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Speaker 1: I get a team. Welcome to another installment of the

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Speaker 1: year project. It's Harps. Who else would it be. We

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Speaker 1: hope you're having a good day wherever you are, whatever

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Speaker 1: you're doing. Professor Shelley Richards. I stumbled across on LinkedIn,

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Speaker 1: which I never normally do. I'm not the person who

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Speaker 1: gets guests. I have a team that gets guests. But

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Speaker 1: I was looking at Shelley's profile and reading what she does,

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Speaker 1: and she's written a book called The November Molecule and

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Speaker 1: a few other things, and I went and also she

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Speaker 1: teaches writing. I'm a writer, not a very good one.

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Speaker 1: But I thought, how can I get a free coaching session?

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Speaker 1: And I thought I could do that under the guise

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Speaker 1: of a podcast. Hi, Shelley, how are you?

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Speaker 2: I'm great? How are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm very good. Hey, congratulations on your podcast debut. This

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Speaker 1: is number one for you. Well, thanks for letting me

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Speaker 1: walk you through the podcast door for the first time.

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Speaker 1: Did you tell anybody that you would doing a podcast

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Speaker 1: and did you get any advice from anyone?

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Speaker 2: I did so. I told a colleague of mine who's

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Speaker 2: I've done a couple of podcasts, one where she kind

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Speaker 2: of went in blind and didn't know any of the

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Speaker 2: questions ahead of time, and another where she kind of

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Speaker 2: had a list of what to expect in terms of questions,

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Speaker 2: and she said it didn't go how she expected it

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Speaker 2: what at all. In fact, the one where she went

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Speaker 2: in blind, she said, was great, and the one where

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Speaker 2: she actually knew what the questions were going to be

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Speaker 2: was sort of a not so great experience.

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Speaker 1: It's really interesting, you know. I mean, I do this

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Speaker 1: every day, right, so I'm and I think you and

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Speaker 1: I had a brief chat the other day. And by

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Speaker 1: the way, if I talk too fast in my weird

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Speaker 1: Australian accent, just tell me and I'll slide down. But

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Speaker 1: you and I had a conversation the other day and

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Speaker 1: I said that, you know, we're six years in. We're

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Speaker 1: an everyday show. And so I mean with my guests

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Speaker 1: like you, I want to know a little bit about you,

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Speaker 1: but not too much because I want to learn along

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Speaker 1: with our listeners. I want to learn as we go.

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Speaker 1: And I probably once or twice a week I'm also

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Speaker 1: on someone else's podcast and they often want to send

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Speaker 1: me the questions and I go, don't send me the questions.

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Speaker 1: They're like, oh, that's that's how it works. I'm like, well,

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Speaker 1: I won't look at the questions, so you know, if

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Speaker 1: you're going to talk to me about whatever it is

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Speaker 1: I do. I don't need to prepare, like I don't

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Speaker 1: need to know what's coming, you know. And all of

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Speaker 1: my feedback from my listeners is that, or not all

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Speaker 1: of it. A lot of the feedback is that it's

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Speaker 1: conversational and it's organic, and that's what they like. It's

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Speaker 1: not this to and fro, prescripted, choreographed. Here's my question,

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Speaker 1: here's shell his answer. Here's question two, here's answer to

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Speaker 1: here's you know, I don't think it makes for great

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Speaker 1: listening and probably not great storytelling either, right, you know.

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Speaker 2: I think you're right. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Do you do you think that we've had a couple

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Speaker 1: of people that I can't I won't mention, but we've

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Speaker 1: had a couple of authors on who write brilliantly, but

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Speaker 1: they don't necessarily and I'm not saying this for your

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Speaker 1: benefit because I know you'll be good. I've spoken to you,

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Speaker 1: but something like that.

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Speaker 3: They're very great, they're they're very good at writing, very effective,

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Speaker 3: very engaging writers, but sometimes not great communicators, like verbally,

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Speaker 3: like in a conversation.

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Speaker 1: Have you noticed that there's there's absolete? Yeah, what is

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Speaker 1: that about?

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, when I was growing up, my dad

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Speaker 2: was a writer. My grandparents on on that side were writers,

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Speaker 2: and my dad whenever he had something to say to me,

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Speaker 2: would write a letter. And he said that allowed him

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Speaker 2: to say what he wanted to say, how he wanted

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Speaker 2: to say it, uninterrupted. And so I think that's what

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Speaker 2: most writers are after they want to say. You know,

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Speaker 2: language is a very important thing, and word choice is

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Speaker 2: a really important thing. And so when you're talking, I

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Speaker 2: think all writers go back in time and I wish

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Speaker 2: I would have used this word or phrased it this way.

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Speaker 2: And when you're writing, you have the opportunity to revise,

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Speaker 2: and when you're you know, talking, you don't get that

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Speaker 2: that chance.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no editing, there's no post conversation edit, right, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I think also when you want to especially if

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Speaker 1: you want to have a meaningful interaction with somebody, I mean,

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Speaker 1: like I really I want to talk about something that's

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Speaker 1: very important to me, I guess sitting down and writing

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Speaker 1: it or typing it, whatever the case is, gives you

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Speaker 1: the opportunity to think through deeply and meaningfully, rather than

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Speaker 1: just being in the moment interaction where you or the

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Speaker 1: other where somebody might get emotional and the conversation gets derailed.

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Speaker 2: You know, right, yes, absolutely so?

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Speaker 1: Is it? Is it possible for us even as we are,

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Speaker 1: you know, adults that have been thinking and you know,

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Speaker 1: writing and communicating for a long time, can we become

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Speaker 1: can we become not only can we become better writers?

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Speaker 1: But like you, like you, you're a professor of writing,

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Speaker 1: you teach writing, but also you you know, you've opened

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Speaker 1: the creative door and you've written some some fiction. Right,

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Speaker 1: Is it possible to tap into our creativity later in

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Speaker 1: life and discover that maybe we could write something creative,

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Speaker 1: something fiction based.

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Speaker 2: I absolutely think that. I think one of the greatest

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Speaker 2: things about writing is that it is what makes great

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Speaker 2: writing great is timeless. And that's true for fiction or nonfiction.

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Speaker 2: And so all of the things that you read in

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Speaker 2: a book, like the Elements of Style, for example, you know,

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Speaker 2: was true in nineteen eighteen. Still those same principles are

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Speaker 2: true today. And so when people have those principles in

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Speaker 2: mind and they write enough, whether it's fiction or nonfiction,

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Speaker 2: I think after a while, you develop a certain set

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Speaker 2: of skills, and after a while that set of skills

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Speaker 2: becomes more instinct and intuition, and you know intuitively whether

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Speaker 2: or not a paragraph is great, or an opening to

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Speaker 2: a story is great. And I think people that read

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Speaker 2: and if you want to write fiction, I would say,

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Speaker 2: read fiction. If you want to rate, you want to

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Speaker 2: write great nonfiction, then read great nonfiction. Is really the

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Speaker 2: key because some people are just really great masters in

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Speaker 2: the art of imitation, which a lot of great writing is.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of retelling, a lot of fan fiction

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Speaker 2: out there.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, it's in the I started my PhD in

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen November, so and hopefully in the next six

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Speaker 1: months or so I hand my thesis in. But I

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Speaker 1: you know, I discovered that especially at that level. You know,

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Speaker 1: undergrad is relatively easy, right, but but academic writing at

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Speaker 1: that level is so so the opposite of creative writing.

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Speaker 1: It's so bland Shelley, it's so boring, it's so uninspiring, Shelley.

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Speaker 1: For God's sake.

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Speaker 2: That is absolutely true. It is dry as the desert

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Speaker 2: it is. It gives me cut mouth to read it.

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Speaker 2: And I tell my students, you know, you can rate,

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Speaker 2: you can write great science using metaphor and analogy or

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Speaker 2: you know, plugging out something unusual or unique about whatever

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Speaker 2: it is that you're writing about and incorporate that in

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Speaker 2: your science writing. Because if it's not interesting, people aren't

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Speaker 2: going to read it, even even people in your same

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Speaker 2: field won't be interested in it if it's not engaging.

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Speaker 2: And some people are just really great at writing you know,

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Speaker 2: good science that's that's not dry. And some of that

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Speaker 2: is journal editors who are very old school who don't

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Speaker 2: like it when people sort of like you know, muck

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Speaker 2: around with the status quo and use metaphor and things

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Speaker 2: like that, that sort of really beef up the engagement.

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Speaker 2: I think it's.

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Speaker 1: Such a pity because like when I come into and

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Speaker 1: where I'm doing it is place. It's a university in Australia.

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Speaker 1: There's a bunch of them called Monash University. And my

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Speaker 1: lab is called the called Brain Park, which is the

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Speaker 1: neuroscience and neuropsychology component, right, and it's great, and they're great,

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Speaker 1: and I'm very you know, it's like I'm like an outlier.

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Speaker 1: I'm like a pro academic in an academic world, right,

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Speaker 1: so I'm not the perfect you know, and because I

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Speaker 1: come from. I've owned my own businesses. I've employed over

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Speaker 1: five hundred people. I run companies, I do staff. I'm

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Speaker 1: a corporate speaker. I'm very much an experiential boots on

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Speaker 1: the ground, you know, get your hands dirty. That's me.

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Speaker 1: And then you step into the world of academia, especially

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Speaker 1: when you're doing a science PhD. As you know, it's

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Speaker 1: like it is, it's a lot. For me, it was

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Speaker 1: like learning a whole new language, I mean, and the writing,

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Speaker 1: and the writing where you've got to go oh, and

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Speaker 1: obviously because it's got to be perfect, like there can't

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Speaker 1: be any you know, there's no opinions, there's no there's

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Speaker 1: no metaphors, there's no like, there's no storytelling, I mean

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Speaker 1: kind of. But yeah, that was for me, not even

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Speaker 1: understanding the research or running the studies or interpreting the data,

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Speaker 1: but actually writing it now and then out of that

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Speaker 1: where I would go and talk to a corporate audience

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Speaker 1: and I want to talk to them about my research

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Speaker 1: because it's very relevant to you know, it's about around

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Speaker 1: it metacognition, which is thinking about thinking, and metaperception, which

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Speaker 1: is understanding how other people see you. So it's all

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Speaker 1: very relevant in a communication based you know, reality, where

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Speaker 1: we've got to have conversations, resolve conflict, flex sought out problems,

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Speaker 1: you know, work as a team. But trying to turn

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Speaker 1: my research into a presentation and a story and a

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Speaker 1: language that will resonate with them, you know, I think

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Speaker 1: that's the science Munikita's challenge.

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Speaker 2: Rot absolutely. Absolutely. Jargon is probably the biggest stumbling block

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Speaker 2: that science communicators face. And when you're talking to a

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Speaker 2: general audience, people who have maybe some science background, maybe

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Speaker 2: the last science class they took was in high school,

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Speaker 2: but they really need to know about something like COVID

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Speaker 2: or you know, the changing climate or something like that.

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Speaker 2: You know, skipping the jargon and using Layman's terms is

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Speaker 2: really important. I always tell the students, you know, people,

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Speaker 2: if you're using jargon people, if they can't understand it,

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Speaker 2: then they can't begin to make a decision about whether

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Speaker 2: or not they believe it. You know, in order to

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Speaker 2: say that they believe something, then they first have to

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Speaker 2: understand it, otherwise they don't have a choice, right, And

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Speaker 2: I think people sometimes distrust science because because of the jarragon,

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Speaker 2: because it is, like you say, it's like a different language,

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Speaker 2: and so because there's so many great science stories out there,

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Speaker 2: you know, like the you know, discoveries that have been made,

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Speaker 2: Penicillin a great story, you know, and get I think

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Speaker 2: that gets lost. I think some of the gatekeepers of

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Speaker 2: today's science, whether it's spoken or written, have a little

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Speaker 2: bit to do with that. I think once a new

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Speaker 2: generation moves in, some things might change.

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Speaker 1: So I have a I have a kind of a

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Speaker 1: model that I use. Tell me what you think? So

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Speaker 1: I think, all right, what's the message or the idea

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Speaker 1: that I want to share with them? And even if

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Speaker 1: it's something like, you know, something around because my background

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Speaker 1: is in exercise physiology, it might be something about you know, physiology, right,

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Speaker 1: But I just think, well, I don't need to bombard

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Speaker 1: them with you know, jargon and blah blah blah. How

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Speaker 1: do I what's a story I can tell about this truth?

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Speaker 1: Because if I'm telling a story like, for example, I

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Speaker 1: was a fat kid, right, I was a morbidly obese child.

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Speaker 1: Now if I tell them about my story as being

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Speaker 1: a morbidly obese child and all the social, emotional, psychological,

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Speaker 1: physiological variables around that, but it's my story and how

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Speaker 1: I felt, and then what you know now because I'm

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Speaker 1: telling them a story versus talking about childhood obesity in

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Speaker 1: a clinical sense. Right. But because I'm telling them Craig's story,

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Speaker 1: people are engaged, people are connected, people lean in, And

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Speaker 1: so I think that's the challenge with whether it's writing

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Speaker 1: or reading, is how do I connect with humans and

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Speaker 1: make them want to keep listening or reading?

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Speaker 2: Right? I mean, I think story is that's the key. Right.

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Speaker 2: Our brains are kind of wired for story. Everybody's looking

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Speaker 2: for that narrative arc, that sort of beginning, mental and end.

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Speaker 2: And you know a lot of times people want a

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Speaker 2: happy ending, or at least a meaningful or satisfying ending

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Speaker 2: to a story. I think that is I think, you know,

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Speaker 2: one of the assignments that we do in my class

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Speaker 2: is I have the students choose a news story and

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Speaker 2: I ask them to read that same news story across

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Speaker 2: four different platforms, and then they delineate all of the

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Speaker 2: similarities and differences, and they are always shocked by how

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Speaker 2: different that same story can be across four different platforms,

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Speaker 2: four different news platforms. Sometimes it doesn't even sound like

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Speaker 2: the same story, but it's a It's probably the assignment

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Speaker 2: that comes closest to being about story because a technical

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Speaker 2: writing a science writing course that I teach, but that

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Speaker 2: one assignment is one that always I think stays with

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Speaker 2: students for that reason because it's about a story, and

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Speaker 2: a lot of them don't read the news, and so

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Speaker 2: you know, just getting into the news and reading a

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Speaker 2: news story is sort of a new experience for them altogether.

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Speaker 2: But I think, you know that sort of and those

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Speaker 2: stories are stories that stay with them too. You know,

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Speaker 2: they make a presentation and they talk about, you know,

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Speaker 2: how they couldn't believe this happened or they didn't know

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Speaker 2: anything about this, And I mean, I think, you know,

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Speaker 2: news journalists use the power of story all the time.

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Speaker 2: So I think it's it's something that some scientists, at

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Speaker 2: least some scientists that I work with, have started, you know,

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Speaker 2: really latching onto. And some of them are really great storytellers,

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Speaker 2: really gifted, and so some people are just gifted storytellers.

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Speaker 2: And if you if you also happen to be a scientist,

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Speaker 2: then you have a little bit of an edge there,

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Speaker 2: I think.

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Speaker 1: When I mean, I know, you've written a few books,

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Speaker 1: but in general terms, and I guess it's going to

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Speaker 1: vary from person to person, but like when you want

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Speaker 1: to write a book. Of course, we want to write

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Speaker 1: something that's reflective ab our thoughts and feelings and stories

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Speaker 1: and all of that, and we want to write something

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Speaker 1: that's congruent with who we are and how we are.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, like you also want to

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Speaker 1: sell lots of books. Like, if you're going to write

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Speaker 1: a book and it's going to be, among other things,

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Speaker 1: a commercial venture, you want it to be distributed and

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Speaker 1: sold in bookstores. You want people to read it and

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Speaker 1: talk about it and recommend it. So there's a strategic

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Speaker 1: there's a strategic and a commercial element as well. Right,

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Speaker 1: So when you set out to write something new, do

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Speaker 1: you just write the thing that you want to write

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Speaker 1: about or do you think about what will be attractive

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Speaker 1: to an audience.

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Speaker 2: For the most part, would I would say it's ninety

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Speaker 2: percent I write something I want to write it about,

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Speaker 2: but also something that I would want to read. I

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Speaker 2: read a lot, and I read across all genres, and

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Speaker 2: you know, I read a lot of nonfiction, and of

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Speaker 2: course I read a lot of science, but I read

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Speaker 2: a lot of fiction. And so I always write something

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Speaker 2: that I want to write, but I always think about,

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Speaker 2: you know, is this something I would also want to read,

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Speaker 2: and so you know, that's always I think in the

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Speaker 2: back of every writer's mind, is this something that I

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Speaker 2: would want to read? Also?

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Speaker 1: What about what about the I guess understanding the mind

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Speaker 1: of the reader, Shelley, Is that just something that we

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Speaker 1: that organically evolves over time? Like I know, and this

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Speaker 1: is very different, But I have about one hundred thousand

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Speaker 1: followers on social media, and I have this page on

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Speaker 1: Instagram where I literally write things physically on my whiteboard

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Speaker 1: and then I take a photograph of that and I

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Speaker 1: put that meme, that message, those sentences, like it's generally

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Speaker 1: somewhere between five words and forty words, but it's handwritten. Now,

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Speaker 1: if I put that on my social media versus the

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Speaker 1: same message that I type, the handwritten message gets about

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Speaker 1: ten times the traction. But the same words, the exact

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Speaker 1: same message.

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Speaker 2: And it is very interesting, isn't it?

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Speaker 1: Isn't it? It's like the exact like word, it's the

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Speaker 1: same words. But here's this is written by Craig left handed,

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Speaker 1: messy Craig on a whiteboard. And here's a photo of

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Speaker 1: the message on the whiteboard. Now here's the same words

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Speaker 1: in just a typed post. It doesn't have nearly the

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Speaker 1: same engagement or impact and it doesn't get shared. It's funny,

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Speaker 1: what is fact? Yes?

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, fascinating. Yeah have you ever asked

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Speaker 2: anyone about that?

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Speaker 1: I mean yeah, I mean why that is in fact?

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Speaker 1: When I when I do post things on that particular platform.

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Speaker 1: So that's my incident. It used to be called whiteboard lessons,

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Speaker 1: but it's just called Craig Anthony harpenou right. But but yeah,

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Speaker 1: and there's thousands, there's like five thousand of them, so

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Speaker 1: there's you know, and they've been doing it for years.

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Speaker 1: But when I put up something that isn't a whiteboard,

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Speaker 1: people don't like it. They go, where's the whiteboard? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: You know what? I see your post come across my

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Speaker 2: feed all the time, and they're almost always the whiteboard.

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Speaker 2: I wonder if there's something about the handwriting that seems

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Speaker 2: more personal and hurt felt as opposed to a keyboard.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think it's like a human did this. Like

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Speaker 1: I don't know, especially in days, especially in times now,

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Speaker 1: where you're like this is this person generated? Is this? AI?

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Speaker 1: Is this? Is this? Like? You know, even people ask

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Speaker 1: me what program I use for my handwriting, because my

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Speaker 1: handwriting is actually quite neat, and I go, right, I.

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Speaker 2: Actually, yeah, I did not realize that was your handwriting.

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Speaker 2: I thought it was a font meant to look like.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, that is literally my handwriting. And then

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Speaker 1: I take a photo of the writing on the board

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Speaker 1: and then I just it's almost like I bleach it,

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Speaker 1: so it doesn't it just looks like a white background,

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Speaker 1: but the writing is literally my handwriting. So yeah, but

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Speaker 1: it's just funny. I think of that. I think about

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Speaker 1: like whenever I'm trying to and whether it's talking or writing.

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Speaker 1: And I've written a few books as well. I want

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Speaker 1: to get my stuff across, but I'm really interested in

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Speaker 1: understanding the mindset of the reader so that I can

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Speaker 1: meet their not the right word, but meet their needs

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Speaker 1: or expectations as well.

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Speaker 2: Right, that is? That is a tough question. I think

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Speaker 2: it's hard to understand. I guess what you're looking for

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Speaker 2: is consensus and readers. You know, reading is very personal,

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Speaker 2: and what one person finds great another person might think

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Speaker 2: is horrible. I read a lot of book club fiction,

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Speaker 2: and some of it lands and some of it I'm like,

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Speaker 2: how you know who recommended this? Because it's I feel

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Speaker 2: like it's a very personal thing. So, but there does

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Speaker 2: seem to be some consensus around what makes a great

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Speaker 2: book and just an okay book and just a terrible

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Speaker 2: book and so, but I don't think that anyone, even

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Speaker 2: the greatest writers, really have an idea about the mind

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Speaker 2: of the reader. And even some of my favorite authors

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Speaker 2: who are like sort of like you know, automatic buys.

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Speaker 2: If they published something new, I'm going to go out

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Speaker 2: and get it, you know. Sometimes I mean, you know,

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Speaker 2: I might like nine out of ten books, but there's

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Speaker 2: always that one and I'm like, oh, this is you know,

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Speaker 2: this just wasn't for me. Well, the mind of you know,

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Speaker 2: trying to figure out the mind of the reader is

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Speaker 2: a tricky thing.

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Speaker 1: I think, what about what about developing a process like

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Speaker 1: and not everyone has to have the same process or protocol.

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Speaker 1: I tend to start with thoughts and I'll just write

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Speaker 1: like it might be a word, or it might be

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Speaker 1: an idea, and it might be twenty twenty disparate ideas

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Speaker 1: seemingly unrelated, but they're kind of And then I'll write

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Speaker 1: a sentence around that idea or two, and then I'll

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Speaker 1: write a sentence around that other idea or concept, and

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Speaker 1: then I'll over time It's like I've got all these

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Speaker 1: jigsaw puzzles. I don't even know what the picture is

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Speaker 1: going to be, but I've got all these pieces. You know,

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Speaker 1: it kind of almost forms itself over time. M what

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Speaker 1: about you, do you have a process?

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Speaker 2: I am what they call in the writing world a pantser.

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Speaker 2: So they talk about panthers versus plotters. So plotters are

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Speaker 2: people who will go through all of the plot points

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Speaker 2: and outline an entire novel and maybe spend a lot

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Speaker 2: of time doing research and outlining for you know, six

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Speaker 2: months or a year before they sit down and ever

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Speaker 2: start writing a thing. Where I'm the kind of person that,

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Speaker 2: you know, maybe I have an idea for something I

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Speaker 2: want to write, and I noodle on it for a

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Speaker 2: couple of weeks and then one day I just sit

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Speaker 2: down and just start writing. When I wrote the November Molecule,

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Speaker 2: I wrote it during National Novel Writing Month, which is

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Speaker 2: the month of November, and I told myself, I'm going

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Speaker 2: to write a novel during the month of November, and

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to look back. I'm just gonna start

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Speaker 2: writing and just move forward in the narrative without any rubberneckings,

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Speaker 2: So no going back and looking at what this character

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Speaker 2: did or what that character did, because I was what

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Speaker 2: I was looking for was a cohesive narrative. And I thought,

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Speaker 2: if I just moved forward in the story with the

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Speaker 2: first draft, maybe I can do that. And so I

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Speaker 2: wrote the first draft in thirty days and then spent

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Speaker 2: another I guess six or nine months editing it. Wow,

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Speaker 2: but not with any not with any outline or anything,

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Speaker 2: just some idea in my head of the main character

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Speaker 2: and sort of you know, the beginning, middle, and the

403
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Speaker 2: end I sort of had in my head in certain scenes.

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Speaker 2: There's a famous story about Kate Chopin that wrote, I

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Speaker 2: can't remember the name of the novel off the top

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Speaker 2: of my head, but it was a banned book, and

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Speaker 2: when she was asked about it, they asked her about

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Speaker 2: the main character. It was the Awakening. That was the

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Speaker 2: name of the novel, The Awakening, and she they banned

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Speaker 2: the book and they asked her about the main character,

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Speaker 2: and you know, why did you write the character doing that?

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Speaker 2: And she said, she responded, By the time I knew

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Speaker 2: what she was up to, it was too late. And

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Speaker 2: so that's somebody that just sat down at the typewriter

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Speaker 2: and after a while, you kind of get boxed in

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Speaker 2: because the character kind of takes on a life of

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Speaker 2: their own, and so they can't just do or say

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Speaker 2: anything because now you've developed them, and you've got ten

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Speaker 2: or twelve chapters or fifteen or twenty chapters, and so

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Speaker 2: you know, there's only certain things that character. You know,

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Speaker 2: you've kind of built that character, and so they kind

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Speaker 2: of they kind of take on a life of their own.

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Speaker 2: There's times I've looked back on stuff I've written and

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Speaker 2: I didn't remember writing it. It was like I was

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Speaker 2: writing in a fugue state, and I think the character

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Speaker 2: was just then the driver's seat.

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Speaker 1: Wow, I wonder if I love that. I'm just thinking now,

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Speaker 1: like when that author said, you know, it's like by

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Speaker 1: the time you know the character emerged or whatever, it's

430
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:19,920
Speaker 1: almost like your subconscious is writing and your your your

431
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 1: conscious mind isn't even aware of what's going. And then

432
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,400
Speaker 1: by the time it emerges, you know, it's like your

433
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 1: prefrontal cortex is offline and your your subconscious is just

434
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 1: opening this this door of wonder and you're like, where

435
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: did that come from? Oh? Because that wasn't even in

436
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 1: my mind, but it was somewhere.

437
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 2: Right, you know, that's how it happens.

438
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So I'm guessing the etymology of pantherer

439
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 1: is that flowing by the cd of pants? What is that?

440
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 2: I think? I think so I don't know the etymology,

441
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 2: but I imagine it's just somebody that that's exactly a sort

442
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 2: of flying by the seat of your pants. So I'm

443
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 2: not a disorganized person, but I am, in my heart

444
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 2: a creative and I think creatives just naturally don't like, uh,

445
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 2: rules or you know, I mean, guidelines is a better

446
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,679
Speaker 2: is a is a better thing? For me? I wouldn't

447
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 2: want to box myself. I would feel boxed in and

448
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 2: maybe a little bit crowded creative. You know, from a

449
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 2: creative standpoint, if I were to outline my work, well.

450
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 4: I think that that that I'm with you, like, I

451
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 4: think that sometimes that having to work within a box

452
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,880
Speaker 4: or a set structure or a set framework, that's kind

453
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 4: of at odds with creativity because now you've created.

454
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 1: Boundaries and you're like, fuck the boundaries, Like you know,

455
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 1: it's like, this is the whole point. This is not real.

456
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:09,160
Speaker 1: This is creativity, This is this is expression. Like there's

457
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 1: already enough rules outside of my writing. I don't need

458
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 1: rules in my writing as well.

459
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 2: Right, that's exactly right.

460
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 1: Do you they talk about what's that dude who wrote

461
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: or who did all that research on flow has got

462
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 1: a really interesting name. Anyway, it'll come to me. But

463
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 1: tell me about flow state for writing, if that's a

464
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 1: term that you use or something like. Sometimes I get

465
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 1: into I get into a flow state, not often, but

466
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 1: sometimes also we're speaking, I will say sometimes I'm sometimes

467
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 1: I'll do a half day workshop and this sounds weird,

468
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 1: but you'll get it. It's like it's coming through me,

469
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 1: not from me. And sometimes sometimes I write and I

470
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 1: feel the same and I feel just and it might

471
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: end up I don't even do anything with it, but

472
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 1: I have. It's like something is emerging and I've got

473
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,239
Speaker 1: to get it out of my head. And it's like

474
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: I fall into a time vortex where I've been writing

475
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 1: for five minutes and I look up and I've actually

476
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 1: been writing for an hour. Do you get into that space?

477
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 2: Yes? I do absolutely sometimes, And I think lately I've

478
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 2: been doing a lot of revising of something that I'm

479
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 2: working on. But when I sit down to write something new,

480
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 2: especially if it's something that I'm excited about, it's a

481
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 2: new scene or you know, it's the ending, and I've

482
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 2: had it in my head and everything has jelled, and

483
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 2: I sit down to write and it just just like

484
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 2: you said, I can't type fast enough, Like I'm thinking

485
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 2: faster than I can actually type. That happens a lot,

486
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 2: and then other days it's like you turn on the

487
00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:00,239
Speaker 2: faucet and there's nothing, and then you wonder, you know,

488
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 2: this is something I even know how to do.

489
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, like I feel like it happens despite me, not

490
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 1: because of me. Sometimes, you know, yes'ctly creativity is yeah,

491
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: and you can't exactly you can't really strategize around it

492
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 1: because you can't say, well, you know, tomorrow morning at nine,

493
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: I'm going to be creative.

494
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 2: It's like, no, you're not right, that's right now, you're.

495
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 1: Actually going to be creative in the car, yeah, you know,

496
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 1: when it's completely inconvenient as you're walking into that Yeah,

497
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 1: as you're walking into that meeting.

498
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 2: Right or in the shower where we always have you know,

499
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:47,479
Speaker 2: pen and paper. That's the worst. Everybody talks about that.

500
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 2: I mean, there's been times where I feel like, you know,

501
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 2: I've tried to talk into my phone, like into the

502
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 2: notes or times where I think of something and I

503
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:01,719
Speaker 2: think it's so good, I won't forget it. That is,

504
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 2: never it works out, I always forget it.

505
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 1: So I read in your bio. I read in your bio,

506
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 1: is Shelley that you've edited over two hundred scientific manuscripts.

507
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 2: Yes.

508
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: Wow, that must be analogous to punching yourself in the face.

509
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 2: Uh. Yeah, I you know, when I started working with scientists,

510
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 2: I was I'm very much a creative and so and

511
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 2: the and the writing was pretty dry, and I tried

512
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 2: at first to sort of, you know, inject a little

513
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 2: bit of creativity. I learned my lesson really quickly that

514
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,959
Speaker 2: they just don't publish things in scientific journals if it's uh,

515
00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 2: if it's you know, it sounds like a juicy, good story.

516
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 2: They like their dry, rigid style, especially the journals. And

517
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 2: I have edited a lot of papers on everything from

518
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 2: anthrax and various neurotoxins to malaria to COVID, the worst

519
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 2: thing that ever happened to my scientific My scientific manuscripts

520
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 2: on diseases were at least interesting. And when COVID hit,

521
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 2: and it was all over the news and it was

522
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 2: on everyone's lips, and they started sending me COVID papers.

523
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 2: I was like, I was so burned out from the whole,

524
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 2: the whole COVID thing, and I'm like, I'll read anything, please,

525
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 2: can we go back to malaria or you know, just

526
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 2: osmyosis or something like that. So, yes, lots lots and

527
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 2: lots of grants, lots and lots of scientific manuscripts, and

528
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 2: after a while, even if you're not a PhD scientist,

529
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 2: you start to pick up on the science and learn

530
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 2: some things. And I think when I started twenty years ago,

531
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 2: I would have told you that I was not interested

532
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 2: in science at all, and today I'm very, very interested.

533
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 2: I do a lot of reading on nutrition and exercise

534
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 2: science in particular. Wow, a lot of reading about food

535
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 2: and food science, just you know, in my spirit, in

536
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 2: my personal time. Nothing that I'm editing.

537
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 1: But yeah, now, oh so many things I want to

538
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 1: talk to you about now. Is that because we spoke

539
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 1: off air and you said you're comfortable to talk about it,

540
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,959
Speaker 1: so you have MS? Am I correct?

541
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 2: That's correct? Yes?

542
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 1: And so is you're interested in You're interested in nutrition?

543
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 1: Perhaps related to that, like trying to manage your MS

544
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 1: and your health optimally or is it just something different

545
00:33:57,840 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 1: a little.

546
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 2: Bit so even you know, prior to my diagnosis with MS,

547
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 2: and I've had MS for twenty four years, and but

548
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 2: prior to my diagnosis because they ruled it out and

549
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 2: then eight years later I was in the hospital paralyzed

550
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:19,280
Speaker 2: on my left side. And at the time they said,

551
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 2: you know, we're not sure that you'll walk again, and

552
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 2: if you do it, you might have a lamp And

553
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 2: that was probably the main concern. Even though everything was

554
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 2: turned off on the left side, things that you don't

555
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 2: think about, like my vocal cords, my eyeball, my di

556
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 2: my diaphragm, like everything on the left side was turned off.

557
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:45,800
Speaker 2: But you know, the leg. Of course, they want you

558
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 2: to be able to walk, and so I thought, you know,

559
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 2: I need so I started physical and occupational therapy, which

560
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 2: I did for about eight months, and I guess that's

561
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 2: probably you know, up until that point, I did a

562
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 2: lot reading about macronutrients and the importance of protein and

563
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 2: things like that because I was working out, lifting a

564
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 2: lot of heavy weight leg pressing eight hundred and sixty

565
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 2: five pounds and running long running a long races, and

566
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 2: so I did a lot of reading about food and

567
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,839
Speaker 2: what's good for the muscles. But then when I got diagnosed,

568
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,760
Speaker 2: I would say I probably stopped eating, for the most part,

569
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 2: any kind of fast food or junk food and pretty

570
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 2: much anything that comes from a package, and so, you know,

571
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 2: and kind of shifted more to a whole foods diet

572
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:48,760
Speaker 2: after that. And then since then I have gotten really

573
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 2: interested in sort of like as I get older, sort

574
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 2: of you know, maintaining healthy blood sugar and cholesterol levels

575
00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:02,839
Speaker 2: and things like that. And the science is.

576
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 1: Just, yes, caeping inflammation to a minimal minimum.

577
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 2: Right, Yes, that's exactly right.

578
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 1: And how I how I You know, this is a

579
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 1: silly question, but not really how are you now? Like?

580
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 1: You look great, you sound great?

581
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 2: Thanks? I feel great, and I think I do really well.

582
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 2: I'm on so for years, I was on injectables that

583
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 2: I gave myself. You know. Sometimes it was on a

584
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 2: daily basis. Other drugs were three times a week. Now

585
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,840
Speaker 2: I have an infusion every six months that sort of

586
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 2: knocks out my B cells, the cells that make antibodies.

587
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,720
Speaker 2: So I'm on what they call a B cell depletion drug,

588
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 2: and I've been on that for about six years and

589
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,359
Speaker 2: I've done really well. But it's all I gotta say.

590
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 2: It's It's always sobering to go to the MS client

591
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 2: because there are a lot of people using walkers or

592
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 2: in wheelchairs, and so I feel like I'm always filled

593
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 2: with you know, gratitude, and sometimes i feel even maybe

594
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 2: a little lucky that you know that I've worked with

595
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 2: scientists and interested in reading science and so have you know,

596
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 2: an advantage I guess that way, you know, navigating the

597
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 2: scientific literature, being able to go into Google scholar and

598
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 2: look up something. And if I can't understand it, then

599
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:37,919
Speaker 2: I've got people around me that can. So I don't

600
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 2: I don't take anything for granted, I guess these days.

601
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:46,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, well it's it's twenty four years with MS, and

602
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 1: to be as healthy and functional as you are, you're

603
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 1: doing something right. So that's great. You know what I'm

604
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 1: fascinated in at the moment, I've been opening the door

605
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 1: on the relationship between I mean, I'll be my PhD

606
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 1: is in neuropsychology, but I'm just fascinated with the way

607
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: that our thinking can make us sick. You know, yes,

608
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,400
Speaker 1: and there's so much research around you know, placebos like

609
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:16,240
Speaker 1: our thinking making us well, and but just the impact

610
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,479
Speaker 1: of you like, even when you think about the fact

611
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:22,240
Speaker 1: that and we're detering a little bit from the book

612
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 1: and the writing conversation. But you know when you think

613
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 1: about when you obsess or ruminate on negative things, which

614
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 1: a lot of people do, and there's no criticism in this,

615
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,240
Speaker 1: just awareness. You know, when you're ruminating on negative things,

616
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 1: problems that might happen in the future, and things that

617
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 1: did happen all that time ago that we can't undo now,

618
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 1: and what that person across the road might think of

619
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,720
Speaker 1: us or whatever. Right, and it's all understandable human stuff.

620
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 1: But because your body can't tell the difference between what

621
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 1: is real and what is perceived, so then your body

622
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,799
Speaker 1: responds as though you're actually in a problem. Now. Now

623
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 1: you're producing adrenaline and cortisol and all of these things. Right,

624
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 1: and like just just when you isolate one bit, which

625
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 1: is cortisol. Cortisol is like cortisole pumping around your body

626
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:15,840
Speaker 1: all day or a lot of the day, which is

627
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 1: a lot of people because they overthink and they you know,

628
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 1: analysis paralysis, and they're constantly worrying about things that might

629
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:29,400
Speaker 1: happen and literally shutting down their immune system, you know,

630
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 1: creating cellular inflammation. It's like I truly think that. I mean,

631
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 1: and I know this is no groundbreaking revelation, but like

632
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 1: we talk all the time when we're talking about physical health,

633
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 1: obviously we talk about lifestyle and food and exercise and

634
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 1: booze and drugs and sleep and cigarettes. But I think

635
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 1: maybe more importantly is your ability to have a calm mind,

636
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,800
Speaker 1: you know, to be able, to be hopeful, to be grateful,

637
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 1: to be you know. And I'm and this is obviously

638
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 1: easy to said and done, but you have a look

639
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:08,840
Speaker 1: at the relationship between people, you know, people that you

640
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 1: know that a highly anxious and and constantly doom and

641
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 1: gloom and constantly focusing on that it's not many of

642
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 1: them are healthy.

643
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 2: That yes, that's exactly right, That's exactly right. I that

644
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 2: is just I've listened to so many podcasts about that

645
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 2: very thing. Andrew Huberman, I guess, is probably the last

646
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 2: person that I listened to who talked about that. There

647
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:43,799
Speaker 2: are several people that post things on Instagram that, you know,

648
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 2: where they talk about how important gratitude is and that

649
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 2: if you'll just stop, you know, every day, like if

650
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 2: you think you're having a bad day, just stop and

651
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 2: think of three things that you're grateful for and so

652
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,120
Speaker 2: I do that all the time. I recently had a

653
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 2: family member who had a serious illness and it was

654
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:07,799
Speaker 2: one of those things where the doctors just don't really

655
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,359
Speaker 2: know what was wrong. And I said, but you know,

656
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 2: you've got some medication. We do have doctors that are

657
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,399
Speaker 2: looking into it, You've got family members that are helping out,

658
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:20,719
Speaker 2: You've got people that can take care of things at work.

659
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 2: I mean, we just had so much to be grateful for,

660
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 2: even though it was really, you know, a kind of

661
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 2: a bad situation at the time. And so I've gotten

662
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 2: into sort of a habit, you know, every time something

663
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:39,240
Speaker 2: bad happens, just taking a step back and checking myself

664
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 2: and making sure that you know that that gratitude is

665
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 2: always there.

666
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 1: I was. I was in the cafe an hour or

667
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 1: two ago, and I'm always you know, shutting down ideas

668
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 1: thinking and I was, I was thinking about this very thing.

669
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 1: I was thinking about gratitude. And you know, I've got

670
00:41:57,400 --> 00:41:59,800
Speaker 1: one of my mates is a quadriplegic, and I've spoken

671
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 1: of him a bit lately, so I apologize to my audience.

672
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:04,799
Speaker 1: But you know, if you can stand up out of

673
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 1: a chair and walk to the door like you and

674
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 1: I can. Well, that's amazing. If you can turn on

675
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 1: a tap and there's cold water, that's amazing. If you

676
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,319
Speaker 1: can press a button then the room gets warm. Well,

677
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 1: you're privileged, you know. It's like, can you open the

678
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 1: fridge and there's food in there? Well, that's a lot

679
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 1: of people, you know. And I was doing a little

680
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 1: bit of research on poverty. So as of twenty twenty four,

681
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:32,880
Speaker 1: nine point two percent of the world's population, seven hundred

682
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 1: million people live on less than two dollars fifteen a day,

683
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:42,319
Speaker 1: so extreme poverty. And about another twenty six percent of

684
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:46,760
Speaker 1: the population live on less than three dollars sixty five,

685
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 1: so between two dollars fifteen and three sixty five a day.

686
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 1: So that's over that's thirty five percent. That's more than

687
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 1: a third of the people on the planet. So over

688
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 1: two million, well over two million people live on less

689
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 1: more than three dollars sixty five US a day. And

690
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: when I hear that, Shelley, I want to punch myself

691
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,719
Speaker 1: in the face. When I complain about my bullshit, you know.

692
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 2: Right right, yes, I hear you. I the same, the

693
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 2: same when I watch the news and see, you know,

694
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 2: some of the things that are happening. I think that

695
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 2: exact same thing. When I talk to the students and

696
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 2: when we actually am coming back to the end the

697
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 2: news assignment, I talk about how when you watch the news,

698
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 2: it's a lot of suffering. They don't report anything in

699
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 2: the news that's not suffering. So it's war and natural

700
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 2: disasters and you know, politics. And I tell the students,

701
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 2: you know, try not to let these things get in

702
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 2: your head too much. What I want you to do is,

703
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 2: you know, when you're reading about these things, keep in

704
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 2: mind what you can do. You know, I can't personally

705
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 2: changed the climate for the entire planet, but I can recycle.

706
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:14,240
Speaker 2: I can purchase, you know, household appliances that are energy efficient.

707
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 2: You know, I can turn out the lights. I can

708
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 2: you know, I can do things like that. I can't

709
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 2: stop systemic racism, but I can treat black and brown

710
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 2: people in my life with respect. I can't do anything about,

711
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:31,760
Speaker 2: you know, politics, but I can exercise my right to vote,

712
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,360
Speaker 2: you know, things like that, Like you know, start with

713
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:38,360
Speaker 2: yourself and the people around you. You know, the person

714
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 2: next to you, and so you know, that's what I

715
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 2: try to focus on. And I think my grandmother, who

716
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:49,759
Speaker 2: was a quadriplegic from age thirty until the time that

717
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 2: she died. Probably was the first person who I felt

718
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 2: like lived that out as you know, as an example

719
00:44:58,200 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 2: for me.

720
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:04,240
Speaker 1: That's amazing. Yeah, I think that that's that very stoic

721
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 1: philosophy of what's in my control. I'll control my controllables.

722
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 1: You know, what's the best use of my time and

723
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 1: energy and ability based on my values and who I

724
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:20,839
Speaker 1: want to be and how I want to be? What

725
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 1: is the best use like what should I invest energy in?

726
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:28,879
Speaker 1: Like think about it, and I'm I'm I'm just as

727
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:34,320
Speaker 1: guilty as anybody at different times, but like wasting energy

728
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 1: on things that I can't control, you know, and then

729
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:43,920
Speaker 1: coming back to being present, like okay today, like today,

730
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 1: what's the best use of my energy today based on

731
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:50,320
Speaker 1: who I am and how I want to be today?

732
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 1: You know, I know that's a bit deep, but it's

733
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:54,840
Speaker 1: almost like a daily check in.

734
00:45:55,960 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 2: Yes, I think so. I think that's exactly right. You know,

735
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 2: you have a platform, uh and a lot of reach.

736
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 2: So that's an advantage that you have. You know, I personally,

737
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 2: I don't personally have that, but I do have, you know,

738
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:18,839
Speaker 2: my classroom, my students, and my kids, you know who

739
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 2: I try to you know, set an example for so.

740
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 2: You know, I was talking to a friend the other

741
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 2: day about mistakes I made. I always refer to it

742
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 2: as my pre prefrontal cortex version of Shelley. Uh. And

743
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 2: you know all the things that I did. And but

744
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 2: you got to give yourself some grace because that's before

745
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:49,759
Speaker 2: you knew, uh what you what you didn't know? I guess.

746
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:51,439
Speaker 3: Yeah.

747
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:55,720
Speaker 1: I mean there's like self loathing understandable, but it's not helpful,

748
00:46:56,719 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 1: you know, self awareness on the other hand, great, right,

749
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 1: I think. So, yes, Now, a couple of things before

750
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 1: we go. I read that you taught creative writing at

751
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 1: Tennessee Stipe Prison. Tell me a little bit about that.

752
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 2: Well, that was actually my grandmother that taught creative writing

753
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:21,280
Speaker 2: Tennessee State. Yes, he taught creative writing at the Tennessee

754
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:26,399
Speaker 2: State Prison. So you know in her you know, from

755
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 2: her wheelchair, wow and so and sometimes when I was

756
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:33,759
Speaker 2: growing up, you know, she would keep in touch and

757
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:36,359
Speaker 2: people would get out and sometimes you know, we would

758
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 2: have dinner with someone that she met who had been

759
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 2: in prison, who got out of prison, and she, I

760
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 2: think was you know, great example. I think I wrote

761
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 2: about her not too long ago, actually on Instagram about

762
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 2: how one of the prisoners told her that she didn't

763
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 2: understand what it was like to be in prison, and

764
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:01,399
Speaker 2: she wrote them a letter about how you know, her

765
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:04,320
Speaker 2: body was a prison, that there were things that her body,

766
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:06,840
Speaker 2: her own body, wouldn't allow her to do, like run

767
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 2: or hug your kids like she wanted to do. And

768
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 2: so that you know, people have different kinds of prison,

769
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 2: and some of those are self imposed, and that you

770
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:20,239
Speaker 2: can look, you know, at your bars or through them,

771
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:24,239
Speaker 2: and so you know, there again, you know, back to

772
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:28,319
Speaker 2: the gratitude. You know, what can you do? And she said,

773
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:30,360
Speaker 2: you know, you can be an example for other prisoners.

774
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 2: You can, you know, do the things that you are

775
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 2: allowed to do in you know where you're at. Do

776
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:41,319
Speaker 2: what you can with what you have.

777
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 1: Think about the psychological and emotional prisons we build for ourselves,

778
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 1: like the fee based prison. You know. Yes, happy birthday

779
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:52,960
Speaker 1: for yesterday.

780
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 2: Oh thank you.

781
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 1: I saw it. I thought I was going to comment that.

782
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:01,240
Speaker 1: I thought, now I'm going to wait until tomorrow. So happy,

783
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 1: you know. So twenty nine hows it feel?

784
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 2: Right? It awesome? Last year in my timies?

785
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:11,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, thirty is coming up. Dude, So you know,

786
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:14,399
Speaker 1: batten down the hatches once you hit the big three.

787
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 1: Oh hey, we'll say goodbye, affair. But so the book

788
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:21,959
Speaker 1: is called The November Molecule, Shelley, is there anything else

789
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:26,919
Speaker 1: you want to open the eyes of our audience about website,

790
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:32,360
Speaker 1: any anywhere you want to direct people? Now? I know

791
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:34,880
Speaker 1: you've never done I know you've never done a podcast,

792
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:37,360
Speaker 1: but what guests do at this point in time is

793
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 1: they plug their stuff, So feel free.

794
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, my book, Venovano Molecule is available on Amazon.

795
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:49,919
Speaker 2: If you like thrillers and you like science, I think

796
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:53,400
Speaker 2: you would really enjoy it. It has won a couple

797
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:56,839
Speaker 2: of awards, and so I think it's a great read.

798
00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, perfect, I will I'll put a link to that.

799
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 1: And I appreciate you. It's so nice talking to you.

800
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 1: You're such a great communicator. You know, maybe we'll get

801
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 1: you back at some stage if you're interested, and we

802
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 1: could maybe do a little writing workshop with you, because

803
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 1: everyone wants to be able to write better, so.

804
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:19,880
Speaker 2: I would love that.

805
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:23,319
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, that'd be great, Shelly. We'll say goodbye our

806
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 1: fair but for the moment, thanks so much for being

807
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:28,360
Speaker 1: on the You project. I appreciate you all right, Thank you,