1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,600 Speaker 1: Even if you think the conduct makes her look guilty, 2 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: it does not necessarily mean that the accused is guilty. 3 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 2: Lies one of the central themes in the trial of 4 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 2: Aaron Pattison what lies did she tell and who did 5 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 2: she tell them to? Aaron admits to telling some lies, 6 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 2: but the prosecution alleges she told many more. Today, Justice 7 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 2: Christopher Bill took the jury through what they should consider 8 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 2: and what they should not consider when grappling with Aaron's 9 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 2: alleged lies. During deliberations next week, I'm Brook Greebt Craig, 10 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 2: and this is the mushroom Cook. It's day thirty nine 11 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:44,840 Speaker 2: and the end of week nine of Aaron Patterson's murder trial. 12 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 2: And I'm here with court reporter Laura Colsseller. 13 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 3: Hey Brook, and I will say, in the words of 14 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 3: Justice Bill, that he udded today. Thank God it's Friday. 15 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 2: That definitely made me and the jury laugh. Justice Bill 16 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 2: continued his charge today and finished making his way through 17 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 2: the list of alleged incriminating conduct after touching upon the lies. 18 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 2: Aaron admits to telling police about never having foraged from 19 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 2: mushrooms and never having owned a dehydrator. He turned to 20 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:17,919 Speaker 2: a lie. She does not admit her alleged lie about 21 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 2: being unwell in the days after the lunch, just. 22 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 3: Like he has over the last few days. He summarized 23 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 3: the evidence of doctors and nurses from both Lee and 24 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 3: Gatha Hospital and Monash Medical Center, as all of some 25 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 3: of the other medical witnesses in this case, such as 26 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:39,960 Speaker 3: intensive care specialist Andrew Burston and forensic toxicologist Demitri Gurista Mulis. 27 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 3: He reminded them that Erin testified that in the hours 28 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 3: after the lunch, she binge ate a cake that Gail 29 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 3: had brought and forced herself to vomit. He then said 30 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 3: that she told the jury she experienced frequent diarrhea later 31 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 3: that night on July twenty nine, that continued into the 32 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 3: following day. Justice Bill told the jury that she said 33 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 3: she took a modium before or she drove her son 34 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 3: to his flying lesson in ti Ubp but ended up 35 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 3: having to pull over on the side of the road 36 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 3: to go to the toilet in the bushes. She said 37 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 3: she later stopped at a service station and briefly entered 38 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 3: a toilet to throw her soil tissues away. He also 39 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 3: reminded the jury that Erin said she drove herself to 40 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 3: Lee and Gatha Hospital on July thirty one because her 41 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 3: diary was continuing and she wanted to see if they 42 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:25,639 Speaker 3: could give her some fluids. 43 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:30,120 Speaker 2: Justice Bill turned to the arguments by the prosecution. He 44 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 2: said the prosecution claimed that Aaron was not suffering at 45 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 2: all and was feigning deathcat mushroom poisoning because she knew 46 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 2: remaining healthy would give her away. He said the prosecution 47 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 2: also argued that if Aaron had pulled over to go 48 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 2: to the toilet in the bushes, her son would have 49 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 2: remembered such an emergency stop. He added that the prosecution 50 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 2: also questioned why she left hospital after only five minutes 51 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 2: if she was truly unwell. 52 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,239 Speaker 3: Justice Biale said that the defense argued that the prosecution 53 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:09,239 Speaker 3: had unfairly not called an expert witness to testify specifically 54 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 3: about the symptoms of death cap mushroom poisoning. He said 55 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 3: that the defense, though, had pointed to a research article 56 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,919 Speaker 3: referred to during the testimony of doctor Girista Mullis that 57 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 3: said Grade one death cap mushroom poisoning did comprise gastro 58 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 3: like symptoms. Justice Biale said that the defense also argued 59 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 3: that if Erin was lying, about vomiting after the lunch, 60 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 3: she would have told the jury that she threw off 61 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 3: immediately and could see Beef Wellington in her vomit. He 62 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 3: added that the defense suggested that if Erin was also 63 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 3: lying about being unwell, she would not have discharged herself 64 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 3: against medical advice, but would have instead told doctors to 65 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 3: pump her full of drugs to make her story more believable. 66 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 2: Finally, Justice Bill then gave his directions about the topic 67 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 2: of incriminating conduct. He said there were two ways the 68 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 2: jue could use the alleged lies if they found them 69 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 2: to be lies. Here's what he said about the first way. 70 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 2: These are his words, but not his voice. 71 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: The law says that you may use the accused lies 72 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: to help you assess her credibility. If you find that 73 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:19,679 Speaker 1: an accused lied about something, you can use that fact 74 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: to help you decide whether or not you believe the 75 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: other things that the accused has said, whether those are 76 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,359 Speaker 1: things she said to the witnesses in the case or 77 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: to you in her testimony. That is not to say 78 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,599 Speaker 1: just because you find that the accused lied about one matter, 79 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,119 Speaker 1: you must also find that she's been lying about everything else. 80 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 1: But you can use the fact that she lied. If 81 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 1: you find that she did, to help you determine the 82 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: truthfulness of the other things that she has said. 83 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 3: But Justice Beer warned the jury to not reason that 84 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 3: simply because a person has lied, they must be guilty. 85 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 3: He then turned to the second way the jury could 86 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 3: use the alleged lies if they found them to be lie. 87 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: The second way in which you may be able to 88 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 1: use one of the alleged lies which the prosecution relies 89 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: on as incriminating conduct, is as evidence that Aaron Patterson 90 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: committed the charged offenses, in other words, as implied admissions 91 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: of guilt. You may only use evidence that Aaron Patterson 92 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 1: lied in this way if you find that she did 93 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 1: tell a deliberate untruth and that the only reasonable explanation 94 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: for doing so is that she believed she had committed 95 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: the charged offenses. 96 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 3: Justice Beale also gave the jury another warning. He said 97 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,039 Speaker 3: that if they find that Erin lied because she knew 98 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:43,039 Speaker 3: she had committed the offenses charged, they still must consider 99 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 3: the rest of the evidence to decide whether the prosecution 100 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 3: has proved its case beyond reasonable doubt. He also told 101 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 3: the jury that the other alleged incriminating conduct that wasn't 102 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 3: lies could also be used as implied admissions of guilt. 103 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,720 Speaker 3: He then broke down all of the conduct into two sections, 104 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 3: the conduct erin admits and the conduct she does not admit. 105 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 3: When it came to the conduct she admits, Justice Beal 106 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:14,799 Speaker 3: reminded the jury that she accepts that she dumped her dehydrator, 107 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 3: that she left hospital after only five minutes, that she 108 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 3: factory reset phone B, and that she told lies in 109 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 3: her record of interview. When it came to assessing this conduct, 110 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 3: he said, the jury must remember that Aaron told them 111 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 3: that she panicked, that she had a history of hating hospitals, 112 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 3: and that she was using phone B because phone A 113 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 3: was damaged. 114 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 1: In summary, there are all sorts of reasons why a 115 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: person might behave in a way that makes the person 116 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:46,160 Speaker 1: look guilty the accused, and yet not be guilty. 117 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 3: When it came to the conduct she does not admit, 118 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 3: Justice Beal reminded the jury that Aaron denies lying about 119 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 3: using the dried mushrooms in the beef Wellington, lying about 120 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 3: feeding the leftovers to her children, and lying about being unwell, 121 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 3: as well as other allegations put forward by the prosecution. 122 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 2: Justice Bill told the jury that if they find that 123 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 2: Aaron did engage in any of this conduct, they must 124 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 2: consider whether she may have done so because she feared 125 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 2: being wrongly blamed for a deliberate poisoning or losing the 126 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 2: custody of her children. He then turned to the topic 127 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 2: of credit lies. He told the jury that the law 128 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 2: draws a distinction between lies that formed part of incriminating conduct, 129 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 2: which we have just been talking about, and credit lies. 130 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 2: Here's what he said. 131 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:38,559 Speaker 1: Credit lies, on the other hand, may only be used 132 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: for that first purpose in assessing credit of the accused. 133 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: If you were to find that the accused had told 134 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 1: any other lies other than those lies that I've been 135 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: talking about for the last month, whether to persons involved 136 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: in this case or to you in her testimony, you 137 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: may use those lies in assessing her credibility, but only 138 00:07:58,680 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: for that purpose. 139 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 3: Justice Bial flagged that there were four credit lies alleged 140 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 3: by the prosecution. The first, he said, was that Erin 141 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 3: lied to police about being very very helpful during the 142 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 3: Department of Health investigation. Those are the words she told 143 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 3: police during her record of interview. Justice Beale reminded the 144 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 3: jury that the prosecution argued that Erin had not been 145 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 3: very very helpful and knew she hadn't been because she 146 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 3: had not told Senior Public Health Adviser Sally Anne Atkinson 147 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 3: that foraged mushrooms may have accidentally ended up in the 148 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 3: beef Wellington meal. 149 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 2: Justice Bill said he would summarize the defense's argument on 150 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 2: this on Monday. He said he still has a bit 151 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 2: to go with his charge, but he has broken the 152 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:44,559 Speaker 2: back of it. 153 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 3: He told the jury he expected to finish the remainder 154 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 3: of his charge on Monday, before two jurors would be 155 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 3: balloted off and deliberations could begin. But before the jury 156 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 3: left for the day, he instructed them to not let 157 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 3: anybody get in their ear over the weekend and recommended 158 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 3: a media blackout. He then offered some words of encouragement 159 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 3: before they walked out the door. He said they had 160 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 3: been doing a great job and that they should keep going. 161 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 2: Now, just a little note for our listeners, because we 162 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 2: are nearing the end of the trial, we won't have 163 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 2: a subscriber episode on Sunday, but rest assured there will 164 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,319 Speaker 2: be more to come, but for now, go to the 165 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 2: mushroomcook dot com dot au for more