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Sean Aylmer: Welcome  to  the  Fear &  Greed  daily  interview.  I'm  Sean  Aylmer. 

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Sean Aylmer: Purpose  would  have  to  be  one  of  the  top  corporate 

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Sean Aylmer: buzzwords  of  the  last  decade  or  two,  right  up  there 

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Sean Aylmer: with  mission  and  vision  statements  and  things.  But  does  it 

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Sean Aylmer: actually  matter  what  the  purpose  of  your  business  is?  Could 

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Sean Aylmer: your  purpose  just  be  to  make  a  profit?  Ben  Bars 

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Sean Aylmer: is  an  econometrician  who's  helped  some  of  the  world's  biggest 

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Sean Aylmer: brands  define  and  reinvent  themselves,  Mars,  Woolworths,  KFC,  Rolls  Royce, 

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Sean Aylmer: and  Virgin  to  name  a  few.  Ben's  the  CEO  of 

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Sean Aylmer: consulting  agency,  We  Are  Unity.  And  he  says  it's  time 

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Sean Aylmer: to  call  BS  on  purpose.  Ben,  welcome  to  Fear &  Greed.

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Ben Bars: Thanks,  Sean.  Good  to  be  here.

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Sean Aylmer: Over  the last  20  years,  mostly,  I  have  worked  in  big 

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Sean Aylmer: corporates.  I  have  been  to  so  many  sessions  on  purpose 

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Sean Aylmer: and  vision  and  stuff  like  that. Are  you  trying  to  tell 

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Sean Aylmer: me  today  that  maybe  it  wasn't  all  it  was  cracked 

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Sean Aylmer: up  to  be?

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Ben Bars: Well,  look,  it's  an  interesting  way  to  put  it.  But 

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Ben Bars: I  think  it  probably  relates  to  people  putting  lofty  statements 

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Ben Bars: out  there  and  not  really  doing  much  with  them.  I 

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Ben Bars: think  with  things  like  purpose  and  vision,  it's  about  intent. 

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Ben Bars: It's  about  action.  It's  about  measurable,  tangible  planning,  as  opposed 

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Ben Bars: to  just  putting  some  feel- good  stuff  out  there  and 

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Ben Bars: hoping  that  that  provides  some  sort  of  value.

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Sean Aylmer: Okay,  so  should  a  company  actually  define  its  purpose,  spend 

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Sean Aylmer: time  defining  its  purpose?  That's  the  first  part  of  the 

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Sean Aylmer: question.  But  then,  I  suppose,  the  second  part  is,  if 

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Sean Aylmer: it's  not  going  to,  then  just  put  it  in  a 

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Sean Aylmer: drawer.  They  need  to  actually  do  something  about  it.

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Ben Bars: Yeah. So it's all good and well having a purpose,

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Ben Bars: but how are you using it? And I think, since COVID,

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Ben Bars: it's really accelerated the need for purpose in many ways.

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Ben Bars: Most of Australians were sitting at home, behind a camera,

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Ben Bars: wondering whether life was fulfilling and what they did had meaning.

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Ben Bars: And that put a lot of pressure on corporates through

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Ben Bars: the great resignation, et cetera. And it forced organisations to

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Ben Bars: really take a good hard look at why they exist,

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Ben Bars: and why that matters, and what role they play. Because

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Ben Bars: not just employees, but equally consumers, I think customers are

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Ben Bars: six times more likely to buy from a purpose-driven organisation.

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Ben Bars: And so health pressures with COVID, economic pressures as a result,

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Ben Bars: et cetera, have really put purpose and culture front and

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Ben Bars: center for most of corporate Australia.

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Sean Aylmer: So when we're talking about purpose, I think I know

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Sean Aylmer: what you're talking about, but just describe to me what you're...

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Sean Aylmer: So when you go and work for one of these

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Sean Aylmer: big organisations, what are they asking you to help them with?

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Ben Bars: Yeah, so I think the best way to look at

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Ben Bars: it is getting really clear on why you exist. Not

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Ben Bars: what you do, but why you exist. And the reason

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Ben Bars: that's important is because if you understand why you exist,

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Ben Bars: you can provide your stakeholders... So that means shareholders, that

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Ben Bars: means investors, that means government regulators, that means customers, employees,

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Ben Bars: et cetera. You can provide those stakeholders with context for

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Ben Bars: the decisions that you make. And that's really important because,

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Ben Bars: without context, people can't appreciate, acknowledge, or support the decisions

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Ben Bars: you're making. And that purpose, that reason for existing, that's

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Ben Bars: really quite timeless. And it sets a foundation for a

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Ben Bars: company's focus and future direction. Most of the Australian organisations

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Ben Bars: are very short-term focused. So what that means is they're

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Ben Bars: geared towards operational efficiency. And that behaviour is all about

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Ben Bars: cost minimisation as opposed to investing for the future. And

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Ben Bars: as we've seen, Australia's innovation index has really dropped off,

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Ben Bars: compared to a lot of other companies around the world.

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Ben Bars: And that's because we're not consciously self disrupting and remaining relevant.

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Ben Bars: And so when you've got a strong purpose, and everyone's

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Ben Bars: clear on why you exist, it really sets a more

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Ben Bars: meaningful foundation for the future focus of the business, its strategy,

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Ben Bars: its brand, its culture. It's core to everything else. And, unfortunately,

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Ben Bars: most of those components, brand, culture, strategy, get designed in isolation

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Ben Bars: in most of corporate Australia. And that's why they don't work together.

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Sean Aylmer: It is okay then to have a purpose to make money.

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Sean Aylmer: That's not bad that your purpose is to make money.

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Sean Aylmer: Because what flows from that, the behaviours and culture and

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Sean Aylmer: all that, if it flows from that, may be quite

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Sean Aylmer: impressive how that works. But my question is, can you

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Sean Aylmer: just have that purpose of, the main purpose is to

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Sean Aylmer: make money?

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Ben Bars: Yeah,  look,  if  that's  your  purpose,  and  some  of  the 

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Ben Bars: banks  might  lean  into  that  purpose  quite  specifically,  but  at 

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Ben Bars: least  they're  clear  on  why  they  exist.  And  if  the 

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Ben Bars: reason  they  exist  is  to  make  money,  then  that's  how 

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Ben Bars: they  make  decisions.  That's  how  they'll  design  their  culture.  And 

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Ben Bars: that's  what  they'll  build  and  design  their  brand  around  being 

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Ben Bars: known  for. And  if  they're  okay  with  that,  and  their  shareholders 

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Ben Bars: are  okay  with  that,  then,  absolutely,  that's  what  they  should 

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Ben Bars: stand  for.  I  think  it's  just  being  clear  on  why 

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Ben Bars: you  exist  and  what  you  stand  for,  and  then  everything 

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Ben Bars: else  you  need  to  line  up  behind  that.  And  I 

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Ben Bars: think  there  can  be  some  confusion  around  purpose  being  purpose 

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Ben Bars: for  good.  And  that's  okay  too,  if  that's  why  you 

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Ben Bars: exist.  But  it's  hard  to  do  that  if  you  don't 

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Ben Bars: have  profit  to  support  that  too.  So  I  think  it's 

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Ben Bars: important  to  be  very  clear  on  what  the  intent  of 

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Ben Bars: that  purpose  is  so  that  you  can  ladder  up  all 

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Ben Bars: your  investments  to  it.

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Sean Aylmer: Stay  with  me,  Ben.  We'll  be  back  in  a  minute.


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Sean Aylmer: My  guest  this  morning  is  Ben  Bars,  CEO  of  We 

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Sean Aylmer: Are  Unity.  So  how  does  everything  else,  mission,  values,  that 

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Sean Aylmer: sort  of  thing,  flow  from  purpose?  Once  you've  got  your 

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Sean Aylmer: purpose,  you  know  what  that  is,  brand  is  another  thing 

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Sean Aylmer: you  were  talking  about,  how  do  they  flow  from  it?

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Ben Bars: Yeah. So, typically, if you think about purpose as being

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Ben Bars: the why, the next logical thing to work on is the where.

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Ben Bars: Where are we going as a business? And that's typically

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Ben Bars: viewed as vision. And that typically sits in a five to

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Ben Bars: seven year timeline. And the reason for that is to

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Ben Bars: give the company some long-term thinking, and to balance out

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Ben Bars: that short-term behaviour, so that there's a longer term aspiration. And

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Ben Bars: that's something that people, and investors particularly, can get excited about.

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Ben Bars: There's a longer term plan and it's a collective goal.

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Ben Bars: A lot of companies complain that they're struggling with silos

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Ben Bars: and different parts of the organisation working in isolation. And

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Ben Bars: so vision really provides that collective goal and energy. From there,

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Ben Bars: you then need to develop your business strategy. And that's

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Ben Bars: typically sits in a 24 to 36 month timeframe. That's more about prioritisation,

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Ben Bars: decision making, and making the organisation really clear on what

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Ben Bars: we need to do first, next, and last. Once you've

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Ben Bars: got that strategy and the vision and the purpose in place,

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Ben Bars: you can then start focusing on your brand. Which is, actually,

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Ben Bars: what do we want to be known for in the market?

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Ben Bars: And how do we design that? How do we articulate that?

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Ben Bars: How do we bring that to life with our customers

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Ben Bars: and the broader community? And then, the final piece, once

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Ben Bars: you have your purpose, your vision, your strategy, and your

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Ben Bars: brand in place, you need to determine what culture you need.

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Ben Bars: So what we mean by that is, what are the

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Ben Bars: collective mindsets and behaviours in the organisation that will allow

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Ben Bars: that brand to live, and allow the organisation to execute

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Ben Bars: its strategy, deliver on the vision, and live its purpose?

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Ben Bars: And so there's a bit of coordinating to do. And, unfortunately,

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Ben Bars: a lot of these components get designed by different departments

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Ben Bars: at different times. Marketing might be over here working on

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Ben Bars: sales and HR's working on chasing engagement scores. The CFO

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Ben Bars: might be very financially focused on the strategy. And so

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Ben Bars: you get all these different components being designed in different

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Ben Bars: languages by different functions. And so our role is really

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Ben Bars: to look at how do we use purpose to bring

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Ben Bars: some unity and some commercial alignment with all these building blocks.

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Sean Aylmer: Is  there  an  example  you  can  give,  even  if you don't want to name the  company, 

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Sean Aylmer: where  you've  seen  it  done  really  well?  Or  do  most 

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Sean Aylmer: places  not  do  it  well?

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Ben Bars: Yeah, so, look, it's a mixed bag. A lot of

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Ben Bars: our organisations have invested a lot of time in purpose,

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Ben Bars: but have they done much with it? That's the big thing.

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Ben Bars: There was an FMCG company recently, and in the exec

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Ben Bars: meeting they were going to double down on ready to

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Ben Bars: make drinks and that market. And the CFO actually raised

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Ben Bars: their purpose in the meeting and said, "Hey, listen, there's

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Ben Bars: a lot of issues with ready to make drinks in

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Ben Bars: the market. We've got age issues. We've got issues in the (Kings)

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Ben Bars: Cross around crime related to alcohol. Do we really want to,

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Ben Bars: as a business, invest in something that's got a lot

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Ben Bars: of negative shadow side?" And with that purpose conversation, the

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Ben Bars: exec team actually ended up doubling down on craft beer instead.

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Sean Aylmer: Right.

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Ben Bars: Yeah.  And  what's  been  interesting  is  the  craft  beer  sector 

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Ben Bars: has  grown  hugely,  and  the  ready  to  make  drinks,  the 

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Ben Bars: RTD  market  has  actually  declined  quite  significantly.  So  it's  really 

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Ben Bars: quite  a  lovely  example  of  an  Australian  company  using  its 

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Ben Bars: purpose  to  guide  its  investment  decision  making,  which  has  really 

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Ben Bars: nicely  paid  off.

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Sean Aylmer: So  I  started  this  conversation  suggesting  we  don't  need  a 

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Sean Aylmer: purpose,  but  what  you're  really  saying  is  everyone  needs  a 

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Sean Aylmer: North  Star.  Everyone  needs  to  understand  the  purpose  because,  then, 

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Sean Aylmer: the  other  decisions  can  come  from  that.

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Ben Bars: Yeah, another way to look at it is just to

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Ben Bars: understand the why. Without context, it's so hard to appreciate

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Ben Bars: any decision, or to make a decision. So if the

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Ben Bars: context is timeless and it is macro, not micro, and

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Ben Bars: you can emotionally connect to it, not just rationally connect

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Ben Bars: to it, you're going to get a lot more buy-in

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Ben Bars: from all the people that need to make that organization successful,

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Ben Bars: whether it's investors, customers, or employees.

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Sean Aylmer: Okay. So, Ben, what's step one? If I'm a company

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Sean Aylmer: listening to this and I think,  "I don't really know

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Sean Aylmer: exactly what the purpose is. Or I do know what

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Sean Aylmer: it is, but I'm not sure that I've told everyone else in the

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Sean Aylmer: company about it." What is step one?

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Ben Bars: Yeah,  right.  Do  you  know  what  best  question  to  start 

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Ben Bars: off  with,  with  the  board  and  the  exec  team,  is 

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Ben Bars: to  actually  have  a  group  discussion  about  what  would  the 

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Ben Bars: world  be  missing  out  on  if  we  didn't  exist?  And 

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Ben Bars: it's  a  hard  question  to  answer.  And  it  really  makes 

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Ben Bars: people  stop  and  think.  But  it's  a  really  important  one, 

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Ben Bars: because  if  you  can't  articulate  it,  then  you're  not  very 

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Ben Bars: convincing  or  confident  in  the  value  of  your  organization.  And 

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Ben Bars: that's  typically  a  really  important  starting  point.  And  so  where 

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Ben Bars: we'd  go  from  there  is  to  actually  interview  different  stakeholders. 

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Ben Bars: So  we'd  interview  investors,  we'd  speak  to  customers,  we'd  speak 

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Ben Bars: to  shareholders,  government  regulators,  employees.  And  actually  have  that  conversation 

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Ben Bars: with  them  to  see  where  the  consistency  is,  where  the 

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Ben Bars: aspiration  is,  the  ambition,  the  emotional  connection  around  why  the 

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Ben Bars: organization  exists.  And  then  we'd  use  that  to  start  distilling 

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Ben Bars: down  what  we  believe  the  reason  for  the  organization's  existence 

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Ben Bars: could  be.  And  then  you  would  start  to  look  at 

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Ben Bars: how  could  that,  as  a  platform,  be  used  to  start 

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Ben Bars: informing  the  decisions  we  make.

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Sean Aylmer: Ben,  I  imagine  companies  with  a  purpose,  at  the  end 

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Sean Aylmer: of  the  day,  they  probably  do  better  than  those  without, 

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Sean Aylmer: just  listening  to  you  talk  that  through.  It  just  makes 

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Sean Aylmer: people  aware  of  why  they're  going  to  work  every  day.

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Ben Bars: Yeah,  that's  right.  And  we've  seen it  with  some  of  the 

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Ben Bars: extreme  brands,  like  Patagonia,  whose  purpose  is  save  the  planet. 

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Ben Bars: But  it  has  a  huge  implication  on  their  price  modeling, 

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Ben Bars: their  supplier  strategy,  and  also  their  customer  loyalty.  And  even 

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Ben Bars: locally,  with  amazing  organizations  like  Woolworth,  who  are  all  about 

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Ben Bars: a  better  tomorrow.  And  the  decisions  they  make  to  line 

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Ben Bars: up  behind  what  that  means  in  their  role  in  society, 

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Ben Bars: beyond  just  being  a  business.  And  we've  actually  ranked  the 

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Ben Bars: ASX 200  based  on  cultural  strength,  looking  at  alignment  to  purpose. 

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Ben Bars: And  what  we've  found  is  that,  out  of  the  ASX 200, 

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Ben Bars: the  companies  that  are  culturally  more  purpose  led  are  outperforming 

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Ben Bars: the  market  by  29%.

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Sean Aylmer: Wow.  Ben,  thank  you  for  talking  to Fear & Greed.

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Ben Bars: A  pleasure,  absolute  pleasure.

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Sean Aylmer: That  was  Ben  Bars,  Chief  Executive  Officer  of  We  Are 

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Sean Aylmer: Unity.  This  is  the  Fear &  Greed  daily  interview.  Join  us 

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Sean Aylmer: every  morning  for  the  full  episode  of  Fear &  Greed,  Australia's 

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Sean Aylmer: most  popular  business  podcast.  I'm  Sean  Aylmer.  Enjoy  your  day.