1 00:00:05,881 --> 00:00:07,321 Speaker 1: Apote production. 2 00:00:10,361 --> 00:00:15,281 Speaker 2: This podcast contains descriptions of sexual assault and psychological trauma. 3 00:00:15,921 --> 00:00:20,001 Speaker 2: It's not recommended for younger listeners, and discretion is advised. 4 00:00:24,641 --> 00:00:26,601 Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam shann I'm your host, 5 00:00:26,601 --> 00:00:28,521 Speaker 2: Adam Shanner. This is the second part of. 6 00:00:28,441 --> 00:00:31,001 Speaker 3: My look at the life and legacy of Vicky Cleary, 7 00:00:31,481 --> 00:00:35,001 Speaker 3: murdered by her ex partner Peter Keo in nineteen eighty seven. 8 00:00:35,801 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 4: Vicky Cleary was only twenty five when she was repeatedly 9 00:00:39,521 --> 00:00:43,160 Speaker 4: stabbed at a kindergarten by her abusive ex partner. 10 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:47,481 Speaker 3: In the first part, with her brother, Phil, we examined 11 00:00:47,480 --> 00:00:50,840 Speaker 3: what Vicky's death and the lack of justice symbolized in 12 00:00:50,921 --> 00:00:53,681 Speaker 3: terms of the struggle for women to be treated equally 13 00:00:53,761 --> 00:00:54,561 Speaker 3: before the law. 14 00:00:55,241 --> 00:00:58,801 Speaker 4: Phil Cleary, Vicky's brother, described the sentence of less than 15 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:02,761 Speaker 4: four years as a miscarriage of justice, saying the law 16 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,681 Speaker 4: reduced her killing to manslaughter on grounds of provocation. 17 00:01:08,081 --> 00:01:10,681 Speaker 3: But let's not forget that Vicky was first and foremost 18 00:01:10,761 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 3: a person, a sister, a daughter, a friend, and a 19 00:01:14,881 --> 00:01:15,761 Speaker 3: community member. 20 00:01:16,601 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 4: Each year, supporters gathering Coburg to honor the life of 21 00:01:19,801 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 4: Vicky Cleary and remember victims of family violence. 22 00:01:24,681 --> 00:01:27,521 Speaker 3: And I wanted to explore who she was and the 23 00:01:27,601 --> 00:01:30,281 Speaker 3: lasting impact of her passing. So I'm here with her 24 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:34,761 Speaker 3: younger sister Lizzie to understand who Vicky was and still 25 00:01:34,801 --> 00:01:36,081 Speaker 3: represents to her family. 26 00:01:36,601 --> 00:01:39,761 Speaker 1: Welcome, Hi, Thank you for speaking to me. 27 00:01:40,081 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 3: My absolute pleasure. Thanks for making yourself available. And it 28 00:01:42,681 --> 00:01:44,561 Speaker 3: was great to talk to Phil and to get a 29 00:01:44,601 --> 00:01:47,201 Speaker 3: sense of the campaign that he waghs. Obviously it's had 30 00:01:47,241 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 3: a personal impact on him, but I wanted to spend 31 00:01:49,641 --> 00:01:55,121 Speaker 3: a bit more time just talking about what her legacy 32 00:01:55,201 --> 00:01:57,041 Speaker 3: meant to you as a person. 33 00:01:58,081 --> 00:02:00,961 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, So her legacy, she was everything to me. 34 00:02:01,241 --> 00:02:04,921 Speaker 5: So I was fourteen when she passed away, well, when 35 00:02:05,081 --> 00:02:05,681 Speaker 5: she was murdered. 36 00:02:06,041 --> 00:02:07,401 Speaker 1: So I was fourteen. 37 00:02:07,081 --> 00:02:10,321 Speaker 3: Nothing, So I passed away. You emphasized, you've done it 38 00:02:10,361 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 3: twice since I've been here. Murder puts it in a 39 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:15,761 Speaker 3: proper perspective. 40 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 5: Absolutely, So passed away is in the nice terms, murder is, well, 41 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 5: she was murdered. So that's how now I'm trying to 42 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 5: change my way and now I'm coming out and I'm 43 00:02:26,561 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 5: speaking about my experiences about her murder. She just didn't 44 00:02:31,041 --> 00:02:34,561 Speaker 5: she just didn't pass away. It was horrific. It was 45 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 5: absolutely horrific. So, as I mentioned, I was fourteen years 46 00:02:37,561 --> 00:02:41,401 Speaker 5: of age. Vicki and I were we were very close. 47 00:02:41,721 --> 00:02:45,081 Speaker 5: So I was with her every single weekend for as 48 00:02:45,081 --> 00:02:47,121 Speaker 5: long as I can remember, and she was in my 49 00:02:47,161 --> 00:02:50,721 Speaker 5: memory at that stage. So every weekend, like I said, 50 00:02:50,841 --> 00:02:53,721 Speaker 5: I would be at her place, I'd be we would be. 51 00:02:53,601 --> 00:02:54,601 Speaker 1: Doing all sorts of things. 52 00:02:55,401 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 5: Also, she was my same height, so she's my big sister, 53 00:02:58,721 --> 00:03:01,201 Speaker 5: but she was my big little sister as well. 54 00:03:01,561 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 1: And she was just beautiful. 55 00:03:02,881 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 5: She would light up a room, she loved children, She'd 56 00:03:07,441 --> 00:03:10,641 Speaker 5: lit up everyone, and everybody was just attracted to her. 57 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: She was just magnetic. 58 00:03:13,841 --> 00:03:15,601 Speaker 3: What were you doing at the time? What was fourteen 59 00:03:15,721 --> 00:03:16,081 Speaker 3: year old? 60 00:03:16,041 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 1: Was fourteen year old Lizzie? 61 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 5: I was very quiet back in the day, and I 62 00:03:20,321 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 5: was at school, So. 63 00:03:21,721 --> 00:03:23,041 Speaker 1: I was a child that was. 64 00:03:23,481 --> 00:03:27,161 Speaker 5: I grew up around adults, so when I was younger, 65 00:03:27,281 --> 00:03:30,441 Speaker 5: I found it very difficult to hang around other children actually, 66 00:03:30,481 --> 00:03:33,241 Speaker 5: but coming from a family of adults, I found it 67 00:03:33,401 --> 00:03:34,961 Speaker 5: I communicated better with adults. 68 00:03:35,001 --> 00:03:36,961 Speaker 1: So she was like my best friend as well as 69 00:03:37,001 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: well as my mum. 70 00:03:37,921 --> 00:03:39,121 Speaker 3: And she was eleven years older. 71 00:03:39,361 --> 00:03:42,761 Speaker 1: She was, yes, eleven years older. She was eleven years 72 00:03:42,761 --> 00:03:43,521 Speaker 1: when I was born. 73 00:03:43,801 --> 00:03:46,801 Speaker 5: There was a big age difference between myself and so 74 00:03:46,921 --> 00:03:50,641 Speaker 5: even Phil and even my next sibling up. So I 75 00:03:50,801 --> 00:03:54,321 Speaker 5: was the baby of the family. And even when I 76 00:03:54,441 --> 00:03:57,321 Speaker 5: was a baby, I was like her baby too, and 77 00:03:57,361 --> 00:03:58,601 Speaker 5: I was like the baby to everyone. 78 00:03:58,721 --> 00:04:00,001 Speaker 1: So she used to. 79 00:03:59,921 --> 00:04:02,601 Speaker 5: Carry me around in prams and her and her friends 80 00:04:02,601 --> 00:04:05,281 Speaker 5: would be wandering around with me in the streets and 81 00:04:05,321 --> 00:04:05,641 Speaker 5: so on. 82 00:04:05,721 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: But yeah, she was my idol. She was everything. 83 00:04:08,801 --> 00:04:11,801 Speaker 5: She even taught me about mother nature and the birds 84 00:04:11,801 --> 00:04:14,081 Speaker 5: and the bees and everything. 85 00:04:14,161 --> 00:04:16,721 Speaker 3: So she was my She was my second mom, I 86 00:04:16,761 --> 00:04:19,041 Speaker 3: was going to say, more like a mother Figurestely. 87 00:04:19,761 --> 00:04:20,401 Speaker 1: Absolutely. 88 00:04:21,161 --> 00:04:24,481 Speaker 3: And she was working in the kindergarten. Yes, she had 89 00:04:24,921 --> 00:04:27,201 Speaker 3: this partner, Peter Keo. Were you aware of. 90 00:04:27,201 --> 00:04:30,281 Speaker 5: Him, Yes, I was aware of him. To me, he 91 00:04:30,361 --> 00:04:32,121 Speaker 5: was just a man that was there. He was a 92 00:04:32,121 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 5: bit older, but I was, you know, only fourteen. I 93 00:04:34,201 --> 00:04:37,121 Speaker 5: didn't really think anything of him. To me, he was 94 00:04:37,161 --> 00:04:40,001 Speaker 5: just like any other man that was there. Yes, he 95 00:04:40,121 --> 00:04:43,801 Speaker 5: had a lot of tattoos and so on, but I didn't. 96 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:46,761 Speaker 5: I didn't see anything that was going on, and I 97 00:04:46,801 --> 00:04:47,961 Speaker 5: didn't really think much of him. 98 00:04:48,001 --> 00:04:49,961 Speaker 1: I didn't think, you know, he was just there. 99 00:04:51,041 --> 00:04:53,001 Speaker 3: And later on you discovered that he had a history 100 00:04:53,041 --> 00:04:55,481 Speaker 3: of violence. Yes, I guess you look back and you 101 00:04:55,521 --> 00:05:00,121 Speaker 3: can see the potential for danger that your sister was in, Yes. 102 00:05:00,201 --> 00:05:03,241 Speaker 5: And potential danger that possibly I was in as well. 103 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:07,241 Speaker 5: So afterwards where and so my mum and dad did 104 00:05:07,281 --> 00:05:10,601 Speaker 5: not hide anything from me as a child. So after 105 00:05:10,681 --> 00:05:14,201 Speaker 5: Vicky was murdered, after all the court cases and so on, 106 00:05:15,001 --> 00:05:16,041 Speaker 5: nothing was hidden from me. 107 00:05:16,121 --> 00:05:17,041 Speaker 1: Everything came out. 108 00:05:17,081 --> 00:05:21,961 Speaker 5: I knew everything that I knew his past history and 109 00:05:22,481 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 5: some of the stuff that he was accused of. I 110 00:05:26,161 --> 00:05:30,841 Speaker 5: could have been affected too. Yeah, that's a that's not 111 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:31,441 Speaker 5: a good thought. 112 00:05:31,721 --> 00:05:33,921 Speaker 3: No, it's not, it's not. And this is part of 113 00:05:33,961 --> 00:05:36,841 Speaker 3: the I mean, people could talk about the shock of 114 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:40,281 Speaker 3: something happening, and I think shock passes away. But I 115 00:05:40,281 --> 00:05:41,841 Speaker 3: think I'm trying to find the right words for this, 116 00:05:41,921 --> 00:05:46,601 Speaker 3: but I think that shock settles and sets into trauma 117 00:05:47,201 --> 00:05:51,201 Speaker 3: very much, which becomes part of your psychological makeup as 118 00:05:51,241 --> 00:05:51,761 Speaker 3: you go through. 119 00:05:52,481 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 5: Yes, I think of her every day, But when I 120 00:05:56,241 --> 00:05:58,881 Speaker 5: think of her, or I think of how she died, 121 00:05:59,521 --> 00:06:02,681 Speaker 5: I think of him, And it just happens every single day, 122 00:06:02,721 --> 00:06:05,681 Speaker 5: And in fact, I can actually remember how how he speaks, 123 00:06:05,721 --> 00:06:11,681 Speaker 5: how he sounds, how we looked at that stage and minimal. 124 00:06:12,161 --> 00:06:14,961 Speaker 5: I don't really recall how she spoke, but he's prominent 125 00:06:15,521 --> 00:06:17,401 Speaker 5: in my thoughts every single day. 126 00:06:17,521 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 3: That must be frustrating and saddening that this perpetrator, who 127 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 3: really never faced justice as such, is overtaking the memory 128 00:06:29,241 --> 00:06:29,841 Speaker 3: of your sister. 129 00:06:30,401 --> 00:06:31,961 Speaker 1: Yes, very much. 130 00:06:32,081 --> 00:06:35,321 Speaker 3: What did those thoughts about him take? 131 00:06:36,521 --> 00:06:37,161 Speaker 1: A negative? 132 00:06:38,001 --> 00:06:41,601 Speaker 5: It's very negative because I think about then. It's always 133 00:06:41,721 --> 00:06:45,001 Speaker 5: how she died. I think about what she must have 134 00:06:45,081 --> 00:06:49,601 Speaker 5: gone through that we didn't know about, how horrific things 135 00:06:49,721 --> 00:06:52,561 Speaker 5: must have been for her, and she managed to make 136 00:06:52,601 --> 00:06:56,001 Speaker 5: a break, She tried to get out, did succeed for 137 00:06:56,201 --> 00:06:58,881 Speaker 5: about four months I think it was, and was trying 138 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:02,161 Speaker 5: to get her life back on track, and how happy 139 00:07:02,201 --> 00:07:05,241 Speaker 5: she was at that stage, but then there was still 140 00:07:05,601 --> 00:07:09,481 Speaker 5: stuff going on. That's all in my thoughts the day 141 00:07:09,521 --> 00:07:12,681 Speaker 5: that she died, continuously how she died, But he is 142 00:07:12,721 --> 00:07:15,561 Speaker 5: always there. It's something that I can't get out of 143 00:07:15,601 --> 00:07:15,921 Speaker 5: my head. 144 00:07:17,081 --> 00:07:17,761 Speaker 3: Do you think you'll ever? 145 00:07:18,721 --> 00:07:20,321 Speaker 1: I don't think so. No. 146 00:07:20,481 --> 00:07:23,481 Speaker 3: Have you had any therapy at all or chats to people? 147 00:07:23,801 --> 00:07:24,201 Speaker 3: I do. 148 00:07:24,321 --> 00:07:27,081 Speaker 5: Yeah, I've seen a number of counselors, and I've actually 149 00:07:27,081 --> 00:07:31,201 Speaker 5: found a lovely lady that I see now psychoanalyst. 150 00:07:30,801 --> 00:07:33,041 Speaker 1: And we work through other stuff as well. 151 00:07:33,081 --> 00:07:37,641 Speaker 5: I've suffered anxiety, I've suffered health issues, But this is 152 00:07:38,081 --> 00:07:40,641 Speaker 5: the majority I think is the reason behind all of this. 153 00:07:41,521 --> 00:07:44,721 Speaker 5: But yeah, I think it's just because the situation how 154 00:07:44,801 --> 00:07:47,001 Speaker 5: young I was. He was in my life from the 155 00:07:47,041 --> 00:07:49,601 Speaker 5: time probably about ten to fourteen as well. They were 156 00:07:49,601 --> 00:07:53,441 Speaker 5: together for about four years. And yeah, yeah, I just 157 00:07:53,601 --> 00:07:54,761 Speaker 5: can't get it out of my head. 158 00:07:56,001 --> 00:07:57,921 Speaker 3: I'm going to ask you to talk about it once more, 159 00:07:58,281 --> 00:08:03,321 Speaker 3: and I just apologize for that. But that day, what 160 00:08:03,361 --> 00:08:04,521 Speaker 3: are your memories of that day? 161 00:08:05,201 --> 00:08:08,361 Speaker 5: So that day, I woke up and I was feeling 162 00:08:08,361 --> 00:08:11,361 Speaker 5: a bit odd. I nearly said to Mum, said I 163 00:08:11,401 --> 00:08:12,961 Speaker 5: was never going to say can I have the day off? 164 00:08:12,961 --> 00:08:14,241 Speaker 1: But I didn't. 165 00:08:14,281 --> 00:08:16,721 Speaker 5: So I went into school and it was a beautiful 166 00:08:16,721 --> 00:08:20,081 Speaker 5: August day. The sun was out, and you know, it 167 00:08:20,161 --> 00:08:23,001 Speaker 5: was at school. It got to about lunchtime. I remembered 168 00:08:23,121 --> 00:08:25,241 Speaker 5: my friend and I were sitting on the school oval 169 00:08:25,761 --> 00:08:27,841 Speaker 5: and another friend came out to me and said, Lizia, 170 00:08:27,841 --> 00:08:31,401 Speaker 5: you wanted at the principal's office. And I've never been 171 00:08:31,441 --> 00:08:33,801 Speaker 5: into trouble at school or anything like that. 172 00:08:33,881 --> 00:08:35,281 Speaker 1: So I'm like that was the nerd. 173 00:08:36,161 --> 00:08:39,001 Speaker 5: So anyway, off, we went off to the principal's office 174 00:08:39,081 --> 00:08:42,601 Speaker 5: and I see my brother Perry in the corridor with 175 00:08:42,681 --> 00:08:45,081 Speaker 5: the teachers, and I can see them there. They've all 176 00:08:45,081 --> 00:08:47,401 Speaker 5: got their heads in their hands and they're looking down. 177 00:08:47,961 --> 00:08:50,441 Speaker 5: And one of the teachers said to me, Lizzy, you've 178 00:08:50,441 --> 00:08:51,961 Speaker 5: got to go and get your stuff out of your locker. 179 00:08:52,001 --> 00:08:54,201 Speaker 5: And I'm thinking, okay, it must be just something. I'm 180 00:08:54,681 --> 00:08:58,681 Speaker 5: going home. And then my brother Perry walked me out 181 00:08:58,721 --> 00:09:02,121 Speaker 5: the school gates and he said to me, Lizzie got 182 00:09:02,121 --> 00:09:08,401 Speaker 5: some bad news. Vicki's dead. And I automatically said to him, 183 00:09:09,161 --> 00:09:12,161 Speaker 5: what did he do to her? He didn't need to 184 00:09:12,601 --> 00:09:16,121 Speaker 5: tell me first. I automatically knew that that's the reason 185 00:09:16,201 --> 00:09:21,841 Speaker 5: how he'd been behind, how she'd died. So I get 186 00:09:21,881 --> 00:09:25,041 Speaker 5: in the car, and my dad was in the car 187 00:09:25,161 --> 00:09:28,601 Speaker 5: as well, and my dad couldn't drive, so and I 188 00:09:28,681 --> 00:09:31,481 Speaker 5: remember we had a big, big, old yellow Valiant, so 189 00:09:31,881 --> 00:09:35,481 Speaker 5: I just laid down in the backseat and I was hysterical. 190 00:09:36,161 --> 00:09:39,361 Speaker 5: And we went to get petrol, and I remember, because 191 00:09:39,361 --> 00:09:41,321 Speaker 5: we were in the broad Feed, like a little country town, 192 00:09:41,641 --> 00:09:43,761 Speaker 5: we went to get petrol and we pull up at 193 00:09:43,801 --> 00:09:46,001 Speaker 5: the service station and back in the day, when they 194 00:09:46,001 --> 00:09:47,881 Speaker 5: had people actually come and put petrol in for you, 195 00:09:48,841 --> 00:09:52,001 Speaker 5: and we knew this man and my dad said he's 196 00:09:52,081 --> 00:09:55,361 Speaker 5: murdered my daughter. It was just the scene, the look 197 00:09:55,401 --> 00:09:58,721 Speaker 5: on this, It was just disbelief. So I don't remember 198 00:09:58,961 --> 00:10:02,441 Speaker 5: driving down to Melbourne because it was all blur. I 199 00:10:02,441 --> 00:10:04,921 Speaker 5: think I was crying all the way down. Everyone was 200 00:10:05,081 --> 00:10:08,081 Speaker 5: eating up at Phil's house in Brunswick. I remember just 201 00:10:08,241 --> 00:10:13,641 Speaker 5: picking up my bag and running through Phil's house and saying, 202 00:10:13,681 --> 00:10:16,801 Speaker 5: where's my mum, where's my mum, and ran all the 203 00:10:16,801 --> 00:10:19,321 Speaker 5: way back and my mum had managed to get out 204 00:10:19,321 --> 00:10:21,561 Speaker 5: to the backyard and she was just in the backyard 205 00:10:21,641 --> 00:10:26,881 Speaker 5: just I can remember screaming uncontrollably and I just ran 206 00:10:26,961 --> 00:10:30,241 Speaker 5: up when we embraced and she just held my face 207 00:10:30,921 --> 00:10:33,521 Speaker 5: and I can't remember exactly what she said to me, 208 00:10:33,601 --> 00:10:35,481 Speaker 5: but it was must have been something along the lines 209 00:10:35,521 --> 00:10:39,001 Speaker 5: of you know, our girls gone or something like that. 210 00:10:39,041 --> 00:10:43,241 Speaker 5: And I just remember there was numerous people around everywhere 211 00:10:43,401 --> 00:10:47,161 Speaker 5: and everyone was in shock. So and that just led 212 00:10:47,201 --> 00:10:50,561 Speaker 5: the day into the night and people coming and going 213 00:10:50,681 --> 00:10:54,041 Speaker 5: and thinking how are we going to get through this, 214 00:10:54,161 --> 00:10:56,801 Speaker 5: what are we going to do, how do we survive? 215 00:10:57,361 --> 00:10:57,961 Speaker 1: And so on. 216 00:10:58,841 --> 00:11:01,721 Speaker 5: I remember or so we stayed at Phil's for a 217 00:11:01,761 --> 00:11:04,521 Speaker 5: couple of nights and I was sharing the big bed 218 00:11:04,761 --> 00:11:08,001 Speaker 5: with Mom, and I'd just wake up and my Mom 219 00:11:08,041 --> 00:11:11,321 Speaker 5: would not be there, but she'd be down out the back, 220 00:11:12,161 --> 00:11:15,681 Speaker 5: just crying uncontrollably. And we couldn't We didn't know how 221 00:11:15,681 --> 00:11:18,961 Speaker 5: to stop that. We couldn't stop it. But my mum's 222 00:11:18,961 --> 00:11:23,281 Speaker 5: trauma was something beyond and my dad. My dad was quiet, 223 00:11:23,681 --> 00:11:26,801 Speaker 5: but my just seeing my mom like that, and my 224 00:11:27,121 --> 00:11:31,001 Speaker 5: Mum lived like that for the rest of her life. 225 00:11:31,001 --> 00:11:34,121 Speaker 5: But she was strong and she lived on for us. 226 00:11:34,121 --> 00:11:37,881 Speaker 5: And she wrote diaries as well, which I found when 227 00:11:37,921 --> 00:11:42,081 Speaker 5: Mum passed away, and it was just heartbreaking to read 228 00:11:42,161 --> 00:11:45,561 Speaker 5: little extracts. You know, VICKI, I miss you so much today, Vicky, 229 00:11:45,561 --> 00:11:48,841 Speaker 5: I wish you were here. But she knew she had 230 00:11:48,881 --> 00:11:52,081 Speaker 5: to live on and survive because of her remaining children. 231 00:11:52,161 --> 00:11:54,121 Speaker 3: So you found those diaries after her death. 232 00:11:54,561 --> 00:11:57,081 Speaker 5: My mom was always very conniving and my sister, my 233 00:11:57,121 --> 00:11:59,321 Speaker 5: other sister, Dinah, and I would say, Mom, can give 234 00:11:59,401 --> 00:12:01,121 Speaker 5: us a little read of those diaries. No, no, no, 235 00:12:01,201 --> 00:12:03,841 Speaker 5: you're not reading them. I didn't find all of them. 236 00:12:03,921 --> 00:12:05,641 Speaker 5: I think she thought she got rid of all of them. 237 00:12:05,641 --> 00:12:08,161 Speaker 5: But I found managed. I was just sitting there one 238 00:12:08,241 --> 00:12:10,121 Speaker 5: day when my mom passed. I was cleaning out the 239 00:12:10,121 --> 00:12:12,641 Speaker 5: house and I looked down. I'm like some diaries. 240 00:12:12,801 --> 00:12:16,561 Speaker 1: So we found some of them and it was just heartbreak. 241 00:12:17,441 --> 00:12:21,241 Speaker 3: And this way of expressing it in her diary was 242 00:12:21,281 --> 00:12:22,761 Speaker 3: a way of dealing with her trauma. 243 00:12:22,761 --> 00:12:27,961 Speaker 5: Do you think, Yes, absolutely, my mum was heartbroken, absolutely heartbroken, 244 00:12:27,961 --> 00:12:31,081 Speaker 5: but like I said, she needed to survive because of 245 00:12:31,201 --> 00:12:32,081 Speaker 5: her other children. 246 00:12:32,721 --> 00:12:35,441 Speaker 3: So people got on with things, didn't they. And there 247 00:12:35,561 --> 00:12:37,161 Speaker 3: was that view back in the day, and it's not 248 00:12:37,281 --> 00:12:40,601 Speaker 3: that long ago relatively, that it's better not to let 249 00:12:40,641 --> 00:12:44,001 Speaker 3: it go, better to keep going, keep living for the 250 00:12:44,041 --> 00:12:47,321 Speaker 3: other children. Yeah, I guess you're all watching each other 251 00:12:47,441 --> 00:12:52,721 Speaker 3: and seeing how you're coping. Did anyone ever ask you, Lizzie, 252 00:12:52,721 --> 00:12:54,601 Speaker 3: how you're going. I'll give you some strategies. 253 00:12:55,921 --> 00:13:00,001 Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, my mum and I've got a very supportive 254 00:13:00,241 --> 00:13:03,961 Speaker 5: family as well, so Phil's absolutely amazing. My sister Donna 255 00:13:04,561 --> 00:13:07,841 Speaker 5: is my best friend and we've got a special connection. 256 00:13:08,001 --> 00:13:10,481 Speaker 5: I call us the Special Sisters because there was a trio, 257 00:13:10,601 --> 00:13:14,281 Speaker 5: but now it's down to two and our connection is 258 00:13:14,361 --> 00:13:17,281 Speaker 5: absolutely amazing. And people actually even say to me, O, 259 00:13:17,401 --> 00:13:19,761 Speaker 5: Lizzie and I don't get along with my sister like that. Well, 260 00:13:19,801 --> 00:13:21,921 Speaker 5: you know, I love how you get along with yours 261 00:13:22,241 --> 00:13:24,201 Speaker 5: and we've got something special. 262 00:13:24,521 --> 00:13:25,801 Speaker 1: We all help each other out. 263 00:13:26,641 --> 00:13:29,921 Speaker 5: We all know as well that we're all going through 264 00:13:30,161 --> 00:13:30,921 Speaker 5: the same thing. 265 00:13:31,841 --> 00:13:33,681 Speaker 1: It's just it is a special connection. 266 00:13:34,001 --> 00:13:36,241 Speaker 5: And I find that now as well when I come 267 00:13:36,281 --> 00:13:40,641 Speaker 5: across other people that have lost siblings, daughters and so 268 00:13:40,801 --> 00:13:42,161 Speaker 5: on to murder. 269 00:13:43,801 --> 00:13:46,121 Speaker 3: The trauma of her murder is one thing, and it 270 00:13:46,161 --> 00:13:51,521 Speaker 3: is a murder, but then the cowardly piece of shit 271 00:13:52,921 --> 00:13:57,681 Speaker 3: contrives this provocation defense a mitigation. How did that sit 272 00:13:57,721 --> 00:13:58,481 Speaker 3: with everybody? 273 00:13:59,441 --> 00:14:00,201 Speaker 1: Not very well? 274 00:14:00,441 --> 00:14:03,761 Speaker 5: And to me, I was going through the courts as well, 275 00:14:03,841 --> 00:14:06,121 Speaker 5: so I think at that stage I have been about sixteen, 276 00:14:06,801 --> 00:14:10,441 Speaker 5: and I went to every single court hearing as well. 277 00:14:10,801 --> 00:14:15,321 Speaker 5: So it was very intimidating to see these men there 278 00:14:15,441 --> 00:14:18,241 Speaker 5: and in, you know, with their wigs on, and the judges, 279 00:14:18,281 --> 00:14:23,961 Speaker 5: and to have him come through all the witnesses and like, 280 00:14:24,001 --> 00:14:26,961 Speaker 5: this is the guy that's murdered my sister in arm's 281 00:14:27,041 --> 00:14:32,721 Speaker 5: length to us was absolutely like something was horrific, and 282 00:14:32,841 --> 00:14:35,601 Speaker 5: to be in a room where he was just there 283 00:14:35,881 --> 00:14:41,201 Speaker 5: absolutely terrifying, especially for younger young people like myself anyone, 284 00:14:41,961 --> 00:14:45,201 Speaker 5: but it was just something that was just horrible. 285 00:14:45,761 --> 00:14:46,721 Speaker 1: The law of provocation. 286 00:14:46,921 --> 00:14:50,721 Speaker 5: I didn't really understand how the law worked back then. 287 00:14:51,361 --> 00:14:55,241 Speaker 5: But then to see my sister, the way that she 288 00:14:55,481 --> 00:14:59,441 Speaker 5: was spoken about in the courts. I remember that they 289 00:14:59,521 --> 00:15:02,841 Speaker 5: were presenting photos to everyone in the court room or 290 00:15:02,881 --> 00:15:06,161 Speaker 5: the jurors. Now I didn't see a close of those photos, 291 00:15:06,201 --> 00:15:10,641 Speaker 5: but I can recall it was of her torso I believe, 292 00:15:11,121 --> 00:15:13,521 Speaker 5: and my sister was always a very proud person, and 293 00:15:13,601 --> 00:15:15,841 Speaker 5: I just think it was and the way that she 294 00:15:16,001 --> 00:15:20,441 Speaker 5: was represented in the courts, the way they spoke about her, 295 00:15:20,521 --> 00:15:22,201 Speaker 5: pretty much saying that she caused her. 296 00:15:22,121 --> 00:15:28,841 Speaker 3: Death unsubstantiated theory essentially that Vicky might have said something 297 00:15:28,881 --> 00:15:33,001 Speaker 3: to him. I mean, this bloke had been stalking her, 298 00:15:33,121 --> 00:15:37,681 Speaker 3: threatening her, had a history of violence. I mean, I 299 00:15:37,721 --> 00:15:40,481 Speaker 3: think that more ideal with these sorts of stories and 300 00:15:40,481 --> 00:15:42,281 Speaker 3: talk to people who've been through this process. I think 301 00:15:42,361 --> 00:15:45,281 Speaker 3: listeners should bear this in mind that when you're a 302 00:15:45,321 --> 00:15:49,401 Speaker 3: family of a victim, there's nobody in the court for you. 303 00:15:49,441 --> 00:15:52,161 Speaker 3: No everybody else is represented that you know. There's the 304 00:15:52,561 --> 00:15:54,481 Speaker 3: police are there, but they're not there for you. They're 305 00:15:54,481 --> 00:15:58,001 Speaker 3: there for the Crown prosecutors. There for the crown, judge, 306 00:15:58,001 --> 00:16:01,881 Speaker 3: for the defense, for the accused, who's looking after the. 307 00:16:02,761 --> 00:16:06,361 Speaker 1: Family, no one. We were lucky though. We were lucky that. 308 00:16:06,281 --> 00:16:09,201 Speaker 5: We had Phil who had a name for himself at 309 00:16:09,201 --> 00:16:13,401 Speaker 5: that stage and he was our representation, so he was 310 00:16:13,481 --> 00:16:18,361 Speaker 5: able to speak to people. I have gone into courtrooms recently, 311 00:16:18,481 --> 00:16:20,481 Speaker 5: or when I say recently, probably like in the last 312 00:16:21,441 --> 00:16:24,961 Speaker 5: five to ten years, and I have actually seen how 313 00:16:25,161 --> 00:16:31,041 Speaker 5: other family members dealt with and it's terrifying. I saw 314 00:16:31,081 --> 00:16:35,001 Speaker 5: a family spoken to in a courtroom and it was 315 00:16:35,081 --> 00:16:38,961 Speaker 5: just because one of their family members stopped the lawyer 316 00:16:39,441 --> 00:16:41,321 Speaker 5: and that was like five minutes and then off they went. 317 00:16:41,521 --> 00:16:45,561 Speaker 5: And that's how we get treated in our case as well. 318 00:16:45,601 --> 00:16:48,041 Speaker 5: I can't remember exactly what happened, but we even got 319 00:16:48,041 --> 00:16:50,201 Speaker 5: told we had to go and sit up up the top, 320 00:16:50,841 --> 00:16:53,361 Speaker 5: probably because I don't know, I think we sighed or 321 00:16:53,401 --> 00:16:57,841 Speaker 5: you know, said something, and we were treated just like terribly. 322 00:16:58,161 --> 00:16:59,281 Speaker 1: That's our sister, that's. 323 00:16:59,161 --> 00:17:02,441 Speaker 5: Our daughter, and we get told, okay, you know, you reprimanded, 324 00:17:02,721 --> 00:17:03,561 Speaker 5: go up to the top. 325 00:17:05,321 --> 00:17:08,681 Speaker 3: Just horrible, and the verdict and the sentence comes down. 326 00:17:08,801 --> 00:17:11,561 Speaker 3: Just remind people what Ko ended up being sentenced to. 327 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:15,521 Speaker 5: Three years and eleven months is what he served, and 328 00:17:15,561 --> 00:17:16,640 Speaker 5: then he was out. 329 00:17:17,041 --> 00:17:18,440 Speaker 1: We didn't know when he was getting out. 330 00:17:19,001 --> 00:17:21,761 Speaker 3: It was also we weren't told when he was getting out. 331 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 1: I don't believe. 332 00:17:22,961 --> 00:17:27,641 Speaker 3: So here you are. Now, you're about nineteen, and your 333 00:17:27,681 --> 00:17:31,321 Speaker 3: sister's killer is getting released, and you're unaware of when 334 00:17:31,360 --> 00:17:34,801 Speaker 3: he's being released. Again, the system is bending over backwards 335 00:17:34,801 --> 00:17:39,481 Speaker 3: to accommodate the killer and entirely forgetting the family of exactly. 336 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,881 Speaker 5: I'm also at that age where I'm out and about 337 00:17:44,481 --> 00:17:46,561 Speaker 5: and I'm thinking, do I need to look over. 338 00:17:46,561 --> 00:17:52,121 Speaker 1: My shoulder as well? Is he around for my own safety? 339 00:17:52,801 --> 00:17:57,481 Speaker 5: Because we knew he didn't like females, so I was, Yeah, 340 00:17:57,481 --> 00:17:58,921 Speaker 5: it was a little bit scary. 341 00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:02,481 Speaker 3: And this, I guess goes on for twelve years or 342 00:18:02,481 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 3: so after he's out of jail. What happens in two 343 00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 3: and one. 344 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: He committed suicide. A bit of relief for me. I 345 00:18:11,001 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: don't wish anyone to die, but some. 346 00:18:14,321 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 3: People get their right whack. Okay, I'm not going to 347 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 3: advocate suicide or criticize people, but somebody does that. I mean, 348 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:23,961 Speaker 3: I mean, I shouldn't be saying this. I'm supposed to 349 00:18:24,001 --> 00:18:26,041 Speaker 3: be objective, but I'm going to When you see the 350 00:18:26,281 --> 00:18:30,521 Speaker 3: impact that is wrought and then a minimal sentence. You think, 351 00:18:30,521 --> 00:18:33,761 Speaker 3: in the end, whether he's tortured by his deeds or 352 00:18:33,801 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 3: whatever's going on, he gets his right whack exactly. 353 00:18:36,961 --> 00:18:39,880 Speaker 5: I'm the person, like I said, I don't wish death 354 00:18:39,921 --> 00:18:42,401 Speaker 5: on anyone, but that was a relief. 355 00:18:43,481 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 1: And now I think about other people that I come 356 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:47,521 Speaker 1: across who have. 357 00:18:47,561 --> 00:18:52,841 Speaker 5: Lost loved ones to murder as well, and their perpetrators 358 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,681 Speaker 5: are in jail, but they're possibly got to face them 359 00:18:56,921 --> 00:18:57,681 Speaker 5: when they get out. 360 00:18:58,481 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: I don't have to do deal with that. 361 00:19:01,441 --> 00:19:03,721 Speaker 3: Relief for the family at this point, relief. 362 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: For me, Relief for the family. 363 00:19:05,561 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I guess you're expecting maybe things will improve. 364 00:19:10,521 --> 00:19:14,360 Speaker 3: But we're talking before about how trauma sets becomes a 365 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,921 Speaker 3: feature of your life. By this time, how had that 366 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 3: whole experience affected you? 367 00:19:20,481 --> 00:19:24,761 Speaker 5: Ah, so health wise it affected me. I ended up 368 00:19:24,801 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 5: having autoimmune disorders. And it was years later I was 369 00:19:28,481 --> 00:19:31,001 Speaker 5: going to see an dooctronologist and they said to me, 370 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 5: did you have anything traumatic happened to you when you 371 00:19:34,201 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 5: were younger? 372 00:19:35,201 --> 00:19:38,400 Speaker 1: I said, hi, yeah, said I had a sister that 373 00:19:38,521 --> 00:19:39,041 Speaker 1: was murdered. 374 00:19:39,801 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 5: And then it was like right, So, I mean, I 375 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:46,400 Speaker 5: can't one hundred percent blame that. But everything started to 376 00:19:46,481 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 5: happen obviously, I was a teenager, I'd had my sister murdered. 377 00:19:51,561 --> 00:19:55,360 Speaker 5: I was then having health issues. Then it becomes weight gain, 378 00:19:55,521 --> 00:19:58,880 Speaker 5: it becomes confidence, all sorts of other things going on. 379 00:19:59,201 --> 00:20:03,001 Speaker 1: I ended up with anxiety. I've had sleeping. 380 00:20:02,561 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 5: Issues, all sorts of stuff that It's been all of 381 00:20:05,921 --> 00:20:12,640 Speaker 5: my life. And I've seen numerous counselors, numerous grief experts. 382 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 5: Are finally found a psychoanalyst now, who I think is 383 00:20:16,521 --> 00:20:18,001 Speaker 5: making a difference in my life. 384 00:20:18,241 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 3: That's good. I guess it's a very tricky thing because 385 00:20:22,360 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 3: you're a survivor and you think yourself, well I survived. 386 00:20:26,441 --> 00:20:28,640 Speaker 3: Maybe it's just me. Maybe these things are just me. 387 00:20:28,721 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 3: It's not that, And I've got to distance myself and 388 00:20:31,801 --> 00:20:35,081 Speaker 3: not be self indulgent. But at the same time, these 389 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 3: things are real, absolutely, and you've got to carry this 390 00:20:38,321 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 3: burden and trying to describe to people who have not 391 00:20:41,241 --> 00:20:43,561 Speaker 3: gone through this is very difficult. People in Australia here 392 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,801 Speaker 3: live quite far from death. Death happens to old people 393 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 3: or cancer and things like that. When this violent death 394 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,361 Speaker 3: is very difficult for people to understand what it's can 395 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,321 Speaker 3: you give people a sense of it. 396 00:20:57,761 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 5: I can, and I often say, with the connection of 397 00:21:01,761 --> 00:21:04,241 Speaker 5: people that I've met that have got dealt with trauma 398 00:21:04,761 --> 00:21:08,801 Speaker 5: as well as in murdered siblings and daughters and so on, 399 00:21:09,681 --> 00:21:12,241 Speaker 5: they've joined the group that no one has wanted to join. 400 00:21:12,441 --> 00:21:15,321 Speaker 5: And unfortunately or fortunately, I don't know how you put it. 401 00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:19,561 Speaker 5: Every death is terrible, but it's completely different to your dad, 402 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,721 Speaker 5: your mum passing away, and like I said, and that 403 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:27,041 Speaker 5: really sounds really terrible. Every death is terrible, but this 404 00:21:27,360 --> 00:21:29,761 Speaker 5: is the way she died, how she died, how she 405 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 5: was feeling, she was scared, just the torture, and it's 406 00:21:35,521 --> 00:21:36,481 Speaker 5: just a terrible thing. 407 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:38,561 Speaker 1: It's just do I picture it in my head? 408 00:21:38,721 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's funny. I mean again, the risk of not 409 00:21:41,521 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 3: being very objective or sympathetic. I mean, my old mentor, 410 00:21:44,041 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 3: Brian Francis Murphy your next copper, used to say to me, 411 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:51,041 Speaker 3: some people need killing. And I think part of me 412 00:21:51,360 --> 00:21:53,441 Speaker 3: when you see some of the terrible people around who 413 00:21:53,481 --> 00:21:57,041 Speaker 3: inflicted this sort of trauma on people and then gain 414 00:21:57,120 --> 00:22:00,160 Speaker 3: the legal system, yeah, I do find it hard to 415 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:01,241 Speaker 3: have sympathy for them. 416 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:02,201 Speaker 1: I do. 417 00:22:02,721 --> 00:22:05,521 Speaker 5: I'm not a person that supports capital punishment and people. 418 00:22:05,561 --> 00:22:09,281 Speaker 5: Obviously people might think that that's a bit peculiar, but 419 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 5: I just people need to do their time. 420 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:13,961 Speaker 3: They do. 421 00:22:14,961 --> 00:22:18,681 Speaker 5: Look, sentencing has improved since then, it's got a long 422 00:22:18,721 --> 00:22:19,241 Speaker 5: way to go. 423 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:21,361 Speaker 1: It has an awful long way to go. 424 00:22:21,921 --> 00:22:23,161 Speaker 3: Well, I think it does too. And I think one 425 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 3: thing Phil and I talked about, which I think is 426 00:22:24,761 --> 00:22:29,281 Speaker 3: really relevant, is that the danger that women face when 427 00:22:29,321 --> 00:22:34,041 Speaker 3: they're getting separated. Yes, and this paper thin wall called 428 00:22:34,041 --> 00:22:37,801 Speaker 3: the AVO, which I don't think Bicky had, No, she didn't, 429 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,841 Speaker 3: So I think it's worth less than nothing. Mostly it's 430 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:45,001 Speaker 3: only as good as the police that enforce them. And 431 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 3: so I think that hasn't changed. I think it's actually 432 00:22:48,120 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 3: got worse in some ways. Frustration amongst men and the 433 00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:57,561 Speaker 3: propensity towards violence is shocking in this country, and I 434 00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 3: don't think we're addressing it. And it's even worse in 435 00:22:59,761 --> 00:23:02,360 Speaker 3: the indigenous community. Actually, I might look at that there 436 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 3: mean sort of, and even there it's it's again an 437 00:23:05,281 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 3: UNPC thing to say, but this is black people killing 438 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 3: each other, and so it gets when it's white on 439 00:23:13,041 --> 00:23:16,641 Speaker 3: black gets a lot of publicity. But inside these communities 440 00:23:16,681 --> 00:23:19,360 Speaker 3: they're not safe. They're at the bottom of the of 441 00:23:19,441 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 3: the pyramids that we're of safety. You well understand that. 442 00:23:22,961 --> 00:23:26,041 Speaker 3: And for you, I mean in your relationships with men 443 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,921 Speaker 3: for instance. After that, I mean, how has that been affected? 444 00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 5: I finally found a lovely man. But it was a 445 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:35,681 Speaker 5: lot of confidence in between. I went through health issues. 446 00:23:35,801 --> 00:23:40,561 Speaker 5: I gained a little bit of confidence and I met him. Man, 447 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:45,201 Speaker 5: he's absolutely wonderful. So we're going along really well. And 448 00:23:45,801 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 5: when I met him, I said, hey, listen, just to 449 00:23:49,281 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 5: let you know, this is my life and Vicki's in 450 00:23:52,801 --> 00:23:56,041 Speaker 5: my life every single day and that's not going to change. 451 00:23:56,041 --> 00:23:58,880 Speaker 5: But because it is hard on the in laws as well, 452 00:23:59,321 --> 00:24:02,961 Speaker 5: so they've got to put up with us, so to speak, 453 00:24:03,001 --> 00:24:06,801 Speaker 5: and be support. And he's at absolutely amazing And I said, 454 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,961 Speaker 5: you know, this is my passion and he is now 455 00:24:10,001 --> 00:24:12,801 Speaker 5: promoting it. He's coming, he does the walks with me, 456 00:24:12,961 --> 00:24:16,041 Speaker 5: comes to the rallies, and he's putting up stuff on 457 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 5: social media to men and he's reading saying to the 458 00:24:19,521 --> 00:24:21,241 Speaker 5: men out there, you know you need to do better. 459 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,801 Speaker 1: So he's been absolutely fantastic. 460 00:24:24,321 --> 00:24:25,641 Speaker 3: Fantast terrific shout out. 461 00:24:26,201 --> 00:24:26,880 Speaker 1: I must say. 462 00:24:27,001 --> 00:24:29,561 Speaker 5: When I met him, I foot, you know, Phil feel 463 00:24:29,721 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 5: it's very important what phel things of him as well. 464 00:24:32,041 --> 00:24:34,281 Speaker 1: Phil said to me one day, Lizzie, I really like him. 465 00:24:34,360 --> 00:24:35,201 Speaker 1: I really like him. 466 00:24:35,921 --> 00:24:39,521 Speaker 3: I'm like few a stern test. I've talked to many 467 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,680 Speaker 3: victims of violent crime and their families and one of 468 00:24:43,761 --> 00:24:46,401 Speaker 3: the current themes is that they don't want to live 469 00:24:46,441 --> 00:24:49,001 Speaker 3: with that all the time, and that there's a point 470 00:24:49,001 --> 00:24:51,120 Speaker 3: where they want to stop telling the story because it 471 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,880 Speaker 3: becomes them. Have you gone through that as well? 472 00:24:54,201 --> 00:24:56,441 Speaker 5: No, because I want to keep on telling their story 473 00:24:56,961 --> 00:24:59,640 Speaker 5: and I want to help other people out there on 474 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,601 Speaker 5: and to help other women as well. I'm now starting 475 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,161 Speaker 5: to find my voice. I'm being an a I've joined 476 00:25:06,241 --> 00:25:08,680 Speaker 5: advocate groups. I'm a member of gen West, which is 477 00:25:08,721 --> 00:25:14,120 Speaker 5: a fabulous group that we do Victims Advisory Council so 478 00:25:14,761 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 5: to try and give suggestions how they can improve with 479 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:22,801 Speaker 5: their services. And I actually attended a local council. I 480 00:25:22,961 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 5: tended Marybeck Council gathering last night for Women's Safety Forum. 481 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 5: And I want to fight for other women. 482 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:33,721 Speaker 3: It's so sorely needed. Give me a bit of a 483 00:25:33,761 --> 00:25:37,360 Speaker 3: run on your message then that you're advocating. 484 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 5: So I want to advocate because this needs to stop. 485 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:42,921 Speaker 1: It probably will never. 486 00:25:42,761 --> 00:25:46,160 Speaker 5: Stop, but I want to make it better, make it 487 00:25:46,241 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 5: easier for other women that are going through domestic violence 488 00:25:50,321 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 5: or violence. So there are ways and promote ways that 489 00:25:54,281 --> 00:25:57,841 Speaker 5: they can seek assistance and seek help and to get 490 00:25:57,880 --> 00:25:58,801 Speaker 5: out of it and survive. 491 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 3: The police are doing much better these days than they 492 00:26:01,721 --> 00:26:03,640 Speaker 3: ever did, but I think on the other side of 493 00:26:03,681 --> 00:26:07,561 Speaker 3: the coin, more women are reporting domestic violence. Therefore, it 494 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,401 Speaker 3: looks like a massive crisis, and it is still a crisis, 495 00:26:11,241 --> 00:26:15,801 Speaker 3: but we are seeing signs of positivity for the police 496 00:26:15,801 --> 00:26:17,801 Speaker 3: that they will attack this. I think the biggest issue 497 00:26:18,241 --> 00:26:22,360 Speaker 3: is around the AVOs and how they're enforced, and there's 498 00:26:22,481 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 3: nothing protecting women whatsoever. It's just the piece of paper. 499 00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 3: I've talked to Phil actually in the first part of 500 00:26:29,481 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 3: this interview about technology where these guys who are on 501 00:26:32,681 --> 00:26:36,921 Speaker 3: AVOs could have electronic monitoring and they can be done 502 00:26:37,001 --> 00:26:39,961 Speaker 3: just like the outsourced on the speed cameras that companies 503 00:26:40,001 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 3: doing that, and you'd monitor those guys and as soon 504 00:26:42,201 --> 00:26:45,041 Speaker 3: as they come within the prescribed distance being you know, 505 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,120 Speaker 3: maybe given a big electric shock as well. Maybe that's 506 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,281 Speaker 3: too much, but certainly an alert back to the system. 507 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,041 Speaker 3: I think because men are angry as well, there's a 508 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 3: lot of backlash against feminism in the Me Too movement, 509 00:26:57,481 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 3: a lot of men feel oppressed and they've lost their rights. 510 00:27:01,761 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 5: Yeah, and there's a lot of what about the men 511 00:27:04,441 --> 00:27:07,721 Speaker 5: as well? And look, I understand that violence against men 512 00:27:07,761 --> 00:27:10,761 Speaker 5: does exist, and sometimes it is the perpetrator is the woman. 513 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,801 Speaker 5: But a lot of men that are getting murdered are 514 00:27:14,801 --> 00:27:17,640 Speaker 5: getting murdered by other men. So men are getting murdered 515 00:27:17,681 --> 00:27:20,921 Speaker 5: by men. Women are getting murdered by men. Yes, there 516 00:27:21,001 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 5: is a small percentage of perpetrators that are women, but 517 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,241 Speaker 5: stand up with us too, don't just say what about 518 00:27:27,281 --> 00:27:27,601 Speaker 5: the men. 519 00:27:28,321 --> 00:27:31,241 Speaker 3: I'm actually amazed. I've spoken to many victims of domestic 520 00:27:31,321 --> 00:27:35,561 Speaker 3: violence women, and I think they're paragons of restraint that 521 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:37,961 Speaker 3: they don't wait till the perpetrators asleep and just bash 522 00:27:38,041 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 3: them over the head this type of thing. So the 523 00:27:40,481 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 3: women are actually keeping things together, the keeping the families 524 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 3: together off, that's right, and men have to respond. And 525 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 3: I think it's fantastic if you're finding your confidence to 526 00:27:49,921 --> 00:27:53,761 Speaker 3: speak on behalf of Vicky, because you wonder had Kio 527 00:27:54,521 --> 00:27:58,360 Speaker 3: had some sort of intervention earlier and been able to 528 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:02,041 Speaker 3: gain some insight, whether it's inside jail or through whatever 529 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,921 Speaker 3: program you know, maybe this whole thing could have been avoided. 530 00:28:06,561 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 5: Look, it's hard to say. Sometimes I just think that 531 00:28:09,801 --> 00:28:12,001 Speaker 5: it's just instilled. But of course we've got to try 532 00:28:12,001 --> 00:28:15,961 Speaker 5: and stop it, so from education when boys are young boys, 533 00:28:16,001 --> 00:28:18,920 Speaker 5: from their parents to and hopefully this is changing with 534 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 5: parents teaching. But yeah, we know there needs education out 535 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,561 Speaker 5: there to stop them. The supporting communities. I know Phil's 536 00:28:26,561 --> 00:28:28,761 Speaker 5: big in the football community, but we need to get 537 00:28:28,801 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 5: out there and stop the men's you know, all that business. 538 00:28:31,521 --> 00:28:33,041 Speaker 1: You know what happens in the locker room and all 539 00:28:33,041 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 1: that sort of stuff needs to stop. 540 00:28:35,041 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 3: And some of this toxic masculinity we're seeing on the 541 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,601 Speaker 3: internet now, people like Andrew Tate, Nick Foynte is a 542 00:28:40,601 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 3: few people out here who were trying to take us 543 00:28:42,761 --> 00:28:45,641 Speaker 3: back to an earlier era a sort of pushback against that. 544 00:28:45,721 --> 00:28:48,041 Speaker 3: And I think that's so dangerous. 545 00:28:47,921 --> 00:28:49,241 Speaker 1: Extremely dangerous. 546 00:28:49,281 --> 00:28:52,281 Speaker 5: And you've got young boys that are very they just 547 00:28:52,601 --> 00:28:55,201 Speaker 5: look at them in awe and it just all needs 548 00:28:55,241 --> 00:28:58,281 Speaker 5: to stop, we know. Yeah, then that's where the frustrating 549 00:28:58,321 --> 00:29:00,921 Speaker 5: thing is. So that's where I want to make a difference. 550 00:29:01,281 --> 00:29:06,641 Speaker 3: Yeah, certainly Phil has occupied his reef in his campaigns. 551 00:29:06,641 --> 00:29:09,201 Speaker 3: It continues on. He says as a war against women. Still, 552 00:29:09,281 --> 00:29:12,761 Speaker 3: I think he's dead right, He's found that, he's found 553 00:29:12,801 --> 00:29:14,721 Speaker 3: a purpose. I don't think you're ever going to find 554 00:29:14,721 --> 00:29:18,361 Speaker 3: a meaning to this situation, but a purpose. How important 555 00:29:18,481 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 3: has Phil's campaign been and the ongoing involvement of the 556 00:29:21,481 --> 00:29:25,001 Speaker 3: family in the Vicky Cleary Day, for instance, how does 557 00:29:25,041 --> 00:29:27,161 Speaker 3: that go for in terms of providing a purpose for you? 558 00:29:27,441 --> 00:29:28,761 Speaker 1: Extremely important. 559 00:29:28,961 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 5: I look at him and I just think I'm in 560 00:29:31,321 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 5: awe what he's done and what he's continuously doing. And 561 00:29:35,081 --> 00:29:39,041 Speaker 5: him and I we speak pretty much every second day. Look, 562 00:29:39,041 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 5: he provides me with guidance now because he's been going 563 00:29:43,441 --> 00:29:46,961 Speaker 5: through doing this all this time. So now he rings 564 00:29:47,001 --> 00:29:49,241 Speaker 5: me up and he gives me some lots of guidance 565 00:29:49,281 --> 00:29:51,801 Speaker 5: to say, Okay, maybe we go look at that avenue. 566 00:29:51,961 --> 00:29:54,561 Speaker 5: And now I'm starting to attend things where he might 567 00:29:54,601 --> 00:29:56,001 Speaker 5: not be able to and so on. 568 00:29:56,441 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 1: So we're like. 569 00:29:57,241 --> 00:29:59,161 Speaker 5: I actually spoke to him this morning and I said, 570 00:29:59,161 --> 00:30:01,601 Speaker 5: we're a good duo, and he said, yeah, we are. 571 00:30:02,241 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 5: So he's yeah, he's absolutely amazing to me. 572 00:30:06,041 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 3: So tell me about the Vicki Cleary Day. When is it? 573 00:30:08,601 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 3: And how do people may. 574 00:30:09,921 --> 00:30:11,961 Speaker 5: The twenty fourth? So I think it's a Sunday, May 575 00:30:12,001 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 5: the twenty fourth. There will be advertising going outs or 576 00:30:15,001 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 5: on social media. We put out as social media platforms 577 00:30:19,521 --> 00:30:22,961 Speaker 5: get people to share it. Also, Marribet Counsel are involved 578 00:30:23,001 --> 00:30:25,721 Speaker 5: as well, so they will be I'm sure they'll be 579 00:30:25,761 --> 00:30:28,401 Speaker 5: sharing it as well. And it's just a word of mouth. 580 00:30:28,561 --> 00:30:32,681 Speaker 5: We send out invites and it's a lovely day looks. 581 00:30:32,681 --> 00:30:34,601 Speaker 5: Sometimes it's a bit taxing, I must say, and a 582 00:30:34,601 --> 00:30:39,121 Speaker 5: bit emotional. We invite some victims, survivors, families to come along, 583 00:30:39,601 --> 00:30:39,961 Speaker 5: we have. 584 00:30:39,921 --> 00:30:42,001 Speaker 1: A chat, and it's not just about Vicki. 585 00:30:42,081 --> 00:30:45,081 Speaker 5: It's about women in general, as in women that are 586 00:30:45,081 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 5: suffering or domestic violence or have lost loved ones. 587 00:30:49,961 --> 00:30:53,761 Speaker 3: And in particular, I think the whole court experience was 588 00:30:53,801 --> 00:30:57,921 Speaker 3: about removing her voice from the court and that was assumed, 589 00:30:57,961 --> 00:31:02,121 Speaker 3: this provocation. Defense assumed actions that she may or may 590 00:31:02,121 --> 00:31:06,001 Speaker 3: not have taken. Probably didn't. So this sort of a 591 00:31:06,081 --> 00:31:08,161 Speaker 3: day gives her a voice back. 592 00:31:08,281 --> 00:31:09,321 Speaker 1: Absolutely it does. 593 00:31:09,921 --> 00:31:13,161 Speaker 5: And it's in Coburg and it's like stone's throw from 594 00:31:13,201 --> 00:31:17,201 Speaker 5: where she was murdered. We try not to make it 595 00:31:16,561 --> 00:31:19,681 Speaker 5: just to like where everyone's like crying and so on. 596 00:31:19,721 --> 00:31:21,481 Speaker 5: We had Mike Brady play there last year and that 597 00:31:21,601 --> 00:31:26,361 Speaker 5: was absolutely fabulous. So it's just to enlighten the day 598 00:31:26,601 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 5: and just say, hey, this is what's going on. 599 00:31:28,561 --> 00:31:31,001 Speaker 1: We need to bring attention to this, We. 600 00:31:30,961 --> 00:31:33,921 Speaker 5: Need to stop, we need to come up with ideas. 601 00:31:34,641 --> 00:31:39,081 Speaker 5: And also it's in the footballing community, so you've got 602 00:31:39,121 --> 00:31:42,041 Speaker 5: young men lined up there or playing on the ground 603 00:31:42,841 --> 00:31:45,401 Speaker 5: that are then spreading this to other young men and 604 00:31:45,441 --> 00:31:49,401 Speaker 5: moving it around as well. And now we've got also 605 00:31:49,441 --> 00:31:51,761 Speaker 5: Cutton respects with the gender equality as well, which is 606 00:31:51,801 --> 00:31:52,281 Speaker 5: really good. 607 00:31:52,841 --> 00:31:53,881 Speaker 1: We just need to. 608 00:31:53,801 --> 00:31:58,321 Speaker 3: Do more indeed, And for you, though, are you still grieving? 609 00:31:58,601 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 3: I mean, I don't think you ever stopped grieving for 610 00:32:00,241 --> 00:32:04,961 Speaker 3: these sorts of situations. And I wonder, can you visualize 611 00:32:05,201 --> 00:32:08,561 Speaker 3: goal in your life where you won't be feeling all 612 00:32:08,561 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 3: those negative feelings and you won't be thinking about the 613 00:32:11,001 --> 00:32:15,361 Speaker 3: perpetrator and he won't be overwhelming the positive memories of 614 00:32:15,401 --> 00:32:15,881 Speaker 3: your sister. 615 00:32:16,761 --> 00:32:19,961 Speaker 5: Unfortunately I can't see that. I still think of her 616 00:32:19,961 --> 00:32:23,681 Speaker 5: every day, but I then try and do things like 617 00:32:23,761 --> 00:32:27,761 Speaker 5: football love my football love, my music, love, my travel, 618 00:32:28,201 --> 00:32:31,721 Speaker 5: so I try to bring those along. My other sister 619 00:32:31,801 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 5: and I going on a two month trip to the 620 00:32:34,321 --> 00:32:37,361 Speaker 5: UK and a little bit of Europe coming up, so 621 00:32:38,121 --> 00:32:41,601 Speaker 5: We'll try and just refreshing myself then, and of course 622 00:32:41,641 --> 00:32:45,281 Speaker 5: footy and we're Carlton supporters. 623 00:32:45,521 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 3: That's a thankless task at the moment. I'm also Carlton supporter. 624 00:32:48,961 --> 00:32:51,841 Speaker 5: Yeah, and victim was a Carlton supporter, so and yeah, 625 00:32:51,921 --> 00:32:54,561 Speaker 5: so my dad was a massive Carlton supporter. So I 626 00:32:54,561 --> 00:32:57,281 Speaker 5: had no really saying it, and that's how I sort 627 00:32:57,281 --> 00:33:01,881 Speaker 5: of try and release my tensions. 628 00:33:03,041 --> 00:33:06,001 Speaker 3: What's your advice? There are lots of these victims listening 629 00:33:06,001 --> 00:33:07,721 Speaker 3: to this, and they get a lot of mail from 630 00:33:07,761 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 3: those sorts of people, and sometimes they focus on the 631 00:33:11,281 --> 00:33:14,241 Speaker 3: fact that they were the victim. Why do they feel 632 00:33:14,241 --> 00:33:17,161 Speaker 3: so bad? Why can't they get on with things? Why 633 00:33:17,201 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 3: can't they move on with life? What's your message to 634 00:33:20,081 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 3: them about your experience of the murder of your sister? 635 00:33:25,281 --> 00:33:28,001 Speaker 5: Seek help, So if you feel like you need to 636 00:33:28,001 --> 00:33:29,961 Speaker 5: speak to people, there's help out there. 637 00:33:30,441 --> 00:33:31,641 Speaker 1: Whether or not that help. 638 00:33:31,521 --> 00:33:36,121 Speaker 5: Might might actually help at the start. Unfortunately I found 639 00:33:36,241 --> 00:33:40,081 Speaker 5: counselors and someone that don't actually have experience with murder. 640 00:33:40,441 --> 00:33:43,121 Speaker 1: So you've got to try and find that right person. 641 00:33:43,641 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 5: And that's also what I'm advocating for as well in 642 00:33:46,481 --> 00:33:49,561 Speaker 5: my advocacy groups, to make sure that there is actually 643 00:33:49,721 --> 00:33:54,841 Speaker 5: trauma informed counselors out there, so try and seek assistance 644 00:33:55,201 --> 00:33:58,161 Speaker 5: with your doctor and so on. Reach out to any 645 00:33:58,241 --> 00:34:01,921 Speaker 5: organizations that you need that you try if you want help, 646 00:34:02,161 --> 00:34:05,801 Speaker 5: reach out to any of the organizations. If you feel 647 00:34:05,921 --> 00:34:08,721 Speaker 5: confident and comfortable that you can speak up, speak up, 648 00:34:09,921 --> 00:34:13,041 Speaker 5: reach out to even reach out to other organizations or 649 00:34:13,081 --> 00:34:14,081 Speaker 5: advocacy groups. 650 00:34:15,121 --> 00:34:17,361 Speaker 1: Sometimes, though, you've got to. 651 00:34:17,321 --> 00:34:21,001 Speaker 5: Be careful because if you have too much going on 652 00:34:21,401 --> 00:34:24,001 Speaker 5: and too many people reaching out, you can take a 653 00:34:24,041 --> 00:34:26,641 Speaker 5: back step as well. So you need to look after yourself. 654 00:34:27,481 --> 00:34:29,921 Speaker 3: You can't carry grief for everybody. 655 00:34:29,401 --> 00:34:35,161 Speaker 5: Absolutely, and you can't resolve everybody's grief, so you do 656 00:34:35,241 --> 00:34:36,521 Speaker 5: need to look after yourself. 657 00:34:38,121 --> 00:34:40,281 Speaker 3: That's good advice. I think I try far too much 658 00:34:40,321 --> 00:34:43,001 Speaker 3: to resolve these things. But I thank you for sharing 659 00:34:43,001 --> 00:34:46,321 Speaker 3: your story today, and I think your family has turned 660 00:34:46,561 --> 00:34:51,601 Speaker 3: a tragedy into something positive. Eventually, nothing will bring back Niki, 661 00:34:52,121 --> 00:34:56,681 Speaker 3: but Phil's work, your advocacy, your willingness to speak about 662 00:34:56,681 --> 00:35:00,361 Speaker 3: it will help other people get through this unimaginable tragedy. 663 00:35:00,401 --> 00:35:04,081 Speaker 3: So I really urge people to seek out the resources 664 00:35:04,081 --> 00:35:07,801 Speaker 3: that Lizzie's talking about about. Don't sit in silence, talk 665 00:35:07,841 --> 00:35:11,041 Speaker 3: to people I'll put some resources in the show notes, 666 00:35:11,401 --> 00:35:13,681 Speaker 3: but we have to look at better ways of protecting 667 00:35:13,681 --> 00:35:17,081 Speaker 3: women in the society. We can't just keep solving the 668 00:35:17,201 --> 00:35:19,281 Speaker 3: hurt of this. We've got to prevent it more and 669 00:35:19,361 --> 00:35:22,001 Speaker 3: I'm really keen. We talked about in the first episode 670 00:35:22,601 --> 00:35:26,201 Speaker 3: the idea of electronic monitoring of men when there are 671 00:35:26,201 --> 00:35:31,001 Speaker 3: AVO situations to keep them away, to give women a 672 00:35:31,681 --> 00:35:34,881 Speaker 3: margin of safety which they do not have right now. 673 00:35:35,401 --> 00:35:37,601 Speaker 3: I think we need to have a community discussion about this. 674 00:35:37,681 --> 00:35:39,641 Speaker 3: I want you to talk to me about this. If 675 00:35:39,641 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 3: you've been through an AVO situation where you've felt unsupported, 676 00:35:44,041 --> 00:35:46,561 Speaker 3: not safe, or maybe you have, maybe there's some police 677 00:35:46,601 --> 00:35:48,121 Speaker 3: stations that have helped you want to hear those stories 678 00:35:48,121 --> 00:35:51,481 Speaker 3: as well, so Adam shanderwriter at gmail dot com, please 679 00:35:51,681 --> 00:35:55,481 Speaker 3: share the stories. There's no sense in being quiet, and 680 00:35:55,481 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 3: the Cleary family is a good example of that. I'd 681 00:35:57,961 --> 00:36:01,521 Speaker 3: love talking to Phil and Lizzie about this, and I'm 682 00:36:01,521 --> 00:36:03,361 Speaker 3: sorry if it's been uncomfortable with some people, but this 683 00:36:03,401 --> 00:36:05,561 Speaker 3: is an uncomfortable discussion that we have have to have, 684 00:36:06,321 --> 00:36:09,321 Speaker 3: so please get in touch. Adam shanwriter at gmail dot com. 685 00:36:09,761 --> 00:36:12,281 Speaker 3: If you want to report a crime, please call Crime 686 00:36:12,281 --> 00:36:15,161 Speaker 3: stoppers one, an under, triple three, triples zero. You can 687 00:36:15,161 --> 00:36:16,841 Speaker 3: always email me if you don't trust the cops. As 688 00:36:16,841 --> 00:36:19,281 Speaker 3: I always say, Adam Shand, writer at gmail dot com, 689 00:36:19,601 --> 00:36:21,641 Speaker 3: but don't keep quiet. Thank you for listening. This has 690 00:36:21,641 --> 00:36:22,881 Speaker 3: been Adam Shand for real crime.