1
00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:08,959
Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.

2
00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:17,160
Speaker 1: It's Wednesday, February twelve. Donald Trump says Anthony Albanezi is

3
00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:20,560
Speaker 1: a very fine man, and he's considering an exemption for

4
00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,720
Speaker 1: Australia from his new twenty five percent tariff on steel

5
00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:28,040
Speaker 1: and aluminium. But the President's Executive Order accuses Australia of

6
00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:32,720
Speaker 1: disregarding its promise to keep aluminium exports to a reasonable level.

7
00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,760
Speaker 1: To unpack what that means and what happens now, check

8
00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:39,440
Speaker 1: out all our reporting and analysis of this big story

9
00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:42,320
Speaker 1: right now at the Australian dot com dot a U.

10
00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:50,639
Speaker 1: Former ABC chair Ititebatrose says she didn't want casual ABC

11
00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:55,240
Speaker 1: presenter Antoinette Lettouf sacked, but she was concerned Latouf was

12
00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:58,920
Speaker 1: an activist who didn't live up to the ABC's responsibility

13
00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,560
Speaker 1: to be impartial. On Tuesday, the eighty three year old

14
00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:06,120
Speaker 1: doyenne of Australian Media locked horns with a barrister for

15
00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,760
Speaker 1: Latouf in the Federal Court where she's suing the ABC

16
00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:20,199
Speaker 1: for unfair dismissal. Today, the best bits before we begin,

17
00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:23,600
Speaker 1: a quick note, we've used voice actors throughout this episode

18
00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:33,040
Speaker 1: to bring you the words spoken in Court. Ota Buttros

19
00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:42,400
Speaker 1: is one of the grand old ladies of Australian media.

20
00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:45,240
Speaker 2: Sat state your occupation for the Court.

21
00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:47,080
Speaker 3: I'm a journalist.

22
00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,559
Speaker 1: Buttrose was the first female editor of an Australian newspaper

23
00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:55,000
Speaker 1: at the Daily and Sunday Telegraphs. She was editor of

24
00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:59,320
Speaker 1: Cleo and the Australian Women's Weekly. Cold Chisel wrote a

25
00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:02,880
Speaker 1: song about her regular TV ads for the stories she

26
00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:17,520
Speaker 1: was working on. From twenty nineteen to twenty twenty four,

27
00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:21,080
Speaker 1: Buttros was chair of the ABC and that's why she's

28
00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:25,440
Speaker 1: in court being cross examined about the National Broadcaster's scandal

29
00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:29,760
Speaker 1: of the moment, the sacking of casual presenter Antoinette Latouf.

30
00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:36,080
Speaker 1: Buttros was cross examined by Council for Latouf Philip Boncado. Buttrose,

31
00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,320
Speaker 1: who's just celebrated her eighty third birthday and was sitting

32
00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:43,079
Speaker 1: in a wheelchair wearing a Royal blue suit, was giving

33
00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:43,960
Speaker 1: him nothing.

34
00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:49,519
Speaker 4: Leaving aside dramatic cases, in the ordinary case of things,

35
00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,160
Speaker 4: you would expect if an employee of the ABC had

36
00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:55,720
Speaker 4: been alleged to have breached a policy that before they

37
00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:58,200
Speaker 4: were taken off air they were fired, they would get

38
00:02:58,240 --> 00:02:58,880
Speaker 4: a right of hearing.

39
00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:01,280
Speaker 3: I don't understand the question.

40
00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:06,040
Speaker 4: Your expectation was, whilst you were chair that if an

41
00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:08,840
Speaker 4: employee of the ABC had been alleged to have breached

42
00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:12,200
Speaker 4: a policy of the ABC before a disciplinary sanction was

43
00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:14,799
Speaker 4: imposed on them, your view was that they would be

44
00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:16,280
Speaker 4: afforded procedural fairness.

45
00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,120
Speaker 3: That's a hypothetical question and I can't answer it.

46
00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:21,240
Speaker 4: Want to take a stab at it.

47
00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:26,360
Speaker 1: No, Buttro said when Latouf was on air, she received

48
00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:27,560
Speaker 1: many emails.

49
00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:30,600
Speaker 3: I observed that the letter writers felt we were not

50
00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,720
Speaker 3: being impartial, and I was concerned about what that would

51
00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:35,400
Speaker 3: do for the ABC's reputation.

52
00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:39,040
Speaker 4: Did you infer that there was a campaign against miss Latouf?

53
00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:42,920
Speaker 3: No, I didn't. Compared to the complaints we got about

54
00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:45,960
Speaker 3: our coverage of King Charles the Third's coronation, this was

55
00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:46,960
Speaker 3: a very small matter.

56
00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,760
Speaker 4: Did you infer from them that the complainants wanted Miss

57
00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:52,119
Speaker 4: Latouf removed from air?

58
00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:55,280
Speaker 3: They wanted to know why she had a program because

59
00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:58,720
Speaker 3: they didn't perceive her to be impartial. All I cared

60
00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:00,920
Speaker 3: about was whether we were being in impartial or whether

61
00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,559
Speaker 3: we were not. We'd upset a lot of people.

62
00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:05,880
Speaker 4: Because you would engage someone who was critical of the

63
00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:07,080
Speaker 4: Israeli government.

64
00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,080
Speaker 3: Who was not impartial? What was not.

65
00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,560
Speaker 4: Impartial about the point of view she was presenting, Miss Buttros.

66
00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:16,479
Speaker 3: I think in relation to the Israel Gaza conflict, she

67
00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:18,000
Speaker 3: was an activist.

68
00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,039
Speaker 4: That is, she was advocating for the rights of the

69
00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:21,960
Speaker 4: Palestinian people. Is that your evidence?

70
00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:24,880
Speaker 3: Her view one way or the other was not my concern.

71
00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,240
Speaker 3: My concern was that we were not being impartial.

72
00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:32,599
Speaker 1: Buttro said Managing Director David Anderson had asked her to

73
00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:37,080
Speaker 1: forward the complaints to ABC Chief Content Officer Chris Oliver Taylor.

74
00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:39,920
Speaker 3: He wanted him to learn the folly of not checking

75
00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:41,839
Speaker 3: the references of someone that we'd hired.

76
00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:46,760
Speaker 1: Bolcado wanted to know why, Buttro's kept using the same word.

77
00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:49,800
Speaker 4: Has someone told you to continue telling the court your

78
00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:51,200
Speaker 4: concern was impartiality?

79
00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:53,200
Speaker 3: No, I don't need to be told what I think.

80
00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:54,240
Speaker 3: That's my own view.

81
00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:57,480
Speaker 4: You don't support the hiring of activists of any cause

82
00:04:57,520 --> 00:04:59,000
Speaker 4: on the ABC, do you?

83
00:04:59,040 --> 00:04:59,680
Speaker 3: No? I don't.

84
00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:02,719
Speaker 4: Weren't you interested to find out whether Miss Latoufe was

85
00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:07,560
Speaker 4: in fact a pro Palestinian activist? No, didn't concern you. Nope,

86
00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,320
Speaker 4: you knew she was Lebanese, though didn't you.

87
00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,000
Speaker 3: No, I didn't. I didn't know what she was. People's

88
00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:17,440
Speaker 3: color doesn't really worry me at all.

89
00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:19,960
Speaker 1: Long before the ABC hired her for five days of

90
00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:23,800
Speaker 1: casual work in December twenty twenty three, Anteinette Leatouf had

91
00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:27,240
Speaker 1: been loud and clear about the Israel Palestine issue on

92
00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:28,040
Speaker 1: social media.

93
00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:29,560
Speaker 3: You can and.

94
00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:33,560
Speaker 5: Should condemn both Hummas and Israel's government. Both are extremists.

95
00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:35,080
Speaker 5: You can and should mourn.

96
00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:39,040
Speaker 1: Civilian deaths visa posts on TikTok from October and November

97
00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:43,400
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, before her December shifts on ABC Sydney

98
00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:44,159
Speaker 1: local radio.

99
00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:45,279
Speaker 5: Not about all sides.

100
00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:46,359
Speaker 3: You can and should know.

101
00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:48,680
Speaker 5: It's a war crime to cut off food, water and

102
00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,280
Speaker 5: electricity to women, babies, and the elderly. Number two pretend

103
00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:54,799
Speaker 5: to be hearing in paired when all major human rights

104
00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:59,599
Speaker 5: organizations speak. Allow me to demonstrate apartheid, A party for

105
00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,640
Speaker 5: five that sounds like they're having funn in Gaza, jenocide,

106
00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:06,240
Speaker 5: Tanna side, Well, that's a new sport, is it.

107
00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:11,040
Speaker 1: In November twenty twenty three, Latoof explained on TikTok why

108
00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:15,880
Speaker 1: she'd signed a petition calling on journalists to do better for.

109
00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,560
Speaker 5: Me as an independent and freelance journalist. Nobody can fire me,

110
00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:22,080
Speaker 5: and so I will certainly.

111
00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,120
Speaker 1: She said she was shocked that one media organization had

112
00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:29,240
Speaker 1: told journalists who'd signed the petition they couldn't report on

113
00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:30,200
Speaker 1: the war directly.

114
00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:33,120
Speaker 5: So if they don't want to work with me because

115
00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:36,360
Speaker 5: I have voiced concerns about all of those things, then

116
00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:41,000
Speaker 5: honestly fuck them.

117
00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:44,640
Speaker 1: In December twenty twenty three, Latouf, whom the ABC says

118
00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,039
Speaker 1: had been identified as part of their bid to increase

119
00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,280
Speaker 1: the diversity of on air talent, began her five day

120
00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:54,360
Speaker 1: fill in stint on ABC Radio Sydney. Latoof says she

121
00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:56,880
Speaker 1: understood the brief of the show to be bright and breezy,

122
00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:01,520
Speaker 1: cats and Christmas puddings. Three days into her shift, Latouf

123
00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:06,240
Speaker 1: posted this on Instagram. We've used a voice actor Human

124
00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:10,240
Speaker 1: Rights Watch reporting starvation as a tool of war. After

125
00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:12,960
Speaker 1: that post, Latouf was told she wouldn't need to show

126
00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,400
Speaker 1: up for the final two days of the stint, although

127
00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:19,400
Speaker 1: she was paid. She took legal action for unfair dismissal,

128
00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:22,440
Speaker 1: and although the ABC initially denied she had been sacked,

129
00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,920
Speaker 1: the Fair Work Commission found she had in fact been dismissed.

130
00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,040
Speaker 1: Attempts at mediation failed, and the matters wound up in

131
00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,360
Speaker 1: a federal court, where Latouf is seeking redress for unfair

132
00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:36,120
Speaker 1: dismissal in the federal court. ABC executives has spent a

133
00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:39,200
Speaker 1: lot of time trying to explain why that post in

134
00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,640
Speaker 1: December twenty twenty three was a problem. They've said they

135
00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:46,960
Speaker 1: told Latouf not to post anything controversial or anything relating

136
00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:51,320
Speaker 1: to the Israel Gaza conflict. Latouf has said her understanding

137
00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:54,880
Speaker 1: was different. She thought the ABC didn't want her to

138
00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:58,120
Speaker 1: be partisan or to take a side, but the posting

139
00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:02,160
Speaker 1: factual information would be fine. She said the Human Rights

140
00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,640
Speaker 1: Watch story had been reported by the ABC and BBC,

141
00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:08,960
Speaker 1: and therefore she thought it would be okay.

142
00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,120
Speaker 3: I have a whole clutch more complaints. Can't she come

143
00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:14,680
Speaker 3: down with flu or COVID or a stomach upset? We

144
00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:15,480
Speaker 3: owe her nothing.

145
00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:21,720
Speaker 1: That's an email sent by Eite Buttrose to managing director

146
00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,000
Speaker 1: David Anderson in December twenty twenty three, when they were

147
00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:29,480
Speaker 1: debating what should be done with Latouff. Boncado wanted to

148
00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,520
Speaker 1: know if Buttrose was wishing for Latouf to become unwell.

149
00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,080
Speaker 3: That was just a face saving idea. I thought it

150
00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:38,320
Speaker 3: might have been an idea for Antoinette to save face.

151
00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:40,080
Speaker 3: It's an easy way to save face.

152
00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:42,920
Speaker 4: Can I just say to you, you've given that evidence

153
00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,440
Speaker 4: today because you know the content of that email is appalling.

154
00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:48,480
Speaker 3: You can suggest whatever you like, but it's not true.

155
00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:57,439
Speaker 1: Coming up, the ABC has backflipped on a controversial element

156
00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:19,960
Speaker 1: of its defense. Antoinete Latouf's complaint says she was unfairly

157
00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,160
Speaker 1: sacked because of either her political views, her race as

158
00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,080
Speaker 1: a Lebanese Arab person of Middle Eastern descent, or a

159
00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:30,160
Speaker 1: combination of both. Discrimination. In other words, one of the

160
00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,520
Speaker 1: ABC's defenses was that this was untrue and that the

161
00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,520
Speaker 1: question of whether a Lebanese Arab or Middle Eastern race

162
00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:42,320
Speaker 1: even existed was a complex, multifaceted question of fact. The

163
00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:46,160
Speaker 1: ABC said in documents filed with the court, Miss Latouf

164
00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:50,200
Speaker 1: has led no evidence of any relevant fact that kicked

165
00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,880
Speaker 1: off a fresh stink, especially within the ABC, where about

166
00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:57,840
Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty employees who are union members demanded

167
00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:02,160
Speaker 1: the ABC drop the defense. One prominent ABC presenter Jan Fran,

168
00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,800
Speaker 1: who's also of Lebanese descent, said this on her own

169
00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:06,640
Speaker 1: social media.

170
00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:11,400
Speaker 6: But these lawyers are not just defending some they're defending

171
00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,560
Speaker 6: the ABC, and the ABC is required to be what's

172
00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,840
Speaker 6: called a model litigant because it's a government body, and

173
00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:24,920
Speaker 6: that means it's expected to behave in exemplary fashion, and arguably.

174
00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:26,599
Speaker 2: Is this exemplary.

175
00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:31,840
Speaker 1: In court on Tuesday, there was a change of heart.

176
00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,520
Speaker 1: Here's what the ABC's lawyer, I Neil sc told the

177
00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:37,880
Speaker 1: Federal Court, as read by a voice actor.

178
00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:42,320
Speaker 2: We are now instructed as follows. The ABC does not

179
00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,120
Speaker 2: put an issue. That is, it does not dispute or

180
00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:49,000
Speaker 2: contest that the Lebanese, Middle Eastern or Arab races exist

181
00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,840
Speaker 2: or that Miss Latouf is one or more of those races.

182
00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:57,040
Speaker 1: The ABC put up a statement on its website soon after.

183
00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:02,920
Speaker 7: The ABC recognizes that regrettably this legal argument has caused

184
00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:07,080
Speaker 7: distress in some sections of the community and our workforce.

185
00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:12,160
Speaker 7: This was not the ABC's intention. The ABC does, however,

186
00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:16,000
Speaker 7: deny that any action was taken against Miss Latouf because

187
00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:20,000
Speaker 7: of her political opinion, race, or national extraction.

188
00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:24,600
Speaker 1: At the end of Buttrose's evidence, Boncado asked if she

189
00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:26,160
Speaker 1: wanted Latouf fired.

190
00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,440
Speaker 4: No, you sought to do that because of her views

191
00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,760
Speaker 4: on Israel. No, I didn't because of her views on

192
00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:34,880
Speaker 4: Israel's war on Gaza.

193
00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:35,160
Speaker 1: No.

194
00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:37,720
Speaker 4: Because she was a pro Palestinian activist.

195
00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:38,280
Speaker 2: No.

196
00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,760
Speaker 4: And because she supported the human rights of Palestinians.

197
00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:42,280
Speaker 1: No.

198
00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:45,760
Speaker 4: The evidence you have given in respect of those denials

199
00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:46,600
Speaker 4: is untrue.

200
00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,679
Speaker 3: I have told the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

201
00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:01,240
Speaker 1: The case continues on Wednesday. You can follow it live

202
00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,400
Speaker 1: plus all the best analysis and news from the world

203
00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:08,000
Speaker 1: of media any time at the Australian dot com dot

204
00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:08,320
Speaker 1: a u