1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:02,520 Speaker 1: I get a team. Welcome to another installment of the 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: year project. It's Harps. Who else would it be. We 3 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: hope you're having a good day wherever you are, whatever 4 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: you're doing. Professor Shelley Richards. I stumbled across on LinkedIn, 5 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 1: which I never normally do. I'm not the person who 6 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 1: gets guests. I have a team that gets guests. But 7 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: I was looking at Shelley's profile and reading what she does, 8 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: and she's written a book called The November Molecule and 9 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: a few other things, and I went and also she 10 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,480 Speaker 1: teaches writing. I'm a writer, not a very good one. 11 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:36,919 Speaker 1: But I thought, how can I get a free coaching session? 12 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 1: And I thought I could do that under the guise 13 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: of a podcast. Hi, Shelley, how are you? 14 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 2: I'm great? How are you? 15 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:52,160 Speaker 1: I'm very good. Hey, congratulations on your podcast debut. This 16 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: is number one for you. Well, thanks for letting me 17 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: walk you through the podcast door for the first time. 18 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: Did you tell anybody that you would doing a podcast 19 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: and did you get any advice from anyone? 20 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 2: I did so. 21 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 3: I told a colleague of mine who's I've done a 22 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 3: couple of podcasts, one where she kind of went in 23 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,559 Speaker 3: blind and didn't know any of the questions ahead of time, 24 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 3: and another where she kind of had a list of 25 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 3: what to expect in terms of questions, and she said 26 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 3: it didn't go how she expected it what at all. 27 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 3: In fact, the one where she went in blind, she said, 28 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 3: was great, and the one where she actually knew what 29 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 3: the questions were going to be was sort of a 30 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 3: not so great experience. 31 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: It's really interesting, you know. I mean, I do this 32 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: every day, right, so I'm and I think you and 33 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: I had a brief chat the other day. And by 34 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: the way, if I talk too fast in my weird 35 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: Australian accent, just tell me and I'll slide down. But 36 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: you and I had a conversation the other day and 37 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: I said that, you know, we're six years in. We're 38 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: an everyday show. And so I mean with my guests 39 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: like you, I want to know a little bit about you, 40 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 1: but not too much because I want to learn along 41 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: with our listeners. I want to learn as we go. 42 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: And I probably once or twice a week I'm also 43 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: on someone else's podcast and they often want to send 44 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 1: me the questions and I go, don't send me the questions. 45 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: They're like, oh, that's that's how it works. I'm like, well, 46 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 1: I won't look at the questions, so you know, if 47 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: you're going to talk to me about whatever it is 48 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:40,919 Speaker 1: I do. I don't need to prepare, like I don't 49 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: need to know what's coming, you know. And all of 50 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: my feedback from my listeners is that, or not all 51 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: of it. A lot of the feedback is that it's 52 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 1: conversational and it's organic, and that's what they like. It's 53 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: not this to and fro, prescripted, choreographed. Here's my question, 54 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: here's shell his answer. Here's question two, here's answer to 55 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: here's you know, I don't think it makes for great 56 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: listening and probably not great storytelling either, right, you know. 57 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 2: I think you're right. Yeah. 58 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: Do you do you think that we've had a couple 59 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,119 Speaker 1: of people that I can't I won't mention, but we've 60 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:20,919 Speaker 1: had a couple of authors on who write brilliantly, but 61 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: they don't necessarily and I'm not saying this for your 62 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: benefit because I know you'll be good. I've spoken to you, 63 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 1: but something like that. 64 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 4: They're very great, they're they're very good at writing, very effective, 65 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 4: very engaging writers, but sometimes not great communicators, like verbally, 66 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 4: like in a conversation. 67 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: Have you noticed that there's there's absolete? Yeah, what is 68 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: that about? 69 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 3: Well, you know, when I was growing up, my dad 70 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 3: was a writer. My grandparents on on that side were writers, 71 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 3: and my dad whenever he had something to say to me, 72 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 3: would write a letter. And he said that allowed him 73 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 3: to say what he wanted to say, how he wanted 74 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 3: to say it, uninterrupted. And so I think that's what 75 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 3: most writers are after they want to say. You know, 76 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 3: language is a very important thing, and word choice is 77 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 3: a really important thing. And so when you're talking, I 78 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 3: think all writers go back in time and I wish 79 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 3: I would have used this word or phrased it this way. 80 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 3: And when you're writing, you have the opportunity to revise, 81 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 3: and when you're you know, talking, you don't get that 82 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 3: that chance. 83 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no editing, there's no post conversation edit, right, yeah. 84 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 5: Yeah. 85 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: And I think also when you want to especially if 86 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 1: you want to have a meaningful interaction with somebody, I mean, 87 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: like I really I want to talk about something that's 88 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 1: very important to me, I guess sitting down and writing 89 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,720 Speaker 1: it or typing it, whatever the case is, gives you 90 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: the opportunity to think through deeply and meaningfully, rather than 91 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 1: just being in the moment interaction where you or the 92 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:14,119 Speaker 1: other where somebody might get emotional and the conversation gets derailed. 93 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 2: You know, right, yes, absolutely so? 94 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: Is it? Is it possible for us even as we are, 95 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 1: you know, adults that have been thinking and you know, 96 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: writing and communicating for a long time, can we become 97 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: can we become not only can we become better writers? 98 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: But like you, like you, you're a professor of writing, 99 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: you teach writing, but also you you know, you've opened 100 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:44,160 Speaker 1: the creative door and you've written some some fiction. Right, 101 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: Is it possible to tap into our creativity later in 102 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: life and discover that maybe we could write something creative, 103 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: something fiction based. 104 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 2: I absolutely think that. 105 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,839 Speaker 3: I think one of the greatest things about writing is 106 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:05,720 Speaker 3: that it is what makes great writing great is timeless. 107 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 2: And that's true for fiction or nonfiction. 108 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 3: And so all of the things that you read in 109 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 3: a book, like the Elements of Style, for example, you know, 110 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 3: was true in nineteen eighteen. Still those same principles are 111 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 3: true today. And so when people have those principles in 112 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 3: mind and they write enough, whether it's fiction or nonfiction, 113 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 3: I think after a while, you develop a certain set 114 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 3: of skills, and after a while that set of skills 115 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 3: becomes more instinct and intuition, and you know intuitively whether 116 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 3: or not a paragraph is great, or an opening to 117 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 3: a story is great. And I think people that read 118 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 3: and if you want to write fiction, I would say, 119 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 3: read fiction. If you want to rate, you want to 120 00:06:55,400 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 3: write great nonfiction, then read great nonfiction. Is really the 121 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 3: key because some people are just really great masters in 122 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 3: the art of imitation, which a lot of great writing is. 123 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 3: There's a lot of retelling, a lot of fan fiction 124 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 3: out there. 125 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: So yeah, it's in the I started my PhD in 126 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen November, so and hopefully in the next six 127 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: months or so I hand my thesis in. But I 128 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: you know, I discovered that especially at that level. You know, 129 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: undergrad is relatively easy, right, but but academic writing at 130 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: that level is so so the opposite of creative writing. 131 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 1: It's so bland Shelley, it's so boring, it's so uninspiring, Shelley. 132 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: For God's sake. 133 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 3: That is absolutely true. It is dry as the desert 134 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 3: it is. It gives me cut mouth to read it. 135 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 3: And I tell my students, you know, you can rate, 136 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 3: you can write great science using metaphor and analogy or 137 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 3: you know, plugging out something unusual or unique about whatever 138 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 3: it is that you're writing about and incorporate that in 139 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 3: your science writing. Because if it's not interesting, people aren't 140 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 3: going to read it, even even people in your same 141 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 3: field won't be interested in it if it's not engaging. 142 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 3: And some people are just really great at writing you know, 143 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 3: good science that's that's not dry. And some of that 144 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 3: is journal editors who are very old school who don't 145 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 3: like it when people sort of like you know, muck 146 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 3: around with the status quo and use metaphor and things 147 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 3: like that, that sort of really beef up the engagement. 148 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 2: I think it's. 149 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: Such a pity because like when I come into and 150 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: where I'm doing it is place. It's a university in Australia. 151 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: There's a bunch of them called Monash University. And my 152 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: lab is called the called Brain Park, which is the 153 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:11,079 Speaker 1: neuroscience and neuropsychology component, right, and it's great, and they're great, 154 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: and I'm very you know, it's like I'm like an outlier. 155 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,199 Speaker 1: I'm like a pro academic in an academic world, right, 156 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: so I'm not the perfect you know, and because I 157 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: come from. I've owned my own businesses. I've employed over 158 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,719 Speaker 1: five hundred people. I run companies, I do staff. I'm 159 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: a corporate speaker. I'm very much an experiential boots on 160 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 1: the ground, you know, get your hands dirty. That's me. 161 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: And then you step into the world of academia, especially 162 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: when you're doing a science PhD. As you know, it's 163 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 1: like it is, it's a lot. For me, it was 164 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: like learning a whole new language, I mean, and the writing, 165 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 1: and the writing where you've got to go oh, and 166 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: obviously because it's got to be perfect, like there can't 167 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:02,959 Speaker 1: be any you know, there's no opinions, there's no there's 168 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 1: no metaphors, there's no like, there's no storytelling, I mean 169 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: kind of. But yeah, that was for me, not even 170 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:15,559 Speaker 1: understanding the research or running the studies or interpreting the data, 171 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: but actually writing it now and then out of that 172 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: where I would go and talk to a corporate audience 173 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,439 Speaker 1: and I want to talk to them about my research 174 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 1: because it's very relevant to you know, it's it's about 175 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: around it metacognition, which is thinking about thinking, and metaperception, 176 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: which is understanding how other people see you. So it's 177 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: all very relevant in a communication based you know, reality, 178 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 1: where we've got to have conversations, resolve conflict, flex sought 179 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: out problems, you know, work as a team. But trying 180 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: to turn my research into a presentation and a story 181 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: and a language that will resonate with them, you know, 182 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: I think that's the science Munikita's challenge. 183 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:03,119 Speaker 2: Rot absolutely. 184 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 3: Absolutely, Jargon is probably the biggest stumbling block that science 185 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 3: communicators face. And when you're talking to a general audience, 186 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 3: people who have maybe some science background, maybe the last 187 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,839 Speaker 3: science class they took was in high school, but they 188 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 3: really need to know about something like COVID or you know, 189 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 3: the changing climate or something like that. You know, skipping 190 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 3: the jargon and using Layman's terms is really important. I 191 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 3: always tell the students, you know, people, if you're using 192 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 3: jargon people, if they can't understand it, then they can't 193 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 3: begin to make a decision about whether or not they 194 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 3: believe it. You know, in order to say that they 195 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:54,679 Speaker 3: believe something, then they first have to understand it, otherwise 196 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 3: they don't have a choice, right, And I think people 197 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:02,679 Speaker 3: sometimes distrust science because because of the jarragon, because it is, 198 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 3: like you say, it's like a different language, and so 199 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 3: because there's so many great science stories out there, you know, 200 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 3: like the you know, discoveries that have been made, Penicillin 201 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 3: a great story, you know, and get I think that 202 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:24,679 Speaker 3: gets lost. I think some of the gatekeepers of today's science, 203 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 3: whether it's spoken or written, have a little bit to 204 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:32,079 Speaker 3: do with that. I think once a new generation moves in, 205 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 3: some things might change. 206 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: So I have a I have a kind of a 207 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: model that I use. Tell me what you think? So 208 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: I think, all right, what's the message or the idea 209 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 1: that I want to share with them? And even if 210 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 1: it's something like, you know, something around because my background 211 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:53,559 Speaker 1: is in exercise physiology, it might be something about you know, physiology, right, 212 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: But I just think, well, I don't need to bombard 213 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: them with you know, jargon and blah blah blah. How 214 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: do I what's a story I can tell about this truth? 215 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: Because if I'm telling a story like, for example, I 216 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: was a fat kid, right, I was a morbidly obese child. 217 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: Now if I tell them about my story as being 218 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:17,319 Speaker 1: a morbidly obese child and all the social, emotional, psychological, 219 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: physiological variables around that, but it's my story and how 220 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: I felt, and then what you know now because I'm 221 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: telling them a story versus talking about childhood obesity in 222 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: a clinical sense, right, But because I'm telling them Craig's story, 223 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 1: people are engaged, people are connected, people lean in, And 224 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: so I think that's the challenge with whether it's writing 225 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: or reading, is how do I connect with humans and 226 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 1: make them want to keep listening or reading? 227 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 2: Right? I mean, I think story is that's the key. Right. 228 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 2: Our brains are kind of wired for story. 229 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 3: Everybody's looking for that narrative arc, that sort of beginning, 230 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 3: mental and end. And you know a lot of times 231 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 3: people want a happy ending, or at least a meaningful 232 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 3: or satisfying ending to a story. I think that is 233 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 3: I think, you know, one of the assignments that we 234 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 3: do in my class is I have the students choose 235 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 3: a news story and I ask them to read that 236 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 3: same news story across four different platforms, and then they 237 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 3: delineate all of the similarities and differences, and they are 238 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 3: always shocked by how different that same story can be 239 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 3: across four different platforms, four different news platforms. Sometimes it 240 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 3: doesn't even sound like the same story, but it's a 241 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 3: It's probably the assignment that comes closest to being about 242 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 3: story because a technical writing a science writing course that 243 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 3: I teach, but that one assignment is one that always 244 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 3: I think stays with students for that reason because it's 245 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 3: about a story, and a lot of them don't read 246 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 3: the news, and so you know, just getting into the 247 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 3: news and reading a news story is sort of a 248 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 3: new experience for them altogether. But I think, you know 249 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 3: that sort of and those stories are stories that stay 250 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 3: with them too. You know, they make a presentation and 251 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 3: they talk about, you know, how they couldn't believe this 252 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 3: happened or they didn't know anything about this, And I mean, 253 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 3: I think, you know, news journalists use the power of 254 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 3: story all the time. So I think it's it's something 255 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 3: that some scientists, at least some scientists that I work with, 256 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 3: have started, you know, really latching onto. And some of 257 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 3: them are really great storytellers, really gifted, and so some 258 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 3: people are just gifted storytellers. And if you if you 259 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 3: also happen to be a scientist, then you have a 260 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 3: little bit of an edge there, I think. 261 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: When I mean, I know, you've written a few books, 262 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: but in general terms, and I guess it's going to 263 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: vary from person to person, but like when you want 264 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: to write a book. Of course, we want to write 265 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: something that's reflective ab our thoughts and feelings and stories 266 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: and all of that, and we want to write something 267 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 1: that's congruent with who we are and how we are. 268 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: But at the same time, like you also want to 269 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 1: sell lots of books. Like, if you're going to write 270 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 1: a book and it's going to be, among other things, 271 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: a commercial venture, you want it to be distributed and 272 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 1: sold in bookstores. You want people to read it and 273 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: talk about it and recommend it. So there's a strategic 274 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: there's a strategic and a commercial element as well. Right, 275 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: So when you set out to write something new, do 276 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: you just write the thing that you want to write 277 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 1: about or do you think about what will be attractive 278 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: to an audience. 279 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 3: For the most part, would I would say it's ninety 280 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 3: percent I write something I want to write it about, 281 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 3: but also something that I would want to read. 282 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 2: I read a lot, and I. 283 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 3: Read across all genres, and you know, I read a 284 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 3: lot of nonfiction, and of course I read a lot 285 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 3: of science, but I read a lot of fiction. And 286 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 3: so I always write something that I want to write, 287 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 3: but I always think about, you know, is this something 288 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,919 Speaker 3: I would also want to read. And so you know, 289 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 3: that's always I think in the back of every writer's mind. 290 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 3: Is this something that I would want to read? 291 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 2: Also? 292 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: What about what about the I guess understanding the mind 293 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 1: of the reader, Shelley, Is that just something that we 294 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: that organically evolves over time? Like I know, and this 295 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:47,640 Speaker 1: is very different, But I have about one hundred thousand 296 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 1: followers on social media, and I have this page on 297 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 1: Instagram where I literally write things physically on my whiteboard 298 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,120 Speaker 1: and then I take a photograph of that and I 299 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 1: put that meme, that message, those sentences, like it's generally 300 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:10,160 Speaker 1: somewhere between five words and forty words, but it's handwritten. Now, 301 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 1: if I put that on my social media versus the 302 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: same message that I type, the handwritten message gets about 303 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:23,120 Speaker 1: ten times the traction, but the same words, the exact 304 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: same message. 305 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 2: And it is very interesting, isn't it? 306 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 1: Isn't it? It's like the exact like word, it's the 307 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 1: same words. But here's this is written by Craig left handed, 308 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: messy Craig on a whiteboard. And here's a photo of 309 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:41,360 Speaker 1: the message on the whiteboard. Now here's the same words 310 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: in just a typed post. It doesn't have nearly the 311 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: same engagement or impact, and it doesn't get shared. It's funny, 312 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: what is fact? Yes? 313 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:54,719 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, fascinating. 314 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. 315 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 2: Have you ever asked anyone about that? 316 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: I mean yeah, I mean why that is in fact? 317 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 1: When I when I do post things on that particular platform. 318 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: So that's my incident. It used to be called whiteboard lessons, 319 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: but it's just called Craig Anthony Harpenou right. But but yeah, 320 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,399 Speaker 1: and there's thousands, there's like five thousand of them, so 321 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:22,679 Speaker 1: there's you know, and they've been doing it for years. 322 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:26,159 Speaker 1: But when I put up something that isn't a whiteboard, 323 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:33,199 Speaker 1: people don't like it. They go, where's the whiteboard? Yeah? 324 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:36,159 Speaker 2: You know what? I see your posts come across my feed. 325 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 3: All the time, and they're almost always the whiteboard. I 326 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 3: wonder if there's something about the handwriting that seems more 327 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 3: personal and hurtfelt as opposed to a keyboard. 328 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: Well, I think it's like a human did this. Like 329 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,200 Speaker 1: I don't know, especially in days, especially in times now, 330 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 1: where you're like this is this person generated? Is this? AI? 331 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 1: Is this? Is this? Like? You know, even people ask 332 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,200 Speaker 1: me what program I use for my handwriting because my 333 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: handwriting is actually quite neat, and I go, right. 334 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 3: I, actually, yeah, I did not realize that was your handwriting. 335 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:18,400 Speaker 3: I thought it was a font meant to look like. 336 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, that is literally my handwriting. And then 337 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: I take a photo of the writing on the board 338 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: and then I just it's almost like I bleach it, 339 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 1: so it doesn't it just looks like a white background. 340 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,439 Speaker 1: But the writing is literally my handwriting. So yeah, but 341 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 1: it's just funny. I think of that. I think about 342 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 1: like whenever I'm trying to and whether it's talking or writing. 343 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: And I've written a few books as well. I want 344 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 1: to get my stuff across, but I'm really interested in 345 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: understanding the mindset of the reader so that I can 346 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 1: meet their not the right word, but meet their needs 347 00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: or expectations as well. 348 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 2: Right, that is? 349 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 3: That is a tough question. I think it's hard to understand. 350 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:12,920 Speaker 3: I guess what you're looking for is consensus and readers. 351 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,439 Speaker 3: You know, reading is very personal, and what one person 352 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 3: finds great another person might think is horrible. I read 353 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:24,879 Speaker 3: a lot of book club fiction, and some of it 354 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 3: lands and some of it I'm like, how you know 355 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 3: who recommended this? Because it's I feel like it's a 356 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 3: very personal thing. So but there does seem to be 357 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:40,199 Speaker 3: some consensus around what makes a great book and just 358 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 3: an okay book. 359 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 2: And just a terrible book. And so. 360 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 3: But I don't think that anyone, even the greatest writers, 361 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 3: really have an idea about the mind of the reader. 362 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,399 Speaker 3: And even some of my favorite authors who are like 363 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 3: sort of like you know, automatic buys. If they published 364 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 3: something new, I'm going to go out and get it, 365 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 3: you know. Sometimes I mean, you know, I might like 366 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 3: nine out of ten books, but there's always that one 367 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 3: and I'm like, oh, this is you know, this just 368 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 3: wasn't for me. Well, the mind of you know, trying 369 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 3: to figure out the mind of the reader is a 370 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 3: tricky thing. 371 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: I think, what about what about developing a process like 372 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 1: and not everyone has to have the same process or protocol. 373 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 1: I tend to start with thoughts and I'll just write 374 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:35,919 Speaker 1: like it might be a word, or it might be 375 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:40,959 Speaker 1: an idea, and it might be twenty twenty disparate ideas 376 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: seemingly unrelated, but they're kind of And then I'll write 377 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: a sentence around that idea or two, and then I'll 378 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 1: write a sentence around that other idea or concept, and 379 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: then I'll over time, It's like I've got all these 380 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 1: jigsaw puzzles. I don't even know what the picture is 381 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,159 Speaker 1: going to be, but I've got all these pieces. You know, 382 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:05,679 Speaker 1: it kind of almost forms itself over time. M what 383 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: about you? Do you have a process? 384 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 3: I am what they call in the writing world a pantser. 385 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,879 Speaker 3: So they talk about panthers versus plotters. So plotters are 386 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 3: people who will go through all of the plot points 387 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 3: and outline an entire novel and maybe spend a lot 388 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 3: of time doing research and outlining for you know, six 389 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,640 Speaker 3: months or a year before they sit down and ever 390 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:40,919 Speaker 3: start writing a thing. Where I'm the kind of person that, 391 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 3: you know, maybe I have an idea for something I 392 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 3: want to write, and I noodle on it for a 393 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 3: couple of weeks, and then one day I just sit 394 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:53,440 Speaker 3: down and just start writing. When I wrote the November Molecule, 395 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 3: I wrote it during National Novel Writing Month, which is 396 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:01,679 Speaker 3: the month of November, and I told myself, I'm going 397 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,719 Speaker 3: to write a novel during the month of November, and 398 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,160 Speaker 3: I'm not going to look back. I'm just gonna start 399 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 3: writing and just move forward in the narrative without any rubberneckings. 400 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 3: So no going back and looking at what this character 401 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 3: did or what that character did, because I was what 402 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,160 Speaker 3: I was looking for was a cohesive narrative. And I thought, 403 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 3: if I just moved forward in the story with the 404 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,200 Speaker 3: first draft, maybe I can do that. And so I 405 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 3: wrote the first draft in thirty days and then spent 406 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 3: another I guess six or nine months editing it. Wow, 407 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 3: but not with any not with any outline or anything, 408 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,640 Speaker 3: just some idea in my head of the main character 409 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 3: and sort of you know, the beginning, middle, and the 410 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 3: end I sort of had in my head in certain scenes. 411 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:56,879 Speaker 3: There's a famous story about Kate Chopin that wrote, I 412 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 3: can't remember the name of the novel off the top 413 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 3: of my head, but it was a banned book, and 414 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 3: when she was asked about it, they asked her about 415 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:08,160 Speaker 3: the main character. 416 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 2: It was the Awakening. 417 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 3: That was the name of the novel, The Awakening, and 418 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 3: she they banned the book and they asked her about 419 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 3: the main character, and you know, why did you write 420 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,120 Speaker 3: the character doing that? And she said, she responded, By 421 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 3: the time I knew what she was up to, it 422 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 3: was too late. And so that's somebody that just sat 423 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 3: down at the typewriter and after a while, you kind 424 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 3: of get boxed in because the character kind of takes 425 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 3: on a life of their own, and so they can't 426 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 3: just do or say anything because now you've developed them, 427 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 3: and you've got ten or twelve chapters or fifteen or 428 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 3: twenty chapters, and so you know, there's only certain things 429 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 3: that character. You know, you've kind of built that character, 430 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,239 Speaker 3: and so they kind of they kind of take on 431 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 3: a life of their own. There's times I've looked back 432 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 3: on stuff I've written and I didn't remember writing it. 433 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 3: It was like I was writing in a fugue state, 434 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 3: and I think the character was just then the driver's seat. 435 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: Wow, I wonder if I love that. I'm just thinking now, 436 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:11,400 Speaker 1: like when that author said, you know, it's like by 437 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: the time you know the character emerged or whatever, it's 438 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:19,920 Speaker 1: almost like your subconscious is writing and your your your 439 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: conscious mind isn't even aware of what's going. And then 440 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,400 Speaker 1: by the time it emerges, you know, it's like your 441 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: prefrontal cortex is offline and your your subconscious is just 442 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: opening this this door of wonder and you're like, where 443 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: did that come from? Oh? Because that wasn't even in 444 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: my mind, but it was somewhere. 445 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 2: Right, you know, that's how it happens. 446 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So I'm guessing the etymology of pantherer 447 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,680 Speaker 1: is that flowing by the cd of pants? What is that? 448 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 2: I think? 449 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 3: I think so I don't know the etymology, but I imagine 450 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 3: it's just somebody that that's exactly a sort of flying 451 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 3: by the seat of your pants. So I'm not a 452 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 3: disorganized person, but I am, in my heart a creative 453 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:19,400 Speaker 3: and I think creatives just naturally don't like uh, rules 454 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 3: or you know, I mean, guidelines is a better is 455 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 3: a is a better thing? 456 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 2: For me? 457 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,880 Speaker 3: I wouldn't want to box myself. I would feel boxed 458 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 3: in and maybe a little bit crowded creative, you know, 459 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 3: from a creative standpoint, if I were to. 460 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 2: Outline my work, Well. 461 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 6: I think that that that I'm with you, like, I 462 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 6: think that sometimes that having to work within a box 463 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,880 Speaker 6: or a set structure or a set framework, that's kind 464 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 6: of at odds with creativity because now you've created. 465 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: Boundaries and you're like, fuck the boundaries, Like you know, 466 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: it's like, this is the whole point. This is not real. 467 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:09,160 Speaker 1: This is creativity, This is this is expression. Like there's 468 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: already enough rules outside of my writing. I don't need 469 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 1: rules in my writing as well. 470 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 2: Right, that's exactly right. 471 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 1: Do you they talk about what's that dude who wrote 472 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: or who did all that research on flow has got 473 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 1: a really interesting name. Anyway, it'll come to me. But 474 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,359 Speaker 1: tell me about flow state for writing, if that's a 475 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 1: term that you use or something like. Sometimes I get 476 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: into I get into a flow state, not often, but 477 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 1: sometimes also we're speaking, I will say sometimes I'm sometimes 478 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: I'll do a half day workshop and this sounds weird, 479 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: but you'll get it. It's like it's coming through me, 480 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: not from me. And sometimes sometimes I write and I 481 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 1: feel the same and I feel just and it might 482 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: end up I don't even do anything with it, but 483 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: I have. It's like something is emerging and I've got 484 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,239 Speaker 1: to get it out of my head. And it's like 485 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: I fall into a time vortex where I've been writing 486 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 1: for five minutes and I look up and I've actually 487 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 1: been writing for an hour. Do you get into that space? 488 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 3: Yes, I do absolutely sometimes, And I think lately I've 489 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 3: been doing a lot of revising of something that I'm 490 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 3: working on. But when I sit down to write something new, 491 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 3: especially if it's something that I'm excited about it's a 492 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 3: new scene or you know, it's the ending, and I've 493 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 3: had it in my head and everything has jelled, and 494 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 3: I sit down to write and it just just like 495 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 3: you said, I can't type fast enough, Like I'm thinking 496 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 3: faster than I can actually type. That happens a lot, 497 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 3: and then other days it's like you turn on the 498 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:00,239 Speaker 3: faucet and there's nothing, and then you wonder, you know, 499 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 3: this is something I even know how to do. 500 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I feel like it happens despite me, not 501 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: because of me. Sometimes, you know, yes'ctly creativity is yeah, 502 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 1: and you can't exactly you can't really strategize around it 503 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: because you can't say, well, you know, tomorrow morning at nine, 504 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 1: I'm going to be creative. 505 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 2: It's like, no, you're not right, that's right now, you're. 506 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 1: Actually going to be creative in the car yea, you know, 507 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: when it's completely inconvenient, as you're walking into that Yeah, 508 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: as you're walking into that meeting. 509 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 3: Right or in the shower where we always have you know, 510 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 3: pen and paper. That's the worst. 511 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:47,479 Speaker 2: Everybody talks about that. 512 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 3: I mean, there's been times where I feel like, you know, 513 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 3: I've tried to talk into my phone, like into the 514 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 3: notes or times where I think of something and I 515 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:01,719 Speaker 3: think it's so good, I won't forget it. That is, 516 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 3: never it works out, I always forget it. 517 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: So I read in your bio. I read in your bio, 518 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: is Shelley that you've edited over two hundred scientific manuscripts. 519 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 2: Yes. 520 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 1: Wow, that must be analogous to punching yourself in the face. 521 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 2: Uh. 522 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 5: Yeah, I you know, when I started working with scientists, 523 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 5: I was I'm very much a creative and so and 524 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 5: the and the writing was. 525 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 3: Pretty dry, and I tried at first to sort of, 526 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 3: you know, inject a little bit of creativity. I learned 527 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 3: my lesson really quickly that they just don't publish things 528 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 3: in scientific journals if it's uh, if it's you know, 529 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 3: it sounds like a juicy, good story. They like their dry, 530 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 3: rigid style, especially the journals. And I have edited a 531 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 3: lot of papers on everything from anthrax and various neurotoxins 532 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 3: to malaria to COVID, the worst thing that ever happened 533 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 3: to my scientific My scientific manuscripts on diseases were at 534 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 3: least interesting. And when COVID hit and it was all 535 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 3: over the news, and it was on everyone's lips, and 536 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 3: they started sending me COVID papers. I was like, I 537 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 3: was so burned out from the whole, the whole COVID thing, 538 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 3: and I'm like, I'll read anything, please, can we go 539 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 3: back to malaria or you know, just osmyosis or something 540 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 3: like that. So, yes, lots lots and lots of grants, 541 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 3: lots and lots of scientific manuscripts, and after a while, 542 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 3: even if you're not a PhD scientist, you start to 543 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 3: pick up on the science and learn some things. And 544 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 3: I think when I started twenty years ago, I would 545 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 3: have told you that I was not interested in science 546 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 3: at all, and today I'm very, very interested. I do 547 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 3: a lot of reading on nutrition and exercise science in particular. Wow, 548 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 3: a lot of reading about food and food science, just 549 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 3: you know, in my spirit, in my personal time. Nothing 550 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 3: that I'm editing. 551 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 1: But yeah, now, oh, so many things I want to 552 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 1: talk to you about now. Is that because we spoke 553 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 1: off air and you said you're comfortable to talk about it, 554 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,959 Speaker 1: so you have MS? Am I correct? 555 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 2: That's correct? 556 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 7: Yes, And so is you're interested in You're interested in 557 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 7: nutrition perhaps related to that, like trying to manage your 558 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 7: MS and your health optimally or is it just something 559 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 7: different a little bit. 560 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 3: So even you know, prior to my diagnosis with MS, 561 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 3: and I've had MS for twenty four years, and but 562 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 3: prior to my diagnosis because they ruled it out and 563 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 3: then eight years later I was in the hospital paralyzed 564 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:19,280 Speaker 3: on my left side. And at the time they said, 565 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,279 Speaker 3: you know, we're not sure that you'll walk again, and 566 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 3: if you do it, you might have a lamp And 567 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 3: that was probably the main concern. Even though everything was 568 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,239 Speaker 3: turned off on the left side, things that you don't 569 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:39,440 Speaker 3: think about, like my vocal cords, my eyeball, my di 570 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 3: my diaphragm, like everything on the left side was turned off. 571 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 2: But you know, the leg. 572 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 3: Of course, they want you to be able to walk, 573 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,840 Speaker 3: and so I thought, you know, I need so I 574 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,880 Speaker 3: started physical and occupational therapy, which I did for about 575 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 3: eight months. And I guess that's probably you know, up 576 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:03,279 Speaker 3: until that point, I did a lot reading about macronutrients 577 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 3: and the importance of protein and things like that because 578 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:08,879 Speaker 3: I was working out, lifting a lot of heavy weight 579 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:14,080 Speaker 3: leg pressing eight hundred and sixty five pounds and running 580 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 3: long running a long races, and so I did a 581 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:21,399 Speaker 3: lot of reading about food and. 582 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 2: What's good for the muscles. 583 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 3: But then when I got diagnosed, I would say I 584 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 3: probably stopped eating, for the most part, any kind of 585 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 3: fast food or junk food and pretty much anything that 586 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 3: comes from a package. And so, you know, and kind 587 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:45,359 Speaker 3: of shifted more to a whole foods diet after that. 588 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 3: And then since then I have gotten really interested in 589 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 3: sort of like as I get older, sort of you know, 590 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:58,799 Speaker 3: maintaining healthy blood sugar and cholesterol levels and things like that. 591 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 2: And the science is just. 592 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:08,400 Speaker 1: Yea, keeping inflammation to a minimal minimum. 593 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 2: Right, Yes, that's exactly right. 594 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:13,840 Speaker 1: And how I how I You know, this is a 595 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 1: silly question, but not really. How are you now? Like? 596 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: You look great, you sound great? 597 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:20,840 Speaker 2: Thanks? 598 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 3: I feel great, and I think I do really well. 599 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 3: I'm on so for years, I was on injectables that 600 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 3: I gave myself. 601 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 2: You know. 602 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,839 Speaker 3: Sometimes it was on a daily basis. Other drugs were 603 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 3: three times a week. Now I have an infusion every 604 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:42,320 Speaker 3: six months that sort of knocks out my B cells, 605 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:44,799 Speaker 3: the cells that make antibodies. So I'm on what they 606 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,319 Speaker 3: call a B cell depletion drug. And I've been on 607 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 3: that for about six years and I've done really well. 608 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:55,359 Speaker 2: But it's all I gotta say. 609 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 3: It's it's always sobering to go to the MS client 610 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,279 Speaker 3: because there are a lot of people using walkers or 611 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 3: in wheelchairs, and so I feel like I'm always filled 612 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 3: with you know, gratitude, and sometimes I feel even maybe 613 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:15,360 Speaker 3: a little lucky that you know that I've worked with 614 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 3: scientists and interested in reading science and so have you know, 615 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 3: an advantage I guess that way, you know, navigating the 616 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:28,719 Speaker 3: scientific literature, being able to go into Google scholar and 617 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:32,319 Speaker 3: look up something and if I can't understand it, then 618 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:37,919 Speaker 3: I've got people around me that can. So I don't 619 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 3: I don't take anything for granted, I guess these days. 620 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:46,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, well it's it's twenty four years with MS, and 621 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 1: to be as healthy and functional as you are, you're 622 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:54,319 Speaker 1: doing something right. So that's great. You know what I'm 623 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 1: fascinated in at the moment, I've been opening the door 624 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,560 Speaker 1: on the relationship between I mean, I'll be my PhD 625 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 1: is in neuropsychology, but I'm just fascinated with the way 626 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 1: that our thinking can make us sick. You know, yes, 627 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,400 Speaker 1: and there's so much research around you know, placebos like 628 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 1: our thinking making us well, but just the impact of you, 629 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 1: Like even when you think about the fact that and 630 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:22,400 Speaker 1: we're detering a little bit from the book and the 631 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:27,040 Speaker 1: writing conversation, but you know when you think about when 632 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,799 Speaker 1: you obsess or ruminate on negative things, which a lot 633 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:34,480 Speaker 1: of people do, and there's no criticism in this, just awareness. 634 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,000 Speaker 1: You know, when you're ruminating on negative things, problems that 635 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: might happen in the future, and things that did happen 636 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,239 Speaker 1: all that time ago that we can't undo now, and 637 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,399 Speaker 1: what that person across the road might think of us 638 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 1: or whatever. Right, and it's all understandable human stuff. But 639 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 1: because your body can't tell the difference between what is 640 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,600 Speaker 1: real and what is perceived, so then your body responds 641 00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:01,960 Speaker 1: as though you're actually in a problem. Now. Now you're 642 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,799 Speaker 1: producing adrenaline and cortisol and all of these things, right, 643 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:09,120 Speaker 1: and like just just when you isolate one bit, which 644 00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:13,480 Speaker 1: is cortisol. Cortisol is like cortisole pumping around your body 645 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:15,840 Speaker 1: all day or a lot of the day, which is 646 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,200 Speaker 1: a lot of people because they overthink and they you know, 647 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:23,719 Speaker 1: analysis paralysis, and they're constantly worrying about things that might 648 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:29,400 Speaker 1: happen and literally shutting down their immune system, you know, 649 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 1: creating cellular inflammation. It's like, I truly think that. I mean, 650 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,960 Speaker 1: and I know this is no groundbreaking revelation, but like 651 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,960 Speaker 1: we talk all the time when we're talking about physical health, 652 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:46,880 Speaker 1: obviously we talk about lifestyle and food and exercise and 653 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:51,319 Speaker 1: booze and drugs and sleep and cigarettes. But I think 654 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,920 Speaker 1: maybe more importantly is your ability to have a calm mind, 655 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,800 Speaker 1: you know, to be able, to be hopeful, to be grateful, 656 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,960 Speaker 1: to be you know. And I'm and this is obviously 657 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,680 Speaker 1: easy to said and done, but you have a look 658 00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:08,840 Speaker 1: at the relationship between people, you know, people that you 659 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 1: know that a highly anxious and and constantly doom and 660 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:16,719 Speaker 1: gloom and constantly focusing on that it's not many of 661 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:17,440 Speaker 1: them are healthy. 662 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,319 Speaker 2: That yes, that's exactly right, That's exactly right. 663 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 3: I that is just I've listened to so many podcasts 664 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:34,520 Speaker 3: about that very thing. Andrew Huberman, I guess, is probably 665 00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:37,759 Speaker 3: the last person that I listened to who talked about that. 666 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:43,319 Speaker 3: There are several people that post things on Instagram that, 667 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:47,160 Speaker 3: you know, where they talk about how important gratitude is 668 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 3: and that if you'll just stop, you know, every day, 669 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:52,560 Speaker 3: like if you think you're having a bad day, just 670 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,359 Speaker 3: stop and think of three things that you're grateful for, 671 00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:58,880 Speaker 3: and so I do that all the time. I recently 672 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:04,759 Speaker 3: had a family member who had a serious illness and 673 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:07,360 Speaker 3: it was one of those things where the doctors just 674 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 3: don't really know what was wrong. And I said, but 675 00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:15,160 Speaker 3: you know, you've got some medication. We do have doctors 676 00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:17,640 Speaker 3: that are looking into it, You've got family members that 677 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,120 Speaker 3: are helping out, You've got people that can take care of. 678 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:20,719 Speaker 2: Things at work. 679 00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:23,600 Speaker 3: I mean, we just had so much to be grateful for, 680 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:27,920 Speaker 3: even though it was really, you know, a kind of 681 00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:32,000 Speaker 3: a bad situation at the time. And so I've gotten 682 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:34,640 Speaker 3: into sort of a habit, you know, every time something 683 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:39,240 Speaker 3: bad happens, just taking a step back and checking myself 684 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,480 Speaker 3: and making sure that you know that that gratitude is 685 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:43,040 Speaker 3: always there. 686 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:45,960 Speaker 1: I was. I was in the cafe an hour or 687 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:50,640 Speaker 1: two ago, and I'm always you know, shutting down ideas 688 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:54,040 Speaker 1: thinking and I was, I was thinking about this very thing. 689 00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:57,040 Speaker 1: I was thinking about gratitude. And you know, I've got 690 00:41:57,400 --> 00:41:59,800 Speaker 1: one of my mates is a quadriplegic, and I've spoken 691 00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 1: of him a bit lately, So I apologize to my audience. 692 00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:04,799 Speaker 1: But you know, if you can stand up out of 693 00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 1: a chair, and walk to the door like you and 694 00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,880 Speaker 1: I can. Well, that's amazing. If you can turn on 695 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,640 Speaker 1: a tap and there's cold water, that's amazing. If you 696 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,319 Speaker 1: can press a button then the room gets warm. Well, 697 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,680 Speaker 1: you're privileged, you know. It's like, can you open the 698 00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,680 Speaker 1: fridge and there's food in there? Well, that's a lot 699 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:25,040 Speaker 1: of people, you know. And I was doing a little 700 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:28,799 Speaker 1: bit of research on poverty. So as of twenty twenty four, 701 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:32,880 Speaker 1: nine point two percent of the world's population, seven hundred 702 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:37,319 Speaker 1: million people live on less than two dollars fifteen a day, 703 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:42,319 Speaker 1: so extreme poverty. And about another twenty six percent of 704 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:46,760 Speaker 1: the population live on less than three dollars sixty five, 705 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,719 Speaker 1: so between two dollars fifteen and three sixty five a day. 706 00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:52,480 Speaker 1: So that's over that's thirty five percent. That's more than 707 00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,640 Speaker 1: a third of the people on the planet. So over 708 00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:59,960 Speaker 1: two million, well over two million people live on less 709 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,759 Speaker 1: more than three dollars sixty five US a day. And 710 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:07,480 Speaker 1: when I hear that, Shelley, I want to punch myself 711 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,719 Speaker 1: in the face. When I complain about my bullshit, you know. 712 00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:13,920 Speaker 2: Right right, yes, I hear you. 713 00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:18,040 Speaker 3: I the same the same when I watch the news 714 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,800 Speaker 3: and see you know some of the things that are happening. 715 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:22,720 Speaker 2: I think that exact same thing. 716 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,440 Speaker 3: When I talk to the students and when we actually 717 00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:30,160 Speaker 3: am coming back to the end the news assignment, I 718 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:32,960 Speaker 3: talk about how when you watch the news, it's a 719 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:36,080 Speaker 3: lot of suffering. They don't report anything in the news 720 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:40,960 Speaker 3: that's not suffering. So it's war and natural disasters and 721 00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:46,000 Speaker 3: you know, politics. And I tell the students, you know, 722 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,600 Speaker 3: try not to let these things get in your head 723 00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:54,880 Speaker 3: too much. What I want you to do is, you know, 724 00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:58,640 Speaker 3: when you're reading about these things, keep in mind what 725 00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:04,359 Speaker 3: you can do. You know, I can't personally changed the 726 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,239 Speaker 3: climate for the entire planet, but I can recycle. I 727 00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:14,240 Speaker 3: can purchase, you know, household appliances that are energy efficient. 728 00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,000 Speaker 3: You know, I can turn out the lights. I can 729 00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,000 Speaker 3: you know, I can do things like that. I can't 730 00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:24,600 Speaker 3: stop systemic racism, but I can treat black and brown 731 00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:28,360 Speaker 3: people in my life with respect. I can't do anything about, 732 00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:31,760 Speaker 3: you know, politics, but I can exercise my right to vote, 733 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,360 Speaker 3: you know, things like that, Like you know, start with 734 00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:38,360 Speaker 3: yourself and the people around you. You know, the person 735 00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:42,040 Speaker 3: next to you, and so you know, that's what I 736 00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:45,640 Speaker 3: try to focus on. And I think my grandmother, who 737 00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:49,759 Speaker 3: was a quadriplegic from age thirty until the time that 738 00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:54,120 Speaker 3: she died, probably was the first person who I felt 739 00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:58,120 Speaker 3: like lived that out as you know, as an example 740 00:44:58,200 --> 00:44:58,480 Speaker 3: for me. 741 00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:04,240 Speaker 1: That's amazing. Yeah, I think that that's that very stoic 742 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:10,040 Speaker 1: philosophy of what's in my control. I'll control my controllables. 743 00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:14,520 Speaker 1: You know, what's the best use of my time and 744 00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:18,480 Speaker 1: energy and ability based on my values and who I 745 00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:20,839 Speaker 1: want to be and how I want to be? What 746 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,600 Speaker 1: is the best use like what should I invest energy in? 747 00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:28,879 Speaker 1: Like think about it, and I'm I'm I'm just as 748 00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:34,320 Speaker 1: guilty as anybody at different times, but like wasting energy 749 00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:39,080 Speaker 1: on things that I can't control, you know, and then 750 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:43,920 Speaker 1: coming back to being present, like okay today, like today, 751 00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:48,080 Speaker 1: what's the best use of my energy today based on 752 00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:50,320 Speaker 1: who I am and how I want to be today? 753 00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,160 Speaker 1: You know, I know that's a bit deep, but it's 754 00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:54,840 Speaker 1: almost like a daily check in. 755 00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:56,759 Speaker 2: Yes, I think so. 756 00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:01,640 Speaker 3: I think that's exactly right. You know, you have a platform, 757 00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:07,000 Speaker 3: uh and a lot of reach, So that's an advantage 758 00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:11,440 Speaker 3: that you have. You know, I personally, I don't personally 759 00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:13,879 Speaker 3: have that, but I do have, you know, my classroom, 760 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:19,719 Speaker 3: my students and my kids, you know who I try to, 761 00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:25,360 Speaker 3: you know, set an example for So, you know, I 762 00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:28,240 Speaker 3: was talking to a friend the other day about mistakes 763 00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:32,839 Speaker 3: I made. I always refer to it as my pre 764 00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:36,360 Speaker 3: prefrontal cortex version of Shelley. 765 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:39,800 Speaker 2: Uh. And you know all the things that I did. 766 00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:43,360 Speaker 3: And but you got to give yourself some grace because 767 00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:48,480 Speaker 3: that's before you knew, uh what you what you didn't know? 768 00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:49,759 Speaker 2: I guess. 769 00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:51,439 Speaker 7: Yeah. 770 00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:55,720 Speaker 1: I mean there's like self loathing understandable, but it's not helpful, 771 00:46:56,719 --> 00:47:00,759 Speaker 1: you know. Self awareness on the other hand, great, right, 772 00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:05,880 Speaker 1: I think. So, yes, Now, a couple of things before 773 00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,000 Speaker 1: we go. I read that you taught creative writing at 774 00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:11,719 Speaker 1: Tennessee Stipe Prison. Tell me a little bit about that. 775 00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:16,040 Speaker 3: Well, that was actually my grandmother that taught creative writing 776 00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:21,280 Speaker 3: Tennessee State. Yes, he taught creative writing at the Tennessee 777 00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:26,399 Speaker 3: State Prison. So you know in her you know, from 778 00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:31,640 Speaker 3: her wheelchair, wow and so. And sometimes when I was 779 00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:33,759 Speaker 3: growing up, you know, she would keep in touch and 780 00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:36,359 Speaker 3: people would get out and sometimes you know, we would 781 00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:39,600 Speaker 3: have dinner with someone that she met who had been 782 00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:45,120 Speaker 3: in prison, who got out of prison, and she I 783 00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,600 Speaker 3: think was you know, great example. I think I wrote 784 00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:51,920 Speaker 3: about her not too long ago actually on Instagram about 785 00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:56,000 Speaker 3: how one of the prisoners told her that she didn't 786 00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:58,560 Speaker 3: understand what it was like to be in prison, and 787 00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:01,399 Speaker 3: she wrote them a letter about how you know, her 788 00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:04,320 Speaker 3: body was a prison, that there were things that her body, 789 00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:06,840 Speaker 3: her own body, wouldn't allow her to do, like run 790 00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:11,560 Speaker 3: or hug your kids like she wanted to do. And 791 00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:14,880 Speaker 3: so that you know, people have different kinds of prison, 792 00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:17,920 Speaker 3: and some of those are self imposed, and that you 793 00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:20,239 Speaker 3: can look, you know, at your bars or through them, 794 00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:24,239 Speaker 3: and so you know, there again, you know, back to 795 00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:28,319 Speaker 3: the gratitude. You know, what can you do? And she said, 796 00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:30,360 Speaker 3: you know, you can be an example for other prisoners. 797 00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:35,160 Speaker 3: You can, you know, do the things that you are 798 00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:38,680 Speaker 3: allowed to do in you know where you're at. 799 00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:41,279 Speaker 2: Do what you can with what you have. 800 00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:46,000 Speaker 1: Think about the psychological and emotional prisons we build for ourselves, 801 00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:47,480 Speaker 1: like the fee based prison. 802 00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:48,520 Speaker 2: You know. 803 00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:53,520 Speaker 1: Yes, happy birthday for yesterday. 804 00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:54,600 Speaker 2: Oh thank you. 805 00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:57,759 Speaker 1: I saw it. I thought I was going to comment that. 806 00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:01,240 Speaker 1: I thought, now I'm going to wait until tomorrow. So happy, 807 00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,000 Speaker 1: you know, So twenty nine, how's it feel? 808 00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:04,640 Speaker 7: Right? 809 00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:06,200 Speaker 2: Its awesome? 810 00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:10,840 Speaker 1: Last year in my timies yeah, well thirty is coming up, dude, 811 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:13,920 Speaker 1: so you know, batten down the hatches once you hit 812 00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:17,640 Speaker 1: the big three. Oh hey, we'll say goodbye, affair. But 813 00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:21,080 Speaker 1: so the book is called The November Molecule, Shelley, is 814 00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:25,120 Speaker 1: there anything else you want to open the eyes of 815 00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:32,080 Speaker 1: our audience about website, any anywhere you want to direct people? Now? 816 00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:34,239 Speaker 1: I know you've never done I know you've never done 817 00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:36,920 Speaker 1: a podcast, but what guests do at this point in 818 00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:40,200 Speaker 1: time is they plug their stuff, So feel free. 819 00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:46,480 Speaker 3: Okay, Well, my book Venovano Molecule is available on Amazon. 820 00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:49,919 Speaker 3: If you like thrillers and you like science, I think 821 00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:53,400 Speaker 3: you would really enjoy it. It has won a couple 822 00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:56,839 Speaker 3: of awards, and so I think it's a great read. 823 00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:01,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, perfect, I will I'll put a link to that. 824 00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:06,440 Speaker 1: And I appreciate you. It's so nice talking to you. 825 00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:10,480 Speaker 1: You're such a great communicator. You know, maybe we'll get 826 00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:12,560 Speaker 1: you back at some stage if you're interested, and we 827 00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:16,480 Speaker 1: could maybe do a little writing workshop with you, because 828 00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:18,520 Speaker 1: everyone wants to be able to write better, so. 829 00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:19,880 Speaker 2: I would love that. 830 00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:23,319 Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, that'd be great, Shelly. We'll say goodbye our 831 00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:25,279 Speaker 1: fair but for the moment, thanks so much for being 832 00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:28,239 Speaker 1: on the You project. I appreciate you, all right, thank 833 00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:28,360 Speaker 1: you