WEBVTT - #150 Daily Telegraph's Ben English: The Murdochs, Trump vs Harris & The Future of Media 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:01.920 Him Boris and this is straight talk. 0:00:02.680 --> 0:00:05.800 We've never seen anything like this in human history where 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:10.000 a search engine is so utuly dominant on how we 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:14.159 put our information, and so it's unprecedented and terrifying in 0:00:14.160 --> 0:00:17.280 a sense that whatever you type in it's been controlled. 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:21.439 Then English straight talk made great to be here. If 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:23.880 you're the editor in chief of the Daily Telegraph or 0:00:24.160 --> 0:00:27.440 All Things Telegraph, what does ben English actually do? 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:30.360 You're doing the meeting things at once. That's the way 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:34.560 it is with a modern newspaper. We don't hold anything back. 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:37.640 The industry that's actually in the fight of its life 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:40.360 against an onslaught of social media that has no interest 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:44.760 in Australian society, has no interest in our welfare. And 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:49.840 it's just interesting. The attention economy, very untrusting in politicians. 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:52.360 There's got to be something. What's the hidden agenda here? 0:00:52.440 --> 0:00:55.160 That would be the least trusted people I think in 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:56.080 next country. 0:00:55.800 --> 0:00:58.000 Maybe next to me, But yeah, definitely. 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:04.440 Been English finally well and straight talk made great to 0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:06.840 be here. And I think the last time we caught 0:01:06.920 --> 0:01:10.360 up was in It's like I'm skuting was in Vegas? 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:13.800 Is that a great restaurant? Actually? Nick was holding a 0:01:14.319 --> 0:01:17.920 put together a little gathering of people for a Greek 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:20.360 restaurant in the Greek restaurant in Vegas and a number 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:23.480 of people there, but we won't disclose it was there, 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:25.880 but you and I were there, and I remember Nick 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:29.760 went to a lot of trouble with the I don't 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:32.320 call him the chef or whatever it is. And I 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:34.160 think it was lost on a lot of people because 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:36.720 one of the guests who was sitting there, actually I 0:01:36.840 --> 0:01:38.880 didn't want to eat some of the food and all 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:41.640 he wanted to eat was steak and chips. 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:44.160 You guess who that was. 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:49.160 Yeah, And poor Nick, he was like a kid to 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:51.720 know what to say. Look on his face. I don't mean, 0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:53.720 don't worry. Let him have it. It doesn't matter. But 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:54.480 you've got a lot of trouble. 0:01:54.520 --> 0:01:59.160 I I he puts thorts into things, and like you 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:02.280 wonder how people that and then you deal with these 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:05.080 people like obviously you have the burdocks in your life, 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:06.680 but these individuals are. 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:12.560 So incredibly busy and so incredibly successful and so wealthy. 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:16.640 Yet they here's a small dinner which probably was getting 0:02:16.720 --> 0:02:20.880 organized for three days. The detail, like you know, I 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:24.640 someone like Nick, and we're talking about Nick Politus, otherwise 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:29.040 known as Uncle Nick, the chairman of the Rooster's team club. 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:34.480 He told me, it's very interesting. Ronnie Coot, as you know, 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:43.440 was recently inducted into the NRLs call or actually as 0:02:43.440 --> 0:02:46.000 an immortal, as an immortal at fourteenth or something like that, 0:02:45.960 --> 0:02:47.840 I know which one he was. But and it was 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:49.679 a long time coming coming for Ronnie cult and of 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:51.560 course Running played for the Roosters and he played for 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:54.519 Souse and which is a pretty big transition between the 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:58.280 two clubs. But Nick told me, I said to Nick 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:03.120 after announced, literally the day after it was announced, have 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:05.400 you got Ron's new number? Because he's not answering my text. 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:07.359 Turn out I saw a run on the weekend of 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:09.239 the reason in an answer my text, he told me 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:11.639 it's because he's got four hundred text. He just overwhelming 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:14.720 and Ronnie's just ton eighty. But Nick told me the 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:17.760 day after that he'd already written a letter and Senator 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:22.440 to ron he wrote a letter, and I thought, well, 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:23.959 why would you runt out to write a letter? Who 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:26.280 reads letters these days? And you know when you can 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:29.480 go on text? Well, actually, if a letter arrives at 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:31.200 me and I've got four hundred texts, but if I 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:34.600 get a letter, I'll read a letter. And I thought, wow, 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:41.080 how insightful is that. I don't hopefully I'm giving him 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:43.720 his dues and I'm not over over egging the whole 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:46.200 of his situation. But for me, I thought, that's a 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:47.480 pretty thoughtful process. 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:54.000 Yeah, and the art letter writing is rapidly getting lost, but. 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:55.960 It becomes much more special because of that. 0:03:56.200 --> 0:03:59.000 Totally. It's the same with me. I remember the letters 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:02.600 that I received, handritch letters. There's sometimes some that you 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:05.800 don't want to read, but there's there's some really special 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:07.520 ones I've received over the years and they stick out 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:08.000 in my mind. 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:11.040 Yeah, I'm the same I and I. When my parents 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:13.120 love I used to always make sure I wrote something 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:17.320 to them, like Father'sday, Monsday, with those types, birthdays, Christmas. 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:20.560 Made sure I wrote something in there, even if it 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:24.560 was one or two paragraphs. You come from this world, 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:30.600 the world of communicating through text, because you're the editor 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:33.160 in chief of the Daily Telegraph for all things Telegraph, 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:35.720 because a Daily Telegraph today incorporates the Sunday Telegraph too, 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:41.400 So everything everything that the Telegraph Group produces a digitally 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:45.160 and the physical form too. Well, it is your fault, 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:47.080 and we're going to talk about not being able to 0:04:47.120 --> 0:04:49.920 get hands on well, the phasing out of newspapers, because 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:52.760 I actually still like to get a newspaper you're not alone, 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:54.920 at least once a week. I like to read it 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:57.279 once week if possible. If I'm an aeroplane, I actually 0:04:57.279 --> 0:04:59.360 like to thumb through the paper on the aeroplane, mainly 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:05.360 because harder to get off your your device. But as 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:13.760 the editor of the group, what does Ben English actually do? So? 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:16.880 Is it like the old I think his name is 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:20.039 Peter Finch in the remember that movie what was it 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:23.320 called The Network? He's sort of sitting there and they're 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:25.280 all in the room and you're sitting down and saying, well, 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:27.159 we're going to write a story about that, and your 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:30.240 story is crap. You know, what does the editor do? 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:32.279 What do you do physically? Do there? 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:36.600 Yeah, there is a bit of that, still still a 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:41.000 bit of that. Yeah, I mean I'm not I'm on 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:43.440 the tools from about when I say on the tools, 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:46.760 I'm actually looking at the pages on a screen from 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:50.120 about five pm till eight pm and we go to 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:54.640 we go to press. But you know, you're doing a 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:57.120 million things at once. That's the way it is with 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:00.840 a modern newspaper's of my time. 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:04.280 You used to have your deadline, and it was because 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:06.200 you had to print the paper. Obviously you had to 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:08.039 get all the stories actually loaded up onto the print 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:10.400 or whatever it was in the print. So the used bit, 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:12.000 I don't five or six o'clock. 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:15.600 Yeah, and then you it's it's really similar. 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:17.440 But now but now it's sort of a bit more continual. 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:19.680 Because there's something new comes up at nine o'clock, you've 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:20.360 got to put it up. 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:23.919 We don't hold anything back, right, so there's not a story. 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:28.520 It's funny. The only it's because it's a complete anachronism 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:31.839 to hold the story back for print. Yeah, basically because 0:06:31.839 --> 0:06:33.719 it just gets ripped off anyway and put up some 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:37.479 radio whatever. It just gets ripped off. So we've given 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:39.440 up that long ago. We don't hold anything back for 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:42.680 the paper. The only time we do is when we're 0:06:42.720 --> 0:06:47.120 required to by say, if we get a what we 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:49.880 call a drop, So we get a story from the 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:52.800 government or from another source and they said it's embargoed 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:57.000 right until five am, which means you can, you know, 0:06:57.080 --> 0:06:58.760 you can put it to print and it hits the 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:01.720 streets at five am. But you can't put it up online. 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:04.280 And the reason they do that is because they haven't 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:07.119 caught up with us. I mean, we're one hundred percent 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:12.200 digital and we basically reverse publish, if you like, back 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:15.920 into print. Everything's front loaded into digital. And now the 0:07:15.960 --> 0:07:20.600 next sort of evolution is into video. So we are 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:23.080 breaking our stories now by video. 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:25.600 How do you mean like it's more like television. 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:27.840 Well, yeah, I mean we've got our own Wi frame 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:31.960 on our app now, which is called DTTV. And you 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:35.040 know there's a little button on your app click on 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:37.800 it and there's a whole there's thirty three stories which 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:40.520 get refreshed quite frequently. We've got a five o'clock bulletin 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:44.720 a video and we break news of video. Our reporters 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:48.480 are not only writing stories, but they're actually presenting them 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:50.520 on videot But. 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:52.720 It's competing with television then to some extent. 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:57.000 Yeah, I mean it is. It's competing with appointment media, yes, 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:00.680 six PM users, so yeah, we have a loderate five 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:03.240 But we're also breaking news on video throughout the day. 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:06.400 But we're not necessarily trying to disrupt some of them 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:10.120 so much as to disrupt ourselves before we get disrupted. 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:13.360 If we just stand still, we'll get run over. So 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:15.480 we have to keep on evolving our storytelling. 0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:18.000 And they are too, by the way, they're using digital 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:20.680 to keep breaking stories themselves. There waiting to the six 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:22.360 Scotch News. Oh yeah, they're going to have the nine 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:24.480 apt for example. And by the time I get home, 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:26.440 and if I get home in time for the six 0:08:26.480 --> 0:08:28.920 scock News, I've already seen it all you have either 0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:33.320 through you guys, through news dot com or through the 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:36.320 nine news whatever is on you know apput and I 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:38.480 got seven, I've got all of them. Yeah, and there 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:40.600 are other places, by the way, break news like the 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:42.959 Daly Os. Yes, for example, we've been doing it for 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:46.360 a long time. They break it in text, that's right, 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:50.480 which sort of like for a period there during COVID, 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:52.240 I was actually very interested in what they were doing. 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:55.000 But I must say I do prefer to get the 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:56.360 video version now. 0:08:56.640 --> 0:09:00.880 Oh you know, increasingly that's how people need to want 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:04.960 to digest it, need to digest it. It doesn't mean 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:07.800 we give up on text. It just becomes more multilayered. 0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:12.920 What we've discovered is two things. Number One, our journos 0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:15.120 are actually really good on camera. We never expected that 0:09:15.160 --> 0:09:18.880 Prince jurnos would actually be pretty good. They're quite articulate. 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:23.000 I would say that our print yurnos have a deeper subject, 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:27.559 better knowledge. So that's their comparative advantage over not disparaging 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:29.720 TV journals at all. But a lot of the time 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:32.640 they've got, you know, they move from subject to subject 0:09:32.679 --> 0:09:35.600 and since you've got a scripted product that they're presenting, 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:38.800 whereas our print heurnos, they go deep and so that's 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:42.400 what they've got. So my remit to them is to say, listen, 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:44.559 just just talk to the camera as you're talking to me. 0:09:44.600 --> 0:09:47.240 If you're briefing me about a story, what's really going on, 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:50.280 so you know, just lift the kimono on whatever this 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:55.280 story is. And the second thing is that our readers 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:58.880 love it because we're sort of taking inside a newsroom 0:09:58.880 --> 0:10:01.319 and there's still a fascin with that. People still want 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:03.559 to know. Like you said, your first question off the 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:05.400 that is what do you do? Like how does it work? 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:08.400 And I still haven't answered that yet. I will, I've 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:12.000 been waiting for you. I'll get there. But but but 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:14.160 we take them inside the news room and so we've 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:17.760 shown our conference. So that's another important element of every day, 0:10:18.679 --> 0:10:24.040 we sit down with our key leaders and there's probably 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:26.920 about eight or ten of us and we talk through 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:29.560 we've got it. We've got what we call a topic plan. 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:32.920 We go through those stories and how do you mean. 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:36.160 Use is okay? Politics? Sport? Business? Is that what you're 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:36.720 talking about? 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:37.360 All of that? 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:39.559 You've got crime crime? 0:10:40.840 --> 0:10:41.040 Yep. 0:10:41.080 --> 0:10:44.880 So you've got the categories they actually like actually probably 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:47.880 de marked in other words, this is category one. We 0:10:47.960 --> 0:10:51.000 must cover sport. And then within sport there are Rugby 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:54.120 League and AFL and all of the n LW or whatever, 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:59.120 and you do that like really structured way. 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:05.120 We do so, yeah, it is structured. You know, there's 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:07.640 a lot of chaos and there's stories coming at you 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:09.440 all the time, but you have to have that structure. 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:11.959 You have to have a lot of planning. There's a 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:13.480 hell of a lot of planning that goes into what 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:13.840 we do. 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:16.120 So is your time spent on the planning side of 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:18.079 things or is it more the tactical stuff sort of 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:20.719 saying shit, there's an newstry. We better talk about that 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:23.800 both both. So do you see pretty much everything? 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:24.360 Yep? 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:26.480 It goes up on a dashboard or something, does it? Yeah, 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:28.240 where do you guys have it, or you'd have a 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:30.040 dashboard or your teams have a dashboard. 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:34.040 Yes, we have Data Insights dashboard, which is a bit 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:36.640 of IP we've got called Verity, and that tells us 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:39.839 in real time what all of our readers are reading, 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:44.200 how long they're reading it, for what they're reading next, 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:47.120 and so that gives us some insights into where the 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:49.800 appetite is. Is a tool, it's not the only thing. 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:52.320 We've also got to use our own judgment because you know, 0:11:52.360 --> 0:12:00.560 our acumen and judgment can sometimes still outstrips the computer, 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:03.480 if you like. In some respects used to be called 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:06.120 the tummy compass. So it's just sort of a combination 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:10.600 of both of those things. But increasingly where we're looking 0:12:10.679 --> 0:12:15.000 to the data tools to help guide us in meeting 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:16.040 our consumer needs. 0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:19.640 So Verity is it does Verity then also look at 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:22.160 everything else. Everything else that's up on the digital platforms, 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:24.360 for example, might look at something in the AFRs writing 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:25.760 it doesn't so. 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:28.640 We've got that as well. So and everyone's got these things. 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:32.079 They've got other tools called chart beat, chart Beast, there's 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:36.360 Adobe tools that give you a snapshot of what's happening elsewhere. 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:42.439 But you know, that's not as accurate as your internal tools. 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:46.319 Let me ask you this, Ben, So, for example, if 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:52.200 somebody else another one of your competitive competitors, and there's 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:55.280 not that many, there's only really one in print, for example, 0:12:56.240 --> 0:13:01.400 and there's an group, but do you does do you? Well, 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:04.720 that's a good story. We're not talking about it. Do 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:08.520 you then? Does then, Ben English, go to someone over 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:10.439 the Can you go and chase that story? Do you 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:12.480 get to that level of detail it? Or do is 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:16.240 your system your dashboard actually direct so and so over there? 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:17.000 Go and do it anyway? 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:20.000 No, it's not there yet, right, but AI is coming. 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:23.320 Yeah, but that's more an AI thing. In other words, 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:26.480 this story has got a lot of gravity. It looks like, 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:29.600 you know, so many thousand people have sure read it 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:36.840 somewhere else, and it knows that, you know, buzz Phil 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:40.439 Raffil should be writing about it because he's he's sort 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:42.960 of sent me a retired buzz. But whoever is checking 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:49.640 his place? And where Michael, Yeah, g chase it. Well, 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:51.840 he probably already knows about it anyway. 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:55.160 Yeah he does. So sometimes you'll you'll have to make 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:58.600 a judgment if the story is big enough, if if 0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:02.120 it's if actually it's you know, it's a seismic yarn 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:04.120 and you can't ignore it. Then you go, okay, we've 0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:05.959 got it. We've got to beat them at it. We're 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:07.720 going to come up with an angle that takes it forward. 0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:12.839 You can't just regurgitate what they're doing. If it's a 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:15.880 so so story, we'll ignore it. And because you know, 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:18.200 we'll try and we'll try and make our mark with 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:21.760 our own stories, and they do the same, they'll you know, 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:24.440 we might come up with some you know, compelling stories 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:27.080 and they'll ignore it because you know, we've already made 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:30.040 the ground with it. I think there should be more 0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:31.920 of us supporting each. 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:34.120 Other as opposed to competing with each other. 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:37.440 Yeah, yeah, I think in many respects, I think it does. 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:40.680 It's amazing for for someone coming out of news Corp. 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:40.880 Too. 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:45.480 I've never thought to hear that collaboration not collaboration, but 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:49.440 whatever the word is, because you guys have been so 0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:53.600 over the years, and let's face it, nine verses. Let's 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:57.120 go right Backpacker versus Murdock. Yeah, that has been an 0:14:57.160 --> 0:15:03.520 age age long that generations goes back forever. Yeah, and like. 0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:07.080 Yeah, down to pitch battles on the Prince side. 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:12.040 Totally actually real, Yeah, totally for sure, real, like like 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:17.360 real battles of physic example, legurary. So it so it's 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:18.240 got to But. 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:22.360 Here you are saying, you know, maybe I don't know 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:26.000 who your equivalent is at nine, but you know, unless 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:29.040 maybe we should perhaps collabor not collaborate, but work together 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:29.240 a bit. 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:29.520 Yeah. 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:32.360 I'm friends with them and we talk all the time. 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:34.880 And I mean you've got to think about you were 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:38.080 talking about, you know, our only competitor in print is 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:40.200 is a Herald But of course, and that's true right 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:46.280 in Sydney at least, but it's our competitors, our competitors, 0:15:47.240 --> 0:15:48.280 they go way beyond that. 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:52.480 It's all it's all the digital and time organizations. 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:53.880 Time is a competitor. 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:58.600 It competes with everybody. Yeah, yeah, my time, my media audience, 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:02.720 my time, because not only do you have lots of 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:04.320 other people putting the same stories, but. 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:08.520 You've got it. But coming back to sorry, it's coming 0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:13.720 back to collaboration. We attack each other too much a 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:16.640 right time as guilty of it. We're all guilty of it. 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:22.680 The public doesn't. They just see attacks basically undermining the media. 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:24.040 Now we're in the fight of our life. 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:25.680 I don't think they care, by the way, they don't. 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:29.320 They don't care less about nine versus seven, or you 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:33.000 who's done what at seven or nine? You know, this 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:35.960 allegation about the head of news or you know, like 0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:38.200 I won't say it's a but went on recently. 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:42.480 Yeah, I mean, look, if there's serious workplace issues that 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:46.640 are at stake here, I think, you know, there's no 0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:48.960 problem with reporting on that. I guess what I'm talking 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:50.960 about is just having it. Taking cheap shots of each 0:16:50.960 --> 0:16:55.560 other is not helpful to an industry that's actually in 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:57.800 the fight of its life against an onslaught of social 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:02.120 media that has no interest in alien society, has no 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:05.280 interest in our welfare. And it's just interesting. The attention 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:11.280 economy is rapacious, is actually gouging revenue, not paying back. 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:15.000 And you know, if we want journalism to exist, and 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:16.880 I think we all do, I think we. I think 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:20.359 even people who kind of you know, resent the media 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:24.040 at different times would recognize that the fourth estate plays 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:32.640 a vital role in maintaining a functioning, functioning community with democracy, 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:36.200 with a democracy at its heart, you need a functioning 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:42.520 you need a vital and you know, healthy media sector. 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:46.480 So when you say the fourth state, you're talking about media. Media. 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:48.520 That's an old fashioned term for the fourth state. It 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:49.720 goes back to the French Revolution. 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:55.200 But you're not referring to the big Titans. No, you're 0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:55.720 not talking. 0:17:56.840 --> 0:18:03.320 I'm talking more traditional mainstream Yeah, yeah, right, because we're 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:07.240 the ones who, like you know, we have for a 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:14.159 long time taken as part of our mission serving the 0:18:14.160 --> 0:18:18.320 public interest and whatever that may be, you know, and 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:20.240 we may be misguided in what we think the public 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:23.360 interest is, but at least we pursue that, whereas I'm 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:25.919 not sure that well, I'm certain that that's not the 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:28.240 case with those social media giants. 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:34.880 So you take me through that then. So I quite 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:38.119 enamored by the fact that you said serving the public interest, 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:45.639 and that's quite a thoughtful comment. Is that mandated to 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:49.480 you from above? Does Lachlan say that, How does it work? 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:53.439 Or is it your shareholders? I mean, who says this? 0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:57.440 Yeah, I mean when you say, man, in a sense, 0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:01.679 it's mandated above, in the sense of you know, the 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:08.840 Murdoch ethos, which goes back to Keith Murdoch Gallipoli and 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:13.120 then then what he did and you know, building from 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:16.920 the you know, the papers in Melbourne, and then Rupert 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:19.080 took up the cudgels of the News in Adelaide and 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:23.600 then the extraordinary career he's had sort of you know, 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:27.160 coursing through the ventricles of our country, of our company. 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:30.560 Is it is a set of values, set of principles, 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:34.960 and that informs us. That's the mandate from above that 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:39.000 I would I would be talking about. Those values would include, 0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:43.080 but are not limited to, a skepticism of authority. 0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:46.600 Would you call it indie authority? 0:19:47.600 --> 0:19:51.280 I would say, yeah, that's reductive, But yeah, I would 0:19:51.280 --> 0:19:56.560 say that's that's right. Yeah, definitely, definitely, definitely We're not 0:19:56.600 --> 0:20:00.919 closing up to elites. That's something that that you know, 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:06.600 Lachlan's grandfather certainly embraced. Certainly again going back to the 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:09.360 Glipoli letters, it was about. 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:10.879 You take me through the Glipolar letters. 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:14.760 Well, it was Keith Murdock who actually lifted the lid 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:19.840 on the Glipolar campaign and reported back to our government 0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:26.840 and it certainly, you know, I wrote some letters that 0:20:26.920 --> 0:20:32.080 were pivotal in actually challenging the efficacy of that campaign 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:37.879 and basically saying that our kids, our young men, were 0:20:37.960 --> 0:20:38.639 lamps the slaughter. 0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:41.040 So yeah, so in other words, as they're getting off 0:20:41.040 --> 0:20:44.280 the various boats and things like coming landing on the beach. 0:20:44.400 --> 0:20:46.600 Yeah, as you said, it was an ill conceived campaign. 0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:50.400 It was very poorly executed, et cetera, etcetera. It's quite controversial, 0:20:51.400 --> 0:20:54.040 but it was historical in the sense that and I 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:59.080 think this is one reason why Gallipoli is so so 0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:02.320 you know, figure so large in the hearts of Australians 0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:04.720 and also in the sense in our sense of nationhood, 0:21:05.400 --> 0:21:08.479 is that it was the first time with forward as 0:21:08.480 --> 0:21:13.000 a nation under under our flag. And it was also 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:18.000 there was that chism, There was that sense of happen 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:20.679 a minute, I was serving the empire here and have 0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:23.919 we been betrayed of you know, you know, have we 0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:26.760 been just led into this slaughterhouse? And so it was 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:31.240 the first time there was a sense of separatism, and 0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:34.200 you know, Keith Murdock was was pivotal to all that, 0:21:34.560 --> 0:21:38.960 and it was sort of those values of challenging orthodoxy, 0:21:39.440 --> 0:21:44.840 challenging the those who are in authority or ordained to 0:21:44.880 --> 0:21:49.800 be an authority that still is, you know, very much 0:21:50.040 --> 0:21:53.119 at the forefront of our value system today. 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:57.439 You said something very interesting, you know, like I wouldn't 0:21:57.440 --> 0:22:00.480 say'm anty sorry but I don't like the system just 0:22:00.520 --> 0:22:02.560 because it's a system. I tend to push against it. 0:22:04.040 --> 0:22:07.800