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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life. The average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes in the contact with crime is

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Speaker 1: left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into

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Speaker 1: this world. I first crossed paths with today's guest, Adam Smith,

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Speaker 1: in a maximum security prison. We didn't get off to

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Speaker 1: a good start. He was warning other inmates there would

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Speaker 1: be consequences if they were soon associating with me. But

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Speaker 1: we've moved past that tense first meeting. Today we sat

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Speaker 1: down and had a chat. We talked about what took

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Speaker 1: place in that prison, his life as a member of

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Speaker 1: an outlaw motorcycle gang, and he's time in gold and

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Speaker 1: supermax prison, which is a violent place where loyalties were

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Speaker 1: based on gang affiliation and race, and how through the

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Speaker 1: stroke of good luck and the foresight of some corrective

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Speaker 1: services officers he managed to turn his life around. I

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Speaker 1: think Adam has an important message. Let's have a listen

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Speaker 1: to what he has to say. Adam, thanks for coming

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Speaker 1: on my catch killers that problem going. When I walked

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Speaker 1: into your prison dorm a year or so ago and

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Speaker 1: there was twenty five maximum security prisoners there snarling at me,

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Speaker 1: and I didn't think we'd be sitting down this time

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Speaker 1: in a studio having a chat.

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Speaker 2: No, I wouldn't think so, because I would have thought

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Speaker 2: that the time. But you didn't realize this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, yeah it was. I got to say. When

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Speaker 1: I've walked in there, I thought, yeah, this isn't a

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Speaker 1: good idea, probably not the smartest, smartest thing. I wasn't

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Speaker 1: sure if I was going to walk out of there.

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Speaker 2: Actually, I could imagine it would have been a little

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Speaker 2: intimidating for econe from your background to there.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, well I didn't expect an ex high profile

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Speaker 1: cop to be too popular in that environment. Look, we

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Speaker 1: probably should explain what I was doing there, because I

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Speaker 1: think it's interesting. I'd like to get your take on it,

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Speaker 1: the thoughts from your perspective how it came about. Corrective

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Speaker 1: Services invited me into the prison to have a look

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Speaker 1: at a new way they were doing a prison system,

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Speaker 1: Macquarie Correctional Center, maximum security prison. On paper, it seemed

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Speaker 1: like a good idea. I thought, Yeah, that's cool. We'll

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Speaker 1: go in and hang out with the inmates and find

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Speaker 1: out what they think of this new system. Probably didn't

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Speaker 1: think it too much, and when we walked into your

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Speaker 1: dorm unannounced, I thought I fucked up here because there

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Speaker 1: was groups of prisoners just forming little groups, talking and

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Speaker 1: making it very clear what they thought of me. And

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Speaker 1: I wasn't too popular in there. I didn't want to

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Speaker 1: sort of turn around and run out. That wouldn't have

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Speaker 1: been a good look, so I tried to play it

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Speaker 1: cool and just hold my ground a little bit. I

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Speaker 1: spoke to some of the some of the prisoners in there,

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Speaker 1: but I've got a sense it wasn't very well appreciated,

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Speaker 1: and it was very clear what people wanted to do

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Speaker 1: to me in looks and gestures. So I made after

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Speaker 1: a short discussion with a few of the inmates made

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Speaker 1: a tactical retreat from there. With my dignity intact, I

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Speaker 1: didn't run out. But you're in there. You're in there

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Speaker 1: at the time, what was going through your mind? Because

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Speaker 1: I know I just rocked up there unannounced and people

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Speaker 1: recognize me pretty quickly.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So from my point of view, I knew it

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Speaker 2: was a good thing. There was an opportunity to show

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Speaker 2: off the new model of correct need services, I guess,

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Speaker 2: which has been a battle and it will be an

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Speaker 2: ongoing battle because there's the hard line that that is

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Speaker 2: still convinced that if you're a prisoner, you should just

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Speaker 2: be locking a cell and that's it. Is we going

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Speaker 2: to remember that our country was built off the back

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Speaker 2: of convicts. There's always going to be a jail system.

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Speaker 2: But if we can have guys that go through whatever

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Speaker 2: they go through in life. On let's face that a

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Speaker 2: lot of people go for a lot of stuff in

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Speaker 2: life that leads them down these paths. You know, if

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Speaker 2: we can really abilitate these people, light myself and get

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Speaker 2: them back out, and you'll probably find that most of

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Speaker 2: them have something to prove and they're going to be

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Speaker 2: a productive member of society.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think that's why corrective services want to be

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Speaker 1: in there. And I was trying to sell the position

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Speaker 1: to you guys, and you were one of the inmates

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Speaker 1: that were telling people not to not to talk to me.

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Speaker 1: That's right, and because you thought some heat would come

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Speaker 1: down anyone that's seen associating with me. But eventually we

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Speaker 1: sort of got the message across that. You know, if

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Speaker 1: I go in there as the next cop, and I'm

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Speaker 1: saying I reckon this works, carry it gives you guys

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Speaker 1: a platform can explain what's going on.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 2: So essentially what's happened in this new model of jail

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Speaker 2: as it goes, there's people that people look up to

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Speaker 2: in jail. So there's a fair few of us essentially

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Speaker 2: that were just babyshitters. Now this was I guess for

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Speaker 2: us to keep this model of jail. We do this

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Speaker 2: so that all the benefits that come along with having it.

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Speaker 2: So I did an education in there. I come from

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Speaker 2: probably the darkest space that you come from on Australian

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Speaker 2: soil to go to a place where I shined.

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Speaker 1: How long how long had you done in prison or

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Speaker 1: how long have you done in prison?

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Speaker 2: So just over six years in total. So basically the

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Speaker 2: I only ever did small amounts before this was a

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Speaker 2: six year sentence.

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Speaker 3: So it was a six or the nine.

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Speaker 1: Okay, And we're going to talk about that now, how

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Speaker 1: your life got got to that point. But you went

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Speaker 1: from extremes and I want to break it down the

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Speaker 1: two prison experiences you had from gold and Supermax, which

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Speaker 1: I've been in that prison as well, and I want

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Speaker 1: to talk about that because that's that's a heavy, heavy

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Speaker 1: scene there, and you've gone to Mcquarie Correctional Center. But

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Speaker 1: the fact is that Macquarie there's still maximum security prisoners. Like,

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Speaker 1: it's not all the soft people in prison. There's some.

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Speaker 1: I recognized a lot of the faces and had dealings

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Speaker 1: with some of the people in there.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So, like I said, so before I went there,

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Speaker 2: there was never meant to be any gang members. But

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Speaker 2: that was that was off the table. That story we'll

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Speaker 2: get into as we go along. I guess we'll start

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Speaker 2: from when I come into classy this time, or start.

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Speaker 1: Let's let's wind it back a bit, because you weren't

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Speaker 1: born in jail, I don't think, so, tell us about

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Speaker 1: your childhood and your upbringing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay.

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Speaker 2: So I come from a very good family and a

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Speaker 2: beautiful mom and dad, brothers, sister, extended family. That's perfect,

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Speaker 2: you know. But unfortunately, when I was younger, I suffered

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Speaker 2: through some traumatic situations that led me down a path, right,

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Speaker 2: which had nothing to do with my family.

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Speaker 1: Now, just on that issue, because we spoke about that

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Speaker 1: the other day when we're having a chat and you said,

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Speaker 1: you don't want to go into details, but something that

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Speaker 1: happened to you when you're a young teenager that's right

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Speaker 1: on a school camp, and you just don't want to

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Speaker 1: break break it down, but that had a profound effect on.

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Speaker 3: You, that's right.

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Speaker 2: That led me down a path that I really didn't

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Speaker 2: know how to get out of in a sense, you know,

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Speaker 2: but I did try, like throughout those younger years, you know,

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Speaker 2: like and there were other things that were happening like

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Speaker 2: around me that sort of you know, intensified what was

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Speaker 2: happening with me from that experience, And there were so

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Speaker 2: many times where I sort of tried to tell my mum,

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Speaker 2: but I couldn't really bring myself to do it, you know,

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Speaker 2: because I can't deal with that sort of thing, you know.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, that led me into a path that I

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Speaker 2: was just started to get into trouble, you know.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so up until early childhood, you said, a good family.

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Speaker 1: What theyre did you grow up in?

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Speaker 3: Okay?

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Speaker 2: So I was at West Bimble until about six years old,

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Speaker 2: and then we moved to the Hawksbury. So I went

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Speaker 2: to Pittown Primary School and then I signed up to

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Speaker 2: go to Winsor High School. I didn't really attend too much,

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Speaker 2: but I used to go to music and sport and

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Speaker 2: that's probably you had hit.

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Speaker 1: So you're a student on paper, but you didn't spend

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Speaker 1: much time there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, I did manage to I guess touch the hearts

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Speaker 2: of some of the teachers, isn't that because so many

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Speaker 2: people did.

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Speaker 3: Try for me.

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Speaker 2: I guess that's one of my regrets that throughout that

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Speaker 2: time I did let so many people down, you know,

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Speaker 2: because a lot of people did try for me.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think it says a bit about yourself the

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Speaker 1: fact that you recognize the fact that, yeah, there were

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Speaker 1: people trying to try to help you, and you didn't

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Speaker 1: take up take up the office.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, How old were you when you first start going

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Speaker 1: off the rails and getting into trouble and getting.

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Speaker 3: Up the ship.

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Speaker 2: I think it was immediately from that point on I

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Speaker 2: really struggled with identity. Yeah, from that point on, I

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Speaker 2: started to get into a lot of trouble, you know,

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Speaker 2: Like I think it was probably that age I got

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Speaker 2: brought home.

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Speaker 3: By the police.

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Speaker 1: You know, what was that for the first time.

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Speaker 2: I think it was a stolen pushbike or something like that. Actually, no,

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Speaker 2: it was a stolen pushbike, and it was just a

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Speaker 2: silly situation. I didn't even steal the pushbike. But I

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Speaker 2: think this come back to where I come from, with

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Speaker 2: a good nature that led me into a path and

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Speaker 2: I tried to help at the time, and I ended

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Speaker 2: up in the cop car getting taken ot you know.

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Speaker 2: And then I guess trying and explain that to your parents,

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Speaker 2: but the cops brought your home, you know, and at

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Speaker 2: that point I started to go off the rail. So

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Speaker 2: there was trust already gone, you know.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so first experience being brought brought home by the cops,

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Speaker 1: there was still a point to turn your life around.

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Speaker 1: But you hanging out with the wrong crowd or what

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Speaker 1: I get.

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Speaker 2: I guess there's always that, you know, But what ended

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Speaker 2: up happening essentially because I was the wrong crowd.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well that's that's being honest.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean not so much through that time frame,

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Speaker 2: but definitely before I went to prison, there's only two

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Speaker 2: ways that my life was going to end.

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Speaker 1: Then did you I tried to get a sceint at

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Speaker 1: that age, did you did the thought of going to

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Speaker 1: prison scare you? Did you think that was just?

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Speaker 3: Or did you when when I went to prison.

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Speaker 1: Before, as you were a kid, like the consequences, because

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Speaker 1: I'm sure cops would have said to you as they're

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Speaker 1: bringing you home, you're going to end up in prison,

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Speaker 1: You're going to throw your life away and all that.

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Speaker 1: Does that resonate with you when that said to you

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Speaker 1: at that age when you're going on that path.

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Speaker 3: Not so much. So I got very lucky.

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Speaker 2: I actually got sentenced to six months on the bottom

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Speaker 2: from Windsor Courthouse and I ended up in the cells.

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Speaker 2: And when I was in the cells, there's all these

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Speaker 2: boys from high school that come in the greens from

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Speaker 2: Silver Order and this is my first real experience inside.

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Speaker 1: How old were you then, I'd say I would.

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Speaker 2: Have been eighteen. I would have been just saden because

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Speaker 2: I would have been on to prison, you know. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: And so one of them turned up. One of them

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Speaker 2: had a talio and is shoe. The other one had

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Speaker 2: a bit of tobacco. I wanted a bit of flint

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Speaker 2: one out of a thing, and I thought it was cool.

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Speaker 2: And I was off prison and I was, let's go,

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Speaker 2: let's go to prison. But then they come through and said, oh,

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Speaker 2: your father's just post your bail and you're walking out,

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Speaker 2: and I was like I was at the time. I

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Speaker 2: was a little disappointed. I was like, I was young,

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Speaker 2: formid of excursion.

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Speaker 1: You know, Okay, I've heard some stories here, but okay,

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Speaker 1: a bit disappointed.

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Speaker 2: Thinking back, Maybe maybe I shouldn't have post the bail.

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Speaker 2: Maybe I should have done that six months. I think

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Speaker 2: that anyone going off the rails needs to experience what

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Speaker 2: prison's like because it teaches it a lot as a character.

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Speaker 1: It's a hard call, isn't it. Because there's one school

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Speaker 1: of thought that, Okay, let's go hard ad them when

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Speaker 1: they're youngsters and yeah, you've just turned eight. In put

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Speaker 1: them in prison and show them what life's really like.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And then there's the other school of thought that if

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Speaker 1: you throw them in there, it just becomes a graduation

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Speaker 1: for a career as a criminal.

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Speaker 2: And it does for lots lots of boys, you know. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: some of these connections that you're making there.

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Speaker 1: It's like my preference if you can keep young fellas

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Speaker 1: and girls for that matter, out of prison, because I

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Speaker 1: think if you're in there, it's sort of it's almost

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Speaker 1: you carry that on your shoulder, the chip on your shoulder.

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Speaker 2: Will I would definitely agree. In my circumstances back then,

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Speaker 2: I think things may change for me. Howd I gone

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Speaker 2: to prison? This wasn't anyone's fault. This is just the

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Speaker 2: way things look out. No one could have predicted that

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Speaker 2: that I could got bail at the last minute, or

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Speaker 2: like I said, I come from a good family.

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Speaker 3: You know, what's my dad's in the post bail for me?

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Speaker 1: What sort of offense were you in for at that stage?

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Speaker 1: What was it?

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Speaker 3: I think it was a sault.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I've always had a problem with assaults, and

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Speaker 2: like violence has been an issue for me, and it

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Speaker 2: actually made me sick, you know, Like this was something

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Speaker 2: that I dealt with when I was going through super Max.

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Speaker 3: Mainly you get consumed by violence, you know.

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Speaker 1: Well, you told me an interesting story the other other

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Speaker 1: day that you met a blake when you were sixteen

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Speaker 1: or whatever, started getting into the weights and the street

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Speaker 1: fighting and learning boxing, and it almost became you were

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Speaker 1: drawing attention to yourself and people were picking fights around you,

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Speaker 1: knowing that you'd step in, and you went from one

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Speaker 1: battle to another. What was it? What was the gay

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Speaker 1: with that that guy? What influence did he have have

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Speaker 1: on you?

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Speaker 3: So at this point, there's so to say.

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Speaker 2: Let's just say at that point, maybe when I was fifteen,

288
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Speaker 2: when we crossed bars, so I'd already gone for a lot,

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Speaker 2: and I was already dealing with a lot. But at

290
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Speaker 2: this point I'd sort of managed through you through substance

291
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Speaker 2: and things like that, and whereas none of this was

292
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Speaker 2: an issue anymore, and I was just I was on

293
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Speaker 2: the front foot run of the market.

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Speaker 1: Lot of banger in you.

295
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Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely a lot of anger in me and just

296
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Speaker 2: not knowing how to direct it or deal with it,

297
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Speaker 2: you know, And yeah, and it just it consumes you.

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Speaker 3: But my crossing paths.

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Speaker 2: I won't mention his name because he may not want

300
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Speaker 2: to say mention, but he'll know who he is. And

301
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Speaker 2: a credit to him, he's doing very very well for himself.

302
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Speaker 3: Now.

303
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Speaker 2: He's got himself a massive business and he's really doing well,

304
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Speaker 2: got a good family. Before I crossed bars with him,

305
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Speaker 2: he did an eight year sentence for armed robberies.

306
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Speaker 3: Old school.

307
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Speaker 2: This guy will stand up on his toes at any time,

308
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Speaker 2: no matter what's in front of him, right, And I

309
00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:01,240
Speaker 2: admired that because something that I taught myself was with

310
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Speaker 2: what happened, was that I was going to build myself up.

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Speaker 2: No one was ever going to hurt me again. And

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Speaker 2: that's part of the reason I guess why I ended

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Speaker 2: up going through the clubs and that too.

314
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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: Interesting you say that, because I've seen a lot of

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Speaker 1: blokes sit where you're sitting, not just since I've been

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Speaker 1: out of the cops, when I was in the cops,

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Speaker 1: that yeah, I'm not going to be a victim anymore.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to look out for myself and no one's

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Speaker 1: going to fuck with me, basically, and that sort of

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Speaker 1: gratitude that can lead down the path that ends up

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Speaker 1: in the clubs.

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Speaker 3: And that's right, that's right, And.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't going to happen in that world or that

325
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Speaker 2: world and the consequences that, like I said, was only

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Speaker 2: going to end it either one or two ways for

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Speaker 2: me at the time. But I'm glad that whatever I've

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Speaker 2: gone through now and I'm in a really good place now,

329
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Speaker 2: you know. And I'm in a place now that I

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Speaker 2: can help others going through what I was going through.

331
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Speaker 2: You know, especially as far as going through gangs and

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Speaker 2: that sort of stuff.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like you didn't have the skills to walk

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Speaker 1: away from the violence or the prontation, and it was

335
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Speaker 1: just the one thing you were good at.

336
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Speaker 2: Well, when you say skill, I don't think I had

337
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Speaker 2: the emotional maturity. It was just easier for me to

338
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Speaker 2: go that way, you know.

339
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Speaker 1: Yeah, do you look look back at that time, and yeah,

340
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Speaker 1: I think I wasted all these years.

341
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Speaker 3: So many people go walk around think I'm on this

342
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Speaker 3: that no regrets. Come on me.

343
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Speaker 2: I've got nothing but regrets. But it's made me who

344
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Speaker 2: I am now, and who I am now like I

345
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:36,680
Speaker 2: love this person and I've got people that love me,

346
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Speaker 2: and that's all that matters now.

347
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Speaker 3: You know.

348
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Speaker 1: I got the sense that you're close with your family,

349
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Speaker 1: and so you must look back at them and think, Jesus,

350
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Speaker 1: I cause you guys some headaches over the years.

351
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Speaker 2: My mum will looks at this and have a laugh.

352
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Speaker 2: I torment her every day. My Dad said, torment her

353
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Speaker 2: like nothing else. But yeah, you know, you can't take

354
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Speaker 2: things back when you can't take them back, and if

355
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:02,480
Speaker 2: you're going to keep looking back, you're not going to

356
00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:02,960
Speaker 2: go forward.

357
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Speaker 3: You know.

358
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Speaker 2: When I come home from jail, like, I'm fairly good

359
00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:09,560
Speaker 2: with my words in situations like this, and when I'm

360
00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,360
Speaker 2: standing in front of people talking, that's fine, and when

361
00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:14,760
Speaker 2: it's coming from the heart, there's always giving to be

362
00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:17,080
Speaker 2: something like that up, you know. But I did say

363
00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:19,760
Speaker 2: to Mum and Dad when I come home that I

364
00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:23,040
Speaker 2: appreciate everything that you do for me, and I apologize

365
00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:24,879
Speaker 2: for everything else, you know, But they knew it.

366
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Speaker 1: I mean, well, yeah, that's all you can do. And

367
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Speaker 1: I suppose the reward for them is if you're turning

368
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Speaker 1: your life around now and yeah, it's okay. We all

369
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Speaker 1: grow up at different stages in life or will come

370
00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:40,240
Speaker 1: to the realization and what the path we should be following.

371
00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,280
Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm sure they understood. But I get the

372
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Speaker 1: sense that they stayed with you the whole time, which

373
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Speaker 1: is yeah, mate, So you're fortunate there because you would

374
00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:51,440
Speaker 1: have seen a lot of blokes in prisons that didn't

375
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Speaker 1: have that support. That makes a lot harder doesn't.

376
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Speaker 2: It definitely, definitely. You know, there's a lot of people

377
00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:02,520
Speaker 2: in prison that they are using drugs or stuff like that.

378
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Speaker 2: The way they treat their families terrible.

379
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Speaker 3: You know.

380
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:10,800
Speaker 2: Maccruarie did try to implement a strategy that would help

381
00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:17,080
Speaker 2: rather than punish addicts, and which the fundamentals of it

382
00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:19,000
Speaker 2: all was great, but there was just a few things

383
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,320
Speaker 2: in there that was a little bit I guess, of

384
00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,440
Speaker 2: a violation to an inmate in the sense, like one

385
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:27,600
Speaker 2: of the things we was was if you got caught

386
00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,680
Speaker 2: doing something, rather than coper charge or refine and we

387
00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:34,800
Speaker 2: take you off everything and then and that just puts

388
00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,280
Speaker 2: you out for a hustle. Anyway, we can sit down

389
00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:40,000
Speaker 2: with you and you can call your parents and tell

390
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,399
Speaker 2: your parents exactly what the money's been used for that

391
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:47,200
Speaker 2: they send you right now. I guess the theory behind

392
00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,480
Speaker 2: it is they think and they're helping people. But for

393
00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,440
Speaker 2: a lot of these guys, they've been written off by

394
00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,520
Speaker 2: their families and very very right, so they probably stole

395
00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:58,440
Speaker 2: them from them. They probably who knows what they've done,

396
00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,440
Speaker 2: But like any loving family, they're always going to try

397
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,639
Speaker 2: to keep a family together. So as soon as you

398
00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:09,480
Speaker 2: get this person it's an opportunity when he's vulnerable, when

399
00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:11,960
Speaker 2: he's been charged and he's in jail, and he's down

400
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:15,680
Speaker 2: and out, and he's separated from whatever in the parent's eyes,

401
00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,880
Speaker 2: drawing him away from him. Most of the time, they'll

402
00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,960
Speaker 2: choose to forgive that person that their child throughout that

403
00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,720
Speaker 2: traumatic situation that they're going through, and that's for both

404
00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:28,720
Speaker 2: of their hearts to try and heal. But what happens

405
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,560
Speaker 2: then when someone gets that phone call. You'd imagine the

406
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:33,400
Speaker 2: old man. I don't know if he can swear on.

407
00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,320
Speaker 1: You, as in, fuck him the old man.

408
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:36,879
Speaker 3: That's it.

409
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,439
Speaker 2: Tell the country get fucked, We're done no more. You

410
00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:42,680
Speaker 2: get me, because we're at that point before. This wasn't

411
00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,679
Speaker 2: my situation with my family, but this is what happens

412
00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:47,399
Speaker 2: with a lot of apes that are in jail.

413
00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,320
Speaker 1: Interesting take on it, because when you first mentioned I

414
00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:53,280
Speaker 1: thought that makes sense. It's making people accountable and all that.

415
00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,879
Speaker 1: But yeah, unless you're been inside, like you'll burn, you

416
00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:00,840
Speaker 1: don't fully appreciate the impact. But I can imagine imagine

417
00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:02,800
Speaker 1: that there would have been people who lost their families.

418
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:03,960
Speaker 3: That's right because of that.

419
00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:05,159
Speaker 1: So the punishment, but.

420
00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:09,480
Speaker 2: A credit to the jail for trying to help the

421
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:15,280
Speaker 2: old method of going frow and addikin segro. Either let

422
00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:16,720
Speaker 2: him out or you don't let him out, you set

423
00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:19,040
Speaker 2: him off to another jail. That some behavior is going

424
00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:21,880
Speaker 2: to be repeated. He's probably trying down in tech grow

425
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:25,480
Speaker 2: now Jason, like he just there's no no punishment. He's

426
00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:27,480
Speaker 2: going to fix someone who has an illness.

427
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:27,840
Speaker 3: You know.

428
00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:30,960
Speaker 1: Well, there's a lot of a lot of stuff that

429
00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,720
Speaker 1: I learned from the time in Macquarie, and we'll talk

430
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:39,520
Speaker 1: about that in depth. But you've gone from extremes before

431
00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:41,400
Speaker 1: before we put you in jail. We're going to put

432
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:46,359
Speaker 1: you in the OMCGS. So what attracted you to becoming

433
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:47,000
Speaker 1: a gang member?

434
00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:52,760
Speaker 2: Okay, So if we go back to with when I

435
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:54,600
Speaker 2: was younger and I was knocking around with that lad,

436
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:59,399
Speaker 2: I said, So he had a Harley anyway, So we

437
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,000
Speaker 2: went one training and we're doing some boxing and whatever

438
00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:03,439
Speaker 2: we're doing. We used to do a lot of boxing

439
00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:05,720
Speaker 2: and weights and the middle of summer and he goes,

440
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,840
Speaker 2: let's go for a ride. Made So we got in

441
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:12,000
Speaker 2: the middle of when he just pulls up. He's a

442
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,040
Speaker 2: big boy too, He's just pulled up and basically picked

443
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:16,360
Speaker 2: me up. And put me on the seat and jump

444
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,119
Speaker 2: on the back and said, now right it was And

445
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,800
Speaker 2: I loved partly He's like I had motibikes, but this

446
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,000
Speaker 2: was massive for me, you know. And that was my

447
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:29,000
Speaker 2: first ride anyways, so that sent me on my path then.

448
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,159
Speaker 2: I think I was probably twelve months later I had

449
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,359
Speaker 2: a bike, so Dad helped me out with that. I

450
00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:36,159
Speaker 2: actually bought it off one of my mates. Was a

451
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,520
Speaker 2: beautiful bike. For the first bike at that age. There

452
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,600
Speaker 2: was a custom soft tail. They come with a front

453
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:44,800
Speaker 2: cover of lived the ride sent and fold the whole lot.

454
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:46,600
Speaker 1: You know, you're on the on the not me.

455
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:49,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, with the girl on it and that, you know,

456
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:51,920
Speaker 2: and it's just like say, three young fellow then. And

457
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:54,720
Speaker 2: I was very fit and training and that say used

458
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:56,840
Speaker 2: to ride around him, put your shorts and a single

459
00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:57,600
Speaker 2: it and he gave.

460
00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:58,679
Speaker 3: You you know what I mean?

461
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:00,440
Speaker 1: And yeah, I do know what you mean.

462
00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,240
Speaker 3: I know I didn't have any intentions of going into it, but.

463
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,560
Speaker 1: I see how that can be intoxicating for a young bloke.

464
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 1: You're trying to find your way in the path. You

465
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,080
Speaker 1: found the brotherhood and if you're in the bikes and

466
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,320
Speaker 1: the excitement have been on the big Harley.

467
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:18,360
Speaker 2: Well, i'd say I was in two different clubs, both

468
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:20,080
Speaker 2: of them over a long long period.

469
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:21,760
Speaker 1: Are you're right to mention the name of the clubs?

470
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I I was in Lone Wolf and then

471
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,560
Speaker 2: I went to the things now Lone Wolf. There was

472
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:33,240
Speaker 2: close connection there with our family in a sense. Now,

473
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 2: my family's not associated with O mcg whatsoever, So I

474
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:37,840
Speaker 2: just want to make that clear.

475
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:38,679
Speaker 1: Okay.

476
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 2: Across the road from home was like a horse adjistment place,

477
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,720
Speaker 2: and mum and dad a very good friends with the

478
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:47,479
Speaker 2: people that ran it.

479
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:49,520
Speaker 1: Where was this that in the.

480
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 3: Now?

481
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 2: One of the workers at the place there his step daughter,

482
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 2: so she was like my first little girl friend. You know,

483
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:02,680
Speaker 2: we were very young on that, but her dad was

484
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,280
Speaker 2: a thirty year life member of Lone Wolf. So there

485
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,639
Speaker 2: was a close connection there. And then I also had

486
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,159
Speaker 2: through some very close friends like my son's godmother and

487
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,399
Speaker 2: then extended family from there, we're in Lone Wolf as well.

488
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:15,479
Speaker 3: You know.

489
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:17,760
Speaker 1: Okay, so there was an association.

490
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 3: So that's how that connection happened. Yeah. I got a

491
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:20,360
Speaker 3: lot of.

492
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 2: Respect for a lot of guys in that club. That's

493
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,160
Speaker 2: a very old school sort of club. I think it's

494
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,560
Speaker 2: changed a lot now I don't know much about it anymore.

495
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 2: So it's been many, many years for me since I

496
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 2: was in that club. I have a lot of respect

497
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:34,600
Speaker 2: for some of the old guys at it in that club,

498
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:35,720
Speaker 2: and always will.

499
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:38,960
Speaker 3: I had a lot of fun in that club.

500
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 1: Did you become a patch member?

501
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely yeah yeah.

502
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 2: So I started at Mount Druert and then we split

503
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 2: and we started the branch out and then we opened

504
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,119
Speaker 2: up at a new planes and just teens, escalators, a

505
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 2: pretty will ride you basically. But you know, that world

506
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 2: got caught up. I had a few fallings out, not

507
00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 2: with the club itself, but internally anyway. That ended up

508
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 2: with my departure from the club. There's a lot of

509
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 2: things that changed over the years with White Club, you know.

510
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 1: I saw it from a policing point of view. You

511
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,359
Speaker 1: talk the old school bikies and things that wouldn't go

512
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,680
Speaker 1: down in the old days go down now as gaceful.

513
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 3: You know.

514
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it has changed. I heard a lot of old

515
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 1: timers wings about change from what we set it up for,

516
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 1: and from a police point of view, I'm just going

517
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 1: to say it looked like it was more contained, like

518
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 1: it didn't spill out into the public. It wasn't. Yeah,

519
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 1: they certainly got around in their colors when they were about,

520
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,479
Speaker 1: but they caused problems with it was internal or with

521
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 1: another gang, and it didn't branch out as much as

522
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:49,680
Speaker 1: it seems to these days.

523
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 3: That's right.

524
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 2: So now you've got and now when you've got things

525
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,120
Speaker 2: like Raptor and that sort of thing, you know, everyone's

526
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 2: out there game, you know, and it's just it's not

527
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 2: a world I want to be a social with.

528
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:02,920
Speaker 1: You know, how long did you stay with the Lone

529
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 1: Wolves for.

530
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 3: About seven years? I think about seven years.

531
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 1: Probably, Okay, so you're in the in the think of it.

532
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like there's a lot of good guys there, and

533
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 2: I think a lot of guys have moved on to

534
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 2: you know, but there are still a lot of guys

535
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 2: there that and they're decent guys too, you know, like

536
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 2: a lot of them are hardworking guys. I mean, there's

537
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:29,880
Speaker 2: obviously there's all elements in.

538
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 1: And look, I think people when they're listening to this

539
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,880
Speaker 1: and we're talking about outlaw motorcycle gangs, they call themselves

540
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 1: out little motorcycle gangs for a reason. Yeah, but I

541
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 1: think what we're what you're saying here, if I'm interpreting

542
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 1: it correctly, is that just because they're in the gang

543
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:47,679
Speaker 1: doesn't make them inherently a bad person.

544
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 3: That's right.

545
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 1: They work, they look after their family. Yeah, they get

546
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 1: up to ship, but not all.

547
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 3: Of them, not everyone. But that's it.

548
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,439
Speaker 2: But you should have said not everyone before that. Not

549
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, because not like I'm talking about,

550
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,160
Speaker 2: there are some decent I was into that just love

551
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 2: to ride, love bike, love the brotherhood, and and.

552
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 3: You find that more of the old school sort of clubs.

553
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 2: I think these days, these days, with the law the

554
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 2: way things are, I think there's a lot. I think

555
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:21,360
Speaker 2: it's more about you know, what you.

556
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 1: Can do earning a dollar and not not getting caught

557
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 1: caught by the cops.

558
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 2: Well yeah, but like because you think about it, like

559
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 2: it's a big to go out and become a biking

560
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,439
Speaker 2: now with the knowledge of what is in front of her.

561
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:37,719
Speaker 3: I get it.

562
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,680
Speaker 2: If someone's been a boy, it's very hard to walk away,

563
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 2: but they go out and do it now you've either

564
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:44,919
Speaker 2: got one thing on your mind or in it you

565
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 2: had read well you know what I mean.

566
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 1: Because I got to say and yeah, I reckon there'd

567
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 1: be a tough gig. Now with the way that crime

568
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,880
Speaker 1: has investigating, the advantages of the cops have got over

569
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 1: say so many things. It's not like the old days.

570
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 1: If you're in the club and just everyone's staunched, no

571
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,440
Speaker 1: one's going to get caught, That's right.

572
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 3: It seems to change, you know.

573
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 2: And if you're going to be a club member now

574
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 2: you've got to expect rat to come through the door

575
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 2: with machine gun on them. Your kids are going to

576
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 2: be exposed to it. My kids are exposed so that

577
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 2: I can't take that back.

578
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, the raptor came in at a time when

579
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 1: it was it was getting out of hand, and reference

580
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,239
Speaker 1: it to the airport situation, and that was a bit

581
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,439
Speaker 1: of I was in gang squad at the time, so

582
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: I know what was going down, and it was just

583
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 1: a cross the line.

584
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 2: And deservingly is what those guys did with me, apart

585
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 2: from I don't appreciate what happened with my kids, but

586
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 2: I was out of control, you know. Like I said,

587
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 2: it was only going to end one way. It's one

588
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,399
Speaker 2: of two ways, and the problem with that is the

589
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 2: possibility for colutteral damage along the ways. Massive and I'm

590
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 2: just grateful that I didn't.

591
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:53,360
Speaker 3: Get to that, you know.

592
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, how did it go that you touched on

593
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:58,920
Speaker 1: it with the Lone Wolves that you're just it was

594
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,439
Speaker 1: an internal thing and you decided to leave. Yeah, and

595
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 1: then you went Which gang did you go to?

596
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,719
Speaker 3: Then? So I stayed out for a lots. I had

597
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:08,120
Speaker 3: no intention of going back.

598
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,120
Speaker 1: All right, So you left Lone Wolves and thought I'm

599
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 1: out of this life.

600
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I really tried.

601
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 1: Were you're working or yeah? Yeah, what we're doing?

602
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 2: So, like I'm a glazier by trade and stonemason by

603
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 2: trade as well. I've always worked. I mean, there was

604
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 2: a time just before I went to jail where I

605
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:26,160
Speaker 2: was running.

606
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 1: On you picked too hard trades there. Yeah, I've got

607
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 1: a couple of mates of the stone Masons. Yeah. It's hard,

608
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 1: hard yacker, isn't it.

609
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 3: Yeah?

610
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 2: Well I was very good at it, you know, I

611
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 2: wouldn't like. The only way I go back to it

612
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 2: is to build my own place or something. So at

613
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 2: that time, though I was working where it was I working.

614
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 2: I was working for BDM Constructions, which is a construction

615
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 2: company at Port mccruorie, but I was doing their banks

616
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 2: down here in Sydney. So the bank refurbs and that,

617
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 2: so I do all the aluminium glass so you can

618
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 2: work and all that. And I was working there and

619
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 2: I got a I got a message from one of

620
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 2: the boys at the time was a thin but we

621
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 2: grew up together and back when I was in the

622
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 2: Wolf at that time, he was a rebel. And then

623
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 2: we both moved on, and I thought we'd both moved

624
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 2: on anyway, he sent me a photo of him in

625
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 2: a set of things colors, but that still didn't get

626
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 2: me at that point, you know. I mean I was

627
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 2: obviously thinking about it, you know. And then just over

628
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 2: time I ended up going and joining with him, and

629
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 2: I started as vice president straight away, like when I

630
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 2: went there, you know, right, and then yeah, I.

631
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 1: Just were you with a lady at the time or

632
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: may married?

633
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 3: Yeah? This and this this is.

634
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 2: The heartbreaking part, you know, because I lost all that

635
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 2: so like I didn't, like, I've still got the kids

636
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 2: and we've got a great relationship. But I was with

637
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 2: my wife at the time, Sky all together for twenty

638
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 2: five years, married for fourteen or fifteen, and then obviously

639
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 2: that's done now, you know.

640
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: But how long were you in the Thinks for probably

641
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 1: about eight years maybe the and like, I'm just trying

642
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 1: to remember when I actually left, like when I was

643
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: in jail, you know, because that's when I said that's it. Well,

644
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 1: you know, well you're fully committed because you've got it

645
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 1: tatooed on the side of your side of your head.

646
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, my whole heads all covered, mate, you know.

647
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 1: But yeah, you were committed and that that was the lifestyle.

648
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 1: Did you think at that stage when you got wife

649
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 1: and kids, you've been there, you've done that, you came

650
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 1: away from it, you're working earning for a living, you

651
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: got the ships with yourself that you fell back into

652
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 1: that lifestyle.

653
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

654
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was just the attraction, the bottom of being

655
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 1: a citizen what threw you back into.

656
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 3: Mate, in the club, it's just hard to like, it's

657
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 3: hard just when you've been there. And I've never been

658
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 3: one to go and sit on a fence, you know.

659
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 3: I mean, like if I go there, I'll go there,

660
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 3: you know, and you fully commit.

661
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, And that's where I was at before

662
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 2: I went to jail.

663
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 3: You know.

664
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 2: It's hard for me to comprehend the two different places

665
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 2: that my.

666
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 1: Head was who you were then to who you are now?

667
00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and now and then when I think back, and

668
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 2: this is something that I come to realize when I

669
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 2: was in the Zupermax. Because I didn't even like myself

670
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 2: and who I had to become to do what I

671
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 2: was doing. Then you know, I didn't like that person.

672
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 2: Who's going to like me?

673
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 3: So?

674
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 1: What was the what was the crime that got you

675
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 1: the six years? What happened there? I think in the paper, the.

676
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 3: Papers, the papers have had a good crack them.

677
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: They well, yeah, okay, this is I've only pulled out

678
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 1: pulled out an extract of it. But one of the

679
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 1: country's most soon you think bikes, who has a club's

680
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: name tattooed on the side of his skull, is behind

681
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: bars and kidnapping, weapons and drug charges. And the thirty

682
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 1: nine year old was charged with a string of offenses

683
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: including kidnapping in company, causing reckless grievous bodily harm, intimidating

684
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: a witness, and dealing drugs. That is that what you

685
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 1: went down for?

686
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 3: Not really yep, they make them.

687
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 2: They throw whatever they can throw into so they've taken

688
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 2: the tain. Wasn't even wasn't even take in detain And

689
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 2: I wasn't even there right say, what happened? And it

690
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 2: got downgraded to it got down and graded to intimidation.

691
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: Okay, so what what was what was the game with it?

692
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 2: So this was this was a new member that had

693
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 2: come in and done some wrong stuff whatever, and I

694
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 2: said to the boys go and get him bringing back

695
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 2: the club house.

696
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,719
Speaker 1: What position were you in at the time in the

697
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: in the club, I was a national national president.

698
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so there was five of us at the

699
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 2: time that was that that had that ranking tiation. Yeah,

700
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 2: but I also still had a club outse at portball Quarrie,

701
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 2: and I was trying I was trying to train a

702
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 2: few peckle up to like like I think I've referred

703
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 2: to being a babysitter at different times. Well, I was

704
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 2: that term in the club at different times, you.

705
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: Know, through the finishing school for biking.

706
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 3: And so you can imagine this is a legacy.

707
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 2: So when I went so just to give the viewers

708
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 2: and that an understanding, I went from Windsor where I

709
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 2: was a vice president, and then I went to Port

710
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 2: McCrorie on my own and set up as I think

711
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 2: now that's a known bandido team.

712
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 1: I was going to say that band I've had some

713
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: dealings with the bandidos up there.

714
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and throughout that there, and we built we

715
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 2: built there, so you could imagine.

716
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 1: Pretty small town for.

717
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 2: You know what I mean, and for me when I

718
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 2: went there and I made it known I was there, yeah,

719
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 2: you know, but I wasn't disrespectful about it, not until

720
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 2: not until other things were disrespected. But we always maintained

721
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 2: a decent level of a relationship, you know. But yeah,

722
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 2: so that drew up there and then obviously for me

723
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 2: to try and get someone to take take it over, yeah,

724
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 2: it just didn't happen. So I was mate, I left

725
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,719
Speaker 2: myself short. I was running around all over the place.

726
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 2: This is where you know, this is why I don't

727
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 2: have a wife anymore.

728
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:49,239
Speaker 3: You know.

729
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 1: She It's always hard when you're talking about your personal life,

730
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 1: but just to put in perspective, you've been together for

731
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 1: what twenty five years, did you say? Yeah?

732
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 3: And she was a beautiful life mate, So she was.

733
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: Rock solid relationship. And the chaos that was coming from

734
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,919
Speaker 1: you and your role in the FINX yeah, just enough

735
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:11,399
Speaker 1: is enough?

736
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty much, you know, and like and the things

737
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 2: that come along with it. You know, she was very

738
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,320
Speaker 2: good to me, you know, like it was a big mistake,

739
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 2: big mistake.

740
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 3: On my behalt on behalf.

741
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 2: But what happens is sometimes things go too far. You

742
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 2: can't you can't go back to it, you know. But

743
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 2: I'll always love it and always be there for you know.

744
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 1: So with the I'm only going off the what was

745
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 1: reported in the media that raptor rated your home and

746
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 1: there was something that was posted on TV about that

747
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 1: made made the news, and these articles flowed on what

748
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 1: did you end up going down?

749
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 3: That's right?

750
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:50,359
Speaker 2: Sorry, yeah, So so basically my charges were GBH with intent.

751
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 1: And that's on the fellow member of the club.

752
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 2: Well, this was a difference. This was a different thing altogether.

753
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 2: It was a club related thing. All of it was

754
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 2: basically related, you know. So I copped the GBH with

755
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 2: intent and I copped that take and detained, but they

756
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 2: dropped it down to intimidation. I got done with a

757
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 2: certain amount of drugs.

758
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 1: And without giving the chips on how bikes should avoid

759
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 1: avoid the cops. But yeah, you put yourself in a gang,

760
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 1: so yeah, you're associated with that person. That person, it's

761
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,360
Speaker 1: not not hard to follow the follow the path. And

762
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,319
Speaker 1: I think and I've heard a lot of guys in

763
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 1: your position that they've been brought down by association. But again,

764
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 1: I suppose that's a price you pay.

765
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 3: Definitely, definitely, you know.

766
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 2: I mean but even like even a lot of think

767
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 2: guys are really good guys, you know, yeah, and there

768
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 2: is a massive part of them that have families and

769
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:46,280
Speaker 2: work too, And it's like and sometimes you can't control

770
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 2: the way things move. You might start with a chap

771
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 2: there and it might be like this, but over time

772
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 2: it winds up ends up here and wearing the colors

773
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 2: like it just happens, you know, But and it's hard

774
00:35:58,120 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 2: to sort.

775
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 3: Of it's hard to sort of separated.

776
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 1: I guess, like, well, is it is it fair to

777
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 1: say that's the risk your take when you when you

778
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 1: join again? Seeing that Okay, well it's basically, yeah, we're

779
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 1: in this together. I've got your back. Yeah, and you

780
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,799
Speaker 1: could have some drop kick that's caused problems, but you've

781
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,760
Speaker 1: got to back back him up because he's a gang member.

782
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 1: That type of situation.

783
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely.

784
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:23,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can give you an example of where you

785
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 2: can find I guess the people that make the experience bad.

786
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 2: Because when I went to jail, all the rubbish that

787
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 2: I had to put up with from internal that was

788
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 2: from us in there was just disgusting, you know.

789
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 1: Okay, so that's because you you've gone in as a member. Yeah,

790
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 1: another member has done it inside. Well that that comes

791
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 1: down on you too.

792
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 3: One hundred.

793
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 2: Like when I first got to jail, like we were

794
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 2: involved in a war, like and we're at Goldwen, this

795
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 2: is not this is before they've I think they've changed

796
00:36:55,239 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 2: it now to a protection jail, you know. Yeah, it's

797
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 2: a fight for survival.

798
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 1: Golvin always had the reputation of folks that have been

799
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 1: in there, and I saw it from the outside as

800
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 1: a tough prison. So that the rest we're talking about

801
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 1: that you've got your six years that was yeah, is

802
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 1: that when raptor got you? And the kids are saying it,

803
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 1: How old were the kids at the time.

804
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 2: And well, probably about eleven and twelve, aren't. Yeah, that's

805
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,280
Speaker 2: too young, you know. Yeah, but they're doing very well.

806
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 2: Like my son is an absolute champion. My daughter she's gorgeous.

807
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 2: Like my son's working. She had a great job. My

808
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,279
Speaker 2: daughter she's about to go to UNI. She had a

809
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 2: great job as well. Like I couldn't be happier, you know,

810
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 2: like as far as that goes, But you know, I'm

811
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 2: just so happy to be back in their lives and yeah.

812
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 1: Well that's and you know, we'll talk about what prison

813
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 1: is and what the punishment is, but yeah, that's one

814
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 1: thing that you've taken away from your family and that's

815
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:02,359
Speaker 1: that's where Yeah, I know when I spent time in Macquarie,

816
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 1: that was the thing that most people were saying. Punishment

817
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: is we're being taken away from our family now not winging,

818
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, I think you've owned the fact that

819
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 1: you're out of control and end up getting sentenced. But yeah,

820
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 1: it's that impact that has on your family that can

821
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 1: carry pretty heavy on the shoulders.

822
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 3: I think it's more that way than the other.

823
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 1: So when you when you got arrested, take it. You

824
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 1: didn't get bail.

825
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:33,439
Speaker 2: So basically when I got arrested, I went straight into

826
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 2: the holding cells at Port Macquarie.

827
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 3: And I guess there was.

828
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,799
Speaker 2: Like with the we detect you for the thing that

829
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 2: was I guess there was like a respect leable there

830
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 2: or some sort, because they never come I mean you

831
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 2: can and you could reference this too. They never even

832
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:56,439
Speaker 2: come up and offered me a dealers because they knew

833
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 2: the situation.

834
00:38:57,120 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 3: You know. Yeah, I was hard at the.

835
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 2: Time and it was just the road straight out of

836
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 2: Fort Marcory Police Station. Probably couldn't have happened any quicker,

837
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, So they didn't wuck around

838
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:08,800
Speaker 2: with me. And I went from there to Newcastle Holding Cells.

839
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 2: I don't know how long I was there for it

840
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,799
Speaker 2: sort of underground to lose concept at the time, and

841
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,319
Speaker 2: then I went through Silk Water and I had to

842
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 2: go through and basically get processed. And I was there

843
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 2: for about two weeks in the segro with other think

844
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,240
Speaker 2: boys and other club members that were along the roads

845
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:29,240
Speaker 2: in the segregation, you know, and then I headed to mccorie,

846
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 2: I mean to Goldwyn, but at the time I knew

847
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:35,359
Speaker 2: so there was one of the boys there that was

848
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 2: trying to cause big dramas and on knew there was

849
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 2: an issue straight away.

850
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 1: So when you hit the yard, it was already on.

851
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's like a necessary you know.

852
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,280
Speaker 2: I don't know how to explain it for viewers to understand,

853
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 2: but anyway, jail politics are very.

854
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 1: Is it fair to say that you've got to align

855
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 1: yourself with your crew? Okay, you have gone in there

856
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 1: a think was that was your crew? And it's also

857
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,359
Speaker 1: there's a race divide to that that comes into play

858
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 1: as well.

859
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that was already in place. And the worst

860
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 2: part about the race the vide was we had this

861
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:15,359
Speaker 2: race with us too.

862
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 1: That gets complicated, isn't the lines.

863
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 3: Of blurred then around this race. It's just like it

864
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:21,839
Speaker 3: was just so wrong.

865
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 2: But we did sort it out right, and through the

866
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 2: means of sorting it out in a gle environment. I'm

867
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 2: gonna try and word this so that doesn't come across one.

868
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:31,399
Speaker 3: Yeah.

869
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 2: Wrong, but you're in it's a jungle, and it's a

870
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:41,240
Speaker 2: very very volatile area, right, and to resolve things sometimes

871
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:47,240
Speaker 2: you have to elevate things strategically, if that makes sense.

872
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 2: I don't really know how else to explain it.

873
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:53,240
Speaker 1: I don't want you to give away anything that happened

874
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 1: in prison, but my take on it from what you're saying,

875
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 1: is that if something gets someone gets disrespected, you're going

876
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 1: to get respect back, and so you might escalate it.

877
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 1: In some if someone was punched in the yard, well

878
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 1: it might be retribution might be heavier than the punch

879
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 1: coming back.

880
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 3: Yeah it was.

881
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, so let's just say that that whatever that

882
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 2: incident was landed me in the supermax all right. Now

883
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 2: the next now it's nothing there's nothing to be locked

884
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 2: in for five days at Alburn, get let out in

885
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 2: the yard for two minutes, someone gets stabbed in your

886
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:29,840
Speaker 2: back inside for another six days. Yeah, that's just the

887
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 2: way it works, being part of whatever you've heard of it.

888
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 2: You can still break the cycle to get and locked

889
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,879
Speaker 2: in by choosing to go to work. Well, I went

890
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 2: to work this day and they just came down and

891
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 2: gabb me and took me up in the cells. And

892
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,799
Speaker 2: the governor, who was bolder at the time, come through

893
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 2: and just basically said, I'm throwing you in the supermacs

894
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 2: and you're going to spend the rest of your jail

895
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 2: on the supermacs. And I didn't even give me a

896
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 2: chance to explame why.

897
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,359
Speaker 1: And that's from an incident happened in the yard.

898
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:01,360
Speaker 2: But I was being hard done by so I a

899
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 2: t at the time. Which are the squad the guys

900
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 2: that are running around trying to resolve what Some of

901
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,399
Speaker 2: these guys had a level of respect for me. It's

902
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 2: a crazy little world. Yeah. One of them that walked

903
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:16,840
Speaker 2: me down, he was one of the heads of the squad.

904
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:18,439
Speaker 2: He walking down. There's a few of them that walking

905
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 2: down to the supermacs. So the super making.

906
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:26,720
Speaker 3: It's a it's a secure jail inside of jail.

907
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 1: I've been there. Describe it because the first time I

908
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 1: went there, I just yeah, literally, how you described the

909
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 1: jail within the jail, Just explain what happens.

910
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 2: Well, the Hollywood movie wouldn't break you out of there, Yeah,

911
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 2: you know, but anyway, and you get lost.

912
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 1: It's just what I'd described from my memory of it,

913
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:51,400
Speaker 1: and you'll have a more detailed memory. But the circular buildings,

914
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 1: the pod you walk, you go through the security, you're

915
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 1: getting the Golden Prison, then you go through the security

916
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:00,360
Speaker 1: to get into super Max, and then you're in super Max,

917
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,839
Speaker 1: and that from my memory, it was circular, and you're

918
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 1: walking around and the perspect screens. I remember seeing Ivan

919
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:12,240
Speaker 1: Malatt strutting his stuff and patrolling like a caged animal,

920
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:16,240
Speaker 1: just staring at things, going back, the terrorists, gang members,

921
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:21,320
Speaker 1: all sorts of people. Yeah, so sort of that's graduation

922
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 1: school from prison, isn't it. The rest of the prison

923
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 1: system doesn't handle you, and then you end up in

924
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 1: super Max. Yeah, tell us about the day to day

925
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 1: life in there, because one thing that just sort of

926
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:39,240
Speaker 1: dulled your senses. It was so repetitive and so boring.

927
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 1: That's the sense that I got that everyone was just

928
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:42,760
Speaker 1: going stir crazy.

929
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 3: I believe that things that changed slightly there.

930
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,760
Speaker 2: Now when I was there, they wouldn't let the official

931
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,880
Speaker 2: visitor down there. I think the official visitor can go

932
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 2: down there, and I think I think they've really cleaned

933
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 2: it up.

934
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:59,439
Speaker 1: When you say official visitor, that's some independent person coming

935
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:01,240
Speaker 1: into have a look, that's.

936
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 2: Right, and speak to the inmates. You get so the

937
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 2: inmates then express their concern that.

938
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,360
Speaker 1: Was that was a safeguard the ship wasn't going down.

939
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:10,959
Speaker 3: But yeah, they weren't.

940
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I'll just give you an example when I

941
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 2: got when I went in there, so when I was

942
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:19,399
Speaker 2: at the top, they stripped me down naked, and they

943
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:23,799
Speaker 2: came and gave me a pair of underpants, a pair

944
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 2: of track pants, a pair of socks, a shirt, and

945
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 2: a jumper. I didn't even have shoes, so I had

946
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,799
Speaker 2: so I would go into the supermax and I'm like,

947
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:36,400
Speaker 2: when you go to any jail, you get issued greens.

948
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 2: You get issued your clothes if you don't have them

949
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 2: in your property because you bought them or whatever. I

950
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 2: go in there and I expect to get more greens. Anyways,

951
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 2: nothing comes. I'll give them one blanket, a sheet. I

952
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 2: had no pillow and one tower. The room was moldy.

953
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,720
Speaker 2: I was in Unit seven, just really dirty, old dinger.

954
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 2: You wouldn't put your dog in there. And I kept

955
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 2: asking for an explanation while was there, because I was

956
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 2: there without charge. No charge is nothing, not even an explanation.

957
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:11,399
Speaker 2: I didn't get one for three months. You lose all

958
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 2: concept at the time, from the first point when I

959
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:15,720
Speaker 2: got in now I was looking for fourteen days without

960
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 2: to open it in a back cage, just to get

961
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 2: a bit of air. No book, no pen, no paper,

962
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 2: no books, nothing at that point, if I had something

963
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 2: to kill myself with, I probably would have because I

964
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 2: didn't know what was going on. They wouldn't tell me

965
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 2: while I was there. They wouldn't give me anything. When

966
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 2: I go for a phone call, five of them come

967
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:39,319
Speaker 2: in and make me get at the back. I'd have

968
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:41,399
Speaker 2: to put my legs behind me, back, my hands beyond

969
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 2: my head. They cuffed me and dragged me out to

970
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 2: the phone, cuffed me to the phone, let me make

971
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:50,439
Speaker 2: the call, and then hang up with me and drave

972
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 2: me back in. You know, just trying to break it,

973
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 2: you know, and at this point I was breaking because

974
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:57,319
Speaker 2: I didn't know what was going on there.

975
00:45:58,320 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 3: It was either.

976
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:04,719
Speaker 2: Like, honestly, the only way I was thinking about trying

977
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:06,799
Speaker 2: to hurt someone real bad, you know, That's how I

978
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:07,240
Speaker 2: was thinking.

979
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 3: I don't know how I'm going to get out of

980
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 3: this situation.

981
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 2: Even when they keep your sports time, they push out

982
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 2: a concrete yard. This is for a reason, mind you,

983
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:18,280
Speaker 2: It's there for a reason.

984
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 3: This, you know.

985
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 2: Like and although I was in for my crimes and

986
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:26,760
Speaker 2: everything that I was in there, I don't I believe

987
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:29,359
Speaker 2: that at this point here, I wasn't treated fairly at

988
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 2: the time what I was trying to do at the

989
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 2: top of the jails, like say, any jail only runs

990
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:42,360
Speaker 2: through through certain inmates control actions, right, I was doing

991
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 2: most of the opposite up the top. Knew what I

992
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 2: was doing. I was doing for a reason, but I believed,

993
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:52,839
Speaker 2: but none of them would step up for it. Right

994
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 2: that bold Dart, the government that put me on he

995
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:57,919
Speaker 2: went on and leave after he put me in there.

996
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:01,319
Speaker 2: No one, this is what I found out later, No

997
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 2: one was willing to sign me off on having me released.

998
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 1: Because I'm against the bosses.

999
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 2: Well, the order come from above to tell him to

1000
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 2: do something about what was going on with the walls at.

1001
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 1: The place because it was known as the graveyard Golden Prison.

1002
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 3: May I give you an example.

1003
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 2: You get there, if you're a normal inmate, then you're

1004
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 2: aligned with anyone and you get there, they're probably already

1005
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:31,240
Speaker 2: got there and they got a blade. All right, Now

1006
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 2: I'm going out into that yard. I'd never take a

1007
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 2: knife or a fight. I'll hold my hands up any

1008
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 2: day of the week. I need a knife to do it.

1009
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:43,439
Speaker 2: But what am I going to do when someone's got one.

1010
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:46,839
Speaker 2: I'm not talking a knife Golden's fall, but they're walking

1011
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:50,239
Speaker 2: around with samurai swords, you know what I mean. One

1012
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:52,520
Speaker 2: of the first ones I peeled off was from a

1013
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 2: big lump of steel that had rusted. And it was

1014
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 2: like that night when I went back and I was

1015
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 2: thinking about what happened to forty five actually end up

1016
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 2: using someone to stay in jail forever. So I had

1017
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 2: to get rid of that and just try and find

1018
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 2: something that I could have to protect myself in some

1019
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:11,280
Speaker 2: other means. Now, like I said, I don't carry knives,

1020
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:12,799
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? But what do you do

1021
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:15,840
Speaker 2: when there's a fair changing to get stabbed in the

1022
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:18,439
Speaker 2: yard that day if if you don't, if you got

1023
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 2: one that said deterrent for that person to stay away

1024
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:20,840
Speaker 2: from me.

1025
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 3: You know.

1026
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 2: Now you should hear the sounds hitting the floor whenever

1027
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:29,320
Speaker 2: the squad run into the yard in Gulben. It's like

1028
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:31,359
Speaker 2: someone frow and change on the ground. It's all the

1029
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:34,840
Speaker 2: lights hitting the floor, you know what I mean. People

1030
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 2: got magazines around their stomachs.

1031
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:37,319
Speaker 3: You know what I mean.

1032
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 2: Like it's just it's a jungleman, you know, and it's

1033
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:44,720
Speaker 2: a fight for survival every day. But we're human beings,

1034
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:47,319
Speaker 2: so we either it's the fight or flight. We're either

1035
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 2: at dat. I used to spend our grandfathers will be

1036
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:55,400
Speaker 2: rolling over in their graves watching us conduct ourselves in prison.

1037
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 2: Now you know what I mean. Like there's a few

1038
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 2: that will stand up for themselves and for us this

1039
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:03,240
Speaker 2: whereas all the other races I support each other.

1040
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:03,239
Speaker 3: You know.

1041
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 2: I used to spend day, like every day trying to

1042
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 2: convince some young feller just you're not involved in anything

1043
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 2: that's going on in you. If you have any issues,

1044
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:13,960
Speaker 2: come and see if but stay away like and then

1045
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 2: I'd tell them walk out of the visits, to go

1046
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:16,399
Speaker 2: under the walk of shame.

1047
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 3: Back to the boneyard and what you're doing. They use

1048
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:21,799
Speaker 3: it too much, you know, and.

1049
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 2: It's like, but what they don't realize Boniard's not going

1050
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 2: to keep you safe.

1051
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 1: So this when you say boneyard, explained that, I know

1052
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 1: what you mean, but explain that to pedophiles. Okay, in

1053
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,520
Speaker 1: the protection within the prison from the regular.

1054
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:38,760
Speaker 3: Or dogs who have rolled on people.

1055
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 1: You know.

1056
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:43,320
Speaker 2: Now you've got these kids going into a place with

1057
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:45,600
Speaker 2: rapists and that are they're going to get raped in there.

1058
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 2: I understand you're in a place that you're not comfortable in,

1059
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:50,040
Speaker 2: but you're not going to get I'll give you. I

1060
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:51,880
Speaker 2: gave you my word, and other boys in the yard

1061
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:58,400
Speaker 2: look after you. Just don't get involved in drugs, right easy? No,

1062
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:01,919
Speaker 2: who knows what app until them. Now you know, I've

1063
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:03,319
Speaker 2: heard stories, you know what I mean.

1064
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:06,919
Speaker 1: When they've gone in there, they're marked forever, and that's right.

1065
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:08,879
Speaker 1: Someone will eventually get to them.

1066
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 2: And then when they come back to the prison, that's

1067
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:12,759
Speaker 2: where they're going back to there because I've already been there.

1068
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:16,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, they can't can't walk away from that.

1069
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:16,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1070
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:21,120
Speaker 1: So with super max, were you're allowed to associate with

1071
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:22,720
Speaker 1: other other prisoners.

1072
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 2: Or so they run it on a level system, so

1073
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 2: I'm not know if that's how they still do it,

1074
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:31,839
Speaker 2: but that's how they were doing it. So it goes

1075
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:34,400
Speaker 2: from not three to three and you go through the

1076
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:37,719
Speaker 2: processes all the way on the steps, and that's when

1077
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:38,920
Speaker 2: you start to get stuff.

1078
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:41,319
Speaker 3: So obviously I.

1079
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:44,200
Speaker 2: Don't even think I'm I don't even think I hit

1080
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:47,799
Speaker 2: the board because I had nothing. I did have a thing,

1081
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 2: you know, but you know I did humble me to

1082
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 2: see some of the other guys in there. There's one

1083
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 2: door there in particular. I won't meant you mentioned his name,

1084
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:04,120
Speaker 2: but he's happy to choose to have nothing. If they

1085
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:07,840
Speaker 2: want to feel like they can say bullying through certain means,

1086
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 2: he'll he'll he'll be happy just to.

1087
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 3: Not have any not even a meal, you get me.

1088
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 1: And that's his way, that's his way of fighting back.

1089
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:19,239
Speaker 3: And at one point there when I was there, the

1090
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 3: big boss come down the scene and caught him a

1091
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 3: stubborn prick and give him his way for it.

1092
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 1: All right, Yeah, you know, so different ways of fighting

1093
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:32,160
Speaker 1: fighting this. Yes, how do you stay sane in that environment?

1094
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:33,960
Speaker 3: You don't how long.

1095
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 1: Were you in super max?

1096
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 3: For four months?

1097
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 1: And what's it what's it doing to your head? You

1098
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:41,840
Speaker 1: talk that you got to the point where you wanted

1099
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 1: to hurt someone or even hurt yourself. Yeah, finish your life.

1100
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 3: I paint a picture I don't like.

1101
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 2: I don't I don't sleep properly, like I suffer from

1102
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:54,440
Speaker 2: night terrors. But these days they go because I just

1103
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 2: wake up.

1104
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 3: You know.

1105
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 2: When I was in the Supermax, I was this night terror,

1106
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:01,120
Speaker 2: utter night terror. It could be who knows what time.

1107
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:02,719
Speaker 3: You don't know. You've got no window, you don't know

1108
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:03,400
Speaker 3: what time it is.

1109
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:07,120
Speaker 2: There's a little strip out on the side of the thing,

1110
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 2: and if you're laying in your bed, you can't see

1111
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:13,440
Speaker 2: it anyway. Now, one night, whether it was night or not,

1112
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 2: I had this dream, Like I said, I don't dream

1113
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 2: unless they're wrong, you know, And it was so surreal.

1114
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:25,080
Speaker 2: I was in the shower at mum and Dad's old house,

1115
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 2: having a shower, and I was so grateful that I

1116
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 2: was back home. I was kind lay in my bed.

1117
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 2: I was going to go and give me Mama hug.

1118
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:33,320
Speaker 2: I was going to see me kids, and everything was great.

1119
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 2: And I remember waking up and looking at this dirty

1120
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:39,160
Speaker 2: wall and then looking around. I didn't even know what

1121
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 2: time it was and it was like it like, this

1122
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:46,320
Speaker 2: is my life. Who knows what's happening with my life?

1123
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 2: Like I I hadn't been a sentence to anything at

1124
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:52,200
Speaker 2: this point, you know, and I was still diging, trying

1125
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 2: to create stuff, so you could imagine what's going on

1126
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:58,439
Speaker 2: up here. Not so much paranoid, you're just creating stories. Yeah,

1127
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:03,279
Speaker 2: you know, if it wasn't for the support of the

1128
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:06,880
Speaker 2: boys down there, that have could that have been through it?

1129
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:09,560
Speaker 2: You know, over time and you can yell out to

1130
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 2: each other, and it's a massive community going on down there,

1131
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:13,840
Speaker 2: you know, people yelling out to.

1132
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 3: Each other like and you know, and that's support.

1133
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:19,479
Speaker 2: I think without that, I think most of the boys

1134
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:20,480
Speaker 2: would break down there.

1135
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:23,560
Speaker 1: So what what year are we talking that you're in

1136
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 1: in supermax twenty eighteen?

1137
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:29,640
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, all right, so that's when they so they

1138
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 2: did so they built the new MPU, which is the

1139
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:36,160
Speaker 2: segregation unit at Gulben, and they had forty beds. There

1140
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:38,120
Speaker 2: were sixty of us in the super max, so twenty

1141
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:40,640
Speaker 2: of us had to go around the state. I landed

1142
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:43,759
Speaker 2: at Quarie just in segregation and that was it.

1143
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:47,719
Speaker 1: So all right, Well, I think we might might take

1144
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 1: a break here. Yeah, when we get back, we'll get

1145
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:53,360
Speaker 1: you out of the super max. Yeah, you didn't escape

1146
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:56,080
Speaker 1: from supermax. I don't think has anyone escaped from SUPERMX?

1147
00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 3: No, mate, I don't think anyone ever will.

1148
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 1: I know they said that about Engle and Russell Cox

1149
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 1: managed to get his way out.

1150
00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:07,000
Speaker 3: Legendary. That is legendary.

1151
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:10,960
Speaker 1: I appreciate your openness about it, giving us an insight

1152
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 1: into what it's like in prison. We'll call the traditional

1153
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:18,560
Speaker 1: prisons and as in gouldin the old school prisons. When

1154
00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:20,440
Speaker 1: we get back for part two, we're going to talk

1155
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:24,520
Speaker 1: about your experiences in the Macquarie Correctional Center, and I

1156
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:27,439
Speaker 1: think it's good to get a sense of what it's

1157
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 1: like in the traditional prison. And then we'll take you

1158
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 1: into the other prison and talk about how you managed

1159
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:36,759
Speaker 1: to turn your life around and what inspired you to

1160
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:39,359
Speaker 1: turn your life around, and we might even delve into

1161
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:43,000
Speaker 1: summer your artwork that you're brought in, which is quite impressive.

1162
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:44,480
Speaker 3: You get to the good.

1163
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:49,239
Speaker 1: Stuff, Okay, good say we better get people. Make sure

1164
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:51,720
Speaker 1: you listen to part two, because we turn this flake's

1165
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:53,400
Speaker 1: life around, or he turns.

1166
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:53,719
Speaker 3: His life around.

1167
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:57,399
Speaker 1: Definitely stuff, Okay, good stuff, we'll be back soon.

1168
00:54:57,600 --> 00:55:02,399
Speaker 3: Thanks nine