WEBVTT - How to be a climate whistleblower 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:05.279 From Schwartz Media. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven AM, 0:00:05.320 --> 0:00:07.840 and I'm here with my new co host, Daniel James. 0:00:08.000 --> 0:00:10.120 Hi, Daniel, Hello, Ruby, Good to be here. 0:00:10.440 --> 0:00:11.600 Daniel. Seven Am. 0:00:11.680 --> 0:00:14.200 Listeners will know you from when you've been a guest 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:17.639 on the show and also from your excellent coverage of 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:21.079 the voice, but from today they'll be hearing you as 0:00:21.239 --> 0:00:23.119 the host of seven Am twice a week. 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:25.760 Yep, that's the plan, and I'm looking forward to gaining 0:00:25.800 --> 0:00:28.080 a deeper understanding of some of the issues that affect 0:00:28.120 --> 0:00:31.480 our listeners during this very tumultuous period in our history. 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:33.720 Well, it's an exciting time to have you on the 0:00:33.720 --> 0:00:36.240 show and I'm looking forward to your first episode. 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:37.400 Can you tell me about it. 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:41.559 We're looking at the climate crisis through the prism of whistleblowing. 0:00:41.960 --> 0:00:44.160 There's a lot of talk on what has been done 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:47.240 both by big business and by governments around the country 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:51.440 to address the climate crisis, but whistleblower is actually playing 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:55.520 an integral role in exposing wrongdoing by big companies and 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:59.120 in some governments. So we're taking a closer look at 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:02.800 that and really that whistleblowers are actually an integral part 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:04.920 of our democracy and there's been a chilling effect on 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:08.080 them recently through a bunch of legislation, but also a 0:01:08.160 --> 0:01:10.520 number of whistleblower is going to prison. So we look 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:13.679 at how one can become a whistle blower and the 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:16.520 impact whistle blowers have on some of our most important issues. 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:21.200 It's a dangerous but important job and we appreciate people 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:21.800 doing it. 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:23.160 It sounds like a great episode. 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:26.160 Thanks Rebe. 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:45.600 It's Thursday, July eighteenth. 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:48.960 Regina Featherstone is a senior lawyer at the Human Rights 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:50.960 Law Center's Whistleblower Project. 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:54.840 We started looking back at Australia's history of climate and 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:58.920 environmental whistle blowers because while this is maybe a new name, 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:03.400 we know that has a really, really deep and connected 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:05.920 history of speaking up for our environment. 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:09.120 Regina has helped write a guide for how to legally 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:12.720 and safely blow the whistle on climate crimes, big businesses, 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:17.600 covering up malpractice, greenwashing, biodiversity hazards and more. And in 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:20.280 doing that she's also looked at examples through history where 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:24.920 whistleblowing has led to real change. 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:28.720 In the South Australian desert, this modern village is the 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:33.040 nerve center of the new Atomic Proving Grounds at Marlinga. Here, scientists, 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:36.080 technicians and servicemen prepared for a new areas of nuclear 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:36.840 weapon tests. 0:02:38.240 --> 0:02:41.400 Between nineteen fifty six and nineteen sixty three, the British 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:45.760 Government used Marilinga in South Australia on unknown country on 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:48.040 the end of the null Ball plane to test seven 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:51.600 atomic explosions and engage with hundreds of other nuclear. 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:59.720 Trials humm who one zero. 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:05.320 The atomic testing carried out in Australia on behalf of 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:08.640 the British government is a shameful and often forgotten part 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:12.360 of Australia's history. At the time of the testing, the 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:15.960 indigenous communities surrounding the sites went warned of the impacts 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:20.560 of nuclear fallout known as Pullyu or black mist. Many 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:23.480 communities close to the test sites were forced off their 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:26.600 land and the amount of plutonium found at the site 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:28.119 was far greater than expected. 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:31.240 While they said that they cleaned it up, we know 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:35.080 that the Hawk government had a Royal commission into the 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:38.240 ongoing debris that was left there. What came of that 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:42.320 was the solution to do a really thorough cleanup, and 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:44.840 Alan Parkinson was tasked with leading that. 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:49.520 The partial cleanup of their marrolling atomic bomb test site 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:54.240 in South Australia was in two parts. The first part 0:03:54.600 --> 0:03:59.480 was to remove soil contaminated with plutonium and buried that 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:02.400 sol in a very large trench. 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:07.120 But what happened was we know that they cut corners. 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:09.200 There were budget cuts that by the time how a 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:12.720 government came in that this private company was willing to 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:17.720 use shallow trenches to put plutonium and uranium waste, which 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:20.560 we know would have caused ongoing effects to the wildlife, 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:24.279 to the unknew people and to the broader community. 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:29.400 The after repeated suggestion by the project manager was that 0:04:29.440 --> 0:04:32.880 we should simply bury the hundreds of tons of debris 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:37.320 contaminated with plutonium, claiming it would be cheaper. 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:41.159 He was able to speak up and tell Australians that 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:43.560 what the government was doing wasn't true. They were saying 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:45.760 it was world's best practice, and we know that it wasn't. 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:50.359 There were very detailed listings and requirements that came from 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:54.600 the Royal Commission and they weren't being followed. Parkinson's actions 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:58.120 show that we know the government is prepared to lie 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:03.800 and contract out of responsibilit for toxic nuclear waste. I mean, 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:10.680 that's about as serious as it can get and it's 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:14.120 really important that those sorts of pieces of wrongdoing come 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:17.520 to light, that we know how our governments will treat communities, 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:20.760 their health, their ongoing connection to land. 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:23.280 If they're going to lie about nuclear waste. 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:25.840 And so when we started looking into some of the 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:29.840 whistleblowers who who have really championed this work, we couldn't 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:32.720 really go past Alan Parkinson, the nuclear engineer. 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:37.480 And you've obviously chosen to look deeply at climate environmental 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:40.760 whistle blowers. Why now are we seeing more of this 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:42.520 type of whistle blowing emerge. 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:44.800 I think that we're at a really really key moment. 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:46.200 It's crunch time. 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:49.839 We've just had the first year above one point five 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:53.360 degrees across the globe, which we know is that crucial 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:56.080 line in the sand that we have to mitigate the 0:05:56.080 --> 0:05:59.840 effects of global warming. And so it's a really really 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:03.280 important time because the government is continuing to push one 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:06.880 hundred and sixty new coal and gas developments by twenty thirty. 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:11.200 They've promised a one point five billion dollar subsidy to 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:14.800 the petrochemical hub if it goes ahead Middle Arm in 0:06:14.880 --> 0:06:19.080 the Northern Territory, and so we need individuals to speak 0:06:19.160 --> 0:06:22.919 up about what is actually happening inside companies, inside the 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:25.839 government as it relates to climate and environment risk. 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:28.880 So are there are other recent examples of people blowing 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:31.000 the whistle when it comes to environmental distruction. 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:33.560 We've had a lot of people coming forward in the 0:06:33.640 --> 0:06:37.599 last year such that you know, we're extremely busy. There's 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:40.920 a lot of wrongdoing that needs to be disclosed. We've 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:44.120 been able to help people give evidence a Senate inquiries 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:48.159 in relation to greenwashing. We've been able to assist individuals 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:53.080 to come forward with the truth about biodiversity hazards experts 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:56.880 in their field. We've had people come forward with disclosures 0:06:56.880 --> 0:06:58.760 of wrongdoing in the fossil fuel industry. 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:02.960 Senator Pocock, thank you. 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:05.760 I've got a few photos in a brief statement I'd 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:08.240 like to table for the committee and then just ask 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:09.560 a few questions, if that's all right. 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:14.800 Last year there was the Santos whistleblower who tabled documents 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:18.720 in Parliament with Senator David Pocock showing that Santos lied 0:07:18.800 --> 0:07:21.800 about the impacts of an oil spill which killed dolphins 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:24.560 and sea snakes off the coast of Western Australia near 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:25.480 Varoness Island. 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:27.480 I might just read a few things while you have 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:31.720 looked through the document. The tragedy of dolphin carcases amid 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:34.640 a kilometer wide oil slick should be the story, but 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:38.720 it's not. The story is Santos's subsequent cover up and 0:07:38.720 --> 0:07:41.720 total disregard for the values they say they hold dear 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:44.760 values such as accountability and integrity. 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:48.400 Santos issued a public statement that no harm had come from. 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:51.160 That spill, despite tens of thousands of LEAs oil in 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:55.000 the ocean. Santos had not mobilized environmental assessors to the 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:58.840 island until a week after the incident. They could not 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:01.400 have known the real scale of impact. 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:02.560 It was never checked. 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:06.560 This whistleblower couldn't sit by and allow Santos's lies to. 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:07.600 Enter out into the public. 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:11.840 He gave these documents to Senator David Pocock and essentially 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:15.920 what happened from that was global media coverage. Santos commissioned 0:08:15.920 --> 0:08:18.240 an independent investigation into the spill. 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:20.400 Their executive bonuses linked to. 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:24.920 Environmental KPIs were suspended by the Santos board and ultimately 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:27.840 their bonuses were docked. So that was in their latest 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:31.440 company report, And that just goes to show that every 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:34.679 day there might be a worker who sees something that's wrong, 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:37.679 just an everyday person who is able to call out 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:40.320 the lies, trigger accountability. 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:40.640 And effect change. 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:42.840 If they're able to do that with one of the 0:08:42.840 --> 0:08:46.120 biggest fossil fuel companies in Australia, I think that that's 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:49.800 hugely important because they can show that these companies aren't 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:52.880 above the law and that their actions do have consequences. 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:57.560 But when the consequences are often more severe for the whistleblower, 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:01.800 how can you do it without repercussions? That's after the break. 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:16.400 Regina Wivell heard chilling stories or whistleblowers going to jail 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:20.680 for exposing wrongdoing, sometimes getting harsher penalties than the people 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:24.520 or organizations actually doing the wrong thing. So just how 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:26.600 difficult is it to be a whistleblower in this country 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:26.880 At the. 0:09:26.840 --> 0:09:30.640 Moment, I think whistleblowers are facing a huge challenge. 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:33.720 The fear of blowing a whistle is really real. 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:37.719 The chilling effect that recent prosecutions have had can't be understated. 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:41.560 Former military lawyer David McBride has been sentenced to five 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:44.640 years and eight months jail in the Act Supreme Court 0:09:44.720 --> 0:09:47.880 for share and classified military documents with journalists. 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:52.320 You know the recent prosecutions, the imprisonment of David McBride, 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:56.680 the upcoming trial for Richard Boyle, the Ato whistleblower. 0:09:56.920 --> 0:09:59.559 Boyle tried to help a number of small business owners 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:03.600 he believed we're being treated unfairly, eventually taking his concerns 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:06.720 to the media. He now faces the likelihood of a 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:10.959 criminal trial and potentially along jail sentence, one of several 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:15.640 high profile prosecutions which highlight the lack of protections for whistleblowers. 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:18.280 I guess that's why we were set up at the 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:22.960 Whistleblower Project. We are Australia's first dedicated legal service hoping 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:25.960 to fill that gap, helping to add that support to 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:29.080 whistle blowers. We're experts in what we do. 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:29.960 We know the law. 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:34.079 We know how to assist clients to make safe, protected 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:37.120 disclosures and so that they can continue on with their 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:41.600 lives by making a disclosure, having different accountability mechanisms like 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:45.400 regulators to review that or courts or whatever it might be, 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:49.240 having those enforcement mechanisms deal with the wrongdoing, and then 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:53.840 that person's life isn't ultimately suffering detriment from it. But 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:56.160 we know that that is a really real consideration, it's 0:10:56.200 --> 0:10:58.600 a huge task to be a whistle blower. I think 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:02.479 the difference for climate andvironmental whistleblowers compared to other whistleblowers 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:05.040 that we might have thought about before is that the 0:11:05.080 --> 0:11:08.840 harm that climate and environmental whistleblowers are speaking about is 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:12.640 harm that is best conceived of in a global scale. 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:16.760 And while it may be an individual speaking up on 0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:20.400 their own, we know that every climate and environmental whistleblower 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:23.600 is linked because the harm to the planet is all connected. 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:27.120 And so with this resource that we've created, the Climate 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:31.200 and Environmental Whistleblower Guide, we're really hoping to empower people 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:34.200 from the person who might be driving a truck who 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:39.640 illegally dumps waste to the person who is responsible for 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:43.200 crunching the numbers in the data sets of emissions reporting 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:46.640 to speak up when there's wrongdoing because we need it now. 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:47.040 More than ever. 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:50.400 And what amount of evidence does someone need to blow 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:52.280 the whistle? What do they need to come forward with? 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:57.600 So they don't really need evidence, They need their experience 0:11:57.760 --> 0:12:01.520 working on the inside of a company or a government body. 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:04.840 They need to have witnessed some sort of wrongdoing that 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:07.679 they can identify as being wrong it must be some 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:11.720 sort of disclosable conduct which could harm the environment, for example, and. 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:13.760 They just need to disclose it. They don't need to 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:15.160 gather evidence as such. 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:18.679 And in fact that's something that we really prioritize as 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:21.679 an advice point. When people get that legal advice, it's 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:25.080 really really important that they're empowered with that knowledge. I 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:27.360 think the first thing that you should think about if 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:29.440 you want to blow the whistle is what are you 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:31.920 really hoping to get out of it? Can you affect 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:36.440 change with your information? And if so, how do you 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:39.120 get legal advice to try and take that initial step. 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:41.480 And when it comes to Australia, is we shill blow 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:44.640 our protection laws? How do you know if what you're 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:46.480 doing is covered under those laws. 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:49.000 It's a really really good question, Daniel, because I think 0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:50.520 the laws are confusing. 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:52.160 We have so many different laws. 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:54.560 Whether you're working for a private company, you might be 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:57.280 covered by the Corporations Act, or if you're working for 0:12:57.320 --> 0:12:59.120 the public sector you might be covered by. 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:01.360 The federal or step legislation. 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:04.880 So to check if you're covered, what you can do 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:06.680 is you can go to our legal resource that we've 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:10.080 just created, the Climate and Environmental whistleblower guide, or you 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:14.040 can seek legal advice and start to find out that information. Generally, 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:17.800 all organizations, if you're in the public sector, for example, 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:20.920 as a public sector entity, you'll have to have whistleblower 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:25.800 information readily available. Most companies now, big large companies in 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:30.160 Australia have to have whistleblower procedures and policies readily available, 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:32.760 and so they're also a really really good place to start. 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:37.600 The anger around the inaction on climate change in this 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:41.080 country is reach balling point when it comes to protesting 0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:45.160 climate inaction. We're seeing groups like Extinction Rebellion become even 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:48.520 more aggressive with their blockades and protests. Do you think 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:51.439 we're likely to see a sparking climate whistleblowers? 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:53.360 Look, we know the science. 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:55.000 We know that what we're meant to do is that 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:57.520 we're meant to stop the production of new fossil fuels, 0:13:57.559 --> 0:14:01.080 phase our current fossil fuel projects, transition to green and 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:04.080 sustainable energy projects. Yet we know that that's not what 0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:07.960 the government is doing. And we know that fossil fuel 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:11.000 developments aren't going to fix the climate crisis. Nor is 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:15.360 the one individual climate and environmental whistleblower. But together they 0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:18.280 can make a real impact. They can tell the truth 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:22.280 on numbers of gas emissions which have been significantly underestimated, 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:25.800 or speak to what is actually happening in government bodies 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:33.600 as to this development. And so I do think that 0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:37.200 there's huge scope for climate and environmental whistleblowers to make 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:39.520 an impact, and we're really hoping to encourage them to 0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:43.600 come forward. And we've already seen such fantastic results. We 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:48.040 have people that we assist just everyday, people doing this work, 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:50.800 speaking truth to power in the fossil fuel industry, in 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:52.040 banks superannuation. 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:53.960 But there's a lot more to be done. 0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:59.760 You're right, Regina, Thank you so much for your time. 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:00.440 Thank you. 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:16.440 Also in the news today, Australia's top energy regulators estimate 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:19.520 the country wouldn't be able to get nuclear energy online 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:23.560 until around twenty fifty. During an industry event, the head 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:27.480 of the Australian Energy Regulator, Claire Savage, said Australia was 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:31.080 probably a decade too late to implement nuclear energy as 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:35.000 recently suggested by the Coalition. And Telstra has been fined 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:37.920 one point five million dollars for failing to adequately protect 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:42.160 customers from scams. An investigation by the TALCO watchdog, the 0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:46.280 Australian Communications and Media Authority, found Telstra failed to comply 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:50.200 with regulations introduced in twenty twenty two unless thousands of 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:53.960 customers at risk of serious harm. The watchdog did not 0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:57.080 find any evidence of losses directly related to the breachers. 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:03.480 I'm Daniel James. Thanks for listening. Say you tomorrow.