1 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:06,110 Sean Alymer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,110 --> 00:00:08,730 Sean Alymer: Alymer. It was a big week last week for the 3 00:00:08,730 --> 00:00:11,700 Sean Alymer: prime minister. As well as attending the G7 meeting in 4 00:00:11,700 --> 00:00:15,500 Sean Alymer: Cornwell, England, Scott Morrison used his UK trip to sign 5 00:00:15,500 --> 00:00:18,870 Sean Alymer: a free trade agreement with British prime minister, Boris Johnson. 6 00:00:19,300 --> 00:00:22,470 Sean Alymer: That country's first agreement since Brexit. He also met with 7 00:00:22,470 --> 00:00:26,639 Sean Alymer: French president, Emmanuel Macron, continuing talks about a potential free 8 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,430 Sean Alymer: trade agreement there too. I wanted to have a closer 9 00:00:29,430 --> 00:00:31,830 Sean Alymer: look at what it all means for Australia. Professor Tim 10 00:00:31,830 --> 00:00:34,769 Sean Alymer: Harcourt is one of the busiest people in economics. He's 11 00:00:34,770 --> 00:00:37,610 Sean Alymer: the Industry Professor and Chief Economist at the University of 12 00:00:37,610 --> 00:00:40,900 Sean Alymer: Technology Sydney. He's also the host of the Airport Economist 13 00:00:40,900 --> 00:00:44,810 Sean Alymer: podcast on LiSTNR and TV show, After The Pandemic, on 14 00:00:44,810 --> 00:00:47,680 Sean Alymer: ausbiz. If that wasn't enough, he's written a new book 15 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:51,580 Sean Alymer: as well, The Airport Economist flies Again. If you haven't 16 00:00:51,580 --> 00:00:55,340 Sean Alymer: read Tim's books, go and read them. They're just fantastic. 17 00:00:55,470 --> 00:00:57,720 Sean Alymer: You don't have to be an economist to read Tim's 18 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:00,100 Sean Alymer: work and that's what makes it so good. Tim, how's 19 00:01:00,100 --> 00:01:00,680 Sean Alymer: that for an intro? 20 00:01:01,020 --> 00:01:06,751 Tim Harcourt: Oh, really impressed, mate. Thanks for all those plugs. 21 00:01:06,751 --> 00:01:09,010 Sean Alymer: That's right. Now, I think you know about as much about trade as anyone I know. 22 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:11,069 Sean Alymer: Let's start with a very basics though, to dumb it 23 00:01:11,069 --> 00:01:13,880 Sean Alymer: down for people like me. Why are free trade deals 24 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:18,340 Sean Alymer: just so important and particularly bilateral versus multilateral? 25 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:23,170 Tim Harcourt: Well Sean, in a perfect world, I guess unilaterally everyone would 26 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,800 Tim Harcourt: reduce their tariffs and let trade flow freely, like Adam 27 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:29,410 Tim Harcourt: Smith wanted it to. Given that we live in a second best 28 00:01:29,459 --> 00:01:33,120 Tim Harcourt: world, as economists say, if we can't get the multilateral 29 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,420 Tim Harcourt: deal up, because the WTO is as dead as a Doha, 30 00:01:36,910 --> 00:01:40,550 Tim Harcourt: then we have to go for bilateral deals. Their second 31 00:01:40,550 --> 00:01:43,380 Tim Harcourt: or third best, but sometimes it's all that's on the 32 00:01:43,380 --> 00:01:45,381 Tim Harcourt: table, and that's why we've got this one with the UK. 33 00:01:45,380 --> 00:01:51,430 Sean Alymer: So just before we get into the UK one, the multilateralism really has died of 34 00:01:51,430 --> 00:01:53,750 Sean Alymer: death in the last five or so years. Is that 35 00:01:53,750 --> 00:01:56,610 Sean Alymer: a Trumpism or is it something more to it? 36 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,320 Tim Harcourt: Oh, it's pre- Trump, I think. The US administration even 37 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,100 Tim Harcourt: with George Bush Jr. was wanting to do all these 38 00:02:03,190 --> 00:02:07,750 Tim Harcourt: bilateral deals, more was geopolitical in some ways. In fact, 39 00:02:07,970 --> 00:02:10,780 Tim Harcourt: Adrian Rowlands, one of your former colleagues from the press 40 00:02:10,780 --> 00:02:14,580 Tim Harcourt: gallery, wrote about the bilateral deals from America being really 41 00:02:14,580 --> 00:02:18,410 Tim Harcourt: about the response to September 11. So they are pre- 42 00:02:18,410 --> 00:02:22,750 Tim Harcourt: Trump. Trump's thing was he didn't really care what deal 43 00:02:22,750 --> 00:02:24,510 Tim Harcourt: it was. He just said everyone did bad deals because 44 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:27,060 Tim Harcourt: they weren't businessmen like him. So he was going to rip them 45 00:02:27,060 --> 00:02:29,459 Tim Harcourt: all up and do them again, but he wasn't particularly 46 00:02:29,460 --> 00:02:31,240 Tim Harcourt: in favor of one deal or another. He just thought he 47 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:33,740 Tim Harcourt: could do a better deal than anyone else could negotiate 48 00:02:33,740 --> 00:02:34,380 Tim Harcourt: him wise. 49 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,540 Sean Alymer: Yeah. So the UK deal signed last week, sort of a 50 00:02:37,540 --> 00:02:40,350 Sean Alymer: win in a sense for Boris Johnson in the UK 51 00:02:40,419 --> 00:02:42,919 Sean Alymer: and Scott Morrison in Australia. Can you talk me through 52 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:44,360 Sean Alymer: some of the specifics of the deal? 53 00:02:44,740 --> 00:02:50,000 Tim Harcourt: Yeah, sure. For Australia, the big wins were in agriculture 54 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,760 Tim Harcourt: because, as you know, under the old European Union system 55 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:56,720 Tim Harcourt: the common agricultural policy meant that you could send all 56 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:00,001 Tim Harcourt: the cows from France around the world business class twice (crosstalk) 57 00:03:00,001 --> 00:03:05,160 Tim Harcourt: policy. So there's always been very high tariffs in Europe. So 58 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,160 Tim Harcourt: the British said they would reduce the tariffs and give 59 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,169 Tim Harcourt: us a crack at the quotas in beef and dairy and 60 00:03:12,169 --> 00:03:15,300 Tim Harcourt: lamb and sugar and so on. I didn't really expect 61 00:03:15,300 --> 00:03:18,639 Tim Harcourt: that six weeks ago. I thought the English and Welsh farm 62 00:03:18,650 --> 00:03:21,650 Tim Harcourt: lobby would be too strong, but Boris has said that 63 00:03:21,650 --> 00:03:26,639 Tim Harcourt: that's fine. Significantly, the UK and Australia has a lot of 64 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:28,470 Tim Harcourt: people movement. Not that we can do it now with COVID, 65 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,500 Tim Harcourt: but usually we do. So they've allowed people up to 66 00:03:32,500 --> 00:03:35,290 Tim Harcourt: 35 to be able to work and live in each 67 00:03:35,290 --> 00:03:35,730 Tim Harcourt: other's countries. 68 00:03:36,550 --> 00:03:39,140 Sean Alymer: Yeah. I remember in my day I was fortunate I 69 00:03:39,140 --> 00:03:42,809 Sean Alymer: had an EC passport, but you had to be 27 70 00:03:42,810 --> 00:03:45,170 Sean Alymer: or less. So I think it then went to 30, 71 00:03:45,170 --> 00:03:48,230 Sean Alymer: and then 35. It actually allows mobility of labor. There's 72 00:03:48,230 --> 00:03:49,570 Sean Alymer: quite a significant shift there. 73 00:03:50,130 --> 00:03:51,860 Tim Harcourt: It is, yes. It's a bit like if you're 28, 74 00:03:51,860 --> 00:03:55,560 Tim Harcourt: you could no longer be in Young Labor, but could join the Young Liberals. It's 75 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:56,541 Tim Harcourt: wrong to be 28. 76 00:03:56,541 --> 00:03:58,809 Sean Alymer: I need to swap over. Malcolm Turnbull might have done that. 77 00:03:58,810 --> 00:04:03,280 Tim Harcourt: He might have done that. He might have done it a few times. Yeah, That's quite significant. The thing about the UK 78 00:04:05,350 --> 00:04:08,600 Tim Harcourt: and Australia is that all the services and investment and 79 00:04:08,830 --> 00:04:13,220 Tim Harcourt: infrastructure investment, like Macquarie and people like that, is pretty significant. 80 00:04:13,570 --> 00:04:16,650 Tim Harcourt: It's not big volumes and values like China or Korea 81 00:04:17,070 --> 00:04:20,510 Tim Harcourt: or Japan with the iron ore, but in foreign investment 82 00:04:20,620 --> 00:04:25,550 Tim Harcourt: in terms of services, architecture, and telecommunications and professional lawyers 83 00:04:25,550 --> 00:04:28,029 Tim Harcourt: going over, it's pretty big in the UK. So I 84 00:04:28,150 --> 00:04:30,420 Tim Harcourt: think that's where they wanted to get all of the gains. 85 00:04:30,620 --> 00:04:32,670 Sean Alymer: Okay. Were there many compromises we had to make? 86 00:04:33,270 --> 00:04:36,410 Tim Harcourt: Oh, here and there. I think in some ways we went 87 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:38,349 Tim Harcourt: probably further than we would've liked in some of the 88 00:04:38,350 --> 00:04:42,950 Tim Harcourt: services areas. Interesting to me, when I did The Airport Economist UK 89 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:45,839 Tim Harcourt: episode, we went to Cambridge because they have the big 90 00:04:46,150 --> 00:04:50,400 Tim Harcourt: biomedical hub that does a lot with south Australia. There wasn't a 91 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:53,489 Tim Harcourt: lot on health sciences in the agreement. It could be that Donald 92 00:04:53,490 --> 00:04:56,250 Tim Harcourt: Trump scared the Brits when he said the IHS is 93 00:04:56,250 --> 00:05:00,440 Tim Harcourt: on the table. You might remember Mark Latham, as opposition 94 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:05,219 Tim Harcourt: leader, keeping the PBS out of the US negotiations. So I 95 00:05:05,890 --> 00:05:08,130 Tim Harcourt: thought there might have been a bit more movement there, but they're pretty 96 00:05:08,130 --> 00:05:10,159 Tim Harcourt: careful to keep the health system separate. 97 00:05:11,450 --> 00:05:13,210 Sean Alymer: Okay. Now a lots been made of the fact that it's the first 98 00:05:13,330 --> 00:05:17,001 Sean Alymer: FTA for Britain since Brexit. How significant is that? 99 00:05:17,001 --> 00:05:20,630 Tim Harcourt: They had to get off their duck, because during Brexit Boris 100 00:05:20,630 --> 00:05:23,529 Tim Harcourt: Johnson kept saying, " If only we can have broke the shackles of 101 00:05:23,529 --> 00:05:26,839 Tim Harcourt: Brussels, we can become the global trade hub of the empire like 102 00:05:28,310 --> 00:05:30,460 Tim Harcourt: the land of Adam Smith." So he played this up 103 00:05:30,460 --> 00:05:33,610 Tim Harcourt: a lot and he's got to get cracking with Japan, 104 00:05:33,610 --> 00:05:37,830 Tim Harcourt: with Australia, and really show that Britain can stand alone. 105 00:05:37,830 --> 00:05:40,720 Tim Harcourt: At the end of the day, most of their trade is across 106 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,529 Tim Harcourt: the channel. So they've got to work pretty hard to convince these 107 00:05:44,529 --> 00:05:45,730 Tim Harcourt: other countries to sign up. 108 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,820 Sean Alymer: Yeah. In a sense it's almost symbolic as much as 109 00:05:49,820 --> 00:05:51,100 Sean Alymer: it is financial. 110 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,870 Tim Harcourt: Oh, definitely. Definitely. A lot of it is about values, 111 00:05:54,870 --> 00:05:59,210 Tim Harcourt: democratic systems, openness. In the same way that Biden was 112 00:05:59,210 --> 00:06:02,460 Tim Harcourt: chipping China and Russia at the NATO meeting, it's very 113 00:06:02,460 --> 00:06:07,570 Tim Harcourt: much about democratic values and like- minded nations forming alliances, 114 00:06:07,570 --> 00:06:10,240 Tim Harcourt: because you know who is on the rise. 115 00:06:10,540 --> 00:06:14,440 Sean Alymer: Yeah. So Australia's talking to France, though I presume that's 116 00:06:14,529 --> 00:06:17,590 Sean Alymer: nowhere near as far advanced as the British one? 117 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:22,730 Tim Harcourt: Well Sean, I'm a south Australian originally and south Australia's opening an office 118 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:23,760 Tim Harcourt: in Paris. 119 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:25,109 Sean Alymer: It's because of all those ships, those subs, isn't it? 120 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,370 Tim Harcourt: Yeah. Yeah. A lot of us defense related. We had a 121 00:06:29,370 --> 00:06:33,140 Tim Harcourt: very effective guy working, John Rees, working in the south 122 00:06:33,140 --> 00:06:37,130 Tim Harcourt: Australian office in London, in Australia house, who speaks French. 123 00:06:37,130 --> 00:06:38,979 Tim Harcourt: He's got a legion of honor and all these awards 124 00:06:38,980 --> 00:06:42,190 Tim Harcourt: from France. He's been working on French food and beverage 125 00:06:42,190 --> 00:06:47,659 Tim Harcourt: pharmaceuticals, telecommunications, defense for a long, long time. So I think a lot of the 126 00:06:47,660 --> 00:06:50,150 Tim Harcourt: groundwork has been done in France, believe it or not. 127 00:06:50,900 --> 00:06:52,770 Sean Alymer: Right. What sort of things do you think would get out of a deal with France? 128 00:06:52,771 --> 00:06:59,940 Tim Harcourt: Oh, it's got to be a lot of defense procurement and a lot of infrastructure and 129 00:07:00,380 --> 00:07:03,349 Tim Harcourt: aviation and amazing French companies, not just in Paris, but 130 00:07:03,350 --> 00:07:05,750 Tim Harcourt: in Toulouse and places like that. So I think still 131 00:07:05,750 --> 00:07:08,960 Tim Harcourt: significant economy. The amazing thing I've always found, I found this in the 132 00:07:08,970 --> 00:07:11,710 Tim Harcourt: Brexit special, that when you look at small businesses in 133 00:07:11,710 --> 00:07:15,300 Tim Harcourt: Australia, there's 6, 000 in the UK and that is 134 00:07:15,300 --> 00:07:17,960 Tim Harcourt: twice that of Germany, which is a much bigger economy, 135 00:07:18,650 --> 00:07:22,090 Tim Harcourt: and France and so on. So when I was at Austrade, people just always 136 00:07:22,090 --> 00:07:25,850 Tim Harcourt: complained about channel fever and the Carly Effect, everyone just 137 00:07:25,850 --> 00:07:29,060 Tim Harcourt: going to London and forgetting the continent, as the Brits 138 00:07:29,060 --> 00:07:32,290 Tim Harcourt: used to call it. At the end of the day, people go where 139 00:07:32,930 --> 00:07:36,330 Tim Harcourt: they're comfortable with the language and the institutions, the legal system, 140 00:07:36,740 --> 00:07:37,610 Tim Harcourt: and that's the UK. 141 00:07:38,090 --> 00:07:41,890 Sean Alymer: Yeah. So tell me, have we got any other FTAs we negotiating at the moment? 142 00:07:42,300 --> 00:07:45,130 Tim Harcourt: Well, we'll have to do the rest of Europe of course. We've had Europhobia. 143 00:07:45,130 --> 00:07:49,990 Tim Harcourt: We'll have to show some Eurovision. Do something- 144 00:07:49,990 --> 00:07:51,470 Sean Alymer: Please. Lots of Eurovision. 145 00:07:51,470 --> 00:07:54,550 Tim Harcourt: Lots of Eurovision. There's always been talk of a golf 146 00:07:54,550 --> 00:07:57,830 Tim Harcourt: cooperation one. We did The Airport Economist UAE episode, so 147 00:07:57,830 --> 00:08:00,870 Tim Harcourt: that's a bit of a hub. So there's a few, 148 00:08:01,100 --> 00:08:04,530 Tim Harcourt: I guess hubs coming along that are pretty effective. Of 149 00:08:04,530 --> 00:08:07,310 Tim Harcourt: course depends on how quick Britain is. Britain, they've got to 150 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:09,160 Tim Harcourt: go run around, do some trade deals in Asia now, 151 00:08:09,250 --> 00:08:11,040 Tim Harcourt: because they let us off the hook for a long 152 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:14,480 Tim Harcourt: time being stuck in Europe. Australia got the march on 153 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,280 Tim Harcourt: them in Asia, so now the Brits will have to be competition. 154 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,340 Sean Alymer: What do you think about the FTA we've done with, or the trade deal 155 00:08:20,340 --> 00:08:22,350 Sean Alymer: at least, maybe not totally free trade, but the trade 156 00:08:22,350 --> 00:08:26,050 Sean Alymer: deal with the USA, which must be, I'm guessing Tim, 157 00:08:26,050 --> 00:08:27,820 Sean Alymer: it's a decade old or something like that? 158 00:08:28,210 --> 00:08:29,860 Tim Harcourt: 2005 we sold it. 159 00:08:29,860 --> 00:08:31,230 Sean Alymer: 2005. So 15 years. 160 00:08:31,710 --> 00:08:31,970 Tim Harcourt: Yeah. 161 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:34,270 Sean Alymer: How has that evolved? Has that been good for Australia? 162 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:38,660 Tim Harcourt: Well, the global financial crisis clobbered the potential gains in 163 00:08:38,660 --> 00:08:41,469 Tim Harcourt: some ways, but there was some useful things with the E- 164 00:08:41,470 --> 00:08:43,679 Tim Harcourt: 3 visas and things. We got some good deals, like 165 00:08:44,420 --> 00:08:47,679 Tim Harcourt: we did with Britain, with working visas and things. So I think that's 166 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:50,800 Tim Harcourt: where a lot of the benefits from those things come. Famously, they left 167 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:51,410 Tim Harcourt: sugar out. 168 00:08:51,570 --> 00:08:51,959 Sean Alymer: That's right. 169 00:08:52,030 --> 00:08:54,959 Tim Harcourt: So Mark (inaudible) wasn't very happy about that. The same year we 170 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,470 Tim Harcourt: signed one with Thailand. The Thailand one's been very successful, 171 00:08:57,470 --> 00:09:01,130 Tim Harcourt: but Thailand doesn't get the same publicly the US gets 172 00:09:01,130 --> 00:09:01,440 Tim Harcourt: because of the politics. 173 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:12,670 Sean Alymer: Stay with me, Tim. We'll be back in a minute. My guest this morning is Tim Harcourt, Industry Professor 174 00:09:12,670 --> 00:09:15,809 Sean Alymer: and Chief Economist at the University of Technology Sydney and 175 00:09:15,809 --> 00:09:18,559 Sean Alymer: host of The Airport Economist. Now look, while I've got 176 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,300 Sean Alymer: you, on a recent episode of your ausbiz TV show, 177 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:25,000 Sean Alymer: After the Pandemic, you spoke to the aforementioned of Malcolm Turnbull 178 00:09:25,490 --> 00:09:29,580 Sean Alymer: about Australia's relationship with China. He has been generally very 179 00:09:29,580 --> 00:09:32,870 Sean Alymer: sensible about that relationship over a long time and where 180 00:09:32,870 --> 00:09:35,940 Sean Alymer: the trade can take off again. Having spoken to him, 181 00:09:35,940 --> 00:09:39,761 Sean Alymer: what's your take on it, and what do you think his take was? 182 00:09:39,761 --> 00:09:42,750 Tim Harcourt: Well, it's interesting in Australia because we've got... On the show, I interviewed 183 00:09:42,750 --> 00:09:47,679 Tim Harcourt: people like David Koch, Port Adelaide Football Club chairman, Olivia Wang 184 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:52,000 Tim Harcourt: the head of Fortescue Metals, Elizabeth Gaines, Olivia's right hand 185 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:54,820 Tim Harcourt: woman, and they all talked about the commercial relationship, how 186 00:09:54,820 --> 00:09:57,929 Tim Harcourt: important it's Australia. We know with the iron ore and the services and the 187 00:09:57,929 --> 00:10:03,050 Tim Harcourt: rocks and crops. Then there is a security community who 188 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:09,650 Tim Harcourt: really, honest Sean, don't think a lot about economics. Who are so concerned about China's military threat 189 00:10:09,650 --> 00:10:12,580 Tim Harcourt: that they think we should just diversify to Indonesia or 190 00:10:12,580 --> 00:10:15,970 Tim Harcourt: India tomorrow, which is just not possible. So you felt 191 00:10:15,970 --> 00:10:19,840 Tim Harcourt: that tension in the program between the blue hats, the 192 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:24,730 Tim Harcourt: defense types, and then the commercial people. Turnbull's probably the 193 00:10:24,730 --> 00:10:27,820 Tim Harcourt: person who really walked the line reasonably well. He just 194 00:10:27,820 --> 00:10:31,929 Tim Harcourt: said fantastic, important relationship with us and talked a lot about his 195 00:10:31,929 --> 00:10:35,890 Tim Harcourt: personal ties to Xi Jinping. He just said, doesn't mean 196 00:10:35,890 --> 00:10:38,230 Tim Harcourt: you do what they say. You've got to stand up 197 00:10:38,230 --> 00:10:40,150 Tim Harcourt: for your own values at the end of the day, 198 00:10:40,150 --> 00:10:45,430 Tim Harcourt: and you get more respect doing that than caving in. 199 00:10:45,430 --> 00:10:48,640 Sean Alymer: Yeah, it is interesting. Annastacia Palaszczuk, the Queensland Premier, and Mark McGowan, the WA Premier, 200 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,679 Sean Alymer: last week were both critical. They should strand both those 201 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:54,860 Sean Alymer: sides, of the blue hats and the commercial side, but 202 00:10:54,860 --> 00:10:57,520 Sean Alymer: both of those actually came out and were critical of the 203 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:01,330 Sean Alymer: federal government, about the stance that's been taken. Obviously they're 204 00:11:01,330 --> 00:11:04,020 Sean Alymer: resource states, so they are hit by it. I just thought 205 00:11:04,190 --> 00:11:06,310 Sean Alymer: it was interesting that politicians were coming out that way. 206 00:11:06,809 --> 00:11:10,450 Tim Harcourt: Unusual isn't it? Usually state premiers aren't involved in foreign policy 207 00:11:10,450 --> 00:11:13,189 Tim Harcourt: and then Dan Andrews signed up for the Belt and 208 00:11:13,190 --> 00:11:16,350 Tim Harcourt: Road, which was very unusual. China wants to do this because they want 209 00:11:16,830 --> 00:11:19,400 Tim Harcourt: to play the states against each other. I think in 210 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,720 Tim Harcourt: some ways the Premier's comments were more to how should 211 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:26,060 Tim Harcourt: diplomatically handle China, even if you don't agree with them. 212 00:11:26,540 --> 00:11:28,280 Tim Harcourt: I think they probably thought that rhetoric was a bit 213 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:31,220 Tim Harcourt: too hard and going in and saying, let's just have an inquiry 214 00:11:31,270 --> 00:11:33,470 Tim Harcourt: into Wuhan without getting everyone else on board, they were 215 00:11:33,470 --> 00:11:37,319 Tim Harcourt: critical of. Malcolm Turnbull, was probably the first issue I've 216 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:39,760 Tim Harcourt: seen him not critical Scott Morrison on. He thought the 217 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:41,849 Tim Harcourt: government had no choice but to act like they have. 218 00:11:42,630 --> 00:11:45,760 Sean Alymer: Interesting, because Malcolm Turnbull isn't known for being a huge supporter of 219 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:46,420 Sean Alymer: Scott Morrison. 220 00:11:46,890 --> 00:11:48,559 Tim Harcourt: No, for some reason. Yeah, and on every other issue. (crosstalk) but on this 221 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:53,829 Tim Harcourt: one he was reasonably supportive, and also he had his own dilemmas 222 00:11:56,230 --> 00:11:59,809 Tim Harcourt: on how China changed. He's talking about at APEC in Vietnam 223 00:11:59,900 --> 00:12:03,440 Tim Harcourt: in 2017, how you saw a sharp change in the 224 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,840 Tim Harcourt: Chinese stance. A lot of the people in the program like David Koch 225 00:12:07,059 --> 00:12:10,089 Tim Harcourt: would say, oh, you've got to handle China delicately with 226 00:12:10,090 --> 00:12:13,540 Tim Harcourt: respect and trust, which is right. Of course, it's not 227 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:16,580 Tim Harcourt: just what Australia does. It's also how China acts as well. 228 00:12:16,950 --> 00:12:19,550 Sean Alymer: Yeah. We had Mike Smith on the show. Now Mike 229 00:12:19,630 --> 00:12:21,380 Sean Alymer: is the AFR correspondent. 230 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:22,309 Tim Harcourt: Yes, that's right. 231 00:12:22,710 --> 00:12:25,100 Sean Alymer: What I thought was really interesting in that conversation, was 232 00:12:25,350 --> 00:12:27,990 Sean Alymer: normal living in China is like normal living in Sydney. 233 00:12:28,300 --> 00:12:30,939 Sean Alymer: Obviously culturally different, but it's not like there's a thought 234 00:12:30,940 --> 00:12:34,359 Sean Alymer: police or secret police around it. It's just no normal life, and I 235 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:35,640 Sean Alymer: think we forget that sometimes. 236 00:12:35,929 --> 00:12:42,210 Tim Harcourt: We do. Yeah. A lot of my Chinese friends were commenting, even some I know from Wuhan, very 237 00:12:42,210 --> 00:12:44,910 Tim Harcourt: different to their parents, who had very different perspectives of 238 00:12:45,130 --> 00:12:48,010 Tim Harcourt: the party and so on. A lot of them felt they'd had 239 00:12:48,070 --> 00:12:51,709 Tim Harcourt: freedom coming to Australia, particularly studying at university here. Then 240 00:12:51,710 --> 00:12:53,990 Tim Harcourt: they said all the woke stuff makes them feel like 241 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:57,699 Tim Harcourt: they're back in China, in terms of freedom of speech. 242 00:12:57,700 --> 00:13:01,120 Tim Harcourt: So they thought the west was almost deliberalizing its own 243 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,679 Tim Harcourt: freedoms voluntarily without pressure from the outside. 244 00:13:04,940 --> 00:13:07,000 Sean Alymer: That's interesting, Tim, what are you doing now? You can't 245 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:08,569 Sean Alymer: travel. You must be going crazy. 246 00:13:08,630 --> 00:13:12,900 Tim Harcourt: Oh, it's all right. We've done the show. Unfortunately, Koch says the 247 00:13:12,929 --> 00:13:13,651 Tim Harcourt: show's better now that I don't travel. 248 00:13:13,651 --> 00:13:20,520 Sean Alymer: By the way, I love the fact that you'd say David Koch is the president of Port 249 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:21,449 Sean Alymer: Football Club. 250 00:13:24,500 --> 00:13:24,501 Tim Harcourt: Well, right, he is. 251 00:13:24,501 --> 00:13:26,500 Sean Alymer: Factually correct. The rest of the country outside south Australia know him as the 252 00:13:26,500 --> 00:13:28,870 Sean Alymer: bloke on TV. You do know that don't you? You are 253 00:13:28,870 --> 00:13:30,729 Sean Alymer: as (inaudible) as they come, I'd like to say, as 254 00:13:30,730 --> 00:13:31,410 Sean Alymer: a south Australian. 255 00:13:32,110 --> 00:13:35,449 Tim Harcourt: Port Adelaide's been around since 1870, so it's got a long history. 256 00:13:36,290 --> 00:13:39,990 Sean Alymer: Fair enough. Who am I to argue? Tim, thank you for 257 00:13:39,990 --> 00:13:40,710 Sean Alymer: talking to Fear and Greed. 258 00:13:41,220 --> 00:13:41,550 Tim Harcourt: Thank you very much, Sean. Appreciate it. 259 00:13:41,550 --> 00:13:46,790 Sean Alymer: That was Professor Tim Harcourt from UTS, author, podcast host, 260 00:13:46,970 --> 00:13:50,969 Sean Alymer: and television presenter. Find out more at theairporteconomist, all one 261 00:13:50,970 --> 00:13:54,340 Sean Alymer: word, theairporteconomist. com. This is the Fear and Greed daily 262 00:13:54,340 --> 00:13:56,620 Sean Alymer: interview. Join me every morning for the full Free and 263 00:13:56,620 --> 00:13:59,410 Sean Alymer: Greed podcast, with all the business news you need to 264 00:13:59,410 --> 00:14:01,559 Sean Alymer: know. I'm Sean Alymer. Enjoy your day.