1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,960 Speaker 1: I've got my photos kind of here, thinking one day 2 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: I'll put them on the wall. 3 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 2: But Ivette Elliott is showing me some photos in her home. 4 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 3: It was just a moment in time where it kind 5 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 3: of captured. 6 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 2: I've just arrived, we haven't set up for a proper 7 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 2: interview yet, and Yvette's dog starts bouncing around us in 8 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:20,760 Speaker 2: excitement before So this. 9 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: Is brilliant after bite. 10 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 3: The day. 11 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 2: Vette's house is neat and nice, white walls, the afternoon 12 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 2: sun coming through the windows, and Avette herself is lovely. 13 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 2: She's welcoming but also worried. The photos make her think 14 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 2: back to a different time years ago now in lan Cove. 15 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:48,559 Speaker 1: So we were all lane Cove Ladies, and we've all 16 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: lived in and around lane Cove. 17 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 2: Lane Cove is a suburb in Sydney. It's a bit posh, 18 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 2: and the lane Cove Ladies were just that, a group 19 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 2: of women who'd meet up once a month and talk 20 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 2: about their lives and their careers and their children. 21 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 4: So we used to go to a music festival. 22 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: When the music festivals were they were like a wine 23 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: and food festivals, and the kids had just dance at 24 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: the front. 25 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 2: One of those kids was William tyrrel that was the 26 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 2: happy days. 27 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 5: Yeah, looks I just wonder what would we all be 28 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 5: doing now if it wasn't for. 29 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 2: What happened, and suggesting that what happened to William may 30 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 2: fractured that group. 31 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:36,479 Speaker 6: Oh, absolutely everything regarding our relationship changed. 32 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 2: Years after William was reported missing, detectives turned up at 33 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 2: a Vett's door without warning. She and I sit down 34 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 2: together for the proper interview, and Ivett tells me what 35 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 2: the police asked her. 36 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: It was incredibly targeted. It was very, very targeted, and 37 00:01:56,160 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: they were trying to find something. And I ask them 38 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: whether they had any suspects, and they said definitively yes 39 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: that they did. And there was a lot of questions, 40 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: and I guess, thinking back now, they were probably cleverly 41 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: put together. Majority of it seemed to be very focused 42 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: on William's mum. 43 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 2: After a couple of hours, Ivette tells me the police 44 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 2: left finishing our interview, I turn off the microphone and 45 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 2: then Ivette tells me how, after saying goodbye to the detectives, 46 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 2: she phoned her old friend William's foster mother, saying, I've 47 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 2: just been interviewed by the police. And it was the 48 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 2: weirdest thing, and William's foster mother told her another of 49 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 2: the Lane Cove ladies had just called, saying detectives had 50 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 2: also been asking her questions. William's foster mother told Yvette 51 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 2: the police were trying to throw her under the bus. 52 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 2: I'm Dan Box and from news to dot com dot Au. 53 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 2: This is Witness William Tyrrell. Episode three, The Foster Parents. 54 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 7: Hello, La La Tokyo, Mike one, do your close slide on? 55 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 2: Okay, so this is unscripted ye, So, Nina, you're the 56 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 2: producer on this podcast. You've seen more than most people. 57 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 2: You've been through documents, interview statements, seen or listened to 58 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 2: hours of interviews that we've done so far. So at 59 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 2: this stage months in, what do you think of the 60 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 2: foster parents? 61 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 7: I think I'd like to say up front that I 62 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 7: currently do not have any inkling theory predisposition on what 63 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 7: happened to William. And the reason for that is if 64 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 7: you read through everything, I think you could make a 65 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 7: flimsy case for almost any person of interest, and that 66 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:19,039 Speaker 7: includes to me, the foster parents. 67 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 2: It feels like everyone has an opinion on them. We 68 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,280 Speaker 2: can't name them for legal reasons, but their lives have 69 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:29,160 Speaker 2: been made public on front pages and newspapers and online 70 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 2: in excruciating detail. Have a look at this, That is 71 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 2: incoming passenger cards dug out of the National. 72 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 7: Archives, so that the date on this document is nineteen 73 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 7: sixty eight. 74 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's passenger cards from nineteen sixty eight in nineteen 75 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 2: seventy showing the entry of a family into Australia from 76 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 2: Papua New Guinea. 77 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 7: Okay, what's a passenger card. 78 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 2: Passenger card is when you fly into Australia if you 79 00:04:58,560 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 2: catch a ship in you have to fill in your 80 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 2: details saying who you are, where you're going to be staying, 81 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 2: who your parents are. If you're a child, and one 82 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 2: of these passengers is a child born a few years earlier. 83 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 2: It's William's foster mother, and you can see her father's 84 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 2: an engineer, her mother's listed as a housewife. The reason 85 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 2: for their journey is a holiday. They're going to stay 86 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 2: a month. You've got the flight number, you've got the 87 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 2: address in Queensland where they're going to be staying. Someone's 88 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 2: gone into the National Archives and dug these out then 89 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:36,720 Speaker 2: shared them online. Yeah, they've been poured over and commented 90 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 2: on probably seen by I'm guessing hundreds, maybe thousands, these 91 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 2: have been sent to journalists, so I've been sent them. 92 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 7: Is what's supposed to be the significance of it. 93 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 2: I don't know. The person who sent those to me 94 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,160 Speaker 2: told me you could do a whole podcast episode on 95 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:56,559 Speaker 2: those passenger cars. 96 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 7: Okay, and I can say that's not interesting. 97 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:01,799 Speaker 2: But that's the level of Attentionilliam's foster mother and her husband. 98 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 7: I think that's terrible. And I couldn't imagine living like that. 99 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 7: Just having every element of your life under the microscope 100 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 7: must have been it must be horrifying for them. 101 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 2: Okay, let's jump forward to nineteen ninety six. 102 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 8: So in nineteen ninety six, I started working at a 103 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 8: new company and she was already there. 104 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 2: This is another of the foster mother's close friends. She 105 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 2: doesn't want to be identified, so these are her words, 106 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 2: but not her voice. 107 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 8: So we kind of bonded and bonded at work and 108 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 8: then bonded out of work and became a friendship outside of. 109 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 2: Work as well. And what was your impression of her? 110 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 8: Smart? She was smart. She was fun though, like it 111 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:46,919 Speaker 8: was just you know, we'd go out shopping at lunchtime 112 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 8: sometimes just try on dresses. It was just fun. We 113 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 8: were both sort of thirty thirty ish. Yeah, I think 114 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 8: I just turned thirty after I started there. 115 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 2: A few years later, this friend was a bridesmaid at 116 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 2: the foster mother's wedding. 117 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:04,919 Speaker 8: We went up the night before because we had They 118 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 8: put on like welcome drinks for everybody on the Friday night, 119 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 8: and then on the day we had hair and makeup done. 120 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 8: It was just a happy day, you know. We went 121 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 8: in an old car, and the groom and his groomsmen 122 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 8: showed up in a helicopter, which I'm not sure if 123 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 8: the bride even knew about. She probably did, but I 124 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 8: didn't know. It was hilarious. The red helicopter came in. 125 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 8: It was just fun. It was really, really nice. 126 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 2: She says. The couple wanted to have a family, but 127 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 2: they couldn't, and the reasons for that are personal and 128 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 2: they're deeply painful. They did have IVF for years. William's 129 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 2: Fosterman would later tell detectives she wanted to have five 130 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 2: or six children. She'd tell police that she also always 131 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 2: wanted to foster and adopt. She'd say she'd always grown 132 00:07:56,240 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 2: up wanting to help others and it's weird, you'd tell police. 133 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 2: That's a direct quote. But I always knew I would 134 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 2: end up having children that weren't mine. 135 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 8: When they first started fostering, I was taken by how 136 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 8: naturally they took to parenting. 137 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 2: This is from a written reference her friend would later 138 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 2: provide for William's foster parents. 139 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 8: They were not foster parents, they were parents. None of 140 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 8: our friendship group considered the children to be foster children. 141 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 8: They were simply their children. They did what lots of 142 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 8: other families with young children do. They had a toy room, 143 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,439 Speaker 8: they ate dinner together as a family, went on holidays 144 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 8: to the park, bike riding adventures, and as the children 145 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,559 Speaker 8: grew up, they were a normal, close family. 146 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 2: I also spoke to another of the foster mother's close friends, Sarah. 147 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 9: I thought she was a wonderful parent. I mean, I 148 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:54,079 Speaker 9: thought she was very thoughtful and considered, very loving, and 149 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 9: the children loved her. 150 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 2: Did you get any sense that there were difficulties within 151 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 2: that household at that time? 152 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 9: Oh no, none at all. 153 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:08,599 Speaker 10: I mean I would say nothing other than what a 154 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 10: normal parenting children family life is. You know, like nothing's perfect, 155 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:16,959 Speaker 10: nothing's all roses and unicorns and rainbows. 156 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 11: But no. 157 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 9: I think her and her husband both unbelievably good parents. 158 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 10: And you know, I'm William in particular if the foster 159 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 10: father was away and then would come home and he'd 160 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 10: be running towards him to greet him. But the just 161 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 10: the absolute love was was amazing. And I think even 162 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 10: you know, in the videos that they've had in the media, 163 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 10: the home videos, like, I think it's very evident. 164 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 5: William, you're doing really well. 165 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:10,319 Speaker 2: A third friend, Avet Elliott, showed me that photograph of 166 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,439 Speaker 2: their families together and talked about the Lane Cove Ladies. 167 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:18,679 Speaker 1: I remember just coming up to Christmas and you know, 168 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: it was the gathering again of Lane Cove Ladies, and 169 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: our kids were all of the same age. William being 170 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 1: a couple of years younger, you know, was my son's shadow. 171 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 7: Because he was the bigger boy. 172 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 1: They were fun times, you know, we were just living life. 173 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 7: I guess there was. 174 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: Without thinking it was just a it was just you know, 175 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 1: a magical time. There was no evil, you know, there 176 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 1: was no evilness that was to come. 177 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:51,679 Speaker 2: William was nine months old when he came to live 178 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 2: with his foster parents. That was March twenty twelve. So Nina, 179 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 2: this is the point when you start to have questions. 180 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 7: We don't necessarily have questions about the relationship between them 181 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,839 Speaker 7: and William, because I think it's fairly documented, and the 182 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 7: picture that's painted, I think it paints the picture of 183 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 7: a mother who is really struggling. She says at one 184 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 7: stage that by eight am in the morning, she's already 185 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 7: incredibly frustrated and can't believe that she could be feeling 186 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 7: that way by eight am in the morning, and it 187 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 7: isn't going to be sunshine and rainbows all the time. 188 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 7: Totally understandable. Where I start to have questions is how 189 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 7: the foster mother described the relationship with William to the police. 190 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:41,199 Speaker 7: It just there seems like there's a disconnect between what 191 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 7: I'm seeing in the foster care documents and what has 192 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 7: been painted as quite a happy relationship in police statements. 193 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 2: Well, let's unpack that. So the foster parents are very 194 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 2: rarely spoken. This is them describing William is the. 195 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 12: The cheeky, vibrant little little boy, full of energy, loves 196 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 12: interacting with his sister, he loved interacting with us. 197 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 2: It's from an interview released by police less than a 198 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 2: year after William was reported missing. 199 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 12: I mean, he's my little boy, just bringing me to tears. 200 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 12: Pretty cheeky, very chey, but also they've got that, they've 201 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:28,839 Speaker 12: got that love, you know, and the father and boy 202 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 12: love that you know he had. 203 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 5: It was just. 204 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 11: He adored, he adored, he adored his dad. 205 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:41,319 Speaker 13: Just absolutely his eyes and there was a smile like 206 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 13: I look at some of the back at some of 207 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,679 Speaker 13: the pictures, and I look at pictures when William was 208 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 13: swineing smiling for me, and I look at pictures where 209 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 13: William was smiling for. 210 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 4: His dad, and it's different. Oh, completely. 211 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 11: They adored each other, absolutely adored each. 212 00:12:57,760 --> 00:12:58,959 Speaker 4: Other, and it's heartbreaking. 213 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,199 Speaker 2: And a few months later, on the first anniversary of 214 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:07,559 Speaker 2: William's disappearance, William's foster parents recorded an interview with the 215 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 2: journalist Leah Harris from the Sunday Telegraph. The audio is 216 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 2: not great, but you can hear them saying the same thing. 217 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 2: One of their friends told me how William would always 218 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 2: be waiting for his foster father to arrive home from work. 219 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 14: Who would always wait at a frondom with his sisters 220 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 14: driving the driveway. That would be just leaping, running and jumping. 221 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 14: That was the highla of my day. 222 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 15: Every day, really and I'm sure the high out of 223 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 15: these turks, you know, I'm come him and hogs and 224 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:40,599 Speaker 15: puddles and kisses and go and start and start to 225 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 15: do the routine of about time and dinner and all 226 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 15: those sorts of things. 227 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,959 Speaker 2: Eight years later, in twenty twenty two, the foster parents 228 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 2: recorded another interview with Leah Harris, who by now was 229 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 2: working as a TV reporter for Network ten. She asked 230 00:13:57,720 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 2: them to describe their family life. 231 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 5: Just. 232 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 11: Life was an adventure, and it was to be enjoyed, 233 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 11: and it was all about learning, discovery and just being 234 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:16,719 Speaker 11: so innocent and just it's that join us of just 235 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 11: being so innocent and loving life that I remember most 236 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 11: about William. 237 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 4: How did him coming into your lives change your lives? 238 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 3: Changed it forever, but in a really positive way. 239 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 2: Nina, What you were saying was that we've got more 240 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 2: than one account of that family's life together. There's what 241 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 2: we know from the foster care records, is what we 242 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 2: know from court hearings. In April twenty twelve, a month 243 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 2: after William came to stay with his foster parents, an 244 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 2: official from the state government team that was supporting the 245 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 2: foster care visits the home and he'd later say in court, 246 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 2: and I was there that the foster parents disciplined William's 247 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 2: sister using time out, but for them, time out meant 248 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 2: time outside and the sister was two at the time. 249 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 7: See there's that's judgment. But yeah, I would agree that's 250 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 7: not appropriate for a two year old, which isn't w 251 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 7: ashume what the foster care person was saying. 252 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And the foster mum also told this official 253 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 2: that she'd threatened to smack William's sister but had never 254 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 2: done it. And we've got other documents. So eleventh of 255 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 2: October twenty thirteen, William shows a strong preference for his 256 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 2: foster dad but rejects interaction with his foster mum, and 257 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 2: this is what you were talking about. Twenty ninth of 258 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 2: October twenty thirteen, the foster mum emailed their caseworker about 259 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 2: William's behavioral issues and she says it's like he's operating 260 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 2: at warp speed. He's recorded as being defiant and sullen 261 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 2: at daycare, but both of those are after a contact 262 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 2: visit with his biological parents, and that's a pattern. So 263 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 2: the worst of it that I can find is William 264 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 2: cutting the hair with other kids at childcare and deliberately 265 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 2: urinating on the floor, which are pretty bad behaviors, and 266 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 2: more than once, the foster mum emailed their caseworker saying 267 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 2: she was struggling to understand why those contact visits couldn't 268 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 2: be less frequent, and she says she was quote very 269 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 2: tired physically and emotionally. Do you read anything into that? 270 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, like I said, that all sounds relatively 271 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 7: what I would expect for a child as in foster care. 272 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 7: He's quite a young child. I can imagine that it 273 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 7: would be really confusing for a kid to have these 274 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 7: regular visits with one set of parents, go home to 275 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 7: another set of parents and struggle to understand that. So 276 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 7: that all sounds I think okay, And I can imagine 277 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 7: that she would be feeling tired and frustrated, and look. 278 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 2: Being a parent isn't easy. Nice you're a parent. I'm 279 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 2: a parent. I've got three year old, ten year old 280 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 2: and a thirteen year old, and I get tired and 281 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:18,680 Speaker 2: at times I might have thrown things just to deal 282 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 2: with I mean, there's frustration. There's been times when the 283 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 2: three year old and I are both shouting at each other. 284 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,880 Speaker 2: But the difference is my life isn't documented. 285 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 7: It's not documented. 286 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, so there is evidence in these documents that William's 287 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 2: foster care placement was working, and you can hear it 288 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 2: in those home videos and in the documents. His foster 289 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 2: care placement is described as being very stable. When William 290 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 2: had his third birthday, his foster mum made him a 291 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 2: cake in the shape of a fire engine. 292 00:17:58,560 --> 00:17:59,719 Speaker 3: Happy birthday, William. 293 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 2: They are good, dear, have you finished now? 294 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 4: Our dear dear lucky fingers, look your hair. 295 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 2: And William told his caseworker that he really loved his party, 296 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 2: which was held in the family's backyard. There was friends 297 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 2: from daycare and neighbors. This is mid twenty fourteen, a 298 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 2: few months before he went missing, and at times the 299 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 2: records of his foster care show his behavior seeming to 300 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 2: get better. It might take only twenty or thirty minutes 301 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 2: to settle him in bed at night, rather than hours 302 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:37,199 Speaker 2: at other times, though his behavior is harder to manage. 303 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 2: There's hyperactivity he described as slapping and punching his care 304 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 2: as his defiant oppositional behavior. It's not the simple, happy 305 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 2: family that the foster care parents have described in public, 306 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 2: and William's foster mum is quite a private person, and 307 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:04,239 Speaker 2: she's quite controlled and maybe be controlling. This is her 308 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 2: talking to Leah Harris again. 309 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 5: It's just so personal for us. I feel like I 310 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 5: want to keep a lot of those really special memories 311 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 5: for us personal. There are family memories, and I know 312 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 5: people want to know more, but I just I've just 313 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 5: got to keep something's private and special. It's just really 314 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 5: hard now to keep talking about what happened on that morning. 315 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 2: William's foster care worker went to the family's house on 316 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 2: the fifth of September twenty fourteen, so that's nine days 317 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 2: before William goes missing, and the records say that William 318 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:50,199 Speaker 2: ran up and hugged his caseworker around his legs. William 319 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,400 Speaker 2: was wearing his Spider Man costume, which was his favorite, 320 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 2: and the foster mum said William's behavior had been a 321 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 2: struggle since the last contact visit with his parents, and 322 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 2: for a while there'd been this back and forth where 323 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 2: William's foster mother wanted to have fewer contact visits and 324 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 2: William's birth mother wanted more. The foster parents wanted to 325 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:16,400 Speaker 2: formally adopt William, but they feared his birth mother would 326 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:20,920 Speaker 2: fight that in court. One thing that does strike me 327 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,160 Speaker 2: about this case is a lot of it comes down 328 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 2: to judgments on motherhood. Do you. 329 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 7: Well, you mentioned the birthday party. Yeah, I was looking 330 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 7: at a photo from that birthday party on social media. 331 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 7: There's so one person says, the candles aren't even lit. 332 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 7: How is this really a birthday party? The candles aren't 333 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:47,159 Speaker 7: even lit. Then someone else comes in and goes, this 334 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 7: is incredibly dangerous because William is sitting at the corner 335 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 7: of the table and it's pointed right at his neck. 336 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 7: Any slip from any person could knock him onto the table. 337 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 7: And it's just there's like twenty thirty comments of people 338 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 7: picking apart this photo, literally a photo of a little 339 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 7: boy smiling in front of a birthday cake. 340 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 2: So making judgments on the foster mother's parenting. Yeah, you 341 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 2: do see that. The trolls online compare the two mothers. 342 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 2: So I've seen posts describing Krly as William's natural mother 343 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:24,119 Speaker 2: and saying that her family needs reunification, saying William belongs 344 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,719 Speaker 2: to his natural mother and the thoughts of foster parents 345 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 2: are irrelevant. And I've seen another where that says William's 346 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 2: mummy pleads don't hurt him. While the fosters still hide 347 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 2: their faces. But you can't help but compare the two 348 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 2: sets of parents, and you can't help but compare the 349 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,360 Speaker 2: life William had with his foster parents to the life 350 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 2: he had before. So William's foster parents take him and 351 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 2: his sister on expensive holidays months apart, to the Gold Coast, 352 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 2: to Cairn's, to Barley. When his birth mum is told 353 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 2: about the Barley trip, she says they went again lucky then, 354 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 2: and there were other trips, including to Kendall on the 355 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 2: mid North coast of New South Wales. William's foster mother's 356 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 2: parents lived there. 357 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 3: It was not really a long weekend like a Friday 358 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 3: Settle a Sunday or a Saturlly Sunday Monday or something 359 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 3: like that. Might be once every three or four months, 360 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 3: especially Nana's birthday, or it might be the bit Debbie 361 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:29,679 Speaker 3: an occasion but also a good time. 362 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 4: To catch up. 363 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,679 Speaker 2: Kendall's about a four or five hour drive north from Sydney, 364 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,160 Speaker 2: which is not an easy thing to do with young children. 365 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 3: The trip included, you know, at the halfway point, stopping 366 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 3: at their favorite little snack that they'd get, you know, 367 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,120 Speaker 3: which would be McDonald's I mean, that's really the only 368 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 3: time that they would actually get it well. On the 369 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 3: way up and on the way back. I think it 370 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 3: was because that's the halfway point they get their happy 371 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 3: meal type thing, and they got but they're still excited 372 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 3: about the overall journey, which was to Banna's, so that 373 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 3: was that was what they were looking for. 374 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 2: To Williams foster nana lived in a big house at 375 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 2: the top of a wide, dead end road called Benerine Drive. 376 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 11: That location it's quiet. The only people who go up 377 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 11: that road typically the people who live there. 378 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 4: It's a colder cirque at Mum and Dad's place. They 379 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:24,159 Speaker 4: knew it. 380 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 9: He knew it is incredibly comfortable there. So you have 381 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,120 Speaker 9: to assume that children are. 382 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 11: Safe in their own backyards and in their own homes, 383 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 11: and they've been up there. 384 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:40,360 Speaker 4: More than enough. 385 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 2: But the lead up to that last visit was unsettled. 386 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 2: William's foster grandfather had recently died, his foster nana was 387 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,640 Speaker 2: about to sell the house, and there are emails from 388 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 2: the time between William's foster mother and his caseworker talking 389 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 2: again about those contact visits the biological parents, and on 390 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 2: the ninth of September Williams. Foster mum sends his caseworker 391 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 2: an email saying I am close to giving up or in, 392 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 2: and that phrase close to giving up or in would 393 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 2: get repeated over and over in the years since, both 394 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 2: online and in the newspapers. One newspaper said the phrase 395 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 2: appears to explain at least some of the dramatic developments 396 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 2: in the police investigation that followed, and it's used to 397 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,160 Speaker 2: almost imply that there's something darker about the foster mum, 398 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 2: and it does contrast with what the foster mum later 399 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 2: told police. Have a look at this. So this is 400 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 2: a copy of the foster mum's interview with police, or 401 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 2: one of her interviews with police. 402 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,639 Speaker 7: Yeah, so this is a place report from twenty sixteen, 403 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 7: twenty sixteen, So this is not the initial statement that. 404 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 2: She left to place a couple of years later. 405 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 7: Okay, So it says, and this is the thing that 406 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 7: kills me about this is that he and I were 407 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 7: just reaching that absolute, one hundred percent open true mum's 408 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 7: son relationship and he was just beautiful. 409 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 2: Which does seem to directly contrast this idea that she's 410 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 2: close to giving up or giving in. But when you 411 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:35,920 Speaker 2: actually read the full email chain. I think it's been misreported. 412 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,880 Speaker 2: I don't think in the context of that email chain 413 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,399 Speaker 2: that the foster mum is talking about giving up or 414 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 2: giving in about William's behavior. The sentence is I'm close 415 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 2: to giving up or in. I don't have the energy 416 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 2: to argue against this. 417 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 7: That's a good point. 418 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,639 Speaker 2: I think giving up or giving in is about the 419 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 2: back and forth on the number of contact visits with 420 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 2: the biological parents. The email chain shows that they're not 421 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 2: going to reduce the number of visits like the foster 422 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 2: mum has asked, and the foster mum is reacting against 423 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 2: this back and forth, but she's close to giving in. 424 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,440 Speaker 2: She's not giving up or giving in about being a 425 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 2: foster mum or about dealing with William's behavior, which is 426 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,680 Speaker 2: how it's been presented in the years that have followed. 427 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:30,639 Speaker 7: Is that one interpretation should I read the whole sentence. 428 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 7: So she's replying to an email I haven't censored my 429 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,199 Speaker 7: initial thoughts because they are still there. But I am 430 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 7: close to giving up or in. I don't have the 431 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 7: energy to argue against this, And this is what you're saying, 432 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 7: arguing against the visits. I'm feeling pretty ragged. At the moment, 433 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 7: William has not settled one bit and is still over 434 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 7: the emotional but managing it better with help. It's possible. 435 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 7: I get your interpretation of it. I still think reading 436 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 7: through the whole chain, that she was a woman who 437 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 7: was struggling. 438 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 2: Yeah. In that same email, the foster mums says the 439 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,719 Speaker 2: family are going up to her mum's house in Kendall 440 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 2: that weekend. So the plan is to go up on 441 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 2: the Friday, which is the twelfth of September twenty fourteen, 442 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,119 Speaker 2: but the day before, so Thursday, the eleventh of September, 443 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 2: they make a snap decision to go up a day early, 444 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 2: so they book their cats in for boarding at short notice, 445 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 2: and they drive up, stopping at McDonald's and they recorded 446 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 2: ordering at the counter on CCTV. So all of that 447 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:41,439 Speaker 2: has been confirmed by police, and the foster mother's phone 448 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 2: records from that day have been published online, so you 449 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 2: can see that apart from William's caseworker and Williams foster 450 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 2: nana who she calls, and maybe the staff at McDonald's 451 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 2: and maybe the people looking after their cats because they 452 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,880 Speaker 2: go up early, no one knows that William is going 453 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 2: to be in Kendall the next morning, so they got 454 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,199 Speaker 2: there late in the evening of the eleventh, about eight 455 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 2: thirty or nine o'clock. The kids went to bed. William 456 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 2: is sharing a room with his foster dad, and William's 457 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 2: sister is sharing with their mum, and the grown ups 458 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 2: sat at talking. The foster dad was tired, he went 459 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,640 Speaker 2: to bed next. William was not scared of the dark, 460 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:31,640 Speaker 2: and at home he slept with the door shut. William 461 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 2: was the first to wake up on the twelfth of September, 462 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,719 Speaker 2: according to his foster parents. In one of their conversations 463 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 2: with Leah Harris, William's foster father said they watched TV together. 464 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 3: William and I were in one room, but William wanted 465 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 3: to watch I think it was Bananas and Pajamas or 466 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 3: something like that off Fim and Sam and so we're 467 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 3: watching there in the morning. And so that was it 468 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 3: was good fun because he was giggling and laughing and 469 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 3: enjoying himself. 470 00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 6: And that was the sound that you worked to that morning. 471 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 6: He is a laugh The laughter was infectious. Yeah, people 472 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 6: would hear that, and Nat, you couldn't help but smile. 473 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 2: William's foster mother told police that she got him dressed 474 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 2: that morning. 475 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 13: I remember the discussion I had with William about putting 476 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 13: on his Spider Man clothes because I wanted him to 477 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 13: wear a singlet. 478 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 8: He didn't want to wear a singlet. 479 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 11: So the compromise was he'd wear a. 480 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 13: Spider Man T shirt underneath his Spider Man clothes, so 481 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 13: he was Spider maned out completely. 482 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 4: All these little things that I just remember. 483 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 13: It was just a normal family doing normal. 484 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 2: Family things, except one thing wasn't normal. In another of 485 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 2: their conversations with the journalist Leah Harris, William's foster mother 486 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 2: described seeing two cars parked on the dead and Road 487 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 2: opposite her mum's house. 488 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 5: When we woke up, I always open up the sliding 489 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 5: door that's on the veranda looking out back down and 490 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 5: drive from Thumb's case. 491 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 9: And as I. 492 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 5: Opened it, I walked out because there's normally cook a 493 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 5: barrow that comes up on to the balcony of the verandah, 494 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 5: and was sort of just say hello to the cook borough. 495 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 5: But I'm looking out over the verandah. 496 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 14: And I see two cars. 497 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 5: And I see these two cars just sitting there in 498 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 5: the road, and my first thought was, oh, that's odd. 499 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 5: I looked at these cars, thinking why would two cars 500 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 5: be parked on Benner Room Drive? And I looked again, 501 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 5: and both these cars had their driver's side windows down, 502 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 5: and I just looked again, and I thought, oh, that's 503 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 5: weird because they were parked in the middle of two driveways, 504 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 5: you know, and I had direct view of them, they 505 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 5: would have had direct view of me, and I just 506 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 5: I thought it's odd and went back inside and didn't 507 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:57,440 Speaker 5: think another thing of it. 508 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 2: It's odd because you don't a lot of cars parked 509 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 2: on Beneerin Drive. There's few houses there, and each of 510 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 2: them has got a long drive with space for a 511 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 2: few cars. So you don't park on the road if 512 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 2: you live there or if you're visiting, and you don't 513 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 2: go there unless you do live there, or you've got 514 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 2: a good reason to do so. And something else is 515 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 2: odd too. William's foster mother told Leah Harris she forgot 516 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 2: about seeing the two cars, then remembered seeing them the 517 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 2: same night. 518 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 5: I realized that night that William me seeing that I 519 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 5: had actually seen two cars, but she. 520 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 2: Told police she didn't remember this until a few days later. 521 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 7: I remember reporting the other cars to the guys in 522 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 7: the place rescue van that was parked here when we 523 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 7: picked up my sister from the airport. Was on the 524 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 7: way home from the airport. I'm driving the car and 525 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 7: I just went there were cars there, and my sister goes, 526 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 7: what cars. I've gone, Oh my god. So that's when 527 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 7: I've talked about the two cars. 528 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 2: So maybe that's a mistake. One time she says she 529 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 2: remembered seeing the cars that night, and another time she 530 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 2: says she remembered seeing the cars a few days later, 531 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 2: but there are other confusions. On one occasion, William's foster 532 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 2: mother seems to say one of the cars was on 533 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 2: the road the morning she reported William missing when the 534 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 2: first police officer arrived, his name was Chris Rowley. 535 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 5: Because when Chris Rowley came up, he was a responding 536 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 5: policeman from when I called for below, I actually walked 537 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 5: across where that white station wagon was because I met 538 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 5: him on the road, and as Chris Rowley's coming up 539 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 5: in a room drive, I'm on the left hand side 540 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 5: standing near with that white car. That white station wagon was, 541 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 5: I've walked past it. 542 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 2: So it's not obvious there. If William's foster mother is 543 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 2: saying she walked past the whites station wagon when Chris 544 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 2: Rowley arrived, or if she's saying she walked past where 545 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 2: the station wagon had been. But in her interview with police, 546 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 2: she seems more certain. She says the cars weren't there 547 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 2: when Chris Rowley arrived. 548 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 7: I'm not making this up. Those cars were there, and 549 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,959 Speaker 7: they were outside that house, and when Chris Rowley came up, 550 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 7: those cars weren't there. 551 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 2: So listening to the different interviews, you might not be 552 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 2: sure if William's foster mother is consistent on whether the 553 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 2: station wagon was there or it wasn't. 554 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 7: I mean, I found that the description of the cars. 555 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 7: I definitely noticed this as well, that she's been a 556 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 7: bit inconsistent about the timings of the cars. It seems 557 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 7: to me that the police that the police haven't been 558 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 7: able to verify at any point over the years that 559 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 7: the cars were there, right. 560 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 12: Yeah. 561 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 2: In his witness statement, Chris Rowney, the police officer, doesn't 562 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 2: mention the cars being there, and the police have asked 563 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 2: neighbors and nobody says they saw them. So why might 564 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 2: the cars be important? 565 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:21,759 Speaker 7: Well, the cars are important if we're looking at the 566 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 7: theory that William was abducted, right, So, if we're looking 567 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 7: at the aduction theory, which is already statistically the least 568 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 7: likely thing yeah to have happened. Those cars being there 569 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:37,799 Speaker 7: and the time that they were there is really really 570 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 7: important to nail down. If the cars in fact weren't there, 571 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 7: and they can verify that they weren't there, then that 572 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 7: makes a case in a completely different direction. So that's 573 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:50,360 Speaker 7: just as important. 574 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,879 Speaker 2: And in different interviews, it's William's foster mum who keeps 575 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,800 Speaker 2: coming back to the importance of her seeing those cars. 576 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:04,239 Speaker 5: So either they're involved or they've seen what happened, and 577 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,840 Speaker 5: we just need them to come forward to say this. 578 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:08,799 Speaker 14: Is what we thought. 579 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,920 Speaker 4: So from your memory, were they gone when you realize 580 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,280 Speaker 4: that William had gone missing? Were they not there anymore? 581 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 5: I realized that they weren't there that night when I 582 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,240 Speaker 5: remembered walking across the road to see Chris Rowley. 583 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 2: So there William's foster mother is again talking about remembering 584 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 2: seeing those cars that night. And to make it all 585 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 2: more confusing, there was a witness who was interviewed by 586 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 2: police only years later who described seeing a white Holden 587 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,439 Speaker 2: driving near where William was reported missing on the day 588 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:50,240 Speaker 2: he disappeared. Only that witness described seeing a holden sedan, 589 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:56,360 Speaker 2: not a station wagon, which William's foster mother described, and 590 00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:01,239 Speaker 2: any inconsistency in someone's evidence, it can attracts suspicion. 591 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 9: They took our laptops. 592 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:04,680 Speaker 2: We're grilled. 593 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,840 Speaker 3: We were completely grilled, separately in isolations in back of 594 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,319 Speaker 3: detectives vehicles. Every time they took my vehicle away, they 595 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 3: completely searched to check it, you know, I mean they did. 596 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:16,240 Speaker 12: They did everything. 597 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,360 Speaker 11: And we had multiple conversations with multiple police people, and 598 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:25,400 Speaker 11: you know, detectives and all sorts of other police always 599 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 11: just checking in, just looking at you know, corroborating things, 600 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:32,439 Speaker 11: checking with us, all sorts of things. 601 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 9: And I remember saying to you that we. 602 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,000 Speaker 16: Would have had to have been their prime suspects because 603 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 16: we were the last people to see him, and if 604 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 16: they didn't completely investigate us, I would be absolutely. 605 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,920 Speaker 6: Gobsmacked, because you've got. 606 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:52,759 Speaker 4: To rule us out. 607 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,880 Speaker 2: I remember at the time, I was newspaper reporter speaking 608 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:06,400 Speaker 2: to a senior detective days after William disappeared, and he 609 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:11,320 Speaker 2: told me, we've ruled out both sets of parents. And 610 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 2: then the years passed and the Department of Family and 611 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 2: Community Services, so the state government body that manages foster 612 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 2: care continued to give William's foster parents other children to 613 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,879 Speaker 2: look after, and that feels like a judgment on them 614 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:32,279 Speaker 2: as parents as well, saying these guys are safe, we 615 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 2: can give them other children to look after. William's foster 616 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 2: parents kept calling for more public attention on William's disappearance for. 617 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 10: Some wonderful kids. 618 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:44,759 Speaker 17: Ladies and gentlemen, would like to introduce you to the 619 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,719 Speaker 17: Kendall Public School choir who were going to sing bring 620 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 17: Him Home, The official Where's William campaign theme song was 621 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 17: chosen by William's mummy and dad either we'd be riand. 622 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 14: Of appoint. 623 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,759 Speaker 18: We're coming up to a very important week, Where's William Week? 624 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:04,759 Speaker 18: The search for Little William checking. 625 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 17: Up to one thousand people to pack into the Kendall 626 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:08,760 Speaker 17: Showgrounds and so if they're important not only to William 627 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:09,600 Speaker 17: Tyrell's family, but. 628 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 18: What he's called a walk for William Now, these will 629 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:18,240 Speaker 18: be held across New South Wales as well as flowers. 630 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,200 Speaker 18: They're asking for everyone to get involved, get on board. 631 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:23,320 Speaker 18: If you know something, please say something. 632 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,280 Speaker 9: We can't let people forget William. 633 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 4: We can't. 634 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:36,359 Speaker 11: It's a three year old boy that was abducted. How 635 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:41,120 Speaker 11: can we public police say that's okay and let it go. 636 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:48,000 Speaker 2: They also called for more police attention on William's disappearance, 637 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,600 Speaker 2: including in this interview with Leah Harris. 638 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,879 Speaker 4: Will you ever give up fighting for him? Never? 639 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 3: Never till my last breath? 640 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 4: Absolutely? Absolutely. 641 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 9: If police think they've seen the last. 642 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:07,280 Speaker 4: Of us, big mistake, you won't be going quietly. 643 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 9: We will not give up on William, and we will 644 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,120 Speaker 9: not let other people give up on you. He's too 645 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,840 Speaker 9: important to give up on. Never going to happen. 646 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:23,840 Speaker 2: Ever, William's foster parents have declined to be interviewed for 647 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 2: this series on advice from their lawyers. I have met them. 648 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:34,480 Speaker 2: We meet in safe houses at different hotels, and when 649 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:38,440 Speaker 2: we meet we turn off our phones, which might sound paranoid, 650 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,920 Speaker 2: but they have reason to be paranoid. Williams foster parents 651 00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 2: know in recent years that the police have been intercepting 652 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,440 Speaker 2: their calls. They know they've had listening devices in their 653 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 2: homes and surveillance cameras outside it, and we'll get into 654 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,520 Speaker 2: all of that later in this series. William's foster mother 655 00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 2: has given us a written statement, and it's the first 656 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:05,880 Speaker 2: time she said anything in public about William's disappearance in 657 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,440 Speaker 2: the years since she was publicly identified in the media 658 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:13,880 Speaker 2: and by the police as a suspect. These are her words. 659 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:18,640 Speaker 2: Just over ten years ago, my little boy, William Tyrrell, 660 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 2: disappeared from my mother's yard at her house at Kendall. 661 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:27,120 Speaker 2: I believe that William was taken. I have no idea 662 00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,440 Speaker 2: who took William or what happened to him. If he 663 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,440 Speaker 2: is in fact dead, I have no idea where his 664 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:37,279 Speaker 2: little body is. I have no knowledge of or involvement 665 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:42,000 Speaker 2: in his disappearance. Even though William was not my child 666 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:45,239 Speaker 2: by birth, I loved William as much as any mother 667 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,400 Speaker 2: could love her child. I loved him as if he 668 00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:52,120 Speaker 2: was my child by birth, if not more. It did 669 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:55,160 Speaker 2: not matter one bits that he was not connected to 670 00:40:55,320 --> 00:41:00,800 Speaker 2: us biologically. William made my life complete. I loved him fiercely. 671 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:05,720 Speaker 2: I just loved being his mummy. My life with William 672 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 2: was happy, fun and an adventure. Every day was different. 673 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:13,239 Speaker 2: Never ever, for a moment did I regret becoming a 674 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:17,320 Speaker 2: foster mother. We were a family, not the traditional version 675 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 2: of a family. It didn't matter. We were and still 676 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:25,360 Speaker 2: are a family, and we connected as one. For the 677 00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,719 Speaker 2: past five years, the police have done nothing to try 678 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:33,560 Speaker 2: to discover who took William and what has happened to him. Instead, 679 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,920 Speaker 2: they have concentrated all their efforts on trying to build 680 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,360 Speaker 2: a case that I was in some way to blame 681 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,960 Speaker 2: for his death and the disposal of his precious little body. 682 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,320 Speaker 2: They have gone to great lengths to blacken my character 683 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,239 Speaker 2: in the media. I believe that if the police had 684 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:54,080 Speaker 2: properly investigated this case instead of persecuting me, they may 685 00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:59,359 Speaker 2: well have found the person responsible for William's disappearance. It's 686 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,880 Speaker 2: challenging to have hope and build plans for the future 687 00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:07,080 Speaker 2: when our hearts remain shattered and in pieces. All I 688 00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:10,440 Speaker 2: can hope for is that some person who knows something 689 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:19,000 Speaker 2: comes forward. Working on this podcast, I drove up to 690 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:22,240 Speaker 2: the house of Vett Elliot, the old friend of William's 691 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,200 Speaker 2: foster parents, who told me about the Lane Cove Ladies. 692 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,160 Speaker 2: We talked about how for years after William went missing, 693 00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 2: different police seemed to agree the foster parents had nothing 694 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:37,959 Speaker 2: to do with his disappearance, but something must have made 695 00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:42,440 Speaker 2: them suspicious, because Ivette told me how detectives turned up 696 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:46,480 Speaker 2: at her house asking questions in October twenty twenty one. 697 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:51,440 Speaker 1: It was incredibly targeted. It was very very targeted, and 698 00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:55,360 Speaker 1: they were trying to find something, and I, you know, 699 00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:56,480 Speaker 1: I had nothing to give them. 700 00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:59,400 Speaker 2: They told you they had a suspect, they didn't tell 701 00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:00,720 Speaker 2: you who it was at that stage. 702 00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:11,000 Speaker 1: No, they didn't necessarily categorically mention William's mum. But when 703 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,799 Speaker 1: you look back at the pointed questions and how much 704 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:19,840 Speaker 1: time was spent on her personality, on her relationships, on 705 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:23,360 Speaker 1: who she was as a person, then you know. 706 00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:25,879 Speaker 4: It was very much. 707 00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:28,840 Speaker 1: I became very much aware of who they were focused on. 708 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:33,640 Speaker 2: Looking back now at that interview with the police and 709 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:38,680 Speaker 2: everything that's happened before after William went missing, what's your 710 00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:42,960 Speaker 2: perspective of the police now and has that changed? 711 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:48,440 Speaker 7: Before? 712 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:54,000 Speaker 1: I had the absolute respect for police, and when I 713 00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:56,239 Speaker 1: was eighteen, I wanted to join the police, so I 714 00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:02,479 Speaker 1: absolutely held the police in the highest regard. I don't 715 00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:07,520 Speaker 1: feel that way anymore. I'm nervous for William's mum and 716 00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:13,400 Speaker 1: dad because it feels like a very targeted campaign and 717 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,160 Speaker 1: now their attention has only turned to one person, and 718 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:17,200 Speaker 1: that terrifies me. 719 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,760 Speaker 2: After leaving events, I also spoke to two other friends 720 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:27,640 Speaker 2: of William's foster parents. They both described how the police 721 00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:29,000 Speaker 2: came asking questions. 722 00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:33,600 Speaker 8: I found the questioning quite. I didn't understand why they 723 00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:36,479 Speaker 8: wanted to know about her past boyfriends, and like, what's 724 00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:40,280 Speaker 8: the relevance asking me things like what sort of family 725 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:44,040 Speaker 8: were they? And I just said, they're just a normal family. 726 00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,000 Speaker 8: Well do they sit down and have dinner together? And 727 00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:50,279 Speaker 8: I'm like, yeah, I don't know. They just felt like 728 00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:53,520 Speaker 8: they were trying. It felt like they knew what they 729 00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:56,480 Speaker 8: wanted to know and they were trying to find evidence 730 00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:01,359 Speaker 8: to support that. And I was like, wrong person, I'm 731 00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:02,480 Speaker 8: the wrong person. 732 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:04,960 Speaker 2: Why were you the wrong person? 733 00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,920 Speaker 8: Well, because I don't believe they had anything to do 734 00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:12,879 Speaker 8: with William's disappearance. So, and I've known his foster mother 735 00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:16,919 Speaker 8: since nineteen ninety six, right, and I know her well. 736 00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,960 Speaker 8: I've been on holidays with her, I've been her bridesmaid, Like, 737 00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:22,479 Speaker 8: I know her well. 738 00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:27,439 Speaker 2: There's also something else, another reason I wanted to talk 739 00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:31,440 Speaker 2: to this woman in particular. That's because her name came 740 00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:35,120 Speaker 2: up in court last year. One of the detectives investigating 741 00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:39,440 Speaker 2: William's disappearance, Sean Ogilvie, was giving evidence about all the 742 00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:45,440 Speaker 2: evidence they've gathered, including quote, a substantial number of witness statements, 743 00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:50,200 Speaker 2: Sean Oglevie said four people had declined to give a 744 00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:54,799 Speaker 2: witness statement, and he named them. This woman is one 745 00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:59,520 Speaker 2: of those four people, and you're one of those four names. 746 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:01,680 Speaker 2: What did you think when you heard that? 747 00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:02,640 Speaker 8: Huh? 748 00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:03,759 Speaker 11: I was. 749 00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:09,120 Speaker 8: Just super angry, super angry that my friends had to 750 00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,800 Speaker 8: sit in a court room and hear that I refused 751 00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:15,560 Speaker 8: to support them because I was never asked. I did 752 00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:19,200 Speaker 8: not decline. I was never asked. I was never even 753 00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:22,600 Speaker 8: asked to provide a statement or that reference or whatever 754 00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:26,080 Speaker 8: it was. I have provided other references in the past. 755 00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:29,320 Speaker 8: I've recently been asked to provide one for my friend's lawyer. 756 00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,880 Speaker 8: I did it that day. I was never ever asked 757 00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:35,120 Speaker 8: to provide that, and it made me very angry that 758 00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:37,759 Speaker 8: my name was read out and that they had to 759 00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:39,120 Speaker 8: sit there and listen to that. 760 00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:42,800 Speaker 2: If you had been asked to give a statement, what 761 00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:43,759 Speaker 2: would you have said? 762 00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:47,920 Speaker 8: Well, I don't know. I don't know anything about what 763 00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:51,000 Speaker 8: they were asking. I don't know what they were asking 764 00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:53,120 Speaker 8: for because I was never asked. 765 00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:56,680 Speaker 2: If they were asking you, if you'd ever seen any 766 00:46:56,719 --> 00:47:01,040 Speaker 2: evidence that William's foster mum or foster dad could intimidate 767 00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:03,160 Speaker 2: a child, what would you have. 768 00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:06,840 Speaker 8: Said, Yeah, I've seen the dad be a bit cranky, 769 00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:11,080 Speaker 8: but nothing outside the ordinary bounds of parenting. Parenting kids 770 00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:14,759 Speaker 8: is hard, Not everyone's an angel. You lose your temper sometimes, 771 00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:17,600 Speaker 8: but that's what I would have said, not physical though. 772 00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:20,200 Speaker 2: Do you think they were good parents? 773 00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:24,040 Speaker 8: I do, I really do. They really made a family 774 00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:27,520 Speaker 8: for those children. They really They got into bike riding 775 00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:29,880 Speaker 8: and you know the back room at their house before 776 00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:32,560 Speaker 8: they renovated, the whole back room was just for the 777 00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:36,400 Speaker 8: kids play area with childboards, bags of toys, and there 778 00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:41,040 Speaker 8: was always laughter in that house. They were a fun family. 779 00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:43,880 Speaker 2: And that's what you would have told the police if 780 00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:51,400 Speaker 2: you had given that statement. Yeah, So did the police 781 00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:56,040 Speaker 2: get confused? Were they mistaken to say this woman declined 782 00:47:56,120 --> 00:48:00,719 Speaker 2: to give a witness statement? Why are the police targeting 783 00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:05,640 Speaker 2: Williams foster parents? And who's in charge of their investigation? 784 00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:16,520 Speaker 2: That's next time on Witness. If you know anything about 785 00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:20,920 Speaker 2: William's disappearance, please contact Crimestoppers. There's a number in the 786 00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:23,680 Speaker 2: show notes for this series, but if there's anything you 787 00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:27,240 Speaker 2: want to tell us, you can email Witness at News 788 00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,640 Speaker 2: dot com dot au or I'm on social media and 789 00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:35,040 Speaker 2: it can be completely confidential. A lot of different people 790 00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:38,120 Speaker 2: have been involved in making this series. Among them, the 791 00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,719 Speaker 2: executive producer is Nina Young. The sound design was by 792 00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:46,920 Speaker 2: Tiffany Dimack. The producers have been Emily Pigeon, Nicholas Adams, Jazzbar, 793 00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:51,160 Speaker 2: Phoebe Zakowski, Wallace and Tabby Wilson. Voice acting on this 794 00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:56,160 Speaker 2: episode by Bridget Bush, Research by Adan Patrick, original music 795 00:48:56,280 --> 00:49:00,480 Speaker 2: by Rory O'Connor. Our lawyer is Stephen Coombs. The editor 796 00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:03,040 Speaker 2: at news dot com dot a U is Kerry Warren. 797 00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:04,680 Speaker 2: I'm Dan Vox