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Speaker 1: Hello, thanks for listening to the show. This is better

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Speaker 1: than Yesterday. That's what the podcast is called. Useful tools,

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Speaker 1: useful conversations to help make your day to day better

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Speaker 1: than yesterday. Every episode since twenty thirteen, twice a week

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Speaker 1: since twenty thirteen. That's a long time, my Naxosh Ginzburg.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Thanks for being part of I'm glad

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Speaker 1: you're here. I'm a one, am I I am a

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Speaker 1: I'm a dad, I'm a stepdad, I'm a husband. I

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Speaker 1: am the poop picker, upperer of two very noisy barkie

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Speaker 1: kavoodles who, despite all the fluff and bluster, do nothing

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Speaker 1: to protect our home from possums.

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Speaker 2: But I'm glad you're a part of it.

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Speaker 1: We're taking a break over the summer. I hope you

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Speaker 1: are too, but I didn't want to leave you without

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Speaker 1: something for your ear, something to think about. So we're

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Speaker 1: getting the most well received, most downloaded, most bestly fed

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Speaker 1: back episodes once with the most feedback I don't even

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Speaker 1: know from the last twelve months, and we're you know,

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Speaker 1: putting it back on the shelf and letting people have

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Speaker 1: a good squeeze at them again. And so I'm going

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Speaker 1: to open this one. It's quite a big question. It's

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Speaker 1: a doozy I reckon, are you moving toward the kind

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Speaker 1: of life you want? He tells you, I was a

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Speaker 1: big one. Are you?

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Speaker 2: Are you?

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Speaker 1: Look only you can answer that question. But my guest

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Speaker 1: today is here to help you make sense of that answer.

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Speaker 1: Today I'm joined by Dr Emily Musgrove. That Dr Emily,

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Speaker 1: the one from the Imperfects. She is amazing. She's here

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Speaker 1: to help us answer the question are you moving toward

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Speaker 1: the kind of life that you want? If not, you

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Speaker 1: might be feeling stuck. And this episode, issially it's a

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Speaker 1: mental health masterclass. This episode, Doctor Emily takes us through

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Speaker 1: the things that keep us stuck, from our emotions to

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Speaker 1: old stories about our life and ways and that we

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Speaker 1: expect the world to work. She also shares plenty of

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Speaker 1: really simple ways and some useful tips and tools from

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Speaker 1: her brand new book It's called Unstuck, a guid defining

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Speaker 1: your way forward to the life you want to live.

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Speaker 1: It's a brilliant, brilliant asset and a great toolbox this episode,

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Speaker 1: and I'm grateful to give it another run. I hope

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Speaker 1: it helps you, certainly help me enjoy Hey, thanks for

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Speaker 1: coming in. Sorry late, it's okay.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate that. What are you doing on the East Coast?

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Speaker 1: Like, how did you get time away from the small

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Speaker 1: people that wake up early?

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Speaker 3: Well, that's a good question. I don't know. This is

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Speaker 3: the longest time I will have been away from them, actually,

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Speaker 3: like they're super excited for me, and I'm excited, but

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Speaker 3: also you know, holding at the same time, like a

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Speaker 3: missing them part, Like if they could just be out there,

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Speaker 3: they'd be lovely.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but then blackout curtains and hotel rooms and oh

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Speaker 1: that's a dream. You know, the people know you because

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Speaker 1: of podcasts, but you know you became what you are

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Speaker 1: well before podcasts existed.

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Speaker 2: Why was it that made you want to go towards

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Speaker 2: mental health as a career.

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Speaker 3: Oh that's a long Like, that's a long story.

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Speaker 2: We have a.

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Speaker 1: Podcast, we have Tom. I know I was late, but

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Speaker 1: you know, if that's the only answer get I'll be

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Speaker 1: happy with you.

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Speaker 3: I've been fascinating, like absolutely fascinated about like what it

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Speaker 3: means to be humans since I was probably like seven

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Speaker 3: or eight. I just find it so fascinating.

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Speaker 2: Hang on, wait, wait, wait, so you're seven or eight?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what's the question that pops in your head that

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Speaker 1: makes you, as an adult go, I've been fascinated with

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Speaker 1: being a human since I was that all.

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Speaker 2: What was the moment.

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Speaker 3: I have memories of being probably in like year three

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Speaker 3: or year four, and we have like this weird introduction

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Speaker 3: to like philosophy, like as like a like a little kid,

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Speaker 3: and I just remember, like I just remember my brain

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Speaker 3: go like whoa what would that person do? And I

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Speaker 3: think it's just I've just always been really curious and

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Speaker 3: that sticks out like that particular like small introduction to philosophy. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and then the.

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Speaker 1: Difference between like a utilitarian approach or something like that.

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Speaker 3: More like moral dilemmas, like this person's presenter with this option,

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Speaker 3: but if they do this, then they won't get this.

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Speaker 3: And I just thinking like, oh, what would you do?

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Speaker 3: What would you do? And that was just like a

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Speaker 3: little eight year old me that was like thinking that way,

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Speaker 3: I think.

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Speaker 2: But that's extraordinary.

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Speaker 1: You have this, you actually have a recollection of when

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Speaker 1: you can kind of point to that probably happened before that,

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Speaker 1: but like my theory one kind of at least there

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Speaker 1: by then.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe I think I also have a feeling like

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Speaker 3: I just remembered the feeling of being interested, like right, yeah,

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Speaker 3: and that that's the same feeling I get when I

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Speaker 3: actually getting she is what I says when like when

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Speaker 3: I'm sitting with the client because like I just want

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Speaker 3: to I'm just so curious, like I want to know

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Speaker 3: what this person's experience is like, and that that that's

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Speaker 3: like a flow state, like really like when I'm there,

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Speaker 3: like when I'm in like in the mode of therapy,

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Speaker 3: that's the that's the feeling. I think that probably went

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Speaker 3: back like way way way long ago. Yeah, But I

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Speaker 3: also think that there's probably like even some temperament stuff

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Speaker 3: in there, like and family of origin and stuff like

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Speaker 3: I'm a long, long time people pleaser, and I like

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Speaker 3: I know that that part of that is like an

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Speaker 3: atuvement to other people's emotions, and so I don't I

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Speaker 3: think I was repeatedly told like in childhood and definitely

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Speaker 3: an adolescence. I'm a really good listener, and I think

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Speaker 3: like that that message, when it gets kind of told repeatedly,

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Speaker 3: then probably intuitively opens up these questions like what am

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Speaker 3: I going to do?

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Speaker 1: When you're first out there in your training and you

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Speaker 1: are presented with someone who's clearly distressed kid twenty two.

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Speaker 1: Maybe what's that like, the first time you realize I

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Speaker 1: could really mess this up?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Oh it's terrifying. Gosh. I remember it so vividly

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Speaker 3: in training and the first time someone expressed like suicidal thoughts,

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Speaker 3: and I was just like, I'm not equipped. I have

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Speaker 3: no idea, and like all your instincts are like I

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Speaker 3: just want to say something that will help them feel better,

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Speaker 3: but it's not my words, like, and I think that's

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Speaker 3: the learning is like it's never my words that are

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Speaker 3: going to stop someone from going down that pathway, it's

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Speaker 3: something else. And that took I think that took a

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Speaker 3: long time to really recognize. Yeah, but yes, absolutely so.

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Speaker 3: It's eye opening when you first get exposed to like

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Speaker 3: the breadth of like lived experiences, and with that comes

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Speaker 3: like quite a lot of terror.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And once you start thinking about it as well,

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Speaker 1: these are the people that have sought help.

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Speaker 3: And the people that are seeking help also have the

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Speaker 3: means to seek help. This is the being human part. Ryan,

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Speaker 3: like that all of us will encounter something, but some

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Speaker 3: of us will encounter significantly more than others, and it's

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Speaker 3: often those people that don't have the access or the

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Speaker 3: means to actually seek the help.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you'll sit.

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Speaker 1: There and someone will unload on you something that is

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Speaker 1: like heavy duty, and then you go home and you

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Speaker 1: got to be around your family, and can you give

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Speaker 1: us an idea of how you maintain what you need

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Speaker 1: to maintain so you can be of service to others.

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Speaker 2: Doing this work.

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Speaker 3: Meditation practice for me is really important some sort of

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Speaker 3: some sort of pausing. So like when I leave my office,

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Speaker 3: for example, if I was on autopilot, which is very

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Speaker 3: like I very commonly could be, I will get in

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Speaker 3: the car, turn on a podcast or I'll turn on music,

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Speaker 3: and I've shifted from sitting in a space with other

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Speaker 3: people's pain and distress, concentrating listening, and then I've moved

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Speaker 3: into autopilot into being in the car, going through the motions,

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Speaker 3: more talking, more noise. I get into the door, my

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Speaker 3: kids are very very excited to see me, that it's dinner, bath,

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Speaker 3: all that stuff. At no point during that time have

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Speaker 3: I been able to stop and pause. So sometimes, like

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Speaker 3: when I get in the car, I will take a breath,

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Speaker 3: slow down, and I won't listen to anything because I

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Speaker 3: actually just need a moment to let this settle and

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Speaker 3: to be able to kind of ground in my body

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Speaker 3: it even just to notice, like, oh, this was a

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Speaker 3: heavy day today, Like this was there was a lot

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Speaker 3: of pain here, and I need to honor it, like

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Speaker 3: I need to honor that, Like it's the stuff that

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Speaker 3: we experience as humans is like is unbelievable. Like the

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Speaker 3: pain and the struggle that we encounter can be immensely

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Speaker 3: like excruciatingly distressing. But I also need to be able

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Speaker 3: to contain it. And so like I give it some space,

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Speaker 3: have a bit of quiet, and then I always take

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Speaker 3: your breath and like then we move into the next

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Speaker 3: part of the day.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I've you know, I'm not alone in this, but

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Speaker 1: I found talk therapy to be extraordinarily transformative in my life.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes it's worked just by itself.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, sometimes I've needed a bit of the old selective

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Speaker 1: serotoniny uptaken and HI better listen to the gears off

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Speaker 1: a bit so I can so things can stick and

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Speaker 1: allow the thought patterns to kick in.

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Speaker 2: Obviously, when you're in that one on one thing.

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Speaker 1: The biggest thing about psychology is very effective, but it's

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Speaker 1: so hard to replicate at scale. There's one on one

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Speaker 1: like that's it you've only you can only do so

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Speaker 1: many in a day, you only do seventy a week

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Speaker 1: before you blow out. And then you also people don't

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Speaker 1: realize it. You also have to go in debrief for

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Speaker 1: at least like an ambulance driver at the end of

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Speaker 1: a shift, to make sure you're doing the right thing.

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Speaker 1: So what then, is behind I'm not going to be

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Speaker 1: able to get to everybody. I better write some of

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Speaker 1: this stuff down and at least that can get out there.

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Speaker 1: Why write it down? You know?

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Speaker 3: That was kind of part of my, I guess motivation

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Speaker 3: for writing a book was this kind of deep acknowledgment

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Speaker 3: that you know, we just can't reach everybody, and and

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Speaker 3: also that this was you know, I think I can

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Speaker 3: write this in the book. Then it's not like I

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Speaker 3: said before, it's not my words that will that will

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Speaker 3: cultivate change. It's actually how willing you are to encounter

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Speaker 3: yourself in that process. And so the book, I guess,

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Speaker 3: is like this invitation or maybe like a gateway to

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Speaker 3: really turning towards your own experience, and that is something

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Speaker 3: that you could hold on to, like you could have

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Speaker 3: it with you and maybe there's a readiness or maybe

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Speaker 3: there isn't. But maybe at some point when you're really

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Speaker 3: deep in a struggle, that they're is a resource that

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Speaker 3: you could at least kind of turn to as a like,

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Speaker 3: even as a stepping stone to more or bigger help.

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Speaker 3: I think, Yeah, I've.

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Speaker 1: Still got the first psychology book I was given by

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Speaker 1: a psychologist when I was twenty six, David Burns Feeling Good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, yeah, you know, the classic.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and as recently as two days ago, it's on

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Speaker 1: my desk right now.

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Speaker 2: I open it up. I was like, how diem is

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Speaker 2: that the first time round?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: You read stuff, you know, and you find things. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes I think it must be a quirk of who

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Speaker 1: we are, good kirk of what makes us human is

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Speaker 1: that if we feel that we're not doing and behaving

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Speaker 1: the same way as others. I don't know if it's internalized,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but we feel that we're busted, we're broken,

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Speaker 1: all right? What can we get out of going? Maybe

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Speaker 1: I'm just stuck? How helped me get from I'm broken too?

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Speaker 2: Stuck?

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Speaker 3: As a reframe, yeah, I think it's really really integral

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Speaker 3: actually and really and really important reframe because like when

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Speaker 3: we think about this notion and this is so common,

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Speaker 3: right that you get this like this internal dialogue here,

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Speaker 3: I'm broken, I need to be fixed. There's something very

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Speaker 3: bad about me. And it comes with this kind of

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Speaker 3: this belief that's very often held from a young age,

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Speaker 3: this kind of notion of defectiveness, that I am defective,

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Speaker 3: I am broken, and from that place it's really hard

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Speaker 3: for us to make change because we then need to

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Speaker 3: look for ways to be fixed. But I think what

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Speaker 3: feels really very relevant in this work is that pain

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Speaker 3: can't be fixed because pain is normal and pain is

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Speaker 3: part of, like us, being human. So if we can

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Speaker 3: actually reframe this is there's nothing broken about you. You're

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Speaker 3: a normal human being here with a beating heart, breathing

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Speaker 3: into your lungs. Everything about you is actually completely normal,

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Speaker 3: except that you're really stuck in this struggle with pain.

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Speaker 3: And that's kind of what we work with and that

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Speaker 3: I think, or my hopefulness is that engenders like a

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Speaker 3: potential glimmer of hope or a potential that there is

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Speaker 3: action that I can take.

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Speaker 1: What can stuck look like for the purpose of for

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Speaker 1: the rest of our conversation, we could refer back to it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So I think it looks like a myriad of presentations.

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Speaker 3: I guess like traditionally or traditionally you'd probably see stuck

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Speaker 3: as kind of going through the motions, being an autopilot,

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Speaker 3: feeling unsatisfied, feeling like what's the point? So that's kind

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Speaker 3: of like more this kind of classical presentation of being stuck.

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Speaker 3: But we can also see stuck as being stuck in

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Speaker 3: patterns of negative thinking, for example, or stuck in patterns

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Speaker 3: of avoidance, stuck making decisions. So it really kind of

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Speaker 3: represents basically as struggle with some kind of pain that's here,

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Speaker 3: or it represents a numbness and a disconnection.

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Speaker 1: When you are stuck. What rule does noticing play in

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Speaker 1: that space of being stuck? And if we do find

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Speaker 1: ourselves stuck, what are some things we might want to

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Speaker 1: look out for?

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Speaker 3: Then? I love the noticing word. I'm sure, yeah, I

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Speaker 3: use it all the time because like it's the foundation

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Speaker 3: of change, and you know, quite simply that we just

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Speaker 3: can't change anything if we're not aware or observing what

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Speaker 3: our experience is. But we don't like to notice because

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Speaker 3: it feels really painful.

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Speaker 2: Especially if I've been a shit person.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, So if you turn towards this, like what

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Speaker 3: sounds like shame for example. I mean it's it's it

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Speaker 3: can be deeply destabilizing, like to hold this feeling here,

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Speaker 3: but it's also information and I think that's what we

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Speaker 3: miss if we're not noticing. So the noticing requires us

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Speaker 3: to pause and to be still and to slow down,

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Speaker 3: but we don't like doing that because it actually exposes

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Speaker 3: us to the to the uncomfortable feeling.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So there's lots of different processes or ways in

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Speaker 3: which we get there, but some sort of some sort

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Speaker 3: of practice that allows us to pause is like a

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Speaker 3: really good starting point.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about the importance of having an action step

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Speaker 1: when you're in that state, because it can feel permanent

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Speaker 1: and it can feeling will ever ever be different?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you're absolutely right. It is so important having that

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Speaker 3: action step. And the action step can be so minute.

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Speaker 3: It can be you know, if you're, for example, in

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Speaker 3: this kind of state of almost like immobilization and like

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Speaker 3: really paralyzed. I'm so depressed, I'm feeling so overwhelmed, it

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Speaker 3: may be literally what is my next step? My next

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Speaker 3: step is to put my foot out of the bed,

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Speaker 3: and then what is the next one? So it's like,

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Speaker 3: how do we actually move even with the body in

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Speaker 3: the direction that would be important to me. On a

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Speaker 3: bigger scale, obviously, it can be like, all right, so

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Speaker 3: today I'm going to call my friend. That's an action step.

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Speaker 3: We need to make it manageable and achievable and sustainable.

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Speaker 3: But the emotion of like, we don't make change in stasis.

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Speaker 3: We can't grow in stasis. We only grow with movement.

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Speaker 3: So that's kind of quite an integral part of that.

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Speaker 1: I think, Kim, when I was when I was real bad,

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Speaker 1: I would the day before because I found that if

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Speaker 1: I was in a decision point, I would get just

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Speaker 1: complete paralysis in the moment.

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Speaker 2: So the night before all I would write down almost.

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Speaker 1: Like a call it like an hourglass kind of list,

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Speaker 1: like if grain of the hourglass going through, I would like,

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Speaker 1: as you mentioned, right foot off the bed, left foot

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Speaker 1: over the bed, stand up, go to the toilet. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: get out the coffee beans, grind the coffee beans like

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Speaker 1: that granula, and I would just tick them off the list.

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Speaker 1: And I don't have to make any choices yet, I'm

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Speaker 1: just doing I've already picked out the T shirt, right,

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Speaker 1: get out the door, go for the run.

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Speaker 2: And I found it after a couple of.

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Speaker 1: Days of doing that, everything felt a lot easier because

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Speaker 1: I wasn't making the choice in the moment. I was

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Speaker 1: so overwhelmed that I was unable. I knew and wanted

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Speaker 1: a couple of coffee, but I would just sit there

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Speaker 1: and stay in my kitchen for an hour.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because there were too many steps, you know, in

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Speaker 3: that moment, and that feeling in the body of paralysis

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Speaker 3: is so distressing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And you don't know you're in it.

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Speaker 1: That's the other really tricky thing. You don't realize you're

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Speaker 1: in it. And I'm kind of grateful in many ways

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Speaker 1: now that that sort of stuff was happening to me

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Speaker 1: before the algorithmic changes in certain scrolly apps. So you

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Speaker 1: never have to actually be with that yes feeling, Yes,

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Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, I had a phone that's battery still

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Speaker 1: in the last all day, you know. Yeah, I would

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Speaker 1: just have to be sometimes sometimes only five ten minutes

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Speaker 1: because I'll go open a laptop.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But now you don't even have to be with that.

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Speaker 3: No. No, And there's a real cost of that.

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Speaker 2: What's the cost there, Well, the.

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Speaker 3: Cost is disconnection of information. Oh god, there's so many things, like,

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Speaker 3: there's so many things. If we are unaware and we're

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Speaker 3: constantly occupied with other things. It's like this sounds a

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Speaker 3: bit weird, but like your mind and your body are

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Speaker 3: constantly giving its information, but we don't know how to

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Speaker 3: read it anymore, Like we just we're so disconnected. So

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Speaker 3: if I notice like the an inkling of like a

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Speaker 3: feeling of anxiousness in my body, you know, one of

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Speaker 3: two things can happen. We either get so overwhelmed by

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Speaker 3: that like that it triggers like a massive spiral of

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Speaker 3: further panic and hypervigilance. Or we move into distract me

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Speaker 3: as soon as possible, Distract me with a substance, distract

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Speaker 3: distract me with the phone, most commonly, distract me with

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Speaker 3: like excessive exercise. I mean, there are so many, so

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Speaker 3: many ways in which being with this is so intolerable,

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Speaker 3: but inevitably it comes like it comes back at you

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Speaker 3: in some other way, Like there's a cost to your relationships,

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Speaker 3: to vitality, to your work, and also do you miss

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Speaker 3: out on all the good stuff? So like when we

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Speaker 3: spend so much time avoiding it, not only do we

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Speaker 3: avoid the discomfort, we also then throw out our access

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Speaker 3: to the all the wonderful emotions and wonderful, joyful experiences

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Speaker 3: that we can have.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, is that what you describe with the book is

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Speaker 1: experience experiential avoidance?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, right, Yeah, so experiential avoidance is basically like our

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Speaker 3: natural drive to avoid feeling basically and avoid feeling unpleasant

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Speaker 3: experiences in the body, unpleasant thoughts.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what happens to us the longer that we avoid

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Speaker 1: sitting with those feelings.

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Speaker 3: Oh like in my experience, the more we avoid, the

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Speaker 3: more that takes us down the pathway of significant mental

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Speaker 3: health issues. Really absolutely, it's like it's experiential avoidance or

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Speaker 3: just avoidance, even just naming it plainly is that is

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Speaker 3: associated with almost all mental health conditions. It's a key

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Speaker 3: feature of almost all of them. The more we avoid

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Speaker 3: the pain, the bigger the struggle, and the greater the suffering.

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Speaker 3: So even if it's not like a really simple basis

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Speaker 3: like this is such a simple one. If you avoid

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Speaker 3: a deadline that's coming up, like with the work required

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Speaker 3: for a deadline, in the short term, it's going to

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Speaker 3: bring you relief front yep not, don't still today, don't

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Speaker 3: worry about it, I'll do something else. But then as

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Speaker 3: time goes on, the more you avoid the bigger the pressure,

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Speaker 3: the less time, the more work you have to do,

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Speaker 3: the more distress you feel. I mean, it's like a

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Speaker 3: really basic example, but if we can apply that to

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Speaker 3: almost all other experiences of avoidance, so in the longer term,

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Speaker 3: the avoidance actually causes like more suffering.

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Speaker 1: I think it's important to describe and really talk about

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Speaker 1: what you just I guess will warned to solve how

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Speaker 1: can you get from I'm not filling out this report

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Speaker 1: today to now dealing with mental illness.

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Speaker 3: So if you think about basically what what avoidance does

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Speaker 3: is that it essentially kind of moves you away from

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Speaker 3: the direction of your values. You know, when you know,

397
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Speaker 3: if we're to do something like that like avoid the deadline,

398
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Speaker 3: and we apply this to many many other circumstances in

399
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Speaker 3: our life, we're actually moving further and further away from

400
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Speaker 3: the life that we want to lead, basically. And it's

401
00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,280
Speaker 3: when there's this big gap between where you are and

402
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Speaker 3: where you want to be that sits like that there's

403
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Speaker 3: this big gap here. It actually kind of represents this

404
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:30,080
Speaker 3: kind of exposure to mental health issues. I'm here in

405
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Speaker 3: this state of suffering. I want to be over here

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Speaker 3: where I'm experiencing vitality and engagement and presence. But in

407
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Speaker 3: order to get the engagement and the presence, we have

408
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Speaker 3: to turn towards what we're avoiding, and we don't want

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Speaker 3: to do that, which, of course makes like, of course

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Speaker 3: it makes sense. I guess what I'm saying is that

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Speaker 3: the harder we work to avoid feeling pain, the bigger

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Speaker 3: problems will get, and those problems will lead us down

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Speaker 3: the pathway of experiencing greater mental illness.

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Speaker 1: So what do you say to someone who's like, well,

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Speaker 1: that's all well and good for you. You're not dealing

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Speaker 1: with what I'm doing with I'm just going to crack

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Speaker 1: this beer and I'll be just fine.

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Speaker 3: To be honest, if that was the case, I would

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Speaker 3: absolutely normalize that. I'm like, yes, like, of course you

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Speaker 3: feel of course you feel better, and that tells me

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Speaker 3: about how much suffering is here, like that you want

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Speaker 3: to get rid of this. So we're kind of really

423
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Speaker 3: starting off with this, like really like deep acknowledgment that

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Speaker 3: when you have the beer it takes that pain away.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, I get that. But then i'd look at, okay,

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Speaker 3: but what is the cost of that to you? So

427
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Speaker 3: what's the cost of that to you in your relationship

428
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Speaker 3: with your partner. What's the cost of that to your health?

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Speaker 3: How do you feel the next day? How able are

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Speaker 3: you to show up to work? So we kind of

431
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Speaker 3: really want to look at yes, it makes sense that

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Speaker 3: this is happening, but then let's also look at what's

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Speaker 3: the cost. If there isn't a cost, Like if this

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Speaker 3: is like a behavior that is more flexible, it's not

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Speaker 3: happening all the time, then we go, you know what,

436
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Speaker 3: that's fine. It's more when it's like this rigid pattern here,

437
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,680
Speaker 3: I'm doing this every day or I'm doing this frequently.

438
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,320
Speaker 3: When that starts to show up, that's kind of that's

439
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:10,960
Speaker 3: the problem.

440
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,320
Speaker 1: Reaching for a scrolly algorithm app or reaching for a

441
00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,520
Speaker 1: gambling app or something. Rather than go, oh, that person

442
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,320
Speaker 1: didn't text me back yet, I wonder if we had

443
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:21,680
Speaker 1: a good time on the date or not. And I'll

444
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,160
Speaker 1: just you know, throw a massive multi on a Singaporean

445
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,959
Speaker 1: ping pong thing and a Hong Kong trot race and

446
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:28,840
Speaker 1: there's bad mitten matches happening in Indonesia.

447
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,879
Speaker 3: Go yeah, yeah. I mean, like, if you're doing that

448
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 3: every day all the time, that's a problem. If you're

449
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:37,240
Speaker 3: doing it on occasion, you know, like, yes, it makes sense,

450
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:40,639
Speaker 3: and it's not kind of moving you so much away

451
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 3: from the life you want to live. Maybe it's giving

452
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:44,880
Speaker 3: you like a moment of feeling Okay, this is all right, then.

453
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 2: Avoid your feelings responsibly.

454
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:48,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, in monimation exactly.

455
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,960
Speaker 1: So for people who I mean, I'm I'm quite familiar

456
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:55,720
Speaker 1: with the kind of stuff you're talking about, but for

457
00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 1: people who like this might be news to that. Yeah,

458
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,960
Speaker 1: even just describe, you know, it's overwhelming to even face

459
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 1: that this idea, this person didn't text me back, for example,

460
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 1: how do you even walk somebody towards the way that

461
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:13,119
Speaker 1: you can deal with this thing that they want to

462
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 1: avoid so much? Is it again, is it a granular

463
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:17,679
Speaker 1: step that you want to take towards it?

464
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:18,520
Speaker 2: How do you get there?

465
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 3: Yeah? So in the book, I've divided the chapters really

466
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 3: into steps. In reality, in practice, we're doing the steps

467
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 3: kind of all together in some ways, so it's kind

468
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,639
Speaker 3: of an integrated process. But for the ease of kind

469
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,080
Speaker 3: of understanding, Like the first is obviously being able to

470
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 3: have an awareness and cultivating what's called like this observing self.

471
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 3: So the observing self is a metaphor that's commonly used,

472
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:48,960
Speaker 3: and I think it might have been Russ Harris, author

473
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,919
Speaker 3: and therapist who developed this one. Is this notion of

474
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,719
Speaker 3: the observing self is like the blue sky. So the

475
00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:01,919
Speaker 3: sky that is always there, always blue, and it's always clear.

476
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,120
Speaker 3: But what comes across the sky is the weather. And

477
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,440
Speaker 3: so that weather might be like a storm pattern that's

478
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 3: coming across, But if you were to fly above that storm,

479
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:13,879
Speaker 3: we still have this clear blue sky here and that

480
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,159
Speaker 3: remains untouched by the storm and weather patterns that are

481
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 3: coming across. In that observing self, we have a lot

482
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,120
Speaker 3: of difficulty contacting. Usually we're in the storm. Usually we're

483
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 3: in the weather. So it's like when the when the

484
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,160
Speaker 3: weather is clear, we might be feeling fine, but anytime

485
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:30,919
Speaker 3: there's kind of a change in the weather patterns, we

486
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 3: get like really stuck in it. What in some ways

487
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 3: we're working towards is being able to cultivate, like an

488
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 3: atiuman to the fact that there is a part of

489
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 3: you that can observe this weather and if I can

490
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 3: observe it, i am not.

491
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 2: It right yep?

492
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 3: And how do we do that? Yeah? So it's even

493
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:51,920
Speaker 3: very simple, like even in how we use our language.

494
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 3: So something like if I was to say to you, Usha,

495
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,679
Speaker 3: I'm feeling really anxious. What I could do to kind

496
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 3: of cultivate like more of an obser self is very

497
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:06,479
Speaker 3: very simple, is saying, I'm noticing I'm feeling anxious, and

498
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 3: so in there it sounds like it sounds almost like

499
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,479
Speaker 3: laughably simple. Yeah, but when we do that, I mean,

500
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 3: do you notice any difference when we do that?

501
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 2: I yes, I've.

502
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 1: Talked about I'm noticing being the burpie of mental health.

503
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:22,400
Speaker 2: Yea, all right.

504
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,200
Speaker 1: Everyone hates burpies rightly because they suck, and it's pretty

505
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,160
Speaker 1: much ninety something percent of your body will get worked,

506
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 1: and you can do it in a very small, confined space.

507
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 1: You can do it in a van. So I'm noticing

508
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 1: is really for me, that's the burpie your mental fitness.

509
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 1: If you can just a couple of times that I

510
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:39,679
Speaker 1: are sitting alum on my phone, what am I noticing?

511
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 2: I'm noticing on will two pairs of socks.

512
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 1: I can find my warm ones on the motorbike today,

513
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:45,639
Speaker 1: and so most shoes are a little tighter than they

514
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 1: usually are, you know, Yeah, that's interesting. I'm noticing the

515
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 1: top of my tummy, I can feel my pulse on

516
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,120
Speaker 1: the top of my tummy, wonder where that is. I'm

517
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 1: noticing their conditioning's pretty pumping and here today sometimes it's night. Yeah,

518
00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 1: and once you do that, what I talk about it

519
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 1: is now I'm not those feelings.

520
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just observing.

521
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 1: But if I don't take the time to notice them, well,

522
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 1: my feet being too tight in my shoes will raise

523
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 1: my stress levels and cortisol and my tummy. This I

524
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 1: might not realize that I'm now making choices from a

525
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 1: place of being stressed out and those aren't choices that

526
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 1: would reflect who and what I want to be in

527
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 1: that moment.

528
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's like, that's exactly, that's exactly. You know.

529
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,440
Speaker 3: It's a little bit like if we're not noticing, if

530
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 3: we're stuck on this kind of really in this reactive pattern.

531
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 3: It's a little bit like our emotions or our thoughts

532
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,680
Speaker 3: are sitting in the driver's seed and where the passenger,

533
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 3: and it's like when this happens, when we're not kind

534
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 3: of bringing an achievement or an awareness or a noticing,

535
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 3: it's like that anxiety is driving you in a certain direction,

536
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,199
Speaker 3: and it will drive you in what's called like with

537
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,400
Speaker 3: a narrow focus or what's called like a narrow repertoire

538
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 3: of behaviors. So when we get into this space of reactivity,

539
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,160
Speaker 3: it's like our choices actually really narrow. But what we're

540
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 3: kind of working with with the noticing language is that, Okay,

541
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 3: so we're going to switch seeds and I'm going to

542
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 3: sit in the driver's seed, and my anxiety or my

543
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,640
Speaker 3: sadness or my grief can come along with me. It's

544
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 3: going to sit here in this passenger seed, and we

545
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,439
Speaker 3: will move forward whether this pain is here or not.

546
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 3: It sounds easy in theory, it's really hard in practice.

547
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 3: I really want to acknowledge that.

548
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, it is really hard because we

549
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 1: also want to protect ourselves. Ye, and we want to

550
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 1: make we want to not be the reason that we

551
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 1: feel this way. Yes, generally as humans, we generally we

552
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 1: don't want to be the reason that things don't feel nice.

553
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,400
Speaker 1: We would much prefer it if it was everything else

554
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,680
Speaker 1: was the reason. What's the relationship between what we think

555
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 1: about a situation and what we feel about a situation.

556
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:54,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really complex, actually, and there's quite a lot

557
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 3: of conjecture, like in the empirical literature around you know,

558
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 3: what comes first, where feelings originate, whether they're originating in

559
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 3: the body or they're constructed in the brain, and how

560
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 3: thoughts are related. And I'm just going to like probably

561
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 3: sit on the fence and say that in some ways

562
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 3: they're happening all at the same time. We could say,

563
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 3: if we were to look at the production of emotion,

564
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 3: that it's sensations in the body that are then interpreted

565
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,199
Speaker 3: by the brain, and then emotions are constructed from that,

566
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 3: and that will be based also upon, for example, the

567
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 3: context you're in and also your history of experiences with

568
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 3: similar contexts. So for example, I think I give an

569
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 3: example in the book about sitting an exam, So here

570
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 3: I am about to sit an exam, I'm feeling really anxious,

571
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 3: but that anxiety is produced by a learning history with

572
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 3: previous context where it tells me that I should feel anxious.

573
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 3: It's also based upon my temperament and my biology, and

574
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 3: I will also be based upon what I can see

575
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 3: here so other people being anxious, and it's also based

576
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 3: upon like the thoughts I have about and then we

577
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 3: get all these sensations in the body and they tell

578
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 3: us we should be feeling like something's off here. It's

579
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 3: a complex thing. To kind of make sense of But

580
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 3: for me, like the body is so important. It is

581
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 3: so important in understanding how we work with this this feeling.

582
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 3: And I think, like to come back to your to

583
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 3: your kind of question there around we want to make

584
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 3: it someone else's fault or we want to kind of

585
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 3: externalize responsibility. It actually moves us away from the body.

586
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 3: But if we can come into the body, and I

587
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 3: think it sounds like easy to say in theory, but

588
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 3: if we can come into the body and stay with

589
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 3: what it's telling us, we get access to a lot

590
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 3: more information.

591
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 1: Just taking a moment away from doctor Eli Musgrove to

592
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 1: let you know, I've got to get a couple of

593
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: plugs in for the story Club YouTube channel.

594
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 2: It's up right now.

595
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 1: If you're looking for something interesting to watch, something fresh,

596
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: some Australian stories about living in Australia as an Australian,

597
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,479
Speaker 1: and we have plenty for you. Story Club is a

598
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 1: comedy storytelling show. It's been running since two thousand and nine.

599
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 1: I've been producing it for just over a year. I

600
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 1: film every show and I'm putting the stories up once

601
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 1: a week on YouTube and you can find them in

602
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: the show notes. They are fantastic. That is also where

603
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 1: you can get tickets for the next show, which is

604
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 1: coming up in February. It's on sale right now. And

605
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 1: while you're in those show notes, that's where you can

606
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 1: buy my books.

607
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 2: I wrote books as well.

608
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: Yes, that's where you can get back after the break

609
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 1: of my first book and the brand new one that

610
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 1: I wrote with Campbell Walker.

611
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 2: So what now?

612
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 1: What?

613
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 2: Thank you for being here.

614
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: We've got a little more show to do, but we

615
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 1: do have to play some mands to pay everybody back.

616
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 1: In a moment, when you were describing that situation about

617
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 1: seeing the exam, we may want to make our discomfort

618
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 1: as something else's reason for being there. For the reason

619
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 1: that I feel this comfort is because of something else

620
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: that is not me. Sometimes that he does is like,

621
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 1: now we have no control over if we are handing

622
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 1: over how we feel to the world. Yes, what part

623
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 1: of this scenario you just described do we have control

624
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: over it? And how can we therefore, you know, intervene

625
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 1: perhaps and we still have the exam. It's still a

626
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 1: high pressure situation. Yeah, what can we do in that moment?

627
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 1: And what can we recognize about the way that our

628
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 1: brains and emotions work to change the way things feel.

629
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a really good question. I think you know too.

630
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 3: So I mean, like I think the thing is, there

631
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 3: isn't one there, and this is I really want to

632
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 3: make be clear that there isn't like a five step process, right,

633
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 3: There isn't like a silver bullet to this experience. So

634
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 3: for me, it would be something akin to, first of all,

635
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 3: again like I'm noticing, here is my heart beating, I'm

636
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 3: noticing I'm feeling anxious. And then you know, very commonly

637
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 3: in practice for examples, start to bring in some self

638
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,959
Speaker 3: compassion work and actually really coming into the body and

639
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 3: to notice how this is being felt here. And so

640
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 3: it might be something like placing my hand on my

641
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 3: heart and acknowledging, M, you're really worried and this is

642
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 3: really hard. I'm here for you in this. What is

643
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 3: this information telling you? What do we need to attend

644
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 3: to here? So again it's like slowing this down. What

645
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 3: is the information to be learned? What's my body telling me?

646
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 3: How can I step down from that? Like in a

647
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 3: critic that's probably got a lot to say about that,

648
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 3: that wants to push it away, wants to externalize, how

649
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 3: do I just pause and slow down and then it

650
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 3: might be okay, So what do I need right now?

651
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 3: That's the kind of next question. What is it that

652
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 3: I need? Is it that I need to go and

653
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 3: speak to someone? Is it that I need to move

654
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 3: my body? Is it that I need to go and

655
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 3: lie down? Like? What am I actually needing? That won't

656
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 3: move me into avoidance?

657
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 1: So when I'm in that moment, I can't control that

658
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 1: I'm under exam conditions, but I can actively and deliberately

659
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 1: try to choose like I can use it. I'm noticing again,

660
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 1: I'm noticing that I have a story that I don't

661
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 1: do well.

662
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 2: In these situations.

663
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 1: The work in my experience is okay, does that have

664
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 1: to be true all the time?

665
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 2: Can I make another choice about that?

666
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: Can I see if this is the time that I do.

667
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 2: Better than that? Yeah?

668
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, And just trying to loosen the bolts on those

669
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 1: kind of those kind of rigid expectations and things we

670
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 1: might have learned from the past, like the noticing goes

671
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 1: beyond for me, it goes beyond the body, it goes

672
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 1: goes way.

673
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 2: Is that one.

674
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 1: I'm noticing that because when I was in grade six,

675
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: they said, okay, all right, that's interesting does that a

676
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 1: plan now?

677
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, yeah exactly. And like I even I noticed

678
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 3: as you were, as you were telling that story that

679
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 3: you took a breath. It's like, even like can we make.

680
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 2: In that whole school?

681
00:33:58,600 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 1: Yeah?

682
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, like how do we make room for that? So

683
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 3: like even something like using the breath to give a

684
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 3: space for a start, But then also like yes we

685
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 3: can kind of we can be curious about what the

686
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 3: mind's saying and what happens if I hold really tightly

687
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 3: onto this story. So if I hold really tightly onto this,

688
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:16,320
Speaker 3: like this story that I don't do well in exams,

689
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 3: does it help us if we hold really entirely to

690
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 3: that story? Usually not? And so can we bring a

691
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 3: curiosity like, hm, that's interesting, what if you can be here?

692
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 3: A little story like you can be here? But I'm

693
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 3: actually going to see if this could be an alternative today?

694
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 1: Those stories, though they can we can get in trouble

695
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 1: because sometimes those stories can be a part of our

696
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 1: self identity.

697
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're very, very compelling, and they have in some ways,

698
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,839
Speaker 3: at some points in time probably really served us. So

699
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 3: those stories tend to be usually very long held stories

700
00:34:55,280 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 3: formed often in our early childhood experiences and those stories

701
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 3: at some point, like I said, will have been helpful.

702
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 3: So like the story about being a faalue, for example,

703
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 3: that in childhood may have motivated you to try harder,

704
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 3: or the story that I'm that I'm unlovable again, that

705
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 3: may have motivated or influenced behavior so that you could

706
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 3: create connections or bonds. But usually by the time it

707
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 3: gets to late adolescents and adulthood is that those stories

708
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 3: don't serve us anymore. It someone's like you run out

709
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 3: of steam. You know, I can't be motivated from this

710
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:41,240
Speaker 3: place of scarcity and not enoughness anymore. And me holding

711
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 3: so tightly to those stories is actually causing me. It's

712
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:45,320
Speaker 3: causing me a lot of pain.

713
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 1: And it's everybody's first day understanding that this kind of

714
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:49,800
Speaker 1: stuff can happen.

715
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:50,800
Speaker 2: At some point.

716
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:53,240
Speaker 1: The people who might have just had that, as you mentioned,

717
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 1: a flash of recognition right listening to us right now,

718
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 1: what's the step that they could take listening to this

719
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 1: right now, that I have that about relationships, or I

720
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 1: have that about the way I drive or whatever. I mean.

721
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 3: There are so many things I think sometimes even something

722
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 3: like journaling. I know we speak about journeling a lot

723
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 3: in the mental space, but there's a really good there's

724
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 3: really good.

725
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 1: It's got a bad rap because you can make money

726
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 1: off selling a book that has really nice typesetting and

727
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 1: a beautiful font and great gam white.

728
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 2: Like really good.

729
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: It's not a pencil, it's a journaling pencil exactly.

730
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 2: Because my thoughts are malleable. I can erase it, just

731
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 2: like my story. How can rewrite my scripts and back

732
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:32,839
Speaker 2: and wrong?

733
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 3: And the number of people that will buy it and

734
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 3: not actually ever yeah, yes, you know why people like

735
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 3: we buy the book with this intention, right, But it's

736
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 3: really confronting. To sit down means you have to turn

737
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 3: towards everything that's here, and so that's why people often

738
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 3: don't do it, or they don't even know where to start.

739
00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 1: The size behind it is is compellingly, profoundly positive that

740
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 1: I think there was one study which I did a

741
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 1: whole show about it, which I really love that if

742
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 1: there's something that's really shat you, like something's really bothered you,

743
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 1: even if you just it's better if you handwrite it.

744
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,319
Speaker 1: There's something about the brain and the motor control. Your

745
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: brain gets a feeling that something's finished. Then even if

746
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 1: you just type it out and never look at it again,

747
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 1: just delete it. Yes, you will report a better outcome

748
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: when we're doing that than someone who never did that.

749
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:30,760
Speaker 2: And that's free.

750
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 3: Yes it is. It's available to you now if you

751
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 3: want to use it.

752
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 2: It doesn't take long set that time running front.

753
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And I think it's interesting you said like

754
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 3: something in the brain about like completing it. Yes, And

755
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 3: I think what actually happens is that, like if you

756
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:47,799
Speaker 3: were to go through a process of journaling, maybe like

757
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 3: a really hard experience, is that, like in my experience,

758
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 3: it will start off the emotion might be quite intense,

759
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 3: and then what typically happens, like if you're writing for

760
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 3: a little while, is that often we kind of end

761
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 3: up becoming like our own cheerleader. So it ends up

762
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,840
Speaker 3: kind of coming to a point of a problem solving action.

763
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 3: So it might start off they kind of like moving

764
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 3: through the wave of this emotion, and then we kind

765
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 3: of come to okay, so what am I going to

766
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 3: do about it? And so usually people will find that

767
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 3: by the end of that journaling process, even if it's

768
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 3: just five minutes, is that there's a greater sense of

769
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:26,399
Speaker 3: like agency here, I have some hopefulness. It's not about

770
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 3: getting rid of the emotion at all, but like, how

771
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 3: do we use that information? Like, how do we use

772
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:32,240
Speaker 3: the information from this emotion?

773
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 1: So getting people to want to do this, getting somebody

774
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 1: to want to even just to turn towards the discomfort,

775
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 1: even to even recognize the experiential avoidance can be incredibly,

776
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,720
Speaker 1: incredibly difficult. My mom, she's passed away. She was a doctor,

777
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 1: she did not means her words, and she was dealing

778
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 1: with someone who's I'm fifty one.

779
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 2: But if she was dealing with someone who is maybe

780
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 2: my age.

781
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:57,879
Speaker 1: Who perhaps didn't look after themselves very well, they even

782
00:38:57,920 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 1: really need to get more exercise to that said, I

783
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 1: don't have time for that. She goes just twenty minutes

784
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 1: a day. I don't have time for that, My mum,

785
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 1: No shit, would say something like that. So if you

786
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,279
Speaker 1: don't have time to exercise to twenty minutes a day,

787
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:08,839
Speaker 1: do you have time to be dead twenty four hours

788
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 1: a day? What would you want to tell people about,

789
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 1: you know, not taking a step towards this.

790
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 3: What are they you know, you're losing life like this precious,

791
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 3: this precious life. I mean, like again, like I've got

792
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 3: to just be so normal about this. We can't be

793
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 3: turning towards it all the time. It's just not practical.

794
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 3: But if there's it's almost like something's calling to you

795
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,919
Speaker 3: and you're not paying attention. It's like you're not showing

796
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 3: up to this life. Yeah, it makes me emotional. I

797
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 3: think we get this, We get one life, and this

798
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 3: question is like, how am I going to show up

799
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 3: to it? How am I going to show up to it?

800
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:48,359
Speaker 3: And if we can't make like, if we can't turn

801
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,359
Speaker 3: towards it for even one minute a day, what kind

802
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 3: of life is this that we're living like it's it's

803
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 3: in the long run, and it's not going to be

804
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 3: one that's full of vitality and meaning and richness. It

805
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,800
Speaker 3: might be maybe free from small moments of pain and discomfort,

806
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:06,919
Speaker 3: so you know, really have to kind of it takes

807
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 3: a lot of courage and bravery thing to turn towards

808
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 3: this fact that like I am not where I want

809
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 3: to be.

810
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,720
Speaker 1: Okay, let's say I'm having a degree of discomfort because

811
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 1: of something that is very clearly external to me.

812
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:20,799
Speaker 2: I would want a degree.

813
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:23,799
Speaker 1: Of resilience, and I'd want to cultivate a degree of

814
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 1: resilience so I could handle that. Yeah, Okay, where's a

815
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:32,439
Speaker 1: line between a degree of resilience and willfully ignoring something terrible. Yes,

816
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 1: and I'm just a passenger here now this terrible thing

817
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 1: is happening, but I'm not going to do anything about it.

818
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, So the line between willful avoidance and resilience. So again,

819
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 3: like it not sound like a Breaken record, So yeah,

820
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 3: noticing and then also saying, okay, so what am I

821
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:54,839
Speaker 3: going to do now? Checking in with my values? So

822
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 3: what I want to stand for in the face of this,

823
00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 3: like what I want to stand for in the face

824
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 3: of someone's really shit behavior. It's kind of this call

825
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 3: to connect with what I value and how I want

826
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 3: to be. But it might also be like setting a boundary,

827
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 3: like actually it is not helpful for me to be

828
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 3: around this person, and that may not be avoidance. That

829
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:16,800
Speaker 3: actually may be a really skillful choice or a wise choice.

830
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 3: But again, like you have to tune in, like what's

831
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 3: happening for me when I'm around this person? Is this

832
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 3: a relationship that I want to put more energy into?

833
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 3: Is it one that I actually want to put back from?

834
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 3: And that that's not avoidance, that's actually really intentional. There's

835
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 3: there's kind of interesting questions in there around like the

836
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 3: notion of stoicism in resilience and how that's actually again

837
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 3: like different from avoidance. So stoicism isn't like not being affected,

838
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 3: and stoicism isn't having isn't about not having emotions, but

839
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 3: about being able to have them and still stand here.

840
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 3: Does that kind of make sense?

841
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yes, yeah, there's many an hour sitting in

842
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 1: most one or listening to exactly lectures about it exactly

843
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:03,279
Speaker 1: or but yes, I have sto to say. Someone who

844
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 1: is stoic has been kind of misconstrued in our lexicon,

845
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 1: and that either they're a statue. No no, no, no, no,

846
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 1: you know they are willing to be with something that

847
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 1: is not great because they have a value that serves

848
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 1: the purpose of No. No, no, I'm going to stand and

849
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 1: keep here because it's important for me and all of

850
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 1: us that I keep going in this direction, whether that

851
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:28,720
Speaker 1: be in a leadership position or in your family or whatever.

852
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 2: You spoke about values. It can be very confusing if.

853
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 1: You've ever thought about this, how do you even could

854
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 1: you offer an example?

855
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 2: Perhaps you know, anonymize it as much as you like it.

856
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 1: Can you combine humans if you're like, can you offer

857
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 1: an example of how someone that through working with them,

858
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 1: found a way to identify the values that they hold themselves.

859
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 3: There are so many ways in which we can do it,

860
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 3: and some of them are actually very very simple, Like

861
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 3: there's some great online questionnaires that you can do that

862
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 3: are really identifying what a value like, what your values are.

863
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 3: I guess it's important to understand what the definition is

864
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:06,280
Speaker 3: to be honest, because they're confused very much with goals.

865
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:10,280
Speaker 3: So a value is like heading west. We never reach west,

866
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 3: but it is an ongoing direction. So our values are

867
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 3: like our compass, and we get a choice to whether

868
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:19,319
Speaker 3: we turn towards them or whether we don't. But a

869
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 3: goal is like something that you can tick off. I

870
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 3: can definitively say yes, I've done that, and now I'm

871
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 3: going to make a new goal. But a value we

872
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:30,439
Speaker 3: never tick off, So like being kind, for example, would

873
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 3: be value being kind. I never ever tick off being kind.

874
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,799
Speaker 3: I might have actions that I can say, yes, that

875
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,399
Speaker 3: was a kind act, but it is basically like an

876
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 3: ongoing quality of behavior. So that's kind of how we

877
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 3: understand the difference between like a value and a goal.

878
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,240
Speaker 3: So yes, you could go online and do like a questionnaire.

879
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:51,879
Speaker 3: I've got a questionnaire in my book as well, where

880
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 3: you can kind of identify what your maybe top five

881
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:57,439
Speaker 3: values might be. Another, like, there are so many ways

882
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 3: in which we could do this. But another, maybe a

883
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 3: kind of heartfelt way of thinking about a values is

884
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 3: also thinking about you know, if you're getting to like

885
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 3: a milestone event. Maybe I use the example of the

886
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 3: eightieth birthday. It's a very common practice that we would

887
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 3: use in acceptance and commitment therapy, and that is to

888
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:20,320
Speaker 3: imagine you're at your eightieth birthday and you basically invite

889
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 3: people to talk about you, and what is it that

890
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 3: they say? What is it that you would like them

891
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 3: to say about how you've lived your life? And so

892
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:30,879
Speaker 3: we're really getting at like the qualities with which you've

893
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 3: lived your life, not what you've achieved, not like how

894
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 3: much money you've made, how many degrees you had, that stuff.

895
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 3: What we're looking is like how you lived, and I

896
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:45,760
Speaker 3: think that will highlight though that tends to highlight what's

897
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:48,280
Speaker 3: deeply like what sits in your heart is most important.

898
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:50,919
Speaker 2: I think I went to a funeral of someone who

899
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 2: not much older than me.

900
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,880
Speaker 1: Cancer is a heck of a thing, and what was

901
00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 1: said at their funeral chanting my friend who is next

902
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 1: to me, going, I think the goal here is that

903
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 1: live a life that means at your funeral, people say that,

904
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 1: every single one of them. We just said they were

905
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 1: like the sun and they were just champions for everyone

906
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 1: and there was never and they knew this was coming

907
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:21,400
Speaker 1: and they discovered it way too late and they couldn't

908
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 1: do anything about it. And the way they spoke to

909
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 1: their kids about it and the way they faced it.

910
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 1: I don't mean to sound grim, but none of us

911
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:29,360
Speaker 1: are going to get out of this alive.

912
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 2: You got to start making serfs.

913
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, And this is like this idea here of

914
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:41,840
Speaker 3: like what makes life worth living? You know, and you

915
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:45,319
Speaker 3: know you ask people who are given a terminal diagnosis,

916
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 3: and I mean this is anecdotal, and I hope it's

917
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 3: backed up by the research. But I have not met

918
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:55,360
Speaker 3: anybody that is sorrowful about not having made this much money.

919
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,319
Speaker 3: The yearning that they have usually is around connection. It's

920
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 3: usually around connection, and that then like from there we

921
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:05,840
Speaker 3: can unpack what our values are to So it's like,

922
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 3: how do I want to connect with people? Like in

923
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 3: what way? And that's like our internal like our internal

924
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 3: guiding force.

925
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,319
Speaker 1: We don't want to be lying there using the words

926
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 1: should in every sentence. All right, but should can be

927
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 1: such a trap. Yes, we can get so stuck in

928
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 1: the trap of should if you're finding yourself saying the

929
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 1: words should a lot. What are some ways that we

930
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 1: can start to navigate out of that?

931
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, not surprisingly noticing at first, obviously, But then

932
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 3: I think we can really bring to a question like, okay,

933
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 3: so what is this telling me? So here's regret to me,

934
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:44,319
Speaker 3: Like that's what it sounds like, I should have done

935
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 3: this or I should be doing that. Okay, so we'll.

936
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 1: Get spike here, you should you should have done this,

937
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 1: you should have done that, certainly if we're in that

938
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 1: sort of situation, yeah, like that work situation or a

939
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:57,800
Speaker 1: personal situation, yeah, with your kids.

940
00:46:57,920 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 3: Yeah. And so then the question is like, well, what's

941
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 3: what's the emotion that's here, particularly if it's like you

942
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:05,280
Speaker 3: should have done that? Like okay, so pausing here, Okay,

943
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 3: so because they haven't done that, what's happening for you?

944
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 3: What's the emotion this is? Maybe it's anger, So let's

945
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 3: come to the feeling rather than moving into the thoughts.

946
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 3: So like stepping down from this internal tape that's like

947
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:19,279
Speaker 3: replying over and over again. Okay, so here's anger. How

948
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 3: do I deal with his anger? How do I, like,

949
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:25,359
Speaker 3: what's the wisdom from this feeling here? And how can

950
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 3: I actually unpack what this should is meaning? So it

951
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 3: requires this discernment, yes, and that is kind of quite complex,

952
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 3: but you know, being able to step down from that,

953
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:39,080
Speaker 3: like that inner dialogue and like what's the information here?

954
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 3: Regret is also a really tricky thing to see it with.

955
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 1: A Yeah, that is it's I mean, I'm fifteen of

956
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:53,360
Speaker 1: the bit years sober, so I've had to like regret

957
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 1: for me, It's it's not a very useful thing at all.

958
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 1: I like to think think of all those things that

959
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 1: would otherwise show up as regret as really good information, Yeah,

960
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 1: really really really good warning labels. Yes, yeah, that will

961
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:13,440
Speaker 1: help me make choices from this moment.

962
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, because because if you get really fused

963
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 3: with and when I say fuse, like really caught up

964
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:23,760
Speaker 3: and stuck in that regretful or that kind of internal

965
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 3: rumination for example, is that like that also pulls you

966
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:31,359
Speaker 3: out of this present moment and it stops you from

967
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 3: actually being the person that you want to be. We

968
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 3: don't want to disregard the information we don't want to disregard.

969
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:39,760
Speaker 3: That should kind of really bring into questions You're okay,

970
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:42,719
Speaker 3: so all right, so I really acted out of line

971
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:45,400
Speaker 3: of my values there. I'm like, there's a deep grief

972
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 3: for that, Like how do I really acknowledge that? And

973
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,319
Speaker 3: then ask, okay, so, for example, action steps, do I

974
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:54,719
Speaker 3: need to make amends? Like is there an action here

975
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:58,480
Speaker 3: that I have to turn towards someone and make amends

976
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 3: for this thing that I that I regret? Or is

977
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 3: there another way in which I can take an action

978
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 3: that would mean that I'm going to act differently in

979
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 3: the future. So again, like this information here gives us

980
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 3: the choice about how I'm going to show up now.

981
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 3: I may not be able to control what happened in

982
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 3: the past. What I do have control over is what

983
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 3: I do next.

984
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:20,840
Speaker 1: And for anyone who's curious about any kind of super

985
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:24,319
Speaker 1: secret sober clubs that I may or may not be

986
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:24,799
Speaker 1: a part of.

987
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 2: You mentioned, you know, action steps.

988
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:33,759
Speaker 1: You basically just described everything from four to eleven, and

989
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 1: it's just the loop.

990
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 2: Yeah you do, you just keep going around loop. I

991
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 2: wish more people had access to that.

992
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:42,919
Speaker 1: When people are listening to something like this, they might,

993
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 1: you know, they might be pretty resistant.

994
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:47,400
Speaker 2: What would you say to that person?

995
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:49,799
Speaker 3: There are many things, and I guess I would at

996
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 3: first ask how is this working for you now?

997
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:52,759
Speaker 2: Right Like?

998
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,879
Speaker 3: How is this working for you right now? Is this

999
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 3: how you want to be living? And if we're like,

1000
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:01,800
Speaker 3: are you This metaphor in the book actually like waiting

1001
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:04,279
Speaker 3: for the wrong train, and that is like you're sitting

1002
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:06,480
Speaker 3: at the station and you've got these two options, of

1003
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:09,320
Speaker 3: these two trains, right, so they're both going in your direction.

1004
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:12,479
Speaker 3: One is like a luxury train, got everything you'd ever want,

1005
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 3: all the stuff, and the other one is like pretty

1006
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 3: like run down looking train. And you're like, well, no,

1007
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:20,760
Speaker 3: I'm going to wait for the luxury train. And whilst

1008
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 3: you're waiting for the luxury train to arrive, numerous like

1009
00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 3: shabby old trains keep passing through. They're off in the

1010
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:30,720
Speaker 3: direction that you want to go. But you're still waiting

1011
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 3: for the train. You're waiting for the right conditions. You're

1012
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 3: waiting for someone else to do something for you, You're

1013
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 3: waiting for someone else to make the changes. But the

1014
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:40,960
Speaker 3: reality is in the waiting, you've lost all this time,

1015
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:44,879
Speaker 3: You've lost all these opportunities it's not the ideal train

1016
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,360
Speaker 3: that you want to get on. It doesn't look like

1017
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:49,239
Speaker 3: it's the right time, it doesn't look like it's the

1018
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:52,800
Speaker 3: right space, but yet it's still going in the direction

1019
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:54,359
Speaker 3: that you would really ideally like to go.

1020
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,319
Speaker 1: There's carriages, people watching TikTok with a speaker on the

1021
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:01,319
Speaker 1: whole time. Exactly at least I'm moving.

1022
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, exactly. And so here's this question like how

1023
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 3: is it that I'm living now? How is this serving me?

1024
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 3: And is this pain that's here is this in service

1025
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:12,880
Speaker 3: of my value direction? Or is it in the opposite direction?

1026
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 3: So it's almost like, you know, for me, there's this

1027
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:19,840
Speaker 3: question that inevitably sits with all of us, and that

1028
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 3: is that what kind of pain do you want to have?

1029
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:26,240
Speaker 3: Do you want to have the pain that comes with turning,

1030
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:29,040
Speaker 3: like turning towards the direction you want to go? Because

1031
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:31,239
Speaker 3: that is painful, Right, You're going to have to sit

1032
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:32,840
Speaker 3: through a lot of shit, You're going to have to

1033
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 3: encund a lot of difficulty to head in the direction

1034
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 3: that you want to go, or you can choose the

1035
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:39,600
Speaker 3: pain of staying the same, because there will be a

1036
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:42,480
Speaker 3: pain of staying the same. So this is like this

1037
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:43,319
Speaker 3: choice that we can.

1038
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:52,799
Speaker 1: And that was doctor Emily Musgrove. Her book is called Unstuck,

1039
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:55,479
Speaker 1: A Guide to finding your way forward to the life

1040
00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:57,240
Speaker 1: you want to live. I do love a good prime.

1041
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 1: The promise after the colon of a book title is

1042
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 1: always I'm here for it, the bold bold visions.

1043
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 2: I like it.

1044
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:07,760
Speaker 1: Thanks for being a part of it, Thanks for listening.

1045
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:10,800
Speaker 1: Once again. If you want to look for something interesting

1046
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 1: and enjoy a story that might make you snort, laugh,

1047
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:16,160
Speaker 1: you'll find heaps on the story.

1048
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:16,840
Speaker 2: Club YouTube page.

1049
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:19,759
Speaker 1: The linkers in the show notes as well as that

1050
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:21,799
Speaker 1: is where you can get copies of both So What

1051
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 1: Now What my brand new book, and Back After the Break,

1052
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:26,480
Speaker 1: my first book. They're both on sale right now, and

1053
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:28,200
Speaker 1: you can grab one for you and your friend and

1054
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 1: your milkman, and if you still have a milkman? And

1055
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:32,240
Speaker 1: how are you listening to this? From nineteen eighty three?

1056
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:34,759
Speaker 1: If you liked this episode and it was valuable to you,

1057
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:36,759
Speaker 1: please share it with someone and like and follow and

1058
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:40,440
Speaker 1: subscribe and comment and rate and all that stuff. And

1059
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:42,239
Speaker 1: take a photo of what you're looking at right now.

1060
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 1: I'm always fascinated with how people What are you doing

1061
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:44,759
Speaker 1: when you're listening?

1062
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 2: To this show.

1063
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 1: Where are you walking? What hotel room window were.

1064
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 2: Looking out of? Fascinated what's going on?

1065
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:52,480
Speaker 1: Sand Or her email at gmail dot com.

1066
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 2: That's my email address.

1067
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 1: Thanks being a part of it.

1068
00:52:55,200 --> 00:53:01,840
Speaker 2: We're back here on Monday.