1 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:06,470 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:06,770 --> 00:00:09,890 Sean Aylmer: The last 18 months has been the biggest crisis this 3 00:00:09,890 --> 00:00:12,980 Sean Aylmer: country has dealt with since the Second World War. First 4 00:00:12,980 --> 00:00:16,280 Sean Aylmer: was the public health emergency, which quickly became an economic 5 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:18,950 Sean Aylmer: crisis as well. And the whole time we've looked to 6 00:00:18,950 --> 00:00:21,950 Sean Aylmer: political leaders to get us through. We're now used to 7 00:00:21,950 --> 00:00:26,060 Sean Aylmer: seeing politicians giving daily press conferences. But what we really 8 00:00:26,060 --> 00:00:29,690 Sean Aylmer: haven't seen is a stirring speech, an emotional speech that 9 00:00:29,690 --> 00:00:33,950 Sean Aylmer: unites the country against a common enemy. Professor James Curran 10 00:00:33,950 --> 00:00:36,590 Sean Aylmer: is a professor of modern history at the University of 11 00:00:36,590 --> 00:00:39,890 Sean Aylmer: Sydney and a columnist for the Australian Financial Review. James, 12 00:00:39,979 --> 00:00:40,669 Sean Aylmer: welcome to Fear and Greed. 13 00:00:41,390 --> 00:00:42,320 James Curran: Thanks very much, Sean. 14 00:00:43,220 --> 00:00:45,620 Sean Aylmer: I sort of alluded to it during that introduction, what's 15 00:00:45,620 --> 00:00:48,470 Sean Aylmer: been lacking in the political leadership during the pandemic, but 16 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:49,760 Sean Aylmer: in speeches or elsewhere? 17 00:00:50,150 --> 00:00:53,210 James Curran: Yeah, I think it's a very good point you make. Obviously, 18 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:56,780 James Curran: you know, no previous leaders have had to face a 19 00:00:56,780 --> 00:00:59,810 James Curran: crisis of this kind, as you pointed out in your introduction, 20 00:01:00,110 --> 00:01:03,410 James Curran: kind of crisis since the Second World War. And I 21 00:01:03,410 --> 00:01:07,040 James Curran: guess to cut them some slack, their primary focus has 22 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:11,510 James Curran: been on saving lives and livelihoods. And I think in 23 00:01:11,510 --> 00:01:15,170 James Curran: the initial phase of the coronavirus in 2020, there was 24 00:01:15,170 --> 00:01:17,720 James Curran: a lot of confidence building, I think, you know, certainly 25 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:21,020 James Curran: from the prime minister when he announced JobKeeper, we saw 26 00:01:21,020 --> 00:01:23,930 James Curran: those long queues that were filing in and out of 27 00:01:23,930 --> 00:01:26,870 James Curran: Centrelink offices, which I think haunted a lot of people 28 00:01:26,870 --> 00:01:29,600 James Curran: and of course, brought back some fairly disturbing images from 29 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:33,080 James Curran: the Great Depression in the 1930s. But the longer it's 30 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:37,100 James Curran: gone on, I think, Sean, the longer these lockdowns have 31 00:01:37,100 --> 00:01:40,520 James Curran: held people really in their cage or in their grip, 32 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:43,399 James Curran: what we failed to see, I think, is both prime 33 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:47,330 James Curran: minister and the state premiers, I think, reaching out to 34 00:01:47,330 --> 00:01:50,870 James Curran: at least convey a sense that they empathise with, I think, 35 00:01:50,870 --> 00:01:53,510 James Curran: the sorts of challenges that people are facing in lockdown. 36 00:01:54,110 --> 00:01:56,480 James Curran: Whether it be that sense of isolation, whether it be 37 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:59,660 James Curran: small businesses who've simply had to close their doors, their 38 00:01:59,660 --> 00:02:03,080 James Curran: businesses have collapsed as a result of these lockdowns. There 39 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:05,360 James Curran: really hasn't been an attempt to sort of appeal to 40 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:09,950 James Curran: the common good or I think to sort of reassure 41 00:02:09,950 --> 00:02:13,670 James Curran: Australians that our leaders are charting a way out of 42 00:02:13,669 --> 00:02:15,919 James Curran: this crisis. And by that, I mean giving us a 43 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:18,410 James Curran: sense of what the country is going to look like. 44 00:02:18,650 --> 00:02:20,900 James Curran: How are we going to hold together? There just, look, 45 00:02:20,900 --> 00:02:23,270 James Curran: there just hasn't been, I think, that ability to sort 46 00:02:23,270 --> 00:02:27,769 James Curran: of try and capture a sense of national purpose, national 47 00:02:27,770 --> 00:02:29,329 James Curran: will and national confidence. 48 00:02:29,810 --> 00:02:32,899 Sean Aylmer: It must be very difficult across the divide. So obviously, 49 00:02:32,900 --> 00:02:35,510 Sean Aylmer: Scott Morrison is the obvious one. But Daniel Andrews in 50 00:02:35,510 --> 00:02:39,350 Sean Aylmer: Victoria has been highly criticised. The Labor leader. Gladys Berejiklian, 51 00:02:39,350 --> 00:02:41,000 Sean Aylmer: had a pretty good run, though, is struggling a bit 52 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,240 Sean Aylmer: more now. Mark McGowan in Western Australia and Annastacia Palaszczuk in 53 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:47,120 Sean Aylmer: Queensland have certainly seemed to have the support of their 54 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,330 Sean Aylmer: community kind of last year at least. It must be very 55 00:02:50,330 --> 00:02:53,840 Sean Aylmer: difficult though to create a speech or something that can actually 56 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:55,010 Sean Aylmer: bring people together? 57 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:57,890 James Curran: Yeah, look, I think that's right. I think we're dealing 58 00:02:57,889 --> 00:03:00,080 James Curran: with a number of issues there. I certainly agree with 59 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,060 James Curran: you that by no means all the fault should be 60 00:03:02,060 --> 00:03:03,800 James Curran: laid at the prime minister's door on this. I mean, 61 00:03:04,010 --> 00:03:07,190 James Curran: in some ways, the premiers have been worse. Daniel Andrews, 62 00:03:07,190 --> 00:03:09,200 James Curran: as far as I know, has never made a speech 63 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:12,950 James Curran: at any funeral or, you know, in announcing an inquiry 64 00:03:13,130 --> 00:03:17,090 James Curran: into who made the fatal decision to outsource quarantine operations 65 00:03:17,090 --> 00:03:20,360 James Curran: to an unknown security force. There's been no kind of 66 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:24,500 James Curran: apology for what happened in aged care homes. Gladys Berejiklian 67 00:03:24,500 --> 00:03:27,890 James Curran: in New South Wales, despite her immigrant family background, never 68 00:03:27,889 --> 00:03:30,860 James Curran: went out. Well, still hasn't gone out to southwest Sydney and, 69 00:03:30,860 --> 00:03:34,030 James Curran: you know, addressed the press conference in Campsie Woolies or 70 00:03:34,030 --> 00:03:37,970 James Curran: a car park at Fairfield Coles to appeal with, you know, 71 00:03:38,090 --> 00:03:42,050 James Curran: mosque and church leaders or Pacifica football players and interpreters 72 00:03:42,260 --> 00:03:45,110 James Curran: to stay at home and get the vax. So they've got, 73 00:03:45,110 --> 00:03:48,620 James Curran: on the one hand, this challenge of the logistical scourge 74 00:03:48,620 --> 00:03:51,620 James Curran: of coronavirus, of trying to sort of wrestle with this 75 00:03:51,620 --> 00:03:56,630 James Curran: daily fog. Right. But I think putting state chauvinism ahead 76 00:03:56,630 --> 00:03:59,930 James Curran: of that kind of appeal. But I also think and that, 77 00:03:59,930 --> 00:04:02,060 James Curran: by the way, I think he's being aided and abetted 78 00:04:02,060 --> 00:04:06,650 James Curran: by very sort of chauvinistic state media's certainly in Western 79 00:04:06,650 --> 00:04:07,910 James Curran: Australia and Queensland. 80 00:04:08,130 --> 00:04:08,450 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. 81 00:04:08,570 --> 00:04:10,820 James Curran: Not to mention New South Wales, but I think, Sean, 82 00:04:10,820 --> 00:04:13,250 James Curran: the point too you make is critical. That is, we're 83 00:04:13,250 --> 00:04:15,830 James Curran: now dealing with a political class that I think in 84 00:04:15,830 --> 00:04:19,100 James Curran: some ways and political advisers that don't have a sense 85 00:04:19,100 --> 00:04:22,489 James Curran: of history, a political class that's forgotten about how to 86 00:04:22,490 --> 00:04:26,480 James Curran: do these things because of the 24/7 news cycle, the 87 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:29,990 James Curran: relentlessness of social media, the way in which social media 88 00:04:29,990 --> 00:04:32,890 James Curran: pulls apart that sense of the common good. You know, 89 00:04:32,900 --> 00:04:35,390 James Curran: we've forgotten that an actual official name of the country 90 00:04:35,390 --> 00:04:37,070 James Curran: is the Commonwealth of Australia. 91 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:37,339 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. 92 00:04:37,770 --> 00:04:40,820 James Curran: Since when have we seen a prime minister like Morrison 93 00:04:40,820 --> 00:04:42,830 James Curran: appealing to the Commonwealth? You know? 94 00:04:43,070 --> 00:04:43,370 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. 95 00:04:43,430 --> 00:04:46,520 James Curran: The words can be found, but you've got to have 96 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:47,989 James Curran: a decent speechwriter to do it. 97 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:53,029 Sean Aylmer: You need Don Watson. Keating's ex...There are not too many of those around. 98 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:56,870 Sean Aylmer: What about internationally? Have there been any standout leaders do you think? 99 00:04:56,900 --> 00:04:58,339 Sean Aylmer: I mean, I must say I have one that comes to 100 00:04:58,339 --> 00:05:01,550 Sean Aylmer: mind immediately and people loathe him, but I'm just interested in 101 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,640 Sean Aylmer: your response. Has there been standouts? 102 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,220 James Curran: Well, I think, you know, we're in the shadow of 103 00:05:07,220 --> 00:05:10,130 James Curran: the Tokyo Olympics, aren't we? You know, if there was 104 00:05:10,130 --> 00:05:13,549 James Curran: a podium for international leadership, it'd be very hard to 105 00:05:13,550 --> 00:05:16,270 James Curran: work out who would get a gold, silver and bronze here. 106 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,100 James Curran: But look, I mean, I think I know where you're going. 107 00:05:19,100 --> 00:05:22,180 James Curran: And that's Boris Johnson right? Yeah. 108 00:05:22,210 --> 00:05:24,730 Sean Aylmer: You may like or dislike, but he's been very clear 109 00:05:24,730 --> 00:05:25,480 Sean Aylmer: in what he wants. 110 00:05:25,900 --> 00:05:28,180 James Curran: He's very clear, and he's had the courage to go 111 00:05:28,180 --> 00:05:31,870 James Curran: through and follow through with the opening up. Now, admittedly, 112 00:05:31,870 --> 00:05:34,989 James Curran: the urgency in the vaccination rates was there because of 113 00:05:34,990 --> 00:05:37,960 James Curran: the massive number of daily cases, and it's still got 114 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,479 James Curran: a high number of daily cases. But, yeah, he's taken 115 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:44,800 James Curran: Britain through to something that approaches the other side. I 116 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:48,190 James Curran: mentioned in my column last week that Emmanuel Macron, again, 117 00:05:48,670 --> 00:05:50,799 James Curran: not a popular leader in France at the moment and 118 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:54,279 James Curran: facing re-election next year. But look, at the very least, 119 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:58,570 James Curran: Macron has been upfront and said we are facing as leaders, 120 00:05:58,570 --> 00:06:02,440 James Curran: we have to face this beast of events. And he 121 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:05,230 James Curran: at least is talking about the kind of society that 122 00:06:05,230 --> 00:06:08,020 James Curran: he wants to try and see emerge on the other 123 00:06:08,020 --> 00:06:12,280 James Curran: side of the pandemic. He's talked about social fragmentation and dislocation. 124 00:06:12,610 --> 00:06:15,339 James Curran: He's talked about how people relate to one another, why 125 00:06:15,339 --> 00:06:18,010 James Curran: there needs to be greater investment in health and education. 126 00:06:18,310 --> 00:06:20,880 James Curran: He's linked at all to climate change. Now, that's a 127 00:06:20,890 --> 00:06:24,580 James Curran: rand ambition. And some, I'm sure, would say it's grandiose. 128 00:06:25,210 --> 00:06:28,120 James Curran: But at the very least, there's a conversation going on 129 00:06:28,450 --> 00:06:31,960 James Curran: about the kind of society that we're going to be 130 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:33,600 James Curran: living in once we come out of the cage. 131 00:06:34,029 --> 00:06:38,620 Sean Aylmer: And previous Australian prime ministers, albeit not in such desperate circumstances, 132 00:06:39,010 --> 00:06:42,099 Sean Aylmer: have made some great speeches on really key topics. 133 00:06:42,589 --> 00:06:46,330 James Curran: Yep, they have. And look, I mean, I think, again, 134 00:06:47,230 --> 00:06:49,419 James Curran: when you think of some of those leaders, I'm thinking 135 00:06:49,420 --> 00:06:53,500 James Curran: of Paul Keating. Once the high court delivered its decision 136 00:06:53,980 --> 00:06:57,370 James Curran: on native title, you know, Keating had to take that 137 00:06:57,370 --> 00:07:00,640 James Curran: by the scruff of the neck enacted into law. And 138 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,940 James Curran: that included, you know, a lot of significant speeches in 139 00:07:03,940 --> 00:07:07,180 James Curran: which he was explaining why this was important to the country, 140 00:07:07,180 --> 00:07:11,020 James Curran: reconciling with its past, but also why this was important 141 00:07:11,020 --> 00:07:14,200 James Curran: to how the country engaged with Asia. Right? How our 142 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,530 James Curran: treatment of the indigenous peoples connected to our image in 143 00:07:17,530 --> 00:07:20,530 James Curran: this region and in the wider world. You know, you 144 00:07:20,530 --> 00:07:25,180 James Curran: think of John Howard over gun reform following the horrific 145 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:30,070 James Curran: Port Arthur massacre in 1996, taking on a hugely powerful 146 00:07:30,070 --> 00:07:34,120 James Curran: lobby in the community, but pushing through. Again with argument, 147 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:37,420 James Curran: I mean, see, look, these politicians were conviction politicians. 148 00:07:37,570 --> 00:07:37,840 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. 149 00:07:37,870 --> 00:07:39,850 James Curran: You know, each of them had been in parliament for 150 00:07:39,850 --> 00:07:43,660 James Curran: nearly 20 years before they became prime minister. They'd been ministers. 151 00:07:43,660 --> 00:07:45,280 James Curran: I mean, in the case of Keating and Howard, they'd 152 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,580 James Curran: both been Treasurer before they became PM. But these people 153 00:07:48,580 --> 00:07:52,090 James Curran: had ideas. And more than that, they had the capacity 154 00:07:52,330 --> 00:07:55,100 James Curran: to convey those ideas to the electorate in a language 155 00:07:55,130 --> 00:07:58,480 James Curran: they understood. You know, that didn't speak above them. I mean, 156 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,690 James Curran: some will say that Keating got too far out ahead 157 00:08:01,690 --> 00:08:04,000 James Curran: of the people with the big picture. But the key 158 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:07,210 James Curran: point is they were prepared to argue the case for 159 00:08:07,210 --> 00:08:11,980 James Curran: reform and they took on the hard tasks. And I think, 160 00:08:11,980 --> 00:08:15,370 James Curran: you know, where is the political courage in the current leadership, 161 00:08:15,670 --> 00:08:19,600 James Curran: particularly in Canberra, to take on these hard tasks of reform? 162 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:22,540 James Curran: As I said last week, I don't know what the 163 00:08:22,540 --> 00:08:23,980 James Curran: Scott Morrison project is. 164 00:08:24,230 --> 00:08:24,430 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. 165 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:26,380 James Curran: Now, he's had a number of things that have faced 166 00:08:26,380 --> 00:08:30,520 James Curran: him in his prime ministership, the bushfire crisis, the MeToo movement. Now, this. 167 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:33,310 James Curran: He's had a lot of big things thrown at him 168 00:08:33,429 --> 00:08:37,600 James Curran: by big beasts of events. But as far as I'm concerned, 169 00:08:37,809 --> 00:08:39,819 James Curran: I think he's been found wanting. I don't know what 170 00:08:39,820 --> 00:08:41,830 James Curran: he wants to do with the political power that he has. 171 00:08:42,070 --> 00:08:44,350 James Curran: And he may well have that after the next election still. 172 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,860 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. I mean, I'm now thinking as you talk about this, James. 173 00:08:48,460 --> 00:08:50,110 Sean Aylmer: I mean, I think of Rudd and I think of 174 00:08:50,110 --> 00:08:55,689 Sean Aylmer: sorry and Gillard's misogyny and Abbott's conservatism. Most leaders have 175 00:08:55,690 --> 00:08:58,930 Sean Aylmer: some calling card that years later you think back on. 176 00:08:59,740 --> 00:09:02,620 James Curran: Yep. Yes, I think that's right. They, you know, they have 177 00:09:02,620 --> 00:09:04,809 James Curran: a core set of beliefs or they have, yeah, they 178 00:09:04,809 --> 00:09:07,900 James Curran: have a particular moment that defines them. And I certainly 179 00:09:07,900 --> 00:09:10,330 James Curran: agree with you there that Rudd's apology speech is the 180 00:09:10,330 --> 00:09:13,510 James Curran: standout moment of his prime ministership. I mean, you know, 181 00:09:13,510 --> 00:09:16,990 James Curran: when the global financial crisis hit, Rudd did try and 182 00:09:16,990 --> 00:09:19,240 James Curran: explain what was going on to the people. Not everyone 183 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,660 James Curran: agreed with that diagnosis. But again, there was an effort 184 00:09:22,660 --> 00:09:25,120 James Curran: on the part of the prime minister, I think, to 185 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,850 James Curran: level with the Australian people and try and articulate, well, 186 00:09:27,970 --> 00:09:31,360 James Curran: what does this mean about capitalism? Right? What should we 187 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,110 James Curran: take from this? But I think this is the issue. 188 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:37,090 James Curran: I mean, barring a speech that Malcolm Turnbull gave in 189 00:09:37,090 --> 00:09:40,359 James Curran: Singapore as prime minister about Australian foreign policy and the 190 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,630 James Curran: rise of China, I am struggling to think of a 191 00:09:43,630 --> 00:09:49,330 James Curran: speech that either Abbott, Turnbull or Morrison has given, which 192 00:09:49,390 --> 00:09:52,270 James Curran: you could really look back on and say that defined him. 193 00:09:52,780 --> 00:09:54,030 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. 194 00:09:54,220 --> 00:09:56,440 James Curran: I can't think, I certainly can't think of one with Morrison. 195 00:09:56,740 --> 00:09:59,349 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. And I mean, mind you, sometimes these things, you only 196 00:09:59,350 --> 00:10:02,530 Sean Aylmer: realise it later. Although having said that, the ones we've 197 00:10:02,530 --> 00:10:05,120 Sean Aylmer: just spoken about, you remembered in the moment, you knew they were 198 00:10:05,350 --> 00:10:08,110 Sean Aylmer: great speeches. Stay with me, James. We'll be back in 199 00:10:08,110 --> 00:10:08,470 Sean Aylmer: a minute. 200 00:10:13,470 --> 00:10:16,530 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is James Curran, professor of modern 201 00:10:16,530 --> 00:10:19,199 Sean Aylmer: history at the University of Sydney. Look, while I've got 202 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,350 Sean Aylmer: you, you specialise in the history of Australian and US foreign relations. 203 00:10:22,500 --> 00:10:25,740 Sean Aylmer: I'm just interested in where you think Australia stands now 204 00:10:25,740 --> 00:10:32,130 Sean Aylmer: under the Biden administration vis a vis Trump vis a vis all those administrations beforehand? 205 00:10:33,660 --> 00:10:36,990 James Curran: Well, on September the 1st, we're going to celebrate 70 206 00:10:36,990 --> 00:10:41,370 James Curran: years of the ANZUS treaty. Now, I think we're in 207 00:10:41,370 --> 00:10:45,059 James Curran: this situation now, Sean, where obviously there's been a lot 208 00:10:45,059 --> 00:10:50,550 James Curran: of hand-wringing and hair-pulling over the chaotic and dysfunction that 209 00:10:50,550 --> 00:10:53,819 James Curran: is unfurling before our eyes in Kabul, the collapse of 210 00:10:54,030 --> 00:10:56,610 James Curran: the government in Afghanistan and the return of the Taliban. 211 00:10:56,610 --> 00:10:59,939 James Curran: And there's been an almost, I think, a knee jerk 212 00:11:00,390 --> 00:11:04,650 James Curran: reaction to the Biden administration's decision. I don't think this 213 00:11:04,660 --> 00:11:07,770 James Curran: should have taken us by surprise. I think certainly lots 214 00:11:07,770 --> 00:11:10,530 James Curran: of arguments can be made about whether a residual US 215 00:11:10,530 --> 00:11:15,000 James Curran: force should have been left, but ultimately the withdrawal was coming. 216 00:11:15,570 --> 00:11:19,110 James Curran: We're in this position where publicly we proclaim one hundred 217 00:11:19,110 --> 00:11:21,780 James Curran: years of mateship with the Americans. And the prime minister 218 00:11:22,170 --> 00:11:24,330 James Curran: at the White House a couple of years ago said 219 00:11:24,330 --> 00:11:28,170 James Curran: we will have 100 years more of mateship. But privately, 220 00:11:28,170 --> 00:11:31,740 James Curran: I think we're more doubtful than ever of whether America 221 00:11:31,740 --> 00:11:34,350 James Curran: has the capacity or the will for global leadership anymore. 222 00:11:34,770 --> 00:11:37,350 James Curran: You know, there is a country that is broken within. 223 00:11:37,710 --> 00:11:43,230 James Curran: There is a country where political rancour and toxic partisanship, 224 00:11:43,620 --> 00:11:47,100 James Curran: whilst it's always been part of politics, has reached an 225 00:11:47,100 --> 00:11:50,460 James Curran: entirely new level. We have doubts here, I think, though 226 00:11:50,490 --> 00:11:54,210 James Curran: you'll never hear them publicly expressed by political leaders in Canberra. 227 00:11:54,660 --> 00:11:57,030 James Curran: But we have doubts here about whether America is up 228 00:11:57,030 --> 00:11:59,910 James Curran: for it. Some are grateful that they're out of South 229 00:11:59,910 --> 00:12:03,390 James Curran: Asia and Afghanistan so that they can focus more on China. 230 00:12:03,750 --> 00:12:06,569 James Curran: And China has to be faced regardless. But I think 231 00:12:06,809 --> 00:12:10,350 James Curran: on the 70th anniversary of ANZUS, there are more doubts 232 00:12:10,350 --> 00:12:12,510 James Curran: than the public rhetoric will allow for. 233 00:12:12,780 --> 00:12:15,119 Sean Aylmer: I always think it's interesting with these relationships, how much it 234 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,640 Sean Aylmer: does come down to the leader? Now, I'm not sure 235 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,620 Sean Aylmer: that Joe Biden would remember Scott Morrison's name. I mean, 236 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:22,739 Sean Aylmer: Bob Hawke turned great stories. You know, Bob Hawke, a 237 00:12:22,740 --> 00:12:25,050 Sean Aylmer: real lefty, was great mates actually with Ronald Reagan, who 238 00:12:25,050 --> 00:12:27,950 Sean Aylmer: was as conservative as they came. They just liked each other. 239 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,840 Sean Aylmer: They just got on. It's amazing how that really seems 240 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:31,319 Sean Aylmer: to matter. 241 00:12:31,620 --> 00:12:35,030 James Curran: Yeah, it does. The personal chemistry between leaders is important. 242 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,380 James Curran: I mean, John Howard had that with George W. Bush. 243 00:12:37,590 --> 00:12:41,339 James Curran: You know, Paul Keating had it with Bill Clinton. Certainly, 244 00:12:41,340 --> 00:12:45,040 James Curran: Harold Holt had it with LBJ. And that does matter. 245 00:12:45,059 --> 00:12:47,190 James Curran: I mean, the Biden administration is going to keep heaping 246 00:12:47,190 --> 00:12:51,059 James Curran: pressure on Morrison over climate change, that's for sure. They 247 00:12:51,059 --> 00:12:55,530 James Curran: will have noted, I think, the proximity of Morrison to Trump. 248 00:12:55,830 --> 00:12:58,740 James Curran: But I think Morrison really didn't have an alternative. You've 249 00:12:58,740 --> 00:13:00,330 James Curran: got to deal with the leader of the free world, 250 00:13:00,330 --> 00:13:03,450 James Curran: whatever it throws up at you. But the relationship between 251 00:13:03,450 --> 00:13:06,660 James Curran: leaders is critical. But let's see how this plays out. 252 00:13:06,690 --> 00:13:09,990 James Curran: Morrison was due to go to Washington for the 70th anniversary. 253 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:12,000 James Curran: That's clearly not happening. And there was meant to be 254 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,540 James Curran: a meeting of the Quadrilateral Security Dialogue with the leaders 255 00:13:15,540 --> 00:13:18,059 James Curran: of India, Japan and the United States. That will have 256 00:13:18,059 --> 00:13:21,510 James Curran: to happen virtually. But I think Australians would be very 257 00:13:21,510 --> 00:13:25,650 James Curran: worried at the political level about the direction of the 258 00:13:25,650 --> 00:13:28,650 James Curran: Biden administration in terms of US global leadership. But again, 259 00:13:28,650 --> 00:13:32,700 James Curran: we shouldn't really be mystified by this, because Biden always 260 00:13:32,700 --> 00:13:36,089 James Curran: said that he was interested in a middle-class foreign policy; 261 00:13:36,100 --> 00:13:39,780 James Curran: what was good for the American middle class. Now he's 262 00:13:39,780 --> 00:13:43,530 James Curran: rebuilding America at home. That's a long struggle. And that 263 00:13:43,530 --> 00:13:45,569 James Curran: means an America that is probably going to be less 264 00:13:45,570 --> 00:13:48,870 James Curran: engaged if not drifting towards isolationism. 265 00:13:49,500 --> 00:13:51,179 Sean Aylmer: James, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 266 00:13:51,330 --> 00:13:51,870 James Curran: My pleasure. 267 00:13:52,290 --> 00:13:54,750 Sean Aylmer: That was James Curran, professor of modern history at the 268 00:13:54,750 --> 00:13:57,660 Sean Aylmer: University of Sydney. This is the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. 269 00:13:57,690 --> 00:13:59,760 Sean Aylmer: Join me every morning for the full Fear and Greed 270 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:02,610 Sean Aylmer: podcast with all the business news you need to know. 271 00:14:02,820 --> 00:14:04,560 Sean Aylmer: I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.