1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,120 Speaker 1: What do you think can we cancel art? Should we 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:03,800 Speaker 1: cancel art? 3 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 2: If you talk about canceling artists, generally it's a great 4 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:12,960 Speaker 2: loss to culture. But also these are important conversations to have. 5 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 1: The Michael Jackson Musical is here, and so are some 6 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:22,959 Speaker 1: big questions. Jackson was definitely a genius. He was the 7 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: survivor of an abusive childhood, an inspiration for Black Americans, 8 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: a once in a generation performer. He was possibly also 9 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: a pedophile. So as the joyful and acclaimed stage show 10 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: MJ the Musical arrives in Australia, hot from a Broadway triumph, 11 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: we ask some big questions about the man, his music, 12 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 1: and where art meets real life. Everybody, let's get start it. 13 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: Where do you want to begin from the top. Bridget 14 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: Cormack is the deputy editor of Review, our Art section 15 00:00:58,040 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: in the Weekend Australian. 16 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 2: It was absolutely electric on Broadway. So I went there 17 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 2: back in twenty twenty two during its premiere run and 18 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:11,680 Speaker 2: the audience was extremely vocal. 19 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: Don Scar looking for everybudy keep going. 20 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 2: So you know you had audience members yelling out go Michael, 21 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 2: sort of chanting things and getting up and dancing in 22 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 2: their seats. It's impossible not to get swept up in 23 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:32,119 Speaker 2: the excitement and the energy of these songs, songs that so. 24 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: Many of us grew up with. 25 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 2: So when I went to New York, I was a 26 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 2: guest of Michael Castle Group, and now they've bought this 27 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 2: musical to Australia. I went there on opening night to 28 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 2: the Sea production, and there was definitely a sense of occasions. 29 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 2: So there were so many people with sequin jackets on 30 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 2: and beautiful gowns. At the end there was a standing 31 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 2: ovation and people getting up to the dance to the 32 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 2: encore number, which was great. 33 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: So here's what we can say about Michael Jackson the person. 34 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: He was born in nineteen forty eight and rose to 35 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 1: fame as the ultra gifted child singer in the Jackson 36 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:33,639 Speaker 1: Five under the hand of his domineering father Joe. Jackson, 37 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 1: as an adult didn't take part in the culture, he 38 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 1: was the culture. By his death at the age of 39 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: just fifty in two thousand and nine, Jackson was simultaneously 40 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: celebrated as the greatest performer of his age and someone 41 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: who had transformed our understanding of pop music, and also 42 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: widely regarded as a highly unusual and idiosyncratic person. Allegations 43 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: about sexual abuse had begun a rising in the early 44 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: nineties when a thirteen year old boy said he'd engaged 45 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: in sexual relations with Jackson. Jackson denied the allegations of abuse, 46 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: but reached a multimillion dollar settlement with the boy's family. 47 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,519 Speaker 1: In two thousand and two, Journalist Martin Basheer, who would 48 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 1: later become notorious for an interview in which he allegedly 49 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 1: tricked Princess Diana into thinking the royal family was plotting 50 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: against her, aired interview footage where Jackson talked about sharing 51 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 1: a bed with a twelve year old boy. He was 52 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: charged with multiple counts of child molestation, but was acquitted. 53 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: In the twenty tens. After Jackson's death, two men came forward, 54 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: alleging he'd abused them from as young as seven years 55 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: of age. They tried, unsuccessfully to sue Jackson's estate. In 56 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, their allegations were aired in a documentary. 57 00:03:56,400 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 3: Nearly a decade after his death. Renewed debate and grutiny 58 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 3: tonight in the week of the explosive HBO documentary Leaving Neverland, 59 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 3: where two men claim they were sexually abused by Michael 60 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 3: Jackson for years, starting when they were just seven and 61 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 3: ten years old. 62 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 1: And in twenty twenty six the matter will return to court. 63 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 2: When I was in New York, we were, as I said, 64 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:22,600 Speaker 2: guests of Michael Castle Group, and I was there with 65 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 2: a bunch of journalists, and a couple of the journalists 66 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 2: on the trip actually refused to go to see the 67 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 2: music all over there. Personally, I felt, as a journalist, 68 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 2: I should go and see the musical, to see what 69 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:41,039 Speaker 2: it's all about and see how it does or doesn't 70 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 2: grapple with his difficult legacy. In Sydney, people were very 71 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 2: much there for a good night out. I mean, it's 72 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 2: the premiere, you know, you've got the red carpet and 73 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 2: that sort of thing. But as with the friend that 74 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 2: I attended with, I imagine there were a lot of 75 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:00,040 Speaker 2: people who went home and said, well, hang on, you 76 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 2: know what about these allegations. These weren't really dealt with 77 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 2: in this show at all. 78 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 1: How did they handle that within the show itself. 79 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 2: It's interesting that one of the narrative threads throughout the 80 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 2: work is this MTV film crew who are there to 81 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:21,839 Speaker 2: get a behind the scenes look of Michael Jackson. Preparing 82 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 2: for this dangerous world tour, and you know these are journalists, 83 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 2: So journalists is supposed to uncover the truth, but they 84 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 2: don't touch on these allegations at all. There is another 85 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 2: moment in the musical where Michael's facing a throng of 86 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 2: journalists and one of them says, what about the allegations? 87 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 2: But that's it, and then the audience kind of is 88 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 2: left to wonder what allegations are they referring to. 89 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: And what about other aspects of traumaal difficulty in his life? 90 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 1: His abusive childhood, for example, is that touched upon? 91 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, Actually, there's a huge storyline about his relationship with 92 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 2: his father. So the musical goes back in time and 93 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 2: looks at his childhood, his time in the Jackson five, 94 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 2: and how his dad really really pushed him to perfection. 95 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 2: And so in that sense, Michael kind of internalizes that voice, 96 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 2: and he's seeking perfection for this upcoming tour. He's spending money, 97 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 2: he doesn't want to cut corners. He wants everyone to 98 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 2: be their best. He's even willing to throw Neverland on 99 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 2: the line to financially save this tour. And I think 100 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 2: it's that sense of wanting to prove himself to his father. 101 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:54,359 Speaker 1: Coming up, when, if ever, is it okay to cancel 102 00:06:54,440 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: an artist? In review and throughout your career, you've covered 103 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: all sorts of forms of art and a lot of 104 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: artists who are now being reconsidered. George Orwell, for example, 105 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: is the subject of a best selling book which reveals 106 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: that he was kind of a creep to his wife. 107 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: We've seen the same thing happen to Charles Dickens. We 108 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: talk a lot about cancel culture, how it's very easy 109 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: now for someone like a comedian to be canceled and 110 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: kind of wiped from the culture. What's your sense of 111 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: how Michael Jackson is treated in that context. 112 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 2: Well, I read one interesting review that said, you know, 113 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 2: audience members kind of need to compartmentalize in order to 114 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 2: watch something like this, and that remains true. You can't 115 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 2: dispute that this is fantastic, the fantastic performances. Roman Banks 116 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 2: is amazing as Michael Jackson. He nails the moonwalk. He 117 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 2: even gets his accent. I don't know if you can 118 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 2: you can call it an accent, but you know the 119 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 2: whispery way that he talks, and you know, these are 120 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 2: performers at the top of their game and they put 121 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 2: on a fantastic show. These performers shouldn't be punished for 122 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 2: what Michael Jackson did or did not do. But you 123 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 2: also can't ignore these allegations. It's something that sort of 124 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 2: sits in the back of your mind. If you talk 125 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 2: about canceling artists generally, it's a great loss to culture, 126 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 2: but also what happens to the conversations that we're having. 127 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 2: These are important conversations to have. So you know, you 128 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 2: watch something like MJ and you go home and you 129 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 2: have really important conversations about it and what does this 130 00:08:56,400 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 2: art mean? And you know, is it okay that that 131 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 2: I had a good experience, that I enjoyed this, So 132 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 2: I think it deserves its audience. 133 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 1: It's interesting about the passage of time, isn't it thinking 134 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: about say George Orwell. I can appreciate George Orwell's work, 135 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,559 Speaker 1: his art at the same time as feeling like he 136 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:33,959 Speaker 1: was probably a bit of a misogynous prick, you know, 137 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 1: And that doesn't mean that I don't want to read 138 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 1: Down and Out in Paris and London or think about 139 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: animal farm. Same with Charles Dickens. I'm fine with a 140 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: Christmas Carol or the new adaptation of Oliver Twists, the 141 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: spin off being shot in Australia, The Artful Dodger. It 142 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 1: feels different about Michael Jackson to me, though, you know, 143 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: it feels so recent, so fresh. Maybe it's because I 144 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: see my own children falling in love with his music 145 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 1: in the way that I did in the eighties as 146 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: a kid myself. Is this something about the passage of time? 147 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: Do you think that makes a difference. 148 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 2: Well, I think some of these allegations against Michael Jackson 149 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 2: are still in progress, aren't they. So I think that's 150 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 2: the awkward factor, because we don't know what's going to happen. 151 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 2: I mean, he wasn't convicted when he was alive, but 152 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 2: we don't know the outcome of these allegations. 153 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: If he were a pedophile. If it is found by 154 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 1: a court that he did abuse them, the two men 155 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: who accused him in the twenty tens, does that mean 156 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: his musical is unviable? Do you think. 157 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 2: I think the producers would have to answer some Yeah, 158 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 2: some difficult questions. It's really up to audiences whether this 159 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 2: is a production that they want to go and see. 160 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 2: Whether for them the love of his music and the 161 00:10:55,679 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 2: artistry of the performers that are on stage. I don't 162 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 2: know if outweighs the right word, but whether they can 163 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 2: compartmentalize the other aspects to enjoy what is a good show? 164 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, holding those two things together at once, that this 165 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: person was flawed, but that he was also a genius. 166 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 1: Does that happen a lot when you're out and about 167 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: seeing you know, great works of art from history? 168 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 2: Well, I think if you look at opera, a lot 169 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 2: of opera productions are quite all the traditional storylines are 170 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 2: quite misogynistic. I remember going to see Verdes Rigoletta the 171 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 2: Opera House a couple of years ago and just feeling 172 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 2: so disgusted by the character of the Duke. Who's this womanizing, misogynist, 173 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 2: you know, his common refrain actually one of the most 174 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 2: popular arias that everybody knows and loves. He's sort of 175 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 2: chanting women are fickle. And I remember going home, I 176 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 2: had the program book in my hand, and a couple 177 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 2: of people who had also been at the opera noticed 178 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:00,599 Speaker 2: it and said. 179 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: How's about the duke? 180 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 2: You know, he hates women. So there's a lot of 181 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 2: artworks that I think would fall into this category. 182 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: And for you, did that spoil your enjoyment of Verde's 183 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: beautiful music. 184 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 2: No, I mean, I still loved the music, but I 185 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 2: would definitely say the character of the Duke rubbed me 186 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 2: the wrong way part of the part. 187 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, And is it fair to consider the duke as 188 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: a you know, as a woman in twenty twenty five, 189 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:36,679 Speaker 1: you know, looking with your empowered feminist kind of mindset, 190 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: or do you need to think about him as you 191 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 1: would have when you were observing that art in the 192 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 1: era when it was created. 193 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 2: It's definitely a creature of its time. But there have 194 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 2: been some opera directors that have chosen to update these 195 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 2: storylines for these reasons because they don't feel as contemporary 196 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 2: and we shouldn't be, you know, celebrating art that degrades women. 197 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, what do you think? Can we cancel art? Should 198 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: we cancel art or artists if they've done something terrible? 199 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 2: I personally am anti cancelation, but I'm definitely pro honest conversations, 200 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 2: because these conversations are important, whether you're talking about art 201 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:30,319 Speaker 2: or life, and by canceling something, maybe you lose that 202 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 2: avenue for having these important conversations. Maybe this is holding 203 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 2: the perpetrator or alleged perpetrator of such acts accountable because 204 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 2: we're not forgetting what they've done. 205 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: Bridget Cormack is Deputy editor of Review in the Weekend Australian. 206 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: It's the home of all the best journalism about the arts, 207 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,959 Speaker 1: culture and entertainment. You can check it out anytime at 208 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 1: the Australian dot com dot au. Thanks for joining us 209 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: on the front. Our team is Jasper Leik, Kristen amiot Let, Sammerglue, 210 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: Tiffany Dimack, Joshua Burton, Stephanie Coombs and me Claire Harvey.