WEBVTT - How do we feel about Michael Jackson the musical? 

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<v Speaker 1>What do you think can we cancel art? Should we

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<v Speaker 1>cancel art?

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<v Speaker 2>If you talk about canceling artists, generally it's a great

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<v Speaker 2>loss to culture. But also these are important conversations to have.

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<v Speaker 1>The Michael Jackson Musical is here, and so are some

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<v Speaker 1>big questions. Jackson was definitely a genius. He was the

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<v Speaker 1>survivor of an abusive childhood, an inspiration for Black Americans,

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<v Speaker 1>a once in a generation performer. He was possibly also

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<v Speaker 1>a pedophile. So as the joyful and acclaimed stage show

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<v Speaker 1>MJ the Musical arrives in Australia, hot from a Broadway triumph,

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<v Speaker 1>we ask some big questions about the man, his music,

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<v Speaker 1>and where art meets real life. Everybody, let's get start it.

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<v Speaker 1>Where do you want to begin from the top. Bridget

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<v Speaker 1>Cormack is the deputy editor of Review, our Art section

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<v Speaker 1>in the Weekend Australian.

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<v Speaker 2>It was absolutely electric on Broadway. So I went there

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<v Speaker 2>back in twenty twenty two during its premiere run and

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<v Speaker 2>the audience was extremely vocal.

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<v Speaker 1>Don Scar looking for everybudy keep going.

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<v Speaker 2>So you know you had audience members yelling out go Michael,

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<v Speaker 2>sort of chanting things and getting up and dancing in

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<v Speaker 2>their seats. It's impossible not to get swept up in

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<v Speaker 2>the excitement and the energy of these songs, songs that so.

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<v Speaker 1>Many of us grew up with.

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<v Speaker 2>So when I went to New York, I was a

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<v Speaker 2>guest of Michael Castle Group, and now they've bought this

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<v Speaker 2>musical to Australia. I went there on opening night to

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<v Speaker 2>the Sea production, and there was definitely a sense of occasions.

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<v Speaker 2>So there were so many people with sequin jackets on

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<v Speaker 2>and beautiful gowns. At the end there was a standing

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<v Speaker 2>ovation and people getting up to the dance to the

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<v Speaker 2>encore number, which was great.

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<v Speaker 1>So here's what we can say about Michael Jackson the person.

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<v Speaker 1>He was born in nineteen forty eight and rose to

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<v Speaker 1>fame as the ultra gifted child singer in the Jackson

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<v Speaker 1>Five under the hand of his domineering father Joe. Jackson,

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<v Speaker 1>as an adult didn't take part in the culture, he

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<v Speaker 1>was the culture. By his death at the age of

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<v Speaker 1>just fifty in two thousand and nine, Jackson was simultaneously

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<v Speaker 1>celebrated as the greatest performer of his age and someone

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<v Speaker 1>who had transformed our understanding of pop music, and also

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<v Speaker 1>widely regarded as a highly unusual and idiosyncratic person. Allegations

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<v Speaker 1>about sexual abuse had begun a rising in the early

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<v Speaker 1>nineties when a thirteen year old boy said he'd engaged

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<v Speaker 1>in sexual relations with Jackson. Jackson denied the allegations of abuse,

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<v Speaker 1>but reached a multimillion dollar settlement with the boy's family.

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<v Speaker 1>In two thousand and two, Journalist Martin Basheer, who would

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<v Speaker 1>later become notorious for an interview in which he allegedly

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<v Speaker 1>tricked Princess Diana into thinking the royal family was plotting

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<v Speaker 1>against her, aired interview footage where Jackson talked about sharing

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<v Speaker 1>a bed with a twelve year old boy. He was

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<v Speaker 1>charged with multiple counts of child molestation, but was acquitted.

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<v Speaker 1>In the twenty tens. After Jackson's death, two men came forward,

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<v Speaker 1>alleging he'd abused them from as young as seven years

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<v Speaker 1>of age. They tried, unsuccessfully to sue Jackson's estate. In

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<v Speaker 1>twenty nineteen, their allegations were aired in a documentary.

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<v Speaker 3>Nearly a decade after his death. Renewed debate and grutiny

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<v Speaker 3>tonight in the week of the explosive HBO documentary Leaving Neverland,

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<v Speaker 3>where two men claim they were sexually abused by Michael

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<v Speaker 3>Jackson for years, starting when they were just seven and

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<v Speaker 3>ten years old.

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<v Speaker 1>And in twenty twenty six the matter will return to court.

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<v Speaker 2>When I was in New York, we were, as I said,

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<v Speaker 2>guests of Michael Castle Group, and I was there with

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<v Speaker 2>a bunch of journalists, and a couple of the journalists

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<v Speaker 2>on the trip actually refused to go to see the

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<v Speaker 2>music all over there. Personally, I felt, as a journalist,

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<v Speaker 2>I should go and see the musical, to see what

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<v Speaker 2>it's all about and see how it does or doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>grapple with his difficult legacy. In Sydney, people were very

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<v Speaker 2>much there for a good night out. I mean, it's

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<v Speaker 2>the premiere, you know, you've got the red carpet and

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<v Speaker 2>that sort of thing. But as with the friend that

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<v Speaker 2>I attended with, I imagine there were a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>people who went home and said, well, hang on, you

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<v Speaker 2>know what about these allegations. These weren't really dealt with

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<v Speaker 2>in this show at all.

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<v Speaker 1>How did they handle that within the show itself.

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<v Speaker 2>It's interesting that one of the narrative threads throughout the

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<v Speaker 2>work is this MTV film crew who are there to

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<v Speaker 2>get a behind the scenes look of Michael Jackson. Preparing

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<v Speaker 2>for this dangerous world tour, and you know these are journalists,

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<v Speaker 2>So journalists is supposed to uncover the truth, but they

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<v Speaker 2>don't touch on these allegations at all. There is another

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<v Speaker 2>moment in the musical where Michael's facing a throng of

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<v Speaker 2>journalists and one of them says, what about the allegations?

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<v Speaker 2>But that's it, and then the audience kind of is

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<v Speaker 2>left to wonder what allegations are they referring to.

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<v Speaker 1>And what about other aspects of traumaal difficulty in his life?

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<v Speaker 1>His abusive childhood, for example, is that touched upon?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Actually, there's a huge storyline about his relationship with

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<v Speaker 2>his father. So the musical goes back in time and

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<v Speaker 2>looks at his childhood, his time in the Jackson five,

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<v Speaker 2>and how his dad really really pushed him to perfection.

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<v Speaker 2>And so in that sense, Michael kind of internalizes that voice,

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<v Speaker 2>and he's seeking perfection for this upcoming tour. He's spending money,

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<v Speaker 2>he doesn't want to cut corners. He wants everyone to

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<v Speaker 2>be their best. He's even willing to throw Neverland on

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<v Speaker 2>the line to financially save this tour. And I think

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<v Speaker 2>it's that sense of wanting to prove himself to his father.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up, when, if ever, is it okay to cancel

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<v Speaker 1>an artist? In review and throughout your career, you've covered

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<v Speaker 1>all sorts of forms of art and a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>artists who are now being reconsidered. George Orwell, for example,

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<v Speaker 1>is the subject of a best selling book which reveals

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<v Speaker 1>that he was kind of a creep to his wife.

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<v Speaker 1>We've seen the same thing happen to Charles Dickens. We

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<v Speaker 1>talk a lot about cancel culture, how it's very easy

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<v Speaker 1>now for someone like a comedian to be canceled and

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<v Speaker 1>kind of wiped from the culture. What's your sense of

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<v Speaker 1>how Michael Jackson is treated in that context.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I read one interesting review that said, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>audience members kind of need to compartmentalize in order to

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<v Speaker 2>watch something like this, and that remains true. You can't

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<v Speaker 2>dispute that this is fantastic, the fantastic performances. Roman Banks

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<v Speaker 2>is amazing as Michael Jackson. He nails the moonwalk. He

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<v Speaker 2>even gets his accent. I don't know if you can

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<v Speaker 2>you can call it an accent, but you know the

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<v Speaker 2>whispery way that he talks, and you know, these are

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<v Speaker 2>performers at the top of their game and they put

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<v Speaker 2>on a fantastic show. These performers shouldn't be punished for

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<v Speaker 2>what Michael Jackson did or did not do. But you

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<v Speaker 2>also can't ignore these allegations. It's something that sort of

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<v Speaker 2>sits in the back of your mind. If you talk

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<v Speaker 2>about canceling artists generally, it's a great loss to culture,

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<v Speaker 2>but also what happens to the conversations that we're having.

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<v Speaker 2>These are important conversations to have. So you know, you

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<v Speaker 2>watch something like MJ and you go home and you

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<v Speaker 2>have really important conversations about it and what does this

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<v Speaker 2>art mean? And you know, is it okay that that

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<v Speaker 2>I had a good experience, that I enjoyed this, So

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<v Speaker 2>I think it deserves its audience.

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<v Speaker 1>It's interesting about the passage of time, isn't it thinking

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<v Speaker 1>about say George Orwell. I can appreciate George Orwell's work,

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<v Speaker 1>his art at the same time as feeling like he

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<v Speaker 1>was probably a bit of a misogynous prick, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>And that doesn't mean that I don't want to read

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<v Speaker 1>Down and Out in Paris and London or think about

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<v Speaker 1>animal farm. Same with Charles Dickens. I'm fine with a

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<v Speaker 1>Christmas Carol or the new adaptation of Oliver Twists, the

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<v Speaker 1>spin off being shot in Australia, The Artful Dodger. It

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<v Speaker 1>feels different about Michael Jackson to me, though, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>it feels so recent, so fresh. Maybe it's because I

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<v Speaker 1>see my own children falling in love with his music

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<v Speaker 1>in the way that I did in the eighties as

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<v Speaker 1>a kid myself. Is this something about the passage of time?

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think that makes a difference.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think some of these allegations against Michael Jackson

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<v Speaker 2>are still in progress, aren't they. So I think that's

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<v Speaker 2>the awkward factor, because we don't know what's going to happen.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, he wasn't convicted when he was alive, but

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<v Speaker 2>we don't know the outcome of these allegations.

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<v Speaker 1>If he were a pedophile. If it is found by

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<v Speaker 1>a court that he did abuse them, the two men

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<v Speaker 1>who accused him in the twenty tens, does that mean

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<v Speaker 1>his musical is unviable? Do you think.

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<v Speaker 2>I think the producers would have to answer some Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>some difficult questions. It's really up to audiences whether this

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<v Speaker 2>is a production that they want to go and see.

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<v Speaker 2>Whether for them the love of his music and the

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<v Speaker 2>artistry of the performers that are on stage. I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know if outweighs the right word, but whether they can

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<v Speaker 2>compartmentalize the other aspects to enjoy what is a good show?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, holding those two things together at once, that this

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<v Speaker 1>person was flawed, but that he was also a genius.

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<v Speaker 1>Does that happen a lot when you're out and about

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<v Speaker 1>seeing you know, great works of art from history?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think if you look at opera, a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of opera productions are quite all the traditional storylines are

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<v Speaker 2>quite misogynistic. I remember going to see Verdes Rigoletta the

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<v Speaker 2>Opera House a couple of years ago and just feeling

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<v Speaker 2>so disgusted by the character of the Duke. Who's this womanizing, misogynist,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, his common refrain actually one of the most

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<v Speaker 2>popular arias that everybody knows and loves. He's sort of

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<v Speaker 2>chanting women are fickle. And I remember going home, I

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<v Speaker 2>had the program book in my hand, and a couple

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<v Speaker 2>of people who had also been at the opera noticed

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<v Speaker 2>it and said.

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<v Speaker 1>How's about the duke?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, he hates women. So there's a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>artworks that I think would fall into this category.

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<v Speaker 1>And for you, did that spoil your enjoyment of Verde's

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<v Speaker 1>beautiful music.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I mean, I still loved the music, but I

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<v Speaker 2>would definitely say the character of the Duke rubbed me

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<v Speaker 2>the wrong way part of the part.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And is it fair to consider the duke as

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<v Speaker 1>a you know, as a woman in twenty twenty five,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, looking with your empowered feminist kind of mindset,

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<v Speaker 1>or do you need to think about him as you

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<v Speaker 1>would have when you were observing that art in the

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<v Speaker 1>era when it was created.

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<v Speaker 2>It's definitely a creature of its time. But there have

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<v Speaker 2>been some opera directors that have chosen to update these

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<v Speaker 2>storylines for these reasons because they don't feel as contemporary

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<v Speaker 2>and we shouldn't be, you know, celebrating art that degrades women.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, what do you think? Can we cancel art? Should

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<v Speaker 1>we cancel art or artists if they've done something terrible?

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<v Speaker 2>I personally am anti cancelation, but I'm definitely pro honest conversations,

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<v Speaker 2>because these conversations are important, whether you're talking about art

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<v Speaker 2>or life, and by canceling something, maybe you lose that

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<v Speaker 2>avenue for having these important conversations. Maybe this is holding

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<v Speaker 2>the perpetrator or alleged perpetrator of such acts accountable because

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<v Speaker 2>we're not forgetting what they've done.

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<v Speaker 1>Bridget Cormack is Deputy editor of Review in the Weekend Australian.

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<v Speaker 1>It's the home of all the best journalism about the arts,

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<v Speaker 1>culture and entertainment. You can check it out anytime at

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<v Speaker 1>the Australian dot com dot au. Thanks for joining us

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<v Speaker 1>on the front. Our team is Jasper Leik, Kristen amiot Let, Sammerglue,

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<v Speaker 1>Tiffany Dimack, Joshua Burton, Stephanie Coombs and me Claire Harvey.