: on the back and said, now right it was And
Speaker 2: I loved partly He's like I had motibikes, but this
Speaker 2: was massive for me, you know. And that was my
Speaker 2: first ride anyways, so that sent me on my path then.
Speaker 2: I think I was probably twelve months later I had
Speaker 2: a bike, so Dad helped me out with that. I
Speaker 2: actually bought it off one of my mates. Was a
Speaker 2: beautiful bike. For the first bike at that age. There
Speaker 2: was a custom soft tail. They come with a front
Speaker 2: cover of lived the ride sent and fold the whole lot.
Speaker 1: You know, you're on the on the not me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, with the girl on it and that, you know,
Speaker 2: and it's just like say, three young fellow then. And
Speaker 2: I was very fit and training and that say used
Speaker 2: to ride around him, put your shorts and a single
Speaker 2: it and he gave.
Speaker 3: You you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: And yeah, I do know what you mean.
Speaker 3: I know I didn't have any intentions of going into it, but.
Speaker 1: I see how that can be intoxicating for a young bloke.
Speaker 1: You're trying to find your way in the path. You
Speaker 1: found the brotherhood and if you're in the bikes and
Speaker 1: the excitement have been on the big Harley.
Speaker 2: Well, i'd say I was in two different clubs, both
Speaker 2: of them over a long long period.
Speaker 1: Are you're right to mention the name of the clubs?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I I was in Lone Wolf and then
Speaker 2: I went to the things now Lone Wolf. There was
Speaker 2: close connection there with our family in a sense. Now,
Speaker 2: my family's not associated with O mcg whatsoever, So I
Speaker 2: just want to make that clear.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: Across the road from home was like a horse adjistment place,
Speaker 2: and mum and dad a very good friends with the
Speaker 2: people that ran it.
Speaker 1: Where was this that in the.
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 2: One of the workers at the place there his step daughter,
Speaker 2: so she was like my first little girl friend. You know,
Speaker 2: we were very young on that, but her dad was
Speaker 2: a thirty year life member of Lone Wolf. So there
Speaker 2: was a close connection there. And then I also had
Speaker 2: through some very close friends like my son's godmother and
Speaker 2: then extended family from there, we're in Lone Wolf as well.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: Okay, so there was an association.
Speaker 3: So that's how that connection happened. Yeah. I got a
Speaker 3: lot of.
Speaker 2: Respect for a lot of guys in that club. That's
Speaker 2: a very old school sort of club. I think it's
Speaker 2: changed a lot now I don't know much about it anymore.
Speaker 2: So it's been many, many years for me since I
Speaker 2: was in that club. I have a lot of respect
Speaker 2: for some of the old guys at it in that club,
Speaker 2: and always will.
Speaker 3: I had a lot of fun in that club.
Speaker 1: Did you become a patch member?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: So I started at Mount Druert and then we split
Speaker 2: and we started the branch out and then we opened
Speaker 2: up at a new planes and just teens, escalators, a
Speaker 2: pretty will ride you basically. But you know, that world
Speaker 2: got caught up. I had a few fallings out, not
Speaker 2: with the club itself, but internally anyway. That ended up
Speaker 2: with my departure from the club. There's a lot of
Speaker 2: things that changed over the years with White Club, you know.
Speaker 1: I saw it from a policing point of view. You
Speaker 1: talk the old school bikies and things that wouldn't go
Speaker 1: down in the old days go down now as gaceful.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it has changed. I heard a lot of old
Speaker 1: timers wings about change from what we set it up for,
Speaker 1: and from a police point of view, I'm just going
Speaker 1: to say it looked like it was more contained, like
Speaker 1: it didn't spill out into the public. It wasn't. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they certainly got around in their colors when they were about,
Speaker 1: but they caused problems with it was internal or with
Speaker 1: another gang, and it didn't branch out as much as
Speaker 1: it seems to these days.
Speaker 3: That's right.
Speaker 2: So now you've got and now when you've got things
Speaker 2: like Raptor and that sort of thing, you know, everyone's
Speaker 2: out there game, you know, and it's just it's not
Speaker 2: a world I want to be a social with.
Speaker 1: You know, how long did you stay with the Lone
Speaker 1: Wolves for.
Speaker 3: About seven years? I think about seven years.
Speaker 1: Probably, Okay, so you're in the in the think of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like there's a lot of good guys there, and
Speaker 2: I think a lot of guys have moved on to
Speaker 2: you know, but there are still a lot of guys
Speaker 2: there that and they're decent guys too, you know, like
Speaker 2: a lot of them are hardworking guys. I mean, there's
Speaker 2: obviously there's all elements in.
Speaker 1: And look, I think people when they're listening to this
Speaker 1: and we're talking about outlaw motorcycle gangs, they call themselves
Speaker 1: out little motorcycle gangs for a reason. Yeah, but I
Speaker 1: think what we're what you're saying here, if I'm interpreting
Speaker 1: it correctly, is that just because they're in the gang
Speaker 1: doesn't make them inherently a bad person.
Speaker 3: That's right.
Speaker 1: They work, they look after their family. Yeah, they get
Speaker 1: up to ship, but not all.
Speaker 3: Of them, not everyone. But that's it.
Speaker 2: But you should have said not everyone before that. Not
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, because not like I'm talking about,
Speaker 2: there are some decent I was into that just love
Speaker 2: to ride, love bike, love the brotherhood, and and.
Speaker 3: You find that more of the old school sort of clubs.
Speaker 2: I think these days, these days, with the law the
Speaker 2: way things are, I think there's a lot. I think
Speaker 2: it's more about you know, what you.
Speaker 1: Can do earning a dollar and not not getting caught
Speaker 1: caught by the cops.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, but like because you think about it, like
Speaker 2: it's a big to go out and become a biking
Speaker 2: now with the knowledge of what is in front of her.
Speaker 3: I get it.
Speaker 2: If someone's been a boy, it's very hard to walk away,
Speaker 2: but they go out and do it now you've either
Speaker 2: got one thing on your mind or in it you
Speaker 2: had read well you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Because I got to say and yeah, I reckon there'd
Speaker 1: be a tough gig. Now with the way that crime
Speaker 1: has investigating, the advantages of the cops have got over
Speaker 1: say so many things. It's not like the old days.
Speaker 1: If you're in the club and just everyone's staunched, no
Speaker 1: one's going to get caught, That's right.
Speaker 3: It seems to change, you know.
Speaker 2: And if you're going to be a club member now
Speaker 2: you've got to expect rat to come through the door
Speaker 2: with machine gun on them. Your kids are going to
Speaker 2: be exposed to it. My kids are exposed so that
Speaker 2: I can't take that back.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, the raptor came in at a time when
Speaker 1: it was it was getting out of hand, and reference
Speaker 1: it to the airport situation, and that was a bit
Speaker 1: of I was in gang squad at the time, so
Speaker 1: I know what was going down, and it was just
Speaker 1: a cross the line.
Speaker 2: And deservingly is what those guys did with me, apart
Speaker 2: from I don't appreciate what happened with my kids, but
Speaker 2: I was out of control, you know. Like I said,
Speaker 2: it was only going to end one way. It's one
Speaker 2: of two ways, and the problem with that is the
Speaker 2: possibility for colutteral damage along the ways. Massive and I'm
Speaker 2: just grateful that I didn't.
Speaker 3: Get to that, you know.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, how did it go that you touched on
Speaker 1: it with the Lone Wolves that you're just it was
Speaker 1: an internal thing and you decided to leave. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: then you went Which gang did you go to?
Speaker 3: Then? So I stayed out for a lots. I had
Speaker 3: no intention of going back.
Speaker 1: All right, So you left Lone Wolves and thought I'm
Speaker 1: out of this life.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I really tried.
Speaker 1: Were you're working or yeah? Yeah, what we're doing?
Speaker 2: So, like I'm a glazier by trade and stonemason by
Speaker 2: trade as well. I've always worked. I mean, there was
Speaker 2: a time just before I went to jail where I
Speaker 2: was running.
Speaker 1: On you picked too hard trades there. Yeah, I've got
Speaker 1: a couple of mates of the stone Masons. Yeah. It's hard,
Speaker 1: hard yacker, isn't it.
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Well I was very good at it, you know, I
Speaker 2: wouldn't like. The only way I go back to it
Speaker 2: is to build my own place or something. So at
Speaker 2: that time, though I was working where it was I working.
Speaker 2: I was working for BDM Constructions, which is a construction
Speaker 2: company at Port mccruorie, but I was doing their banks
Speaker 2: down here in Sydney. So the bank refurbs and that,
Speaker 2: so I do all the aluminium glass so you can
Speaker 2: work and all that. And I was working there and
Speaker 2: I got a I got a message from one of
Speaker 2: the boys at the time was a thin but we
Speaker 2: grew up together and back when I was in the
Speaker 2: Wolf at that time, he was a rebel. And then
Speaker 2: we both moved on, and I thought we'd both moved
Speaker 2: on anyway, he sent me a photo of him in
Speaker 2: a set of things colors, but that still didn't get
Speaker 2: me at that point, you know. I mean I was
Speaker 2: obviously thinking about it, you know. And then just over
Speaker 2: time I ended up going and joining with him, and
Speaker 2: I started as vice president straight away, like when I
Speaker 2: went there, you know, right, and then yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Just were you with a lady at the time or
Speaker 1: may married?
Speaker 3: Yeah? This and this this is.
Speaker 2: The heartbreaking part, you know, because I lost all that
Speaker 2: so like I didn't, like, I've still got the kids
Speaker 2: and we've got a great relationship. But I was with
Speaker 2: my wife at the time, Sky all together for twenty
Speaker 2: five years, married for fourteen or fifteen, and then obviously
Speaker 2: that's done now, you know.
Speaker 1: But how long were you in the Thinks for probably
Speaker 1: about eight years maybe the and like, I'm just trying
Speaker 1: to remember when I actually left, like when I was
Speaker 1: in jail, you know, because that's when I said that's it. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, well you're fully committed because you've got it
Speaker 1: tatooed on the side of your side of your head.
Speaker 3: Yeah, my whole heads all covered, mate, you know.
Speaker 1: But yeah, you were committed and that that was the lifestyle.
Speaker 1: Did you think at that stage when you got wife
Speaker 1: and kids, you've been there, you've done that, you came
Speaker 1: away from it, you're working earning for a living, you
Speaker 1: got the ships with yourself that you fell back into
Speaker 1: that lifestyle.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was just the attraction, the bottom of being
Speaker 1: a citizen what threw you back into.
Speaker 3: Mate, in the club, it's just hard to like, it's
Speaker 3: hard just when you've been there. And I've never been
Speaker 3: one to go and sit on a fence, you know.
Speaker 3: I mean, like if I go there, I'll go there,
Speaker 3: you know, and you fully commit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, And that's where I was at before
Speaker 2: I went to jail.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: It's hard for me to comprehend the two different places
Speaker 2: that my.
Speaker 1: Head was who you were then to who you are now?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and now and then when I think back, and
Speaker 2: this is something that I come to realize when I
Speaker 2: was in the Zupermax. Because I didn't even like myself
Speaker 2: and who I had to become to do what I
Speaker 2: was doing. Then you know, I didn't like that person.
Speaker 2: Who's going to like me?
Speaker 3: So?
Speaker 1: What was the what was the crime that got you
Speaker 1: the six years? What happened there? I think in the paper, the.
Speaker 3: Papers, the papers have had a good crack them.
Speaker 1: They well, yeah, okay, this is I've only pulled out
Speaker 1: pulled out an extract of it. But one of the
Speaker 1: country's most soon you think bikes, who has a club's
Speaker 1: name tattooed on the side of his skull, is behind
Speaker 1: bars and kidnapping, weapons and drug charges. And the thirty
Speaker 1: nine year old was charged with a string of offenses
Speaker 1: including kidnapping in company, causing reckless grievous bodily harm, intimidating
Speaker 1: a witness, and dealing drugs. That is that what you
Speaker 1: went down for?
Speaker 3: Not really yep, they make them.
Speaker 2: They throw whatever they can throw into so they've taken
Speaker 2: the tain. Wasn't even wasn't even take in detain And
Speaker 2: I wasn't even there right say, what happened? And it
Speaker 2: got downgraded to it got down and graded to intimidation.
Speaker 1: Okay, so what what was what was the game with it?
Speaker 2: So this was this was a new member that had
Speaker 2: come in and done some wrong stuff whatever, and I
Speaker 2: said to the boys go and get him bringing back
Speaker 2: the club house.
Speaker 1: What position were you in at the time in the
Speaker 1: in the club, I was a national national president.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so there was five of us at the
Speaker 2: time that was that that had that ranking tiation. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but I also still had a club outse at portball Quarrie,
Speaker 2: and I was trying I was trying to train a
Speaker 2: few peckle up to like like I think I've referred
Speaker 2: to being a babysitter at different times. Well, I was
Speaker 2: that term in the club at different times, you.
Speaker 1: Know, through the finishing school for biking.
Speaker 3: And so you can imagine this is a legacy.
Speaker 2: So when I went so just to give the viewers
Speaker 2: and that an understanding, I went from Windsor where I
Speaker 2: was a vice president, and then I went to Port
Speaker 2: McCrorie on my own and set up as I think
Speaker 2: now that's a known bandido team.
Speaker 1: I was going to say that band I've had some
Speaker 1: dealings with the bandidos up there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and throughout that there, and we built we
Speaker 2: built there, so you could imagine.
Speaker 1: Pretty small town for.
Speaker 2: You know what I mean, and for me when I
Speaker 2: went there and I made it known I was there, yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, but I wasn't disrespectful about it, not until
Speaker 2: not until other things were disrespected. But we always maintained
Speaker 2: a decent level of a relationship, you know. But yeah,
Speaker 2: so that drew up there and then obviously for me
Speaker 2: to try and get someone to take take it over, yeah,
Speaker 2: it just didn't happen. So I was mate, I left
Speaker 2: myself short. I was running around all over the place.
Speaker 2: This is where you know, this is why I don't
Speaker 2: have a wife anymore.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: She It's always hard when you're talking about your personal life,
Speaker 1: but just to put in perspective, you've been together for
Speaker 1: what twenty five years, did you say? Yeah?
Speaker 3: And she was a beautiful life mate, So she was.
Speaker 1: Rock solid relationship. And the chaos that was coming from
Speaker 1: you and your role in the FINX yeah, just enough
Speaker 1: is enough?
Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty much, you know, and like and the things
Speaker 2: that come along with it. You know, she was very
Speaker 2: good to me, you know, like it was a big mistake,
Speaker 2: big mistake.
Speaker 3: On my behalt on behalf.
Speaker 2: But what happens is sometimes things go too far. You
Speaker 2: can't you can't go back to it, you know. But
Speaker 2: I'll always love it and always be there for you know.
Speaker 1: So with the I'm only going off the what was
Speaker 1: reported in the media that raptor rated your home and
Speaker 1: there was something that was posted on TV about that
Speaker 1: made made the news, and these articles flowed on what
Speaker 1: did you end up going down?
Speaker 3: That's right?
Speaker 2: Sorry, yeah, So so basically my charges were GBH with intent.
Speaker 1: And that's on the fellow member of the club.
Speaker 2: Well, this was a difference. This was a different thing altogether.
Speaker 2: It was a club related thing. All of it was
Speaker 2: basically related, you know. So I copped the GBH with
Speaker 2: intent and I copped that take and detained, but they
Speaker 2: dropped it down to intimidation. I got done with a
Speaker 2: certain amount of drugs.
Speaker 1: And without giving the chips on how bikes should avoid
Speaker 1: avoid the cops. But yeah, you put yourself in a gang,
Speaker 1: so yeah, you're associated with that person. That person, it's
Speaker 1: not not hard to follow the follow the path. And
Speaker 1: I think and I've heard a lot of guys in
Speaker 1: your position that they've been brought down by association. But again,
Speaker 1: I suppose that's a price you pay.
Speaker 3: Definitely, definitely, you know.
Speaker 2: I mean but even like even a lot of think
Speaker 2: guys are really good guys, you know, yeah, and there
Speaker 2: is a massive part of them that have families and
Speaker 2: work too, And it's like and sometimes you can't control
Speaker 2: the way things move. You might start with a chap
Speaker 2: there and it might be like this, but over time
Speaker 2: it winds up ends up here and wearing the colors
Speaker 2: like it just happens, you know, But and it's hard
Speaker 2: to sort.
Speaker 3: Of it's hard to sort of separated.
Speaker 1: I guess, like, well, is it is it fair to
Speaker 1: say that's the risk your take when you when you
Speaker 1: join again? Seeing that Okay, well it's basically, yeah, we're
Speaker 1: in this together. I've got your back. Yeah, and you
Speaker 1: could have some drop kick that's caused problems, but you've
Speaker 1: got to back back him up because he's a gang member.
Speaker 1: That type of situation.
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can give you an example of where you
Speaker 2: can find I guess the people that make the experience bad.
Speaker 2: Because when I went to jail, all the rubbish that
Speaker 2: I had to put up with from internal that was
Speaker 2: from us in there was just disgusting, you know.
Speaker 1: Okay, so that's because you you've gone in as a member. Yeah,
Speaker 1: another member has done it inside. Well that that comes
Speaker 1: down on you too.
Speaker 3: One hundred.
Speaker 2: Like when I first got to jail, like we were
Speaker 2: involved in a war, like and we're at Goldwen, this
Speaker 2: is not this is before they've I think they've changed
Speaker 2: it now to a protection jail, you know. Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: a fight for survival.
Speaker 1: Golvin always had the reputation of folks that have been
Speaker 1: in there, and I saw it from the outside as
Speaker 1: a tough prison. So that the rest we're talking about
Speaker 1: that you've got your six years that was yeah, is
Speaker 1: that when raptor got you? And the kids are saying it,
Speaker 1: How old were the kids at the time.
Speaker 2: And well, probably about eleven and twelve, aren't. Yeah, that's
Speaker 2: too young, you know. Yeah, but they're doing very well.
Speaker 2: Like my son is an absolute champion. My daughter she's gorgeous.
Speaker 2: Like my son's working. She had a great job. My
Speaker 2: daughter she's about to go to UNI. She had a
Speaker 2: great job as well. Like I couldn't be happier, you know,
Speaker 2: like as far as that goes, But you know, I'm
Speaker 2: just so happy to be back in their lives and yeah.
Speaker 1: Well that's and you know, we'll talk about what prison
Speaker 1: is and what the punishment is, but yeah, that's one
Speaker 1: thing that you've taken away from your family and that's
Speaker 1: that's where Yeah, I know when I spent time in Macquarie,
Speaker 1: that was the thing that most people were saying. Punishment
Speaker 1: is we're being taken away from our family now not winging,
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, I think you've owned the fact that
Speaker 1: you're out of control and end up getting sentenced. But yeah,
Speaker 1: it's that impact that has on your family that can
Speaker 1: carry pretty heavy on the shoulders.
Speaker 3: I think it's more that way than the other.
Speaker 1: So when you when you got arrested, take it. You
Speaker 1: didn't get bail.
Speaker 2: So basically when I got arrested, I went straight into
Speaker 2: the holding cells at Port Macquarie.
Speaker 3: And I guess there was.
Speaker 2: Like with the we detect you for the thing that
Speaker 2: was I guess there was like a respect leable there
Speaker 2: or some sort, because they never come I mean you
Speaker 2: can and you could reference this too. They never even
Speaker 2: come up and offered me a dealers because they knew
Speaker 2: the situation.
Speaker 3: You know. Yeah, I was hard at the.
Speaker 2: Time and it was just the road straight out of
Speaker 2: Fort Marcory Police Station. Probably couldn't have happened any quicker,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, So they didn't wuck around
Speaker 2: with me. And I went from there to Newcastle Holding Cells.
Speaker 2: I don't know how long I was there for it
Speaker 2: sort of underground to lose concept at the time, and
Speaker 2: then I went through Silk Water and I had to
Speaker 2: go through and basically get processed. And I was there
Speaker 2: for about two weeks in the segro with other think
Speaker 2: boys and other club members that were along the roads
Speaker 2: in the segregation, you know, and then I headed to mccorie,
Speaker 2: I mean to Goldwyn, but at the time I knew
Speaker 2: so there was one of the boys there that was
Speaker 2: trying to cause big dramas and on knew there was
Speaker 2: an issue straight away.
Speaker 1: So when you hit the yard, it was already on.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's like a necessary you know.
Speaker 2: I don't know how to explain it for viewers to understand,
Speaker 2: but anyway, jail politics are very.
Speaker 1: Is it fair to say that you've got to align
Speaker 1: yourself with your crew? Okay, you have gone in there
Speaker 1: a think was that was your crew? And it's also
Speaker 1: there's a race divide to that that comes into play
Speaker 1: as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that was already in place. And the worst
Speaker 2: part about the race the vide was we had this
Speaker 2: race with us too.
Speaker 1: That gets complicated, isn't the lines.
Speaker 3: Of blurred then around this race. It's just like it
Speaker 3: was just so wrong.
Speaker 2: But we did sort it out right, and through the
Speaker 2: means of sorting it out in a gle environment. I'm
Speaker 2: gonna try and word this so that doesn't come across one.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Wrong, but you're in it's a jungle, and it's a
Speaker 2: very very volatile area, right, and to resolve things sometimes
Speaker 2: you have to elevate things strategically, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2: I don't really know how else to explain it.
Speaker 1: I don't want you to give away anything that happened
Speaker 1: in prison, but my take on it from what you're saying,
Speaker 1: is that if something gets someone gets disrespected, you're going
Speaker 1: to get respect back, and so you might escalate it.
Speaker 1: In some if someone was punched in the yard, well
Speaker 1: it might be retribution might be heavier than the punch
Speaker 1: coming back.
Speaker 3: Yeah it was.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, so let's just say that that whatever that
Speaker 2: incident was landed me in the supermax all right. Now
Speaker 2: the next now it's nothing there's nothing to be locked
Speaker 2: in for five days at Alburn, get let out in
Speaker 2: the yard for two minutes, someone gets stabbed in your
Speaker 2: back inside for another six days. Yeah, that's just the
Speaker 2: way it works, being part of whatever you've heard of it.
Speaker 2: You can still break the cycle to get and locked
Speaker 2: in by choosing to go to work. Well, I went
Speaker 2: to work this day and they just came down and
Speaker 2: gabb me and took me up in the cells. And
Speaker 2: the governor, who was bolder at the time, come through
Speaker 2: and just basically said, I'm throwing you in the supermacs
Speaker 2: and you're going to spend the rest of your jail
Speaker 2: on the supermacs. And I didn't even give me a
Speaker 2: chance to explame why.
Speaker 1: And that's from an incident happened in the yard.
Speaker 2: But I was being hard done by so I a
Speaker 2: t at the time. Which are the squad the guys
Speaker 2: that are running around trying to resolve what Some of
Speaker 2: these guys had a level of respect for me. It's
Speaker 2: a crazy little world. Yeah. One of them that walked
Speaker 2: me down, he was one of the heads of the squad.
Speaker 2: He walking down. There's a few of them that walking
Speaker 2: down to the supermacs. So the super making.
Speaker 3: It's a it's a secure jail inside of jail.
Speaker 1: I've been there. Describe it because the first time I
Speaker 1: went there, I just yeah, literally, how you described the
Speaker 1: jail within the jail, Just explain what happens.
Speaker 2: Well, the Hollywood movie wouldn't break you out of there, Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, but anyway, and you get lost.
Speaker 1: It's just what I'd described from my memory of it,
Speaker 1: and you'll have a more detailed memory. But the circular buildings,
Speaker 1: the pod you walk, you go through the security, you're
Speaker 1: getting the Golden Prison, then you go through the security
Speaker 1: to get into super Max, and then you're in super Max,
Speaker 1: and that from my memory, it was circular, and you're
Speaker 1: walking around and the perspect screens. I remember seeing Ivan
Speaker 1: Malatt strutting his stuff and patrolling like a caged animal,
Speaker 1: just staring at things, going back, the terrorists, gang members,
Speaker 1: all sorts of people. Yeah, so sort of that's graduation
Speaker 1: school from prison, isn't it. The rest of the prison
Speaker 1: system doesn't handle you, and then you end up in
Speaker 1: super Max. Yeah, tell us about the day to day
Speaker 1: life in there, because one thing that just sort of
Speaker 1: dulled your senses. It was so repetitive and so boring.
Speaker 1: That's the sense that I got that everyone was just
Speaker 1: going stir crazy.
Speaker 3: I believe that things that changed slightly there.
Speaker 2: Now when I was there, they wouldn't let the official
Speaker 2: visitor down there. I think the official visitor can go
Speaker 2: down there, and I think I think they've really cleaned
Speaker 2: it up.
Speaker 1: When you say official visitor, that's some independent person coming
Speaker 1: into have a look, that's.
Speaker 2: Right, and speak to the inmates. You get so the
Speaker 2: inmates then express their concern that.
Speaker 1: Was that was a safeguard the ship wasn't going down.
Speaker 3: But yeah, they weren't.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I'll just give you an example when I
Speaker 2: got when I went in there, so when I was
Speaker 2: at the top, they stripped me down naked, and they
Speaker 2: came and gave me a pair of underpants, a pair
Speaker 2: of track pants, a pair of socks, a shirt, and
Speaker 2: a jumper. I didn't even have shoes, so I had
Speaker 2: so I would go into the supermax and I'm like,
Speaker 2: when you go to any jail, you get issued greens.
Speaker 2: You get issued your clothes if you don't have them
Speaker 2: in your property because you bought them or whatever. I
Speaker 2: go in there and I expect to get more greens. Anyways,
Speaker 2: nothing comes. I'll give them one blanket, a sheet. I
Speaker 2: had no pillow and one tower. The room was moldy.
Speaker 2: I was in Unit seven, just really dirty, old dinger.
Speaker 2: You wouldn't put your dog in there. And I kept
Speaker 2: asking for an explanation while was there, because I was
Speaker 2: there without charge. No charge is nothing, not even an explanation.
Speaker 2: I didn't get one for three months. You lose all
Speaker 2: concept at the time, from the first point when I
Speaker 2: got in now I was looking for fourteen days without
Speaker 2: to open it in a back cage, just to get
Speaker 2: a bit of air. No book, no pen, no paper,
Speaker 2: no books, nothing at that point, if I had something
Speaker 2: to kill myself with, I probably would have because I
Speaker 2: didn't know what was going on. They wouldn't tell me
Speaker 2: while I was there. They wouldn't give me anything. When
Speaker 2: I go for a phone call, five of them come
Speaker 2: in and make me get at the back. I'd have
Speaker 2: to put my legs behind me, back, my hands beyond
Speaker 2: my head. They cuffed me and dragged me out to
Speaker 2: the phone, cuffed me to the phone, let me make
Speaker 2: the call, and then hang up with me and drave
Speaker 2: me back in. You know, just trying to break it,
Speaker 2: you know, and at this point I was breaking because
Speaker 2: I didn't know what was going on there.
Speaker 3: It was either.
Speaker 2: Like, honestly, the only way I was thinking about trying
Speaker 2: to hurt someone real bad, you know, That's how I
Speaker 2: was thinking.
Speaker 3: I don't know how I'm going to get out of
Speaker 3: this situation.
Speaker 2: Even when they keep your sports time, they push out
Speaker 2: a concrete yard. This is for a reason, mind you,
Speaker 2: It's there for a reason.
Speaker 3: This, you know.
Speaker 2: Like and although I was in for my crimes and
Speaker 2: everything that I was in there, I don't I believe
Speaker 2: that at this point here, I wasn't treated fairly at
Speaker 2: the time what I was trying to do at the
Speaker 2: top of the jails, like say, any jail only runs
Speaker 2: through through certain inmates control actions, right, I was doing
Speaker 2: most of the opposite up the top. Knew what I
Speaker 2: was doing. I was doing for a reason, but I believed,
Speaker 2: but none of them would step up for it. Right
Speaker 2: that bold Dart, the government that put me on he
Speaker 2: went on and leave after he put me in there.
Speaker 2: No one, this is what I found out later, No
Speaker 2: one was willing to sign me off on having me released.
Speaker 1: Because I'm against the bosses.
Speaker 2: Well, the order come from above to tell him to
Speaker 2: do something about what was going on with the walls at.
Speaker 1: The place because it was known as the graveyard Golden Prison.
Speaker 3: May I give you an example.
Speaker 2: You get there, if you're a normal inmate, then you're
Speaker 2: aligned with anyone and you get there, they're probably already
Speaker 2: got there and they got a blade. All right, Now
Speaker 2: I'm going out into that yard. I'd never take a
Speaker 2: knife or a fight. I'll hold my hands up any
Speaker 2: day of the week. I need a knife to do it.
Speaker 2: But what am I going to do when someone's got one.
Speaker 2: I'm not talking a knife Golden's fall, but they're walking
Speaker 2: around with samurai swords, you know what I mean. One
Speaker 2: of the first ones I peeled off was from a
Speaker 2: big lump of steel that had rusted. And it was
Speaker 2: like that night when I went back and I was
Speaker 2: thinking about what happened to forty five actually end up
Speaker 2: using someone to stay in jail forever. So I had
Speaker 2: to get rid of that and just try and find
Speaker 2: something that I could have to protect myself in some
Speaker 2: other means. Now, like I said, I don't carry knives,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? But what do you do
Speaker 2: when there's a fair changing to get stabbed in the
Speaker 2: yard that day if if you don't, if you got
Speaker 2: one that said deterrent for that person to stay away
Speaker 2: from me.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: Now you should hear the sounds hitting the floor whenever
Speaker 2: the squad run into the yard in Gulben. It's like
Speaker 2: someone frow and change on the ground. It's all the
Speaker 2: lights hitting the floor, you know what I mean. People
Speaker 2: got magazines around their stomachs.
Speaker 3: You know what I mean.
Speaker 2: Like it's just it's a jungleman, you know, and it's
Speaker 2: a fight for survival every day. But we're human beings,
Speaker 2: so we either it's the fight or flight. We're either
Speaker 2: at dat. I used to spend our grandfathers will be
Speaker 2: rolling over in their graves watching us conduct ourselves in prison.
Speaker 2: Now you know what I mean. Like there's a few
Speaker 2: that will stand up for themselves and for us this
Speaker 2: whereas all the other races I support each other.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: I used to spend day, like every day trying to
Speaker 2: convince some young feller just you're not involved in anything
Speaker 2: that's going on in you. If you have any issues,
Speaker 2: come and see if but stay away like and then
Speaker 2: I'd tell them walk out of the visits, to go
Speaker 2: under the walk of shame.
Speaker 3: Back to the boneyard and what you're doing. They use
Speaker 3: it too much, you know, and.
Speaker 2: It's like, but what they don't realize Boniard's not going
Speaker 2: to keep you safe.
Speaker 1: So this when you say boneyard, explained that, I know
Speaker 1: what you mean, but explain that to pedophiles. Okay, in
Speaker 1: the protection within the prison from the regular.
Speaker 3: Or dogs who have rolled on people.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Now you've got these kids going into a place with
Speaker 2: rapists and that are they're going to get raped in there.
Speaker 2: I understand you're in a place that you're not comfortable in,
Speaker 2: but you're not going to get I'll give you. I
Speaker 2: gave you my word, and other boys in the yard
Speaker 2: look after you. Just don't get involved in drugs, right easy? No,
Speaker 2: who knows what app until them. Now you know, I've
Speaker 2: heard stories, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: When they've gone in there, they're marked forever, and that's right.
Speaker 1: Someone will eventually get to them.
Speaker 2: And then when they come back to the prison, that's
Speaker 2: where they're going back to there because I've already been there.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, they can't can't walk away from that.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So with super max, were you're allowed to associate with
Speaker 1: other other prisoners.
Speaker 2: Or so they run it on a level system, so
Speaker 2: I'm not know if that's how they still do it,
Speaker 2: but that's how they were doing it. So it goes
Speaker 2: from not three to three and you go through the
Speaker 2: processes all the way on the steps, and that's when
Speaker 2: you start to get stuff.
Speaker 3: So obviously I.
Speaker 2: Don't even think I'm I don't even think I hit
Speaker 2: the board because I had nothing. I did have a thing,
Speaker 2: you know, but you know I did humble me to
Speaker 2: see some of the other guys in there. There's one
Speaker 2: door there in particular. I won't meant you mentioned his name,
Speaker 2: but he's happy to choose to have nothing. If they
Speaker 2: want to feel like they can say bullying through certain means,
Speaker 2: he'll he'll he'll be happy just to.
Speaker 3: Not have any not even a meal, you get me.
Speaker 1: And that's his way, that's his way of fighting back.
Speaker 3: And at one point there when I was there, the
Speaker 3: big boss come down the scene and caught him a
Speaker 3: stubborn prick and give him his way for it.
Speaker 1: All right, Yeah, you know, so different ways of fighting
Speaker 1: fighting this. Yes, how do you stay sane in that environment?
Speaker 3: You don't how long.
Speaker 1: Were you in super max?
Speaker 3: For four months?
Speaker 1: And what's it what's it doing to your head? You
Speaker 1: talk that you got to the point where you wanted
Speaker 1: to hurt someone or even hurt yourself. Yeah, finish your life.
Speaker 3: I paint a picture I don't like.
Speaker 2: I don't I don't sleep properly, like I suffer from
Speaker 2: night terrors. But these days they go because I just
Speaker 2: wake up.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: When I was in the Supermax, I was this night terror,
Speaker 2: utter night terror. It could be who knows what time.
Speaker 3: You don't know. You've got no window, you don't know
Speaker 3: what time it is.
Speaker 2: There's a little strip out on the side of the thing,
Speaker 2: and if you're laying in your bed, you can't see
Speaker 2: it anyway. Now, one night, whether it was night or not,
Speaker 2: I had this dream, Like I said, I don't dream
Speaker 2: unless they're wrong, you know, And it was so surreal.
Speaker 2: I was in the shower at mum and Dad's old house,
Speaker 2: having a shower, and I was so grateful that I
Speaker 2: was back home. I was kind lay in my bed.
Speaker 2: I was going to go and give me Mama hug.
Speaker 2: I was going to see me kids, and everything was great.
Speaker 2: And I remember waking up and looking at this dirty
Speaker 2: wall and then looking around. I didn't even know what
Speaker 2: time it was and it was like it like, this
Speaker 2: is my life. Who knows what's happening with my life?
Speaker 2: Like I I hadn't been a sentence to anything at
Speaker 2: this point, you know, and I was still diging, trying
Speaker 2: to create stuff, so you could imagine what's going on
Speaker 2: up here. Not so much paranoid, you're just creating stories. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, if it wasn't for the support of the
Speaker 2: boys down there, that have could that have been through it?
Speaker 2: You know, over time and you can yell out to
Speaker 2: each other, and it's a massive community going on down there,
Speaker 2: you know, people yelling out to.
Speaker 3: Each other like and you know, and that's support.
Speaker 2: I think without that, I think most of the boys
Speaker 2: would break down there.
Speaker 1: So what what year are we talking that you're in
Speaker 1: in supermax twenty eighteen?
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, all right, so that's when they so they
Speaker 2: did so they built the new MPU, which is the
Speaker 2: segregation unit at Gulben, and they had forty beds. There
Speaker 2: were sixty of us in the super max, so twenty
Speaker 2: of us had to go around the state. I landed
Speaker 2: at Quarie just in segregation and that was it.
Speaker 1: So all right, Well, I think we might might take
Speaker 1: a break here. Yeah, when we get back, we'll get
Speaker 1: you out of the super max. Yeah, you didn't escape
Speaker 1: from supermax. I don't think has anyone escaped from SUPERMX?
Speaker 3: No, mate, I don't think anyone ever will.
Speaker 1: I know they said that about Engle and Russell Cox
Speaker 1: managed to get his way out.
Speaker 3: Legendary. That is legendary.
Speaker 1: I appreciate your openness about it, giving us an insight
Speaker 1: into what it's like in prison. We'll call the traditional
Speaker 1: prisons and as in gouldin the old school prisons. When
Speaker 1: we get back for part two, we're going to talk
Speaker 1: about your experiences in the Macquarie Correctional Center, and I
Speaker 1: think it's good to get a sense of what it's
Speaker 1: like in the traditional prison. And then we'll take you
Speaker 1: into the other prison and talk about how you managed
Speaker 1: to turn your life around and what inspired you to
Speaker 1: turn your life around, and we might even delve into
Speaker 1: summer your artwork that you're brought in, which is quite impressive.
Speaker 3: You get to the good.
Speaker 1: Stuff, Okay, good say we better get people. Make sure
Speaker 1: you listen to part two, because we turn this flake's
Speaker 1: life around, or he turns.
Speaker 3: His life around.
Speaker 1: Definitely stuff, Okay, good stuff, we'll be back soon.
Speaker 3: Thanks nine