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Speaker 1: Professor Jeremy Jamison. Welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for having me bow. This is awesome, so

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Speaker 2: I'm glad to be here. Have some questions.

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Speaker 3: I have been looking forward to this for a couple

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Speaker 3: of months and it's been tricky to pin you, Darren,

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Speaker 3: because you're a busy boy. You are the chair of

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Speaker 3: the Department of Psychology at the University of Rochester, and

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Speaker 3: you have a real life with kids, and you live

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Speaker 3: in a different time zone for me.

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Speaker 1: But you featured in.

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Speaker 3: My book and I was actually I was just doing

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Speaker 3: the audio recording of my second book yesterday and rereading

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Speaker 3: all this stuff where I mentioned about you and some

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Speaker 3: of your early experiments, right, because I think your work

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Speaker 3: on stress is really, really quite important. But before we

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Speaker 3: get into it, my epiphany around stress and resilience happened

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Speaker 3: after I went through combat survival and Resistance to interrogation

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Speaker 3: training in the military, which was ten days of pretty

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Speaker 3: hard core stuff.

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Speaker 1: But I realized about.

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Speaker 3: A week after it, something happened to me that would

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Speaker 3: normally have caused me a bit of stress.

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Speaker 1: And it was just like water off a duck's back.

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Speaker 3: And then again something else happened and the same thing,

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Speaker 3: and then I started asking some of the other guys

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Speaker 3: on course if they had noticed anything similar, and they

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Speaker 3: all said yes. And that's when I had my first

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Speaker 3: epiphany because I was already had done a master's and

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Speaker 3: exercise science, so understood about exercise and it's basically the

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Speaker 3: stress that causes adaptation, right, And then I actually thought, well,

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Speaker 3: maybe psychological stress seems to be of the same nature

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Speaker 3: in terms of adaptive responses. Before we unpacked, that was

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Speaker 3: there a point in your life where you had a

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Speaker 3: little bit of an epiphany around stress and high people,

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Speaker 3: particularly how they view stress.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I kind of got into this from my own

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Speaker 2: experiences with athletics, so I never went through any trade

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Speaker 2: that's intensus what you went through. But playing football, so

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Speaker 2: American football, not like soccer. Yeah, so I played football

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Speaker 2: in college. I played football there, and I noticed that

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Speaker 2: my teammates would have this. They'd be really excited, really

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Speaker 2: ended up before games, and it's just like, we gotta

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Speaker 2: get up for this, And we totally knew that you

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Speaker 2: have to be stressed, you have to really experience stress

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Speaker 2: to be able the maximus that you're doing on the field.

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Speaker 2: But in the classroom, these same people would be going

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Speaker 2: to test me thing. I'm so nervous and free doubt,

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Speaker 2: like can you help me? Like it's the same, like

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Speaker 2: this is a game, Like think about what you're doing

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Speaker 2: right now? Was a safe thing in that different kind

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Speaker 2: of stress response that we have, like this kind of

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Speaker 2: approach orange response versus in the voice warning response, it's

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Speaker 2: challenge for threat. It can be really curious about that,

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Speaker 2: And that's kind of the big rabbit hole I went into,

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Speaker 2: and that's what ended me here m hm. All from

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Speaker 2: like just observing what if my teammates did in one

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Speaker 2: setting versus another. And that's maybe a so psychologist because

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Speaker 2: we study situations, how situations influence what we do. In

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Speaker 2: my particular background is studying that from more biological and

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Speaker 2: neuroscience perspective. But it's not I don't think what I

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Speaker 2: do is groundbreaking. It's always been there in society. It's

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Speaker 2: always been there everywhere. Like to innovate, to do anything

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Speaker 2: that's pushing your boundaries. So do anything that's going to

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Speaker 2: be truly creative, you need to be stressed. And we

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Speaker 2: just villainize the process so much that those things are

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Speaker 2: orange around, avoiding it, his orange round, reducing it. But

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Speaker 2: sometimes you kind of need it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, I look at you know what I think

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Speaker 3: would help everything if we just bond the word stressed

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Speaker 3: and replaced it with a rousal.

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Speaker 2: Tell that to a twelve year old boy.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, that's right, you know exactly, And I have

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Speaker 3: used that and it does get it.

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Speaker 1: It does get some giggles. So maybe I'm not the.

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Speaker 3: First to suggest this and then then go, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 3: that's a shit idea.

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Speaker 2: We first saw their stress sort of reinterpretations, reapraisals, like

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Speaker 2: the reimagine what stress can be. We called it arousal rebraisal.

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Speaker 2: We didn't in a community college and high schools. We

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Speaker 2: got all these chuckles like why are you guys lapping?

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Speaker 2: Like the kid took some kids, like some like eleven

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Speaker 2: year olds like come here when you say that, we're

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Speaker 2: not thinking about stressed, So to stop saying that word,

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Speaker 2: Like okay, cool kid. But that's it goes to this

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Speaker 2: idea that we use a lot of psychology is that

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Speaker 2: when you're trying to orient these approaches, try to help

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Speaker 2: people understand stress or understand like the regulation of it.

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Speaker 2: I know you're talking to and so eight is really important.

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Speaker 2: And so we build out these these tools, build these

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Speaker 2: methods if not a one size fits all, like nothing's

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Speaker 2: gonna work the same way for anybody. Yeah, and that's

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Speaker 2: a that's a pretty good example. Yeah. Smartly going back

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Speaker 2: to the name boy, getting the media to stop talking

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Speaker 2: about stress as if this is the one thing that's

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Speaker 2: going to kill you would be beautiful because people can

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Speaker 2: learn how to understand what is adapted. Was now that

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Speaker 2: what is the signal that this is wrong, this is normative?

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Speaker 2: That would be wonderful. My entire research program would be useless.

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Speaker 2: It had been thrilled if me you start talking about

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Speaker 2: stress is bad.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because I've often talked about the good, the bad,

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Speaker 3: and the ugly of stress, and you talk about the good,

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Speaker 3: the bad, and the useful of stress, which I really

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Speaker 3: like that that whole idea of useful and and I

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Speaker 3: think anybody listening to this, you know, if they're to

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Speaker 3: think about their biggest achievement in their life, no doubt

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Speaker 3: it would involve stress in being out of your comfort zone. Right,

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Speaker 3: And that's that's obviously the useful stuff. I think what

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Speaker 3: might be really quite useful here for the listeners is

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Speaker 3: for you to explain the biopsychosocial model of stress to

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Speaker 3: people in Layman's terms.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a model that we work off of

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Speaker 2: in psychophysiology in most regulation research, but it's also the

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Speaker 2: major modic model of stress and medical science. It's those

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Speaker 2: hospitals that fully endorse this viewpoint. This is how we're

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Speaker 2: treating patients now in America. And biopsycho is a big word.

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Speaker 2: It sounds complicated for really to understand the stress response.

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Speaker 2: It's not just in your body, that's a biopart the

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Speaker 2: psychological part that's your psychological prophecy is a person, there's

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Speaker 2: also your social environment, and we get stressor. The idea

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Speaker 2: is that stressors are not stress, The stressor are demand.

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Speaker 2: We're faced with. This could be a job interview, this

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Speaker 2: could be an exam, It could be something asking you

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Speaker 2: on a date, be anything that's a stressor is pushing

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Speaker 2: out of homeostasis, and now you have to address this stressor.

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Speaker 2: And the next up of the process is that we're

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Speaker 2: marshaling cognitve appraisals. Our brains are usually doing this kind

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Speaker 2: of under the surface automatically in we're wayne do I

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Speaker 2: have the resources to address this demand? And so an

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Speaker 2: easy examples or exam, so student has an exam, They

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Speaker 2: go Okay, I see a question. Wait, no, this go

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Speaker 2: in and know this. We see a few more questions.

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Speaker 2: Oh shoot, I studied the wrong thing. Now all of

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Speaker 2: a sudden, the demands are outweighing the resources and I

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Speaker 2: feel like I can't do this, and that response, as

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Speaker 2: we call that response, when the demands are greater than

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Speaker 2: the resources we have, we get threatened. This is a

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Speaker 2: kin to anxiety. But the issue with our stress systems

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Speaker 2: is that they're evolved to be optimized. For about twenty

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Speaker 2: thirty thousand years ago, those stressors were usually physical, and

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Speaker 2: so if we felt the demands are our raising our response,

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Speaker 2: we may get hurt, like we might be have harm

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Speaker 2: code to us. So our body's doing things to protect us.

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Speaker 2: So we say that we're threatened. It's not maladaptive. It

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Speaker 2: was very very adaptive in the setting, just that nowadays

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Speaker 2: most stressors are social. Most times the defeat is social defeat.

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Speaker 2: It's losing social status, it's getting negative evaluative exam or

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Speaker 2: job interview or talk, whatever it is. That's not most

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Speaker 2: stressors that we were facebook and evolution to pass. So

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Speaker 2: that response kind of leads all this to this massive

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Speaker 2: biological account scathed of trying to protect the individual you're

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Speaker 2: trying to survive. But we kind of don't need to

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Speaker 2: do that response nowadays. So the other side of that

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Speaker 2: coin is that we get to that exam and it's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I've sending this, I know this material I studied. I'm like,

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Speaker 2: well rested. Now I can see that I have the

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Speaker 2: resources to address this task and your bodies are great.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna give you the energy to do this. So

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Speaker 2: increase herd rate what you're deilding, more oxygen around your body, dilation,

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Speaker 2: blood vessels, more auctions going your brain in the ball, cormones,

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Speaker 2: these things Athletes get banned for a long time for taking.

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Speaker 2: But you have because you're now in this approach oranged state,

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Speaker 2: and you take them the stressor. And the cool thing

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Speaker 2: about those responses is that these challenge approach when a

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Speaker 2: stress response, because once the stressor is done, you go

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Speaker 2: back to new states. It's really fast, and so you

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Speaker 2: turn it off and now you're backed down from normal

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Speaker 2: threat stays. It's kind of kicks around for a while,

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Speaker 2: cortosols a half like for an hour.

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Speaker 3: This This is this is massive for people, right, Is

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Speaker 3: that under standing of that you're talking to here about

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Speaker 3: the biology or the biological response of threat and challenge.

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Speaker 3: And and you know, when I read a bunch of papers,

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Speaker 3: some of yours included on this, it just.

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Speaker 1: Made so much sense.

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Speaker 3: So that challenge response that we talked about where you're

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Speaker 3: leaning in you which we talk about approaching psychology, and

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Speaker 3: I think the delayed person leaning to it right.

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Speaker 2: Where I lovely. I love that terminalgy. I absolutely love that.

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Speaker 2: I think that's the you're describing that response.

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Speaker 3: And and what but the important thing that you mentioned

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Speaker 3: that involves the hormones adrenaline and nora adrenaline, which over

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Speaker 3: in your side of the pond you call epinephrin and

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Speaker 3: no epineffron.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And but to your point, the half life.

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Speaker 3: Of those is well, I think it's a minute to

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Speaker 3: two minutes of of those chemicals.

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Speaker 2: It's pretty queer. Yeah, feel like so if you look

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Speaker 2: at d H g H a d hydro at be

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Speaker 2: interesting day. Yeah, it's the antabubble clip of cortisol. And

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Speaker 2: the one reason zon't particulars from the adrenal glands. Those

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Speaker 2: have a better correlate so adrenaline nor adrenaline. So these

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Speaker 2: are like really basic core stress world. These are those things.

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Speaker 2: You're gonna get those on s am max's activation. They're

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Speaker 2: gonna grow. Yes, with cortisol, it's an ah PA process,

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Speaker 2: So you're bringing another stress system in that. It's kind

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Speaker 2: of kind of racking the anabolic effects processes in course

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Speaker 2: if it's a bad rap. But you're gonna see increases

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Speaker 2: in corrizo any kind of stress date in course, I

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Speaker 2: mean corsal response to designed to help help us help

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Speaker 2: individual like literally live best they can live and survive

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Speaker 2: the next day. But we see a lot of the

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Speaker 2: stress world corrisol is bad and yeah, and adrenaline is

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Speaker 2: good and PG is good. So we moved a little

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Speaker 2: bit more away from just the corso is bad, more

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Speaker 2: of an animal balance. Yeah, so the ratio of coal

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Speaker 2: ratio sacer course is kind of good at that.

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Speaker 1: And good luck surviving with our cortisol.

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Speaker 2: Could yeah, seriously take that from a bag like that

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Speaker 2: can happen.

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Speaker 3: I think I think it's worth why just just for

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Speaker 3: our audience, who you know, may not be familiar with

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Speaker 3: some of this terminal term terminology, just to give them

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Speaker 3: the very quick, dirty definition you mentioned the sum axis

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Speaker 3: sympathetic adrenal middulory. Everybody listening knows that is the fight

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Speaker 3: or flight response, all right, And then h P A

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Speaker 3: axis and and you know, you know we could we can,

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Speaker 3: you could pick me up for the technicalities. But HP

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Speaker 3: A axis, hypothalmus, bituitary, adrenal glands, cortisol and and to

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Speaker 3: your point, when you're stressed, yes, cordisol will be released

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Speaker 3: and it acts again to to to make it understandable for.

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Speaker 1: The lay person. It's it's like a swat team.

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Speaker 3: It acts with adrenaline, NORAH, adrenaline, EF, nor beneforn and

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Speaker 3: e ata to help you to meet the challenge.

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Speaker 1: But to your point earlier about physical and social.

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Speaker 3: You know, when your hunter gatherer key of man ancestor

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Speaker 3: was startled.

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Speaker 1: By a lion, he got all of.

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Speaker 3: These responses right that that very quickly mobilized them to

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Speaker 3: be able to run away in this case or fight

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Speaker 3: in others. And and that action, that physical action contributes

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Speaker 3: to coming back to homeostasis. Right to that, you know,

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Speaker 3: essentially the stress hormones are being used up with the

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Speaker 3: physical action. But when a lot of our stressors are social,

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Speaker 3: we're not moving our bodies at all, and so then

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Speaker 3: that's when these hormones and cortisole comes over the top

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Speaker 3: and the end if it's persistent stressor that's when you

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Speaker 3: get into bad juju, isn't It's that hyper cortus albia,

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Speaker 3: when too much of a good thing turns into a

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Speaker 3: pretty disastrous thing. That that's kind of my simplified view

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Speaker 3: of the stress universe. Anything to pick up our odd too.

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Speaker 2: That's not simplified. That's that's kind of exactly what we

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Speaker 2: think about in terms of the research world about stress.

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Speaker 2: And when you see people talk about this and maladaptive stress,

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Speaker 2: stress it or maladapt response. It may be maladaptive in

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Speaker 2: that context, it's not now adaptive to the organism in general.

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Speaker 2: If you really live in a dangerous environment and you're threatened,

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Speaker 2: you probably should be aware of sources sup horror because

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Speaker 2: it's going to help you survive. And that's kind of it.

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Speaker 2: When we forget about what stress means, it's more of

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Speaker 2: when we talk about normal stressors, chronic stressors, or things

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Speaker 2: that you kind of can't control. I think it's like trauma. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: And so that's the really important thing is understanding the

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Speaker 2: stressors themselves. And so when you say you go back home,

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Speaker 2: your stations really quickly. When your challenge you do. When

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Speaker 2: you take on the challenge and you're amped up, you

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Speaker 2: kind of just you take it on. Whether you've it's gone.

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Speaker 2: Then you you're back down home. Your stace is nice.

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Speaker 2: You don't have an alsac lade from that. You're surviving.

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Speaker 2: You're kind of good to go. It's it's more than thinking.

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Speaker 2: I guess the analogies your lights like like a light bulb,

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Speaker 2: you got to turn it off and you need light,

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Speaker 2: you leave the room, turn it off. If the lights

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Speaker 2: the whole time and you're worried about being dark, that

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Speaker 2: light's kind of bumps on a burnout at some point,

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Speaker 2: and that's when you see the chronic activation of these

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Speaker 2: systems that things that can be useful in a short

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Speaker 2: term where they stay on for a long time. It's

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Speaker 2: not good. And it's psychologically when you start building in

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Speaker 2: the rumination prohisies, you building cantasterzation to that you're gonna

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Speaker 2: start worrying about being stressed. It's like the stress of

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Speaker 2: being stressed. You dam you didn't have the self?

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, absolutely, Can you just explain there's another term

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Speaker 3: to use that that's really important that a lot of

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Speaker 3: lay people won't be familiar with, but the concept of

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Speaker 3: alistatic load because it's pretty central to.

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Speaker 1: When people talk about stress and bad stress and Bernart

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Speaker 1: and all of that. Really, under the hood does alistatic load?

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Speaker 2: So what is it? Yeah? We so the modelside usually

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Speaker 2: work off of you mentioned these biopsychosocial models. We're looking

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Speaker 2: at the interactions between how our psychological proceeds are driving

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Speaker 2: our acute stress response howls that load. It's an accumulation

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Speaker 2: like if you don't brush your teeth, your communsi a

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Speaker 2: plagu is going to lead to like tooth to key.

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Speaker 2: So like that accumulation that process stresses like the plant,

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Speaker 2: it's going to accumulate. And if you accumulates in a

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Speaker 2: bad way, they people these recursive feedback loops that are

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Speaker 2: just gonna get worse and worse and worse. And so

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Speaker 2: you see something that was managible or something that was

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Speaker 2: perminative at a start can move towards something and that

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Speaker 2: is not normative and that it's not manageable. And so

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Speaker 2: this is why things like anxiety have been the best

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Speaker 2: produced of like the pressure long term because anxiety, discrimination, rumination, workation,

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Speaker 2: more anxiety, and eventually you're going to get depressed, and

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Speaker 2: that's that's a bummer you call it that way.

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Speaker 1: So no, no, no, no, absolutely, it's utally important. So

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Speaker 1: let's not talk about at preisl and reappraisal.

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Speaker 3: So we we've mentioned a pre asoll is whether you're

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Speaker 3: viewing something as a potential challenge or a potential threat,

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Speaker 3: and that then dictates your how your body engages, whether

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Speaker 3: it leans in or you go away, and and and

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Speaker 3: it then affects the physiology. Now you've done a lot

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Speaker 3: lot of work on reaprisol maybe and and talk about

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Speaker 3: some of the early studies that you did with students

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Speaker 3: with upcoming exams and and and rethinking butterflies this whole area.

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Speaker 3: Talk to us about that, because that's pretty cold stuff.

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Speaker 2: That was such a fun study that I am so

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Speaker 2: fortunate from my post art we mentor Wendy Mendez, who

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Speaker 2: is like she is one of the biggest name, the

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Speaker 2: biggest people in all stress research, Like I would I

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Speaker 2: would suggest anybody listening to this go.

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Speaker 4: Read Wendy's research, like right now, Wendy Mendez. Wendy Mendez. Yes,

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Speaker 4: she is like the biocycle social queen, Like, oh cool.

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Speaker 4: Everything I do has come from her, I'm fully hear student.

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Speaker 4: The study was I'm done in her lab at Harvard

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Speaker 4: when I was a post doc. But the fun thing

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Speaker 4: about the study was that a lot of the people

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Speaker 4: in VOM say, these are Harvard under graduates who are

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Speaker 4: really motivated people. These people are I don't know. They've

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Speaker 4: gotten to Harvard, they've achieved things that they can achieve, but.

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Speaker 2: They're taking the geries and now I'm going to graduate

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Speaker 2: school in Superban's lab, and we had them go through

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Speaker 2: just a simple asking about Hey, you don't mean he

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Speaker 2: was about this test.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, check Jeremy. Just just just explain the gr for

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Speaker 1: the listeners to the state.

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Speaker 2: It's like in the US, it's like a standardized test

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Speaker 2: for like going to graduate school.

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Speaker 1: So Hi, sta high stays exactly.

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Speaker 2: Your high sex test is a standardized test. It's like,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, I best at is like our high

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Speaker 2: school version. The yous are a grad school version. So

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Speaker 2: in this study, we took people who were prearented the giory.

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Speaker 2: They're set to take it with the next few months,

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Speaker 2: bring them to the lab. They do practice theory, but

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Speaker 2: before app them take it, we go through instructions that hey,

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Speaker 2: this you're gonna be stressed, that's okay. This means that

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Speaker 2: you're a or form the resource of being mobilized. Think

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Speaker 2: about what your stress response means to you, Like this

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Speaker 2: means that you care. This doesn't mean that ending's wrong.

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Speaker 2: And so you're getting rid of that catastroization. Because once

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Speaker 2: someone thinks that stress is going to be kind of

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Speaker 2: hurrying them in a situation, they'll devote resources to like

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Speaker 2: getting rid of it. That's wasted effort, waste of time.

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Speaker 2: Like you, you don't need to get rid of You

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Speaker 2: get a leaning like the leanings, And the best analogy

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Speaker 2: I can use is that this is these are resources

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Speaker 2: that are helping you. Alison Brooks had a really cool

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Speaker 2: study she's she's at Harvard Business School where she was

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Speaker 2: looking at getting people excited to do something versus getting

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Speaker 2: the calm down. And so they did a bunch of tasks,

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Speaker 2: like a bunch of like cognitive games, a bunch of

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Speaker 2: things like dance censored revolution or like singing games, like

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Speaker 2: lots of different kinds of things, and the people who

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Speaker 2: were calm did worse than people who were challenged. Excitedly,

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Speaker 2: being excited is better than being calm, So when they

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Speaker 2: still keep calm and carry on. It's like, no, be excited. Yes,

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Speaker 2: think about it, Like if you're if the filping's burying

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Speaker 2: down and you're going to follow the person who's like

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Speaker 2: sauntering on the hallway, it's death call. They gotta follow persons. Like,

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Speaker 2: now we're done here. Here, here's what we do. There's

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Speaker 2: a solution based thing. But you gotta do that.

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Speaker 1: So then let's talk about right now.

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Speaker 3: But but I actually you didn't. I don't think you

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Speaker 3: finished the story about the students. And so one bunch

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Speaker 3: of students, it was an interesting tangent, but one bunch

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Speaker 3: of students.

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Speaker 2: Didn't do that.

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Speaker 1: You didn't tell me.

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Speaker 3: The control group you didn't tell anything too. And this

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Speaker 3: other group you told them that this stress could be useful.

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Speaker 3: It's their body preparing them for action.

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Speaker 2: What happened the students who we go through the instructions

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Speaker 2: that stressed to be useful, they do better on a

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Speaker 2: practice theery. So in the lab take a practice test. Great.

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Speaker 2: They also show increases in owfamilies, which is a proxy

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Speaker 2: for NORB nephrin. But I don't get the actually process that. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but the coolest thing was that months later when they

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Speaker 2: took the actual test. They come back to the lab,

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Speaker 2: and the students who were in the reappraisal condition did

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Speaker 2: better than the other students, the control students in their

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Speaker 2: actual jury tests, especially in the experiently in the math section,

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Speaker 2: not in the verbal sections, the math section, which was

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Speaker 2: really cool. So I will note that that the sample

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Speaker 2: sizes back then were quite small. We replicated this now

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Speaker 2: several times, watch different samples, and so it's not not

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Speaker 2: just my web in other labs as well. So this

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Speaker 2: is now I'm pretty confident that there's been enough accumulation

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Speaker 2: of data on this that this is something that matters

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Speaker 2: for these kinds of situations where there's high stakes, where

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Speaker 2: there's stress involved. We're just trying to move forward with

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Speaker 2: how do we reach people. How do we kind of

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Speaker 2: get the message out that stress isn't going to be

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Speaker 2: this damning thing that you're going to see all the time, Like,

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Speaker 2: how do we tell people that this is something that

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Speaker 2: could be supportive not just for your achievement, for your health, like,

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Speaker 2: think about this is why I got So this is

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Speaker 2: gonna be another change that can go off on a second,

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Speaker 2: but post code go ahead, the whole self care Jemmy

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Speaker 2: Nuts and the whole, like removing fact like removing exams,

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Speaker 2: thinks Jeremy nuts. I'm like, don't do that, it's gonna

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Speaker 2: be terrible. Idea.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, jere me, thank you somebody else, somebody else

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Speaker 3: who's reeling against a friggin self cur if I hear

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Speaker 3: another frigan psychologist, if I hear another psychologist tell you

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Speaker 3: that that the case of resilience is self care of just.

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Speaker 2: Trying to go somebody so that that that's I know,

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Speaker 2: it's not. You need to do hard things. Every single

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Speaker 2: person needs to do something that makes them uncomfortable, like tomorrow,

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Speaker 2: like go do that hard thing. Go do something that's

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Speaker 2: going to push your boundaries in the way that you

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Speaker 2: don't know and you can't in the you don't do that.

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Speaker 2: Like my students, I purposely like taking grad students who

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Speaker 2: do different research today. I want ideas that like challenge

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Speaker 2: me one, ideas that are different than mine, because if

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Speaker 2: I have, if I'm training just little versions of need,

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Speaker 2: it's no fun for science, there's no fun for anybody.

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Speaker 2: We all had to push our boundaries. And the day

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Speaker 2: I stopped doing that to day and not I'm stop

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Speaker 2: doing research.

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Speaker 3: Honestly, yeah, absolutely, And the key thing is that this

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Speaker 3: stuff is applicable to the real world. And you know

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Speaker 3: what I I did some a bit of mindset coaching

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Speaker 3: for karate athletes and even the young athletes. You know,

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Speaker 3: before a tournament and and you know, they're competing, they're fighting,

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Speaker 3: and it's pretty it's pretty stressful. But just telling these

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Speaker 3: kids that they're not stressed, they're excited, can be a

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Speaker 3: complete game changer for them, telling them that it's their

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Speaker 3: body's way of preparing themselves. And you know, and are right,

430
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 3: you just say, you know, you're like a keyds tiger,

431
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 3: but you just got to tell your Brian. Hey, it's

432
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 3: the right response, but it's just not time. I mean,

433
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,679
Speaker 3: that sort of stuff is really useful. That real pri

434
00:24:55,760 --> 00:25:00,080
Speaker 3: as all can be hugely, hugely useful for people, and

435
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 3: I think your research shows that you can learn it.

436
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 3: Just by shifting your psychological orientation. You can affect not

437
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,880
Speaker 3: only your physiology but also how you engage with things.

438
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:19,640
Speaker 3: I think that is absolutely critical rather than just all

439
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 3: stresses bad and I should hide away from it, is

440
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 3: to actually reapplease it as a challenge to test and

441
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 3: develop you. But what sort of factors and affect somebody's

442
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 3: bast line and automatic approach to stress, to appraisal and

443
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 3: reappraisal you know from genetics, experience, early life adverse events.

444
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 3: These sorts of things give our listeners a bit of

445
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 3: a view of how these factors influence you on a

446
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 3: day to day basis without even knowing.

447
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:56,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, one of the easy ones you can't

448
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 2: touch on already is that those prior mindsets about what

449
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 2: stress means and is can affect what they do. And

450
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,120
Speaker 2: so when we do these really lo low interventions mabulations,

451
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 2: they work really well for people who have negative fire mindsets.

452
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 2: So that's where there's a bigest opportunity for growth, because

453
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 2: otherwise we're telling people they already know. But when people

454
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 2: there's people that are faced like real trauma, like real

455
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 2: chronic like negative stress in their lives, moving, that's harder

456
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 2: because there's now an ingrained system that has kind of

457
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 2: learned to kind of be always on. So when we

458
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 2: look at profiles of stress respons it's like THEO we

459
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 2: are cortisol With people who are traumatized, it kind of

460
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 2: a lower waking response but never drops down to where

461
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 2: it should be, so it's kind of always kind of

462
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 2: on a little bit all the time because it's thinking

463
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 2: about there's something gonna be wrong going on all the time.

464
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,399
Speaker 2: So that's a different kind of stress, that's a different

465
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 2: kind of regulation technique than we do. So what we

466
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 2: want to do there really what we found is that

467
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 2: exposure works really well having people talk about traumatize events.

468
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 2: And so this is something I want to give a

469
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 2: big shout out to Mount Whole Family Center here in Rochester.

470
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 2: They do a lot of wonderful work with kids who've

471
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 2: gone through neglect and trauma and abuse, and they're doing

472
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 2: tons of tons of rigged research on biological embedding and

473
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 2: part of their finding is these kinds of patterns, but

474
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 2: also the kids who are resilient to these processes. There's

475
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 2: a profile to this. And some of this is you

476
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 2: have to approach the difficulty of addressing the trauma, and

477
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 2: it's really hard for people to do that. I mean,

478
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 2: trauma is mean you want to avoid, you want to

479
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 2: never talk about, you want to bury that thing. Approaching

480
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 2: the difficulty there it seems to be helping these kids

481
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,640
Speaker 2: a lot, and so I want to kind of push

482
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 2: stuff into a Professor Jenny no and Patrick Davies or

483
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,919
Speaker 2: doing amazing works in these areas, but it's a different

484
00:27:58,040 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 2: kind of a beast than trying to get people to

485
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 2: write more normagti of day to day stress responses things

486
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 2: like exams or jub airviews or that kind of stuff.

487
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, and some interesting research around stress in the workplace.

488
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 3: There's a series of studies you may or may not

489
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 3: be familiar with, but did functional fMRI and then ask

490
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 3: people every three months, I think it was about the

491
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 3: amount of stress in their life, particularly workplace stress, and

492
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:36,120
Speaker 3: then followed them up and find that over time they're

493
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 3: amigdala is actually hypertrophied.

494
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 1: So for the listeners, they are a migdala.

495
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 3: The part of the Brian that's heavily involved in the

496
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 3: stress response was actually growing bigger, and their frontal lobes

497
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 3: were were actually shrinking because stress kills off neurons in

498
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 3: the frontal lobe preferentially. But I found one study that

499
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 3: used acceptance and commitment therapy as an intervention and find

500
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 3: that these brilliant changes were at least partially reversible. So

501
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 3: the which hints at the plasticity of the brain, right,

502
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 3: the neuroplasticity.

503
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 2: Oh no, no, no, we people, your your genetic code

504
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 2: is not set in stone. There's variables there we're talking

505
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 2: about with the mediala, especially where if this really what

506
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 2: it's oriented around is addressing negative of or avoidance oriented affects.

507
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,959
Speaker 2: And so you're anxious megala, if you're worried, the medala

508
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 2: all this kind of like threat. The stress is about

509
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 2: I'm worried about something, I want to avoid it, Megala.

510
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 2: And so with this the pre PFC stuff that's more

511
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 2: about regulation, and so seeing not fee in the regulation

512
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 2: regions and hyperactivity and the avoid sponsor regions makes a

513
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 2: lot of sense. We kind of take that how we

514
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 2: look at like what's going forward. Getting people to change

515
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 2: how they think about starts will change the brain. And

516
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 2: so there's I'm really hopeful that epigenic research will take

517
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 2: off the next few years, where the epigeno is something

518
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 2: that we inherit from our parents. It's territable, but it's

519
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 2: also be versable. And we started to understand a little

520
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 2: bit about more epigenetics, and most of what's going on

521
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 2: is methylation. So we can turn off or basically turn

522
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 2: off certain areas of the giant code by methyl groups

523
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 2: to that part of the code. But we know less

524
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 2: about the history modification. Like most of our DNA is

525
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 2: a kind of like a yo yo, and so you

526
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 2: can unravel it and travel back in. And so what

527
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 2: makes the histone, which is was wrapped around, unravel versus

528
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 2: not And with stress, stress can unravel the histone, it

529
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 2: can activate regions of our DNA. That's about responding to

530
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 2: adverse environments. That helps us again survive, helps to be adaptable,

531
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 2: but they cannot be exactly functional in modern society all times.

532
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 2: So well, this is of that.

533
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean, this is what I often say

534
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 1: to people like like that, that a MiG deal of response.

535
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 3: You think about it is a beautifully adaptive response to

536
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 3: the hunter gatherer, a kievman being in a dangerous world,

537
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 3: because it then makes that individual hypervigilant. They develop a

538
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 3: negativity bias and it's all about survival, and that adaptive

539
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 3: response becomes maladaptive when you live in a world that's

540
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 3: not dangerous, where you're just the stressors are traffic, relationship issues,

541
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 3: money worries, weren't wondering if your kids are going to

542
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 3: be fucked, you know, all of this stuff are those

543
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 3: modern social stressors that you mentioned. But it's interesting, the

544
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 3: brain does not differentiate between physical and psychological, real or

545
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 3: imaginary and will adapt accordingly.

546
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 2: So then what we think, what we think matters, and

547
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 2: so that's that's where we tell people. Lot is when

548
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 2: we talk about appraisals and mindsets and your brain what

549
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 2: you think direct role of which your body does, and

550
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 2: that a lot of people it takes them a little

551
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 2: while to get there, but once they get there, they're like, oh,

552
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 2: I understand this now, Like your appraisals, your mindsets, the

553
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 2: way you engage with the tasks, like your body's response matters.

554
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 2: It doesn't have like my heart doesn't have its own

555
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,959
Speaker 2: eyes or ears or nose wherever my brain tells them

556
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 2: what to do. So if I think I'm overwhelmed, I'm overwhelmed, heartlake. Great,

557
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 2: Let's help us live another day. Let's help us survive.

558
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 2: And that's what usually what we should be in. We

559
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 2: should be in survival, which means live mode, and that's

560
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 2: what we need to Usually in Mars, society is going

561
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 2: more towards that thrive survive approach.

562
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 3: So let's talk about that epigenetic effect, right, which this

563
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 3: will be quite a surprise for people in that And

564
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 3: the analogy I use is your genes are like the

565
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 3: lights and the PPG know is the switches, the dimmer

566
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 3: switches that turn it up regularly, down, regularly, switch on,

567
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 3: switch off.

568
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 1: And we now know that you not only.

569
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 3: Inherit the DNA from your mum and dad, but you

570
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,959
Speaker 3: can also inherit an epigenome so and particularly around stress.

571
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 2: So so.

572
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 3: Basically if you're a correctly if I'm wrong, but particularly

573
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 3: the mother in the third trimester, if they are significantly stressed,

574
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 3: that can have quite a significant impact on the development

575
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 3: of that fetus. Is brilliant, but even before that there

576
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 3: are epigenetic effects that come into place. So talk to

577
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 3: our listeners a little bit about you know, what's what

578
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 3: the hell is going on here, and then a little

579
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 3: bit more into into how we can manipulate the epigenome.

580
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 2: This is a I mean, I'm very hopeful there's gonna

581
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 2: be a big version area in social neuroscience. Seeing we're

582
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 2: not quite there yet. We're kind of really evidence. But

583
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,840
Speaker 2: what we've seen a lot with launchhreatingal studies is people

584
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 2: in relatively dangerous low resource environments. When you communicate to

585
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 2: a fetus a baby that this is our environment, you

586
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 2: need to be visual for sources of harm. Yeah, yeah,

587
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 2: that FETA should be visual resources of harm. There's wonderful

588
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 2: research again from Wendy's lab too. Sarah Waters did this

589
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 2: research where if you get a mom, you put them

590
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 2: in a stress task and so they're doing some really

591
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 2: difficult stress tasks that's not fun, that's kind of negative

592
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 2: threat type stress. Baby's a room, another room playing, Bring

593
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 2: baby back into the room with mom. Sit baby in

594
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,800
Speaker 2: mom's lab, Mom's answering research questions. Baby has lots of

595
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 2: carry pastor Mars babies having a stress response because the

596
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 2: mom is stressed. It's it's picking it up all they

597
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:08,839
Speaker 2: picked it up from the mom because the baby needs

598
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 2: to know what's going on here. My survivor you and

599
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 2: you were experiences me as negative. I need not to

600
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 2: be like tuned to what's happening to this and this

601
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 2: is happening much earlier than that. And so the big

602
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,320
Speaker 2: genome is that, yeah, we're passing this down to our children.

603
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 2: If you think want change your gene code. Like all humans,

604
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,879
Speaker 2: we all have the same agety DNA. Basically, why aren't

605
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 2: we all the same? There's different ways that the DNA

606
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 2: gets manifested, different ways that there's different a mules, Different

607
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 2: things are going on, but one of the big ones

608
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 2: is the representation of the genome. Like I love the

609
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 2: like a recipe book, the book could be closed, you'll

610
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 2: book through recipe, recipe gets made, and so what the

611
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:58,280
Speaker 2: histones are is like controlling what's what recipe is active

612
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:02,279
Speaker 2: now and if you're in an dangerous environment, it's like

613
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 2: we need a Virginian part of this to like help

614
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 2: us survive in this environment where you trying that off

615
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 2: and that person have that. So like two identical twins

616
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 2: of the same Jack Cook has very different kinds of

617
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 2: stress initial initial systems because there raise in different environments.

618
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 2: This is humans and adaptability that's really really flexible, but

619
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 2: also it can be not great sometimes, but it's optimized

620
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,760
Speaker 2: to help us survive. That's why we have these systems.

621
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 2: And essentially you took strictly.

622
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:37,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, the mother and the baby is a really interesting thing.

623
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 3: I've been talking to my wife about this more and more,

624
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:47,239
Speaker 3: that our nervous systems communicate with each other, and I

625
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 3: am am convinced of this, and people talk about you know,

626
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 3: I think for the listeners, everybody knows somebody who can

627
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 3: walk into the room and just you know, light up

628
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 3: a room like a Christmas tree, and everybody else knows

629
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 3: at least on the energy vampire, right, and we talk

630
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,839
Speaker 3: about here, can you know they can suck the very

631
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 3: life force out of you in an entire room in

632
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 3: thirty seconds flat.

633
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 1: And you know people intuitively get the you know that

634
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 1: we pass energy.

635
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 3: But for me, this is nervous system communication, and that

636
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 3: baby is picking up on the mother in a heightened

637
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 3: nervous system state essentially right, it needs to.

638
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:30,279
Speaker 2: I mean that baby's survival depend on that parent. And

639
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,800
Speaker 2: so when you look at the communication stress between organisms,

640
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 2: we're trying to understand is it is it visual? Is

641
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,800
Speaker 2: it haptic? So is it touch as a visual is

642
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,800
Speaker 2: what is communicating stressed? The best in these likely with

643
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 2: these really studies with these really young kids babies, it's

644
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 2: like the mother has to be touching the baby. Ah's

645
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 2: watching it. Baby doesn't do it. But we've done our

646
00:37:55,600 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 2: studies with like teammates, with couples. It's the visual signal

647
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 2: that's a bigger signal about I need to know that

648
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 2: you're stress. So if you're having an argument with your

649
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 2: synthecon out there, for instance, you picking up on their

650
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 2: stress reponds matters for coordinating that interaction, and if you don't,

651
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 2: it's going to be more negative interactions and information that

652
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 2: relationship broadly, and so what gets people to like cohere

653
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,919
Speaker 2: together and to survive You need to have some sort

654
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 2: of way that would communicating with each other on these things.

655
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 2: Like people are extremely social, like we're I mean, it's

656
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 2: not debo social am or we're pretty up there. Yeah,

657
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 2: So we can't so we don't seemply survive on our own.

658
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 2: We survive in communities of other people. So having these

659
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,320
Speaker 2: ideas of ways of getting information from other people, what

660
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 2: you're going to how you've interact with me, and what's

661
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 2: going on, these are really important to be like, these

662
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,360
Speaker 2: are singles that are going to be prioritized in evolutionary

663
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 2: processes anyway, M.

664
00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, let's not talk but actually just on the epigenome,

665
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,239
Speaker 3: which is really interesting to talk about histone modification and

666
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 3: that ability to switch genes on and off of me

667
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 3: you mentioned earlier. My favorite was psychophysiological and that that

668
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 3: interaction between the psychological and the physiological. I think what

669
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:19,760
Speaker 3: most people.

670
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 1: Don't realize is that that our diet has a huge, huge.

671
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 3: Influence on the epigenome that that we have all these

672
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 3: metal donors from our diet, and if you're eating a

673
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:37,759
Speaker 3: shitty diet, your ability for your genome, your epigenome to

674
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 3: function well is massively compromised.

675
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 2: So I'm not going to pretend I know more about

676
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,239
Speaker 2: this than I do. But there's a burging literature on

677
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:53,760
Speaker 2: our gut biometing with our stress systems. Yet the diversity

678
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 2: of our gut biome as acts. So you eat more

679
00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 2: metric foods everybody, Yes, you can't.

680
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 1: Absolutely can.

681
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 2: She eats some crowd eats me over like at it.

682
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 2: My wife would probably better talk about sania, but she

683
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 2: we we started doing more research in looking at people

684
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 2: with diversified eating habits. It is bearing this out and

685
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 2: we're trying to figure out whether it's a lifestyle thing

686
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 2: or whether it's ses thing, or it's purely typing gout biome.

687
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 2: But you're doing I don't want to get into like

688
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 2: penit degree of like methods, but it involves egal samples

689
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 2: and decomplication. And so if you want to take stool

690
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 2: sables from people, look a look at basic diversification of

691
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:41,800
Speaker 2: bacteria and that human You can also implant ecal champles

692
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:45,280
Speaker 2: to other people, and it has a lot of promise

693
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 2: because it's not just changing the function of their gut processes.

694
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 2: It seems to be changing their psychology. Mm. But we

695
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 2: don't know whether somebody who volunteers for a study might

696
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 2: be slucking themselves into a change in the psychological process

697
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 2: by self sucking the study. I'm trying. Yeah, yeah, Yes,

698
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,240
Speaker 2: it's a tricky event because it's not a true experiment.

699
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 2: We can't just like take you on the stream like you.

700
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean, self selection bats, it's always going

701
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 3: to be a big thing.

702
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 1: But wouldn't it be I.

703
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 3: Mean, I don't know, and I don't know if you're

704
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 3: in this area, But wouldn't it be awesome to get

705
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 3: a bunch of people, put them through.

706
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 1: A bunch of stress tests, whether it's the tree or

707
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:33,320
Speaker 1: social stress test.

708
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 3: Or whatever stress tests that you have, and look at

709
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 3: their performance on a number of different metrics, and then

710
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 3: give them a fecal transplant from people who are highly resilient,

711
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 3: and then bring them back a few months later and

712
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 3: retest them and see if there is any differences.

713
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 1: Are we getting towards that type of experiment?

714
00:41:57,840 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 3: We are?

715
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:00,120
Speaker 2: Oh?

716
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 1: Wow?

717
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:05,279
Speaker 2: Brett Peters at Ohio University is involved in these kinds

718
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 2: of studies and he is amazing their health psychology program

719
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 2: with paying Hysicola Bratt. Other folks are We're trying to

720
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 2: get there, but the issue is they're getting You have

721
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 2: to get people to to consent, and so if you

722
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:24,360
Speaker 2: consent to this, you're already facing a little bit of

723
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 2: a self selection bias at all. Yeah, yeah, so the

724
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 2: best that's why we've done studies like I'm most confident

725
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,320
Speaker 2: about the study of you've done, Like in schools with

726
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 2: kids who don't have they don't have a choice. Constantly,

727
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 2: they're only assigned to do these kinds of tasks where

728
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 2: we're trying to sell the it's not what's telling them

729
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 2: what the thing you have to like sell people on

730
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:48,239
Speaker 2: them something no one's in believing if you tell them

731
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:51,840
Speaker 2: you need to think this way. The persuasion is about

732
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 2: here's the benefits that can happen if you think like this.

733
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:59,399
Speaker 2: But we do a lot of engaging people as part

734
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 2: of the interets, which is part of the studies. We're

735
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 2: oftentimes especially in high school kids like we need your help.

736
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 2: Like you talk high school kid, you talk Eveline, how

737
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,439
Speaker 2: do you communicate this message to somebody else that's coming

738
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 2: up behind you in school, like your friend that's a

739
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,840
Speaker 2: year interview. What would you say to them, give me anestent,

740
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 2: like we literally absently write it out, like we want

741
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 2: you to be part of this. By doing that, it's

742
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 2: like they're buying in to this content, They're buying into

743
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:31,759
Speaker 2: the message. It's the internalization process. You gonta ge people

744
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:35,919
Speaker 2: to internalize these messages. That's really hard to do. Can't

745
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 2: tell people to think, especially Americans. Don't tell Americans what

746
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 2: to think, and so they'll say no because you told

747
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 2: me to think. You got trick them. Yes she wasn't believed.

748
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 2: But like you guide them in this process where like, yeah,

749
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,320
Speaker 2: here's evidency that we can do. Let's go do this.

750
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 2: I mean, here's so powerful for us.

751
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,919
Speaker 3: Hey, I think that's just what are things like philosophy

752
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:08,239
Speaker 3: and come in to play, right in reading stoic philosophy,

753
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 3: reading stories around around people who've done things, because it's

754
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 3: just it's sort of just kind of parcilliates into people's

755
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 3: brains over time. And you know, and I think your

756
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 3: example of the students giving them science based information about

757
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 3: what's happening in their body helping.

758
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 1: Their understanding of what's going on. I think all of

759
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 1: this can be hugely, hugely helpful.

760
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 3: So so so let's talk about actually, lets let's talk

761
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 3: about kids, and let's talk about raising kids, because it's

762
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,840
Speaker 3: something that you're clearly passionate about, and I'm clearly passionate about.

763
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 2: I'm very good at it.

764
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:51,879
Speaker 3: How are you Your kids are a bit younger than mine.

765
00:44:51,920 --> 00:45:00,160
Speaker 3: I think only your kids eleven eight, eleven, Yeah, mine are.

766
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 3: Mine are nineteen and fifteen. But for a long time,

767
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 3: you know, I've told my kids life is amazing, but

768
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 3: it's also going to be hard in parts, and you

769
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 3: need to tree in yourself.

770
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 1: For that eventuality. You know, this is where we need

771
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:19,479
Speaker 1: to do. Some hard things

772
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 4: Happen