1 00:00:01,650 --> 00:00:04,830 Sean Aylmer: I'm Sean Aylmer, and this is a Fear & Greed extended 2 00:00:04,830 --> 00:00:07,920 Sean Aylmer: interview. All the other good bits we couldn't fit into 3 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:10,830 Sean Aylmer: the daily podcast. If you're looking for the daily episode 4 00:00:10,830 --> 00:00:14,940 Sean Aylmer: of Fear & Greed, check the podcast playlist. Otherwise, enjoy the 5 00:00:14,940 --> 00:00:23,460 Sean Aylmer: interview. There are a few people in Australian business who have 6 00:00:23,460 --> 00:00:27,330 Sean Aylmer: experienced more ups and downs than Brian Hartzer. His 30- 7 00:00:27,330 --> 00:00:30,840 Sean Aylmer: year career in banking saw him hold senior roles at 8 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:34,019 Sean Aylmer: institutions including ANZ and the Royal Bank of Scotland, but 9 00:00:34,020 --> 00:00:36,780 Sean Aylmer: he's best known for his almost five year stint as 10 00:00:36,780 --> 00:00:40,229 Sean Aylmer: Chief Executive Officer of Westpac from 2015 till the end 11 00:00:40,229 --> 00:00:43,560 Sean Aylmer: of 2019. It was a particularly turbulent time for the 12 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:47,100 Sean Aylmer: banking industry broadly, and for Westpac. Brian steered the bank 13 00:00:47,100 --> 00:00:49,620 Sean Aylmer: through the Royal Commission into the sector and was at the 14 00:00:49,620 --> 00:00:53,910 Sean Aylmer: helm when AUSTRAC charged Westpac with 23 million breaches of anti- 15 00:00:53,910 --> 00:00:57,420 Sean Aylmer: money laundering laws, largely relating to the bank's failure to 16 00:00:57,420 --> 00:01:02,700 Sean Aylmer: report international transfers. Amid mounting political pressure, Brian resigned his 17 00:01:02,700 --> 00:01:06,779 Sean Aylmer: position in 2019. Being the CEO of a very large 18 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:11,069 Sean Aylmer: high profile company would be tough enough under normal circumstances, 19 00:01:11,340 --> 00:01:13,770 Sean Aylmer: but in the unique environment of the period in which 20 00:01:13,770 --> 00:01:17,730 Sean Aylmer: Brian ran Westpac, the challenges and pressures would have been 21 00:01:17,790 --> 00:01:21,839 Sean Aylmer: immense. He's now taken everything he learned about leadership, not 22 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,360 Sean Aylmer: just from Westpac, but his whole career, and turned it 23 00:01:24,390 --> 00:01:27,150 Sean Aylmer: into a book, The Leadership Star. I'm pleased to say 24 00:01:27,150 --> 00:01:29,250 Sean Aylmer: that Brian Hartzer is my guest this morning on Fear & 25 00:01:29,250 --> 00:01:30,569 Sean Aylmer: Greed. Morning, Brian. 26 00:01:30,630 --> 00:01:32,040 Brian Hartzer: Good morning, Sean. Thanks for having me. 27 00:01:32,430 --> 00:01:34,410 Sean Aylmer: Before we get to the specifics of the book, just 28 00:01:34,410 --> 00:01:37,200 Sean Aylmer: how tough was it to run a big business like Westpac? 29 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:39,480 Brian Hartzer: Well, it's always going to be challenging when you've got 30 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,240 Brian Hartzer: a company that large, but certainly in the last decade 31 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:46,199 Brian Hartzer: it's been a particularly challenging time for banks. I suppose 32 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:48,600 Brian Hartzer: in my case I knew what I was getting into 33 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,900 Brian Hartzer: because I'd been at ANZ during the financial crisis and 34 00:01:51,900 --> 00:01:53,670 Brian Hartzer: then I worked at the Royal Bank of Scotland after 35 00:01:53,670 --> 00:01:56,610 Brian Hartzer: it blew up and worked through the recovery of that 36 00:01:56,610 --> 00:01:59,520 Brian Hartzer: and saw the challenges that a big company can face. 37 00:01:59,850 --> 00:02:02,160 Brian Hartzer: And having worked closely with a number of bank CEOs, 38 00:02:02,460 --> 00:02:04,230 Brian Hartzer: I knew what I was getting myself into, but it 39 00:02:05,310 --> 00:02:07,740 Brian Hartzer: certainly did end up pretty challenging in a number of respects. 40 00:02:08,070 --> 00:02:10,440 Sean Aylmer: What I really admire about people like yourself who run 41 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:14,400 Sean Aylmer: those big organizations is the ability to handle left field 42 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:16,380 Sean Aylmer: events, and there must have been a lot of left 43 00:02:16,380 --> 00:02:19,109 Sean Aylmer: field events coming at you all the time. 44 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:22,440 Brian Hartzer: There were. That is certainly a feature of it, particularly 45 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:25,500 Brian Hartzer: in a bank when you're plugged into all the different 46 00:02:25,500 --> 00:02:27,720 Brian Hartzer: parts of the economy and you have such an enormous 47 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:31,139 Brian Hartzer: customer base and such an enormous staff base. There are 48 00:02:31,139 --> 00:02:33,540 Brian Hartzer: always things that come up and you have to be 49 00:02:33,570 --> 00:02:36,510 Brian Hartzer: reasonably philosophical about it. I felt very lucky in a 50 00:02:36,510 --> 00:02:38,580 Brian Hartzer: way that I had had all the experiences I'd had 51 00:02:38,580 --> 00:02:40,169 Brian Hartzer: before I got to that job because it allowed me 52 00:02:40,169 --> 00:02:41,730 Brian Hartzer: to stay calm through the whole period. 53 00:02:42,389 --> 00:02:45,360 Sean Aylmer: Bank bashing in Australia particularly, it's almost a national pastime 54 00:02:45,570 --> 00:02:47,400 Sean Aylmer: and it sort of ebbs and flows a little bit, 55 00:02:47,610 --> 00:02:50,970 Sean Aylmer: but the industry has certainly evolved post Royal Commission, and 56 00:02:50,970 --> 00:02:52,650 Sean Aylmer: I think last year was a very good year for this 57 00:02:52,770 --> 00:02:56,639 Sean Aylmer: sector, simply because they played a really important sort of shock absorber role supporting 58 00:02:56,669 --> 00:02:59,910 Sean Aylmer: the economy during the pandemic. Do you think that has 59 00:02:59,910 --> 00:03:02,430 Sean Aylmer: changed public opinion or do you think bank bashing will 60 00:03:02,430 --> 00:03:05,310 Sean Aylmer: always be a bit of a national pastime in Australia? 61 00:03:05,490 --> 00:03:07,290 Brian Hartzer: Well, I hope the response of the banks in the 62 00:03:07,290 --> 00:03:11,340 Brian Hartzer: last year is seen as evidence of the genuine intent 63 00:03:11,340 --> 00:03:15,480 Brian Hartzer: by the banks to support the economy. A smart banker 64 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:17,550 Brian Hartzer: knows that unless the economy and the customers do well, 65 00:03:17,550 --> 00:03:20,370 Brian Hartzer: the bank doesn't do well. But I also think it's 66 00:03:20,370 --> 00:03:24,060 Brian Hartzer: fair to say I understand the fact that customers are 67 00:03:24,060 --> 00:03:26,700 Brian Hartzer: always going to have this question mark because they see 68 00:03:26,700 --> 00:03:29,220 Brian Hartzer: these enormous profits that banks earn and they think, " Well, 69 00:03:29,220 --> 00:03:32,460 Brian Hartzer: gee, they must be exploiting me somehow." And they don't 70 00:03:32,550 --> 00:03:36,810 Brian Hartzer: understand, and understandably don't understand, the complexity that banks have, 71 00:03:36,810 --> 00:03:39,360 Brian Hartzer: the number of different businesses they're in. And money is 72 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:44,190 Brian Hartzer: a deeply emotional topic for people. So whenever you see 73 00:03:44,190 --> 00:03:46,800 Brian Hartzer: something like that and you feel that it's somehow coming 74 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:51,030 Brian Hartzer: at your expense, it's understandable that people would have that 75 00:03:51,030 --> 00:03:54,090 Brian Hartzer: reaction to banks. And to some extent, I think that's just 76 00:03:54,090 --> 00:03:56,460 Brian Hartzer: the way it always will be, but that's not an 77 00:03:56,460 --> 00:03:58,950 Brian Hartzer: excuse. And clearly with the Royal Commission, some of the 78 00:03:58,950 --> 00:04:00,480 Brian Hartzer: things that came out of that, there were a number 79 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:02,850 Brian Hartzer: of things that banks should have done better and I 80 00:04:02,850 --> 00:04:06,270 Brian Hartzer: think have learned from, but there will always be some 81 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:07,830 Brian Hartzer: level of suspicion, I suspect. 82 00:04:08,100 --> 00:04:10,740 Sean Aylmer: It's just a tough gig, I think running big organizations. 83 00:04:10,740 --> 00:04:12,810 Sean Aylmer: Do you think there's more scrutiny in Australia and you've 84 00:04:12,810 --> 00:04:15,000 Sean Aylmer: worked overseas and you've operated overseas, do you think there's 85 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,089 Sean Aylmer: more scrutiny in Australia or is it normal across the 86 00:04:18,089 --> 00:04:20,219 Sean Aylmer: globe for CEOs to come under so much pressure? 87 00:04:20,580 --> 00:04:22,740 Brian Hartzer: Well, whenever you're the CEO of a company, you're ultimately 88 00:04:22,740 --> 00:04:25,950 Brian Hartzer: accountable for everything that goes on and you go into 89 00:04:25,950 --> 00:04:29,490 Brian Hartzer: those jobs understanding that that sort of thing can ultimately happen. 90 00:04:29,910 --> 00:04:34,830 Brian Hartzer: I would say that the personalization in the CEO in 91 00:04:34,830 --> 00:04:39,660 Brian Hartzer: Australia is pretty far out there relative to what happens 92 00:04:40,050 --> 00:04:43,109 Brian Hartzer: at other companies around the world. And I think it 93 00:04:43,110 --> 00:04:46,830 Brian Hartzer: is exacerbated by the media and political environment that we 94 00:04:46,830 --> 00:04:50,610 Brian Hartzer: have here, which puts so much focus on this idea 95 00:04:50,610 --> 00:04:54,239 Brian Hartzer: of personal accountability of the CEO, but that's the way 96 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:56,580 Brian Hartzer: it is and there are great privileges in getting to 97 00:04:56,580 --> 00:04:59,070 Brian Hartzer: run an organization like that, so you have to accept it. 98 00:04:59,490 --> 00:05:01,800 Sean Aylmer: So let's talk about The Leadership Star. Where'd the name 99 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:02,250 Sean Aylmer: come from? 100 00:05:02,610 --> 00:05:05,219 Brian Hartzer: Well, I'd read lots of business books over the years. 101 00:05:05,220 --> 00:05:07,950 Brian Hartzer: I don't have an MBA, and I often found that 102 00:05:07,950 --> 00:05:11,130 Brian Hartzer: you'd finish a book and you'd forget what you'd read. 103 00:05:11,370 --> 00:05:13,409 Brian Hartzer: And I felt that if I was going to write 104 00:05:13,410 --> 00:05:15,270 Brian Hartzer: a book that was going to be useful to people, 105 00:05:15,270 --> 00:05:17,700 Brian Hartzer: it needed to be something that was memorable, that people 106 00:05:17,700 --> 00:05:20,250 Brian Hartzer: could take something away from them after they had read 107 00:05:20,250 --> 00:05:24,270 Brian Hartzer: it. And the book revolves around a five point framework, 108 00:05:24,330 --> 00:05:27,390 Brian Hartzer: that's five things that start with C. And so I 109 00:05:27,390 --> 00:05:30,150 Brian Hartzer: was just trying to create a visual way to think 110 00:05:30,150 --> 00:05:32,039 Brian Hartzer: about it, and I thought, " Well, gee. Five points, five points 111 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:33,930 Brian Hartzer: of a star. Okay, we'll call it The Leadership Star." 112 00:05:34,170 --> 00:05:37,169 Brian Hartzer: So the idea is that if you read the book 113 00:05:37,170 --> 00:05:39,029 Brian Hartzer: or you read even the introduction and you see what 114 00:05:39,029 --> 00:05:41,789 Brian Hartzer: the framework is, you can think, " Okay, leadership star, five 115 00:05:41,790 --> 00:05:44,279 Brian Hartzer: points, five things, start with C," and hopefully recreate the 116 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:46,589 Brian Hartzer: book in your mind without having to go back and 117 00:05:46,589 --> 00:05:47,190 Brian Hartzer: read it again. 118 00:05:47,339 --> 00:05:49,410 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Brian, we'll be back in a moment. 119 00:05:53,730 --> 00:05:56,339 Sean Aylmer: My guest today is Brian Hartzer, former boss of Westpac 120 00:05:56,430 --> 00:05:59,220 Sean Aylmer: and author of the just released book, The Leadership Star. 121 00:05:59,490 --> 00:06:01,080 Sean Aylmer: So if you look at the five points, the five 122 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:06,270 Sean Aylmer: Cs, care, context, clarity, clear the way, and celebrate. So 123 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:10,380 Sean Aylmer: care, that's self evident, context is the one that really 124 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:12,600 Sean Aylmer: made me think a little bit. I wasn't quite sure 125 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:13,589 Sean Aylmer: where it was coming from. 126 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,020 Brian Hartzer: Sure. Well, just before I do that, I'd say care might 127 00:06:16,020 --> 00:06:19,050 Brian Hartzer: be self- evident, but the subtlety is, although if you 128 00:06:19,050 --> 00:06:21,330 Brian Hartzer: ask managers, " Do you care about your people," everyone will say, " 129 00:06:21,330 --> 00:06:24,240 Brian Hartzer: Yes." But if you ask people, " Does your manager care about 130 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,909 Brian Hartzer: you?" Not everyone will say, " Yes." And that's because the 131 00:06:26,910 --> 00:06:28,260 Brian Hartzer: point I make in the book is that care is 132 00:06:28,260 --> 00:06:30,480 Brian Hartzer: an action verb, and it's a question of, " What are 133 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,150 Brian Hartzer: you actually doing to demonstrate that you care about people 134 00:06:33,150 --> 00:06:37,230 Brian Hartzer: as individual human beings rather than just this generic human 135 00:06:37,230 --> 00:06:40,290 Brian Hartzer: resources that you care about?" So I wouldn't want to 136 00:06:40,290 --> 00:06:44,100 Brian Hartzer: downplay the importance of care. On context, the point of 137 00:06:44,250 --> 00:06:49,349 Brian Hartzer: engagement is that you're trying to create emotional connection between 138 00:06:49,350 --> 00:06:52,020 Brian Hartzer: the things that are important to an employee and the 139 00:06:52,020 --> 00:06:55,260 Brian Hartzer: things that matter to the company. And to get that 140 00:06:55,260 --> 00:06:58,860 Brian Hartzer: emotional connection, you need to explain a sense of purpose, 141 00:06:58,860 --> 00:07:00,720 Brian Hartzer: you need to explain why. You need to explain why 142 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:04,290 Brian Hartzer: the company exists, why it contributes beyond just making money 143 00:07:04,290 --> 00:07:08,099 Brian Hartzer: for shareholders, and you need to help people link what's 144 00:07:08,100 --> 00:07:12,240 Brian Hartzer: important to them as people to that overall goal. So 145 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:14,460 Brian Hartzer: let me bring that to life. In my career, I 146 00:07:14,460 --> 00:07:17,400 Brian Hartzer: visited lots of bank branches, and I would often walk 147 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:19,470 Brian Hartzer: into a bank branch and I would introduce myself around 148 00:07:19,470 --> 00:07:20,730 Brian Hartzer: and I would say to someone, " Okay, so what do 149 00:07:20,730 --> 00:07:22,890 Brian Hartzer: you do?" And they would often say, " Well, I'm just 150 00:07:22,890 --> 00:07:25,230 Brian Hartzer: a teller." And I would think, " Wow. Well, clearly we 151 00:07:25,230 --> 00:07:27,960 Brian Hartzer: have a problem with the manager in this branch," because 152 00:07:27,990 --> 00:07:30,630 Brian Hartzer: if someone thinks they're just a teller, then they miss 153 00:07:30,630 --> 00:07:32,010 Brian Hartzer: the point that that is actually one of the most 154 00:07:32,010 --> 00:07:35,190 Brian Hartzer: important roles in a bank, because that's the face of 155 00:07:35,190 --> 00:07:38,940 Brian Hartzer: the bank to many, many customers. And so making sure 156 00:07:38,940 --> 00:07:43,590 Brian Hartzer: people understand how important they are to the overall purpose 157 00:07:43,590 --> 00:07:46,860 Brian Hartzer: and that purpose is something worthy, I think is really 158 00:07:46,860 --> 00:07:48,570 Brian Hartzer: important if you want to get emotional engagement. 159 00:07:48,900 --> 00:07:52,050 Sean Aylmer: It's almost like a broader version of vision. So you 160 00:07:52,050 --> 00:07:54,690 Sean Aylmer: have the vision, but how you fit into that vision almost. 161 00:07:54,690 --> 00:07:58,980 Brian Hartzer: I like to start with purpose almost more than vision. 162 00:07:58,980 --> 00:08:00,900 Brian Hartzer: I mean vision, it's important to have a sense of 163 00:08:00,900 --> 00:08:03,300 Brian Hartzer: where you're trying to get to, but I think in 164 00:08:03,300 --> 00:08:06,420 Brian Hartzer: a large company, if you can be genuine about a 165 00:08:06,450 --> 00:08:09,210 Brian Hartzer: sense of purpose and a contribution that you're making beyond 166 00:08:10,140 --> 00:08:14,489 Brian Hartzer: earning money for shareholders, and returns are important to be 167 00:08:14,490 --> 00:08:17,190 Brian Hartzer: sustainable for any company, but if you want people to 168 00:08:17,190 --> 00:08:19,980 Brian Hartzer: feel really good about what they're doing, not that many 169 00:08:19,980 --> 00:08:23,970 Brian Hartzer: people, including senior executives, including frankly, lots of investment bankers, 170 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:26,850 Brian Hartzer: hop out of bed every morning thinking, " Gee, I really 171 00:08:26,850 --> 00:08:30,270 Brian Hartzer: want to go make some returns for my shareholders." The 172 00:08:30,270 --> 00:08:33,450 Brian Hartzer: actual emotional drivers are deeper and effectively what I'm trying 173 00:08:33,450 --> 00:08:36,450 Brian Hartzer: to say here is that you need to identify that 174 00:08:36,450 --> 00:08:39,719 Brian Hartzer: and help people build an alignment between what's important to 175 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:40,621 Brian Hartzer: them and what's important to the company. 176 00:08:40,621 --> 00:08:43,110 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Clarity's the third C. 177 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:49,559 Brian Hartzer: Yeah, so clarity breaks down into three parts, role clarity, 178 00:08:49,620 --> 00:08:53,699 Brian Hartzer: goal clarity, and behavioral clarity. And a lot of these 179 00:08:53,700 --> 00:08:56,550 Brian Hartzer: things sound obvious, but the point that I'm making is 180 00:08:56,550 --> 00:08:59,610 Brian Hartzer: that a lot of managers make an assumption and don't do it. 181 00:08:59,850 --> 00:09:03,689 Brian Hartzer: So take role clarity, for example. So if you went 182 00:09:03,690 --> 00:09:06,210 Brian Hartzer: and hired, let's say you're working in a startup, and you 183 00:09:06,390 --> 00:09:10,020 Brian Hartzer: go and hire someone who's a product manager from say 184 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,110 Brian Hartzer: Uber, and you think, " Right, you've been a product manager 185 00:09:13,110 --> 00:09:14,400 Brian Hartzer: at Uber, you can be a product manager at our 186 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,220 Brian Hartzer: company." Well, six months later, it may turn out that 187 00:09:17,220 --> 00:09:20,250 Brian Hartzer: what a product manager did at Uber might be quite 188 00:09:20,250 --> 00:09:22,620 Brian Hartzer: different than what you expect them to do in your 189 00:09:22,620 --> 00:09:25,410 Brian Hartzer: company. And if you haven't sat down and really gone 190 00:09:25,410 --> 00:09:29,100 Brian Hartzer: through that in detail, made sure everybody understands the expectations 191 00:09:29,100 --> 00:09:31,350 Brian Hartzer: and what their degrees of freedom are and what they're 192 00:09:31,350 --> 00:09:35,340 Brian Hartzer: responsible for, then you're setting them up for failure. And 193 00:09:35,340 --> 00:09:37,679 Brian Hartzer: so making sure people really know what their job is, 194 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,020 Brian Hartzer: making sure what they know what a good result looks 195 00:09:40,020 --> 00:09:42,270 Brian Hartzer: like, and what a great result looks like, and making 196 00:09:42,270 --> 00:09:45,780 Brian Hartzer: sure they know what behavior is appropriate. And it's the 197 00:09:45,780 --> 00:09:48,630 Brian Hartzer: discipline of actually doing that rather than going, " Oh yes, 198 00:09:48,630 --> 00:09:50,550 Brian Hartzer: well, that's an obvious thing, but I'll just assume that 199 00:09:50,550 --> 00:09:51,300 Brian Hartzer: everybody knows." 200 00:09:51,929 --> 00:09:53,250 Sean Aylmer: Clear the way. I love that one. 201 00:09:54,090 --> 00:09:57,540 Brian Hartzer: So the idea here is that if you've worked through 202 00:09:57,540 --> 00:09:59,130 Brian Hartzer: this and you say, " Okay, people know why we're here, 203 00:09:59,130 --> 00:10:00,840 Brian Hartzer: they know what's expected of them, they know what good 204 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,209 Brian Hartzer: looks like, they know what they need to achieve," but 205 00:10:03,210 --> 00:10:05,069 Brian Hartzer: then there can be all sorts of barriers that get 206 00:10:05,070 --> 00:10:08,310 Brian Hartzer: in the way of people achieving that. So they can be 207 00:10:08,370 --> 00:10:12,990 Brian Hartzer: resource constraints, they could be physical working environment and barriers, 208 00:10:12,990 --> 00:10:15,060 Brian Hartzer: but they could also be invisible things as well, like, " 209 00:10:15,809 --> 00:10:18,179 Brian Hartzer: I don't have the right training, or I've got emotional 210 00:10:18,179 --> 00:10:20,729 Brian Hartzer: hangups that get me in the way. Or there are 211 00:10:20,730 --> 00:10:23,550 Brian Hartzer: political things going on that are stopping me from being 212 00:10:23,550 --> 00:10:26,550 Brian Hartzer: successful." And again, the idea here is that as a 213 00:10:26,550 --> 00:10:29,610 Brian Hartzer: leader, you need to be proactive in actually understanding from 214 00:10:29,610 --> 00:10:32,580 Brian Hartzer: the employee's point of view, what are those barriers and 215 00:10:32,580 --> 00:10:34,800 Brian Hartzer: what can I do to help knock those barriers over 216 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:36,120 Brian Hartzer: so people can get on and deliver? 217 00:10:36,390 --> 00:10:37,410 Sean Aylmer: Okay. And celebrate. 218 00:10:37,650 --> 00:10:41,550 Brian Hartzer: Celebrate is really about recognition, and it's about creating a 219 00:10:41,550 --> 00:10:45,929 Brian Hartzer: reinforcing positive cycle so that as people get achievement, you're 220 00:10:45,929 --> 00:10:49,410 Brian Hartzer: recognizing them in ways that reinforce to them that this 221 00:10:49,410 --> 00:10:52,500 Brian Hartzer: is something worth doing. And the subtlety around this is 222 00:10:52,500 --> 00:10:54,569 Brian Hartzer: most people when they think about recognition, think, " Oh, we'll 223 00:10:54,570 --> 00:10:57,510 Brian Hartzer: pay in promotion." But actually, if you're trying to build 224 00:10:57,510 --> 00:11:01,290 Brian Hartzer: emotional links with people, there can be many, many other 225 00:11:01,500 --> 00:11:04,740 Brian Hartzer: things that you can do that actually make a bigger 226 00:11:04,740 --> 00:11:09,480 Brian Hartzer: impact than just some sort of mechanistic human resource process. 227 00:11:09,690 --> 00:11:13,979 Brian Hartzer: So really recognizing people as individuals, finding out what's important 228 00:11:13,980 --> 00:11:18,630 Brian Hartzer: to them, giving them new opportunities, understanding what their ambitions 229 00:11:18,630 --> 00:11:21,900 Brian Hartzer: are and how you can help them achieve that. Lots 230 00:11:21,900 --> 00:11:24,600 Brian Hartzer: of different ideas that are in the book about ways 231 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,840 Brian Hartzer: you can bring to life recognition that go beyond the 232 00:11:27,900 --> 00:11:28,830 Brian Hartzer: standard things. 233 00:11:28,950 --> 00:11:35,460 Sean Aylmer: We'll be back in a moment. I'm talking to former 234 00:11:35,460 --> 00:11:37,679 Sean Aylmer: boss of Westpac and author of just released book, The 235 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:42,120 Sean Aylmer: Leadership Star, Brian Hartzer. Now you've worked overseas and here, 236 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,280 Sean Aylmer: have you seen companies that have just done this really 237 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,220 Sean Aylmer: well, or three or four of the five of them 238 00:11:47,220 --> 00:11:48,210 Sean Aylmer: that they've done really well? 239 00:11:48,420 --> 00:11:50,490 Brian Hartzer: I've seen lots of examples of this. So if I 240 00:11:50,490 --> 00:11:53,160 Brian Hartzer: look at one of the things that started me on 241 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:55,439 Brian Hartzer: this path years ago I was in consulting and I 242 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:57,390 Brian Hartzer: was working in San Francisco and I worked with Charles 243 00:11:57,390 --> 00:12:00,810 Brian Hartzer: Schwab, which is a investment company in the US. And 244 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:03,870 Brian Hartzer: the loyalty that they built there and the sense of 245 00:12:03,870 --> 00:12:07,469 Brian Hartzer: mission and purpose that they had to really reshape the 246 00:12:07,470 --> 00:12:10,110 Brian Hartzer: way the financial industry worked was amazing. And I saw 247 00:12:10,110 --> 00:12:13,800 Brian Hartzer: that upfront. Another one, another American examples that happens is 248 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:16,890 Brian Hartzer: there's a company called USAA, which is an insurance company 249 00:12:16,890 --> 00:12:21,059 Brian Hartzer: that serves government employees and military people. They have one 250 00:12:21,059 --> 00:12:24,929 Brian Hartzer: of the highest customer satisfaction scores that you'd ever see 251 00:12:24,929 --> 00:12:27,300 Brian Hartzer: in any kind of company, let alone a financial services 252 00:12:27,300 --> 00:12:29,250 Brian Hartzer: company. And when you go there and you talk to 253 00:12:29,250 --> 00:12:32,580 Brian Hartzer: the people, the motivation in the engagement is just amazing. 254 00:12:32,610 --> 00:12:36,359 Brian Hartzer: And they really demonstrated, for example, you'd go in there 255 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:38,340 Brian Hartzer: and they would ask them about the company, and they would say, " 256 00:12:38,340 --> 00:12:41,340 Brian Hartzer: Well, we're a military organization. We serve the people who 257 00:12:41,340 --> 00:12:43,710 Brian Hartzer: serve." And then they would say, " And that's really important 258 00:12:43,710 --> 00:12:46,320 Brian Hartzer: to me because my father was in the military and 259 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:48,179 Brian Hartzer: my brother's in the military. And so if we do 260 00:12:48,179 --> 00:12:49,949 Brian Hartzer: a really good job of looking after people in the 261 00:12:49,950 --> 00:12:53,040 Brian Hartzer: military, then they can look after their families well." And 262 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:55,709 Brian Hartzer: you would hear this from everybody you spoke to. And it 263 00:12:55,710 --> 00:12:56,640 Brian Hartzer: was really quite amazing. 264 00:12:56,730 --> 00:12:59,130 Sean Aylmer: And what you are talking about presumably is even more 265 00:12:59,130 --> 00:13:01,170 Sean Aylmer: important when there is a pandemic or when you're in 266 00:13:01,170 --> 00:13:03,540 Sean Aylmer: the middle of a Royal Commission, in some ways it's 267 00:13:03,750 --> 00:13:06,119 Sean Aylmer: easier to run a business, of course, when times are 268 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:08,760 Sean Aylmer: good, but these sorts of things come to the fore 269 00:13:09,179 --> 00:13:10,170 Sean Aylmer: when times are tough. 270 00:13:10,470 --> 00:13:13,110 Brian Hartzer: Yeah. There's a chapter in the book about managing during 271 00:13:13,110 --> 00:13:16,439 Brian Hartzer: crisis, and as my career's played out, I've been through 272 00:13:16,620 --> 00:13:19,199 Brian Hartzer: quite a number of them. And what I find is 273 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,380 Brian Hartzer: that this framework still works, but the emphasis shifts a 274 00:13:22,380 --> 00:13:24,510 Brian Hartzer: little bit. In the first place, it's important that you've 275 00:13:24,510 --> 00:13:27,690 Brian Hartzer: laid the groundwork because you've helped people understand what the 276 00:13:27,690 --> 00:13:30,660 Brian Hartzer: purpose of the company is. And so therefore, when you're 277 00:13:30,660 --> 00:13:35,850 Brian Hartzer: doing things, you're reinforcing, " We still have this commitment, but 278 00:13:35,850 --> 00:13:38,490 Brian Hartzer: here's what we need to do now." So you can 279 00:13:38,580 --> 00:13:42,360 Brian Hartzer: tap into that well of emotional connection that you've made. 280 00:13:42,630 --> 00:13:45,900 Brian Hartzer: But if you take the care angle, for example, well, 281 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:50,100 Brian Hartzer: you think about during the crisis, people move through. One 282 00:13:50,100 --> 00:13:52,020 Brian Hartzer: way to think about it is Maslow's hierarchy. So in 283 00:13:52,020 --> 00:13:56,280 Brian Hartzer: good times, people are thinking about their careers, their passions, 284 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,370 Brian Hartzer: they're thinking about how they can feel fulfilled at work 285 00:13:59,370 --> 00:14:02,189 Brian Hartzer: and so forth. When you suddenly get into a crisis 286 00:14:02,190 --> 00:14:04,110 Brian Hartzer: like we've just had, all of a sudden they start 287 00:14:04,110 --> 00:14:06,209 Brian Hartzer: worrying about more fundamental things like, " Do I have a 288 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,450 Brian Hartzer: job? How do I provide for my family? Is my 289 00:14:09,450 --> 00:14:13,559 Brian Hartzer: family safe? Am I physically safe?" And so you need 290 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:15,990 Brian Hartzer: to think about how you adapt the messaging as a 291 00:14:15,990 --> 00:14:18,660 Brian Hartzer: leader to where people are at at that point in 292 00:14:18,660 --> 00:14:22,290 Brian Hartzer: time. And then from a clarity point of view, for 293 00:14:22,290 --> 00:14:26,130 Brian Hartzer: example, when you're in a crisis, you don't necessarily have 294 00:14:26,130 --> 00:14:29,190 Brian Hartzer: the time to bring everyone along and build consensus around 295 00:14:29,190 --> 00:14:31,380 Brian Hartzer: things. You have to make decisions, you have to move 296 00:14:31,380 --> 00:14:34,050 Brian Hartzer: fast, you have to have real clarity of accountability as 297 00:14:34,050 --> 00:14:37,230 Brian Hartzer: to who's doing what and what empowerment they have. The 298 00:14:37,230 --> 00:14:39,630 Brian Hartzer: framework I think stays the same, but the way you 299 00:14:39,630 --> 00:14:41,010 Brian Hartzer: execute it becomes a bit different. 300 00:14:41,580 --> 00:14:44,640 Sean Aylmer: When you look back on your career, how do you 301 00:14:44,700 --> 00:14:48,690 Sean Aylmer: think about your time leading big businesses and Royal Bank 302 00:14:48,690 --> 00:14:52,590 Sean Aylmer: of Scotland, ANZ, Westpac, obviously. You had some really big 303 00:14:52,590 --> 00:14:56,220 Sean Aylmer: roles. When you look back, were you able broadly to 304 00:14:56,250 --> 00:14:58,860 Sean Aylmer: bring these concepts to the fore? 305 00:14:59,310 --> 00:15:01,500 Brian Hartzer: Yeah, I think when I look back, the thing that 306 00:15:01,500 --> 00:15:04,500 Brian Hartzer: I'm most proud of really is the progress we made 307 00:15:04,500 --> 00:15:08,520 Brian Hartzer: in growing some of these businesses. And also, maybe even 308 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:12,930 Brian Hartzer: more importantly, the growth that different leaders had that I 309 00:15:12,930 --> 00:15:17,190 Brian Hartzer: worked with, and the ability to help them be successful. 310 00:15:17,250 --> 00:15:20,340 Brian Hartzer: And I know I've had lots of feedback from people 311 00:15:20,340 --> 00:15:23,550 Brian Hartzer: over the years about how this framework has helped them 312 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:27,450 Brian Hartzer: become better leaders and attribute a lot of their success 313 00:15:27,450 --> 00:15:31,170 Brian Hartzer: to applying this in practice every day. And so I 314 00:15:31,170 --> 00:15:33,810 Brian Hartzer: guess when I look back, for me, I think of the 315 00:15:33,810 --> 00:15:36,090 Brian Hartzer: people, I think of the fun times we had. I think of 316 00:15:36,180 --> 00:15:38,550 Brian Hartzer: the laughs we had, and I think about the changes 317 00:15:38,550 --> 00:15:41,040 Brian Hartzer: we were able to make in the companies that led 318 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:43,320 Brian Hartzer: to things that mattered to customers. 319 00:15:43,980 --> 00:15:45,810 Sean Aylmer: There must be parts of running a big business though 320 00:15:45,810 --> 00:15:46,740 Sean Aylmer: that you don't miss? 321 00:15:46,980 --> 00:15:53,160 Brian Hartzer: Well, the long board meetings and all the governance and 322 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:57,330 Brian Hartzer: regulatory interactions. I can't say that I missed those twice 323 00:15:57,330 --> 00:16:00,900 Brian Hartzer: a year sessions at the House of Reps either. That 324 00:16:00,900 --> 00:16:02,730 Brian Hartzer: I'm sure you could appreciate. 325 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,630 Sean Aylmer: No, I could imagine. So what next, Brian? So the 326 00:16:06,630 --> 00:16:07,710 Sean Aylmer: book's available now. 327 00:16:07,770 --> 00:16:08,250 Brian Hartzer: It is. 328 00:16:08,610 --> 00:16:12,540 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. So what next for you? You're too young to 329 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:13,560 Sean Aylmer: put your feet up yet. 330 00:16:13,650 --> 00:16:16,920 Brian Hartzer: Yeah, well, I love running businesses, I've always. The thing 331 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,020 Brian Hartzer: that was great about banks was that you had all 332 00:16:19,020 --> 00:16:22,140 Brian Hartzer: these different businesses with different customer segments and different competitive 333 00:16:22,140 --> 00:16:25,830 Brian Hartzer: challenges and new technology and so on. And so I 334 00:16:25,830 --> 00:16:30,180 Brian Hartzer: find myself really drawn to more entrepreneurial type ventures. So 335 00:16:30,180 --> 00:16:33,210 Brian Hartzer: I'm working with a number of startups here in Australia 336 00:16:33,450 --> 00:16:36,180 Brian Hartzer: that I think are quite exciting and helping them think 337 00:16:36,180 --> 00:16:38,970 Brian Hartzer: about how they move from having a product to running 338 00:16:38,970 --> 00:16:41,760 Brian Hartzer: an actual business. I'm working with some former colleagues on 339 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:44,489 Brian Hartzer: a new business idea of my own, which is kind 340 00:16:44,490 --> 00:16:47,310 Brian Hartzer: of fun. And I'm doing a bit of consulting. I've 341 00:16:47,310 --> 00:16:50,400 Brian Hartzer: got an advisory role with Quantium, which is a Sydney 342 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:54,360 Brian Hartzer: based data science company. They do amazing things, incredible people 343 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:58,710 Brian Hartzer: there. And I've always been really drawn to the data 344 00:16:58,710 --> 00:17:02,340 Brian Hartzer: side of things, the technology side of things. And one 345 00:17:02,340 --> 00:17:05,430 Brian Hartzer: of the great pleasures of the situation I find myself 346 00:17:05,430 --> 00:17:07,139 Brian Hartzer: in is that I can spend a lot more of 347 00:17:07,140 --> 00:17:10,560 Brian Hartzer: my time learning about and contributing to those areas rather 348 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,109 Brian Hartzer: than working on all the process stuff that ended up 349 00:17:13,109 --> 00:17:14,340 Brian Hartzer: consuming quite a lot of my time. 350 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,100 Sean Aylmer: Fair enough. Brian, thank you for talking to Fear & Greed. 351 00:17:17,100 --> 00:17:18,330 Brian Hartzer: It's a pleasure. Nice to talk to you, Sean. 352 00:17:18,690 --> 00:17:21,119 Sean Aylmer: That was Brian Hartzer, a former boss of Westpac and author 353 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:23,580 Sean Aylmer: of the just released book, The Leadership Star.