Speaker 1: From Schwartz Media. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven AM,
Speaker 1: and I'm here with my new co host, Daniel James.
Speaker 2: Hi, Daniel, Hello, Ruby, Good to be here.
Speaker 3: Daniel. Seven Am.
Speaker 1: Listeners will know you from when you've been a guest
Speaker 1: on the show and also from your excellent coverage of
Speaker 1: the voice, but from today they'll be hearing you as
Speaker 1: the host of seven Am twice a week.
Speaker 2: Yep, that's the plan, and I'm looking forward to gaining
Speaker 2: a deeper understanding of some of the issues that affect
Speaker 2: our listeners during this very tumultuous period in our history.
Speaker 1: Well, it's an exciting time to have you on the
Speaker 1: show and I'm looking forward to your first episode.
Speaker 4: Can you tell me about it.
Speaker 2: We're looking at the climate crisis through the prism of whistleblowing.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of talk on what has been done
Speaker 2: both by big business and by governments around the country
Speaker 2: to address the climate crisis, but whistleblower is actually playing
Speaker 2: an integral role in exposing wrongdoing by big companies and
Speaker 2: in some governments. So we're taking a closer look at
Speaker 2: that and really that whistleblowers are actually an integral part
Speaker 2: of our democracy and there's been a chilling effect on
Speaker 2: them recently through a bunch of legislation, but also a
Speaker 2: number of whistleblower is going to prison. So we look
Speaker 2: at how one can become a whistle blower and the
Speaker 2: impact whistle blowers have on some of our most important issues.
Speaker 1: It's a dangerous but important job and we appreciate people
Speaker 1: doing it.
Speaker 4: It sounds like a great episode.
Speaker 2: Thanks Rebe.
Speaker 3: It's Thursday, July eighteenth.
Speaker 2: Regina Featherstone is a senior lawyer at the Human Rights
Speaker 2: Law Center's Whistleblower Project.
Speaker 5: We started looking back at Australia's history of climate and
Speaker 5: environmental whistle blowers because while this is maybe a new name,
Speaker 5: we know that has a really, really deep and connected
Speaker 5: history of speaking up for our environment.
Speaker 2: Regina has helped write a guide for how to legally
Speaker 2: and safely blow the whistle on climate crimes, big businesses,
Speaker 2: covering up malpractice, greenwashing, biodiversity hazards and more. And in
Speaker 2: doing that she's also looked at examples through history where
Speaker 2: whistleblowing has led to real change.
Speaker 6: In the South Australian desert, this modern village is the
Speaker 6: nerve center of the new Atomic Proving Grounds at Marlinga. Here, scientists,
Speaker 6: technicians and servicemen prepared for a new areas of nuclear
Speaker 6: weapon tests.
Speaker 5: Between nineteen fifty six and nineteen sixty three, the British
Speaker 5: Government used Marilinga in South Australia on unknown country on
Speaker 5: the end of the null Ball plane to test seven
Speaker 5: atomic explosions and engage with hundreds of other nuclear.
Speaker 6: Trials humm who one zero.
Speaker 2: The atomic testing carried out in Australia on behalf of
Speaker 2: the British government is a shameful and often forgotten part
Speaker 2: of Australia's history. At the time of the testing, the
Speaker 2: indigenous communities surrounding the sites went warned of the impacts
Speaker 2: of nuclear fallout known as Pullyu or black mist. Many
Speaker 2: communities close to the test sites were forced off their
Speaker 2: land and the amount of plutonium found at the site
Speaker 2: was far greater than expected.
Speaker 5: While they said that they cleaned it up, we know
Speaker 5: that the Hawk government had a Royal commission into the
Speaker 5: ongoing debris that was left there. What came of that
Speaker 5: was the solution to do a really thorough cleanup, and
Speaker 5: Alan Parkinson was tasked with leading that.
Speaker 6: The partial cleanup of their marrolling atomic bomb test site
Speaker 6: in South Australia was in two parts. The first part
Speaker 6: was to remove soil contaminated with plutonium and buried that
Speaker 6: sol in a very large trench.
Speaker 5: But what happened was we know that they cut corners.
Speaker 5: There were budget cuts that by the time how a
Speaker 5: government came in that this private company was willing to
Speaker 5: use shallow trenches to put plutonium and uranium waste, which
Speaker 5: we know would have caused ongoing effects to the wildlife,
Speaker 5: to the unknew people and to the broader community.
Speaker 6: The after repeated suggestion by the project manager was that
Speaker 6: we should simply bury the hundreds of tons of debris
Speaker 6: contaminated with plutonium, claiming it would be cheaper.
Speaker 5: He was able to speak up and tell Australians that
Speaker 5: what the government was doing wasn't true. They were saying
Speaker 5: it was world's best practice, and we know that it wasn't.
Speaker 5: There were very detailed listings and requirements that came from
Speaker 5: the Royal Commission and they weren't being followed. Parkinson's actions
Speaker 5: show that we know the government is prepared to lie
Speaker 5: and contract out of responsibilit for toxic nuclear waste. I mean,
Speaker 5: that's about as serious as it can get and it's
Speaker 5: really important that those sorts of pieces of wrongdoing come
Speaker 5: to light, that we know how our governments will treat communities,
Speaker 5: their health, their ongoing connection to land.
Speaker 4: If they're going to lie about nuclear waste.
Speaker 5: And so when we started looking into some of the
Speaker 5: whistleblowers who who have really championed this work, we couldn't
Speaker 5: really go past Alan Parkinson, the nuclear engineer.
Speaker 2: And you've obviously chosen to look deeply at climate environmental
Speaker 2: whistle blowers. Why now are we seeing more of this
Speaker 2: type of whistle blowing emerge.
Speaker 4: I think that we're at a really really key moment.
Speaker 4: It's crunch time.
Speaker 5: We've just had the first year above one point five
Speaker 5: degrees across the globe, which we know is that crucial
Speaker 5: line in the sand that we have to mitigate the
Speaker 5: effects of global warming. And so it's a really really
Speaker 5: important time because the government is continuing to push one
Speaker 5: hundred and sixty new coal and gas developments by twenty thirty.
Speaker 5: They've promised a one point five billion dollar subsidy to
Speaker 5: the petrochemical hub if it goes ahead Middle Arm in
Speaker 5: the Northern Territory, and so we need individuals to speak
Speaker 5: up about what is actually happening inside companies, inside the
Speaker 5: government as it relates to climate and environment risk.
Speaker 2: So are there are other recent examples of people blowing
Speaker 2: the whistle when it comes to environmental distruction.
Speaker 5: We've had a lot of people coming forward in the
Speaker 5: last year such that you know, we're extremely busy. There's
Speaker 5: a lot of wrongdoing that needs to be disclosed. We've
Speaker 5: been able to help people give evidence a Senate inquiries
Speaker 5: in relation to greenwashing. We've been able to assist individuals
Speaker 5: to come forward with the truth about biodiversity hazards experts
Speaker 5: in their field. We've had people come forward with disclosures
Speaker 5: of wrongdoing in the fossil fuel industry.
Speaker 4: Senator Pocock, thank you.
Speaker 7: I've got a few photos in a brief statement I'd
Speaker 7: like to table for the committee and then just ask
Speaker 7: a few questions, if that's all right.
Speaker 5: Last year there was the Santos whistleblower who tabled documents
Speaker 5: in Parliament with Senator David Pocock showing that Santos lied
Speaker 5: about the impacts of an oil spill which killed dolphins
Speaker 5: and sea snakes off the coast of Western Australia near
Speaker 5: Varoness Island.
Speaker 7: I might just read a few things while you have
Speaker 7: looked through the document. The tragedy of dolphin carcases amid
Speaker 7: a kilometer wide oil slick should be the story, but
Speaker 7: it's not. The story is Santos's subsequent cover up and
Speaker 7: total disregard for the values they say they hold dear
Speaker 7: values such as accountability and integrity.
Speaker 5: Santos issued a public statement that no harm had come from.
Speaker 7: That spill, despite tens of thousands of LEAs oil in
Speaker 7: the ocean. Santos had not mobilized environmental assessors to the
Speaker 7: island until a week after the incident. They could not
Speaker 7: have known the real scale of impact.
Speaker 2: It was never checked.
Speaker 5: This whistleblower couldn't sit by and allow Santos's lies to.
Speaker 4: Enter out into the public.
Speaker 5: He gave these documents to Senator David Pocock and essentially
Speaker 5: what happened from that was global media coverage. Santos commissioned
Speaker 5: an independent investigation into the spill.
Speaker 4: Their executive bonuses linked to.
Speaker 5: Environmental KPIs were suspended by the Santos board and ultimately
Speaker 5: their bonuses were docked. So that was in their latest
Speaker 5: company report, And that just goes to show that every
Speaker 5: day there might be a worker who sees something that's wrong,
Speaker 5: just an everyday person who is able to call out
Speaker 5: the lies, trigger accountability.
Speaker 4: And effect change.
Speaker 5: If they're able to do that with one of the
Speaker 5: biggest fossil fuel companies in Australia, I think that that's
Speaker 5: hugely important because they can show that these companies aren't
Speaker 5: above the law and that their actions do have consequences.
Speaker 2: But when the consequences are often more severe for the whistleblower,
Speaker 2: how can you do it without repercussions? That's after the break.
Speaker 2: Regina Wivell heard chilling stories or whistleblowers going to jail
Speaker 2: for exposing wrongdoing, sometimes getting harsher penalties than the people
Speaker 2: or organizations actually doing the wrong thing. So just how
Speaker 2: difficult is it to be a whistleblower in this country
Speaker 2: At the.
Speaker 5: Moment, I think whistleblowers are facing a huge challenge.
Speaker 4: The fear of blowing a whistle is really real.
Speaker 5: The chilling effect that recent prosecutions have had can't be understated.
Speaker 1: Former military lawyer David McBride has been sentenced to five
Speaker 1: years and eight months jail in the Act Supreme Court
Speaker 1: for share and classified military documents with journalists.
Speaker 5: You know the recent prosecutions, the imprisonment of David McBride,
Speaker 5: the upcoming trial for Richard Boyle, the Ato whistleblower.
Speaker 8: Boyle tried to help a number of small business owners
Speaker 8: he believed we're being treated unfairly, eventually taking his concerns
Speaker 8: to the media. He now faces the likelihood of a
Speaker 8: criminal trial and potentially along jail sentence, one of several
Speaker 8: high profile prosecutions which highlight the lack of protections for whistleblowers.
Speaker 5: I guess that's why we were set up at the
Speaker 5: Whistleblower Project. We are Australia's first dedicated legal service hoping
Speaker 5: to fill that gap, helping to add that support to
Speaker 5: whistle blowers. We're experts in what we do.
Speaker 4: We know the law.
Speaker 5: We know how to assist clients to make safe, protected
Speaker 5: disclosures and so that they can continue on with their
Speaker 5: lives by making a disclosure, having different accountability mechanisms like
Speaker 5: regulators to review that or courts or whatever it might be,
Speaker 5: having those enforcement mechanisms deal with the wrongdoing, and then
Speaker 5: that person's life isn't ultimately suffering detriment from it. But
Speaker 5: we know that that is a really real consideration, it's
Speaker 5: a huge task to be a whistle blower. I think
Speaker 5: the difference for climate andvironmental whistleblowers compared to other whistleblowers
Speaker 5: that we might have thought about before is that the
Speaker 5: harm that climate and environmental whistleblowers are speaking about is
Speaker 5: harm that is best conceived of in a global scale.
Speaker 5: And while it may be an individual speaking up on
Speaker 5: their own, we know that every climate and environmental whistleblower
Speaker 5: is linked because the harm to the planet is all connected.
Speaker 5: And so with this resource that we've created, the Climate
Speaker 5: and Environmental Whistleblower Guide, we're really hoping to empower people
Speaker 5: from the person who might be driving a truck who
Speaker 5: illegally dumps waste to the person who is responsible for
Speaker 5: crunching the numbers in the data sets of emissions reporting
Speaker 5: to speak up when there's wrongdoing because we need it now.
Speaker 4: More than ever.
Speaker 2: And what amount of evidence does someone need to blow
Speaker 2: the whistle? What do they need to come forward with?
Speaker 5: So they don't really need evidence, They need their experience
Speaker 5: working on the inside of a company or a government body.
Speaker 5: They need to have witnessed some sort of wrongdoing that
Speaker 5: they can identify as being wrong it must be some
Speaker 5: sort of disclosable conduct which could harm the environment, for example, and.
Speaker 4: They just need to disclose it. They don't need to
Speaker 4: gather evidence as such.
Speaker 5: And in fact that's something that we really prioritize as
Speaker 5: an advice point. When people get that legal advice, it's
Speaker 5: really really important that they're empowered with that knowledge. I
Speaker 5: think the first thing that you should think about if
Speaker 5: you want to blow the whistle is what are you
Speaker 5: really hoping to get out of it? Can you affect
Speaker 5: change with your information? And if so, how do you
Speaker 5: get legal advice to try and take that initial step.
Speaker 2: And when it comes to Australia, is we shill blow
Speaker 2: our protection laws? How do you know if what you're
Speaker 2: doing is covered under those laws.
Speaker 5: It's a really really good question, Daniel, because I think
Speaker 5: the laws are confusing.
Speaker 4: We have so many different laws.
Speaker 5: Whether you're working for a private company, you might be
Speaker 5: covered by the Corporations Act, or if you're working for
Speaker 5: the public sector you might be covered by.
Speaker 4: The federal or step legislation.
Speaker 5: So to check if you're covered, what you can do
Speaker 5: is you can go to our legal resource that we've
Speaker 5: just created, the Climate and Environmental whistleblower guide, or you
Speaker 5: can seek legal advice and start to find out that information. Generally,
Speaker 5: all organizations, if you're in the public sector, for example,
Speaker 5: as a public sector entity, you'll have to have whistleblower
Speaker 5: information readily available. Most companies now, big large companies in
Speaker 5: Australia have to have whistleblower procedures and policies readily available,
Speaker 5: and so they're also a really really good place to start.
Speaker 2: The anger around the inaction on climate change in this
Speaker 2: country is reach balling point when it comes to protesting
Speaker 2: climate inaction. We're seeing groups like Extinction Rebellion become even
Speaker 2: more aggressive with their blockades and protests. Do you think
Speaker 2: we're likely to see a sparking climate whistleblowers?
Speaker 4: Look, we know the science.
Speaker 5: We know that what we're meant to do is that
Speaker 5: we're meant to stop the production of new fossil fuels,
Speaker 5: phase our current fossil fuel projects, transition to green and
Speaker 5: sustainable energy projects. Yet we know that that's not what
Speaker 5: the government is doing. And we know that fossil fuel
Speaker 5: developments aren't going to fix the climate crisis. Nor is
Speaker 5: the one individual climate and environmental whistleblower. But together they
Speaker 5: can make a real impact. They can tell the truth
Speaker 5: on numbers of gas emissions which have been significantly underestimated,
Speaker 5: or speak to what is actually happening in government bodies
Speaker 5: as to this development. And so I do think that
Speaker 5: there's huge scope for climate and environmental whistleblowers to make
Speaker 5: an impact, and we're really hoping to encourage them to
Speaker 5: come forward. And we've already seen such fantastic results. We
Speaker 5: have people that we assist just everyday, people doing this work,
Speaker 5: speaking truth to power in the fossil fuel industry, in
Speaker 5: banks superannuation.
Speaker 4: But there's a lot more to be done.
Speaker 2: You're right, Regina, Thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 2: Also in the news today, Australia's top energy regulators estimate
Speaker 2: the country wouldn't be able to get nuclear energy online
Speaker 2: until around twenty fifty. During an industry event, the head
Speaker 2: of the Australian Energy Regulator, Claire Savage, said Australia was
Speaker 2: probably a decade too late to implement nuclear energy as
Speaker 2: recently suggested by the Coalition. And Telstra has been fined
Speaker 2: one point five million dollars for failing to adequately protect
Speaker 2: customers from scams. An investigation by the TALCO watchdog, the
Speaker 2: Australian Communications and Media Authority, found Telstra failed to comply
Speaker 2: with regulations introduced in twenty twenty two unless thousands of
Speaker 2: customers at risk of serious harm. The watchdog did not
Speaker 2: find any evidence of losses directly related to the breachers.
Speaker 2: I'm Daniel James. Thanks for listening. Say you tomorrow.