WEBVTT - The woman who exposed Robodebt 0:00:01.000 --> 0:00:04.519 This week, Rick Morton won the Prime Minister's Literary Awards 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:08.520 for his book Mainstreak. It's a huge achievement and we're 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:11.959 thrilled for him. This book was the combination of years 0:00:11.960 --> 0:00:16.200 of reporting on Robodet, a government scheme that destroyed lives 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:19.520 at seven Am. We were lucky enough to work with 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:21.640 the Rick on a series which we published in twenty 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:25.439 twenty three about how Robodet was allowed to happen. And 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:27.800 there's one episode from that series that we still think 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:30.319 about all the time about a woman who saw what 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:34.280 was happening and called it out. We hope you read 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:37.800 Rix's important book, Mainstreak, and we hope you enjoy this 0:00:37.920 --> 0:00:41.040 episode from our series Inside Robodet. 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:50.680 The Robodet Raw Commission has exposed an insidious scheme that 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:54.680 turned the machinery of an entire government against its own people. 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:58.800 The plan was to raise billions of dollars from welfare 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:03.920 recipients by convincing in them they had fake debts. Those 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:07.880 who imagined, designed and delivered it with their personal ambition 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:10.240 about the wellbeing of the people that were meant to serve. 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:14.320 But there were some on the front line who from 0:01:14.319 --> 0:01:18.720 the very beginning knew this government shakedown was wrong. One 0:01:18.760 --> 0:01:21.560 of those people was Colleen Taylor, who spoke up then 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:25.240 and came forward at the Royal Commission. She was the 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:27.520 one who told the truth and helped crack one of 0:01:27.520 --> 0:01:29.919 the greatest scandals in Australian government history. 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:30.959 Wide open. 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:35.679 Today we speak to the sending worker turned whistleblower, Colin Taylor, 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:39.240 about what really happened when Robodette was first rolled out 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:44.959 and just as the heads up, this episode does contain 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:47.640 some pretty serious language around suicide. 0:01:51.160 --> 0:02:02.800 Hello, come in, very strange moment for me. Have you 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:07.960 seen you on the Royal Commission? Welcome? Have a seat. 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:10.600 That's all right now, would you like something to coffee? 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:13.680 If I've just walked into Colin's house and it is small, 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:17.600 it's really small. She lives here on her own, and 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:20.080 she's wearing this little polka dot top and has already 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:23.200 offered me coffee I think about three times. And she'll 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:25.120 go on to offer all of our guests coffee and 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:28.760 tea and biscuits, probably between twelve and twenty times for 0:02:28.840 --> 0:02:30.079 for the end of this recording. 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:33.000 Now who we are I'm teaching myself as I get older. 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:35.040 That would be really much to have the food that 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:38.200 come up. Just help yourself. 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:41.840 She reminds me a little bit of my mother. I 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:44.079 must say. She's got statues and automents all around the 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:48.280 house and behind her as we start talking, there's these 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:52.160 statues of three meerkats who'll pop their heads up above 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:56.480 the dan. I guess, and are on the lookout, And 0:02:56.720 --> 0:02:59.160 I don't know, it seems perfect. That's Colin Taylor to me. 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:04.480 She is this small force of nature, methodical, wanting to 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:08.960 do the right thing, and always on guard. 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:13.480 So I'm Colleen Taylor, and I guess. Really I was 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:16.480 a career public servant because although I did work in 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:21.600 private industry, really from age eighteen onwards, I joined the 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:27.560 public service in nineteen eighty four and worked in. 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:29.960 So Colleen has spent almost her entire career in the 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:33.560 Australian public service. She joined in nineteen eighty four, first 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:36.760 with the Commonwealth Employment Service and then for Settling Proper, 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:40.600 where she moved into roles in compliance and quality review. 0:03:41.120 --> 0:03:44.240 She became essentially a fact checker, always on the lookout 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:47.640 for what was real and true, checking her colleagues and 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:51.120 making sure that the welfare system was running as it should. 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:53.440 You know, it was very much the culture then of 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:56.840 we called it getting it right, and so getting it 0:03:56.960 --> 0:04:01.240 right related to the customer because you have to be correct, 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:03.720 but you had to be consistent as well. So we 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:08.080 also knew that so many people were trying desperately shoe 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:11.280 the right thing, but often it was the Center Link 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:14.840 procedures that prevented them from doing the right thing. And 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:17.720 that's where it was so important that when we were 0:04:18.120 --> 0:04:20.760 investigating cases and looking at it, we're talking to people 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:23.560 about why this happened and looking at what letters they 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:26.039 were sent and what they were told. And you know, 0:04:26.120 --> 0:04:29.279 we used to waive debts, so we basically wrote debts 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:32.160 off because we could see quite clearly that this person 0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:34.599 had not intentionally tried to defraud the government. 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:37.919 See, Colleen was working in a system that used to 0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:40.400 help people, that gave them the benefit of the doubt. 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:44.799 But that changed in twenty fifteen when something very strange 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:46.760 started to happen at Centerlink. 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:53.680 It was a departmental head and he came and it 0:04:53.800 --> 0:04:57.360 was an all staff information session. He was going around 0:04:57.360 --> 0:04:59.520 to all the various teams and he came to us 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:03.320 Risbon and he was basically. 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:05.240 Frontline workers get a visit from one of the big 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:07.680 managers and they're told, hey, we're going to do things 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:11.800 a little differently around here. That different thing was what 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:12.400 we now know. 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:15.719 As robodet and he said, what's going to happen is 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:19.440 we're going to be able to raise debts from using 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:24.240 the PAYG data from the Tax Office and just averaging 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:28.400 it out over that PAYG period. And we all went, what, 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:30.159 how's that going to work? 0:05:31.000 --> 0:05:34.080 At the very least in twenty fifteen, frontline staff who 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:36.839 were briefed on this change knew it was morally and 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:38.039 mathematically wrong. 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:41.640 We knew that this was something that we would avoid, 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:44.599 and here he was saying, no, we're going to go 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:46.320 full steam ahead and we're going to be able to 0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:51.359 average across the PAYG period, when everything we did was 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:53.520 to avoid that as much as possible. 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:56.440 What management came and told Colleen and her colleagues was 0:05:56.520 --> 0:06:00.719 this compliance officers were to no longer look the files 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:03.039 of people on welfare that they already had access to 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:06.000 in their system. Further, they told them, don't go out 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:08.919 and find out information. Some had the power to go 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:11.880 to employers and get paylips, to go to banks and 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:16.160 get statements, and none of that happened. That was the change. Instead, 0:06:16.560 --> 0:06:19.000 all they were going to do was take an annual 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:23.360 figure already declared to the Australian Taxation Office and average 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:26.160 it out into equal discrete amounts over twenty six fortnights 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:29.400 in the year. They were going to use that to 0:06:29.480 --> 0:06:32.320 tell a customer, you've got a debt, even if they 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:34.719 knew that they didn't. 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:38.960 Even if you think, well, forget about you know, you 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:42.360 obviously have no concern about the customer, or maybe talk 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:47.800 about yourself, then wouldn't you find it easier to check 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:52.000 the record Thirty seconds sometimes is enough, then send the 0:06:52.040 --> 0:06:55.320 debt notice out, have the customer, then have to try 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:58.560 and contact, then have asked for a review, then have 0:06:58.640 --> 0:07:01.760 to go and review the dead and then there's a 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:04.680 whole process that has to be gone through, which could 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:07.200 have been stopped in thirty seconds from going out. But 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:09.760 there was this gung ho. It became like it's almost 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:13.880 like an accounting machine that you know, was devoid of 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:14.720 all humanity. 0:07:15.880 --> 0:07:17.960 They could never have known then that the powerful people 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:21.160 who cooked up the idea had legal advice that should 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:25.400 have unequivocally killed the idea before it ever began. Instead, 0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:28.280 they found themselves in a maddening battle for the truth 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:32.240 as people started dying. Perhaps more than anyone in the 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:35.760 then Department of Human Services, it was Colleen Taylor who 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:45.920 fought that fight. It almost ruined her. 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:50.320 And welcome back to Richard in our camera scidio. Is 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:52.480 Scott Morrison, the man who's stopped the boats and is 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:54.720 now going to stop Who knows what we'll find out? 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:55.280 Can I Scott? 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:57.800 How are you good? Graham? 0:07:58.320 --> 0:07:59.960 Who are you going to crack down on because of Blakeloke? 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:01.440 He's not going to sit there and do nothing. 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:01.640 Now? 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:04.480 Has that mean that anyone on the doll has got 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:04.880 to look. 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:08.560 Out, well, anyone who's who's trying to rip it Offter 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:10.720 is anyone who's trying to rip off the welfare system 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:13.720 because every welfare benefit paid every benefit. 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:17.239 So even deep within the Department of Human Services, Colleen 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:19.880 realized that this change was part of something much bigger. 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:23.800 In fact, hating on people on welfare had become almost 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:27.440 a national sport, and she realized that this was a 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:27.920 part of that. 0:08:28.680 --> 0:08:32.280 And everyone brought into this Okay, we've got ninety five 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:34.800 percent of people or more are ripping us off, so 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:39.640 let's get stuck into them, and I'm really ashamed of 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:46.800 the whole you know, from politicians to shock jocks, media, newspapers, 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:51.200 the public public writing in. You know, everyone brought into this. 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:53.720 You know, oh, let's get stuck into them. They're all 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:56.520 ripping us off, you know, and how much must that 0:08:56.600 --> 0:09:00.600 have made people feel? But it was also from us 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:02.880 as well, because you know, you have felt a shame 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:05.319 to be a public servant. That we knew this was wrong, 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:08.720 but oh here we were. We were just going a 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:10.720 lot to do about it, you know, and it's like, 0:09:11.440 --> 0:09:12.800 where was our moral fiber? 0:09:13.320 --> 0:09:18.400 So this approach of averaging income, it was raw greed roverdebt. 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:21.560 Could never have made the billions of dollars forecast for 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:25.600 the government without the assumption that every last one of 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:29.400 those so called discrepancies was going to result in a debt. 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:34.679 And to do that, everything had to be averaged. And 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:37.959 so this became a policy and it was rolled out 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:39.559 to staff like Colleen. 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:44.840 It never occurred to us that this was illegal. Why 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:47.079 would we we think, Okay, this is this is something 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:49.840 that's been formulated and it's come down and this is 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:52.400 what you've got to work with. So we thought, okay, 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:54.679 well this is what we've got to deal with. Let's 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:57.080 make it as fair as we possibly can. 0:09:57.200 --> 0:09:59.640 But here's the thing. Colleen had evidence that the system 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:02.800 wasn't being wrought it. She was being asked to hunt 0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:05.400 down people she knew from experience. We're not trying to 0:10:05.400 --> 0:10:08.280 do the wrong thing. In other words, she was being 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:09.480 asked to be complicit. 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:13.200 That was when I said, you're asking us to commit 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:17.040 a fraudulent act. And we have a fraud plan which 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:20.839 is supposed to be about identifying fraud within the employees, 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:23.640 and I said this should stand for our customers as well. 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:27.199 You are asking us to commit a fraudulent act by 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:31.200 allowing a debt to go through by saying, Okay, I 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:33.720 know there's something on the customer record that PU ows 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:37.040 there's no debt, but sorry, that was provided two years 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:38.240 ago and we can't use that. 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:41.880 Here's what I find so compelling about Colleen Taylor as 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:46.040 a person. She's methodical, and she applies this rigor to 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:50.080 her own morality. You know, here watching this new system 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:54.240 unfold against a backdrop of demonization, she is so disturbed 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:57.080 by what she sees that, you know, the ordinary procedures 0:10:57.080 --> 0:11:00.680 are not enough. She told her direct manager. Nothing happened. 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:03.920 She told the assistant director and was rebuked. And what's 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:06.520 a good, hard working employee to do. She reminds me 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:08.320 so much of these Metcats in this moment, because the 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:10.680 meercats aren't on the lookout for danger just for themselves. 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:14.160 They're doing it for the group, and Colleen is doing 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:16.040 all of this for other people. And so she goes 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:18.680 right to the top, and in doing so, Colin Taylor 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:22.680 transforms her own role in Robodette from disgusted onlooker to 0:11:22.960 --> 0:11:27.400 administrative action hero. She wrote to the most senior person 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:31.040 in her entire department, secretary Catherine Campbell. 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:34.080 And my feeling was that she's obviously being misled, because 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:37.680 I understood that at a secretary level, you wouldn't understand 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:40.360 the minutia of everything. And I thought, wow, who better 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:44.120 to tell her than me, who's been in the old 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:46.440 way and the new way, who was across at all, 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:51.360 who had the customer experience you have you. So I 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:53.920 started typing up my email and I would do this 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:56.280 at home and I'd be formulating and what have you. 0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:59.280 And I certainly ran it past my team leader to 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:03.200 be sat in there office and he said to me, oh, Colleen, 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:05.360 you really got to cut it down. They're just not 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:07.480 going to read that much. I think that was when 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:09.640 I burst into tears for one hundred and fiftieth time 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:12.200 and said, no, I'm not changing a thing. And so anyway, 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:13.080 then I sent it off. 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:19.200 And secretaries of departments have strict and unwavering obligations under 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:24.360 the law. Colleen Taylor thought Campbell was being misled. It 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:27.600 was in Campbell's best interest. She thought to read her 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:31.360 email very carefully and to treat it even more seriously. 0:12:32.679 --> 0:12:37.760 That morning, a phone call from Catherine Campbell saying we've 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:40.600 received this and we're onto it, and she was organizing. 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:42.480 She said, there'll be two of my staff we'll be 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:45.000 doing a phone hook up, which was being organized for 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:48.320 the next day. Very short conversation to say, Okay, I'm 0:12:48.360 --> 0:12:50.560 passing it on to these people to look at. And 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:52.800 so I went out and said my goodness, you know, 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:55.600 and was like, wow, they're listening. Is all great, and 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:58.280 you know, So then we had the phone hook up 0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:01.640 the next day and I base went through everything that 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:05.840 I'd gone through, and really I was pushing that, yes, 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:08.720 we're stuck with this averaging, because at that stage we 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:11.959 didn't realize that it was illegal. We thought were stuck 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:13.960 with it. I was impressing, Okay, if you're going to 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:18.360 do this averaging, this is all the bad results of it. 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:21.160 This is and then this is how the process is working, 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:23.640 and it's not working, and it's causing all sorts of 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:27.760 dreadful things. I mean, I was there, I think several hours. 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:32.280 Then in the end, I took the deep breath and 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:35.400 I just remember, as clear as day. Okay, so what 0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:39.040 you're saying is the old process was very time consuming 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:42.080 and laborious, and this is going to be much quicker 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:46.400 and whatever. And I thought, I've just wasted two hours 0:13:46.440 --> 0:13:50.120 of my life. And I remember going out to the 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:51.920 team leader and he went, I said, how to go? 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:53.560 And I said, I don't think she listened to a 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:54.200 word I said. 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:57.280 The question, of course, is whether they intended to listen 0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:00.800 at all. Neither Catherine Campbell nor any of her lieutenant's 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:03.760 dispatch to deal with the Erks and Colleen Taylor gave 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:06.000 any indication they knew the importance of what she was 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:09.400 desperately trying to tell them, Whether that was a studied 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:12.480 or a genuine ignorance. Colleen does not know what she 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:16.480 does know is that she understood exactly what the new 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:20.720 income averaging policy meant. She knew what Robodet would do. 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:23.560 So you felt as if there was nothing to be 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:28.080 cheapd But the very awful thing was I said to 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:31.080 them when I came up back upstairs after doing those 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:36.160 reviews and it was quite clear these debts were going 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:39.120 out with duplications of employers. I came up and I 0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:42.320 remember saying to them, you cannot do this to people. 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:46.480 People will commit suicide. You cannot do this to people. 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:49.120 And I remember one of the other team leaders said 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:52.400 to me, you're right, Colleen, but it's just gone too far. 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:02.520 Just weeks later, Colleen Taylor read about the death of 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:06.360 Reese Corso in the Saturday Paper. He was a twenty 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:09.760 eight year old florist, musician and beloved son and brother. 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:17.880 And then when sorry, when it came out in the 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:23.800 paper about Reyes, I remember that his beautiful face committing suicide. 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:26.880 I stormed into the manager and I said, look, it's 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:32.680 starting to happen, and it was just so awful. 0:15:34.400 --> 0:15:37.120 He was being hounded by private debt collectors on behalf 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:42.760 of Centerlink. The Royal Commission proved years later that his 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:47.320 debt belonged to the very first iteration of rubbodebt. He 0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:52.480 was being hunted via statutory fiction. He killed himself for 0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:55.600 a debt he did not owe. 0:15:55.840 --> 0:16:00.760 And anyway, so that was I left. I went on 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:06.320 to leave in I think May of twenty seventeen, and 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:10.000 took age retirement in July twenty seventeen. 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:14.040 But what really After Colleen Taylor retired, she received a 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:17.280 letter from the department. Now, remember she's been working there 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:21.360 since nineteen eighty four, She's been promoted, she's diligent, she 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:24.520 trains other people. But the letter wasn't to thank her 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:27.600 for her service. It was to remind her that she 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:30.120 faced two years in prison as she ever spoke about 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:33.040 anything she learned throughout her career as a public servant. 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:38.680 There was no other correspondence. In short, it was a 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:52.960 so long and shut up, we'll be back after this. 0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:08.000 Years passed for Colleen, sitting in retirement, scared that if 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:10.439 she ever spoke up about what she'd seen and heard, 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:14.440 she would be punished. Australia does not have a comfortable 0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:18.680 relationship with whistleblowers. After all, she feared losing her own 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:24.520 pension or worse. But five years after leaving the department, 0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:27.640 she saw an opportunity to tell part of her story. 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:31.200 The Royal Commission into Robodet was launched. 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:35.719 The Royal Commission will examine the establishment of the scheme, 0:17:35.880 --> 0:17:39.360 who was responsible for it, and why it was necessary, 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:44.520 how concerns were handled, how the scheme affected individuals, and 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:48.919 the financial cost to government, and measures to prevent this 0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:50.840 ever happening again. 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:55.040 So Colleen worked up the courage to make an anonymous submission. 0:17:55.320 --> 0:17:59.440 Well what happened was I knew that it was important 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:02.919 because of the detail, and I thought they're not going 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:05.000 to understand how this worked in practice. 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:08.320 And soon after the Guardian Australia reporter Luke henriy Gerns 0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:09.040 tracked her. 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:12.320 Down and so I rang him and he said, your 0:18:12.440 --> 0:18:16.000 name is already out there. It's your emails are part 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:19.240 of the exhibits and it's in there on their website. 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:20.320 And I went. 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:23.359 Wholy, And she thought she was going to jail. 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:26.679 The next thing Royal commissioners wanting to get in contact 0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:28.639 with you. So we went through the whole song and 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:32.359 Dad's again. So we went in there and talked to 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:36.680 them and stupid me, I'm thinking, there's this lady there 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:39.920 who was excellent. They were all wonderful. She's typing away 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:43.520 furiously on a laptop and no, no, I can't. I'll 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:45.440 mention so you've got a bit of background, but I really, 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:48.840 you know anyway, so the next thing, well, if we'd 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:51.119 like you to appears No, no, no, no, no no, 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:53.520 I couldn't do that. And then well okay, and so 0:18:53.560 --> 0:18:56.480 they did a few sample questions and I said, come, 0:18:56.600 --> 0:18:58.840 I'm much better at writing things down. Could I just 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:01.680 write something down? And then it's like, well we will 0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:04.119 do a statement. Oh okay, I'll do a statement. And 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:06.040 of course that's what I haven't realized. This person who's 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:09.520 been tapping away furiously is basically is the statement writing 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:11.040 my statement. But I mean we went through it. We 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:14.080 spent a whole day. It's always going through and changing 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:15.800 it so that you know, I was happy with the 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:17.960 statement and what have you. And then it was okay, 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:20.239 well then you're going to be as a witness, and 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:23.400 so oh no, And I really thought that I would 0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:25.439 either freeze or I'd burst into tears. 0:19:26.000 --> 0:19:28.359 A commissioner. I call Colleen Taylor. 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:32.400 Miss Taylor, before you sit down, can I ask would 0:19:32.400 --> 0:19:34.440 you prefer to take an oath or an affirmation. 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:38.000 So I was there sitting in the anti chamber or 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:40.159 what it was. I waited so long that I'd just 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:42.440 lost all my nerves what have you? And the other 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:44.479 thing I did is I took off my glasses so 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:48.720 I couldn't actually see people in the distance, and that helped. 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:51.000 And I said to mister Scott, I'm just going to 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:53.240 focus on you. 0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:56.520 You were formerly an employee of the Australian Public Service, 0:19:58.600 --> 0:20:01.800 and would this be right? You started your employment in 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:05.399 the Australian Public Service on her about the year nineteen 0:20:05.440 --> 0:20:05.960 eighty four. 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:08.040 And this is a big deal for Colleen because she's 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:10.040 not like the senior public servants who are called to 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:13.959 give evidence that Senate estimates or other parliamentary inquiries, or 0:20:14.000 --> 0:20:16.920 god forbid a robot at Royal Commission, where they're compelled 0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:22.840 to give testimony. Colin is a normal person and what 0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:26.000 makes her evidence so critical is that she never suffered 0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:29.480 the curious lapses of memory that seemed to affect her superiors. 0:20:30.000 --> 0:20:33.560 She remembered the details that other people just apparently didn't. 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:37.280 She remembered how the system used to work, all its 0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:41.800 parts and procedures, and protocols and critically she knew what 0:20:41.840 --> 0:20:45.040 had changed and could explain how those changes happened. 0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:47.840 And then these are your words. 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:51.000 Please allow me, as a loyal employee of many years 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:53.639 standing who has only ever raised concerns in house, to 0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:55.960 respond to you directly, as your statement tells me that 0:20:56.000 --> 0:20:59.000 you are being misled, and I want to ensure my 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:01.800 words reach you. We cannot find a solution if the 0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:05.040 problem is not correctly identified. It is possible we are 0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:08.560 not even looking in the right direction for a solution. 0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:11.840 And then the words in bold, there has been a 0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:14.800 very dramatic change within the last eighteen months to the 0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:18.440 way in which compliance successes income and calculates and recovers debt. 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:23.920 See that, yes, And was that your belief that there 0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:25.600 had in fact been a dramatic change. 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:31.400 Absolutely, and this wasn't an iteration in debt recovery. This 0:21:31.520 --> 0:21:35.440 was a brand new money grab. Colleen remembered all of this, 0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:39.320 and when the Royal Commission came knocking, she told them. 0:21:39.800 --> 0:21:41.800 I feel really blessed so that I had the opportunity 0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:45.280 to be at the Royal Commission, because I think people 0:21:45.359 --> 0:21:48.159 must have had days and days and days and weeks 0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:51.280 of people going I don't remember, I don't recall. I 0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:53.080 wasn't there. I didn't get that email or. 0:21:53.080 --> 0:21:53.560 What have you. 0:21:53.880 --> 0:21:55.760 And it must have been a breath of fresh air 0:21:56.280 --> 0:22:00.240 someone to come along and say it was wrong and 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:04.800 be specific about why it was wrong and that they knew. 0:22:05.760 --> 0:22:07.600 When did you finish your employment? 0:22:08.359 --> 0:22:11.879 I retired age retired in July twenty seventeen. 0:22:12.640 --> 0:22:14.800 Can you tell us what the reason was for retiring. 0:22:15.680 --> 0:22:20.280 I I just was spent. I think I just it 0:22:20.359 --> 0:22:26.200 was just the I guess, callous indifference that you just thought, 0:22:27.000 --> 0:22:28.960 it's just what people do to each other, and it 0:22:29.040 --> 0:22:33.439 was just so sad and it was and you just 0:22:33.480 --> 0:22:35.960 thought nothing's going to change. And it seemed to that 0:22:36.040 --> 0:22:39.639 it was for me hard to believe. I am a 0:22:39.640 --> 0:22:42.840 shy personal I am. I just didn't want to be 0:22:42.840 --> 0:22:45.199 front and center. I just thought, oh, this is I 0:22:45.240 --> 0:22:47.840