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Speaker 1: Welcome to Fear and Greed Q and A where we

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Speaker 1: ask and answer questions about business, investing, economics, politics and more.

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Speaker 1: I'm Sean Aylmer. Managing working capital is absolutely vital for

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Speaker 1: any business. Put simply, working capital is the part of

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Speaker 1: a company's trading that hasn't yet translated into cashlow. It

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Speaker 1: tells us plenty about the health of a company and

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Speaker 1: the way its business operates. Every year, the team at

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Speaker 1: mcgar nickel Advisory release their Working Capital Report, revealing how

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Speaker 1: much cash is locked up within Australian companies and how

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Speaker 1: they stuck up against the rest of the world. Jason

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Speaker 1: Ireland and Sean Wiles are partners at mcgart nickel Advisory

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Speaker 1: and co authors of the thirteenth annual Working Capital Report.

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Speaker 1: Mcgar nichol is a great supporter of this podcast. Jason,

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Speaker 1: welcome back to Fear and Greed.

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Speaker 2: Thank Sean.

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Speaker 1: Great to be and Sean, welcome back.

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Speaker 3: H Sean.

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Speaker 1: Firstly, congratulations thirteen years on the Working Capital Report is

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Speaker 1: quite an effort. Let's start with have you, Sean talk

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Speaker 1: us through some of the headline results, how working capital

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Speaker 1: cycles have changed over the last year, but even over

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Speaker 1: the longer term.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks Sean, we took the opportunity this year to

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Speaker 3: expand our research. I feel like we looked at thirteen

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Speaker 3: sectors this year, covering close to three hundred asx five

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Speaker 3: hundred companies, so sort of lifted the sample base. That

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Speaker 3: translates to over to trillion in market cap, so quite

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Speaker 3: a meaningful sample size just on that metric. And what

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Speaker 3: we saw this year, Sean, at the headline level was

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Speaker 3: that Australian businesses put a lot of focus on and

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Speaker 3: effort into managing their working capital in twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 3: In fact, companies in eleven of the thirteen sectors we

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Speaker 3: covered shortened the length of their networking capital cycles, so

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Speaker 3: quite a strong bias towards strong performance around working capital

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Speaker 3: management this year. And we saw i'd say the most

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Speaker 3: interesting point around all of that. Whereas in twenty twenty

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Speaker 3: four improvement was driven by companies paying their suppliers more slowly,

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Speaker 3: they flipped the dial this year and focused more on

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Speaker 3: better inventory management and better billings and collection management. So

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Speaker 3: Jason and I often talk about this. That's a big

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Speaker 3: tick in the box I think for Australian businesses and

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Speaker 3: a much more sustainable approach to managing working capital.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Jason, if you are working capital days means your

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Speaker 1: people are releasing money cash flow eight point two billion

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Speaker 1: dollars in fact in locked up cash. Once you went

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Speaker 1: through these companies, I'm interested in kind of the large caps,

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Speaker 1: the mid market, the smaller operators. Are they all the same?

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Speaker 1: Actually I went through some of the data there and

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Speaker 1: for example, in the same categories, you can have huge

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Speaker 1: differences in terms of working day cycles. But I'm kind

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Speaker 1: of pushing the SME market.

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Speaker 3: Really, yes, there.

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Speaker 2: Is huge difference, no doubt. And there's a big variance

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Speaker 2: in the size of the company that's in the listed

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Speaker 2: sample anyway, so you can, and the report looks at

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Speaker 2: each company that we use in the sample, so you can,

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Speaker 2: if you're reading the report, you can match yourself against

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Speaker 2: a company of similar size. But let's assume, though, however,

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Speaker 2: that the ASX listed entities are maybe larger than the

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Speaker 2: ones that aren't AX listed, and so those smaller SMME

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Speaker 2: market are suppliers to these entities. And as Sean said,

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Speaker 2: this year, unlike last year, they were paid more quickly,

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Speaker 2: they were still paid a little bit slower than you

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Speaker 2: would like, so you still saw the larger companies shifting

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Speaker 2: the cash flow load to smaller companies if we assume

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Speaker 2: that's the right categorization of a supplier to an AX

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Speaker 2: listed So that means that those smaller companies just have

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Speaker 2: to also be really good at cash and working capital management.

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Speaker 2: They also have to be really good at all of

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Speaker 2: their processes. So Sean talked about how the processes for

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Speaker 2: collecting and managing inventory had improved at that larger end

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Speaker 2: of town. Well, all companies really need to focus on

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Speaker 2: cash flow. In fact, more so those SME companies need

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Speaker 2: to be focused on cash flow because sometimes they're at

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Speaker 2: the behest of those larger entities who are deciding and

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Speaker 2: changing how long they're going to take to pay them.

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Speaker 2: They have to be really good at it.

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Speaker 1: Sean, what about sector BI sector, I mean, Jason kind

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Speaker 1: of alluded to it, but are there some better than others?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Sean that the standout sector we saw this year

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Speaker 3: was agriculture, food and beverage, typically a sector that carries

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Speaker 3: a very big working capital load, and the numbers still

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Speaker 3: show that, but in terms of year on year movement,

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Speaker 3: it had the biggest improvement in twenty twenty five. It

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Speaker 3: was close to three weeks taken out of their networking

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Speaker 3: capital cycles, so again a significant shift, and with health

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Speaker 3: and age care as another key sector, they were the

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Speaker 3: two that we saw. They were able to shorten the

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Speaker 3: length of their networking capital cycle by a week or more.

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Speaker 3: And Jason and I talk about these metrics in days

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Speaker 3: for a reason, and the days sometimes sound quite small

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Speaker 3: in isolation, but that incremental improvement for businesses across a

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Speaker 3: sample like this actually, as you said, Sean, converts to

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Speaker 3: a really big cash flow impact. Eight point two billion

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Speaker 3: dollars of cash release this year isn't insignificant. So agrifood

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Speaker 3: and beverage. We saw a big release in inventry as

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Speaker 3: a key driver, and construction was another industry that fared well.

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Speaker 3: Again a sector that we often work in. It's got

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Speaker 3: a very high working capital load or complexity around its

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Speaker 3: working capital cycle, but we saw the shortest cycle since

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty one in that sector, and it was really

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Speaker 3: driven by what I was saying before, better focus on

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Speaker 3: customer management, particularly around the billing cycle. The two sectors

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Speaker 3: that we saw at the other end of the scale

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Speaker 3: were communications and energy. But I thought interestingly about energy,

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Speaker 3: they actually improved most of their metrics. They just passed

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Speaker 3: on the improvements to their supply base and some so

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Speaker 3: they they'll paint their supplies.

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Speaker 1: Very generous of them.

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Speaker 3: That's right. You've got something out of the utilities companies

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Speaker 3: for once, which is great.

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Speaker 1: That three weeks is quite phenomenal. I mean, if you've

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Speaker 1: got a fortnightly pay run that suddenly you've got all

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Speaker 1: this cash there that you didn't have a year ago.

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Speaker 1: Is that or am I reading that wrong?

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Speaker 3: No, that's the right interpretation. I think Jason and I

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Speaker 3: talk about agri particularly, is you know, there's a there's

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Speaker 3: a lot of differences across companies depending on what sort

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Speaker 3: of produce they are dealing with or products that they

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Speaker 3: are selling. But we saw a real strong and big

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Speaker 3: release in their inventory load this year which really drove

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Speaker 3: that improvement.

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Speaker 1: I am going to just gave a bit further on that.

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Speaker 1: Like I looked at a couple of ax companies in

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Speaker 1: that sector, and you know, I am naming names, but

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Speaker 1: without discussing which was good and which was bad. If

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Speaker 1: you compare Ingham's to Treasury Wine estates, right, different products obviously,

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Speaker 1: but hugely different working capital cycles. Is that a sector thing?

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Speaker 2: Is it?

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Speaker 1: I'm not really trying to highlight anyone good or bad here.

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Speaker 1: I'm just interested in, Jason, is it a sector thing,

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Speaker 1: is it a company thing?

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Speaker 2: What is it? I think for all, regardless of your

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Speaker 2: size or your sector, it's about getting your working capital

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Speaker 2: cycle as good as you think it can be, so

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Speaker 2: just always will be. You know, think about those two.

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Speaker 2: One of their products lasts very long and the other

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Speaker 2: one doesn't, and so you have a very different inventory

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Speaker 2: management cycle between those two. So what we're always saying is, yes,

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Speaker 2: compare within your sector that try and pair against yourself.

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Speaker 2: How much infantry do you think you should hold, which

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Speaker 2: ideal for you and how much and how long do

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Speaker 2: you think you should be collecting or paying. So it's

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Speaker 2: about finding your own sweet spot. And what we try

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Speaker 2: and do when we help companies is we actually look

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Speaker 2: at the best of their own performance over time and

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Speaker 2: see what we're doing right then, and when it was

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Speaker 2: the worst, what we're doing what went wrong then, and

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Speaker 2: so we try and bring the worst that variance between

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Speaker 2: the best and the worst much closer that you just

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Speaker 2: get at.

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Speaker 1: Humming, Jason, staying with you, how much of this is

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Speaker 1: part of the economic cycle. So business conditions, according to

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Speaker 1: your report have picked up a bit, but i'd imagine

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Speaker 1: when business conditions are better, people are more likely to

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Speaker 1: pay on time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know what we're going to say

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Speaker 2: about this, because we've been doing this for thirteen years.

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Speaker 2: We are self confessed working capital and cash flow nerds.

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Speaker 2: We will say cash is always important. Sean's often already

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Speaker 2: talked about how much we talk about this. It really

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Speaker 2: is a bit sad. But yes, I think that conditions

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Speaker 2: have been tough throughout twenty five. You can see in

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Speaker 2: our sample that there's been a bit of an improvement.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people got more revenue, and some were

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Speaker 2: able to even turn that revenue into more profit despite

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Speaker 2: cost pressure. But I don't think we're calling this the

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Speaker 2: end of the difficulty in economic conditions. I think we'll

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Speaker 2: see a continued, hopefully slow improvement over time. But as

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Speaker 2: I said, cash will always be vital, good or bad,

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Speaker 2: but particularly in tougher times, and you alluded to it before,

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Speaker 2: if you look at the difference between the best and

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Speaker 2: the worst performance.

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Speaker 3: Even within sectors.

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Speaker 2: Leaving aside the conversation we just had about vast differences

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Speaker 2: between companies, but just within sectors, huge difference at least

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Speaker 2: eighty days difference between the best and the worst eighty

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Speaker 2: days almost three months difference in a working capital cycle.

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Speaker 2: So what it shows us is that the companies that

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Speaker 2: work at this can get a massive competitive advantage even

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Speaker 2: within their sector. And who doesn't want more cash? Who

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Speaker 2: doesn't want to, as you said, convert your trading into

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Speaker 2: cash flow faster? And so you can see, you can

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Speaker 2: look and you can listen to us. Cash flow and

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Speaker 2: working capital management is a science and a process. It's

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Speaker 2: not an art where accountants we're way from artists. This

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Speaker 2: is about processes. This is about getting things right and

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Speaker 2: knowing what you're trying to achieve and knowing within your

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Speaker 2: team what your part is to play in working capital management.

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Speaker 2: And if you get that right, you're so far ahead

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Speaker 2: of your competitors because not everyone is focusing on it

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Speaker 2: when they're focusing on other things in their business.

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Speaker 1: Sean, how do we compare Australia in terms of work

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Speaker 1: and capital performance versus the rest of the world?

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Speaker 3: Should I I'd give us straining companies a solid a

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Speaker 3: this year and I think we've seen a trend in this.

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Speaker 3: On average, Australian companies stack up well. They collect from

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Speaker 3: their customers faster, they pay their supplies faster, so that

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Speaker 3: net customer supplier cycle across most Australian businesses and definitely

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Speaker 3: across the sample that we looked at, is shorter when

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Speaker 3: you compare it to US counterparts, the European and Asian counterparts.

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Speaker 3: So we manage that part of the cycle, or tend

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Speaker 3: to manage that part of the cycle really well compared

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Speaker 3: to international businesses as it expect sewn. I think where

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Speaker 3: Australian companies still lag the other sectors is in inventory management.

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Speaker 3: But a lot of that you talk to some of

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Speaker 3: the some of the disparity, but a lot of that's

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Speaker 3: sort of baked into the way Australian companies need to

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Speaker 3: do business and need to manage their inventory wade. They

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Speaker 3: often have to carry more inventory than their international counterparts

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Speaker 3: because they're further away from their supplies and they're further

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Speaker 3: away from their customers. So that vast geographical spread does

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Speaker 3: play into some of the metrics which are hard to avoid.

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Speaker 3: And the lower population density of Australia also plays into

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Speaker 3: that as well. So if you're a distributor, a manufacturer distributor,

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Speaker 3: a lot of companies in the Australian economy do a

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Speaker 3: lot of the things across their working capital cycle and

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Speaker 3: don't rely on as many other sort of counterparts or

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Speaker 3: stakeholders as part of that. So they're managing the whole

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Speaker 3: cycle end to end that they're often going to have

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Speaker 3: to carry a little bit more inventory than their international

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Speaker 3: counterparts that are much closer to the people that they're servicing.

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Speaker 1: Chasing the takeaway from the thirteenth year of this report,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you've probably given it to us already, but

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Speaker 1: give it to us once more.

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Speaker 2: I think it is Sean. It's about getting your processes

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Speaker 2: right because you can just differentiate yourself. So regardless of

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Speaker 2: economic conditions, you should be focused on cash flow. But

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Speaker 2: even when you are even more so when margins are tight,

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Speaker 2: focus on cash flow. And you know what I think

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Speaker 2: is a testament to probably the coverage of the Fear

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Speaker 2: and Greed Show because this we talk about working capital

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Speaker 2: reports every year on this show. Look at how well

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Speaker 2: the improvement is throwing is flying through the Australian market.

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Speaker 2: You can get it, you can get it right. You

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Speaker 2: can make a big improvement with with with focuses on process.

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Speaker 1: Jason Sewan, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed.

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Speaker 3: Thanks Sean, Thank you.

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Speaker 1: That was Jason Island and Sewn Wiles's partners at mcgrah nicol,

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Speaker 1: a great supporter of this podcast. I'm Sean Almer, and

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Speaker 1: this is Fear and Greed Q and DA