WEBVTT - Nine’s defiance over Ben Roberts-Smith doco

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<v Speaker 1>From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Monday, May eighteen, twenty twenty six. If it walks

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<v Speaker 1>like a death tax and quacks like a death tax, well,

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<v Speaker 1>Anthony Albanezi says any suggestion he's bringing in death duties

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<v Speaker 1>is a right wing misinformation campaign. But after questions from

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<v Speaker 1>The Australian on Sunday, the Prime Minister walked back his position,

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<v Speaker 1>saying future discretionary trusts that are set up to distribute

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<v Speaker 1>inheritances will be taxed at a higher rate. It'll be

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<v Speaker 1>years before the King versus Ben Robert Smith gets to court,

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<v Speaker 1>and in the meantime, what should the media do today?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm joined by Media Diary editor Steve Jackson to look

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<v Speaker 1>at why nine's stan is refusing to take down its

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<v Speaker 1>BRS documentary and how seven is surprising every one in

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<v Speaker 1>the ratings. Jack O's here in just a moment. Steve

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<v Speaker 1>Jackson is The Australian's Media Diary editor.

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<v Speaker 2>Steve. In the early nineteen nineties, I had at home.

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<v Speaker 1>A videotape copy of a show called Blue Murder. It

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<v Speaker 1>was one of the most remarkable kind of crime stories.

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<v Speaker 2>Was so well told.

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<v Speaker 3>See you're starting off on the wrong foot. Mate, I

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<v Speaker 3>don't help you. You helped me, and then we see

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<v Speaker 3>what's left over conspiracy to supply. May Jesus spare me.

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<v Speaker 3>You know you're looking at ten years. You're cold, You're

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<v Speaker 3>no good to anybody.

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<v Speaker 4>Richard Rocks brass alex Dimitriartes playing Roger.

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<v Speaker 1>Rogerson Eddie Smith of the big characters in Sydney Crime

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<v Speaker 1>when they were all still alive and out there committing crimes.

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<v Speaker 1>Blue Murder was amazing, wasn't it?

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<v Speaker 4>Well amazing for people who you said, Wales, perhaps in

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<v Speaker 4>Queensland we didn't like. For us, it may as well

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<v Speaker 4>have been Robin Hood in shild Forest. We didn't know

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<v Speaker 4>any of the characters. I get if you're living in

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<v Speaker 4>Sydney and you're seeing, Hey, that's Chipindale, that's where that happened. Unfortunately,

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<v Speaker 4>if you were living in Sydney, you weren't supposed to

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<v Speaker 4>be watching it, that's right.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, whoop, sorry about that.

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<v Speaker 1>I was at no risk of being called up to

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<v Speaker 1>be a jurymember in any of these trials, I must say,

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<v Speaker 1>although I did cover some of Neddie Smith's trials and

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<v Speaker 1>it was the kind of the end of the what

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<v Speaker 1>some cops would think of as the glory days of

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<v Speaker 1>New South Wales, when police could do whatever they wanted,

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<v Speaker 1>when they gave green lights to criminals all the time,

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<v Speaker 1>and one of them allegedly was Neddie Smith, this notorious

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<v Speaker 1>standover man.

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<v Speaker 2>But didn't I didn't let it infect my reporting, Jacko well.

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<v Speaker 4>But there were concerns and we saw while that two

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<v Speaker 4>part dramatization was rolled out across the country for audiences

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<v Speaker 4>in nineteen ninety five, I think it was filmed in

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<v Speaker 4>New South Wales.

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<v Speaker 2>It actually was suppressed.

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<v Speaker 4>There was an injunction against it because Neddie Smith, who

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<v Speaker 4>was a under world figure, strong arm man, but he

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<v Speaker 4>had appeals against his murder convictions going through the Supreme Court.

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<v Speaker 4>So the New South Wales Supreme Court said, in New

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<v Speaker 4>South Wales, we don't want it to impact his appeal process.

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<v Speaker 4>So in New South Wales no one's allowed to watch it.

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<v Speaker 4>So while people are watching it into state and presumably

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<v Speaker 4>sending your family a VHS or beat a cassette tape

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<v Speaker 4>of it. That was the reason for it. And we

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<v Speaker 4>see this happening again now with the ben Robert Smith case.

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<v Speaker 4>Is his supporters or some of his supporters, at least

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<v Speaker 4>a crying Blue Murder going, well, hang on, there's stuff

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<v Speaker 4>out there online now, in particular a Channel nine STAN

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<v Speaker 4>subscriber documentary Ben Robert Smith The Truth on Trial, which

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<v Speaker 4>very much says in it Ben Robert Smith is a

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<v Speaker 4>war criminal. Yeah. I just looked across some my mates

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<v Speaker 4>getting ripped up, so I was going to sit there

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<v Speaker 4>and do not think. And you've watched it as well.

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<v Speaker 4>I've watched quite a compelling documentary about the work that

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<v Speaker 4>McKenzie and Chris Bases did to bring all the allegations

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<v Speaker 4>against Ben Robert Smith to light and the ensuing defamation case.

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<v Speaker 4>But at the end of it, it's like, very much

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<v Speaker 4>we lost a hero and we found a war criminal.

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<v Speaker 2>He shared stages with generals, with prime ministers. This guy's

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<v Speaker 2>Father of the Year, a demi god.

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<v Speaker 4>Now that he's been charged with criminal offenses for war crimes,

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<v Speaker 4>should that be taken down similar or akin to Blue Murder.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Ben Robert Smith of course denies any wrongdoing and always has.

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<v Speaker 1>He sued nine over the material that they published, including

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<v Speaker 1>in this documentary, and lost. The judge in the federal

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<v Speaker 1>court found on the balance of probabilities which is a

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<v Speaker 1>very different standard of proof to the one that will

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<v Speaker 1>be required in a criminal trial that he had committed

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<v Speaker 1>war crimes. Now he's charged with five counts of war

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<v Speaker 1>crime murder. Some of those are about supervising allegedly somebody

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<v Speaker 1>else to commit a murder of an unarmed Afghan civilian

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<v Speaker 1>when he was serving in the Afghan War. So that

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<v Speaker 1>story of Ben Robert Smith has been incredibly well ventilated.

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<v Speaker 1>Everybody in Australia, I think has an opinion. A lot

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<v Speaker 1>of people are venting those opinions now on social media,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's the difference now.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, I could.

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<v Speaker 1>Watch my Blue Murder video at home in nineteen ninety

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<v Speaker 1>six and keep my opinions to myself.

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<v Speaker 2>Nowadays I'd be putting them on TikTok.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, And I mean that's probably part of the argument.

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<v Speaker 4>I know from speaking to my sources at ninth they

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<v Speaker 4>are cognizant of this issue. They have had internal discussion

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<v Speaker 4>should we take down the doco. They know that they'll

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<v Speaker 4>probably be asked to or there will be some argument

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<v Speaker 4>as to whether or not it might prejudice the trial

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<v Speaker 4>at some point, So they're cognizant of this. They're aware

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<v Speaker 4>it could be an issue, and they've decided no, we're

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<v Speaker 4>going to keep it up. And they've told me officially

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<v Speaker 4>on the record, no, it's going to remain there at

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<v Speaker 4>least until they're forced to take it down. But I

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<v Speaker 4>suppose it's this real question when criminal charges come in

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<v Speaker 4>whether or not some of this material should be taken down.

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<v Speaker 4>I personally say, there's a bit of a difference, right,

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<v Speaker 4>And we saw it again, so it's not just Blue Murder.

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<v Speaker 4>We saw and that was injunctive for six years while

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<v Speaker 4>the appeal process was rolled out. But then in two

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<v Speaker 4>thousand and eight we saw again Underbelly, which was great,

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<v Speaker 4>probably one of the best Australian true crime series of

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<v Speaker 4>all time. Melbourne Gang Lame was injunction in the Supreme

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<v Speaker 4>Court of Victoria in two thousand and eight against it

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<v Speaker 4>being shown in Victoria because there were still criminal charges

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<v Speaker 4>being heard. As a genre lar year in that case

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<v Speaker 4>didn't last six years. The injunction lasted a matter of months.

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<v Speaker 4>Warded down episodes went to where they just they're already

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<v Speaker 4>dealing with the Internet, realizing that if someone wants to

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<v Speaker 4>go in search of this material, they will find it.

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<v Speaker 4>With the Underbelly, of course, the judge hearing it, just

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<v Speaker 4>as Betty King. I think it was said that one

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<v Speaker 4>of her concerns was also the further mix of factor

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<v Speaker 4>and fiction when stuff gets dramatized.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and of course Bloom Murder and Underbelly were fictionalized

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<v Speaker 1>stories of real crimes. The Truth on Trial documentary is

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<v Speaker 1>a documentary. It's real interviews with real people, including these

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<v Speaker 1>two journals Chris Masters and Nick Mackenzie, who are in

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<v Speaker 1>this documentary really explaining how they came to do this

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<v Speaker 1>story and defending their journalism. It's almost as if they're

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<v Speaker 1>not really trying to establish whether or not Ben Robert

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<v Speaker 1>Smith is guilty of anything in the documentary.

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<v Speaker 4>He's often said that this was about a couple of

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<v Speaker 4>scandal mongering journalists digging up stuff that tortured the nation.

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<v Speaker 4>That wasn't the truth of it at all.

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<v Speaker 3>It actually came from other essays soldiers Comrade Ben Robert Smith.

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<v Speaker 1>Their main purpose to me seems to be defending their journalism,

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<v Speaker 1>saying that they came into this with an open mind.

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<v Speaker 1>That Chris Masters was embedded with the sas in Afghanistan,

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<v Speaker 1>the only journalist to be embedded with special forses, which is.

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<v Speaker 4>Where we first, he first got the inkling that there

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<v Speaker 4>was something doing here, so he.

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<v Speaker 1>Wrote a book, but had heard all these rumors, brought

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<v Speaker 1>in Nick mackenzie to help him stand them up or

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<v Speaker 1>disprove them. And that's the point of it for them.

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<v Speaker 1>It's that we weren't looking to conduct a trial of

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<v Speaker 1>Ben Robert Smith by media. We were trying to establish

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<v Speaker 1>the truth. The difficulty, if I think, for media organizations now,

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<v Speaker 1>is that we are being held to a different standard

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<v Speaker 1>than people on social media. So you see, judges can't

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<v Speaker 1>try to suppress social media posting about their trials.

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<v Speaker 2>While they're live with no luck whatsoever. Everybody ignores them.

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<v Speaker 1>The judges sit in the court and say, just as

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<v Speaker 1>a reminder everybody, you're not allowed to say anything about

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<v Speaker 1>this trial.

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<v Speaker 2>Well it's not happened in the mushroom trial.

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<v Speaker 1>But the only people who actually get pinged are mainstream

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<v Speaker 1>media operators who are saying something that the judges associates

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<v Speaker 1>are able to take down and transcribe.

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<v Speaker 2>It's the courts are hopelessly.

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<v Speaker 1>Out of date in policing social media, and maybe it's

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<v Speaker 1>actually they can't hold back that.

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<v Speaker 2>Tight at all.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, what surprised me about the Mushroom trial was because

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<v Speaker 4>it was so omnipresent, captivated so many PEO people that

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<v Speaker 4>we saw a lot of people even in mainstream media

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<v Speaker 4>who usually didn't report on court stories, had tipped to

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<v Speaker 4>Kyle Sandalands and Jackie o' henderson who all of a

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<v Speaker 4>sudden were like, hey, let's talk about this case and

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<v Speaker 4>Ethne giving debriefs on I did you believe what she

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<v Speaker 4>was saying? I thought that she didn't quite And all

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<v Speaker 4>of a sudden they're getting sort of like slaps on

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<v Speaker 4>the risk and you can't do that. What are you

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<v Speaker 4>talking about? That's our honest opinion. You go, yeah, but

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<v Speaker 4>it's before the courts, and so it's surprising that we

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<v Speaker 4>think and obviously a lot of people who watch this

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<v Speaker 4>podcast or listen to this podcast, being readers of The Australian,

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<v Speaker 4>will be across sub judacy, but we often forget there's

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<v Speaker 4>a whole heap of people out there who use social

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<v Speaker 4>media who who don't really get the difference of what

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<v Speaker 4>you can and can't say.

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<v Speaker 1>Nine has spent an absolutely vast amount of money on

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<v Speaker 1>this case, defending this defamation case from bed and Robert Smith.

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<v Speaker 1>They could have paid him to go away and taken

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<v Speaker 1>down the stories even though they believed in them, because

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<v Speaker 1>it was cheaper and easier.

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<v Speaker 2>Media organizations do that all the time.

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<v Speaker 4>They could have paid him a pittance of what they

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<v Speaker 4>and then just gone all right, we won't We'll just

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<v Speaker 4>leave that to the authorities.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they didn't do that.

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<v Speaker 1>They feel obviously very strongly that they've been vindicated. But

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<v Speaker 1>you know, this is at a time of shrinking media

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<v Speaker 1>budgets in newsrooms.

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<v Speaker 2>Nine is still.

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<v Speaker 1>Trying to produce a news bulletin unbelievably high quality every night.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a huge hit they've taken, isn't it.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, because you know, obviously there's a question mark as

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<v Speaker 4>to whether or not they will ever get all that

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<v Speaker 4>money back, and that's always a concern, and you know,

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<v Speaker 4>moving forward, will media organizations always be up for that fight?

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<v Speaker 4>And sometimes you think it's a very nineteen nineties naughty

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<v Speaker 4>thing where you know, we've got editorial independence and where

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<v Speaker 4>and we're going to do this. And you see places

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<v Speaker 4>like the Australian Firm believers in you know, aggressively pursuing

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<v Speaker 4>stories news corps. It's quite at the heart of their DNA.

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<v Speaker 4>You see, nine historically has done that. Seven ten probably

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<v Speaker 4>hasn't dipped their toe into that pool as much because

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<v Speaker 4>they've traditionally chased a different audience. But ABC once again,

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<v Speaker 4>and you just go in this day and age, do

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<v Speaker 4>you you know, so you want to.

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<v Speaker 2>Can you afford it?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean it's all about ratings, which in the commercial

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<v Speaker 1>media organizations is what gives you the revenue. Coming up

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<v Speaker 1>a big surprise in the news ratings. So are nine

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<v Speaker 1>going to be able to continue paying for this kind

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<v Speaker 1>of thing? How are their ratings going? Oh?

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<v Speaker 4>Well, it's interesting right because both free to air networks

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<v Speaker 4>are saying our viewership is up, like, you know, more

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<v Speaker 4>people watching free to air news than ever before. And

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<v Speaker 4>I've got friends that make sure when they get home

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<v Speaker 4>they turn on free to air.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah I do.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, Well I'm a loyal watcher of news bulletins. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>watch it probably two to.

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<v Speaker 2>Night two a night, yeah, which ones nine and seven.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I love television journalism. I think it is the apex

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<v Speaker 2>of our craft.

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<v Speaker 4>Actually it's weird because when I moved from print at

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<v Speaker 4>tabloids into television journalism, and you think I know how

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<v Speaker 4>to write really tight, concise pars or lines of sentences,

0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:27.240
<v Speaker 4>I know had to write really tight and concisely, and

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<v Speaker 4>you get to television you go, oh, I had no idea,

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<v Speaker 4>Like I thought I was being very short and thrifty

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<v Speaker 4>with my words, and then you get there and some

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<v Speaker 4>of the times they're not even full sentences. They have

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<v Speaker 4>time to say.

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<v Speaker 2>So it is lean.

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<v Speaker 1>And economical and often quite beautiful writing in television, and

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<v Speaker 1>you know, if they're doing it right, you don't notice

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<v Speaker 1>that because you just have this sort of multimedia, fully

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<v Speaker 1>sensory onslought of information. I think both nine and seven

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<v Speaker 1>do a great job.

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<v Speaker 4>And what we're seeing now, of course, is that it's

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<v Speaker 4>probably in its most heated battle that it's been for years.

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<v Speaker 4>Has been a lot of change at both seven and nine.

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<v Speaker 4>So at seven we had a news director, a national

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<v Speaker 4>news director by the name of Craig McPherson. Ten years unbeaten,

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<v Speaker 4>he leaves. A newspaper editor comes in who thinks he

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<v Speaker 4>knows television. There's a lot to learn, tells everyone, Hey,

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<v Speaker 4>you know what, ratings don't matter anymore. They do matter.

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<v Speaker 1>Met Lizza's just explaining that they matter because if you

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<v Speaker 1>can tell an advertiser that their ad is going to

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<v Speaker 1>be seen by a million people instead of nine hundred

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<v Speaker 1>thousand people.

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<v Speaker 2>You can charge them all for that.

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<v Speaker 4>Ad well to be the number one news bullets and

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<v Speaker 4>at six pm nationally. I think it's worth forty million

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<v Speaker 4>dollars in premium advertising cross the years. So it matters

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<v Speaker 4>in terms of revenue, but it also matters in terms

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<v Speaker 4>of are you engaging with your audience. And at the

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<v Speaker 4>moment we've got a new news director again, a lot

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<v Speaker 4>of change. At seven, the newspaper guy's out and the

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<v Speaker 4>TV guys come back in a guy who's loved television,

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<v Speaker 4>Ray Kooka. They call him the Wolf.

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<v Speaker 2>Because why do they call him the Wolf? Well, it's

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<v Speaker 2>a character.

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<v Speaker 4>From pulp fiction who they send in the clean up

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<v Speaker 4>messes and he's the guy that cleans up all the messes,

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<v Speaker 4>and this time he's cleaning up the mess of the ratings.

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<v Speaker 2>Jimmy wrote, this is your ass sure is?

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<v Speaker 4>I went to Wolf, I solve problems and look, everyone

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<v Speaker 4>said it couldn't be done, and I will be the

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<v Speaker 4>first to admit I wrote repeatedly it can't be done.

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<v Speaker 4>They've lost too much ground. Nine is on the ascendency.

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<v Speaker 4>They're going to be the arsenal of the Australian television

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<v Speaker 4>News Premier League can't be beaten, and he's coming and

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<v Speaker 4>war and behold. All of a sudden, everyone at nine's

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<v Speaker 4>getting nervous, going, hey, we're losing weeks in Sydney, which

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<v Speaker 4>is a rugby league town and where the rugby league network,

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<v Speaker 4>Why seven beating us? And they're losing weeks in Melbourne

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<v Speaker 4>and in Brisbane where they are almost unbeatable. Absolutely nine's

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<v Speaker 4>got one of the best news directors in the country

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<v Speaker 4>up there, Brendan Hawking. He's phenomenal, but he's starting to

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<v Speaker 4>seed ground and all of a sudden, alarm bells are

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<v Speaker 4>going off and going what's happening? And what it comes

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<v Speaker 4>down to is speaking to a lot of news directors.

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<v Speaker 4>I'd like to pass it off as my own genius knowledge,

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<v Speaker 4>but I've been told is what they're really hitting is

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<v Speaker 4>naming the locales. So when you're watching Channel nine News

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<v Speaker 4>or Channel seven News and you're talking about say Sydney,

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<v Speaker 4>don't say south West Sydney, tell on the suburb, tell

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<v Speaker 4>on the street. So you feel like you're part of there,

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<v Speaker 4>because no one in Southwest Sydney says I come from

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<v Speaker 4>south West Sydney, as same in Brisbane, no one goes,

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<v Speaker 4>I come from Brisbane's in a west like they talk

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<v Speaker 4>in suburbs. I'm from Tuwong, I'm not from the Inner West.

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<v Speaker 4>And so it's all about getting down to a local

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<v Speaker 4>level and actually being part of your audience and not

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<v Speaker 4>some crowd that's sitting in the city or North Sydney

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<v Speaker 4>or up Mount Couther or you know, wherever you are

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<v Speaker 4>talking to people about their suburb. Be part of that community.

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<v Speaker 4>And you know, it's all about hitting those little beats.

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<v Speaker 4>So we're seeing seven doing that a lot better on

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<v Speaker 4>the ascendency, and what we're going to see is a

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<v Speaker 4>lot of pain at nine as they try to revolutionize

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<v Speaker 4>and get back to where they were by you know,

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<v Speaker 4>going how are we missing? How are we stuffing this up?

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<v Speaker 4>A year ago, Seven weren't even in the game. Now

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<v Speaker 4>they're not only in the game, they're winning. So there's

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<v Speaker 4>going to be a lot of concerns going on over

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<v Speaker 4>there and a lot of soul searching.

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<v Speaker 2>I can't wait to read all about it in the diary.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks Jacko, thank you so much for having me. Unclaire.

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<v Speaker 1>Steve Jackson's Diary is live right now and every Monday

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<v Speaker 1>at The Australian dot com, dot au,