WEBVTT - The Trial: How to judge a lie

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<v Speaker 1>Even if you think the conduct makes her look guilty,

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<v Speaker 1>it does not necessarily mean that the accused is guilty.

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<v Speaker 2>Lies one of the central themes in the trial of

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<v Speaker 2>Aaron Pattison what lies did she tell and who did

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<v Speaker 2>she tell them to? Aaron admits to telling some lies,

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<v Speaker 2>but the prosecution alleges she told many more. Today, Justice

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<v Speaker 2>Christopher Bill took the jury through what they should consider

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<v Speaker 2>and what they should not consider when grappling with Aaron's

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<v Speaker 2>alleged lies. During deliberations next week, I'm Brook Greebt Craig,

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<v Speaker 2>and this is the mushroom Cook. It's day thirty nine

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<v Speaker 2>and the end of week nine of Aaron Patterson's murder trial.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm here with court reporter Laura Colsseller.

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<v Speaker 3>Hey Brook, and I will say, in the words of

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<v Speaker 3>Justice Bill, that he udded today. Thank God it's Friday.

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<v Speaker 2>That definitely made me and the jury laugh. Justice Bill

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<v Speaker 2>continued his charge today and finished making his way through

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<v Speaker 2>the list of alleged incriminating conduct after touching upon the lies.

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<v Speaker 2>Aaron admits to telling police about never having foraged from

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<v Speaker 2>mushrooms and never having owned a dehydrator. He turned to

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<v Speaker 2>a lie. She does not admit her alleged lie about

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<v Speaker 2>being unwell in the days after the lunch, just.

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<v Speaker 3>Like he has over the last few days. He summarized

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<v Speaker 3>the evidence of doctors and nurses from both Lee and

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<v Speaker 3>Gatha Hospital and Monash Medical Center, as all of some

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<v Speaker 3>of the other medical witnesses in this case, such as

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<v Speaker 3>intensive care specialist Andrew Burston and forensic toxicologist Demitri Gurista Mulis.

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<v Speaker 3>He reminded them that Erin testified that in the hours

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<v Speaker 3>after the lunch, she binge ate a cake that Gail

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<v Speaker 3>had brought and forced herself to vomit. He then said

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<v Speaker 3>that she told the jury she experienced frequent diarrhea later

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<v Speaker 3>that night on July twenty nine, that continued into the

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<v Speaker 3>following day. Justice Bill told the jury that she said

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<v Speaker 3>she took a modium before or she drove her son

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<v Speaker 3>to his flying lesson in ti Ubp but ended up

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<v Speaker 3>having to pull over on the side of the road

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<v Speaker 3>to go to the toilet in the bushes. She said

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<v Speaker 3>she later stopped at a service station and briefly entered

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<v Speaker 3>a toilet to throw her soil tissues away. He also

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<v Speaker 3>reminded the jury that Erin said she drove herself to

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<v Speaker 3>Lee and Gatha Hospital on July thirty one because her

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<v Speaker 3>diary was continuing and she wanted to see if they

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<v Speaker 3>could give her some fluids.

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<v Speaker 2>Justice Bill turned to the arguments by the prosecution. He

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<v Speaker 2>said the prosecution claimed that Aaron was not suffering at

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<v Speaker 2>all and was feigning deathcat mushroom poisoning because she knew

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<v Speaker 2>remaining healthy would give her away. He said the prosecution

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<v Speaker 2>also argued that if Aaron had pulled over to go

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<v Speaker 2>to the toilet in the bushes, her son would have

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<v Speaker 2>remembered such an emergency stop. He added that the prosecution

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<v Speaker 2>also questioned why she left hospital after only five minutes

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<v Speaker 2>if she was truly unwell.

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<v Speaker 3>Justice Biale said that the defense argued that the prosecution

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<v Speaker 3>had unfairly not called an expert witness to testify specifically

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<v Speaker 3>about the symptoms of death cap mushroom poisoning. He said

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<v Speaker 3>that the defense, though, had pointed to a research article

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<v Speaker 3>referred to during the testimony of doctor Girista Mullis that

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<v Speaker 3>said Grade one death cap mushroom poisoning did comprise gastro

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<v Speaker 3>like symptoms. Justice Biale said that the defense also argued

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<v Speaker 3>that if Erin was lying, about vomiting after the lunch,

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<v Speaker 3>she would have told the jury that she threw off

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<v Speaker 3>immediately and could see Beef Wellington in her vomit. He

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<v Speaker 3>added that the defense suggested that if Erin was also

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<v Speaker 3>lying about being unwell, she would not have discharged herself

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<v Speaker 3>against medical advice, but would have instead told doctors to

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<v Speaker 3>pump her full of drugs to make her story more believable.

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<v Speaker 2>Finally, Justice Bill then gave his directions about the topic

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<v Speaker 2>of incriminating conduct. He said there were two ways the

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<v Speaker 2>jue could use the alleged lies if they found them

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<v Speaker 2>to be lies. Here's what he said about the first way.

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<v Speaker 2>These are his words, but not his voice.

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<v Speaker 1>The law says that you may use the accused lies

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<v Speaker 1>to help you assess her credibility. If you find that

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<v Speaker 1>an accused lied about something, you can use that fact

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<v Speaker 1>to help you decide whether or not you believe the

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<v Speaker 1>other things that the accused has said, whether those are

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<v Speaker 1>things she said to the witnesses in the case or

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<v Speaker 1>to you in her testimony. That is not to say

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<v Speaker 1>just because you find that the accused lied about one matter,

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<v Speaker 1>you must also find that she's been lying about everything else.

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<v Speaker 1>But you can use the fact that she lied. If

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<v Speaker 1>you find that she did, to help you determine the

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<v Speaker 1>truthfulness of the other things that she has said.

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<v Speaker 3>But Justice Beer warned the jury to not reason that

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<v Speaker 3>simply because a person has lied, they must be guilty.

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<v Speaker 3>He then turned to the second way the jury could

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<v Speaker 3>use the alleged lies if they found them to be lie.

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<v Speaker 1>The second way in which you may be able to

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<v Speaker 1>use one of the alleged lies which the prosecution relies

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<v Speaker 1>on as incriminating conduct, is as evidence that Aaron Patterson

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<v Speaker 1>committed the charged offenses, in other words, as implied admissions

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<v Speaker 1>of guilt. You may only use evidence that Aaron Patterson

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<v Speaker 1>lied in this way if you find that she did

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<v Speaker 1>tell a deliberate untruth and that the only reasonable explanation

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<v Speaker 1>for doing so is that she believed she had committed

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<v Speaker 1>the charged offenses.

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<v Speaker 3>Justice Beale also gave the jury another warning. He said

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<v Speaker 3>that if they find that Erin lied because she knew

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<v Speaker 3>she had committed the offenses charged, they still must consider

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<v Speaker 3>the rest of the evidence to decide whether the prosecution

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<v Speaker 3>has proved its case beyond reasonable doubt. He also told

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<v Speaker 3>the jury that the other alleged incriminating conduct that wasn't

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<v Speaker 3>lies could also be used as implied admissions of guilt.

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<v Speaker 3>He then broke down all of the conduct into two sections,

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<v Speaker 3>the conduct erin admits and the conduct she does not admit.

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<v Speaker 3>When it came to the conduct she admits, Justice Beal

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<v Speaker 3>reminded the jury that she accepts that she dumped her dehydrator,

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<v Speaker 3>that she left hospital after only five minutes, that she

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<v Speaker 3>factory reset phone B, and that she told lies in

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<v Speaker 3>her record of interview. When it came to assessing this conduct,

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<v Speaker 3>he said, the jury must remember that Aaron told them

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<v Speaker 3>that she panicked, that she had a history of hating hospitals,

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<v Speaker 3>and that she was using phone B because phone A

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<v Speaker 3>was damaged.

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<v Speaker 1>In summary, there are all sorts of reasons why a

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<v Speaker 1>person might behave in a way that makes the person

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<v Speaker 1>look guilty the accused, and yet not be guilty.

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<v Speaker 3>When it came to the conduct she does not admit,

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<v Speaker 3>Justice Beal reminded the jury that Aaron denies lying about

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<v Speaker 3>using the dried mushrooms in the beef Wellington, lying about

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<v Speaker 3>feeding the leftovers to her children, and lying about being unwell,

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<v Speaker 3>as well as other allegations put forward by the prosecution.

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<v Speaker 2>Justice Bill told the jury that if they find that

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<v Speaker 2>Aaron did engage in any of this conduct, they must

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<v Speaker 2>consider whether she may have done so because she feared

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<v Speaker 2>being wrongly blamed for a deliberate poisoning or losing the

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<v Speaker 2>custody of her children. He then turned to the topic

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<v Speaker 2>of credit lies. He told the jury that the law

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<v Speaker 2>draws a distinction between lies that formed part of incriminating conduct,

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<v Speaker 2>which we have just been talking about, and credit lies.

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<v Speaker 2>Here's what he said.

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<v Speaker 1>Credit lies, on the other hand, may only be used

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<v Speaker 1>for that first purpose in assessing credit of the accused.

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<v Speaker 1>If you were to find that the accused had told

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<v Speaker 1>any other lies other than those lies that I've been

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<v Speaker 1>talking about for the last month, whether to persons involved

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<v Speaker 1>in this case or to you in her testimony, you

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<v Speaker 1>may use those lies in assessing her credibility, but only

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<v Speaker 1>for that purpose.

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<v Speaker 3>Justice Bial flagged that there were four credit lies alleged

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<v Speaker 3>by the prosecution. The first, he said, was that Erin

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<v Speaker 3>lied to police about being very very helpful during the

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<v Speaker 3>Department of Health investigation. Those are the words she told

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<v Speaker 3>police during her record of interview. Justice Beale reminded the

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<v Speaker 3>jury that the prosecution argued that Erin had not been

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<v Speaker 3>very very helpful and knew she hadn't been because she

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<v Speaker 3>had not told Senior Public Health Adviser Sally Anne Atkinson

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<v Speaker 3>that foraged mushrooms may have accidentally ended up in the

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<v Speaker 3>beef Wellington meal.

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<v Speaker 2>Justice Bill said he would summarize the defense's argument on

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<v Speaker 2>this on Monday. He said he still has a bit

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<v Speaker 2>to go with his charge, but he has broken the

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<v Speaker 2>back of it.

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<v Speaker 3>He told the jury he expected to finish the remainder

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<v Speaker 3>of his charge on Monday, before two jurors would be

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<v Speaker 3>balloted off and deliberations could begin. But before the jury

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<v Speaker 3>left for the day, he instructed them to not let

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<v Speaker 3>anybody get in their ear over the weekend and recommended

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<v Speaker 3>a media blackout. He then offered some words of encouragement

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<v Speaker 3>before they walked out the door. He said they had

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<v Speaker 3>been doing a great job and that they should keep going.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, just a little note for our listeners, because we

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<v Speaker 2>are nearing the end of the trial, we won't have

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<v Speaker 2>a subscriber episode on Sunday, but rest assured there will

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<v Speaker 2>be more to come, but for now, go to the

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<v Speaker 2>mushroomcook dot com dot au for more